View Full Version : Acts 2:38 plus, plus, plus!!!
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 01:56 PM
When I started talking to OP twenty years ago they told me I needed to obey Acts 2:38. So it took awhile but I was baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost baptism by the evidence of speaking in tongues.
But then they told me I had to believe that anyone who didn't follow Acts 2:38 was going to hell. I refused and said that anyone who wasn't obedient would answer to God.
To me it seemed they just wanted to keep adding more and more things to the "you have to this or your not saved" list. Eventually I was told that people who wear shorts go to hell to. To me that sounds ridiculous.
My point is that when something is (your strongest argument)your go to doctrine, you shouldn't have to add anything to it.
It sure seems the majority of the NT was written to people who had already experienced the New birth. I wonder if God missed the memo that says, after the new birth there is nothing to be said?
Aquila
03-11-2014, 02:12 PM
I firmly believe that the Acts 2:38 is the biblical application of the Gospel. However, there is far more to salvation than repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling. My experience has been that most Apostolic Pentecostals are largely un-studied when it comes to the doctrines of redemption. Acts 2:38 (repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling) is only one doctrine of redemption known as "Conversion". There is far more to this that we neglect. Here's a short list of doctrines regarding the larger doctrine of redemption:
1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved)
2. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the law for the Elect)
3. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against the sins of the Elect - past, present, future)
4. The Gospel call (inner and outer call of God/Prevenient Grace)
5. Conversion (faith and repentance)
6. Justification (right legal standing/Imputed Righteousness)
7. Regeneration (being born again)
8. Adoption (membership in God's family)
9. Sanctification (right conduct in life leading to Christlikeness)
10. Perseverance (remaining a Christian)
11. Death (going to be with the Lord)
12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)
Each doctrine above adds a different biblical perspective or dimension to our salvation. Notice... silly legalisms aren't a part of it.
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 02:17 PM
It sure seems the majority of the NT was written to people who had already experienced the New birth. I wonder if God missed the memo that says, after the new birth there is nothing to be said?
I think there is a lot to be said. But if Acts 2:38 is your go to verse about salvation, why would you have to ad to it?
If I offend someone by wearing shorts, two or three brothers are supposed to come to me in love and try help me see the way to correct myself.
What in the bible do I have to believe or I am going to hell?
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 02:27 PM
The OP chose how to phrase their statement "you have to believe anyone who doesn't follow Acts 2:38 is going to hell".
If they would have said "in error" "lost" or "in need of corection" I might have agreed.
If it was good enough for God to put it in the bible why do we take something in one part of the bible and put it with this from that part of the bible and throw in a little from whey over here in the bible and then make our own conclusion?
FlamingZword
03-11-2014, 02:27 PM
It sure seems the majority of the NT was written to people who had already experienced the New birth. I wonder if God missed the memo that says, after the new birth there is nothing to be said?
Acts 2:38 is for salvation, that is it nothing else can be added to it.
The rest are instructions written for our growth, not for our salvation.
Salvation is one thing, growth is another thing.
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 02:28 PM
Acts 2:38 is for salvation, that is it nothing else can be added to it.
The rest are instructions written for our growth, not for our salvation.
Salvation is one thing, growth is another thing.
:thumbsup
FlamingZword
03-11-2014, 02:31 PM
When I started talking to OP twenty years ago they told me I needed to obey Acts 2:38. So it took awhile but I was baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost baptism by the evidence of speaking in tongues.
But then they told me I had to believe that anyone who didn't follow Acts 2:38 was going to hell. I refused and said that anyone who wasn't obedient would answer to God.
To me it seemed they just wanted to keep adding more and more things to the "you have to this or your not saved" list. Eventually I was told that people who wear shorts go to hell to. To me that sounds ridiculous.
My point is that when something is (your strongest argument)your go to doctrine, you shouldn't have to add anything to it.
Those people must really have some great power that they are able to send people to hell for things that the Bible does not even speak about, unless I missed the verse where the Bible mentions shorts. :spit
FlamingZword
03-11-2014, 02:44 PM
I firmly believe that the Acts 2:38 is the biblical application of the Gospel. However, there is far more to salvation than repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling. My experience has been that most Apostolic Pentecostals are largely un-studied when it comes to the doctrines of redemption. Acts 2:38 (repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling) is only one doctrine of redemption known as "Conversion". There is far more to this that we neglect. Here's a short list of doctrines regarding the larger doctrine of redemption:
1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved)
2. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the law for the Elect)
3. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against the sins of the Elect - past, present, future)
4. The Gospel call (inner and outer call of God/Prevenient Grace)
5. Conversion (faith and repentance)
6. Justification (right legal standing/Imputed Righteousness)
7. Regeneration (being born again)
8. Adoption (membership in God's family)
9. Sanctification (right conduct in life leading to Christlikeness)
10. Perseverance (remaining a Christian)
11. Death (going to be with the Lord)
12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)
Each doctrine above adds a different biblical perspective or dimension to our salvation. Notice... silly legalisms aren't a part of it.
Bro Aquila I believe you are right, we need to preach those things, however you must realize that most OP churches haven't got past the Acts 2:38 message, somehow they feel that if that verse is not mentioned, then it was not a good church service.
They would be severely disappointed with me since I have preached many sermons without ever mentioning Acts 2:38.
Eph 2:8.. ..For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Th 2:16.. ..Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13..But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Oh, and while this is not all, don't forget...
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Praxeas
03-11-2014, 04:47 PM
When I started talking to OP twenty years ago they told me I needed to obey Acts 2:38. So it took awhile but I was baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost baptism by the evidence of speaking in tongues.
But then they told me I had to believe that anyone who didn't follow Acts 2:38 was going to hell. I refused and said that anyone who wasn't obedient would answer to God.
To me it seemed they just wanted to keep adding more and more things to the "you have to this or your not saved" list. Eventually I was told that people who wear shorts go to hell to. To me that sounds ridiculous.
My point is that when something is (your strongest argument)your go to doctrine, you shouldn't have to add anything to it.
Wait..let me get this straight..they said unless you believe everyone else is going to hell you are not saved?
Wow...that's a new one to me. Never heard that. What church was this?
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 04:50 PM
RJR, I know what you are saying. But my point is why add something to your go to scripture. If John 3:16 is your go to scripture, if it is your best argument for the point you are making, why would you add to it?
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Wait..let me get this straight..they said unless you believe everyone else is going to hell you are not saved?
Wow...that's a new one to me. Never heard that. What church was this?
I won't name names Praxeas. UPCI though.
justlookin
03-11-2014, 04:52 PM
When I started talking to OP twenty years ago they told me I needed to obey Acts 2:38. So it took awhile but I was baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost baptism by the evidence of speaking in tongues.
But then they told me I had to believe that anyone who didn't follow Acts 2:38 was going to hell. I refused and said that anyone who wasn't obedient would answer to God.
To me it seemed they just wanted to keep adding more and more things to the "you have to this or your not saved" list. Eventually I was told that people who wear shorts go to hell to. To me that sounds ridiculous.
My point is that when something is (your strongest argument)your go to doctrine, you shouldn't have to add anything to it.
True. My go to doctrine is simply trust the words of Jesus. But that's just me.
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 04:53 PM
Seriously, this hasn't happened to nobody else?
RJR, I know what you are saying. But my point is why add something to your go to scripture. If John 3:16 is your go to scripture, if it is your best argument for the point you are making, why would add to it?
Why not, obedience to the word is important period? if one phrase was all that was necessary we have how many verses and chapters that are an exercise in futility. There is a reason Paul said he did not shun to declare unto them ALL the counsel of God, he wanted to be pure from the blood of all men, Acts 20:26-27. The scripture states as listed a few moments ago, it is because the received not THE LOVE of THE TRUTH, (not a love of a truth) that they might be saved, 2 Thes. 2:10.
Why put a penknife to it like they did in Jeremiah's day and act as if one part you will save while the others you do not like can be thrown into the hearth?
The WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth!
Originalist
03-11-2014, 05:17 PM
But then they told me I had to believe that anyone who didn't follow Acts 2:38 was going to hell. I refused and said that anyone who wasn't obedient would answer to God.
Since 1992 I've never heard anyone in the UPCI say that you had to believe everybody who has not obeyed Acts 2:38 to the letter is going to hell.
I've heard a few say everybody who has not obeyed Acts 2:38 to the letter is going to hell, but I've never heard anyone try to require that others believe that. However, I have no doubt your story is true.
KeptByTheWord
03-11-2014, 07:44 PM
Even though people believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe in Acts 2:38, most won't openly condemn you, but.... it is still an unspoken understanding, that unless you are apostolic/AMF/UPCI through to the bone, complete with all the standards, there is a special place in hell reserved with your name on it... although most won't go so far to say that, but they do think it, and would say so, if questioned deeper about it.
Disciple4life
03-11-2014, 08:33 PM
Even though people believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe in Acts 2:38, most won't openly condemn you, but.... it is still an unspoken understanding, that unless you are apostolic/AMF/UPCI through to the bone, complete with all the standards, there is a special place in hell reserved with your name on it... although most won't go so far to say that, but they do think it, and would say so, if questioned deeper about it.
Most times "lost" gets thrown in instead of hell.
The original bible answer man tried to corner Urshan in the famous debate. I seem to remember Urshan saying that all of the UPCI literature said "lost".
MissBrattified
03-11-2014, 10:09 PM
Acts 2:38 is for salvation, that is it nothing else can be added to it.
The rest are instructions written for our growth, not for our salvation.
Salvation is one thing, growth is another thing.
:thumbsup
MissBrattified
03-11-2014, 10:13 PM
Even though people believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe in Acts 2:38, most won't openly condemn you, but.... it is still an unspoken understanding, that unless you are apostolic/AMF/UPCI through to the bone, complete with all the standards, there is a special place in hell reserved with your name on it... although most won't go so far to say that, but they do think it, and would say so, if questioned deeper about it.
On principle, isn't this the case for every Christian denomination, though? Most believe that you must be saved or you will be lost, and they have various ideas about how one is saved. That isn't unique to Apostolics. Pretty much, if you believe you know what one must do to be "saved", then it follows that you also believe that if they do not do whatever it requires, they will be lost.
justlookin
03-11-2014, 10:16 PM
On principle, isn't this the case for every Christian denomination, though? Most believe that you must be saved or you will be lost, and they have various ideas about how one is saved. That isn't unique to Apostolics. Pretty much, if you believe you know what one must do to be "saved", then it follows that you also believe that if they do not do whatever it requires, they will be lost.
This is true. Almost all Christian denominations have a minimum requirement to miss hell. Except for the Universalists of course.
kclee4jc
03-12-2014, 06:29 AM
I am just as conservative as I have ever been on salvific and holiness issues.(just for the benefit of anyone who would question that-no holywood, long-sleeves, no jewelry, short-hair for me uncut for ladies....etc.)
I believe in a conservative holiness standard and I believe that when it is done out of true consecration of the heart, that it is pleasing to God. I believe that Acts 2:38 is the New Birth experience and is absolutely essential to be a part of the New Testament Church.
That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.
MissBrattified
03-12-2014, 06:46 AM
This is true. Almost all Christian denominations have a minimum requirement to miss hell. Except for the Universalists of course.
Yes, except for those pesky Universalists...who are obviously going to hell. :heeheehee
I am just as conservative as I have ever been on salvific and holiness issues.(just for the benefit of anyone who would question that-no holywood, long-sleeves, no jewelry, short-hair for me uncut for ladies....etc.)
I believe in a conservative holiness standard and I believe that when it is done out of true consecration of the heart, that it is pleasing to God. I believe that Acts 2:38 is the New Birth experience and is absolutely essential to be a part of the New Testament Church.
That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.
But what do you think about salvation? Obviously you stating what you think about salvation doesn't condemn or save anyone in actuality--only God can do that. So why be afraid to state your feelings on the matter? We all believe that something will send you to hell, right?
I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I'm a bit tired of other Christians trying to *shush* all the other Christians who want to state precisely what they believe or don't believe. It is quite possible that I've been guilty of that, too, with a misguided sense of gentility and compassion. Yes, I believe we should state the truth in love and be kind, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't state our beliefs for everyone to hear. In fact, if we truly believe, then we have an obligation to the Gospel to state it for everyone to hear.
Growing up in the church, I've heard many conversations that were peppered with, "So you think I'm going to hell?" or "So you think they're going to hell?" I still read and hear comments about how that stating definitive truths condemns that Christian or this one, but here's the deal:
1. We can't go back and save or condemn anyone who is already dead; they are in God's hands. No amount of stating any belief or renouncing any other belief actually condemns or saves millions of past Christians. Again, only God is their actual judge. Ergo, there is no harm in stating your beliefs, even if they are in conflict with centuries of traditional Christianity.
2. Stating what we believe right now is not only harmless, but obligatory. If you truly believe that you know what scripture says and means, then you have an obligation to share it with people who could potentially be lost from a lack of knowledge. While people who are already dead are in God's hands, people who are living today are, to some extent, in our hands. God has given us a commission, and I believe He will hold us accountable if we don't do our best to carry it out. That commission is teaching and baptizing. We aren't just instructed to share the Gospel message, either. Jesus said to teach people to observe all His commandments.
I guess I'm trying to say that I'm tired of the stigma surrounding stating absolutes and strong beliefs. As long as you speak the truth in love, you are harming no one by stating your beliefs, and, more importantly, there may be many people you will help. FTR, I didn't take your post to mean that you don't believe we should be witnesses; it segued into something I've been thinking about already. I believe Satan has shut the mouth of the church with the fear that we will condemn someone to hell. No worries, we don't have that power--so speaking about what we believe is perfectly acceptable.
Amanah
03-12-2014, 06:50 AM
That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.
I agree. And I might add: we do not know where people are at with God and how he is dealing with them. God forbid that we should cause an offense that would frustrate the wooing and conviction of the Holy Spirit.
My long-time pastor never used the "its Acts 2:38 or hell approach". He always used a very positive way of preaching. He would say this message will put you in the bride of Christ, so why settle for something less?
justlookin
03-12-2014, 11:03 AM
On the heaven or hell issue, isn't it one or the other? And if it's one or the other and dependent upon obedience to the gospel, shouldn't the required plan of salvation be preached that would assure a person heaven instead of hell? If it's the three stepper version of Acts 2:38 which is the required minimum to miss hell and attain heaven, shouldn't that be explicit in one's teaching, preaching? Shouldn't the pulpit be very very plain about the consequences?
Heaven or hell is a very serious and basic issue of Christianity. I understand not judging others, but not being forthright and plain is one of the major problems in the pulpits of America today, IMO. Sin not being preached, hell not being preached, judgement not being preached and this has watered down holiness (and I'm not speaking of close line standards) to a point where holiness is a lost concept, almost a dirty word to some.
If sin will cause one to miss heaven and go to hell that's serious and should be a frequent part of any gospel message, IMO.
Right. But shouldn't the message be a positive one? Its what we get, not what we don't get that should be the motivation.
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 11:33 AM
Yes, except for those pesky Universalists...who are obviously going to hell. :heeheehee
But what do you think about salvation? Obviously you stating what you think about salvation doesn't condemn or save anyone in actuality--only God can do that. So why be afraid to state your feelings on the matter? We all believe that something will send you to hell, right?
I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I'm a bit tired of other Christians trying to *shush* all the other Christians who want to state precisely what they believe or don't believe. It is quite possible that I've been guilty of that, too, with a misguided sense of gentility and compassion. Yes, I believe we should state the truth in love and be kind, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't state our beliefs for everyone to hear. In fact, if we truly believe, then we have an obligation to the Gospel to state it for everyone to hear.
Growing up in the church, I've heard many conversations that were peppered with, "So you think I'm going to hell?" or "So you think they're going to hell?" I still read and hear comments about how that stating definitive truths condemns that Christian or this one, but here's the deal:
1. We can't go back and save or condemn anyone who is already dead; they are in God's hands. No amount of stating any belief or renouncing any other belief actually condemns or saves millions of past Christians. Again, only God is their actual judge. Ergo, there is no harm in stating your beliefs, even if they are in conflict with centuries of traditional Christianity.
2. Stating what we believe right now is not only harmless, but obligatory. If you truly believe that you know what scripture says and means, then you have an obligation to share it with people who could potentially be lost from a lack of knowledge. While people who are already dead are in God's hands, people who are living today are, to some extent, in our hands. God has given us a commission, and I believe He will hold us accountable if we don't do our best to carry it out. That commission is teaching and baptizing. We aren't just instructed to share the Gospel message, either. Jesus said to teach people to observe all His commandments.
I guess I'm trying to say that I'm tired of the stigma surrounding stating absolutes and strong beliefs. As long as you speak the truth in love, you are harming no one by stating your beliefs, and, more importantly, there may be many people you will help. FTR, I didn't take your post to mean that you don't believe we should be witnesses; it segued into something I've been thinking about already. I believe Satan has shut the mouth of the church with the fear that we will condemn someone to hell. No worries, we don't have that power--so speaking about what we believe is perfectly acceptable.
Very good post, Bratti. I know what I believe and am not ashamed to speak out about it, if someone asks me.
One thing I do know - I would be prepared to be imprisoned over Acts 2:38 and my belief that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but I sure wouldn't go to jail over the standards issue. :heeheehee
justlookin
03-12-2014, 11:43 AM
Right. But shouldn't the message be a positive one? Its what we get, not what we don't get that should be the motivation.
Yes, by all means the message should be a positive one.
I grew up hearing a fear message, the stories about the person who walked out of the church during an altar call and got killed in a car wreck. Fear was the motivating factor which caused folks to go to the altar and it was effective to a point. Actually, thinking about that time, the power of God was more prevalent also.
I'm not suggesting that the fear message should be the motivational message for those needing salvation, but I am saying that the fear message also has it's place in the salvation message. One can be, and should be, positive in presenting heaven instead of hell, but the negative of the destination of the individual who rejects Christ should be preached also. There is a reality of heaven and there is a reality of hell. Both should be preached and the responsibility is then placed on the individual. Accept or reject, the choice is up to them.
It's a serious thing and needs serious preaching.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 12:06 PM
Yes, by all means the message should be a positive one.
I grew up hearing a fear message, the stories about the person who walked out of the church during an altar call and got killed in a car wreck. Fear was the motivating factor which caused folks to go to the altar and it was effective to a point. Actually, thinking about that time, the power of God was more prevalent also.
I'm not suggesting that the fear message should be the motivational message for those needing salvation, but I am saying that the fear message also has it's place in the salvation message. One can be, and should be, positive in presenting heaven instead of hell, but the negative of the destination of the individual who rejects Christ should be preached also. There is a reality of heaven and there is a reality of hell. Both should be preached and the responsibility is then placed on the individual. Accept or reject, the choice is up to them.
It's a serious thing and needs serious preaching.
We had an evangelist visit who was wearing red pants and had them turn off the lights while he preached about hell. An elderly man was so scared he wet his pants all over one of the pews.
justlookin
03-12-2014, 12:08 PM
We had an evangelist visit who was wearing red pants and had them turn off the lights while he preached about hell. An elderly man was so scared he wet his pants all over one of the pews.
Hope he went to the altar after all that. :heeheehee
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 12:11 PM
Hope he went to the altar after all that. :heeheehee
I think they left before altar call.
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 12:16 PM
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Do you think that we could view the first part of Jude 1:23 as also relating to Galatians 6:1? That is what comes to mind when I read, "save with fear".
"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Galatians 6:1
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus began to say this unto his disciples first of all, Luke 12:1...
Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Why not, obedience to the word is important period? if one phrase was all that was necessary we have how many verses and chapters that are an exercise in futility. There is a reason Paul said he did not shun to declare unto them ALL the counsel of God, he wanted to be pure from the blood of all men, Acts 20:26-27. The scripture states as listed a few moments ago, it is because the received not THE LOVE of THE TRUTH, (not a love of a truth) that they might be saved, 2 Thes. 2:10.
Why put a penknife to it like they did in Jeremiah's day and act as if one part you will save while the others you do not like can be thrown into the hearth?
The WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth!
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 12:54 PM
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Do you think that we could view the first part of Jude 1:23 as also relating to Galatians 6:1? That is what comes to mind when I read, "save with fear".
"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Galatians 6:1
*Bump* for RJR...
*Bump* for RJR...
I do think we need to carefully consider ourselves when also helping others. It certainly does have its applications. However, I truly think these other verses that I have provided have more of a parallel focus to the passage in Jude than Gal. 6:1.
Pressing-On
03-12-2014, 01:26 PM
I do think we need to carefully consider ourselves when also helping others. It certainly does have its applications. However, I truly think these other verses that I have provided have more of a parallel focus to the passage in Jude than Gal. 6:1.
I was reading Jude 1:23 in the NLT - "Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives."
I will study more, for now, I am looking at verse 21, "In this way, you will keep yourselves safe in God’s love." It just appears that he is concerned with us keeping ourselves while dealing with others.
I'll look at it again.
This is along the same subject Votive Soul was discussing on another thread about the parable of the tares. I always wondered if Jude 23 had a current application besides just the concept of saving others from the future flames of judgment. Looking forward to your ideas.
chad87
03-12-2014, 03:25 PM
Bro Aquila I believe you are right, we need to preach those things, however you must realize that most OP churches haven't got past the Acts 2:38 message, somehow they feel that if that verse is not mentioned, then it was not a good church service.
They would be severely disappointed with me since I have preached many sermons without ever mentioning Acts 2:38.
Lately I've come to notice that my church's sermons consist of Acts 2:38, dispensational eschatology, or the "come get your miracle" sermon. This is literally 90% of all sermons. Often there is a slight Word of Faith vibe in these sermons. :irate It's embarassing how little is taught through the average UPC pulpit.
I gave this opinion to my wife a few weeks ago and you should have seen the disgust on her face. :heeheehee
FlamingZword
03-13-2014, 02:18 PM
Lately I've come to notice that my church's sermons consist of Acts 2:38, dispensational eschatology, or the "come get your miracle" sermon. This is literally 90% of all sermons. Often there is a slight Word of Faith vibe in these sermons. :irate It's embarassing how little is taught through the average UPC pulpit.
I gave this opinion to my wife a few weeks ago and you should have seen the disgust on her face. :heeheehee
That is my point.
Do we eat the exact same meal every day?
hopefully not, for we need a variety of foods to keep healthy. When a person eats too much of the same food, eventually deficiency problems develop.
That is the problem with many OP people, their preachers feed them the same meal over and over again. No wonder so many of them are stunted in their spiritual growth.
I love beans, but I do not eat beans at every meal or even everyday.
That is my point.
Do we eat the exact same meal every day?
hopefully not, for we need a variety of foods to keep healthy. When a person eats too much of the same food, eventually deficiency problems develop.
That is the problem with many OP people, their preachers feed them the same meal over and over again. No wonder so many of them are stunted in their spiritual growth.
I love beans, but I do not eat beans at every meal or even everyday.
A fact that i am sure make those around you very happy :eeeew lol
Sorry i couldn't resist
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 06:52 PM
Acts 2:38 is for salvation, that is it nothing else can be added to it.
The rest are instructions written for our growth, not for our salvation.
Salvation is one thing, growth is another thing.
Yeah but if you don't grow, you die.
Meaning, if you don't accept the cookie-cutter standards that are so important but yet different from church to church, then you are backsliding, already backslidden, rebelious, or never saved from the giddyup.
Been there, done that-- even passed judgment on others myself-- I have since repented of that.
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 06:57 PM
Seriously, this hasn't happened to nobody else?
It happened to me, down at the altar actually, of the church I used to attend. A brother who is dear to me, his wife a tremendous prayer warrior, tried to paint me in a corner about believing that people could be saved who had not "obeyed Acts 2:38".
After I told him that I don't believe that people will go to hell for not obeying Acts 2:38, he pretty much questioned my own salvation.
I don't say this sarcastically, but I know he honestly meant well, and that he wouldn't purposefully offend me. But for him, he was standing for truth and I wasn't.
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 06:59 PM
Even though people believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe in Acts 2:38, most won't openly condemn you, but.... it is still an unspoken understanding, that unless you are apostolic/AMF/UPCI through to the bone, complete with all the standards, there is a special place in hell reserved with your name on it... although most won't go so far to say that, but they do think it, and would say so, if questioned deeper about it.
Especially if they think they are sure of the company they are with at the time of the conversation.
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 07:02 PM
On principle, isn't this the case for every Christian denomination, though? Most believe that you must be saved or you will be lost, and they have various ideas about how one is saved. That isn't unique to Apostolics. Pretty much, if you believe you know what one must do to be "saved", then it follows that you also believe that if they do not do whatever it requires, they will be lost.
No this is not true.
Most other non-Apostolic Pentecostals I know of do not believe that non-tongue talkers will go to hell because they never spoke in tongues.
Baptist theology doesn't preclude Methodists from eternal life.
Does Church of Christ think their lack of music is a salvational issue for all others?
justlookin
03-13-2014, 07:12 PM
Does Church of Christ think their lack of music is a salvational issue for all others?
I'm not sure, but wouldn't a Church of Christ person have the view that a non baptized person would be lost? Somewhere in the Church of Christ theology, as well as most other Christian denominations, there is a point of salvation and a point of damnation.
Disciple4life
03-13-2014, 07:18 PM
My point is kind of being pushed to the side. Once you are obedient to get saved regardless of the standard you are saved. How do you add something to that standard? You don't, you don't add to scriptures.
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 07:19 PM
I'm not sure, but wouldn't a Church of Christ person have the view that a non baptized person would be lost? Somewhere in the Church of Christ theology, as well as most other Christian denominations, there is a point of salvation and a point of damnation.
Even if that was true for Church of Christ, no one is debating that everyone has a point of salvation or damnation.
The point is Apostolic theology doesn't allow for anyone else to be saved except for them, and in some towns and cities, if you are not a part of the right Apostolic church, you're still lost.
Jermyn Davidson
03-13-2014, 07:23 PM
My point is kind of being pushed to the side. Once you are obedient to get saved regardless of the standard you are saved. How do you add something to that standard? You don't, you don't add to scriptures.
But the Apostolics don't add to scripture, they add to your understanding.
After all, "holiness without..."
The thing is, holiness is commanded, but by the time they're done with you, you're either a modern-day pharisee, bitter but obedient, or you've left completely backslidden and twice the devil you were before you ever met them.
I've seen it repeatedly.
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