Isn’t John 3:5 and Mathew 3:11 the same?

[Disciple4life]

Isn’t John 3:5 and Mathew 3:11 Mark 1:8 Luke 3:16 John 1:33 Acts 1:5 the same message and meaning?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Mathew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 1:5
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

First a person has to hear about Jesus and him dying for your sins. When they believe the very next thing to do is get baptized in Jesus name and be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So this is an honest question. Are all of these verses saying the same thing? Don’t they all agree?
If you don’t agree, show me how there is a difference.

[Disciple4life]

:nobodycares :secretservice

:bedtime

[RJR]

Good observations, I will also in the next post give some comparisons between John's water baptism and water baptism administered starting in ACTS 2.

[RJR]

Knowing Only The Baptism Of John.

Acts 18:25 (Apollos)…knowing only the baptism of John.

Of all the credentials that is given Apollos the most glaring is one not listed but is yet clearly apparent, that is in spite of his successes, he had a teachable spirit. I am reminded of the description of Israel in Deut. 32:10, who was found in a desert land, and waste howling wilderness who was also desribed as the apple of God’s eye, the bridge between the two extremes of where Israel was found and what he became was being led and instructed.

Before his introduction to Aquila and Priscilla, Acts 18:24-25, Apollos was described as eloquent, mighty in the scriptures, instructed in the way of the Lord; and fervent in the spirit, who spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, yet knew only the baptism of John. Upon having the way expounded more perfectly, this preacher would go on to have a refreshing ministry in the NT church. Paul who planted stated it was Apollos who watered 1 Cor. 3:6, Paul would speak of his desire for Apollos in 1 Cor. 16:12, and being a man described as eloquent in Acts 18, it would be no wonder he would be found in the company of a lawyer in Titus 3:13.

Knowing only the baptism of John would certainly be quite a revelation for today’s denominational genre. What did the baptism of John force upon its adherents?

Look quickly at the commendation of John the Baptist in scripture, (while not exhaustive it will be sufficient to begin) John was sent of God, John 1:6, was a prophet, Mat. 11:9-10, man born of woman (outside of those born again, or least in the kingdom) there is not risen a greater than he, Mat 11:11.

1) To be baptized of John was to justify (obey, glorify, acknowledge) God. To reject his baptism was to reject the counsel of God against oneself, Luke 7:29-30. Baptism was not simply John’s message it was God’s! Just as our message on baptism is not ours but God’s! Mat. 28:19-20 (teach - baptize, observe all things I have commanded you)!

2) One had to believe in order to be baptized in John’s day. When Jesus was asked by what authority thou doest these things he responded to their question with a question of his own, Mat. 21:23-25. This put them up the proverbial creek without a paddle, because if they responded the baptism of John was of God, he would ask why didn't you believe him, (indicated by submitting to his baptism). Clearly when one believes they will be baptized. In our day the reason we do not have the results we desire in response to this essential, for salvation, message of baptism is some just does not believe. When we believe we will be baptized, Mark 16:16.

3) To be baptized by John the Baptist, repentance was not a suggestion it was a prerequisite, Mat. 3:1-11. He told those Pharisees’ that if they repented there would be proof or evidence of change. Repentance is not a slight behavior modification it is an about face. It induces desire for change and then helps facilitate it, 2 Cor. 7:10-11.

4) John’s baptism was by immersion as the term itself indicates, or to submerge, John 3:23, Mark 1:9-10. Just as baptism is by immersion as indicated by the Ethiopian and Phillip, Acts 8:38-39.

5. John message of repentance and baptism was for the remission of sins, Mark 1:4, just as our new birth involving repentance and baptism is also for the remission of sins as preached in the NT church, Acts 2:38!

Summary

a. The message of Baptism was God’s message
b. One had to believe to be baptized.
c. Repentance was required.
d. Baptism was not a sprinkling but an immersion.
e. Repentance and baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.

Things that John disciples did not know. That baptism would be preached in His (Jesus) name beginning a Jerusalem, Luke 24:47, that was the only name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved, Acts 4:12, and that name invoked (calling), Acts 22:16, would be for the washing away of sins. The disciples of John had not heard whether there be any Holy Ghost Acts 19:1-6. While John the Baptist foretold of a day when Jesus would Baptize them with the Holy Ghost and fire, John never lived to see it.

[Pressing-On]

Knowing Only The Baptism Of John.

Acts 18:25 (Apollos)…knowing only the baptism of John.

Of all the credentials that is given Apollos the most glaring is one not listed but is yet clearly apparent, that is in spite of his successes, he had a teachable spirit. I am reminded of the description of Israel in Deut. 32:10, who was found in a desert land, and waste howling wilderness who was also desribed as the apple of God’s eye, the bridge between the two extremes of where Israel was found and what he became was being led and instructed.

Before his introduction to Aquila and Priscilla, Acts 18:24-25, Apollos was described as eloquent, mighty in the scriptures, instructed in the way of the Lord; and fervent in the spirit, who spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, yet knew only the baptism of John. Upon having the way expounded more perfectly, this preacher would go on to have a refreshing ministry in the NT church. Paul who planted stated it was Apollos who watered 1 Cor. 3:6, Paul would speak of his desire for Apollos in 1 Cor. 16:12, and being a man described as eloquent in Acts 18, it would be no wonder he would be found in the company of a lawyer in Titus 3:13.

Knowing only the baptism of John would certainly be quite a revelation for today’s denominational genre. What did the baptism of John force upon its adherents?

Look quickly at the commendation of John the Baptist in scripture, (while not exhaustive it will be sufficient to begin) John was sent of God, John 1:6, was a prophet, Mat. 11:9-10, man born of woman (outside of those born again, or least in the kingdom) there is not risen a greater than he, Mat 11:11.

1) To be baptized of John was to justify (obey, glorify, acknowledge) God. To reject his baptism was to reject the counsel of God against oneself, Luke 7:29-30. Baptism was not simply John’s message it was God’s! Just as our message on baptism is not ours but God’s! Mat. 28:19-20 (teach - baptize, observe all things I have commanded you)!

2) One had to believe in order to be baptized in John’s day. When Jesus was asked by what authority thou doest these things he responded to their question with a question of his own, Mat. 21:23-25. This put them up the proverbial creek without a paddle, because if they responded the baptism of John was of God, he would ask why didn't you believe him, (indicated by submitting to his baptism). Clearly when one believes they will be baptized. In our day the reason we do not have the results we desire in response to this essential, for salvation, message of baptism is some just does not believe. When we believe we will be baptized, Mark 16:16.

3) To be baptized by John the Baptist, repentance was not a suggestion it was a prerequisite, Mat. 3:1-11. He told those Pharisees’ that if they repented there would be proof or evidence of change. Repentance is not a slight behavior modification it is an about face. It induces desire for change and then helps facilitate it, 2 Cor. 7:10-11.

4) John’s baptism was by immersion as the term itself indicates, or to submerge, John 3:23, Mark 1:9-10. Just as baptism is by immersion as indicated by the Ethiopian and Phillip, Acts 8:38-39.

5. John message of repentance and baptism was for the remission of sins, Mark 1:4, just as our new birth involving repentance and baptism is also for the remission of sins as preached in the NT church, Acts 2:38!

Summary

a. The message of Baptism was God’s message
b. One had to believe to be baptized.
c. Repentance was required.
d. Baptism was not a sprinkling but an immersion.
e. Repentance and baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.

Things that John disciples did not know. That baptism would be preached in His (Jesus) name beginning a Jerusalem, Luke 24:47, that was the only name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved, Acts 4:12, and that name invoked (calling), Acts 22:16, would be for the washing away of sins. The disciples of John had not heard whether there be any Holy Ghost Acts 19:1-6. While John the Baptist foretold of a day when Jesus would Baptize them with the Holy Ghost and fire, John never lived to see it.
Well said - great post!! :thumbsup

[justlookin]

Isn’t John 3:5 and Mathew 3:11 Mark 1:8 Luke 3:16 John 1:33 Acts 1:5 the same message and meaning?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Mathew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 1:5
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

First a person has to hear about Jesus and him dying for your sins. When they believe the very next thing to do is get baptized in Jesus name and be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

All those verses are saying is there is water baptism and there is Spirit baptism. Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit; He didn't say that which is born of the water is Spirit. One baptism, one birth, Spirit baptism and Spirit birth.

Water has nothing to do with Spirit baptism.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[RJR]

All those verses are saying is there is water baptism and there is Spirit baptism. Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit; He didn't say that which is born of the water is Spirit. One baptism, one birth, Spirit baptism and Spirit birth.

Water has nothing to do with Spirit baptism.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

No one has ever said that water is spirit. Jesus said the New Birth was comprised of water AND spirit. Not one's physical birth and one's spiritual birth is comprised of water and spirit, the single subject being the New Birth and it was comprised of water and spirit. The reason for Jesus saying that which is born of flesh is flesh was in response to Nicodemus, thinking the way you are, that a man would have to enter his mother's womb and be born. However Jesus' instructions was not about the physical but rather the spiritual. The New Birth is water and Spirit, St John 3:5, 1John 5:8.

The Samaritan's had believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, received the word of God, was baptized (water) and still had not received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:12-16

The household of Cornelius had received the Holy Ghost and yet was COMMANDED to be baptized. In verse 47, Peter referred to this as "can any man forbid "WATER" that these should not be baptized...

[justlookin]

No one has ever said that water is spirit. Jesus said the New Birth was comprised of water AND spirit. Not one's physical birth and one's spiritual birth is comprised of water and spirit, the single subject being the New Birth and it was comprised of water and spirit. The reason for Jesus saying that which is born of flesh is flesh was in response to Nicodemus, thinking the way you are, that a man would have to enter his mother's womb and be born. However Jesus' instructions was not about the physical but rather the spiritual. The New Birth is water and Spirit, St John 3:5, 1John 5:8.

The Samaritan's had believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, received the word of God, was baptized (water) and still had not received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:12-16

The household of Cornelius had received the Holy Ghost and yet was COMMANDED to be baptized. In verse 47, Peter referred to this as "can any man forbid "WATER" that these should not be baptized...

I don't think anyone is arguing against baptism, I know I'm not. Jesus said that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. Spirit birth results in a Spirit child being born. Water doesn't birth a Spirit child, water births a natural child, thus Jesus' statement that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

Cornelius' household experienced Spirit birth, that which is born of Spirit is Spirit, and at that point they were children of God....before baptism. Are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water? If so, those individuals in Cornelius' household were birthed of God, but were not children of God which has serious consequences concerning what is birthed of the Spirit.

[RJR]

I don't think anyone is arguing against baptism, I know I'm not. Jesus said that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. Spirit birth results in a Spirit child being born. Water doesn't birth a Spirit child, water births a natural child, thus Jesus' statement that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

Cornelius' household experienced Spirit birth, that which is born of Spirit is Spirit, and at that point they were children of God....before baptism. Are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water? If so, those individuals in Cornelius' household were birthed of God, but were not children of God which has serious consequences concerning what is birthed of the Spirit.

Cornelius' new birth was not complete with having received the Holy Ghost. This is easily understood by the fact that the angel told him that Peter would tell him what he ought to do Acts 10:6, and according to Peter's rehearsal of Cornelius' angel visitation in Acts 11:14 that he (Peter) will tell thee words whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

I must ask you justlookin, did Peter command Cornelius to be baptized? What Peter was to tell him was for salvation, and it was a direct command to be baptized.

I must also ask if water was not as important as spirit and blood, then why include it in 1John 5:8? And what is the one thing water blood and spirit agrees? Is it not the new birth?

[justlookin]

Cornelius' new birth was not complete with having received the Holy Ghost. This is easily understood by the fact that the angel told him that Peter would tell him what he ought to do Acts 10:6, and according to Peter's rehearsal of Cornelius' angel visitation in Acts 11:14 that he (Peter) will tell thee words whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

I must ask you justlookin, did Peter command Cornelius to be baptized? What Peter was to tell him was for salvation, and it was a direct command to be baptized.

I must also ask if water was not as important as spirit and blood, then why include it in 1John 5:8? And what is the one thing water blood and spirit agrees? Is it not the new birth?

I'm not suggesting that water baptism isn't important, my point is that only the Spirit births Spirit, per Jesus Himself. Peter taught water baptism by his question "can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?", but Peter wasn't suggesting water baptism was necessary for birth of the Spirit in Cornelius' household for that had occurred earlier.

I ask you again, are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water, i.e, baptism? If so, what does the birth of the Spirit produce, if not a child of God, and does your answer agree with Jesus teaching concerning Spirit birth?

[RJR]

I'm not suggesting that water baptism isn't important, my point is that only the Spirit births Spirit, per Jesus Himself. Peter taught water baptism by his question "can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?", but Peter wasn't suggesting water baptism was necessary for birth of the Spirit in Cornelius' household for that had occurred earlier.

I ask you again, are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water, i.e, baptism? If so, what does the birth of the Spirit produce, if not a child of God, and does your answer agree with Jesus teaching concerning Spirit birth?

I have already answered your question but will be glad to do it again. Lets do this one question at a time. I will be happy to ask my questions also one at a time. And will answer your questions one at a time.

1. 1John 5:8 says there is three that bear witness in earth and it was the Spirit the water and the blood and these three agree in one. What is the one that these essential applications or ingredients agree?

[justlookin]

I have already answered your question but will be glad to do it again. Lets do this one question at a time. I will be happy to ask my questions also one at a time.

1. 1John 5:8 says there is three that bear witness in earth and it was the Spirit the water and the blood and these three agree in one. What is the one that these essential applications or ingredients agree?

You asked a question, you didn't answer my question.

I'll stop asking.

[RJR]

You asked a question, you didn't answer my question.

I'll stop asking.

No please do not quit. That is the easy thing to do. If you have something you think we ought to receive have the courage to stand behind it.

Ask me 1 question at a time and I will answer it and will then conclude with a question of my own. Go ahead...

[justlookin]

No please do not quit. That is the easy thing to do. If you have something you think we ought to receive have the courage to stand behind it.

Ask me 1 question at a time and I will answer it and will then conclude with a question of my own. Go ahead...

I asked you the same question for several posts now. I'll try once more.

Are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water, i.e, baptism? If so, what does the birth of the Spirit produce, if not a child of God, and does your answer agree with Jesus teaching concerning Spirit birth?

[RJR]

I asked you the same question for several posts now. I'll try once more.

Are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water, i.e, baptism? If so, what does the birth of the Spirit produce, if not a child of God, and does your answer agree with Jesus teaching concerning Spirit birth?

Answer: Cornelius would have been lost, as lost as two homosexual men kissing, without being baptized in Jesus name. Acts 11:15, stated the angel had instructed him he had to do what Peter told him to be saved. If you would have answered one of my questions above, you would have to answer yes to the question "Did Peter command Cornelius to be baptized?" The Bible said Cornelius salvation was based upon doing what Peter said. Without doubt, God knew that Cornelius would comply based on the very fact Cornelius already had God's attention, thus the arrangement to have Peter go to his house, nothing doubting. However if the infilling of the Spirit is all there was to one's new birth why any further instructions? Baptism was not an added instruction to bring about any other additional virtue beyond one's new birth. There would be absolutely no need of baptism if your claim is valid. To command Cornelius to be baptized would be akin to asking Cornelius to go be born of his mother. Acts 10:47, Peter said "can any man forbid water...And he commanded him to be baptized. He did not suggest, kindly encourage, it was an imperative. Why because it fits the pattern of water and spirit new birth, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:15-16, Acts 19:5-6, Rom 6:3-4, 1 John 5:8!

Question: based on 1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Since there are three that bear witness in earth, the water, the Spirit, and the blood, and these three agree in one. What do these three agree in, in other words what is the one?

[justlookin]

Answer: Cornelius would have been lost, as lost as two homosexual men kissing, without being baptized in Jesus name. Acts 11:15, stated the angel had instructed him he had to do what Peter told him to be saved. If you would have answered one of my questions above, you would have to answer yes to the question "Did Peter command Cornelius to be baptized?" The Bible said Cornelius salvation was based upon doing what Peter said. Without doubt, God knew that Cornelius would comply based on the very fact Cornelius already had God's attention, thus the arrangement to have Peter go to his house, nothing doubting. However if the infilling of the Spirit is all there was to one's new birth why any further instructions? Baptism was not an added instruction to bring about any other additional virtue beyond one's new birth. There would be absolutely no need of baptism if your claim is valid. To command Cornelius to be baptized would be akin to asking Cornelius to go be born of his mother. Acts 10:47, Peter said "can any man forbid water...And he commanded him to be baptized. He did not suggest, kindly encourage, it was an imperative. Why because it fits the pattern of water and spirit new birth, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:15-16, Acts 19:5-6, Rom 6:3-4, 1 John 5:8!

Question: based on 1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Since there are three that bear witness in earth, the water, the Spirit, and the blood, and these three agree in one. What do these three agree in, in other words what is the one?

You again didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you about the salvation of Cornelius. Honestly, I don't have time for this.

Thanks for your participation.

[RJR]

I asked you the same question for several posts now. I'll try once more.

Are you suggesting that Spirit birth doesn't produce a child of God without also the birth of water, i.e, baptism? If so, what does the birth of the Spirit produce, if not a child of God, and does your answer agree with Jesus teaching concerning Spirit birth?

I am saying that there is more to one being born again than receiving the Holy Ghost as in the experience of Cornelius. If that is not the example you were referencing please show me which passage you had in mind.

I thought you had something we needed? Oh, and don't forget 1John 5:8!