Original sin?

[Luke]

What are arguments against original sin do you have? Personally I believe in original sin entirely but have noticed some on here do not?

[MissBrattified]

What are arguments against original sin do you have? Personally I believe in original sin entirely but have noticed some on here do not?

Based on this definition from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin), I would fall into the 2nd category:

"This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.[3]"

I believe everyone is born with the propensity for sin, but that doesn't mean they are destined to sin, or that they have no power over themselves. I believe our sin nature will eventually win out in most cases, causing us to need God's mercy and His power to overcome our own nature, but I don't believe it is impossible for someone to live perfectly with God's help. Difficult, but not impossible. As far as I know, Enoch is the only recorded example of this. IMO, his devotion to God is the only thing that allowed his notable perfection. Otherwise, his sin nature would have caused the same implosion it does in everyone else.

From the wiki page: "Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves."

I agree with this, too. I do believe that we are born sin-free, but I also believe that it would be very difficult to remain that way--because of our sin nature. I DON'T believe that Adam and Eve's choice brought on the sin nature, because Eve and Adam obviously had both the ability and the propensity for sin before they ever partook of the fruit. This fact debunks the idea that their sin caused the "inherited nature." They were innocent until they weren't--a result of their own choices--and they possessed the ability to sin from the time God created them.

[mizpeh]

MissBrat, do you believe that Adam and Eve would have died if they had not disobeyed God? or is death a result of their sin? I know my question sounds like it is out in left field but I've always thought that since God made all things "good" that he made us good as well without a propensity for sin and that sin and the propensity for sin is a result of the fall. I'm not so sure now.

[shazeep]

hmm, seems like "and dying you shall die" answers that?

[MissBrattified]

MissBrat, do you believe that Adam and Eve would have died if they had not disobeyed God? or is death a result of their sin? I know my question sounds like it is out in left field but I've always thought that since God made all things "good" that he made us good as well without a propensity for sin and that sin and the propensity for sin is a result of the fall. I'm not so sure now.

I think if they had been continuously obedient, they would have lived forever. Sin brings death; not the ability to sin.

[shazeep]

How would you state the difference between the Law of sin and death and the doctrine of Original Sin?

(and i mean, "...as you currently understand it," shooting from the hip, no 'wrong' answers)

[KeptByTheWord]

Luke, how do you define original sin?

[MissBrattified]

How would you state the difference between the Law of sin and death and the doctrine of Original Sin?

(and i mean, "...as you currently understand it," shooting from the hip, no 'wrong' answers)

In my opinion, Romans 8:1-8 is speaking in practical terms regarding our life in the flesh, and less about our eternal life. There is a qualifier that is repeated throughout the 8 verses: "...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" ...and this statement is the key to the intent of the entire passage: "...to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace...."

Also, Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Perhaps it's simpler to say that the result of Adam's sin was that sin and death were "introduced" to the world. Notice how it says, "Nevertheless death reigned...even over them that had not sinned [like Adam]...." It doesn't say "sin reigned"; only that death does, even over those who didn't break any commandments.

I'm having a hard time detangling the two terms, but it seems like "original sin" refers to the concept that we all [now] share a tendency toward sin, which seems a step further than a simple ability. The law of sin and death says that we are all sharing in judgment because of "one man's sin"--even if we are able to live our lives without breaking any commandments. (death still reigns)

[Luke]

Luke, how do you define original sin?

Original sin is the result of Adam and Eve's fall in the garden of eden and is passed down to each of us in that we are born with a propensity/bend to sin (sin/fallen nature) and are sinners at birth. Paul spoke of this in Ephesians 2 when he speaks of us being children of wrath by nature. Paul refers to it in Romans 7 as the law of sin and death, he refers to itin Ephesians 4 calling it old man, in Romans 6 it is called the old man and the body of sin. In romans 8 paul speaks of it as the carnal mind. In Galatians 5 (as in many places) it is called the flesh. David says that he was shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him. In a nother place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart therefore the heart must be defiled and sinful before we ever commit sin otherwise how could our first sin preceed from our heart if we had to commit it before it could be in our heart.

To say that we are not born sinners but rather innocent and righteous begs the question are we then born christian? If so then apperently baptism, tongues, repentace and faith are not needful for salvation. If on the other hand babies are simply born innocent and righteous and remain thus until they sin this would open the possibility of someone living a sin free life and never needing a savior and therefore entering heaven on their on merits.

[shazeep]

Not under the curse of the Law, maybe? Sounds right. They're cursed.
I'm having a hard time detangling the two terms, but it seems like "original sin" refers to the concept that we all [now] share a tendency toward sin, which seems a step further than a simple ability. The law of sin and death says that we are all sharing in judgment because of "one man's sin"--even if we are able to live our lives without breaking any commandments. (death still reigns)Nice. i'm convinced that you're having a hard time detangling those because the adoption of the doctrine that split the Church apart has been obscured from us, causing the first council of Trent to explode, and Augustine to roll in his grave--and all while agreeing with virtually everything Luke just said, except the 'born a sinner' part, probably; that is where the doctrine and the Law separate, i believe, depending upon how you define the phrase.

"We are freed from the law of sin and death."

Also, wouldn't born a sinner make your birth a curse, when we are told it's a blessing?
How can your birth be a blessing and a curse?

So it seems like a matter of timing, of when the curse is imputed, and (to me) the taking advantage of the subtle shift of perspective created in enabling you to see yourself as 'bad.'
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the-Fallacy-of-Death-Centric-Western-Christian-Models

[MissBrattified]

Original sin is the result of Adam and Eve's fall in the garden of eden and is passed down to each of us in that we are born with a propensity/bend to sin (sin/fallen nature) and are sinners at birth. Paul spoke of this in Ephesians 2 when he speaks of us being children of wrath by nature. Paul refers to it in Romans 7 as the law of sin and death, he refers to itin Ephesians 4 calling it old man, in Romans 6 it is called the old man and the body of sin. In romans 8 paul speaks of it as the carnal mind. In Galatians 5 (as in many places) it is called the flesh. David says that he was shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him. In a nother place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart therefore the heart must be defiled and sinful before we ever commit sin otherwise how could our first sin preceed from our heart if we had to commit it before it could be in our heart.

To say that we are not born sinners but rather innocent and righteous begs the question are we then born christian? If so then apperently baptism, tongues, repentace and faith are not needful for salvation. If on the other hand babies are simply born innocent and righteous and remain thus until they sin this would open the possibility of someone living a sin free life and never needing a savior and therefore entering heaven on their on merits.

Luke,

It's one thing to say that we are born into sin and another to say we are "born sinners." Do babies sin? The nature is passed down; not the actual sins. Yes, babies are born innocent (free from sin), but not free from the curse (free from judgment). The judgment resulting from Adam's sin that everyone shares is death; not hell.

Don't we read in scripture that Enoch lived a sin free life? (He was perfect) Obviously, then, there IS the possibility, as remote and difficult as it might be.

The curse of sin is also passed down, and as Romans says, even upon those who never sinned (disobeyed any commandments). The curse of sin is death. Why would scripture mention the possibility of the curse being passed upon those who never sinned if it isn't a possibility?

[MissBrattified]

Not under the curse of the Law, maybe? Sounds right. They're cursed.
Nice. i'm convinced that you're having a hard time detangling those because the adoption of the doctrine that split the Church apart has been obscured from us, causing the first council of Trent to explode, and Augustine to roll in his grave--and all while agreeing with virtually everything Luke just said, except the 'born a sinner' part, probably; that is where the doctrine and the Law separate, i believe, depending upon how you define the phrase.

"We are freed from the law of sin and death."

Also, wouldn't born a sinner make your birth a curse, when we are told it's a blessing?
How can your birth be a blessing and a curse?

So it seems like a matter of timing, of when the curse is imputed, and (to me) the taking advantage of the subtle shift of perspective created in enabling you to see yourself as 'bad.'
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the-Fallacy-of-Death-Centric-Western-Christian-Models

I don't know which "doctrine" you mean. The doctrine of original sin?

[Aquila]

Sin is more than an action. It is also a state of being. Here's a brief explanation of what I understand man's sinful nature to be...

When Adam and Eve lived in the garden there was a spiritual union and fellowship with God. Adam and Eve were one spirit with the Lord as believers are today through the Holy Ghost. However, when Adam and Eve sinned, that union was severed. Now the divine life of God no longer flowed through Adam and Eve. In addition, it wasn't going to be flowing through their children. Now that God's nature wasn't flowing through them... a strictly carnal nature was all they and their children had. This left mankind void of the divine life and subjected us all to a life governed by the flesh and the carnal mind. Having a nature less than the divine is short of man's design and God's intention. Therefore, it is inherently sinful. It is existing in a state of sin. So man's nature by birth is now sinful. The human being is only capable of sin. Every thought and deed, even good ones, now serve self. There is no divine life in un-regenerated man. Man is essentially... "spiritually dead" in God's sight. And the carnal mind will not receive or understand the things of God. This is why the Father must first draw His elect through the Holy Spirit (an act of divine grace), they cannot just come to Him at will. The Father must begin drawing before any elect child of God can surrender their will to Him. Once one surrenders their will to God, and God fills them with the Holy Spirit, the union between man and God is re-established and man is once more one spirit with God through the Holy Spirit. The divine life now flows through the regenerated elect saint of God.

[MissBrattified]

Aquila: thoughts on Enoch?

[Aquila]

Aquila: thoughts on Enoch?

Enoch walked with God. Enoch wasn't spiritually one with God. The promise of God's indwelling Spirit is strictly a NT reality only hinted at in the OT.

God's grace was clearly extended to those whom God desired to save in the OT. However, the actual reparation of the spiritual breach between man and God wasn't restored until the NT.

[shazeep]

Boy, Aquila; all that kind of reads as if several hairs have just been split...
I don't know which "doctrine" you mean. The doctrine of original sin?yes; as opposed to the definition of it, even--which, in my understanding, couldn't even be done to the satisfaction of everyone present. I'm also curious what anyone (outside the Council of Trent) supposes that the doctrine of OS even accomplishes, if not to diminish the freedom we have over the Law.

[MissBrattified]

Enoch walked with God. Enoch wasn't spiritually one with God. The promise of God's indwelling Spirit is strictly a NT reality only hinted at in the OT.

God's grace was clearly extended to those whom God desired to save in the OT. However, the actual reparation of the spiritual breach between man and God wasn't restored until the NT.

Aquila, even though Enoch wasn't filled with the Spirit, he still found such favor with God that He apparently didn't even allow him to suffer the judgment of physical death. That was the context of my question. How do you reconcile that with the assertion that we are all born sinners and share in the death sentence?

[Aquila]

Aquila, even though Enoch wasn't filled with the Spirit, he still found such favor with God that He apparently didn't even allow him to suffer the judgment of physical death. That was the context of my question. How do you reconcile that with the assertion that we are all born sinners and share in the death sentence?

Enoch was a sinner like all men. However, God evidently called Enoch to Himself and they walked together. Every act of grace exhibited by God in the OT was predicated on the future cross of Calvary. Just as God justifies the elect sinner today by looking back at the cross... in the OT God looked forward to the cross. This is seen repeatedly in the sacrificial system.

[MissBrattified]

Enoch was a sinner like all men. However, God evidently called Enoch to Himself and they walked together. Every act of grace exhibited by God in the OT was predicated on the future cross of Calvary. Just as God justifies the elect sinner today by looking back at the cross... in the OT God looked forward to the cross. This is seen repeatedly in the sacrificial system.

What about the statement in Romans that the judgment of death reigns [even] over those who hadn't sinned? Doesn't that reference the possibility of being sinless? IMO, lacking sin and lacking a sin nature aren't the same thing.

[Aquila]

What about the statement in Romans that the judgment of death reigns [even] over those who hadn't sinned? Doesn't that reference the possibility of being sinless? IMO, lacking sin and lacking a sin nature aren't the same thing.

I'm not being petty, but can you provide the text?

[MissBrattified]

I'm not being petty, but can you provide the text?

No problem, I like to read things for myself, too. :)

Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Also, to correct myself, I went back and checked and scripture doesn't actually call Enoch "perfect." It just says that he walked with God. (Unless I missed something.)

[shazeep]

Since that verse seems to come up repeatedly, i'm curious about something i read in Original Blessing, and never quite grasped:

"In Paul's Letter to the Romans he says, 'Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death spread to all men because all men sinned.' And using a faulty Latin translation which left out the word "death" he translates as follows: 'Through one man sin entered into the world and through sin, death, and thus spread to all men, in whom all have sinned.' (Contra Julianum)"

[Aquila]

No problem, I like to read things for myself, too. :)

Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Also, to correct myself, I went back and checked and scripture doesn't actually call Enoch "perfect." It just says that he walked with God. (Unless I missed something.)

Well... two things jump out at me.

First off, concerning Enoch... if it does call him "perfect" the word may not mean "perfect" in the manner that we might take it to mean "perfect". Would it mean that Enoch never sinned? (Which would contradict Romans 12-14, which states "all have sinned".) So saying that someone is "perfect" could mean that they are all that they could possibly be, given their current circumstance.

Second, Romans 5:12-14 doesn't imply that some haven't sinned. It reads,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

In other words, they were not deliberately rebellions as Adam was. However, death still reigned over them because... they still had sinned.

[MissBrattified]

Well... two things jump out at me.

First off, concerning Enoch... if it does call him "perfect" the word may not mean "perfect" in the manner that we might take it to mean "perfect". Would it mean that Enoch never sinned? (Which would contradict Romans 12-14, which states "all have sinned".) So saying that someone is "perfect" could mean that they are all that they could possibly be, given their current circumstance.

Second, Romans 5:12-14 doesn't imply that some haven't sinned. It reads,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

In other words, they were not deliberately rebellions as Adam was. However, death still reigned over them because... they still had sinned.

I don't know, Aquila. That's not exactly what it says. "Similitude" is vague, meaning "likeness" or "resemblance", but that's not very precise.

NIV says it this way:

NIV: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

The original Greek says, "...even over those who not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam...."

To paraphrase, it says "even over those who didn't sin like Adam." We don't know if that means they didn't sin, like Adam did, or if it means they didn't commit the same kind of sin he did.

[Aquila]

I don't know, Aquila. That's not exactly what it says. "Similitude" is vague, meaning "likeness" or "resemblance", but that's not very precise.

NIV says it this way:

NIV: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

The original Greek says, "...even over those who not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam...."

To paraphrase, it says "even over those who didn't sin like Adam." We don't know if that means they didn't sin, like Adam did, or if it means they didn't commit the same kind of sin he did.

Hmmmm...

So when the Bible states that "all of sinned", is it mistaken? If not, then one must conclude that when we say that some didn't sin "like Adam did" we are referring to the manner of Adam's sin, not sin itself.

[MissBrattified]

Hmmmm...

So when the Bible states that "all of sinned", is it mistaken? If not, then one must conclude that when we say that some didn't sin "like Adam did" we are referring to the manner of Adam's sin, not sin itself.

Hm...You're right, and I agree, so that begs the classic question: Are babies born innocent in God's eyes, or if a baby dies, do they suffer the same eternal damnation promised to other sinners?

Another intriguing part of the passage, and then I have to run to a meeting:

[NIV] 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

Also, the niggling problem that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose sin prior to the fall. How, without a "sin nature?"

[Luke]

Luke,

It's one thing to say that we are born into sin and another to say we are "born sinners." Do babies sin? The nature is passed down; not the actual sins. Yes, babies are born innocent (free from sin), but not free from the curse (free from judgment). The judgment resulting from Adam's sin that everyone shares is death; not hell.

Don't we read in scripture that Enoch lived a sin free life? (He was perfect) Obviously, then, there IS the possibility, as remote and difficult as it might be.

The curse of sin is also passed down, and as Romans says, even upon those who never sinned (disobeyed any commandments). The curse of sin is death. Why would scripture mention the possibility of the curse being passed upon those who never sinned if it isn't a possibility?

Babies are born sinners in that they are not born christians.The nature that a baby is born with is a fallen sinful nature. In other words we are sinful from birth by our very nature as i have already pointed out David said that he was shapen in iniquity while in another place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Where does the bible ever say that babies are born innocent?

It should be noticed that the bible says that Enoch was 65 yrs old before he was said to walk with the Lord. When Enoch is spoken of in hebrews it says that before he was taken he had the testimony of pleasing God then it goes on to say that without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore the life that Enoch lived was through faith in God not because he had been born innocent and somehow retained that throughout his life. Paul in romans 8 makes it clear that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be by this verse alone there can be no question that a man apart from God cannot live a sin free life.

Jerimiah states that the heart is deciteful above all things desperately wicked who can know it. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart but if babies are born innocent and pure how could they ever sin if sin must first originate in our heart? Inorder for what Jesus said to be true regarding sin proceeding from our heart we must of necessity be born with a sinful heart or nature. Otherwise we could not sin without contradicting Jesus.

Satan like Adam and Eve was said to have been created perfect and sinless but this did not mean that he like they could not sin rather there was obviously in both cases the possibility of sin but not the propensity or tendency to sin. One does not need a carnal nature to be able to sin rather the carnal nature of man gives him the tendency to sin.

Please address this question if a baby is born sin free and continues this way till death would thatperson enter heaven on their own merits since they never had anything to repent of thus never the blood of Jesus to remove their sins?

[phareztamar]

Great post brother Luke!:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Luke]

As to eternal state of babies if they are born sinners I believe that this question is answered by the following verse:

Romans 5:13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Notice that the passage does not deny the presence of sin but it does call into question the accountability of sin if there is no law. This imo would fit the description of babies since they are born with a carnal/sinful nature but do not have the mental capabilities to understand right from wrong therefore how can there be law for one who has no understanding or even the ability to understand? This does not mean they are born they are born innocent or saved rather it magnifies the grace and mercy of God in that He by His great mercy covers holds them without the law until they reach such an age as to understand right and wrong. Until such time they are sinful by nature but not by guilt.

[MissBrattified]

Babies are born sinners in that they are not born christians.The nature that a baby is born with is a fallen sinful nature. In other words we are sinful from birth by our very nature as i have already pointed out David said that he was shapen in iniquity while in another place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Where does the bible ever say that babies are born innocent?

It should be noticed that the bible says that Enoch was 65 yrs old before he was said to walk with the Lord. When Enoch is spoken of in hebrews it says that before he was taken he had the testimony of pleasing God then it goes on to say that without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore the life that Enoch lived was through faith in God not because he had been born innocent and somehow retained that throughout his life. Paul in romans 8 makes it clear that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be by this verse alone there can be no question that a man apart from God cannot live a sin free life.

Yes, I sort of withdrew the statement about Enoch. When I looked it up, I realized scripture never called him perfect, so there's no point in pursuing that line of thought.

Jerimiah states that the heart is deciteful above all things desperately wicked who can know it. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart but if babies are born innocent and pure how could they ever sin if sin must first originate in our heart? Inorder for what Jesus said to be true regarding sin proceeding from our heart we must of necessity be born with a sinful heart or nature. Otherwise we could not sin without contradicting Jesus.

I get what you're saying to some extent, but this is what is failing to make sense to me: If the sin nature was inherited from Adam (the original sin theory) BECAUSE of the fall, then how did he possess the ability to sin before the fall?

I agree that babies are born with a sin nature, but I don't believe that means they are born sinful. You aren't sinful until you sin. Whether that's a sin in the heart (mind) or a committed sin doesn't matter. It's probable that it will happen, but I still don't see how you can say that a baby is born a sinner (meaning, *guilty of sin*) when they haven't actually committed any sins.

Satan like Adam and Eve was said to have been created perfect and sinless but this did not mean that he like they could not sin rather there was obviously in both cases the possibility of sin but not the propensity or tendency to sin. One does not need a carnal nature to be able to sin rather the carnal nature of man gives him the tendency to sin.

Okay, this part you'll have to rephrase. :blink

Please address this question if a baby is born sin free and continues this way till death would thatperson enter heaven on their own merits since they never had anything to repent of thus never the blood of Jesus to remove their sins?

I doubt the ability of any person to remain perfect without having a relationship with God. However, assuming it did happen, then I would expect God to show mercy, in keeping with His nature, and I think this portion of Romans would apply:

Romans 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

At the same time, if someone were aware of God and His commandments, it would constitute disobedience if they chose not to walk with Him and they would cease to be perfect or sinless. The example only holds if they are completely shielded their entire lives from any knowledge of God or His commandments and somehow also remain perfectly sinless.

The last comment is contradictory. If they remained sinless, they wouldn't need their sins removed.

[MissBrattified]

As to eternal state of babies if they are born sinners I believe that this question is answered by the following verse:

Romans 5:13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Notice that the passage does not deny the presence of sin but it does call into question the accountability of sin if there is no law. This imo would fit the description of babies since they are born with a carnal/sinful nature but do not have the mental capabilities to understand right from wrong therefore how can there be law for one who has no understanding or even the ability to understand? This does not mean they are born they are born innocent or saved rather it magnifies the grace and mercy of God in that He by His great mercy covers holds them without the law until they reach such an age as to understand right and wrong. Until such time they are sinful by nature but not by guilt.

Right, and I guess I should have multi-quoted. I would expect that same mercy to apply to the [impossibly] unlikely possibility that someone could be completely shielded from God's commandments (have no knowledge of sin and what God expects from them) and also remain sinless. Actually, that wasn't the scenario I originally presented. My hypothetical refers to a person walking with God like Enoch and being sinless, e.g., never disobeying any of God's commandments.

[Aquila]

Hm...You're right, and I agree, so that begs the classic question: Are babies born innocent in God's eyes, or if a baby dies, do they suffer the same eternal damnation promised to other sinners?

It would appear that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Bible seems to indicate that God has mercy on infants when we consider David's words concerning the death of his child with Bathsheba:

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Remember, God's mercy and grace are all predicated upon the cross. In the OT God justified sinful men by looking forward to the blood... in the NT God justified men predicated upon looking back at the blood.

Another intriguing part of the passage, and then I have to run to a meeting:

[NIV] 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

Also, the niggling problem that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose sin prior to the fall. How, without a "sin nature?"

A creature with free will can choose sin. However, once a creature sins they loose their fellowship and union with God... becoming slaves to sin... and the sin nature now governs.

[MissBrattified]

It would appear that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Bible seems to indicate that God has mercy on infants when we consider David's words concerning the death of his child with Bathsheba:

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Remember, God's mercy and grace are all predicated upon the cross. In the OT God justified sinful men by looking forward to the blood... in the NT God justified men predicated upon looking back at the blood.



A creature with free will can choose sin. However, once a creature sins they loose their fellowship and union with God... becoming slaves to sin... and the sin nature now governs.

Sigh. No one is really addressing my main question, at least not to my satisfaction. I'm not discussing to argue; I'm trying to understand this doctrine. It's not your fault if I don't understand...LOL...I'm just feeling a little frustrated that there seem to be some holes here.

The doctrine of original sin works from the premise that Adam's sin brought sin and judgment upon the rest of the world, right? However, I think the idea that Adam's sin brought a "sin nature" onto the rest of the world is possibly extra-biblical. Where does scripture say that? Adam had the ability to sin, and even though he was innocent of sin and ignorant of the consequences, he still chose disobedience. Doesn't that illustrate that he had a carnal nature before the fall?

Which scriptures disprove this?

Maybe the terminology is what's throwing me off?

FTR, Catholic theology teaches that babies are born sinners--that's why they baptize infants. Protestant theology teaches that we are sinners once we commit sin, and that requires a knowledge of right and wrong.

[shazeep]

the RCC's stance is your clue here, imo; i think your Qs might best be answered by understanding what happened at the Councils of Trent. I would be curious to hear your perceptions after these have been assimilated.

[Esaias]

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

[MissBrattified]

the RCC's stance is your clue here, imo; i think your Qs might best be answered by understanding what happened at the Councils of Trent. I would be curious to hear your perceptions after these have been assimilated.

Do you have any good links or reading recommendations for me?

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

Thanks, Esaias.

[shazeep]

well, i got onto this via Original Blessing, Matthew Fox (a former Catholic, and Jesuit, i think), but even he did not seem to make as direct a connection as http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the-Fallacy-of-Death-Centric-Western-Christian-Models, which i started, simply because i could not have a discussion on the Law of sin and death with anyone--it kept turning into a debate of the doctrine; which led me to (fruitlessly) seek an acceptable definition of it. Which led me to an examination of what the doctrine is actually used for, its 'function.' Which i have just recently posted here (i think), something along the lines of "to make you feel more guilty" or some such.

[Luke]

As far as I can tell you seem to have 3 basic major questions.

1. How could they sin without a sinful nature or if they weren't created with a sin nature how could they sin?

To answer this question look at this passage in Ezekiel 28--

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice these scriptures are speaking about lucifer before his fall. Notice he is called perfect from the time of his creation until sin is found in him. The fact that sin is found in him does not mean that God did not it was there sense God made him perfect and put all that was suppose to be in lucifer in him. Rather it simply means he was perfect till he fell. I point this out to show that even though satan was created sunless and perfect he still had the ability to sin.

Look now at Ecc.7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Notice again that man was created upright and God Himself calls man good but man was given the ability to chose but man did not have a natural pull toward sin. God made man serve and worship Him but gave man the ability and right to chose obedience or disobedience. The ability to chose is from God not a sinful nature.

[Luke]

2. Where does the bible say that the fallen nature was passed down from Adam?

In Gen 2 we are told that God created man in His own image and likeness this means more than simply we look like God rather were also created in God's moral likeness. Notice though after the fall in Gen 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Here it is shown that now man is a reflection of adams moral likness in that we are flawed.

Notice also one of imo the best illustrations that show how the actions of one generation can be attributed to another generation which helps us understand the passing down of the carnal nature. Hebrews 7:9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him

Notice that Paul says that Levi payed tithes to melchisedec when abrahamdid because he was yet to be born but since he came from Abraham he was seen to have played tithes when Abraham did. In the same way we all proceeded from Adam and eve therefore in Adam and Eve we all became sinners.

[Luke]

3. Is it possible for someone who has no knowledge of God or His law to live a sinless life?

First of all the Bible clearly says that the first part of those question is impossible:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

Secondly the later part of the question is completely in biblical as well:


Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[Aquila]

Sigh. No one is really addressing my main question, at least not to my satisfaction. I'm not discussing to argue; I'm trying to understand this doctrine. It's not your fault if I don't understand...LOL...I'm just feeling a little frustrated that there seem to be some holes here.

The doctrine of original sin works from the premise that Adam's sin brought sin and judgment upon the rest of the world, right? However, I think the idea that Adam's sin brought a "sin nature" onto the rest of the world is possibly extra-biblical. Where does scripture say that? Adam had the ability to sin, and even though he was innocent of sin and ignorant of the consequences, he still chose disobedience. Doesn't that illustrate that he had a carnal nature before the fall?

Which scriptures disprove this?

Maybe the terminology is what's throwing me off?

FTR, Catholic theology teaches that babies are born sinners--that's why they baptize infants. Protestant theology teaches that we are sinners once we commit sin, and that requires a knowledge of right and wrong.

Meditate upon these texts...

Sin nature:

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5)

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth” (Psalm 58:3)

"Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

“The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” (Isaiah 64:6)

For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (Romans 7:15-20, ESV)

[Aquila]

It's important to note that in our lost and sinful state our sin nature alienates us from God. This means that we cannot approach Him on our own or in our own timing:

“For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so” (Romans 8:6-7)

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Thus we can only come to God as He has chosen us and His grace pursues us to draw us to Him:

Matthew 22:14 (ESV)
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 6:44 (ESV)
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Acts 13:48 (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14 (ESV)
14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Romans 8:30 (ESV)
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The elect do not find God. God was never lost. God seeks out and draws His elect, His chosen, from mankind. Without God's grace drawing us, we cannot approach Him. We cannot simply choose to believe in Jesus. This is why so many tarry for the Holy Ghost. Sometimes, it's not their time. Sometimes, although they are among the called, they simply are not chosen.

In this we must simply trust in God's power and wisdom.