My Talk With God:

[Aquila]

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila,

This is YOU not Jesus. Its the same thing you have posted here for some time. Please for your sake and those who listen to you get into the scriptures.

[KeptByTheWord]

Aquila, I found the Lord saying the last part of your written words to me... today.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

This sums it up, perfectly, I believe, what the Lord has called us to do. Not our will, but His will. Surrender, and obedience will go hand in hand with our love for Him.

[Aquila]

Aquila,

This is YOU not Jesus. Its the same thing you have posted here for some time. Please for your sake and those who listen to you get into the scriptures.

Yes, this was something that happened some time back (but within the past year). I'm just feeling secure enough to share it now.

Was this God, my imagination, or another source? I certainly felt the Holy Spirit moving as the words poured into my heart and mind. So, after this encounter I researched the Scriptures and found these texts which express the very thought behind what I was feeling God saying to me in the Spirit:

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Matthew 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Luke 11:46
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.



John 15:1-12
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 6:17
English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

John 14:20 (ESV)
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

John 17:11
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:22
The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

Was it really "God" talking to me? I do know that the statement appears to be irrefutable in it's logic. This encounter has forever changed the way I view the Christian life. If it was God, nothing can stop this message of truly being a vessel of God's love and grace. And if it wasn't God, it will be a temporary fascination and fall to the wayside. I offer it here in the hopes it helps someone.

God bless.

[Aquila]

I love the statement that God spoke to me here,

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man.

If this isn't pure and unadulterated in it's truth and logic, I don't know what is. Every single legalist or religionist seems to have a list. It's so true. They all believe their list is from God, but each has a different list. LOL!

Thank you Jesus for the truth that sets men FREE!

[Aquila]

I can really appreciate this statement too!

Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

Sums it up so very well,

"Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s." Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

[Aquila]

Was it just me?


Matthew 10:20
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

We should allow Him to speak through us more often. Bantering about the Scriptures is simply taking Scripture, aligning it with our "list" (as I believe God described it) and arguing for our own opinion. But... who can refute the very words of the Father residing in us as it pours forth in word of knowledge, word of wisdom, or prophesy?

[Timmy]

Aquila,

This is YOU not Jesus. Its the same thing you have posted here for some time. Please for your sake and those who listen to you get into the scriptures.

How God ever talked to you?

[KeptByTheWord]

Jesus has called us to follow, imitate, and become like Him. The basics of what you are saying is truth. In the end, we are all probably going to have some doctrine that is not quite right. We see through a glass darkly. Some things we think we surely understand, but some day we may discover that what we thought we understood, really was not so.

But, what we will be judged upon is not the exact understanding, or knowledge that we had, but how closely we attained to becoming the image of Jesus Christ. Judgement day will consist of the judgment of our heart motives, and desires, and how our hearts aligned to the teachings of Christ.

Jesus ushered in a kingdom of love. A kingdom where love rules and reigns. A kingdom where you count it an honor to suffer for Christ, a kingdom where you give until you have nothing left to give. A kingdom where being a servant is the highest calling. A kingdom where the heart's greatest treasures are not of the world we exist in, but in the world to come. A kingdom that calls upon each one to die. A death to self, flesh, and sin. A call to become one with Christ, which means: His will, not ours. When we become one in fellowship with Christ, obedience out of love becomes the law in our hearts.

God help us all to understand the kingdom of Jesus is upside down to the world's standards. His kingdom wealth is not in finances, beauty, fame, or health. His kingdom wealth is in suffering, loving, sacrificing, obedience, giving, sharing, dying. These are the things that become treasures in heaven. How rich are we in the light of these heavenly treasures? How much have we suffered? How much have we loved? How much have we given away? How much have we died out to self? These are the things that bring rewards in God's kingdom.

God help us all to realize that love is the greatest key to the kingdom of heaven. Love of God, and love for one another. By those two commandments, will our lives be measured. It is a standard that that our flesh doesn't want to obey, and seeks to circumvent in all ways possible. Our flesh seeks to find an easier way, the prosperity gospel way, the legalistic doctrine way, the mega grace way... but there is only one real way.

It is falling in love with Jesus, and having the image of Jesus burned on our hearts and minds so indelibly that we seek to imitate Him, love like Him, live like Him, and if necessary, be willing to die as He did. This is the love Jesus spoke of, and this is the love that must be a living force in our lives, if we want to reign with Jesus in eternity.

[Michael The Disciple]

Was Jesus a legalistic Pharisee? Remember that long list of do's and donts he commanded his disciples?

Read Matthew 5-7 sometime.

[endtimer]

But, but, but lists make us feel comfortable, safe and saved... You are speaking right to the very thing that God has been showing me. We love lists. They are easy to get familiar with, check off and find comfort. God is calling us away from our lists and into the ragged edge of the unknown parts of His spirit. This makes the traditional folk very uncomfortable. I'm not talking about getting out of the Book, there is plenty of depth to its truths to explore. We've only scratched the surface if what it means to be sons and heirs to a mighty God. I better stop before I issue an altar call. Ha ha . This thread stirs me. Thanks for posting this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Some of us don't look at the teachings of Christ as mere "lists". His words are spirit and they are life.

[ILG]

I pretty much agree, Aquila. I have felt God leading me into a path that simply does not judge. Even when people do things I dislike or disagree with, that to me might be wrong, I don't know where they are in their walk or journey. I have no right to judge them. I can pray for them and hope they find their way, which may or may not be what I deem to be right or correct. Faith is a journey.

[justlookin]

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

Awesome. Thanks for sharing that.

[KeptByTheWord]

Was Jesus a legalistic Pharisee? Remember that long list of do's and donts he commanded his disciples?

Read Matthew 5-7 sometime.

And what were Jesus' teachings in Matthew 5-7 directed at? The heart, and were simply teachings of how to love God and one another. They weren't so much legalistic dos and donts directed at outward behavior, as they were dealing with issues stemming straight from the heart. I believe this is exactly what Aquila is trying to say. Unless we act in love, all of our outward dos, and don'ts will only equal the Pharisees, and Jesus said that our righteousness must be greater than that of the Pharisees. Matt. 5:20

[Timmy]

Some of us don't look at the teachings of Christ as mere "lists". His words are spirit and they are life.

Has God ever talked to you?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Some of us don't look at the teachings of Christ as mere "lists". His words are spirit and they are life.

Some of us add to the teachings of Christ, with good intentions of course, but some of us do add.

Eve added to God's command, right before she broke it.

[votivesoul]

Whenever a believer in Messiah Jesus speaks or writes on His behalf, especially in the first person, as though the Lord was speaking through the person, they are, at the very least, implying that they are a prophet. And at the very most, they are outright proclaiming themselves to be such, for this is the best, most literal definition of a prophet: a mouthpiece or spokesperson for God.

And since the original poster has written to us in first person what he claims are the words of the Lord Jesus, then we must, WE MUST, apply the Spirit-inspired principles that govern what we, as Christ's Body, are supposed to do when a prophet or "prophet" speaks, which is this:

1 Corinthians 14:29,

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

The prophet has permission to speak (or in this case write), but the contents of his or her message must be submitted to others for the purpose of judging what was said/written, to either authenticate or dismiss the message.

Aquila has done this much, and is to be commended for allowing others to judge what he claims is a "word from the Lord".

With all that being said, for whatever it is worth, I give my judgment...

After reading just the first few statements, I was convinced that what I was reading was not something the Lord would say. I quote:

My child...each of you think that I authored your respective lists.

For this point forward, much was made against the idea of "lists".

I have to say it: God is the one that creates lists, especially lists of "do's and don'ts".

Note the following lists authored by God:

1.) The Decalogue, or Ten Commandments

Moses, under inspiration, even calls them the "Ten Commandments" (See Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, and 10:4).

This list was created, compiled, and commanded into existence by the LORD.

2.) The six things the LORD hates, with the seventh making for an abomination:

Proverbs 6:16-19,

16. These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Here, another very obvious list is generated by our God. These items are enumerated and given in a specific order, the very definition of a list.

3.) The Genealogies (See 1 Chronicles 1-9).

God inspired nine chapters worth of lists of who's who in His Word!

4.) A sampling of the varied works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21,

19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

5.) What becomes of people who are given over to uncleanness by God and ought to be considered reprobates:

Romans 1:28-32,

28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Another Holy Spirit-inspired, God-derived "list".

These five items are but a mere demonstration of just how much our Savior is into "lists". I do not see how Yeshua, then, through the Spirit, would condemn us for generating lists, especially lists that separate and divide, and make an obvious distinction between what is and is not righteous.

For example, works of the flesh are "don'ts". Do we all agree?

So, from that point forward, since the opening statements, in my opinion, seem contrary to the revealed appreciation God has for making lists, I think we can conclude that the Lord would not have said what is claimed He said.

And if the opening statements then are, at the least, suspect, and at the most, outright contradictions, how much more of the contents can be trusted?

I have no personal vendetta against Aquila, nor wish to publicly argue and fight over whether "thus saith the Lord".

As the Lord said in John 5:30,

30. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

As I read the original post, I judged. I for one believe my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will in this. I only want for God's will to be done in this matter.

Did the Lord speak to our brother?

All I can say is what he himself said:

...it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words...

Even the author admits to having to paraphrase and apply an interpretation to the "block of emotions" he received.

Perhaps the Lord was speaking, and did convey, through a "block of emotions" a message to Aquila. I will not say against it. But we have a right, even a duty to question the interpretational paraphrasing by which the "block of emotions" has been presented.

I submit then, that, even if the Lord was communicating, the message may have been mis-understood or not received properly.

More than that, I cannot say. But, since we are commanded by the Holy Scriptures to judge prophetic utterances, I have at least, done my part to give my judgment. In this case, it happens to be against what was shared.

Some have taken heart and received what Aquila wrote. I do not say you are wrong and I am right. But I do exhort all of us to sincerely compare everything that was written to the Word and consider what I've shared here thoroughly, before any possible, lasting damage is done.

Lord, correct your servant if I have come against you!

[votivesoul]

Other verses for our consideration:

Ezekiel 22:26,

26. ...they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean...

God was upset with His priesthood for not doing this. It is the same God over both Covenants. God still cares about separation between what He considers holy/clean and what He considered profane/unclean.

Here's proof:

Ezekiel 44:23,

23. And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

This is future tense, prophetic language, which is supposed to come to fruition during the era of Ezekiel's vision, i.e. the era of New Jerusalem, or the New Covenant church.

There is no way we can, as New Covenant priests unto God, fulfill our duties to Him if we do not, in some way, make moral distinctions between saved and lost, holy and unholy, Godly and ungodly.

There is only one way to do this: lists.

We may argue and mangle the lists sometimes, and I don't for a second think that any one human has got it all figured out perfectly. But nor do I for one second think that the Lord would have any umbrage with His people trying to their best to do exactly what He commands us to do, even though we at times fail.

Galatians 1:6-9,

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

However we take these verses, the fact remains that some have become accursed. God has anathematized them for preaching another Gospel.

The Gospel, by its very definition, must include an application, or else it cannot be obeyed. So any preaching of a so-called Gospel, that either mis-represents what the Gospel proper is, or does not give the Biblical application, by default, is "another Gospel". Those who preach such, even if they are an angel from heaven, or even if they do so ignorantly, are accursed.

Notice I said nothing about Acts 2:38. I didn't even mention 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 until just now. But the principle, whatever personal feelings and beliefs we have on the matter, is still true.

This means that another separation must be made, a "list" of who is and who is not preaching the accepted Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:17-18,

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

This verse has no application whatsoever if it is not obeyed literally to the letter. A "list" must be generated by the Church of the Living God of who is and who is not marked. These schismatics must be pointed out to the rest of Body.

This is a division that God Himself causes. Paul, by the Lord Jesus, commanded that the fornicator in Corinth be ex-communicated (1 Corinthians 5). This means the fornicator had to be publicly acknowledged as fallen and recognized for his sin in front of the whole assembly, humiliated, and cast out.

It is our sovereign duty to obey the Word of God in such matters. This isn't a matter of "religions", this is a matter of eternal salvation.

Finally, Matthew 25:31-33,

31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

In the rest of the parable, the Lord gives us the criteria for determining who is a sheep and who is a goat. Why would the Lord do this unless He wants us to be able to tell the difference, i.e. judge and so separate, the one from the other?

We are warned of "false prophets", "false brethren", and even "false apostles". We have to be able to tell the difference between the real and the fake. The only way we can do this is by doing the very thing Aquila said the Lord said divides us.

Is it wrong that the "one faith" of Jesus Christ has become so fractured and damaged? Yes! It is wrong. Is it our fault that this is the case? Well, it's not His fault, is it?

But we can't just simply embrace everyone and everything that says it's of Christ, simply for the saying. We have to reject much that comes across our path. Remember the words of our Savior:

If any man say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or lo, there is Christ, believe him not!

We are commanded to reject out of hand many, many people, ideologies, doctrines, values, and beliefs. Ecumenicism is not from God.

So even though we often make a mess of things, and don't always do right, the fact that some are sincerely and genuinely trying their very best to be led by the Spirit to obey these cardinal teachings, even if it means division, is laudable to say the least.

There is a reason, after all, why Christ gave us gifts after He ascended to heaven. They are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry until we all come into the unity of the faith. The Lord knew (and knows) without these gifts, there is no true unity, which is to say, dis-unity is the starting point.

[crakjak]

Aquila,
I accept your post in the spirit in which it is presented. Do I believe God was speaking to you? Yes. Does this mean you were able to interpret perfectly what He was communicating with you. NO. But what you present is very important, and is a very important word that believers need to hear, and to change how we process our view of God and of His purposes in the earth.
As you presented, believer's view of God, who is Love, is so distorted that spiritual growth is stunted, and the church cannot be "perfected" because we do not KNOW Him as He really is!!
If one believes God is hateful and will torture His creation endlessly unless they "get it just right" then that one is justified in his hatefulness. Just as Calvin and some of the early "church fathers" felt justified in burning some at the stake that they disagreed with. God is going to burn them anyway...

God is Love and man is the highest focus of His love, the whole of creation and the cosmos is for humanity!! God loves sinners, Jesus died for sinners, and in the end He will not leave any in their sin.

I know I sound like a broken record, but how on earth can one justify the hateful, and cruelty of religion's view of God, and believe that God who has all powerful, is defeated by man's "freewill" or his sin?

No matter how sinful one is, Jesus paid the price for every sin, and if the debt is paid, why is it still on the books???? Oh, the glorious gospel is truly Good News!!!

[crakjak]

Other verses for our consideration:

Ezekiel 22:26,



God was upset with His priesthood for not doing this. It is the same God over both Covenants. God still cares about separation between what He considers holy/clean and what He considered profane/unclean.

Here's proof:

Ezekiel 44:23,



This is future tense, prophetic language, which is supposed to come to fruition during the era of Ezekiel's vision, i.e. the era of New Jerusalem, or the New Covenant church.

There is no way we can, as New Covenant priests unto God, fulfill our duties to Him if we do not, in some way, make moral distinctions between saved and lost, holy and unholy, Godly and ungodly.

There is only one way to do this: lists.

We may argue and mangle the lists sometimes, and I don't for a second think that any one human has got it all figured out perfectly. But nor do I for one second think that the Lord would have any umbrage with His people trying to their best to do exactly what He commands us to do, even though we at times fail.

Galatians 1:6-9,



However we take these verses, the fact remains that some have become accursed. God has anathematized them for preaching another Gospel.

The Gospel, by its very definition, must include an application, or else it cannot be obeyed. So any preaching of a so-called Gospel, that either mis-represents what the Gospel proper is, or does not give the Biblical application, by default, is "another Gospel". Those who preach such, even if they are an angel from heaven, or even if they do so ignorantly, are accursed.

Notice I said nothing about Acts 2:38. I didn't even mention 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 until just now. But the principle, whatever personal feelings and beliefs we have on the matter, is still true.

This means that another separation must be made, a "list" of who is and who is not preaching the accepted Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:17-18,



This verse has no application whatsoever if it is not obeyed literally to the letter. A "list" must be generated by the Church of the Living God of who is and who is not marked. These schismatics must be pointed out to the rest of Body.

This is a division that God Himself causes. Paul, by the Lord Jesus, commanded that the fornicator in Corinth be ex-communicated (1 Corinthians 5). This means the fornicator had to be publicly acknowledged as fallen and recognized for his sin in front of the whole assembly, humiliated, and cast out.

It is our sovereign duty to obey the Word of God in such matters. This isn't a matter of "religions", this is a matter of eternal salvation.

Finally, Matthew 25:31-33,



In the rest of the parable, the Lord gives us the criteria for determining who is a sheep and who is a goat. Why would the Lord do this unless He wants us to be able to tell the difference, i.e. judge and so separate, the one from the other?

We are warned of "false prophets", "false brethren", and even "false apostles". We have to be able to tell the difference between the real and the fake. The only way we can do this is by doing the very thing Aquila said the Lord said divides us.

Is it wrong that the "one faith" of Jesus Christ has become so fractured and damaged? Yes! It is wrong. Is it our fault that this is the case? Well, it's not His fault, is it?

But we can't just simply embrace everyone and everything that says it's of Christ, simply for the saying. We have to reject much that comes across our path. Remember the words of our Savior:

If any man say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or lo, there is Christ, believe him not!

We are commanded to reject out of hand many, many people, ideologies, doctrines, values, and beliefs. Ecumenicism is not from God.

So even though we often make a mess of things, and don't always do right, the fact that some are sincerely and genuinely trying their very best to be led by the Spirit to obey these cardinal teachings, even if it means division, is laudable to say the least.

There is a reason, after all, why Christ gave us gifts after He ascended to heaven. They are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry until we all come into the unity of the faith. The Lord knew (and knows) without these gifts, there is no true unity, which is to say, dis-unity is the starting point.

So how is this (bolded) working out for the church or the world??? I don't believe the church is using the gifts very effectively.

[KeptByTheWord]

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

[Aquila]

Jesus has called us to follow, imitate, and become like Him. The basics of what you are saying is truth. In the end, we are all probably going to have some doctrine that is not quite right. We see through a glass darkly. Some things we think we surely understand, but some day we may discover that what we thought we understood, really was not so.

But, what we will be judged upon is not the exact understanding, or knowledge that we had, but how closely we attained to becoming the image of Jesus Christ. Judgement day will consist of the judgment of our heart motives, and desires, and how our hearts aligned to the teachings of Christ.

Jesus ushered in a kingdom of love. A kingdom where love rules and reigns. A kingdom where you count it an honor to suffer for Christ, a kingdom where you give until you have nothing left to give. A kingdom where being a servant is the highest calling. A kingdom where the heart's greatest treasures are not of the world we exist in, but in the world to come. A kingdom that calls upon each one to die. A death to self, flesh, and sin. A call to become one with Christ, which means: His will, not ours. When we become one in fellowship with Christ, obedience out of love becomes the law in our hearts.

God help us all to understand the kingdom of Jesus is upside down to the world's standards. His kingdom wealth is not in finances, beauty, fame, or health. His kingdom wealth is in suffering, loving, sacrificing, obedience, giving, sharing, dying. These are the things that become treasures in heaven. How rich are we in the light of these heavenly treasures? How much have we suffered? How much have we loved? How much have we given away? How much have we died out to self? These are the things that bring rewards in God's kingdom.

God help us all to realize that love is the greatest key to the kingdom of heaven. Love of God, and love for one another. By those two commandments, will our lives be measured. It is a standard that that our flesh doesn't want to obey, and seeks to circumvent in all ways possible. Our flesh seeks to find an easier way, the prosperity gospel way, the legalistic doctrine way, the mega grace way... but there is only one real way.

It is falling in love with Jesus, and having the image of Jesus burned on our hearts and minds so indelibly that we seek to imitate Him, love like Him, live like Him, and if necessary, be willing to die as He did. This is the love Jesus spoke of, and this is the love that must be a living force in our lives, if we want to reign with Jesus in eternity.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

Was Jesus a legalistic Pharisee? Remember that long list of do's and donts he commanded his disciples?

Read Matthew 5-7 sometime.

Michael, those are not to be regarded as a body of law, but rather a practice, a path, a way.

[Aquila]

Some of us don't look at the teachings of Christ as mere "lists". His words are spirit and they are life.

Christ's words are not a body of law. Christ's words are a path, a practice, a way of faith for those who are saved and called of God. A path followed by those who live by the Law of Love.

[Aquila]

I pretty much agree, Aquila. I have felt God leading me into a path that simply does not judge. Even when people do things I dislike or disagree with, that to me might be wrong, I don't know where they are in their walk or journey. I have no right to judge them. I can pray for them and hope they find their way, which may or may not be what I deem to be right or correct. Faith is a journey.

Amen. You have the revelation. God once spoke to me thusly...

Don't judge others merely because they "sin" against some list in a different manner than you do. But rather judge righteous judgment. All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. How does what is in question serve your spirit? Does it make you more loving? Does it make you more like Me? Does it demonstrate love to others? If not, then it is sin.

[Aquila]

Some of us add to the teachings of Christ, with good intentions of course, but some of us do add.

Eve added to God's command, right before she broke it.

Amen. I've been guilty of this too! lol

[Aquila]

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

Amen. I believe that God's focus when we were speaking were the man-made laws. However, God did mention something interesting:

Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture.

We often cherry pick a body of lists out of God's Word. For example, we pick a commandment here, a commandment there, and tack on the Ten Commandments at the end to make them sound official. The Law is a whole. It can't be divided. To obey any laws out of the law at the expense of ignoring others is (as God said) a form of hypocrisy. We either obey the entire law as a whole... or we must admit that we are not bound by it. And that's what I've come to realize. I'm not bound by it. However, I'm bound by a different eternal law... a Law of Love.

1.) Love God with all your being.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.

Jesus and Paul summed it up as follows:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In simply loving (both Godward and others-ward) we obey a higher law that fulfills the just requirements of the entire Law as delivered to Israel... because we are living by it's spiritual essence, not it's letter.

For example, keeping the Sabbath. We keep the Sabbath every day. How? We rest from the works of the law and the works of the flesh. We live in the Spirit daily. Now, every single day is holy unto the LORD. Merely keeping the Fourth Commandment and making one day out of seven isn't enough. In fact, it would be lowering the bar from what the Law of Love would demand.

Even this is a "list" of sorts:

1.) Love God.
2.) Love others.

However, it is the final list provided by God. And... it's universal in scope and application. It is timeless, or eternal, in that it isn't bound by culture, language, or time. It can be applied in any setting imaginable.

[Aquila]

Whenever a believer in Messiah Jesus speaks or writes on His behalf, especially in the first person, as though the Lord was speaking through the person, they are, at the very least, implying that they are a prophet. And at the very most, they are outright proclaiming themselves to be such, for this is the best, most literal definition of a prophet: a mouthpiece or spokesperson for God.

I had to offer a response to this statement. I see your logic, but I wouldn't call myself a prophet. I'm just as tragically flawed as anyone else. I just had to share what I felt God tell me. I was too scared to share it when it first happened. I was afraid people would think I was crazy. However, from that moment I did begin applying the logic and principles of what I felt that God was telling me. Michael pointed this out well in the beginning of this thread. This isn't a fiery or booming, "Thus saith the LORD..." kind of admonition that I've heard or read form those who do walk in the prophetic. I don't think I come close to being a prophet. And I definitely wouldn't call myself a prophet.

I just wanted to try to clarify. Because I think we have enough self proclaimed prophets running around. I'm just a brother sharing something that he believes God told him.

[kclee4jc]

Because they received not the love of the truth...

[votivesoul]

I had to offer a response to this statement. I see your logic, but I wouldn't call myself a prophet. I'm just as tragically flawed as anyone else. I just had to share what I felt God tell me. I was too scared to share it when it first happened. I was afraid people would think I was crazy. However, from that moment I did begin applying the logic and principles of what I felt that God was telling me. Michael pointed this out well in the beginning of this thread. This isn't a fiery or booming, "Thus saith the LORD..." kind of admonition that I've heard or read form those who do walk in the prophetic. I don't think I come close to being a prophet. And I definitely wouldn't call myself a prophet.

I just wanted to try to clarify. Because I think we have enough self proclaimed prophets running around. I'm just a brother sharing something that he believes God told him.

Thanks for the reply. We are all instructed to "seek the Lord, if haply [we] might feel after him..." (Acts 17:27).

I am all for this. We are but earthen vessels. The charismata are an interesting, nigh-inexhaustible topic. We all need the time to develop and so come to a better understanding of the gifts God has bestowed upon us.

I think it was good of you to share, despite the anxiety. In the end, whether you were right on, or I was, or Michael, or anyone else, the fact that you are trying, to me, is a worthy effort. How else can we covet the best gifts if we never step out and hope to be used in them?

And the fact is, we put way too much into the word prophet. Anyone who prophesies is a prophet. It's no great boast to be called a prophet. I am not calling you one, nor, apparently are you proclaiming to be one. But the word you shared, if from God, would, by definition, be prophetic, hence my opening comments.

[votivesoul]

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,

3. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

[votivesoul]

So how is this (bolded) working out for the church or the world??? I don't believe the church is using the gifts very effectively.

The gifts are often inactive or abused, sadly. Some aren't even acknowledged as present and existing in our day and age (e.g. Apostle and Prophet).

However, I have seen one place where the gifts are "working out": in the local assembly. A core, hearts knitted together in love group of believers in Christ can come to a place of mutual trust, respect, and understanding, such that the Lord can develop the ascension gifts in a safe, healthy environment, such that the local members are able to identify how Christ uses them.

If we could just take this, and steadily grow it outward to the next and the next local assembly (while ditching the traditions of man in the process) we might actually see some fruit.

It is a lofty hope, but worth it still for the hoping.

[Aquila]

Thanks for the reply. We are all instructed to "seek the Lord, if haply [we] might feel after him..." (Acts 17:27).

I am all for this. We are but earthen vessels. The charismata are an interesting, nigh-inexhaustible topic. We all need the time to develop and so come to a better understanding of the gifts God has bestowed upon us.

I think it was good of you to share, despite the anxiety. In the end, whether you were right on, or I was, or Michael, or anyone else, the fact that you are trying, to me, is a worthy effort. How else can we covet the best gifts if we never step out and hope to be used in them?

And the fact is, we put way too much into the word prophet. Anyone who prophesies is a prophet. It's no great boast to be called a prophet. I am not calling you one, nor, apparently are you proclaiming to be one. But the word you shared, if from God, would, by definition, be prophetic, hence my opening comments.

Great points. Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. :)

[jediwill83]

Im going to re read this over and over....look im no theological scholar...im not even a good christian most of the time...im laying here in my bunk at work and when I started reading this there was a witness I felt in my spirit...tears began to well up even now as im typing this...im not going to pick this apart and micro examine every tense and meaning...im going to accept this in the spirit it was given...if it makes me a hell bound herectic so be it...trust me when I say ive done worse...all I know is that it felt like it was straight to me.

[Aquila]

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

I was puzzled by that too when I first received this message. And you’re right, many lists are found in Scripture. However, when I tested the theory of this message, I discovered that people often pick and choose what lists they want to claim will please God. Sometimes they don’t even pick the entire list. For example, the Ten Commandments. Some will pick the Ten Commandments and then claim that the Fourth Commandment (The Sabbath) isn’t binding. Some will pick the Ten Commandments and say that the Fourth Commandment is binding. Some then add another list of how to honor the Sabbath from the Law of Moses. Some will add elements from the Law of Moses, but not the entire list of obligatory observances concerning the Sabbath. Then, finally, some don’t even refer to the Law of Moses at all, they merely set the Sabbath aside as a day of worship and “rest”. Notice… each list is “biblical”. Now each believer views violations of their specific list to be “sin”. And so they squabble, dis-fellowship, pronounce anathemas against one another etc. While each list is strictly based on a “biblical” interpretation, each list is but a “human” interpretation. Notice also, each person divorced the entire premise behind the elements of their list, God’s desire for Israel and His covenant with them. Essentially, they are digging through an ancient national constitution established by God for an ancient nation that doesn’t exist anymore and picking and choosing which laws will please God and get them to Heaven. By implication… in doing so, they are also choosing laws by which they will judge others. Each is guilty of the same error. A self-derived list by which they measure themselves and judge others. The end result… division and strife. We see this theological “war” between Covenantal Evangelicals, Seventh Day believers, and various sects of Messianic Christians. While the beat their chests and moralize with their lists… they are dividing the body over human opinions about divine truth… not divine truth itself. This is a grave sin in God’s eyes. It’s teaching for doctrines… the commandments of men; even though the lists are pulled from the Bible.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Amen. But what bothers me is the reasoning behind saying, “we are but flesh”. While this is true… this can become an excuse for clinging to one’s list (one’s “preferred” religion). It also excuses the division, strife, malice, etc. that can come from this “list-making”. Sadly, as history will testify, these “lists” have even led to war and bloodshed. Much of history is written in the blood of those who didn’t fit into someone’s religious “list”. That’s how evil these things can become. It’s easy to say that we are but flesh. However, is this really an adequate excuse? If we wanted to, couldn’t we surrender our “lists” for a greater understanding. An understanding that Jesus and the Apostle Paul so adequately explained? The understanding that God desires that we do one thing: Love? That we love Him… and show our love for Him by loving others as ourselves? That in all we do we should judge it as to if it is “loving” towards God and others? How does it serve me? Is it “expedient” and add to me growing into the likeness of Jesus Himself? Is that really too hard for those of us who are “but flesh”? It seems as though this would be far easier than maintaining a list, evaluating it constantly, measuring self and others by it, and then adding or taking away from it as another viable “interpretation” presents itself.

I’ve learned that a healthy and elevated spirituality is not judged on its complexity. It’s judge on its simplicity.

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.


I know. Sadly, nearly every “list-maker” has counted me an enemy… or at least suspect. It doesn’t matter if the list is conservative, liberal, evangelical, protestant, Catholic, Pentecostal, or Charismatic… everyone that I’ve discussed this with who values their “list” has either turned on me or holds me at arm’s reach. And my only proposition is that we strive to be filled with love; love for God shown by a love for others. That God is love… and through becoming a vessel through which the love of God flows… we truly become “holy”… like Him. Since God isn’t a Methodist… it stands to reason that to live in a manner that conforms us into the modes and fashions of the old Methodist holiness movement isn’t going to cut it. We’d be conformed into their image… not the image of Christ. Not the image of God. The God who is love. This message has me essentially standing alone and often times under siege by those who once called me “brother”. And interestingly enough… men who strongly disagree about their lists and would condemn one another to Hell fire have united to oppose me at times. Why? Could it be because that while they disagree on their “lists”… they agree on one thing… “we must have lists”? Do their “lists” give them a niche? Does it allow them to maintain some level of control or measure of honor among those whom they’ve convinced to embrace said “list”? I’m not sure. All I know is that for the most part… I stand alone when it comes to my immediate friends and family on this one.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,



We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

I’ve come to realize that it’s rather simple. If one’s words are not “loving”… they are not wholesome. If one’s actions are not “loving” they are not holy. If one’s words and actions cater to the needs of self and the desires of the flesh, they are not “loving” others, God, or even themselves properly. Paul said it best when he wrote:


Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” AND ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

A Christlike love fulfills the law in all things. Every commandment ever given is summed up in this one action… love.

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

I understand what you’re saying. And I agree. However I’ve come to see it differently. God doesn’t want us to become one with each other if such oneness compromises… HIM. Because He desires to be manifest in us. He desires to flow through us. He desires to be the vine… and us to be His branches. That which compromises HIM is the issue. Not what compromises “us” (normally meaning those of us who agree to the same "list"). Because my version of being compromised may not be the same as your version of being compromised. But if the issue is compromising Him and His body… now we have something substantive. God is love. And so if something compromises that love… it must be dealt with. It must be counseled, disciplined, or cut off. Sadly, I’ve seen folks cut off over things like a wedding band. I’ve see people cut off and abandoned spiritually over a laps in moral judgment without counsel or serious efforts to restore. I’ve seen people cut off because of an internal issue they struggle with. I’ve seen this used, not as a way to maintain the bonds of love, but rather to deny mercy and grace to those who will not perfectly abide by, or have struggles with, the “list”. We must separate ourselves from anyone who is living in a manner that uses another and doesn’t love. But we do this in the hopes that in being severed from a body filled with Christlike love… they will begin to understand what they are missing and what they need. They need Christ. They need the body through which His love flows.

Show me any individual with a rebellious propensity to sin… and I’ll show you how that person is failing to love God, others, and often even themselves.

[crakjak]

The gifts are often inactive or abused, sadly. Some aren't even acknowledged as present and existing in our day and age (e.g. Apostle and Prophet).

However, I have seen one place where the gifts are "working out": in the local assembly. A core, hearts knitted together in love group of believers in Christ can come to a place of mutual trust, respect, and understanding, such that the Lord can develop the ascension gifts in a safe, healthy environment, such that the local members are able to identify how Christ uses them.

If we could just take this, and steadily grow it outward to the next and the next local assembly (while ditching the traditions of man in the process) we might actually see some fruit.

It is a lofty hope, but worth it still for the hoping.

I completely agree, on all counts.

[votivesoul]

Great points. Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. :)

Who is weak and I am not weak?

I make mistakes. I should hope for the grace and mercy when I goof up that I ought to show to others when I think they have erred.

[votivesoul]

Thanks for the very thorough and clarifying response, Aquila. I am glad for the dialogue. :)

I read everything, but some things, more than others, stood out. These I wish to address:

...While each list is strictly based on a “biblical” interpretation, each list is but a “human” interpretation.

This is really my issue. If you had written that the qualm the Lord has with us was our interpretation of the lists found in Scripture, I don't think I would have disagreed at all. The presentation, from my pov, seemed to be suggesting that the Lord was against humans trying their very best to understand "what doth the Lord require of thee?".

There is no doubt that Christ was and is against teaching for the commandments of God the doctrines of men.

Amen. But what bothers me is the reasoning behind saying, “we are but flesh”...

I use this phrase in its Biblical context: Psalm 78:38-39,

38. But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39. For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

God knows we are but a wind that passes away. He even said of us "...the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23).

As a species, rescued from sin, or still dead therein, we really have no idea, most of the time, what we're doing, even if we boast differently.

Hence why the Lord is "very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:11).

So, not an excuse, but rather mere acknowledgement of just how helpless and child-like we all are. Utterly dependent of God for everything!

The understanding that God desires that we do one thing: Love? That we love Him… and show our love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

If we love Him we keep His commandments, right?

The corollary being that those who do not keep the Lord's commandments prove that they do not love Him as they say. Again we are drawn back to lists. What are the commandments of the Lord Jesus? How do we keep them properly? What if we don't agree? Can we be in sincere disagreement with one another without being in trouble with the Savior?

I’ve come to realize that it’s rather simple. If one’s words are not “loving”… they are not wholesome. If one’s actions are not “loving” they are not holy.

A Christlike love fulfills the law in all things. Every commandment ever given is summed up in this one action… love.

Paul asked the Galatians, "Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth"?

He called them foolish, said they were bewitched, said they had fallen from grace, and even desired that the Judaizers who had corrupted them would be castrated.

Are these words "loving" or "wholesome"?

Sometimes, the greatest words of love hurt us the most. We need censure, we need reproof and rebuke, we need verbal chastisement, we need to be upbraided.

I understand what you’re saying. And I agree. However I’ve come to see it differently. God doesn’t want us to become one with each other if such oneness compromises… HIM.

But if HIM, how much more us?

[Timmy]

Some of us don't look at the teachings of Christ as mere "lists". His words are spirit and they are life.Has God ever talked to you?

:chirp

[crakjak]

:chirp

Timmy,
You might enjoy Dr. Wayne Dyer's new book, "I See Clearly Now".
Most Christians likely would miss the point because he is not a born again Christian, and that he acknowledges God in a different way.

[pilgram]

Whenever a believer in Messiah Jesus speaks or writes on His behalf, especially in the first person, as though the Lord was speaking through the person, they are, at the very least, implying that they are a prophet. And at the very most, they are outright proclaiming themselves to be such, for this is the best, most literal definition of a prophet: a mouthpiece or spokesperson for God.

And since the original poster has written to us in first person what he claims are the words of the Lord Jesus, then we must, WE MUST, apply the Spirit-inspired principles that govern what we, as Christ's Body, are supposed to do when a prophet or "prophet" speaks, which is this:

1 Corinthians 14:29,


The prophet has permission to speak (or in this case write), but the contents of his or her message must be submitted to others for the purpose of judging what was said/written, to either authenticate or dismiss the message.

Aquila has done this much, and is to be commended for allowing others to judge what he claims is a "word from the Lord".

With all that being said, for whatever it is worth, I give my judgment...

After reading just the first few statements, I was convinced that what I was reading was not something the Lord would say. I quote:



For this point forward, much was made against the idea of "lists".

I have to say it: God is the one that creates lists, especially lists of "do's and don'ts".

Note the following lists authored by God:

1.) The Decalogue, or Ten Commandments

Moses, under inspiration, even calls them the "Ten Commandments" (See Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, and 10:4).

This list was created, compiled, and commanded into existence by the LORD.

2.) The six things the LORD hates, with the seventh making for an abomination:

Proverbs 6:16-19,



Here, another very obvious list is generated by our God. These items are enumerated and given in a specific order, the very definition of a list.

3.) The Genealogies (See 1 Chronicles 1-9).

God inspired nine chapters worth of lists of who's who in His Word!

4.) A sampling of the varied works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21,



5.) What becomes of people who are given over to uncleanness by God and ought to be considered reprobates:

Romans 1:28-32,



Another Holy Spirit-inspired, God-derived "list".

These five items are but a mere demonstration of just how much our Savior is into "lists". I do not see how Yeshua, then, through the Spirit, would condemn us for generating lists, especially lists that separate and divide, and make an obvious distinction between what is and is not righteous.

For example, works of the flesh are "don'ts". Do we all agree?

So, from that point forward, since the opening statements, in my opinion, seem contrary to the revealed appreciation God has for making lists, I think we can conclude that the Lord would not have said what is claimed He said.

And if the opening statements then are, at the least, suspect, and at the most, outright contradictions, how much more of the contents can be trusted?

I have no personal vendetta against Aquila, nor wish to publicly argue and fight over whether "thus saith the Lord".

As the Lord said in John 5:30,



As I read the original post, I judged. I for one believe my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will in this. I only want for God's will to be done in this matter.

Did the Lord speak to our brother?

All I can say is what he himself said:



Even the author admits to having to paraphrase and apply an interpretation to the "block of emotions" he received.

Perhaps the Lord was speaking, and did convey, through a "block of emotions" a message to Aquila. I will not say against it. But we have a right, even a duty to question the interpretational paraphrasing by which the "block of emotions" has been presented.

I submit then, that, even if the Lord was communicating, the message may have been mis-understood or not received properly.

More than that, I cannot say. But, since we are commanded by the Holy Scriptures to judge prophetic utterances, I have at least, done my part to give my judgment. In this case, it happens to be against what was shared.

Some have taken heart and received what Aquila wrote. I do not say you are wrong and I am right. But I do exhort all of us to sincerely compare everything that was written to the Word and consider what I've shared here thoroughly, before any possible, lasting damage is done.

Lord, correct your servant if I have come against you!

Spot on brother. Amen. We need to remember Jer 17:9

[KeptByTheWord]

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,



We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

OF COURSE there are things that the Lord requires of us. Yet, you know as well as I do, that a man receives a conviction on a certain thing from the Lord. Instead of accepting that it is just a conviction for himself, this man thinks that now everyone needs to obey this particular conviction he received from the Lord. Hence... a man-made rule. Even though the conviction was for him personally, he begins a ministry making it everyone's conviction. This is the kind of thing that you can find in almost every OP/Apostolic church. You can't go to two churches, and find two groups of people who believe exactly the same thing on every single account. This is the issue I am addressing, and perhaps what Aquila was referencing.

Of course, there are lines in the sand that must be drawn. The bottom line is that we must believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, and rose again for our sins. That He alone is our mediator, and it is to Him that we must answer to. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but through Him.

I am not talking about those lines in the sand.

The laws that I am addressing are the laws that vary from person to person, church to church, denomination from denomination, that come from a man's conviction that he extends to try to include everyone else around him. These are the things that have destroyed the church, because people cannot dissociate the difference between a man's conviction, and the foundational truth of the gospel.

[Aquila]

If we love Him we keep His commandments, right?

Amen. However, Jesus boiled it all down to two primary commandments.

1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I’d like to draw our attention these texts:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:9 says it very eloquently. It mentions several of the Ten Commandments and then states, “and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

True, Christ-like love will automatically cause no harm to another. It will not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet. Therefore, if we simply love one another as ourselves, we will automatically fulfill the whole of law.

The corollary being that those who do not keep the Lord's commandments prove that they do not love Him as they say. Again we are drawn back to lists. What are the commandments of the Lord Jesus? How do we keep them properly? What if we don't agree? Can we be in sincere disagreement with one another without being in trouble with the Savior?

I believe the commandments of Christ are simply:


1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul asked the Galatians, "Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth"?

He called them foolish, said they were bewitched, said they had fallen from grace, and even desired that the Judaizers who had corrupted them would be castrated.

Are these words "loving" or "wholesome"?

Sometimes, the greatest words of love hurt us the most. We need censure, we need reproof and rebuke, we need verbal chastisement, we need to be upbraided.

Yes, love is often tough. I’m not talking about a frilly emotional love. I’m talking about Christ-like love.

[Carl]

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

[Aquila]

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

When they abandon lists and fall into grave error, it shows the danger of legalism. They never spiritually matured.

[Michael The Disciple]

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion.

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

[votivesoul]

Regarding the Two Greatest Commandments...

Loving God and loving each other have a massive subset of commandments. Even the Second Commandment is a subset of the First (Mark 12:31). But also, the First is a subset of the Second (1 John 4:20).

But as Paul wrote, these subset are nonetheless eloquently summed up by the royal law.

But this is my point and has been from the beginning:

From what I've read on this board, in a very specific area, there are two mutually exclusive views on the nature of the resurrection. One espouses an immediate entrance into heaven, the other states that the soul "sleeps", for lack of a better word, with the body, until the Second Coming.

The people who have discussed this topic are adamant that their particular view is the correct doctrine of Christ. But since each view is mutually exclusive, meaning that the views can in no way be reconciled, it forces and enforces an ideological division between the two camps.

If the opening statements attributed to the Lord are truly from Him, then it would be easy to come to the following (false) conclusion:

The people on this board, because they are divided over this doctrine, must not love God or each other, or else they wouldn't be so divided. Only one position on the resurrection can be true, so the other incorrect position is nothing more than a tradition of men, making those who have embraced it the real cause of the division, because they are teaching a false view. They take Scripture out of context, wrest and twist the Word against their own souls, and, oh, by the way, here is my list of Scriptures which shows how wrong they are while proving how right I/we am/are.

Should we come to such a conclusion? Or can two washed, justified, sanctified, Spirit-filled believers, who don't believe exactly the same way, but who have obeyed and practice the same Gospel of the same Lord, still have differing views without being divided from one another regarding the love they have for God and each other? Even though they have opposing, mutually exclusive beliefs and use and understand the same verses of Scripture differently from each other?

I affirm yes. Two CAN walk together and be agreed even if not everything they believe and think is identical at all times. It's James and Paul.

James sent some Jewish believers to where Simon Peter, Paul, and Barnabas were at, and it caused an issue for Simon and Barnabas, such that Paul reproved Peter to his face in front of everyone.

And yet, when Paul made it back to Jerusalem, he and James were on good terms, and Paul even submitted to an ordinance given to him by James, one that, inadvertently, led to Paul's arrest, imprisonment, and eventual martyrdom in Rome.

James bragged to Paul about how many thousands of Christian Jews there were in Jerusalem who were zealous for the law. Paul wrote to the Roman Jews of the Church and reprimanded them for making their boast in the law. A true dichotomy, and yet no love lost for God or each other. They still had the unity of the Spirit.

Therefore the issue isn't our lists or doctrinal disagreements. It's a matter of the heart, a heart that either chooses or refuses to love God and each other, no matter the differences in our lists or doctrinal beliefs.

A slight distinction, perhaps, but one that makes a big difference.

[Aquila]

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

[crakjak]

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

According to Matt. 25, we will be judged primarily on how we treated the less fortunate!! That seems to be the only judgment that effects one's punishment.

[Aquila]

According to Matt. 25, we will be judged primarily on how we treated the less fortunate!! That seems to be the only judgment that effects one's punishment.

Wouldn't that tie into loving others as one's self?

[crakjak]

Wouldn't that tie into loving others as one's self?

Very much so!!

[Timmy]

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

Glad you're back!

Has God ever spoken to you, Michael?

[KeptByTheWord]

I believe that the lists originated with "personal convictions" of an individual, which then became a mandate beyond that individual, spreading, and reaching people within that person's ministry to end up as a church, group or denomination standard and mandate.

Honestly, each one of us probably have "lists" that we know we are called to obey, that may differ from you to me. My list of "do not" or "do's" may include something that is not on yours.

Should that cause us to hate one another, because we don't have the same "lists" or really convictions? NO.

The one thing that should bind us all together is the death, burial, and resurrection life of Jesus Christ, loving one another, and helping those who are less fortunate than us, and sharing the gospel wherever we go. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and we cannot compromise that in any way.

Yet, our lists (convictions) vary from person to person, and it is these convictions that cause division, when they shouldn't.

If we are judging others according the fruit of the spirit operating in their life, and find their fruit to be true, if they should happen to differ in a conviction or law in their life from ours, we should still love them and count them as brethren.

I find this verse in 1 John to speak volumes concerning this subject:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I believe the anointing, or the spirit of Christ within us is able to teach us, rebuke us, reprimand us against doing things, or doing things contrary, or according to what is pleasing to the Lord. The Spirit may direct and teach me to be obedient to a conviction that my brother or sister may not share. It may be that I have a conviction that I should not eat pork, or that I should not wear a certain style of clothing, or that I don't have a TV, and on those lists or convictions can go. But, I shouldn't judge my brother/sister because they do or don't have those same convictions as myself.

I do believe that Jesus' last words to his disciples hold true today, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I can love my brother/sister if they have a TV, and I don't have one. I can love my brother/sister if they don't wear jewelry, and I do... etc. You get the picture. Our personal outward or inward convictions are something that we live by, but do not judge others by.

Bottom line is we cannot compromise the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is where the division must come, and the line must be drawn in the sand.

But beyond that... personal convictions/lists should not divide the brethren who are united in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Aquila]

I believe that the lists originated with "personal convictions" of an individual, which then became a mandate beyond that individual, spreading, and reaching people within that person's ministry to end up as a church, group or denomination standard and mandate.

Honestly, each one of us probably have "lists" that we know we are called to obey, that may differ from you to me. My list of "do not" or "do's" may include something that is not on yours.

Should that cause us to hate one another, because we don't have the same "lists" or really convictions? NO.

The one thing that should bind us all together is the death, burial, and resurrection life of Jesus Christ, loving one another, and helping those who are less fortunate than us, and sharing the gospel wherever we go. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and we cannot compromise that in any way.

Yet, our lists (convictions) vary from person to person, and it is these convictions that cause division, when they shouldn't.

If we are judging others according the fruit of the spirit operating in their life, and find their fruit to be true, if they should happen to differ in a conviction or law in their life from ours, we should still love them and count them as brethren.

I find this verse in 1 John to speak volumes concerning this subject:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I believe the anointing, or the spirit of Christ within us is able to teach us, rebuke us, reprimand us against doing things, or doing things contrary, or according to what is pleasing to the Lord. The Spirit may direct and teach me to be obedient to a conviction that my brother or sister may not share. It may be that I have a conviction that I should not eat pork, or that I should not wear a certain style of clothing, or that I don't have a TV, and on those lists or convictions can go. But, I shouldn't judge my brother/sister because they do or don't have those same convictions as myself.

I do believe that Jesus' last words to his disciples hold true today, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I can love my brother/sister if they have a TV, and I don't have one. I can love my brother/sister if they don't wear jewelry, and I do... etc. You get the picture. Our personal outward or inward convictions are something that we live by, but do not judge others by.

Bottom line is we cannot compromise the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is where the division must come, and the line must be drawn in the sand.

But beyond that... personal convictions/lists should not divide the brethren who are united in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

Glad you're back!

Has God ever spoken to you, Michael?

Thanks Tim.

God began speaking to me in 1974. He has spoke to me as recently as a few weeks ago. And this is considered normal for any New Covenant believer.

8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 8:11 They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know me, from their least to their greatest.

It is a covenant of "knowing the Lord".

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe that the lists originated with "personal convictions" of an individual, which then became a mandate beyond that individual, spreading, and reaching people within that person's ministry to end up as a church, group or denomination standard and mandate.

Honestly, each one of us probably have "lists" that we know we are called to obey, that may differ from you to me. My list of "do not" or "do's" may include something that is not on yours.

Should that cause us to hate one another, because we don't have the same "lists" or really convictions? NO.

The one thing that should bind us all together is the death, burial, and resurrection life of Jesus Christ, loving one another, and helping those who are less fortunate than us, and sharing the gospel wherever we go. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and we cannot compromise that in any way.

Yet, our lists (convictions) vary from person to person, and it is these convictions that cause division, when they shouldn't.

If we are judging others according the fruit of the spirit operating in their life, and find their fruit to be true, if they should happen to differ in a conviction or law in their life from ours, we should still love them and count them as brethren.

I find this verse in 1 John to speak volumes concerning this subject:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I believe the anointing, or the spirit of Christ within us is able to teach us, rebuke us, reprimand us against doing things, or doing things contrary, or according to what is pleasing to the Lord. The Spirit may direct and teach me to be obedient to a conviction that my brother or sister may not share. It may be that I have a conviction that I should not eat pork, or that I should not wear a certain style of clothing, or that I don't have a TV, and on those lists or convictions can go. But, I shouldn't judge my brother/sister because they do or don't have those same convictions as myself.

I do believe that Jesus' last words to his disciples hold true today, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I can love my brother/sister if they have a TV, and I don't have one. I can love my brother/sister if they don't wear jewelry, and I do... etc. You get the picture. Our personal outward or inward convictions are something that we live by, but do not judge others by.

Bottom line is we cannot compromise the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is where the division must come, and the line must be drawn in the sand.

But beyond that... personal convictions/lists should not divide the brethren who are united in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Its really hard to have discussion when people instantly think "standards of men" when it comes to the Lords commands.

Since I never felt comfortable among such Churches and dropped out many years ago I don't understand all the talk about "lists".

I am used to reading the Bible and everywhere I look I see the Lord or his apostles teaching believers how to live both do's and donts'.

I take it personally as if its the Lord himself speaking to me. This does not mean he does not speak to me apart from the written word but that I don't look at the recorded scriptures as "legalistic". Far from it

Jesus said his words ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE. That Heaven and Earth will pass away but his words will not.

Anyway its not upon us to pick and choose what we want to obey out of the teachings of the New Covenant.

Our lives are no longer our own. There is nothing as important to a Christian as that he find out what Yeshua expects from him. Thankfully in his rich love he has given us understanding through his apostles chosen for that very purpose.

If we choose to ignore his commandments it does not change their authority over our lives. Jesus said the words he spoke will be our judge on the last day.

That was so important to him he made it the first priority after baptism.

Learn his commandments. See how this is connected to the great commission?

28:18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 28:19 Go,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Teach new converts to obey all his commands. Yes they center upon love. They can be summed up as such. Yet his commands teach us HOW TO LOVE.

They are not meant to strangle the life out of the disciple. They are designed that if you DO THEM they shape you to be like Jesus. You will actually do as he would do.

Last but not least this ONLY works in a life that has been filled with the Holy Spirit. It ONLY works in those who abide in Jesus. Peace and love.

[Timmy]

Thanks Tim.

God began speaking to me in 1974. He has spoke to me as recently as a few weeks ago. And this is considered normal for any New Covenant believer.

8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 8:11 They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know me, from their least to their greatest.

It is a covenant of "knowing the Lord".

Cool.

How do you know that God didn't tell Aquila what he posted?

[Michael The Disciple]

Cool.

How do you know that God didn't tell Aquila what he posted?

There are elements of truth in what he said. Yet Jesus spent much of his time giving commandments/instructions to his disciples. He does not minimize or downplay this in anyway.

Up to the end of the Bible he is still showing us only those who keep his commands are going into the Heavenly city.

Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

[Aquila]

Its really hard to have discussion when people instantly think "standards of men" when it comes to the Lords commands.

Since I never felt comfortable among such Churches and dropped out many years ago I don't understand all the talk about "lists".

I am used to reading the Bible and everywhere I look I see the Lord or his apostles teaching believers how to live both do's and donts'.

I take it personally as if its the Lord himself speaking to me. This does not mean he does not speak to me apart from the written word but that I don't look at the recorded scriptures as "legalistic". Far from it

Jesus said his words ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE. That Heaven and Earth will pass away but his words will not.

Anyway its not upon us to pick and choose what we want to obey out of the teachings of the New Covenant.

Our lives are no longer our own. There is nothing as important to a Christian as that he find out what Yeshua expects from him. Thankfully in his rich love he has given us understanding through his apostles chosen for that very purpose.

If we choose to ignore his commandments it does not change their authority over our lives. Jesus said the words he spoke will be our judge on the last day.

That was so important to him he made it the first priority after baptism.

Learn his commandments. See how this is connected to the great commission?

28:18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 28:19 Go,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Teach new converts to obey all his commands. Yes they center upon love. They can be summed up as such. Yet his commands teach us HOW TO LOVE.

They are not meant to strangle the life out of the disciple. They are designed that if you DO THEM they shape you to be like Jesus. You will actually do as he would do.

Last but not least this ONLY works in a life that has been filled with the Holy Spirit. It ONLY works in those who abide in Jesus. Peace and love.

I see what you're saying. I think you're saying that we should approach Christ's commandments, obey them, and ensure that we're doing them out of love. I'm coming from the opposite direction. I'm saying, focus on ensuring that you love... and you'll NATURALLY fulfill Christ's commandments.

[Aquila]

Cool.

How do you know that God didn't tell Aquila what he posted?

I'm not even absolutely positive that it was God. It was just something burning deep inside of me that I had to translate into words... and when I did... it only felt appropriate in the format of an address to me from God.

[Aquila]

There are elements of truth in what he said. Yet Jesus spent much of his time giving commandments/instructions to his disciples. He does not minimize or downplay this in anyway.

Up to the end of the Bible he is still showing us only those who keep his commands are going into the Heavenly city.

Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

It is true that Christ doesn't minimize His commandments in any manner. However, Christ emphasized that the entire law hinges on two things...

1.) Loving God with one's entire being.
2.) Demonstrating that love for God by loving others as one's self.

Jesus hung the entire law on these two commandments. And remember, Christ's "teaching" was essentially an interpretation of the law. Jesus often says, "It has been said... but I say unto you...", and with such statements Jesus spiritualized or elevated the meaning and purpose of the law. Therefore, all of Christ's teachings and commandments must be included in the summarization He gave concerning one's love for God demonstrated by their love for others.

[KeptByTheWord]

Its really hard to have discussion when people instantly think "standards of men" when it comes to the Lords commands.

I hope you're not addressing this statement to me, because I have sincerely tried to explain in my post above, that it is exactly not that. The Lord gave commandments that deal with our hearts. Men add commandments that deal with outward, physical things, which is exactly what the Pharisees were doing, and Christ condemned them.

Since I never felt comfortable among such Churches and dropped out many years ago I don't understand all the talk about "lists".

I am used to reading the Bible and everywhere I look I see the Lord or his apostles teaching believers how to live both do's and donts'.

I take it personally as if its the Lord himself speaking to me. This does not mean he does not speak to me apart from the written word but that I don't look at the recorded scriptures as "legalistic". Far from it

Jesus said his words ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE. That Heaven and Earth will pass away but his words will not.

Anyway its not upon us to pick and choose what we want to obey out of the teachings of the New Covenant.

Our lives are no longer our own. There is nothing as important to a Christian as that he find out what Yeshua expects from him. Thankfully in his rich love he has given us understanding through his apostles chosen for that very purpose.

If we choose to ignore his commandments it does not change their authority over our lives. Jesus said the words he spoke will be our judge on the last day.

That was so important to him he made it the first priority after baptism.

Learn his commandments. See how this is connected to the great commission?

28:18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 28:19 Go,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Teach new converts to obey all his commands. Yes they center upon love. They can be summed up as such. Yet his commands teach us HOW TO LOVE.

They are not meant to strangle the life out of the disciple. They are designed that if you DO THEM they shape you to be like Jesus. You will actually do as he would do.

Last but not least this ONLY works in a life that has been filled with the Holy Spirit. It ONLY works in those who abide in Jesus. Peace and love.

This verse sums up very well how love fulfills the commandments of Jesus:

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us.

These are the commandments:
1. Believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ
2. Love one another.

II John 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


If we believe on the name of Jesus, AND love one another, that is love, that is the commandment, which the apostles received from the beginning, and love does not need a list.

Love acts upon the prompting of the spirit of Christ indwelling a man, and thereby obeys the commandments of Christ. Quite simple.

[Timmy]

There are elements of truth in what he said. Yet Jesus spent much of his time giving commandments/instructions to his disciples. He does not minimize or downplay this in anyway.

Up to the end of the Bible he is still showing us only those who keep his commands are going into the Heavenly city.

Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

So, God didn't say it because it isn't all true, is that correct?

OK, now, how do you know it isn't all true? Because it doesn't all agree with the Bible, is that it? Or more precisely, it is different from your interpretation of the Bible.

Apparently, Aquila has a different interpretation -- I'm getting the impression, at least, that he doesn't see any disagreement with what he posted and the Bible.

But he's wrong.

I guess.

[Aquila]

I think God's desire is that we seek to be more like Jesus... not what we think a Christian should be.

[Timmy]

I think God's desire is that we seek to be more like Jesus... not what we think a Christian should be.

Well, Michael has a point, though. Jesus was pretty demanding. Talked a lot about commands, and obeying, and stuff. And consequences. You know, like producing fruit, or else you'll be cut off and thrown into the fire. That kind of thing.

[Aquila]

Well, Michael has a point, though. Jesus was pretty demanding. Talked a lot about commands, and obeying, and stuff. And consequences. You know, like producing fruit, or else you'll be cut off and thrown into the fire. That kind of thing.

I believe that if we look closely at the teachings of Jesus, they illustrate how we are to love others and interpret the law in a manner based on a love for others. This is why Jesus said that the entire law and the prophets hinges on these two commands:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul appears to hold the same position:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

While many want to try and point to Christ's commandments, the point isn't to take them and make a legalistic list. But rather, the point is to understand how they illustrate divine love for one's God, self, and others. Because in loving, the entire point of God's intention and desire for man is fulfilled.

[Aquila]

It happened again.

[FlamingZword]

I'm not even absolutely positive that it was God. It was just something burning deep inside of me that I had to translate into words... and when I did... it only felt appropriate in the format of an address to me from God.

Maybe it was a piece of Pizza gone bad. :D

[Aquila]

Maybe it was a piece of Pizza gone bad. :D

:lol

[Aquila]

Another conversation with God:

When I finally surrendered, fell on my knees and screamed,

"I'm done! I don't care what my purpose is! I've searched and hoped and dreamed so long! I thought you were in all of it, but nothing ever happened. I QUIT!!!"

... that's when God spoke to me and said, "NOW."

A single word. I sat there quietly wondering what that one single word meant. I said, "Lord, I don't get it."

He said, "Does the past exist? Where is it? Pick something up from the past and show it to me."

I answered, "I can't. The past is the past. It's over. So, I assume, it doesn't exist."

The Lord said, "Very good. Then why do you cling to it? Good or bad, you let the past define you... and it doesn't even exist! Please tell me, does the future exist?"

I said, "It hasn't happened yet, so, I'd have to answer; no, the future doesn't exist."

God said, "Very good. Why then do you live as though it does? You assume that you can control the outcome of your life through your choices and therefore shape the future to your liking. But the truth is... you can't. You want to know your purpose as though the future is some story that you're trying to write yourself into. And you assume that WHEN this happens, WHEN this is realized, WHEN you have this or that, WHEN you are here or there... you assume that WHEN these things occur that you will be... happy. So you live your life reaching and grasping for a hand full of... nothing... because the future doesn't exist. And... it never will. Not as you desire it to be. Accept this fact and release all your anxiety about it."

I then said, "So what is the reason for one's purpose or calling???"

God said, "It is realized (made real) in the now. Because the 'now' is all you have. Look around you. What is your purpose, reason, function, place, role, right NOW? Are you rich? Be rich. Experience wealth and serve me with it. Are you poor? Experience poverty and serve me with it. Are you healthy? Experience health and serve me with it. Are you sick? Experience sickness, and serve me with it. All you have is NOW. Be therefore content with NOW. Realize that NOW is a treasure so much greater than a past that is gone... and a future that doesn't exist. Your NOW is solid gold my child. You are serving me, NOW. I AM speaking to you NOW. You can comfort the hurting, feed the hungry, love the broken, heal the sick, visit the widow, clothe the naked... right NOW. You're letting NOW escape your grasp and missing opportunities that I have set before you because you're so focused on things that don't exist. You're focused on your past as though it defines you... and you're focused on your future as though it will set you free from the definition you think your past has given you. I DEFINE YOU! And I do so in the NOW. I am the I AM. I AM not the I WAS. I am the I AM. I AM not the I WILL BE. I AM... I AM... NOW. Grasp the importance of what I am trying to reveal to you. No matter what...you're only in the NOW. In the past, the past was your NOW. When the future does occur, it too will be your NOW. If you fail to grasp the fullness of NOW... you'll never attain the blessings to come when they become... NOW. So, let go and BE. Be what NOW has called you to be. And serve ME in the NOW. That is my purpose for you, my child."