Need Scripture about transfer

[VeridicalAngel]

I am trying to do some research as to why us Pentecostals require a transfer letter or permission to change churches.

Are there scriptures to back this up or is it just a UPC requirement?

[Rose]

We have been attending UPC churches for many years and have moved several times. None of our pastors offered or ever asked for a transfer letter! Granted we have been in our present church for 5 years. When did this letter or permission requirement begin? Curious.

[Praxeas]

I am trying to do some research as to why us Pentecostals require a transfer letter or permission to change churches.

Are there scriptures to back this up or is it just a UPC requirement?
It's not a UPC requirement. It's a bunch of Pastors who demand it and happen to be UPC.

No Scripture for it.

[missourimary]

It is or was part of the UPC manual. So it is the rules. just not all preachers play by them.

There is nothing in the Bible that says 'grow where you're planted' or 'this is where you were born, so this is where you stay'. There are scriptures the UPC uses to say we should stay in one local church. But do thos passages talk about the church as being only one local group that meets in a specific building under one man?

[VeridicalAngel]

Do you know where to find them

[n david]

Source Link (http://pentecostalsofdadeville.com/documents/2012UPCIManual.pdf)

Found this link to the 2012 UPC Manual on Google.

Page 127/128 - under "Obligations" for Membership of local assembly, Article II, Section 2:

(i) To secure, in case of moving, a letter of membership from the former
church, and unite with another church of the same faith as soon as possible.

Section 3:
2. No person being a member of another church in our organization shall be
received as a member into another assembly without a letter of membership.
3. No person desiring to withdraw their membership shall be refused a letter of
membership unless proven guilty of misconduct by confession or conviction.
When said person has made satisfactory restitution to the church they are leaving,
they shall be cleared of all foregoing matters and be ready to be accepted
into the fellowship of a local United Pentecostal Church assembly.

In my 30+ years with the UPC and work with several UPC churches, I've never heard of a UPC Pastor following this requirement. The quotes above are direct from the Manual. While other requirements above and below these have scriptures accompanying, these about the letter of membership do not have any.

[missourimary]

Thanks, NDavid!

VerdicalAngel, the combos I've probably heard most include Heb 10:25 and/or Heb 13:17 and proceed to expound on the authority of the pastor. I wonder how they can preach that way and then praise people like Sis Nona Freeman's mother who moved so frequently during the Depression. And if they believe a person must stay in church to be saved, how can they justify NOT giving a letter of transfer when needed?

Sorry, my internet is limited today so I can't copy/paste the actual verses.

[ILG]

I don't think there are any scriptures for it. We were always taught it was a mandatory thing. Lo and behold, we found out that not everyone does it. Pastors who don't require letters are spoken badly of in quiet circles.

[n david]

Article ii, section 3, paragraph 3 says no one should be denied a letter of membership unless proven guilty of misconduct by conviction/confession. Allegedly a lot of Pastors are guilty of violating that as well, considering all the posts from various members claiming Pastors wouldn't let them leave the church.

[n david]

Thanks, NDavid!

VerdicalAngel, the combos I've probably heard most include Heb 10:25 and/or Heb 13:17 and proceed to expound on the authority of the pastor. I wonder how they can preach that way and then praise people like Sis Nona Freeman's mother who moved so frequently during the Depression. And if they believe a person must stay in church to be saved, how can they justify NOT giving a letter of transfer when needed?

Sorry, my internet is limited today so I can't copy/paste the actual verses.
YW. I was surprised that was in there. I was never licensed or anything by the UPC. I've read bits and pieces here or there of the Manual, but didn't realize this was considered an obligation or somewhat mandatory.

I doubt the majority actually practice this though. It even mentions the "right hand of fellowship," which I thought was just a Baptist thing. :lol

[Praxeas]

It is or was part of the UPC manual. So it is the rules. just not all preachers play by them.

There is nothing in the Bible that says 'grow where you're planted' or 'this is where you were born, so this is where you stay'. There are scriptures the UPC uses to say we should stay in one local church. But do thos passages talk about the church as being only one local group that meets in a specific building under one man?
Do you have a copy of that manual to show this?

[Praxeas]

Source Link (http://pentecostalsofdadeville.com/documents/2012UPCIManual.pdf)

Found this link to the 2012 UPC Manual on Google.

Page 127/128 - under "Obligations" for Membership of local assembly, Article II, Section 2:



Section 3:


In my 30+ years with the UPC and work with several UPC churches, I've never heard of a UPC Pastor following this requirement. The quotes above are direct from the Manual. While other requirements above and below these have scriptures accompanying, these about the letter of membership do not have any.
Thanks. Wow...me either. And it seems rather insincere to demand that when technically we aren't MEMBERS of the UPCI unless we are ordained ministers.

[ILG]

It's one of those control freaky sicknesses that's in the UPC. But before we pastored, it was drilled into us to do this.

[Praxeas]

It's one of those control freaky sicknesses that's in the UPC. But before we pastored, it was drilled into us to do this.

To be fair, we don't know that. This may be a relic of years gone by when a saint left a church and moved to another area and said "Hey, Im one of you. I want to join your church" to some new church/Pastor.

That church and Pastor have no idea if this person really did come from another UPC. They don't know under what circumstances he left and if he was in good standing.

I can see it as a safety precaution for other churches in a day and age when not everyone had a Telephone or we didn't have everyone's number

[missourimary]

To be fair, we don't know that. This may be a relic of years gone by when a saint left a church and moved to another area and said "Hey, Im one of you. I want to join your church" to some new church/Pastor.

That church and Pastor have no idea if this person really did come from another UPC. They don't know under what circumstances he left and if he was in good standing.

I can see it as a safety precaution for other churches in a day and age when not everyone had a Telephone or we didn't have everyone's number

You're right, Prax. We don't know why it started. Has anyone ever tried to change it in the manual? If it only has historic significance surely it would be easier to reword in the manual than issues like video...

How does one pastor determine if a member of another church is in good standing with God, with or without a letter of transfer from a pastor?

[Praxeas]

You're right, Prax. We don't know why it started. Has anyone ever tried to change it in the manual? If it only has historic significance surely it would be easier to reword in the manual than issues like video...

How does one pastor determine if a member of another church is in good standing with God, with or without a letter of transfer from a pastor?
UPC should be renamed UTC.

Unable To Change.

The UPC is slow to change...EVERYTHING. I believe the reason has to do with the legalistic people that ran the org that feared any kind of change as a compromise.

It took forever for them to modernize the Herald. We are dead last to take advantage of the Internet and TV.

Our Tracts, until recently, appeared as though they were from the 1950s.

And most of them have not been re-written. The WAP bibles they sell with the doctrinal inserts are ALL KJV only.

Supposedly they "outlawed" beards and mustaches because of the hippie movement that died in the 70s.

Change is painfully slow in the UPC

[missourimary]

duplicate post-sorry!

[Praxeas]

The problem with the letter deal is, it can be abused by Pastors that don't want a saint to leave

[missourimary]

Yep. Sorry for the duplicate post-I'm on very limited internet tonight.

I'm sure it might be difficult to let someone transfer if they were good friends, useful in service, good tithe payers, popular (might take others with them), or suspicious of wrongdoing.

[shazeep]

Wasn't Paul told not to be a 'preacher of the letters?'

[Dordrecht]

This regulation is just another man made
requirement that worked it's way into the church.

It's not in scripture.

I ran into this last year when I decided to go to another church.
I refused to act on it.

[votivesoul]

It's one of those control freaky sicknesses that's in the UPC. But before we pastored, it was drilled into us to do this.

It could be seen that way, but it also, if followed as an ministerial ethic, can be seen as a high level of protection.

Too many wandering stars hop in and out of local assemblies, with no one knowing who they are or where they came from or why they showed up to begin with. And no one realizes they are wells without water until it's too late.

[votivesoul]

By the way, this isn't an article. Rather, it's under a section called ministerial ethics. It's not required for fellowship. It's merely recommended to help keep unity between ministers.

[missourimary]

It could be seen that way, but it also, if followed as an ministerial ethic, can be seen as a high level of protection.

Too many wandering stars hop in and out of local assemblies, with no one knowing who they are or where they came from or why they showed up to begin with. And no one realizes they are wells without water until it's too late.

IF. But sadly, some have good reason for leaving but don't want to say anything about the situation. So should they be sacrificed in the name of safety? If we believe a person must stay in the church to be saved, how can we limit them in where they attend?

[n david]

By the way, this isn't an article. Rather, it's under a section called ministerial ethics. It's not required for fellowship. It's merely recommended to help keep unity between ministers.
I found the information I posted under "Local Church Government," page 127 and 128 of the 2012 UPCI Manual. I didn't notice before, but now see that it states: "The following is provided as a sample form for the local church government. It is necessary that each church have its own written set of bylaws which have been approved by the local congregation and signed by the local church officials. This is being offered as a guideline for the local church to use in establishing the documents as required by various governmental agencies."

Page 173 has "Ethics (Ministerial) - Not laws to govern but principles to guide."


Striving to be a good minister of the Lord Jesus Christ,
I will constantly prepare myself in body, mind, and spirit.
I will safeguard the good name of the ministry; [I will] speak the truth in love, live honestly, and avoid embarrassing debts.
I will hold as sacred all confidences shared with me.
I will exercise the authority of a spiritual leader rather than that of a dictator.
I will seek to minister rather than to be ministered unto, placing service above salary and personal recognition, and the unity and welfare of the church above my own personal welfare.
I will seek to lead my church to accept its full responsibility for community and world service.
I will seek to build my church without discrediting other churches, soliciting members therefrom, or casting reflection on other ministers.
I will not compete with another minister for a call to a pastorate in an unethical manner.
I will, with my resignation, sever my pastoral relations with any former parishioner and will not make pastoral contacts in the field of another pastor without his or her knowledge and consent.
I will not accept the pastorate of a United Pentecostal Church unless I am in accord with the Articles of Faith and Constitution of the general church body.
Having accepted a pastorate, I will not use my influence to alienate the church or any portion thereof from the fellowship or support of the United Pentecostal Church International. If my convictions change, I will be honorable enough to withdraw.


Nothing about letters there.

Source Link - 2012 UPCI Manual (http://pentecostalsofdadeville.com/documents/2012UPCIManual.pdf)

[ILG]

It could be seen that way, but it also, if followed as an ministerial ethic, can be seen as a high level of protection.


But it doesn't work because half the ministers don't do it. Anyway, I am against it because people should be able to choose.

[KeptByTheWord]

These kind of "transfer" rules are in place, because ultimately, a kingdom is being built, and it is the kingdom of a man in a local church, not God's church. If the spirit of the Lord were operating in each assembly as it should, then a man would not try to hold onto a family and keep them from moving. He is resisting the move because essentially it means part of his paycheck would be leaving too... but if pastors were operating under the knowledge that it is GOD's church, they would have more compassion on those who have to move because of work, family situations, or whatever the case may be.

Unfortunately, the entire church system (not just OP) has bought into the Catholic system where money is at the very root of all evil that goes on. Why would a pastor not want a saint to leave? Most of the time, it is because part of his paycheck would be leaving, and it is a decrease of his kingdom.

If pastors were to understand that they are not building a physical kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom for the Lord, then this problem would not be an issue.

Believe me, the root of the problem most of the time boils right down to the money. I've seen it way too many times.

The exception to this is that there are people who are "wandering souls" who travel around from church to church for various reasons, but again, if the spirit of the Lord was operating in their hearts, and in the ministry as it should, no doubt this would not be a problem, because the Spirit of the Lord would help pinpoint the problem that caused them to wander around, and would center them, and help them find a place where they can worship, minister, and be an effective part of the local congregation.

[n david]

These kind of "transfer" rules are in place, because ultimately, a kingdom is being built, and it is the kingdom of a man in a local church, not God's church. If the spirit of the Lord were operating in each assembly as it should, then a man would not try to hold onto a family and keep them from moving. He is resisting the move because essentially it means part of his paycheck would be leaving too... but if pastors were operating under the knowledge that it is GOD's church, they would have more compassion on those who have to move because of work, family situations, or whatever the case may be.

Unfortunately, the entire church system (not just OP) has bought into the Catholic system where money is at the very root of all evil that goes on. Why would a pastor not want a saint to leave? Most of the time, it is because part of his paycheck would be leaving, and it is a decrease of his kingdom.
If pastors were to understand that they are not building a physical kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom for the Lord, then this problem would not be an issue.

Believe me, the root of the problem most of the time boils right down to the money. I've seen it way too many times.

The exception to this is that there are people who are "wandering souls" who travel around from church to church for various reasons, but again, if the spirit of the Lord was operating in their hearts, and in the ministry as it should, no doubt this would not be a problem, because the Spirit of the Lord would help pinpoint the problem that caused them to wander around, and would center them, and help them find a place where they can worship, minister, and be an effective part of the local congregation.
You're using an incredibly broad brush to paint "Pastors" as evil, money-grubbing, power-hungry, manipulative jerks. I don't believe that was your intent, but that's the way it comes across. "Pastors" are in it for the money, therefore they do all they can to manipulate and control people into staying at their church.

In reality, the "Pastors" you post of are a very very small percentage; while the overwhelming majority are good people who do everything they can to help people, and don't deserve these kind of broad brush accusations.

Not everything is done for sinister reasons. The reason for the inclusion of transfer letters wasn't because greedy, power-mad Pastors wanted to control congregations; else you wouldn't have the verbage (page 128, paragraph 3) which states a transfer letter can only be denied if there is cause by way of confession or conviction.

We should also remember the age and culture when this was included in the Manual. It had everything to do with ethics and nothing to do with money. I wish we could go back in time and see the difference between that era and today. It's really sad.

[KeptByTheWord]

You're using an incredibly broad brush to paint "Pastors" as evil, money-grubbing, power-hungry, manipulative jerks. I don't believe that was your intent, but that's the way it comes across. "Pastors" are in it for the money, therefore they do all they can to manipulate and control people into staying at their church.

In reality, the "Pastors" you post of are a very very small percentage; while the overwhelming majority are good people who do everything they can to help people, and don't deserve these kind of broad brush accusations.

Not everything is done for sinister reasons. The reason for the inclusion of transfer letters wasn't because greedy, power-mad Pastors wanted to control congregations; else you wouldn't have the verbage (page 128, paragraph 3) which states a transfer letter can only be denied if there is cause by way of confession or conviction.

We should also remember the age and culture when this was included in the Manual. It had everything to do with ethics and nothing to do with money. I wish we could go back in time and see the difference between that era and today. It's really sad.

Yes, I should not broad brush, certainly not my intention. But, as to the percentage of those who do this, only God knows, but regardless of how many pastors feel this way... it is a problem, enough that I have experienced it in almost every OP church that I have attended, with the exception of one.

[VeridicalAngel]

We are in Cali and a letter or formal permission is needed. Thank you for all the info. Very helpful.

[VeridicalAngel]

Didn't mean to start a scuffle amongst you all. Just trying to be obedient while trying to stay saved.

[missourimary]

So... I've wondered off and on for some time: what would happen if I cut my hair, put on pants and makeup and some jewelry, moved to another state and walked into a church where no one knows me and no one is connected to my formeer church. I pretend I know no one and nothing, 'pray through' and am baptized. Then I'd be dishonest, but I'd be accepted because I'm a new convert, right? Even if I 'backslid' and 'came back' in another state, it seems I'd be more likely to be allowed to attend in some churches than if I honestly said 'I'm moving here without my pastor's consent.' The churches I know who require a letter also believe a person MUST attend an Apostolic church to be saved. It just seems these two teachings are in conflict.

[Dordrecht]

Posted earlier about people coming in without a reference letter:

And no one realizes they are wells without water until it's too late.

Well, there you go.

You expect everybody to come into
the building to be a tongue talking pentecostal?

Churches are for sinners to come in and to be saved
by the grace and compassion of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's exactly why He went to the cross, for crying out loud.

Do you want your church just to be a "bless me" club for tongue talking
united pentecostals?

Forget about "letters"...I love it when the "unsaved" come in!
The more the better.

[Dordrecht]

So... I've wondered off and on for some time: what would happen if I cut my hair, put on pants and makeup and some jewelry, moved to another state and walked into a church where no one knows me and no one is connected to my formeer church. I pretend I know no one and nothing, 'pray through' and am baptized. Then I'd be dishonest, but I'd be accepted because I'm a new convert, right? Even if I 'backslid' and 'came back' in another state, it seems I'd be more likely to be allowed to attend in some churches than if I honestly said 'I'm moving here without my pastor's consent.' The churches I know who require a letter also believe a person MUST attend an Apostolic church to be saved. It just seems these two teachings are in conflict.

All legalism in my book.

[votivesoul]

I admit it's been going on two years since I read it, so my memory is fuzzy. I must be remembering the word "guideline" and interpreted it as a code of ethics.

Thanks for clearing it up, n david. But according to what you posted, it doesn't look like an article required for continued licensing and fellowship.

So if a local assembly's by-laws require it, then they probably follow through. If not, then not.

[Dordrecht]

Instruction about what a "church" should
be like are in the Book of Acts.

Not in some instruction book written by men.

[Walks_in_islam]

Guess: Probably Vaughn.

Sounds like something that crowd would dream up among themselves.

[Reader]

I found the information I posted under "Local Church Government," page 127 and 128 of the 2012 UPCI Manual. I didn't notice before, but now see that it states....

If it were only there, then one could say it wasn't a rule but merely a suggestion for church by-laws. But it is not.

Article 7, Section 7 & #33 states (Under the "General Constitution" under "Ministry"):

33. No minister affiliated with us shall accept any individual recognized as a member from a church pastored by another United Pentecostal Church International minister without a letter of release or transfer. No minister affiliated with us shall refuse a letter of release or transfer to an individual recognized as a member desiring to withdraw from his or her assembly unless proven guilty of misconduct by confession or conviction prior to his or her request for transfer.

Thanks. Wow...me either. And it seems rather insincere to demand that when technically we aren't MEMBERS of the UPCI unless we are ordained ministers.

If one is a member of an affiliated UPC church, they ARE indeed a member of the UPC & have been since their inception. The simply do not hold positions, nor can they vote, etc. Every prospective UPC minister is supposed to read this manual and if they did, they would stop falsely proclaiming that it is only licensed ministers who hold membership.

Under Article 2 titled "Membership" - Membership in the United Pentecostal Church International shall consist of all ministers and missionaries holding an accredited credential or license, and all members of local assemblies which are affiliated with us, and shall be called “Organization."

We have been attending UPC churches for many years and have moved several times. None of our pastors offered or ever asked for a transfer letter! Granted we have been in our present church for 5 years. When did this letter or permission requirement begin? Curious.

Good question as it was NOT that way in the beginning, so it isn't an old relic from when communication wasn't as easy as today. It does not appear in Manuals from the 50s or as late as 1965. It does appear in the 1986 edition. So somewhere between '65 and '86 it was added.

Even licensed ministers need this letter if they change districts. (Article 7, Section 7) 29. A certificate of transfer shall be issued by the District Secretary for a minister who is leaving his or her home district to establish residence in another district.

Supposedly they "outlawed" beards and mustaches because of the hippie movement that died in the 70s.

To my knowledge, the facial hair has never been mentioned in the Manual.

By the way, this isn't an article. Rather, it's under a section called ministerial ethics. It's not required for fellowship. It's merely recommended to help keep unity between ministers. ....But according to what you posted, it doesn't look like an article required for continued licensing and fellowship.

It is a requirement according to the UPCI. It's under Article 7, the section titled "Section 7. Obligations and Rules"

Some ministers abide by this rule and some do not. I have witnessed both. I have also witnessed tensions between two churches in WV when one pastor allowed a family to attend, who were from the nearby larger church, without the letter. That pastor wasn't happy they were not asked for the letter.

[n david]

I admit it's been going on two years since I read it, so my memory is fuzzy. I must be remembering the word "guideline" and interpreted it as a code of ethics.

Thanks for clearing it up, n david. But according to what you posted, it doesn't look like an article required for continued licensing and fellowship.

So if a local assembly's by-laws require it, then they probably follow through. If not, then not.
Right. At first I thought it was, but it's clearly labeled as a sample or guide, not as an actual organizational requirement.

[Reader]

Right. At first I thought it was, but it's clearly labeled as a sample or guide, not as an actual organizational requirement.

This is incorrect. Please see my first post.

[n david]

This is incorrect. Please see my first post.

Article 7, Section 7 & #33 states (Under the "General Constitution" under "Ministry"):

33. No minister affiliated with us shall accept any individual recognized as a member from a church pastored by another United Pentecostal Church International minister without a letter of release or transfer. No minister affiliated with us shall refuse a letter of release or transfer to an individual recognized as a member desiring to withdraw from his or her assembly unless proven guilty of misconduct by confession or conviction prior to his or her request for transfer.

Do you have a link for this? The link I have is for the 2012 Manual, and I cannot find that article there. This sounds almost word for word the same as the sample guide for a local congregation's constitution, Article 2, Section III.

2. No person being a member of another church in our organization shall be
received as a member into another assembly without a letter of membership.
3. No person desiring to withdraw their membership shall be refused a letter of
membership unless proven guilty of misconduct by confession or conviction.
When said person has made satisfactory restitution to the church they are leaving,
they shall be cleared of all foregoing matters and be ready to be accepted
into the fellowship of a local United Pentecostal Church assembly.

[n david]

Nevermind...found it!

So there are two parts of the Manual addressing this. The first is the Obligation and Rules for licensed ministers; the second is the sample guide for a local church constitution.

[Reader]

That is correct, n david. The latter would mean nothing unless all churches involved had adopted those as their by-laws. However, with it being under the ministerial rules, it is not supposed to be an option. But as with many of the other rules, some ministers follow them and some do not.

[Reader]

Here is a thought in all this. If some ministers pick and choose which parts of the ministerial rules they will abide by and which they will not, then should they expect church members to abide by the rules of the church he pastors? If ministry is to set an example and clearly disregards rules they agreed to follow.....

[votivesoul]

Posted earlier about people coming in without a reference letter:



Well, there you go.

You expect everybody to come into
the building to be a tongue talking pentecostal?

Churches are for sinners to come in and to be saved
by the grace and compassion of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's exactly why He went to the cross, for crying out loud.

Do you want your church just to be a "bless me" club for tongue talking
united pentecostals?

Forget about "letters"...I love it when the "unsaved" come in!
The more the better.

"Wells without water" are not unsaved, non-Spirit filled seekers looking to attend a church. They are false brethren coming in to do damage and lead astray.

Check the reference in Jude.

[missourimary]

"Wells without water" are not unsaved, non-Spirit filled seekers looking to attend a church. They are false brethren coming in to do damage and lead astray.

Check the reference in Jude.

I've never heard that before-it looks like I have some study to do today once the sun is up.

I've never heard that before... but I have heard sincere people who moved to another church or disagreed with the wrong person called that. Kind of like the label 'Jezebel', 'wandering stars' and 'clouds without water' are overused in some circles of Pentecost. A person concerned with whether they need a letter of transfer isn't generally one who is looking for trouble-more likely thtt's a sign that the person wants to do right and doesn't want to cause trouble.

[votivesoul]

I agree that people who seek a letter of transfer are those who, as the saying goes, "leave out the front door", completely copasetic with the church they are departing.

Regarding the clouds without water, note:

Jude 1:4,

4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

From here all the way to the clouds without water/wandering stars (and etc.) Jude never stops talking about the same kind of people.

As he moves into verse 5, he speaks of covenanted people of God, then to angels, and etc. Honest seekers looking to check out a church aren't men creeping in unawares. Honest, but lost people have no hidden agenda.

But the "certain men" are not so. They are spots on the agape feast. Woe is pronounced against them (verse 11). God would never speak a "woe" unto any lost person innocently attending a church service wondering if the whole Christianity thing is for them.

But for false brethren seeking to do harm, yes, such can and do get a "woe unto them" from God.

[Dordrecht]

The only manual I pay attention to starts with a B.

Actually that's not really the truth, I also check my
motorcycle manuals once and awhile.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

We left a church due to some drama. To make a long story short the new pastor rubbed my folks to the wrong way. We were in our new church for months when our new pastor asked my father to get a letter from the old pastor. My dad had to sit in the old pastors office for what seemed like an eternity while he wrote the letter. He said it made him really uncomfortable. At one point the old pastor tried to talk my dad into coming back. SMH