View Full Version : Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses...
votivesoul
01-18-2014, 02:15 AM
...let every word be established, right?
You will find that in the six times this statement is used in the Bible, several of them have to do with disciplinary judgment against some wrong-doing and the party responsible.
It is made clear, however, that if only one witness comes forward, or if the testimonies of more than one witness against the defendant don't match, the accusation can be turned away as invalid, that is, the entire community of believers can disregard and/or ignore it until such a time as it is fully proven to be true or false.
In the New Covenant era, for those who have received the Holy Spirit, while there may be no physical evidence available against someone, nonetheless, God may and often does, independently verify through the community of believers, that something is amiss.
He impresses on some to pray. Others He gives dreams or visions. Some, He speaks to plainly. Nothing is done in collusion, or with anyone else's foreknowledge. It happens simultaneously. God then leads those with whom He has communicated, to share what He has placed on their hearts, and if it's really from Him, it all comes together and is made plain for all to see and acknowledge.
Additionally, it is often the case that those elders among the community of believers, because of their long steadfast faithfulness to the Creator, are, through age and experience, endowed with much wisdom, and can see a little more clearly into the reality of the Spirit, and can just know, for lack of a better term, when something is off with one of their own.
I say all of that to say this:
Proverbs 9:8-9,
8. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
On a message board like this, the members eventually end up making a community, and in this specific case, a community of believers in the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
It should be expected that since we become just such a community, that there will be times when the Spirit will move upon individual members and elders, indicating to them that something is not right with one of the board's many participants.
God does this because He loves us, and He chastises those He loves because He sees us as His children.
I say all that to now say this:
I highly recommend to all AFF members and even those who lurk and read from the background to consider this: if another member, especially an elder on the forum, calls you out for misbehavior on the board for something they perceive to be un-becoming of a Christian, that you don't assume it's just some random person running their mouths to vent spleen.
It may in fact be the Holy Spirit witnessing against you that your conduct is at odds with God's demands upon your life.
Now, if it's merely one person only, then, as stated, it can be disregarded and ignored (although a check of the spirit is still recommended).
However, if more than one person comes forward, and in sincerity, feels the same thing, and shares it, before you get all puffed up and agitated that someone would dare accuse you, I strenuously urge you to consider your ways, whether or not they are truly of and like the Lord's.
It may be that God is trying to reach you through alternative means since He cannot communicate with you through traditional methods, and in so doing, He is using members of this community to admonish, reprove, or even rebuke you for the way you compose yourself and act here at AFF.
I will give myself as an example.
Here at AFF, I can name two people (while there may be others), who have been saved, faithfully living for the Lord for almost as long as, and in one case, much longer than I've been alive.
Michael the Disciple, if I remember correctly, shared a few months ago that he received the Holy Spirit about 33 years ago. I am but 35 years old. Sister Renee, like a mother to us all, is in her 80's, and has been serving the Lord since before my parents were born.
I hope I am not embarrassing them, but I want to make a point.
We are to point to the people in our communities who are set apart unto God as examples, and so, I wish to do so (See Philippians 3:17).
I look to them as examples of elders who have steadfastly remained in the faith, resisted the enemy, and have likely faced down trials worse and more severe than my own.
We are commanded to revere the "hoary head", i.e. the gray-haired among us, who are elders (Leviticus 19:32).
Indeed, such a "hoary head" is called a crown of glory (Proverbs 16:31).
And so, if either of these two respected elders (or others like them), and ESPECIALLY if both of them should reach out to me on this board, and admonish, reprove, or even rebuke me for my attitude or demeanor (not for a disagreement, but for being disagreeable), then I owe it to the Holy Spirit of God that is within them to submit and humble myself, and take the correction patiently, and earnestly search my own heart and confess and repent of any sin the Lord used them to present to me.
I should not mouth off and give back and kick against the pricks of the Spirit, justifying my bad attitude and carnal ways. To do so, not only defiles me, but also the Holy Spirit, and the community of believers here at AFF.
And if, after a solemn, honest searching of my heart, I still feel the admonishment and etc. was unwarranted, then I will suffer it quietly, for righteousness' sake in accordance with 1 Peter 3:12-17. I don't need to come back with a defense or a retort. I will take it with me to the Lord in prayer and forgive.
My bottom-line in all of this is, let's be the real thing. Let's really be Christlike and obey His Word and those words given to us by God through His Apostles in the Epistles. For if we do, these are the things that will prove to the rest of the world and to each other that we are truly His, and are the people called out for His name, showing the lost and the saved how to live a life that is "void of all offence toward God, and toward men" (Acts 24:16).
Above anything, it is what I most want out of my Christian testimony.
Peace and God bless,
Aaron
KeptByTheWord
01-18-2014, 10:22 AM
Aaron, you have written what the Holy Spirit has prompted you to write, and the spirit of the Lord that you wrote this in, is very evident, as it bears witness in my soul too.
You have singled out two faithful souls here on AFF who, through their posts, love people, and love the Lord. They are not ashamed of Him and are doing their best to be pleasing to the Lord. There are others of course, that I know you did not have time to mention. This is a wonderful community of people, and much can be learned here from each other.
Thank you for writing this for all of us to consider. It is easy to get caught up in a debate, and say things we really did not intend to say, or come across in a way that if it had been said in person, would have been kinder.
This is an excellent reminder of just how careful we must be in dealing with each other, even on an Internet forum, because we are basically a mixed community of believers, and you never know where your words will land, and how they will be received.
It is a timely reminder to recognize the power of our words, and how they speak of us.
The Apostle Paul certainly could never have forseen the advent of internet or a forum. I'm not sure how he would have thought about it. But, that is the avenue today through which information is transmitted, and thus, as believers, we must realize the power that our words have on a public place such as this.
May we all take heed to the verse in Proverbs (which incidentally was the verse I highlighted yesterday on my Proverbs thread!).
Thank you Aaron for stepping out on a limb here, speaking your heart through the unction of the spirit, and may it be a word of caution, spoken in love, to all.
KeptByTheWord
01-19-2014, 09:57 AM
I guess I'm not surprised that no one else has commented thus far...
shazeep
01-19-2014, 10:22 AM
Well, it was very concise!
Amanah
01-19-2014, 10:42 AM
I appreciate, admire, and am inspired by many who post here, but I don't consider this an appropriate place to seek spiritual authority.
This is a public forum and is guided by the following rules, which I do think are very good guidance:
The Ten Commandments of the AFF:
1. Don't argue about basic Apostolic doctrines anywhere except The Debate Room.
2. Don't make fun of any basic Apostolic doctrine or any member who adheres to those doctrines.
3. Treat others with respect. This means no hatefulness, namecalling or verbal attacks.
4. Don't rebuke any other member. This isn't a church, and you aren't anyone's spiritual authority here.
5. Use the report post button to report offensive posts, threads or spam.
6. Don't reveal any other poster's personal information, and don't post private messages unless both parties agree to it.
7. Show respect to the Admin team and all decisions that are made by the team. Do not question Admin actions publicly.
8. Cite sources and don't post more than 30% of any copyrighted material.
9. Don't post anything you wouldn't want your children or Jesus to read.
10. Above all, strive to post material that will be uplifting, positive and thought-provoking. Seek to exhort rather than tear down your fellow posters.
shazeep
01-19-2014, 11:12 AM
Hi, Amanah! And hmm, that #4 thing, ya...
n david
01-19-2014, 12:25 PM
I appreciate, admire, and am inspired by many who post here, but I don't consider this an appropriate place to seek spiritual authority.
This is a public forum and is guided by the following rules, which I do think are very good guidance:
The Ten Commandments of the AFF:
1. Don't argue about basic Apostolic doctrines anywhere except The Debate Room.
2. Don't make fun of any basic Apostolic doctrine or any member who adheres to those doctrines.
3. Treat others with respect. This means no hatefulness, namecalling or verbal attacks.
4. Don't rebuke any other member. This isn't a church, and you aren't anyone's spiritual authority here.
5. Use the report post button to report offensive posts, threads or spam.
6. Don't reveal any other poster's personal information, and don't post private messages unless both parties agree to it.
7. Show respect to the Admin team and all decisions that are made by the team. Do not question Admin actions publicly.
8. Cite sources and don't post more than 30% of any copyrighted material.
9. Don't post anything you wouldn't want your children or Jesus to read.
10. Above all, strive to post material that will be uplifting, positive and thought-provoking. Seek to exhort rather than tear down your fellow posters.
I agree
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 12:33 PM
I appreciate, admire, and am inspired by many who post here, but I don't consider this an appropriate place to seek spiritual authority.
This is a public forum and is guided by the following rules, which I do think are very good guidance:
The Ten Commandments of the AFF:
1. Don't argue about basic Apostolic doctrines anywhere except The Debate Room.
2. Don't make fun of any basic Apostolic doctrine or any member who adheres to those doctrines.
3. Treat others with respect. This means no hatefulness, namecalling or verbal attacks.
4. Don't rebuke any other member. This isn't a church, and you aren't anyone's spiritual authority here.
5. Use the report post button to report offensive posts, threads or spam.
6. Don't reveal any other poster's personal information, and don't post private messages unless both parties agree to it.
7. Show respect to the Admin team and all decisions that are made by the team. Do not question Admin actions publicly.
8. Cite sources and don't post more than 30% of any copyrighted material.
9. Don't post anything you wouldn't want your children or Jesus to read.
10. Above all, strive to post material that will be uplifting, positive and thought-provoking. Seek to exhort rather than tear down your fellow posters.
:thumbsup :thumbsup
I don't feel anyone here is a spiritual authority over my life.
Timmy
01-19-2014, 01:02 PM
:thumbsup :thumbsup
I don't feel anyone here is a spiritual authority over my life.
Are there not members of God's church here? Are not some of them led by the Spirit? Would the Spirit never lead anyone to post something here, perhaps even a chastisement? Couldn't He even lead two or more to post the same thing? Is God not permitted to use this medium for such messages if He wants to?
Timmy
01-19-2014, 01:03 PM
(Of course, we all know what sometimes happens when a prophet of God posts here. :heeheehee)
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 01:42 PM
Are there not members of God's church here? Are not some of them led by the Spirit? Would the Spirit never lead anyone to post something here, perhaps even a chastisement? Couldn't He even lead two or more to post the same thing? Is God not permitted to use this medium for such messages if He wants to?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes - I am sure there are times that has and can happen.
But, I don't seek spiritual authority on a forum. With so many views present, we have to be careful on what we feel is being truly lead by the spirit. Okay, I would take Ferd seriously, probably. :heeheehee
And sometimes people dogpile or gang up on a poster with the same chastisement. Do I always view that as coming from God? Not always.
KeptByTheWord
01-19-2014, 02:03 PM
I don't think that I gleaned from Votivesoul's post that posters here should be "authorities" in my life. Absolutely, no one on this forum is my authority, my husband is. And I certainly don't think that votivesoul was trying to override that. I think he was just pointing out that there can be other people in our lives, and in this scenario, an online forum, who can have something to say to us that can be valuable. I don't think he is saying that "so and so" are our spiritual authorities, more like we should be open to the fact that something a poster has said... may or may not be something we need to hear.
It is up to us to be considerate one to another, even though we may never meet in person... because our words stand to judge us, even those written here on AFF.
Sasha
01-19-2014, 02:11 PM
This is the internet. Anyone can claim to be anything here. While I've met several people on here and spoken to several others on the phone, the ones I haven't had the privilege to have those meetings with are still questionable. LOL!
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 02:23 PM
I don't think that I gleaned from Votivesoul's post that posters here should be "authorities" in my life. Absolutely, no one on this forum is my authority, my husband is. And I certainly don't think that votivesoul was trying to override that. I think he was just pointing out that there can be other people in our lives, and in this scenario, an online forum, who can have something to say to us that can be valuable. I don't think he is saying that "so and so" are our spiritual authorities, more like we should be open to the fact that something a poster has said... may or may not be something we need to hear.
It is up to us to be considerate one to another, even though we may never meet in person... because our words stand to judge us, even those written here on AFF.
Agreed!
This is the internet. Anyone can claim to be anything here. While I've met several people on here and spoken to several others on the phone, the ones I haven't had the privilege to have those meetings with are still questionable. LOL!
:heeheehee :thumbsup
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 02:24 PM
I'm going to prophesy to Tim-may, maybe tomorrow or the next day. :heeheehee
Timmy
01-19-2014, 02:28 PM
I'm going to prophesy to Tim-may, maybe tomorrow or the next day. :heeheehee
Can't wait! :lol
Ooh, is it going to be the date I'll die? That would make a much better countdown (see below) than yet another rapture. Those are boring. :lol
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 02:37 PM
Can't wait! :lol
Ooh, is it going to be the date I'll die? That would make a much better countdown (see below) than yet another rapture. Those are boring. :lol
:hmmm I'll have to fast tonight, after dinner, and reflect on that more. :heeheehee
Timmy
01-19-2014, 03:24 PM
:hmmm I'll have to fast tonight, after dinner, and reflect on that more. :heeheehee
Might have to fast all the way till breakfast. :lol
Pressing-On
01-19-2014, 03:33 PM
Might have to fast all the way till breakfast. :lol
Just ate dinner - I'm on it!!! Ooops, that's Navy's line. :heeheehee
Abiding Now
01-19-2014, 03:37 PM
I go to Internet forums for fellowship and FUN.
Sasha
01-19-2014, 03:42 PM
:hmmm I'll have to fast tonight, after dinner, and reflect on that more. :heeheehee
Every day I fast before breakfast.
Sasha
01-19-2014, 03:43 PM
Might have to fast all the way till breakfast. :lol
Hahaha...great minds...well, not sure you want to be tied in with my mind like that...
Sasha
01-19-2014, 03:44 PM
I go to Internet forums for fellowship and FUN.
I'm often here for the entertainment and create a little of my own as well.
navygoat1998
01-19-2014, 03:48 PM
I'm often here for the entertainment and create a little of my own as well.
I am here to enjoy fellowship and not really to debate. I learn from many on here. I don't have to agree to learn. :thumbsup
Timmy
01-20-2014, 09:36 AM
. . .
Okay, I would take Ferd seriously, probably. :heeheehee
. . .
Don't we all? :lol
votivesoul
01-21-2014, 12:20 AM
Romans 15:14,
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
While I am aware of the rules here, and have nothing to say against them, honestly, what Timmy first responded is still true. We are bound by the indwelling Spirit to one another. The Spirit of God isn't in subjection to the rules here at AFF. God will do what God will do, and if He instructs someone to reach out and admonish another poster, it is to Him we owe our obedience.
We can all debate if such is really from Him or not.
But we don't have to think that only a "spiritual authority" can admonish, reprove, or rebuke. We are our brother's keepers, and if a brother or sister sins against us, we (not anyone else) are supposed to go to them to "...go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone..." (Matthew 18:15). Here, a PM would work perfectly.
Additionally, the Lord said in Luke 17:3,
If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
We do not have to wait around to have a pastoral meeting and counseling session with a spiritual authority. That is not brotherhood, that is lordship, as if only one man can handle it.
What's the point of having elders? The Corinthians were reprimanded for not having anyone sufficiently wise enough to judge a matter (1 Corinthians 6:5).
I venture to say that there are people who post here who are wise enough to judge a matter between a brother or sister, and have the right, through the teachings of Messiah, to admonish, reprove, and even rebuke, without claiming or pretending to be anyone's authority.
Now, maybe that flies in the face of what some believe or have been taught, and I know it doesn't gel with at least one of the "Ten Commandments of AFF", which is fine.
That is why I used myself as an example. I want this community of believers to know that, not because of the rules presented, BUT BECAUSE OF THE SCRIPTURES, that I am accountable to God to honor my elders and submit myself to them as a younger man, not just in age but also in spirit (1 Peter 5:5).
I am letting everyone know, even if they don't agree, that people like Michael and Renee (and others who fit the bill) have the Biblical right from God Himself to speak to my shame, as Paul my write, if I am out of line.
"Open rebuke is better than secret love" (Proverbs 25:7). Too much can happen in secret on a message board and the internet in general. For this very reason, I am opening myself here to open rebuke, affirming to one and all, and thus being accountable to the entire community, that I am not above correction, and must submit myself to the community's discipline, should it ever come about.
By posting this publicly for all to see, I am now without excuse. If I ever get out of hand or uppity or post something un-Godly, everyone here can point to this post and call upon me for public repentance.
We may not like the idea, but this is the Christian way, even if it's not expected or enforced.
Timmy
01-21-2014, 08:05 AM
Romans 15:14,
While I am aware of the rules here, and have nothing to say against them, honestly, what Timmy first responded is still true. We are bound by the indwelling Spirit to one another. The Spirit of God isn't in subjection to the rules here at AFF. God will do what God will do, and if He instructs someone to reach out and admonish another poster, it is to Him we owe our obedience.
We can all debate if such is really from Him or not.
But we don't have to think that only a "spiritual authority" can admonish, reprove, or rebuke. We are our brother's keepers, and if a brother or sister sins against us, we (not anyone else) are supposed to go to them to "...go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone..." (Matthew 18:15). Here, a PM would work perfectly.
Additionally, the Lord said in Luke 17:3,
We do not have to wait around to have a pastoral meeting and counseling session with a spiritual authority. That is not brotherhood, that is lordship, as if only one man can handle it.
What's the point of having elders? The Corinthians were reprimanded for not having anyone sufficiently wise enough to judge a matter (1 Corinthians 6:5).
I venture to say that there are people who post here who are wise enough to judge a matter between a brother or sister, and have the right, through the teachings of Messiah, to admonish, reprove, and even rebuke, without claiming or pretending to be anyone's authority.
Now, maybe that flies in the face of what some believe or have been taught, and I know it doesn't gel with at least one of the "Ten Commandments of AFF", which is fine.
That is why I used myself as an example. I want this community of believers to know that, not because of the rules presented, BUT BECAUSE OF THE SCRIPTURES, that I am accountable to God to honor my elders and submit myself to them as a younger man, not just in age but also in spirit (1 Peter 5:5).
I am letting everyone know, even if they don't agree, that people like Michael and Renee (and others who fit the bill) have the Biblical right from God Himself to speak to my shame, as Paul my write, if I am out of line.
"Open rebuke is better than secret love" (Proverbs 25:7). Too much can happen in secret on a message board and the internet in general. For this very reason, I am opening myself here to open rebuke, affirming to one and all, and thus being accountable to the entire community, that I am not above correction, and must submit myself to the community's discipline, should it ever come about.
By posting this publicly for all to see, I am now without excuse. If I ever get out of hand or uppity or post something un-Godly, everyone here can point to this post and call upon me for public repentance.
We may not like the idea, but this is the Christian way, even if it's not expected or enforced.
Is an elder ever wrong?
Are two or three elders ever wrong?
Abiding Now
01-21-2014, 08:10 AM
Is an elder ever wrong?
Are two or three elders ever wrong?
Of course an elder(s) can be wrong. Especially around here.:thumbsup
n david
01-21-2014, 08:11 AM
While I am aware of the rules here, and have nothing to say against them, honestly, what Timmy first responded is still true. We are bound by the indwelling Spirit to one another. The Spirit of God isn't in subjection to the rules here at AFF. God will do what God will do, and if He instructs someone to reach out and admonish another poster, it is to Him we owe our obedience.
We can all debate if such is really from Him or not.
But we don't have to think that only a "spiritual authority" can admonish, reprove, or rebuke. We are our brother's keepers, and if a brother or sister sins against us, we (not anyone else) are supposed to go to them to "...go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone..." (Matthew 18:15). Here, a PM would work perfectly.
We do not have to wait around to have a pastoral meeting and counseling session with a spiritual authority. That is not brotherhood, that is lordship, as if only one man can handle it.
What's the point of having elders? The Corinthians were reprimanded for not having anyone sufficiently wise enough to judge a matter (1 Corinthians 6:5).
I venture to say that there are people who post here who are wise enough to judge a matter between a brother or sister, and have the right, through the teachings of Messiah, to admonish, reprove, and even rebuke, without claiming or pretending to be anyone's authority.
Now, maybe that flies in the face of what some believe or have been taught, and I know it doesn't gel with at least one of the "Ten Commandments of AFF", which is fine.
That is why I used myself as an example. I want this community of believers to know that, not because of the rules presented, BUT BECAUSE OF THE SCRIPTURES, that I am accountable to God to honor my elders and submit myself to them as a younger man, not just in age but also in spirit (1 Peter 5:5).
I am letting everyone know, even if they don't agree, that people like Michael and Renee (and others who fit the bill) have the Biblical right from God Himself to speak to my shame, as Paul my write, if I am out of line.
"Open rebuke is better than secret love" (Proverbs 25:7). Too much can happen in secret on a message board and the internet in general. For this very reason, I am opening myself here to open rebuke, affirming to one and all, and thus being accountable to the entire community, that I am not above correction, and must submit myself to the community's discipline, should it ever come about.
By posting this publicly for all to see, I am now without excuse. If I ever get out of hand or uppity or post something un-Godly, everyone here can point to this post and call upon me for public repentance.
We may not like the idea, but this is the Christian way, even if it's not expected or enforced.
IMO, 1 Corinthians 6 is speaking of a local assembly. I do not believe Paul meant for elders in Antioch to judge matters of one in Corinth. Each local assembly has elders which should be wise and able enough to judge matters between believers. I don't believe this is meant to be, or can be, applied to online message boards, Facebook, etc. Nothing against anyone on here, but the reason Paul addressed this as a local assembly issue is, IMO, for both party's benefit. In the local assembly, both the elders and the one's being judged are able to see and verify the life of each individual. Elders are able to see how the one's in judgement are actually living, and likewise, the one's in judgement are able to view the lives of the elders.
I don't believe it's the Christian way to allow an unknown, anonymous individual, whom you know nothing about, and who knows nothing about you, to stand in judgement of you or rebuke you.
I submit fully to my local elders, whom I am able to meet and fellowship with several times a week. Call me rebellious, but I do not submit to an individual whom I have no idea how they live away from AFF. I will listen to, and respect the opinion of a person who feels a post is out of line or is in the wrong spirit; but that's the extent of it.
:stirpot
Abiding Now
01-21-2014, 08:37 AM
IMO, 1 Corinthians 6 is speaking of a local assembly. I do not believe Paul meant for elders in Antioch to judge matters of one in Corinth. Each local assembly has elders which should be wise and able enough to judge matters between believers. I don't believe this is meant to be, or can be, applied to online message boards, Facebook, etc. Nothing against anyone on here, but the reason Paul addressed this as a local assembly issue is, IMO, for both party's benefit. In the local assembly, both the elders and the one's being judged are able to see and verify the life of each individual. Elders are able to see how the one's in judgement are actually living, and likewise, the one's in judgement are able to view the lives of the elders.
I don't believe it's the Christian way to allow an unknown, anonymous individual, whom you know nothing about, and who knows nothing about you, to stand in judgement of you or rebuke you.
I submit fully to my local elders, whom I am able to meet and fellowship with several times a week. Call me rebellious, but I do not submit to an individual whom I have no idea how they live away from AFF. I will listen to, and respect the opinion of a person who feels a post is out of line or is in the wrong spirit; but that's the extent of it.
:stirpot
:thumbsup
shazeep
01-21-2014, 09:33 AM
Of course an elder(s) can be wrong. Especially around here.:thumbsupWell, but let's admit how gratuitous that is? I would love to get to a better understanding of two or three gathered; one that does not necessarily need for them to be 'wrong' in order for someone else, living completely outside their experience to be 'right.'
Abiding Now
01-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Well, but let's admit how gratuitous that is? I would love to get to a better understanding of two or three gathered; one that does not necessarily need for them to be 'wrong' in order for someone else, living completely outside their experience to be 'right.'
I understand and believe that an unknown person could speak into my life, but I believe that person would have to have some known "qualifications" for the word/rebuke/exhortation to be acceptable.
votivesoul
01-21-2014, 11:32 PM
It's fine if no one agrees with me, or with each other, on this matter.
But let's look beyond this just being a message board for a second. To my knowledge, the people that post here are all Holy-Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ. This makes them brothers and sisters, with all of us coming under the Headship of Christ and the Fatherhood of God.
Now, while we may not know each other personally, in some day to day capacity, we nonetheless, get to know each other here. Fruit is evidenced here. Reputations are created here. Based on that, we can tell a sincere brother or sister who is being led by God from the rest.
It's how people like me and KeptbytheWord can know the merit of Michael and Renee. And in addition to that, if you have the Spirit, It will bear witness with your spirit if something is right on or not, if you've learned to be attentive to the Spirit and know the Word.
So, I don't see the worry or wonder whether or not some of the elders that post on here are worthy of our honor, or are able to judge a matter or not. If they're a loon, it's pretty obvious to all, much to their own unfortunate dishonor. And at that point, we decide if we should comfort them as feeble-minded, or reject them as a false brother or sister.
That being said, if anyone here doesn't want that level of accountability, well then hey, that's not my call to make for you.
votivesoul
01-21-2014, 11:35 PM
Is an elder ever wrong?
Are two or three elders ever wrong?
I refer you back to my origin post and what to do if such a person is perceived/believed to be wrong.
votivesoul
01-21-2014, 11:42 PM
IMO, 1 Corinthians 6 is speaking of a local assembly. I do not believe Paul meant for elders in Antioch to judge matters of one in Corinth. Each local assembly has elders which should be wise and able enough to judge matters between believers. I don't believe this is meant to be, or can be, applied to online message boards, Facebook, etc. Nothing against anyone on here, but the reason Paul addressed this as a local assembly issue is, IMO, for both party's benefit. In the local assembly, both the elders and the one's being judged are able to see and verify the life of each individual. Elders are able to see how the one's in judgement are actually living, and likewise, the one's in judgement are able to view the lives of the elders.
I don't believe it's the Christian way to allow an unknown, anonymous individual, whom you know nothing about, and who knows nothing about you, to stand in judgement of you or rebuke you.
I submit fully to my local elders, whom I am able to meet and fellowship with several times a week. Call me rebellious, but I do not submit to an individual whom I have no idea how they live away from AFF. I will listen to, and respect the opinion of a person who feels a post is out of line or is in the wrong spirit; but that's the extent of it.
:stirpot
And yet, recall that the elders in Jerusalem set policy for the entire universal Church throughout the Empire. Recall that people like Agabus traveled about speaking words to people whether they ever really knew the person with whom they spoke, since it was undeniably of the Holy Spirit that the word came from, and all recognized it as such.
I have met and prayed with people at conferences and large, multi-assembly services who I didn't know, and God used me to speak to them in a similar way. They didn't know me from anyone, and yet, if I accurately discerned the voice of the Lord and spoke to them, by being of God, the person knows immediately. They knew nothing of my life away from that meeting, and yet the Spirit bore witness with their spirit, that what I said was from God.
Additionally, travelling preachers today go from assembly to assembly, often not knowing a single soul present. Yet God uses them in supernatural ways to speak to the saints. I would argue that such usage by God is more powerful and confirming of the faith than having someone you know well speaking to you, since the person you know well can just be reading you, and not the voice of the Lord for you.
I submit it can be no different here or anywhere, for that matter, on the internet.
If anyone disagrees, that's fine. Shalom and erev tov. :)
Amanah
01-22-2014, 03:52 AM
I have met and prayed with people at conferences and large, multi-assembly services who I didn't know, and God used me to speak to them in a similar way. They didn't know me from anyone, and yet, if I accurately discerned the voice of the Lord and spoke to them, by being of God, the person knows immediately. They knew nothing of my life away from that meeting, and yet the Spirit bore witness with their spirit, that what I said was from God.
Additionally, travelling preachers today go from assembly to assembly, often not knowing a single soul present. Yet God uses them in supernatural ways to speak to the saints. I would argue that such usage by God is more powerful and confirming of the faith than having someone you know well speaking to you, since the person you know well can just be reading you, and not the voice of the Lord for you.
It is likely that these ministers you speak of were part of a greater assembly with accountability within that assembly, in overall agreement with your assembly, and not holding beliefs contrary to the tenants of your faith. They are not likely outside of your fellowship or highly critical of your fellowship.
If you are a disgruntled, unchurched OP, then AFF may be the perfect place for you to receive spiritual guidance. Otherwise you may just want to enjoy the fellowship and yet test the spirits.
votivesoul
01-22-2014, 05:22 AM
If you are a disgruntled, unchurched OP, then AFF may be the perfect place for you to receive spiritual guidance. Otherwise you may just want to enjoy the fellowship and yet test the spirits.
Such disgruntled people are known here by their fruit. From them I would not take much counsel, seeing how the root of bitterness in their soul becomes evident for all to see. It can't help but show through how they post. And on top of that, the Holy Spirit in constant operation in me will bear witness against their motives, if I care about maintaining my relationship with God.
Nevertheless, even as an embittered Shimei cursed David to his face, David, being wise, recognized the possibility that Shimei's actions may have been instigated by HaShem.
So even a disgruntled former OP may still, as unlikely as it seems, be stirred by the Spirit to speak, from time to time.
Amanah
01-22-2014, 07:09 AM
Nevertheless, even as an embittered Shimei cursed David to his face, David, being wise, recognized the possibility that Shimei's actions may have been instigated by HaShem.
So even a disgruntled former OP may still, as unlikely as it seems, be stirred by the Spirit to speak, from time to time.
Well said . . . you are a kind and gentle soul.
I pray God keeps you and protects you,
guides you and enlarges you,
and uses you for His glory.
in Jesus' name, Amen.
Timmy
01-22-2014, 01:34 PM
I refer you back to my origin post and what to do if such a person is perceived/believed to be wrong.
Thanks. So, if I understand it correctly, if one person rebukes you on AFF, you can ignore it. But if it's two or more, it might be God. Especially if they're old and grey. (Hey, I have grey hair! :lol)
Is that an accurate summary?
shazeep
01-22-2014, 01:58 PM
I understand and believe that an unknown person could speak into my life, but I believe that person would have to have some known "qualifications" for the word/rebuke/exhortation to be acceptable.Hmm. I think i see what you mean, and certainly true enough as far as it goes...but what about--just arguing now, maybe--when you get some word from the 'mouth of babes?' (for instance)
Abiding Now
01-22-2014, 08:07 PM
Hmm. I think i see what you mean, and certainly true enough as far as it goes...but what about--just arguing now, maybe--when you get some word from the 'mouth of babes?' (for instance)
I can't tell you the times that over the years I needed an answer and I would be having a conversation with a person (not a preacher) and out of the "mouth of a babe" as you describe it, I would get my answer and I would hear wisdom far beyond the speaker's capacity. It was always amazing to me that just before the wisdom would come, I would here the voice of the Lord speak into my spirit, "listen now this is wisdom".
votivesoul
01-22-2014, 11:21 PM
Thanks. So, if I understand it correctly, if one person rebukes you on AFF, you can ignore it. But if it's two or more, it might be God. Especially if they're old and grey. (Hey, I have grey hair! :lol)
Is that an accurate summary?
I would say it is accurate enough.
"Might be" is the key. At that point, since it might be, a thorough searching of the heart on the matter is recommended over blowing it off as vented spleen from someone that just doesn't like you.
And if, after a thorough searching of the heart, the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin (John 16:7-9), i.e. that what "might be" from God actually WAS from Him, then be honest, admit it, and apologize, with a humility that say "I will try to be more Christlike next time".
votivesoul
01-22-2014, 11:24 PM
I can't tell you the times that over the years I needed an answer and I would be having a conversation with a person (not a preacher) and out of the "mouth of a babe" as you describe it, I would get my answer and I would hear wisdom far beyond the speaker's capacity. It was always amazing to me that just before the wisdom would come, I would here the voice of the Lord speak into my spirit, "listen now this is wisdom".
This has happened to me, too. I submit it can happen here, at AFF, too, if we would but realize it, since God is omnipresent and can work through just about anyone, even pagan sinners and talking donkeys.
KeptByTheWord
01-23-2014, 08:49 AM
I can't tell you the times that over the years I needed an answer and I would be having a conversation with a person (not a preacher) and out of the "mouth of a babe" as you describe it, I would get my answer and I would hear wisdom far beyond the speaker's capacity. It was always amazing to me that just before the wisdom would come, I would here the voice of the Lord speak into my spirit, "listen now this is wisdom".
This has happened to me, too. I submit it can happen here, at AFF, too, if we would but realize it, since God is omnipresent and can work through just about anyone, even pagan sinners and talking donkeys.
Yes indeed. If we are listening, and our spirit is sensitive to the spirit of the Lord, the Lord can speak to us through ways which we would not go "looking" for his voice, but he uses those whom He wills to fulfill his purpose.
Sasha
01-24-2014, 03:40 PM
It's fine if no one agrees with me, or with each other, on this matter.
But let's look beyond this just being a message board for a second. To my knowledge, the people that post here are all Holy-Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ. This makes them brothers and sisters, with all of us coming under the Headship of Christ and the Fatherhood of God.
Now, while we may not know each other personally, in some day to day capacity, we nonetheless, get to know each other here. Fruit is evidenced here. Reputations are created here. Based on that, we can tell a sincere brother or sister who is being led by God from the rest.
It's how people like me and KeptbytheWord can know the merit of Michael and Renee. And in addition to that, if you have the Spirit, It will bear witness with your spirit if something is right on or not, if you've learned to be attentive to the Spirit and know the Word.
So, I don't see the worry or wonder whether or not some of the elders that post on here are worthy of our honor, or are able to judge a matter or not. If they're a loon, it's pretty obvious to all, much to their own unfortunate dishonor. And at that point, we decide if we should comfort them as feeble-minded, or reject them as a false brother or sister.
That being said, if anyone here doesn't want that level of accountability, well then hey, that's not my call to make for you.
I know it doesn't matter to you if I agree with you or not, but someone behind a computer using words that might speak to me in a positive way doesn't speak about how they live their lives. I've known and seen too much on this forum alone to know that people are not always as they seem. I'm not saying that Michael and Renee fit this description, and I'm sure they are fine folks. It's just that I've seen too much preaching and back patting online only to find out there were things going on behind the scenes that weren't becoming of those professing to be Christians by those same people preaching and back patting.
Abiding Now
01-24-2014, 07:36 PM
I know it doesn't matter to you if I agree with you or not, but someone behind a computer using words that might speak to me in a positive way doesn't speak about how they live their lives. I've known and seen too much on this forum alone to know that people are not always as they seem. I'm not saying that Michael and Renee fit this description, and I'm sure they are fine folks. It's just that I've seen too much preaching and back patting online only to find out there were things going on behind the scenes that weren't becoming of those professing to be Christians by those same people preaching and back patting.
Exactly.
:thumbsup
pilgram
01-26-2014, 12:01 AM
Amen. Great post.
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