Jesus would stone homosexuals News Story

[Disciple4life]

Pastor says "Jesus would stone homos". This link is to the blaze.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/19/pastor-posts-church-sign-about-stoning-gays-that-youll-have-to-see-to-believe/

[KeptByTheWord]

We do not know that. Surely there were "homos" in Jesus day, and there is no record of Him doing that. Instead, no doubt Jesus would have brought deliverance to the lives of those in that bondage, instead of stoning them.

[MissBrattified]

Not a chance. He didn't stone the adulterous woman; why would He stone a homosexual?

[Disciple4life]

Not a chance. He didn't stone the adulterous woman; why would He stone a homosexual?

That is what I thought.

[Aquila]

Some bible scholars would say that Jesus actually had much mercy upon a man and his who had a male "servant" (Grk. "pais"), healing the servant upon the man's request. They note that in extra-biblical literature the term "pais" often denotes a male servant who was commonly both a servant and lover for Roman centurions and aristocrats:

Matthew 8:5-10
5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Now, is this true? They say this is why the Roman centurion felt unworthy for Jesus (a Jew) to come under his roof.

Luke's depiction is as follows:

Luke 7:1-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
1 After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 Now a centurion had a servant[a] who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued (entimos) by him. 3 When the centurion[b] heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they pleaded with him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy to have you do this for him, 5 for he loves our nation, and he is the one who built us our synagogue.” 6 And Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends, saying to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. 8 For I too am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 9 When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” 10 And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the servant well.

Many say that since the centurion assisted with the building of a synagogue and loved the Jewish people, he couldn't have been in an illicit relationship with his servant (pais). But rather he refused to have Jesus come under his roof because he was a Gentile. However, others argue that just as in our day, a person can be of a religious orientation, friendly to a given church, and still be living in a sinful lifestyle that is customary in the world. The servant (pais) is regarded as being "entimos", or of "intimate" value, or lovingly "dear" to him.

Eh, I'll let the Bible scholars battle it out. However, if one even considers it at least a remote possibility... we see great mercy shown by Jesus towards even the most sinful pagans. And even the traditional understanding demonstrates Christ's mercy and compassion towards those considered "unclean" by the law's standard.

[Aquila]

In the Gospels we repeatedly see mercy shown towards those who were sinners and considered “unclean” and of low moral character. However, Christ’s most venomous rebukes and most brazen outbursts were directed towards the ultra-legalistic religious elite (Pharisees and Sadducees). I honestly think that if Jesus were alive today, he’d already have been removed from various churches for flipping tables and openly rebuking pastors and district elders. We’d find him attending some laid back churches that allowed him to speak, and he’d be spotted hanging out openly talking to people in the local strip of bars and establishments of a mature nature.

I’m reminded of they lyrics from Todd Agnew’s song, My Jesus:

Which Jesus do you follow?
Which Jesus do you serve?
If Ephesians says to imitate Christ
Then why do you look so much like the world

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the arrogant
So which one do you want to be?

Blessed are the poor in spirit
Or do we pray to be blessed with the wealth of this land
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness
Or do we ache for another taste of this world of shifting sand

Cause my Jesus bled and died for my sins
He spent His time with thieves and sluts and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the rich
So which one do you want to be?

Who is this that you follow
This picture of the American dream
If Jesus were here would you walk right by on the other side
Or fall down and worship at His holy feet

Holy

Pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we'd recognize Him

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?

Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on his feet might stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despises the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale ST. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear if I cry out loud

I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
Ooooohhhhh

Not a poster child for American prosperity, but like my Jesus
You see I'm tired of living for success and popularity
I want to be like my Jesus but I'm not sure what that means to be like
You Jesus
Cause You said to live like You, love like You but then You died for me
Can I be like You Jesus?
I want to be like You Jesus.
I want to be like my Jesus.

[Disciple4life]

Aquila,

I know you heard this from somewhere and it is not you who is doing this.

I personally think that too many people are trying to insert gay people into the bible. Sure they exist but don't try to insert them into a story that doesn't mention it.

A loved servant just can be a servant that the master loves. There does not need to be sex drug into the situation. Maybe everybody should stop thinking about sex ALL the time. :girlytantrum

[n david]

Aquila,

I know you heard this from somewhere and it is not you who is doing this.

I personally think that too many people are trying to insert gay people into the bible. Sure they exist but don't try to insert them into a story that doesn't mention it.

A loved servant just can be a servant that the master loves. There does not need to be sex drug into the situation. Maybe everybody should stop thinking about sex ALL the time. :girlytantrum
Right.

Remember Peter and Cornelius in Acts...it was against Jewish law for a Jew to be in a Gentiles house. That's it. Period.

Now, would Jesus have stoned a homosexual? No. Could he have healed or forgiven one? Absolutely.

I think it's a bit amusing we make Jesus into our ideas of who and how He should be. Not faulting anyone, I likely do the same.

I highly doubt Jesus would be hanging out at a bar or strip club, as some may think or hope. Yes, he would sit with sinners, but he wouldn't be partaking in their sin or with them in a sinful place.

[Aquila]

Aquila,

I know you heard this from somewhere and it is not you who is doing this.

I personally think that too many people are trying to insert gay people into the bible. Sure they exist but don't try to insert them into a story that doesn't mention it.

A loved servant just can be a servant that the master loves. There does not need to be sex drug into the situation. Maybe everybody should stop thinking about sex ALL the time. :girlytantrum

Great point. However, I am fully aware of how centurions are recorded to have lived, and it wouldn't be too drastic of a leap in logic. But you're right. He may have simply been a beloved servant.

[jfrog]

We know of one adulteress woman jesus didn't stone. How do we know he never stoned any adulteress women?

[ctclady11]

We know of one adulteress woman jesus didn't stone. How do we know he never stoned any adulteress women?

Well, John 3:17 comes to mind

[Sean]

Leviticus 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.



Guess what...Jesus even "broke the Law of Moses" (Torah) to get her out of being killed. (He "rescued" her from the judgement of the Law). He just said for her to stop committing adultery.

Boy, I just opened a can of worms.

[Rose]

No worms, just GRACE,

[Sister Alvear]

I DON'T THINK STONING WAS PART OF HIS CHARACTER...He came to seek and save....He never condemned anyone expect those that stood on the streets condemning. While I do not agree with that life style and neither does the Bible however it is our job to reach out to others and offer hope and life eternal.

[Praxeas]

Some bible scholars would say that Jesus actually had much mercy upon a man and his who had a male "servant" (Grk. "pais"), healing the servant upon the man's request. They note that in extra-biblical literature the term "pais" often denotes a male servant who was commonly both a servant and lover for Roman centurions and aristocrats:
Matthew 8:5-10
5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.Now, is this true? They say this is why the Roman centurion felt unworthy for Jesus (a Jew) to come under his roof.

Luke's depiction is as follows:
Luke 7:1-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
1 After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 Now a centurion had a servant[a] who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued (entimos) by him. 3 When the centurion[b] heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they pleaded with him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy to have you do this for him, 5 for he loves our nation, and he is the one who built us our synagogue.” 6 And Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends, saying to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. 8 For I too am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 9 When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” 10 And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the servant well.Many say that since the centurion assisted with the building of a synagogue and loved the Jewish people, he couldn't have been in an illicit relationship with his servant (pais). But rather he refused to have Jesus come under his roof because he was a Gentile. However, others argue that just as in our day, a person can be of a religious orientation, friendly to a given church, and still be living in a sinful lifestyle that is customary in the world. The servant (pais) is regarded as being "entimos", or of "intimate" value, or lovingly "dear" to him.

Eh, I'll let the Bible scholars battle it out. However, if one even considers it at least a remote possibility... we see great mercy shown by Jesus towards even the most sinful pagans. And even the traditional understanding demonstrates Christ's mercy and compassion towards those considered "unclean" by the law's standard.
I didn't see any "Bible Scholarship" in your post. Have a reference?

[Praxeas]

NET bible
13 tn The Greek term here is παῖς (pais), often used of a slave who was regarded with some degree of affection, possibly a personal servant (Luk_7:7 uses the more common term δοῦλος, doulos). See L&N 87.77.

Note it says affection, not sexual relation

Zodhaites Word Study
παίς
país; gen. paidós, masc.-fem. noun. A child in relation to descent; a boy or girl in relation to age; a manservant, attendant, maid in relation to cultural condition. Spoken of all ages from infancy up to full-grown youth (Mat_2:16; Act_20:12 [cf. Act_20:9]).

(I) Particularly and generally (Mat_2:16; Mat_21:15); sing. ho país (Mat_17:18; Luk_2:43; Luk_9:42; Joh_4:51; Act_20:12 [cf. Act_20:9 neanías {G3494}, a young man]); sing. fem hē país (Luk_8:51, Luk_8:54 [cf. Luk_8:42 thugátēr {G2364}, daughter]); Sept.: Gen_24:28, Gen_24:57; Gen_34:12; Rth_2:6).

(II) Boy, servant.
(A) Particularly and generally, equivalent to doúlos (G1401), a servant, slave (Mat_8:6, Mat_8:8, Mat_8:13 [cf. Mat_8:9, doúlos]; Luk_7:7 [cf. Luk_7:3]; Luk_12:45; Luk_15:26; Sept.: Gen_9:26-27; Gen_24:2; Gen_26:15).

(B) An attendant, minister, as of a king (Mat_14:2; Sept.: Gen_41:38; Jer_36:24).
(C) The servant
of God, spoken of a minister or ambassador of God, called and beloved of God, and sent by Him to perform any service, e.g., of David (Luk_1:69; Act_4:25); of Israel (Luk_1:54 [cf. Sept.: Isa_41:8-9; Isa_44:1-2; Isa_45:4]); of Jesus the Messiah (Mat_12:18 in allusion to Isa_42:1; Act_3:13, Act_3:26; Act_4:27, Act_4:30; Sept.: Isa_49:6; Isa_50:10; Isa_52:13).

[Ferd]

im gonna go with "idiots say stupid stuff"

and "somepastorsareidiots"


hows that?


The fact is, Jesus was quite familiar with the reality of eternity and the dispostion of a sinner who dies in their sin. stoning precludes conversion... I dont think he was interested in sending people directly to hell considering the was sent with the mission of seeking and saving those that should be lost.

[navygoat1998]

im gonna go with "idiots say stupid stuff"

and "somepastorsareidiots"


hows that?


The fact is, Jesus was quite familiar with the reality of eternity and the dispostion of a sinner who dies in their sin. stoning precludes conversion... I dont think he was interested in sending people directly to hell considering the was sent with the mission of seeking and saving those that should be lost.

:heeheehee

[n david]

NET bible
13 tn The Greek term here is παῖς (pais), often used of a slave who was regarded with some degree of affection, possibly a personal servant (Luk_7:7 uses the more common term δοῦλος, doulos). See L&N 87.77.

Note it says affection, not sexual relation

Zodhaites Word Study
παίς
país; gen. paidós, masc.-fem. noun. A child in relation to descent; a boy or girl in relation to age; a manservant, attendant, maid in relation to cultural condition. Spoken of all ages from infancy up to full-grown youth (Mat_2:16; Act_20:12 [cf. Act_20:9]).

(I) Particularly and generally (Mat_2:16; Mat_21:15); sing. ho país (Mat_17:18; Luk_2:43; Luk_9:42; Joh_4:51; Act_20:12 [cf. Act_20:9 neanías {G3494}, a young man]); sing. fem hē país (Luk_8:51, Luk_8:54 [cf. Luk_8:42 thugátēr {G2364}, daughter]); Sept.: Gen_24:28, Gen_24:57; Gen_34:12; Rth_2:6).

(II) Boy, servant.
(A) Particularly and generally, equivalent to doúlos (G1401), a servant, slave (Mat_8:6, Mat_8:8, Mat_8:13 [cf. Mat_8:9, doúlos]; Luk_7:7 [cf. Luk_7:3]; Luk_12:45; Luk_15:26; Sept.: Gen_9:26-27; Gen_24:2; Gen_26:15).

(B) An attendant, minister, as of a king (Mat_14:2; Sept.: Gen_41:38; Jer_36:24).
(C) The servant
of God, spoken of a minister or ambassador of God, called and beloved of God, and sent by Him to perform any service, e.g., of David (Luk_1:69; Act_4:25); of Israel (Luk_1:54 [cf. Sept.: Isa_41:8-9; Isa_44:1-2; Isa_45:4]); of Jesus the Messiah (Mat_12:18 in allusion to Isa_42:1; Act_3:13, Act_3:26; Act_4:27, Act_4:30; Sept.: Isa_49:6; Isa_50:10; Isa_52:13).

Some try to project their thoughts into scripture, especially now days, and especially regarding homosexuality. They would love to try and find a scripture where Jesus had a beloved homosexual friend or healed one.

I read some blog a while back claiming David and Jonathan were lovers. And of course, David being a man after God's own heart and all....

[FlamingZword]

It is a sad time and yet a great time
The homosexuals are winning, which is bad
But at the same time their winning, means that we are getting closer to the end.

Just when things get the darkest in this world, then Jesus will suddenly appear with his brightest shining light.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Some try to project their thoughts into scripture, especially now days, and especially regarding homosexuality. They would love to try and find a scripture where Jesus had a beloved homosexual friend or healed one.

I read some blog a while back claiming David and Jonathan were lovers. And of course, David being a man after God's own heart and all....

At the same time, we need to remember that we are 2000+ years away from the events in the Bible. We live in a completely different culture, and it is extremely difficult not to look at things through the filter of our modern times, our nation, our gender, our religious affiliation and our life experiences.

The truth is, that given what we known of ancient Roman and Greek culture, male homosexuality was common. I read a great book once called The History of the Wife, and I remember it talking about how in Roman Upper Classes it was believed that only two men were capable of true love and affection, and that women were for the necessary evil of procreation.

So knowing that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that there might have been gay people mentioned in the Bible stories, and to try to understand the stories of Jesus and His parables in context.

However, I tend to believe that if it was important, it would be explicitly mentioned, and there would be no need for conjecture. (Unless of course, there was a mass conspiracy! LOL)

[Aquila]

I didn't see any "Bible Scholarship" in your post. Have a reference?

Just Google the extensive usage of "pais" in Greek and Roman literature.

[Aquila]

I pray for those who are born again and struggle with this sin. I pray that God has as much grace and mercy for them as He has with me and my family. I pray that God give them assurance of their salvation to silence the lies of the enemy. And that God give them a revelation of divine grace. I pray that they receive the transforming truth of the Spirit and that they grow in Christ-lines day by day, in the shadow of the cross.

I just felt in the Spirit that someone reading this might need to hear words of encouragement and prayer. May God's grace and peace be with you... whoever you are.

[jfrog]

Leviticus 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.



Guess what...Jesus even "broke the Law of Moses" (Torah) to get her out of being killed. (He "rescued" her from the judgement of the Law). He just said for her to stop committing adultery.

Boy, I just opened a can of worms.

Sean, Jesus didnt break that law by letting the adulteress go free. Jesus pointed out that she shouldn't be put to death if the man involved wasnt also. The law you quoted says they both shall be put to death. Without both being pit to death that law cannot be followed.

[Sean]

Sean, Jesus didnt break that law by letting the adulteress go free. Jesus pointed out that she shouldn't be put to death if the man involved wasnt also. The law you quoted says they both shall be put to death. Without both being pit to death that law cannot be followed.



What Jesus did was in direct contradiction to the Law of Lev. 20:10

Leviticus 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Jesus "rescued" her from the judgement of Torah, breaking the Law in the process.

We only ASSUME about the other party not being judged. These Jews knew the Law and practiced it closely. You must realize she was caught in the very act. Judged and condemned according to the above passage and was on her way to the stoning pit. They brought her to Jesus to see what He thought about the Law because Jesus had broke the Law or advocated breaking it to others several times already. That is why they brought her to Him first. To see if He would do it again.

[jfrog]

What Jesus did was in direct contradiction to the Law of Lev. 20:10

Leviticus 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Jesus "rescued" her from the judgement of Torah, breaking the Law in the process.

We only ASSUME about the other party not being judged. These Jews knew the Law and practiced it closely. You must realize she was caught in the very act. Judged and condemned according to the above passage and was on her way to the stoning pit. They brought her to Jesus to see what He thought about the Law because Jesus had broke the Law or advocated breaking it to others several times already. That is why they brought her to Him first. To see if He would do it again.

You are assuming the man was judged as well. It was only lawful for them both to be put to death.

[Sean]

I have since day 1, heard the ASSUMPTION that the man was not judged, only the woman.

That is a complete (assumption or fabrication) on the part of the law keeper crowd, to justify "partial Law" keeping. Or to say Jesus kept the law "perfectly".

They say Jesus only stopped the stoning because it was "illegally" done.(because the man wasnt judged)

But the reality is, if the man ran away, they still had an obligation to kill the woman and deal with him later according to the Law. It would still not get her off the hook.

Jesus simply disregarded the Torah and rescued her from its' wrath.



I can show you more instances of Jesus breaking the Torah, if you wish.

[jfrog]

I have since day 1, heard the ASSUMPTION that the man was not judged, only the woman.

That is a complete (assumption or fabrication) on the part of the law keeper crowd, to justify "partial Law" keeping. Or to say Jesus kept the law "perfectly".

They say Jesus only stopped the stoning because it was "illegally" done.(because the man wasnt judged)

But the reality is, if the man ran away, they still had an obligation to kill the woman and deal with him later according to the Law. It would still not get her off the hook.

Jesus simply disregarded the Torah and rescued her from its' wrath.



I can show you more instances of Jesus breaking the Torah, if you wish.

Really? If the Torah says they shall both be out to death and you only put 1 to death then who is breaking the Torah?

[Sean]

I guess you think its "all or nothing" huh, boy, find me that "stipulation" in the Torah.

[jfrog]

I guess you think its "all or nothing" huh, boy, find me that "stipulation" in the Torah.

Find where it's not.

[shazeep]

i have no proof here, but have read commentary on the passage that said basically that this law, like many others in that degenerate Jewish period, was being abused to the patriarchs' advantage.

[Sean]

Jfrog, what a slick idea. All you need to do is "split up" the adulterers to "nullify" the Law completely in your interpretation. Hmmm.

Maybe we can apply that same concept in Leviticus when homos lie together or when a human lies with an animal. Just let one get away and the other one gets automatically spared.

Maybe Jesus was writing in the sand, "where is the guy she was with?"(so he could use this "stipulation" to get her out of trouble).....even though he really said," let Him that is without sin...."(nothing to do with the guy)

You think this is ridiculous, but this is what I have heard consistently from pulpits for nearly 35 years.

[FlamingZword]

Jfrog, what a slick idea. All you need to do is "split up" the adulterers to "nullify" the Law completely in your interpretation. Hmmm.

Maybe we can apply that same concept in Leviticus when homos lie together or when a human lies with an animal. Just let one get away and the other one gets automatically spared.

Maybe Jesus was writing in the sand, "where is the guy she was with?"(so he could use this "stipulation" to get her out of trouble).....even though he really said," let Him that is without sin...."(nothing to do with the guy)

You think this is ridiculous, but this is what I have heard consistently from pulpits for nearly 35 years.

I heard it once that he was writing the sins of those present, so when the time when for the stoning, none of them was able to cast a stone, for they saw their sins in his writings.

[Aquila]

Sean, Jesus didnt break that law by letting the adulteress go free. Jesus pointed out that she shouldn't be put to death if the man involved wasnt also. The law you quoted says they both shall be put to death. Without both being pit to death that law cannot be followed.

Are you implying that Jesus would have ordered her stoning if the man was brought before him too???

[Aquila]

The real issue is that the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus. Under Roman law the Jewish authorities had no authority to issue a death sentence that wasn't approved by the Roman governor. They wanted to trap Jesus by tricking Him into ordering her execution. Had Jesus done this... they would have reported it to the Roman authorities and had Jesus arrested and tried for sedition.

Jesus handled it quite well, turning the tables on them, condemning their sin, and forgiving the woman's sin all at the same time. Also notice... Christ wrote in the sand twice. As was custom, Jesus wrote their accusation. Then He spoke and wrote His verdict. If no one could find fault with the verdict... the verdict stood.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Sean, Jesus didnt break that law by letting the adulteress go free. Jesus pointed out that she shouldn't be put to death if the man involved wasnt also. The law you quoted says they both shall be put to death. Without both being pit to death that law cannot be followed.QUOTE


Are you implying that Jesus would have ordered her stoning if the man was brought before him too???QUOTE(aquila)
__________________





OOH, good question, now why didnt I think of that!

[jfrog]

Are you implying that Jesus would have ordered her stoning if the man was brought before him too???

Ordered? I wouldn't use that word. I'm just sayin we don't know if he would have interfered with the stoning if the man was also present.

[jfrog]

The real issue is that the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus. Under Roman law the Jewish authorities had no authority to issue a death sentence that wasn't approved by the Roman governor. They wanted to trap Jesus by tricking Him into ordering her execution. Had Jesus done this... they would have reported it to the Roman authorities and had Jesus arrested and tried for sedition.

Jesus handled it quite well, turning the tables on them, condemning their sin, and forgiving the woman's sin all at the same time. Also notice... Christ wrote in the sand twice. As was custom, Jesus wrote their accusation. Then He spoke and wrote His verdict. If no one could find fault with the verdict... the verdict stood.

Well said and interesting.

[Light]

Ordered? I wouldn't use that word. I'm just sayin we don't know if he would have interfered with the stoning if the man was also present.

Jesus was prohibited from executing punishment of sinners by God.

In the 11th chapter of Isaiah God reveals what Jesus role would be while on earth in verses 1 through 3. Verses 4 through 16 concern the end time.


Isa 11:1    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Jesus) shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2    And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3    And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isa 42:1    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2    He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3    A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

[Aquila]

Ordered? I wouldn't use that word. I'm just sayin we don't know if he would have interfered with the stoning if the man was also present.

I believe that you are missing the point my friends. This wasn't about the woman's adultery. It wasn't about the Law of Moses and to stone or not to stone. This was indeed a political trap designed to ruin Jesus. You see, had Jesus agreed with the Law of Moses and ordered her stoning, they could have had Jesus arrested by the Roman authorities and executed for murder; seeing that no Jewish authority was authorized to issue executions. However, if Jesus would have ordered the woman to go free... He would have been in contempt of the Law of Moses and religiously discredited as a rabbi. They were poised to either destroy Jesus one way or another. However, Jesus turned the tables. Christ rightfully convicted her. Then He set the standard of her execution. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Because of these words, the Pharisees and Sadducees had to examine their own hearts before God. And no man is sinless before God. However, we know that the Pharisees prided themselves on being pure and sinless. Thus the Pharisees were put in a pickle. Either acknowledge that they too are sinners before God... and allow the woman to live. Or... continue in their hypocrisy of professed sinless perfection and execute her themselves... against Roman law.

Jesus turned the tables and things got real. :)

[Sean]

There are other areas where Jesus broke the Torah(Law) also.

[FlamingZword]

There are other areas where Jesus broke the Torah(Law) also.

This is an erroneous assumption, Jesus never once broke the Torah, that would have been sin, and Jesus never once sinned.

There were times when Jesus disregarded the traditions of the elders but he never once broke the Torah.

[Sean]

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

[jfrog]

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

Interesting. He did claim that God was his Father. The jews clearly understood that. They also appear to have understood that he broke the sabbath. (Of course the laws pertaining sabbath keeping were more traditions than written down laws in the bible. So maybe johns understanding of the sabbath was more related to the traditions regarding it than the actual biblical mandates around it). I can see either way. I don't think that passage is enough to say Jesus broke the law of moses.

[TGBTG]

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

I think Jesus' statement here says the opposite.
Matt 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

About the accusation levied against Him in John 5:19, the context shows the Pharisees were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath based on their own understanding/tradition of Sabbath keeping, not necessarily that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath.

Notice below:

John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. (Jesus had just healed the bed-ridden man at the pool of Bethesda)
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Luke 13
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 1
2 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.”
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Luke 12
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

[Sean]

I think Jesus' statement here says the opposite.
Matt 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Fulfill means to "finish" ful·fill
fo͝olˈfil/Submit
verb
1.
bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"he wouldn't be able to fulfill his ambition to visit Naples"
synonyms: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy


18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


They were completed or "accomplished" when Jesus said.."it is finished"


19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


He is speaking of in Matt. 5, the teachings of HIS commandments, or "the NEW COVENANT" he was introducing, this teaching would eventually "abolish" the Law to the believer. But would not be in effect until years later at Pentecost.



About the accusation levied against Him in John 5:19, the context shows the Pharisees were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath based on their own understanding/tradition of Sabbath keeping, not necessarily that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath.


These were not "accusations" as you assume, John(the author) himself said... "Jesus broke the sabbath", and to top that, Jesus said it was his Father that put him up to it(instigated it)...5:17-21


Notice below:

John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. (Jesus had just healed the bed-ridden man at the pool of Bethesda)
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


They knew he specifically "picked a fight" with them, when he told the man to pick up his bed and walk. This was FORBIDDEN on the Sabbath Day(carrying the bed)
Exodus 20 says....
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do (ANY) work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

This was not really about the "healing" part, it was about telling the man to carry his bed through town, which was big time WORK...
They thought, "what in the world is this guy doing, carrying his bed through town, they asked the guy ,,,"who told you to do that", and he said "the guy that healed me"...Matt 5;8-12

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?




Luke 13
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 1
2 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.”
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Luke 12
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.



Amen, Jesus "disregarded" Exodus 20 and its consequences of disobeying the Law of keeping the sabbath on a regular basis.

[jfrog]

Amen, Jesus "disregarded" Exodus 20 and its consequences of disobeying the Law of keeping the sabbath on a regular basis.

Ummm Jesus actually pointed out the jews hypocrisy over that law. He said they would help goats and cows that fall in a ditch but wouldn't help another man that was basically in the same shape.

Why would the jews help goats and cows in that way? Because it was lawful for them to. The jews just added unlawful requirements to keeping the sabbath and jesus did break those.

[Sean]

Bro. look what I said, it was about "picking up his bed" that caused the problem. They "had" Jesus boxed in on that one and he did not defend it. He just said his Father tells him to do these things, putting the blame on his Father. That is why I posted that last post the way I did. Just read it carefully and you will see specifically what happened there.

Brother, "healing" on the sabbath was not even the thought here. If Jesus would not have wanted to make a scene, he should have told him to get his bed tomorrow. This passage was all about doing (physical work) on the sabbath, not healing the man. If the man was allowed to carry his bed, what would stop EVERYONE from doing some type of physical labor and wrecking the very intent of Exodus 10. Jesus was undermining the Torah and John said he did in fact "brake the sabbath" in verse 18.

[jfrog]

Bro. look what I said, it was about "picking up his bed" that caused the problem. They "had" Jesus boxed in on that one and he did not defend it. He just said his Father tells him to do these things, putting the blame on his Father. That is why I posted that last post the way I did. Just read it carefully and you will see specifically what happened there.

Brother, "healing" on the sabbath was not even the thought here. If Jesus would not have wanted to make a scene, he should have told him to get his bed tomorrow. This passage was all about doing (physical work) on the sabbath, not healing the man. If the man was allowed to carry his bed, what would stop EVERYONE from doing some type of physical labor and wrecking the very intent of Exodus 10. Jesus was undermining the Torah and John said he did in fact "brake the sabbath" in verse 18.

The breaking the sabbath quote is easily defeated as I've already shown. The having him take up his bed is more interesting. I'm not sure it biblically qualified as work though.

[Sean]

10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
This is not the issue???

If you were one of the pharisees of that moment, Im sure you would have reminded them that carrying his bed wasnt work(only hard, all day work is work), even though Exodus says not to do "ANY" work(and a man was ordered by God to be stoned to death under disobedience just for picking up sticks on the sabbath). If you look real hard, you will find out the issue ,in the mind of the pharisees, was about the above thread. And John qualifies it by saying Jesus BRAKE the sabbath.

VS 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

If you dont believe it is work, try carrying a baby crib mattress and blankets half way across town and see what you think.

[FlamingZword]

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.

This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

He had broken the Sabbath in their minds only, but not according to the Torah.
He was a perfect "Law Keeper" for if he was not then he could not have met the demands of the Law and he could not have redeemed us.

If Jesus had failed to keep perfectly the Torah, then it would have proven the unrighteousness of the law. The Law was perfect and it took a perfect man to keep it. He was without any blemish, he was perfect in every way.

[Sean]

Jesus was a repeat, Law breaker. Just the opposite. That is one of the main reasons he was crucified(they hated him). He did things with "blatant disregard" for the Law.

I already dealt with the woman caught in adultery, that Jesus rescued her from the judgement of the Law.

I already dealt with Jesus telling the healed lame man to "carry' his bed through the city on the sabbath.

Want to hear more? I have more...

I like to use Torah comparisons in its exact wording on keeping the Law and its consequences for not keeping it.

If Jesus lived in the days of Moses, and did the things he did, he would have been rightfully put to death by the Law. (gleaning corn on the sabbath, putting a guy up to carrying his bed across town, etc).



I want to submit this thought to you brother. Jesus came to "end" the Law for the believer. He was just introducing the NEW COVENANT, yet he left the main doctrine of our "freedom from the law"(new covenant) in the hands of the Apostles. For AFTER the church began.