View Full Version : Survival is really the root of all evil
I have personally come to the conclusion that it is not the love of money but rather the need to survive that is really the root of all evil. I save money, like most of us try to do. I do this not to simply amass riches, but due to the survival instinct. Like in the past... prior to winter, people would stock up for the long bleak months when it is cold and there is no food readily available. I may not need the money now, but when I do, it is there.
Money is just a thing, a coin, a piece of paper. You can't eat it. But, if I'm holding onto some food and you are starving and have the will and the means to overpower me and take my food to survive and leave me for dead, then that is the greater root of evil, not something superficial like money.
I disagree. But power and control is. Survival is strong but many have more than enough but it is power and control that drives them.
But power and control is.
But power and control stems from the survival instinct.
But power and control stems from the survival instinct.
How so? If you have everything you need and want how does power and control help you survive?
How so? If you have everything you need and want how does power and control help you survive?
Try giving up your job and living on the streets and eating at a soup kitchen every day. You probably won't do it because then you are giving up power and control of your everyday life.
But, also, even a rich and powerful CEO is going to keep his riches "just in case they are needed" in order to make his business bigger, if the economy takes a hit, pay for legal battles, pay employees, etc.
n david
01-09-2014, 09:57 AM
I have personally come to the conclusion that it is not the love of money but rather the need to survive that is really the root of all evil. I save money, like most of us try to do. I do this not to simply amass riches, but due to the survival instinct. Like in the past... prior to winter, people would stock up for the long bleak months when it is cold and there is no food readily available. I may not need the money now, but when I do, it is there.
Money is just a thing, a coin, a piece of paper. You can't eat it. But, if I'm holding onto some food and you are starving and have the will and the means to overpower me and take my food to survive and leave me for dead, then that is the greater root of evil, not something superficial like money.
The Bible is very clear that the "love of money" is the "root of all evil." It's not even money that's the root of evil. It's the love of money.
Your statement about people stocking up for long bleak months makes Joseph evil for overseeing Egypt's stocking of grain during the lean years. People should be wise and plan for emergencies and lean times.
I also know for a fact that large religious organizations hold onto riches "just in case". Why are they holding on to them? In order to survive.
The Bible is very clear that the "love of money" is the "root of all evil." It's not even money that's the root of evil. It's the love of money.
Your statement about people stocking up for long bleak months makes Joseph evil for overseeing Egypt's stocking of grain during the lean years. People should be wise and plan for emergencies and lean times.
Very true. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be prepared in fact in the proverbs we are encouraged to do so but as the Bible says and you pointed out the love of money is the root of evil.
Very true. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be prepared in fact in the proverbs we are encouraged to do so but as the Bible says and you pointed out the love of money is the root of evil.
Do you love money?
But let's ask this. What is money?
The reason I asked Luke if he loved money is that I'm certain that he has money. We all do. That which you have is something that you love. If you didn't love it, you wouldn't have it.
But let's ask this. What is money?
It is a tool to purchase things.
It is a tool to purchase things.
What is the tool?
Try giving up your job and living on the streets and eating at a soup kitchen every day. You probably won't do it because then you are giving up power and control of your everyday life.
I don't see it this way. Being homeless is often a lifestyle choice. People who choose homelessness want power and control over their time.
I also know for a fact that large religious organizations hold onto riches "just in case". Why are they holding on to them? In order to survive.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to survive or even stocking up for a rainy day that is simply being wise. To love money to the extent that you would do anything for it or to put money first in your life that according to the bible is the root of all evil.
If you love your life you will survive. If you hate your life, you will end it. Because you love your self, you continue living and surviving. Love of self is evil. We are evil, Jesus said so. So, due to love of self, we eat, we live, we survive.
If you love your life you will survive. If you hate your life, you will end it. Because you love your self, you continue living and surviving. Love of self is evil. We are evil, Jesus said so. So, due to love of self, we eat, we live, we survive.
If you love yourself so much that you refuse to hurt at all, you may end your life.
to put money first in your life
The classic American dream.
n david
01-09-2014, 10:28 AM
The reason I asked Luke if he loved money is that I'm certain that he has money. We all do. That which you have is something that you love. If you didn't love it, you wouldn't have it.
That makes no sense whatsoever. :toofunny Just because I have something doesn't mean I love it.
If you love your life you will survive. If you hate your life, you will end it. Because you love your self, you continue living and surviving. Love of self is evil. We are evil, Jesus said so. So, due to love of self, we eat, we live, we survive.
I'm a bit confused here. Are you advocating suicide? That's a serious question. Your statement here makes it appear you're advocating suicide. "Love self" = survive. "Hate your life" = ending it. "Love of self is evil," so to not be evil we kill ourselves? :hmmm
Aquila
01-09-2014, 10:29 AM
I don't believe that the love of money is the root of "all evil". I believe that a better translation can be found in the ESV:
1 Timothy 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
The KJV translation presents the statement in a hyperbolic fashion for emphasis. The actual meaning is that the love of money is the root of "all kinds of evils". And indeed it is. However, the love of various carnal things can serve to be the root of other kinds of evils.
That's my take on it.
n david
01-09-2014, 10:29 AM
But let's ask this. What is money?
Seriously?
The reason I asked Luke if he loved money is that I'm certain that he has money. We all do. That which you have is something that you love. If you didn't love it, you wouldn't have it.
I appreciate the money that i have ( which is not much) and see it as provision from God to meet my families needs. As to the part of you post that i underlined it is not always true. I have gas in my car but i do not love gasoline but i do appreciate what it can do for me. I have bills but i do not love my bills but i appreciate what those bills repersent (except when they taxes :heeheehee ). i have a tiller but i do not love my tiller but i do love working in my garden. My point is that sometimes we have things because we need them and sometimes we have things because we love them.
n david
01-09-2014, 10:32 AM
I don't believe that the love of money is the root of "all evil". I believe that a better translation can be found in the ESV:
1 Timothy 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
The KJV translation presents the statement in hyperbole. The actual meaning is that the love of money is the root of "all kinds of evils". And indeed it is. However, the love of many other carnal things serve to be the root of other kinds of evils.
That's my take on it.
Potato, Potato. IMO, whether it's "all kinds" or "all" is debatable and subjective. Regardless, the love of money is a root of evil. I do agree with the bolded last line....love of other carnal things serve to be the root of other kinds of evils.
If you love your life you will survive. If you hate your life, you will end it. Because you love your self, you continue living and surviving. Love of self is evil. We are evil, Jesus said so. So, due to love of self, we eat, we live, we survive.
The bible says that we are to love God supremely but it never advocates ending our life. We do have a fallen/sinful nature and therefore we are sinful at the core (in that we have a natural propensity to sin and are born sinners) but contrary to popular thought it is not physical death that frees us from carnality rather it is the blood of Jesus.
n david
01-09-2014, 10:36 AM
The bible says that we are to love God supremely but it never advocates ending our life. We do have a fallen/sinful nature and therefore we are sinful at the core (in that we have a natural propensity to sin and are born sinners) but contrary to popular thought it is not physical death that frees us from carnality rather it is the blood of Jesus.
:thumbsup
Money.
Somehow, I knew you were going to say that. But, it seems you don't really have a concept if what money actually is.
Seriously?
Yes, I am not sure Adam understands his own concept.
shazeep
01-09-2014, 11:00 AM
Adam, you make a very prescient statement in your OP that i have a reflection of, but first let me say that very few people, even right now, understand that a dollar is not a tool--like it should be--but is in fact a debt instrument, issued by usury, that makes anyone who uses or owns one implicit in the enslavement. All dollars are issued as debt, at interest.
To your statement--which i see has been somewhat misinterpreted, perhaps; we have a very clear (to me) reflection of this in Scripture, where it is said that one who 'believes until the end' is saved; meaning that all of our testimonies now mean little, if we abandon Christ's message when the going gets tough, and refuse the cross that awaits us. A telling pov, especially in these times, i think.
I have already 'imagined' a scenario wherein 'those who believe until the very end' are those who of course did not physically resist any wrongdoing--even to their women--and have been reduced to...a pretty small group.
Yes, all dollars are issued as debt, with interest.
Labor is what creates an economy though. Money is something that is issued that represents that labor.....more or less. Labor is good. It seems to me that Adam, when he says things like "quit your job.....having a job is having power and control".....that he really doesn't have his own thoughts on this very well rounded out for discussion.
Adam, you make a very prescient statement in your OP that i have a reflection of, but first let me say that very few people, even right now, understand that a dollar is not a tool--like it should be--but is in fact a debt instrument, issued by usury, that makes anyone who uses or owns one implicit in the enslavement. All dollars are issued as debt, at interest.
To your statement--which i see has been somewhat misinterpreted, perhaps; we have a very clear (to me) reflection of this in Scripture, where it is said that one who 'believes until the end' is saved; meaning that all of our testimonies now mean little, if we abandon Christ's message when the going gets tough, and refuse the cross that awaits us. A telling pov, especially in these times, i think.
I have already 'imagined' a scenario wherein 'those who believe until the very end' are those who of course did not physically resist any wrongdoing--even to their women--and have been reduced to...a pretty small group.
The underlined section does not make much sense please explain because it almost seems as though you are advocating allowing wrong to be done to others as we simply stand by and let it happen.
I don't believe that the love of money is the root of "all evil". I believe that a better translation can be found in the ESV:
1 Timothy 6:9-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
The KJV translation presents the statement in a hyperbolic fashion for emphasis. The actual meaning is that the love of money is the root of "all kinds of evils". And indeed it is. However, the love of various carnal things can serve to be the root of other kinds of evils.
That's my take on it.
Sounds more accurate to me than the other black and white statement.
shazeep
01-09-2014, 11:45 AM
The underlined section does not make much sense please explain because it almost seems as though you are advocating allowing wrong to be done to others as we simply stand by and let it happen.
Well, i don't mean to stand by and let it happen; but neither would i (ideally) be interested in shooting anyone doing it. Of course these 'fear' scenarios exist almost completely in our minds, but the point might be what one's correct response should be. We are told that one in certain situations might be 'forgiven,' but this hardly means 'sanctioned.'
I believe that if you 'defended' her, and shot them, you might be forgiven, but you have failed the test.
Well, i don't mean to stand by and let it happen; but neither would i (ideally) be interested in shooting anyone doing it. Of course these 'fear' scenarios exist almost completely in our minds, but the point might be what one's correct response should be. We are told that one in certain situations might be 'forgiven,' but this hardly means 'sanctioned.'
I believe that if you 'defended' her, and shot them, you might be forgiven, but you have failed the test.
Please explain:
Luke 22:36
King James Version (KJV)
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
why would we need a sword if we were never to use it?
shazeep
01-09-2014, 12:09 PM
funny how often that verse is coming up on my radar lately; i've heard it used as a pretty good defense of why we do not seem to have the same spiritual gifts that the Apostles' had...and i have to say that while i don't know (yet), and the meanings of 'sword' and 'purse' here might be spiritual, it obviously was not for self or group defense, as Peter and the ear' demonstrated shortly thereafter?
funny how often that verse is coming up on my radar lately; i've heard it used as a pretty good defense of why we do not seem to have the same spiritual gifts that the Apostles' had...and i have to say that while i don't know (yet), and the meanings of 'sword' and 'purse' here might be spiritual, it obviously was not for self or group defense, as Peter and the ear' demonstrated shortly thereafter?
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you do not hold to aliteral interpretation of scripture but rather more of a spiritualization of scripture.
Do you consider yourself to be a dispensationalist?
shazeep
01-09-2014, 12:17 PM
Yes, all dollars are issued as debt, with interest.
Labor is what creates an economy though. Money is something that is issued that represents that labor.....more or less...Yes, this is what $ is supposed to be; but is not.
Labor is good. It seems to me that Adam, when he says things like "quit your job.....having a job is having power and control".....that he really doesn't have his own thoughts on this very well rounded out for discussion.WELL, POSSIBLY NOT; BUT AS SOMEONE WHO QUIT (oops) working 'jobs' in the system about 5 years ago now, i must wholeheartedly agree with him; and so i'll say that any work one can get that does not pay in dollars is surely good labor; and any job that one gets where they are paid in dollars surely exists chiefly for the profit motive needed to repay the debt, and is polluted by association with it.
An unseen, direct result of issuing dollars as debt is that people die from it.
WELL, POSSIBLY NOT; BUT AS SOMEONE WHO QUIT (oops) working 'jobs' in the system about 5 years ago now, i must wholeheartedly agree with him; and so i'll say that any work one can get that does not pay in dollars is surely good labor; and any job that one gets where they are paid in dollars surely exists chiefly for the profit motive needed to repay the debt, and is polluted by association with it.
I left the workforce this year but I still get paid in dollars. LOL! I think your thinking is a bit off.
An unseen, direct result of issuing dollars as debt is that people die from it.
Issuing dollars as debt as a government is not the problem. The problem is that it is not the government that is issuing dollars as debt...it is the federal reserve and the taxpayers must pay interest on that debt ro PRIVATE BANKERS who create dollars out of thin air for their own personal profit. THAT is what the problem is. If the government cut the private bankers out of the equation and issued the dollars itself in order to expand and contract the money supply that would be a different story.
If a man rapes a woman, is the love of money the root of that evil deed? Is it not, instead, the lust for power over the woman?
The actual meaning is that the love of money is the root of "all kinds of evils". And indeed it is. However, the love of various carnal things can serve to be the root of other kinds of evils.
:thumbsup
Man, you always present a solid analysis of things.
Now, how about this... Wouldn't there be a root evil from which springs the love of money, instead of the love of money being the root?
Timmy
01-09-2014, 01:19 PM
Love of money is the root of some evil. I think selfishness is a better candidate, but not sure even that would cause all evil. That's not the same as self-preservation, by the way.
If a man rapes a woman, is the love of money the root of that evil deed? Is it not, instead, the lust for power over the woman?
Right, Power and control.
Love of money is the root of some evil. I think selfishness is a better candidate, but not sure even that would cause all evil. That's not the same as self-preservation, by the say.
Indeed.
Praxeas
01-09-2014, 02:07 PM
I have personally come to the conclusion that it is not the love of money but rather the need to survive that is really the root of all evil. I save money, like most of us try to do. I do this not to simply amass riches, but due to the survival instinct. Like in the past... prior to winter, people would stock up for the long bleak months when it is cold and there is no food readily available. I may not need the money now, but when I do, it is there.
Money is just a thing, a coin, a piece of paper. You can't eat it. But, if I'm holding onto some food and you are starving and have the will and the means to overpower me and take my food to survive and leave me for dead, then that is the greater root of evil, not something superficial like money.
The bible is correct Adam, being translated the way it should be. It says the LOVE of money is A root of many evils. It does not say money is the root of all evils
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
The bible is correct Adam, being translated the way it should be. It says the LOVE of money is A root of many evils. It does not say money is the root of all evils
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
The KJV is so embedded in my heart and mind from all those years in the UPC, I lose track of the fact that there are many other translations.
But, I think Timmy nailed it. It really boils down to selfishness. And greed is a form of that. And Paul was also pointing to selfishness by talking about the greed for money. And then there's also the Gordon Gekko translation. :heeheehee
Praxeas
01-09-2014, 02:44 PM
The KJV is so embedded in my heart and mind from all those years in the UPC, I lose track of the fact that there are many other translations.
I've been going to a UPC for 30 years and almost never use the KJV...
KeptByTheWord
01-09-2014, 04:42 PM
I've been going to a UPC for 30 years and almost never use the KJV...
aha... and therein lies the root of all evil in your life.... :heeheehee
KeptByTheWord
01-09-2014, 04:46 PM
Issuing dollars as debt as a government is not the problem. The problem is that it is not the government that is issuing dollars as debt...it is the federal reserve and the taxpayers must pay interest on that debt ro PRIVATE BANKERS who create dollars out of thin air for their own personal profit. THAT is what the problem is. If the government cut the private bankers out of the equation and issued the dollars itself in order to expand and contract the money supply that would be a different story.
Excellent economic lesson!
I'm wondering if shazeep is referring to bartering... which is working for something in order to get something else in return, without the exchange of a dollar bill. I would see that as a worthwhile thing to do.
navygoat1998
01-09-2014, 04:47 PM
I've been going to a UPC for 30 years and almost never use the KJV...
Yea but you are one them liberal types. :spit
Praxeas
01-09-2014, 04:53 PM
Yea but you are one them liberal types. :spit
I'm not Liberal nor Conservative.
navygoat1998
01-09-2014, 04:55 PM
I'm not Liberal nor Conservative.
To somebody we are all a conservative or a liberal.
TGBTG
01-09-2014, 05:01 PM
I have personally come to the conclusion that it is not the love of money but rather the need to survive that is really the root of all evil. I save money, like most of us try to do. I do this not to simply amass riches, but due to the survival instinct. Like in the past... prior to winter, people would stock up for the long bleak months when it is cold and there is no food readily available. I may not need the money now, but when I do, it is there.
Money is just a thing, a coin, a piece of paper. You can't eat it. But, if I'm holding onto some food and you are starving and have the will and the means to overpower me and take my food to survive and leave me for dead, then that is the greater root of evil, not something superficial like money.
If a man rapes a woman, is the love of money the root of that evil deed? Is it not, instead, the lust for power over the woman?
And how does the "lust for power and control" translate to survival?
Timmy
01-09-2014, 05:20 PM
I'm not Liberal nor Conservative.
Ah. Lukewarm, then. :lol
navygoat1998
01-09-2014, 05:51 PM
Ah. Lukewarm, then. :lol
:highfive
Excellent economic lesson!
I'm wondering if shazeep is referring to bartering... which is working for something in order to get something else in return, without the exchange of a dollar bill. I would see that as a worthwhile thing to do.
I would see that as worthwhile as well, but it would be very difficult to barter for everything.
Let me throw out a hypothetical situation...
Suppose we are in a scenario where resources have dwindled greatly and people are broken up into groups. These groups have firearms. Group A has little to no food. Group B is well stocked in food. If, after a great battle, Group A kills Group B for the food, is not survival the reason for this evil act of Group A killing Group B?
KeptByTheWord
01-10-2014, 09:24 AM
Let me throw out a hypothetical situation...
Suppose we are in a scenario where resources have dwindled greatly and people are broken up into groups. These groups have firearms. Group A has little to no food. Group B is well stocked in food. If, after a great battle, Group A kills Group B for the food, is not survival the reason for this evil act of Group A killing Group B?
If you are presenting this as a scenario with Christians being in both group A and B, then the group who didn't share what they had with their fellow man would not be following the second commandment of Christ.
KeptByTheWord
01-10-2014, 09:24 AM
I would see that as worthwhile as well, but it would be very difficult to barter for everything.
Very true indeed. In some situations bartering works, but as our society is driven by the $ bill... would be very tough to live off what you could come by through bartering.
If you are presenting this as a scenario with Christians being in both group A and B, then the group who didn't share what they had with their fellow man would not be following the second commandment of Christ.
By not sharing, their survival instincts kicked in--which is the root of that evil deed.
By not sharing, their survival instincts kicked in--which is the root of that evil deed.
But what is money but the representation of the power to purchase and/or have things?
shazeep
01-10-2014, 11:21 AM
I left the workforce this year but I still get paid in dollars. LOL! I think your thinking is a bit off.
Issuing dollars as debt as a government is not the problem. The problem is that it is not the government that is issuing dollars as debt...it is the federal reserve and the taxpayers must pay interest on that debt ro PRIVATE BANKERS who create dollars out of thin air for their own personal profit. THAT is what the problem is. If the government cut the private bankers out of the equation and issued the dollars itself in order to expand and contract the money supply that would be a different story.wow; and you think my thinking is off?
shazeep
01-10-2014, 11:22 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you do not hold to aliteral interpretation of scripture but rather more of a spiritualization of scripture.
Do you consider yourself to be a dispensationalist?No--but i don't know what that means, either...
shazeep
01-10-2014, 11:32 AM
Excellent economic lesson!
I'm wondering if shazeep is referring to bartering... which is working for something in order to get something else in return, without the exchange of a dollar bill. I would see that as a worthwhile thing to do.Well, see that that is what a note that is not issued as a debt instrument--by anyone--is meant to be. All this yack about 'it would be ok if the Gov issued the debt instrument' is completely naive, wadr; "Money issued as debt" is the very best definition of 'slavery' that i can think of! You are robbed every single day that you have a dollar in your pocket; and i would say also complicit in the murders required to keep the $ floating.
Understand (the lesson of Lincoln, first) why a lawful government will never issue a debt instrument, at least 'at interest.' Ever. This exact concept is what lawful governments are formed to combat. It is the reason for the War of 1812. It explains most, if not all, of the last several assassinations. Etc, ad nauseum, yikes.
shazeep
01-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Very true indeed. In some situations bartering works, but as our society is driven by the $ bill... would be very tough to live off what you could come by through bartering.Ah--but a Christian is commanded to 'come out' of that society? Or at least, i took that one literally...and it's as hard as any other new habit, really. Tough the first couple of years, i guess; but the internet has made it pretty easy, actually.
obriencp
01-10-2014, 11:57 AM
very interesting thread. I think I understand where the OP was going.
We've discussed money, love of money, selfishness, and survival instincts.
Money is a tool we all use to get things for survival. If we amass too many things we're considered by many as selfish. But doesn't being selfish stem from a survival instinct to ensure we, individually, survive regardless of what our fellow man is going through?
I wonder if our survival instinct traces back to when man fell and was no longer afforded access to the tree of life? God certainly placed that tree there as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was his plan that man would fall. Was it also his plan that the strong, intelligent, and genetically superior would survive? Otherwise we'd all have died off before Jesus came to redeem us and give us a choice of serving God.
Once salvation was poured out we have the option of: a. seeking out our own means of survival - or - b. seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness. If we choose B, we ultimately deny our survival insticts and trust in God to provide.
^that may be a little far out, but I was thinking out loud regarding survival.
KeptByTheWord
01-10-2014, 01:31 PM
very interesting thread. I think I understand where the OP was going.
We've discussed money, love of money, selfishness, and survival instincts.
Money is a tool we all use to get things for survival. If we amass too many things we're considered by many as selfish. But doesn't being selfish stem from a survival instinct to ensure we, individually, survive regardless of what our fellow man is going through?
I wonder if our survival instinct traces back to when man fell and was no longer afforded access to the tree of life? God certainly placed that tree there as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was his plan that man would fall. Was it also his plan that the strong, intelligent, and genetically superior would survive? Otherwise we'd all have died off before Jesus came to redeem us and give us a choice of serving God.
Once salvation was poured out we have the option of: a. seeking out our own means of survival - or - b. seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness. If we choose B, we ultimately deny our survival insticts and trust in God to provide.
^that may be a little far out, but I was thinking out loud regarding survival.
You know, I guess what you have to say makes sense, and I am beginning to see what Adam was trying to say.
Perhaps the love of money does come from the desire to survive and excel. When we set aside those earthly ambitions to instead trust God, the dollar bill does not seem as important as it did before. Interesting!
KeptByTheWord
01-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Ah--but a Christian is commanded to 'come out' of that society? Or at least, i took that one literally...and it's as hard as any other new habit, really. Tough the first couple of years, i guess; but the internet has made it pretty easy, actually.
How is it working for you, to not live by the almighty $ ?
Esaias
01-10-2014, 01:38 PM
Quite a lot of people do not have anything approaching a 'survival instinct'. I see them all the time at Wal-Mart.
The love of money is the love and desire for the ability to obtain the things that satisfy one's desires. Money means you can buy stuff, things and services. Money means you are respected and not considered a bum or a pauper. Money means you don't have to depend on other people to meet your needs or wants.
The love of money is selfishness, and is the root of all evil - ie selfishness is the root of all things.
Of course, there is a textual/translation issue with the specific passage as well, but...
Well, see that that is what a note that is not issued as a debt instrument--by anyone--is meant to be. All this yack about 'it would be ok if the Gov issued the debt instrument' is completely naive, wadr; "Money issued as debt" is the very best definition of 'slavery' that i can think of! You are robbed every single day that you have a dollar in your pocket; and i would say also complicit in the murders required to keep the $ floating.
Understand (the lesson of Lincoln, first) why a lawful government will never issue a debt instrument, at least 'at interest.' Ever. This exact concept is what lawful governments are formed to combat. It is the reason for the War of 1812. It explains most, if not all, of the last several assassinations. Etc, ad nauseum, yikes.
I completely agree that money issued as debt with interest paid to private bankers is a form of slavery. What are you suggesting in it's place?
shazeep
01-11-2014, 10:18 AM
Do you consider yourself to be a dispensationalist?hmm, the 'doctrine' seems so obvious as to be Law to me; i think i could even find quite a few Scriptures to the affect?
shazeep
01-11-2014, 10:29 AM
wow; and you think my thinking is off?i apologize; but it might help if you consider the possibility that everything we have been taught is wrong, which seems increasingly hard to deny.
Unlike the model of 'Gov as public benefactor' we are fed, my interpretation tells me that satan runs the world, and wants nothing more than to kill us; and is only kept in check. I think 'survival' might very shortly become a bigger topic--and a great test of 'Whoever would keep his life...'
http://bible.cc/luke/17-33.htm
i apologize; but it might help if you consider the possibility that everything we have been taught is wrong, which seems increasingly hard to deny.
Unlike the model of 'Gov as public benefactor' we are fed, my interpretation tells me that satan runs the world, and wants nothing more than to kill us; and is only kept in check. I think 'survival' might very shortly become a bigger topic--and a great test of 'Whoever would keep his life...'
http://bible.cc/luke/17-33.htm
Are you talking to me? Or to someone else?
That's funny, since you have no idea what I think.
shazeep
01-12-2014, 11:37 AM
Yes, apologizing to you; and rather than engaging on the other, maybe it's better to just reload there...
But what is money but the representation of the power to purchase and/or have things?Amen. This is what money is, and dollars are not. Unfortunately, we have a hidden aspect in $, that being that each $ is actually not money, but a debt instrument; a note that is issued as debt, with usury applied up-front.
shazeep
01-12-2014, 12:07 PM
How is it working for you, to not live by the almighty $ ?Well, i won't lie, by societal standards you would most likely consider me a total wreck. I seriously doubt that i could have done it with a family under me, and the family over me completely disapproved for years. It caused a huge shift in my desires, and my perceptions of them. It made conversing with another human at eye level very difficult, as you guys surely noticed. It led me to the somewhat scary conclusion that Adam seems to have arrived at, that Scripture only seems to verify, for those who might think that they can live in that system, and 'prep' their way out of it (although i might have used a different analog to 'survival'). Etc.
shazeep
01-12-2014, 12:24 PM
I completely agree that money issued as debt with interest paid to private bankers is a form of slavery. What are you suggesting in it's place?oh, nevermind then :D
um, as to what i would recommend, i would buy and hold at least a hedge in some cryptocurrency, prolly both BTC and LTC, mostly just to help my families transition into whatever model i deemed more wholesome, that eliminated the dollar. i honestly don't believe that bitcoin will be allowed to supplant satan's monetary system; it is tiny right now, and all cryptocurrencies will prolly get stomped on under some pretext or other when the timing is right, so i wouldn't stay in too long there, either.
Really what i recommend is walking out your front door (with whoever feels led to follow) and never returning, and trusting God to take care of you. But yikes? With some means and a family underneath, i would prolly see that growing one's own food is like printing one's own money, and take steps in that direction--Earthship for a house, goat and chickens out back, permaculture and aquaponics up front or something? You can make most all of it, house included, from discards...
oh, nevermind then :D
um, as to what i would recommend, i would buy and hold at least a hedge in some cryptocurrency, prolly both BTC and LTC, mostly just to help my families transition into whatever model i deemed more wholesome, that eliminated the dollar. i honestly don't believe that bitcoin will be allowed to supplant satan's monetary system; it is tiny right now, and all cryptocurrencies will prolly get stomped on under some pretext or other when the timing is right, so i wouldn't stay in too long there, either.
Really what i recommend is walking out your front door (with whoever feels led to follow) and never returning, and trusting God to take care of you. But yikes? With some means and a family underneath, i would prolly see that growing one's own food is like printing one's own money, and take steps in that direction--Earthship for a house, goat and chickens out back, permaculture and aquaponics up front or something? You can make most all of it, house included, from discards...
Well, knowing about money issued as debt and the effect it has on this country, I have come to some different conclusions than you (maybe). I take a moderate approach. I live in a mortgaged house and have a mortgaged business. We do grow some of our own food, eat venison, are getting solar etc. Rome wasn't built in a day. I see nothing wrong with moderate prepping. People can prepare or survive to the extent of shutting out today for what might happen....or might not...in their lifetimes. If the economy crashes, we are all going down with it. I am a recovering idealist. Life is not perfect. But I intend to get what I can out of it.
shazeep
01-12-2014, 06:44 PM
Well, personally i can't find much to disagree with there--i will say that i have gotten some clues that we are so disconnected from the way God would have us be living that a life of correct action would prolly be incomprehensible to us, me included. I also have to believe that God understands that.
Well, personally i can't find much to disagree with there--i will say that i have gotten some clues that we are so disconnected from the way God would have us be living that a life of correct action would prolly be incomprehensible to us, me included. I also have to believe that God understands that.
Agreed.
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