Is God fair?

[Timmy]

Is God fair?

[justlookin]

Is God fair?

You're very angry with God, aren't you?

[Aquila]

God is not fair. God is "just". Two very very different things. If God were "fair"... we'd all be doomed.

[Timmy]

You're very angry with God, aren't you?

No. Why do you say that?

[Timmy]

God is not fair. God is "just". Two very very different things. If God were "fair"... we'd all be doomed.

How are they "very different things"?

And in what way is God not fair?

[Timmy]

God is not fair. God is "just". Two very very different things. If God were "fair"... we'd all be doomed.

Why did you choose "Other" in the poll? You just said "God is not fair." Sounds like a "No" to me.

[bishoph]

God is NOT fair...if he were everyone would receive the same thing....i.e. if Timmy got a new house...to be fair I would have to get a new house as well. God is just, however which is agreeing/judging/treating situations/people according to what is morally right.

[justlookin]

No. Why do you say that?

I just observe you always questioning God, never praising God for what He's done in your life. Nothing wrong with questioning God in itself, but there should also be submission to His will and purpose for or lives and praise should be a part of every believer's life.

I think you've trusted and and God didn't come through, didn't show up as you thought He should. And you're wrestling with that. It seems there's a very very deep wound, a very deep hurt in you.

Do you have anything to praise God about?

[Timmy]

I just observe you always questioning God, never praising God for what He's done in your life. Nothing wrong with questioning God in itself, but there should also be submission to His will and purpose for or lives and praise should be a part of every believer's life.

I think you've trusted and and God didn't come through, didn't show up as you thought He should. And you're wrestling with that. It seems there's a very very deep wound, a very deep hurt in you.

Do you have anything to praise God about?

Great question. The way I see it, we don't know and can't know what God has "done for us", if anything. There are good things that happen to us, and there are bad things. Most things are probably somewhere in a spectrum, actually, and are really a mix of good and bad. But did God have anything to do with them happening?

Could it be said that, at least in some cases, I make thing happen, with my own efforts? And that I make mistakes? And that sometimes things are just random?

Any claims that God made this or that happen, whether for reward or for punishment, are mere speculations. And I, for one, don't see any value in it.

IMO. ;)

[justlookin]

Great question. The way I see it, we don't know and can't know what God has "done for us", if anything. There are good things that happen to us, and there are bad things. Most things are probably somewhere in a spectrum, actually, and are really a mix of good and bad. But did God have anything to do with them happening?

Could it be said that, at least in some cases, I make thing happen, with my own efforts? And that I make mistakes? And that sometimes things are just random?

Any claims that God made this or that happen, whether for reward or for punishment, are mere speculations. And I, for one, don't see any value in it.

IMO. ;)

Ok, thanks. What would be your answer to your question? :)

[Timmy]

Ok, thanks. What would be your answer to your question? :)

Other. ;)

[Luke]

God is not fair. God is "just". Two very very different things. If God were "fair"... we'd all be doomed.

My exact answer God is just and always does right.

[Timmy]

My exact answer God is just and always does right.

While we're waiting for Aquila to answer my questions, maybe you could take a stab.

How are they "very different things"?

And in what way is God not fair?

[Timmy]

Wow, Yes breaks into a commanding lead with 6 votes! No and Other are left in Yes's dust!

[Timmy]

This poll was inspired by this "excellent" video:

This is an excellent video. I thought that I'd share it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw

At 2:36, a girl who is "not good enough", after seeing someone else that doesn't have to be put on the good-o-meter (Jesus takes his place on it, who is, of course "good enough") and gets to go to heaven, and whose "file" isn't even opened before it's thrown into a heap, says "Hey, wait a minute. That is totally not fair." (Then one of the angels snarks to the other one, "that's why it's called grace." Nyuk nyuk, nyuk.)

So is she right? Is it totally not fair how things are set up? Nobody can be good enough? And the lucky ones who hear the Gospel (the correct version of it) and believe it and obey it well enough get to have Jesus weighed instead of them and get a reward for it, even though they don't deserve it?

Is grace unfair?

[Aquila]

This poll was inspired by this "excellent" video:



At 2:36, a girl who is "not good enough", after seeing someone else that doesn't have to be put on the good-o-meter (Jesus takes his place on it, who is, of course "good enough") and gets to go to heaven, and whose "file" isn't even opened before it's thrown into a heap, says "Hey, wait a minute. That is totally not fair." (Then one of the angels snarks to the other one, "that's why it's called grace." Nyuk nyuk, nyuk.)

So is she right? Is it totally not fair how things are set up? Nobody can be good enough? And the lucky ones who hear the Gospel (the correct version of it) and believe it and obey it well enough get to have Jesus weighed instead of them and get a reward for it, even though they don't deserve it?

Is grace unfair?

Yes, grace is unfair. If grace were "fair"... it wouldn't be "grace".

You see, I believe that God knows all things and is absolutely sovereign regarding His creation. God knew that all of mankind would sin and become unworthy of eternal life. However, God didn't want His creation, man, to be lost forever. Therefore, God designed a plan whereby a remnant of man would be saved. This remnant was chosen by God in eternity to be saved. These are the elect children of God. While God's actions may not prove to be "fair", they are just in that the plan is in accordance to God's sovereign will. God's ultimate goal... to receive glory, honor, and power as God. If not for this divine intervention (divine election) EVERY soul would be lost forever. While God demonstrates and reveals His holiness, justice, and judgment against sin in the wicked, God also demonstrates and reveals His grace, mercy, and forgiveness in the elect. As a result... God's holiness and authority is affirmed... while His grace and mercy is demonstrated. While we may not like the plan... the plan is the sovereign will of God, our creator, regarding His creation.

So no, grace isn't fair. As a believer, that haunts me and brings me to my knees... knowing that I too deserve condemnation.

[Aquila]

While we're waiting for Aquila to answer my questions, maybe you could take a stab.

How are they "very different things"?

And in what way is God not fair?

Let's say that you have three children. One turns twelve and you purchase a bicycle for them. The second one turns twelve, and you purchase a bicycle for them also. However, your third child turns twelve and you decide to buy them a video game. Why? You know your third child is irresponsible and has a habit of playing in the streets. You don't want them to be harmed. So, until you feel they are responsible enough, you refrain from buying them a bicycle. Now, the first thing out of the mouth of the third child will be, "But dad... that's not FAIR." No, it isn't. However, it is "just". Why? Because your actions are for the greater good.

So, no. Being "fair" and being "just" are two vastly different things.

[Luke]

While we're waiting for Aquila to answer my questions, maybe you could take a stab.

How are they "very different things"?

And in what way is God not fair?

To put it very very simply:

To be just is to do what is right in other words God always does what is right even though we may not understand the how what or the why we can trust that God always doe what is right.

To be fair would be to give everyone the samething. If God heals one person He would then be under oblagation to healeveryone when really it may not be best in the big picture to heal everyone. There have been people down through history that have been used by God and have been able to have a profound affect upon multitudes because of their infirmity. Another example would be if God answered one prayer with a yes then He would then be under oblagation of fairness to answer everyone's prayer with a yes. I for one am very glad that he does not always answer all of our prayers with a yes.

Because God knows best He is just instead of fair.

[Timmy]

Yes, grace is unfair. If grace were "fair"... it wouldn't be "grace".

You see, I believe that God knows all things and is absolutely sovereign regarding His creation. God knew that all of mankind would sin and become unworthy of eternal life. However, God didn't want His creation, man, to be lost forever. Therefore, God designed a plan whereby a remnant of man would be saved. This remnant was chosen by God in eternity to be saved. These are the elect children of God. While God's actions may not prove to be "fair", they are just in that the plan is in accordance to God's sovereign will. God's ultimate goal... to receive glory, honor, and power as God. If not for this divine intervention (divine election) EVERY soul would be lost forever. While God demonstrates and reveals His holiness, justice, and judgment against sin in the wicked, God also demonstrates and reveals His grace, mercy, and forgiveness in the elect. As a result... God's holiness and authority is affirmed... while His grace and mercy is demonstrated. While we may not like the plan... the plan is the sovereign will of God, our creator, regarding His creation.

So no, grace isn't fair. As a believer, that haunts me and brings me to my knees... knowing that I too deserve condemnation.

You know what the girl meant, I think. It was unfair to punish her for being "not good enough" (which we all are -- the tiniest imperfection is enough to burn for) and reward this other fellow, who could have been a child-rapist for all we know. Maybe she never heard of Jesus. Maybe she heard of him but didn't believe what some of her follow humans claimed about him.

Is grace unfair to those who will not experience it?

[Pressing-On]

To put it very very simply:

To be just is to do what is right in other words God always does what is right even though we may not understand the how what or the why we can trust that God always doe what is right.

To be fair would be to give everyone the samething. If God heals one person He would then be under oblagation to healeveryone when really it may not be best in the big picture to heal everyone. There have been people down through history that have been used by God and have been able to have a profound affect upon multitudes because of their infirmity. Another example would be if God answered one prayer with a yes then He would then be under oblagation of fairness to answer everyone's prayer with a yes. I for one am very glad that he does not always answer all of our prayers with a yes.

Because God knows best He is just instead of fair.

I think being "just" also makes you "fair" in your dealings.

[Timmy]

To put it very very simply:

To be just is to do what is right in other words God always does what is right even though we may not understand the how what or the why we can trust that God always doe what is right.

To be fair would be to give everyone the samething. If God heals one person He would then be under oblagation to healeveryone when really it may not be best in the big picture to heal everyone. There have been people down through history that have been used by God and have been able to have a profound affect upon multitudes because of their infirmity. Another example would be if God answered one prayer with a yes then He would then be under oblagation of fairness to answer everyone's prayer with a yes. I for one am very glad that he does not always answer all of our prayers with a yes.

Because God knows best He is just instead of fair.

Thanks.

I guess I'll just keep on disagreeing, then. IMO, it very, very far from "just" to punish most humans for being something they couldn't not be. For failing to accomplish an impossible task. (And not being lucky enough to hear about and believe and obey the instructions on how to avoid their "just" punishment.)

The way is narrow and few can find it. Narrow! That "way" that was made by God! He made it narrow!

According to some ancient writings, of course.

[Timmy]

I think being "just" also makes you "fair" in your dealings.

Well, yeah! :thumbsup

[justlookin]

This poll was inspired by this "excellent" video:



At 2:36, a girl who is "not good enough", after seeing someone else that doesn't have to be put on the good-o-meter (Jesus takes his place on it, who is, of course "good enough") and gets to go to heaven, and whose "file" isn't even opened before it's thrown into a heap, says "Hey, wait a minute. That is totally not fair." (Then one of the angels snarks to the other one, "that's why it's called grace." Nyuk nyuk, nyuk.)

So is she right? Is it totally not fair how things are set up? Nobody can be good enough? And the lucky ones who hear the Gospel (the correct version of it) and believe it and obey it well enough get to have Jesus weighed instead of them and get a reward for it, even though they don't deserve it?

Is grace unfair?

Nope.

[Timmy]

Let's say that you have three children. One turns twelve and you purchase a bicycle for them. The second one turns twelve, and you purchase a bicycle for them also. However, your third child turns twelve and you decide to buy them a video game. Why? You know your third child is irresponsible and has a habit of playing in the streets. You don't want them to be harmed. So, until you feel they are responsible enough, you refrain from buying them a bicycle. Now, the first thing out of the mouth of the third child will be, "But dad... that's not FAIR." No, it isn't. However, it is "just". Why? Because your actions are for the greater good.

So, no. Being "fair" and being "just" are two vastly different things.

And being ridiculous and being absurd are vastly different, too. I guess. :lol

[Luke]

You know what the girl meant, I think. It was unfair to punish her for being "not good enough" (which we all are -- the tiniest imperfection is enough to burn for) and reward this other fellow, who could have been a child-rapist for all we know. Maybe she never heard of Jesus. Maybe she heard of him but didn't believe what some of her follow humans claimed about him.

Is grace unfair to those who will not experience it?

No grace is very fair in that it will do the same thing to anyone who accepts it.

The real question (imo) that is being addressed here in the above quoted post is not about grace but rather about God's judgement of the lost. Mankind is judged according to there deeds this is shown over and over again in scripture. I have yet to see any passage about the future judgment that says we are judged on anything other than our works, deeds, or actions. In other words it is fair because all have sinned and all can be saved by faith in Jesus. On judgement day we will not be judged as to what we beleived but what we did. If a person lived a life of sin and never repented they will have to answer for those sins. If a person repented of their sins and through the power and grace of God lived above sin they will not have sins to answer for since their past sins have been removed by Christ and they lived their lives in obedience to Him.

[Luke]

Thanks.

I guess I'll just keep on disagreeing, then. IMO, it very, very far from "just" to punish most humans for being something they couldn't not be. For failing to accomplish an impossible task. (And not being lucky enough to hear about and believe and obey the instructions on how to avoid their "just" punishment.)

The way is narrow and few can find it. Narrow! That "way" that was made by God! He made it narrow!

According to some ancient writings, of course.

What is it that they cannot be?

[Aquila]

You know what the girl meant, I think. It was unfair to punish her for being "not good enough" (which we all are -- the tiniest imperfection is enough to burn for) and reward this other fellow, who could have been a child-rapist for all we know. Maybe she never heard of Jesus. Maybe she heard of him but didn't believe what some of her follow humans claimed about him.

Is grace unfair to those who will not experience it?

When God punishes a person, He punishes them for their sins. Therefore, the punishment is always just.

[Aquila]

Thanks.

I guess I'll just keep on disagreeing, then. IMO, it very, very far from "just" to punish most humans for being something they couldn't not be.

There is the disconnect. You see... no one will be punished for anything other than their sins. Their sins. The sins they committed. Thus, the punishment is just.

For failing to accomplish an impossible task. (And not being lucky enough to hear about and believe and obey the instructions on how to avoid their "just" punishment.)

Regardless... they are punished for their "sins". For example, let's say that I get pulled over for speeding by a friend, Rick (a County Sheriff). He gives me a warning and we talk about our next camping trip. Now, you're speeding down the same road and Rick pulls you over and gives you a speeding ticket. Was your ticket "unfair" or "unjust"? No. You broke the law. Now, was the mercy shown to me "fair"? Nope. But seeing that it was his discretion, and he was a friend, it's just because he has the authority to make that decision and did so.

The way is narrow and few can find it. Narrow! That "way" that was made by God! He made it narrow!

According to some ancient writings, of course.

....

[Aquila]

And being ridiculous and being absurd are vastly different, too. I guess. :lol

I've given each of my children varying responsibilities and rewards based on their personalities. And, yes, it seems that I'm not fair to them. I'm not. I'd never allow one of them to walk 11 houses down the road to grandma's unsupervised. However, the other I would. Am I fair? Nope. But I'm just.

[Aquila]

No grace is very fair in that it will do the same thing to anyone who accepts it.

The real question (imo) that is being addressed here in the above quoted post is not about grace but rather about God's judgement of the lost. Mankind is judged according to there deeds this is shown over and over again in scripture. I have yet to see any passage about the future judgment that says we are judged on anything other than our works, deeds, or actions. In other words it is fair because all have sinned and all can be saved by faith in Jesus. On judgement day we will not be judged as to what we beleived but what we did. If a person lived a life of sin and never repented they will have to answer for those sins. If a person repented of their sins and through the power and grace of God lived above sin they will not have sins to answer for since their past sins have been removed by Christ and they lived their lives in obedience to Him.

Great points. However, even in that perspective, grace is unfair because not all have a chance to hear the Gospel and countless die without ever truly hearing the Gospel every day.

[Luke]

Great points. However, even in that perspective, grace is unfair because not all have a chance to hear the Gospel and countless die without ever truly hearing the Gospel every day.

These are some of the very questions that i have had to answer from the young people in my youth group the best answer that i know of is to this seeming unfairness is found in two places:

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


No man sins because he has to rather they sin because they want to and choose to.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Even though corneliusdid not know the truth he had made a choice to try and follow after what he knew to be right (to live a righteous life) and to seek for truth. This was not sufficient to save him otherwise why did the angel tell him to send for peter so he could be told what to do? Even it was not enough to save him because of his desire and actions God pointed him in the right direction and to the person who could show him the truth.

Therefore because of this i believe that i can say that God's grace is fair because if a person chooses to forsake all known sin and seek after God I firmly believe that God will lead them to someone who can show them the truth.

Why then does this seem to not always happen? This question points us to a sad passage in the Bible:

Ezk 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Unfortunatly there are times when God tell us to witness to someone or to go to a person who we may not even know and speak to them and we fail to obey this is not God's fault or failure rather it is ours.

[crakjak]

These are some of the very questions that i have had to answer from the young people in my youth group the best answer that i know of is to this seeming unfairness is found in two places:

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


No man sins because he has to rather they sin because they want to and choose to.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Even though corneliusdid not know the truth he had made a choice to try and follow after what he knew to be right (to live a righteous life) and to seek for truth. This was not sufficient to save him otherwise why did the angel tell him to send for peter so he could be told what to do? Even it was not enough to save him because of his desire and actions God pointed him in the right direction and to the person who could show him the truth.

Therefore because of this i believe that i can say that God's grace is fair because if a person chooses to forsake all known sin and seek after God I firmly believe that God will lead them to someone who can show them the truth.

Why then does this seem to not always happen? This question points us to a sad passage in the Bible:

Ezk 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Unfortunatly there are times when God tell us to witness to someone or to go to a person who we may not even know and speak to them and we fail to obey this is not God's fault or failure rather it is ours.

So, due the human failure of a third party, God sends folks to hell?
This cannot be.... It is very contrary to "...God is not a respecter of persons....."


God is love, and all that that entails.

Humans attribute all kinds of things to God, that is simply human interpretation.

Information properly interpreted produces knowledge and wisdom, improperly interpreted produces confusion.

Faith is believing that God is Love, and living accordingly, knowing that as humans, it is impossible for us to properly interpret God as He truly is. Just read this thread, it is a bunch of confusion, so the info is improperly interpreted.

I did not vote, because, I do not judge God, except that He is love and that's enough for me. It's His world, and I believe...."the judge of the world will do right..." In that confidence, I live in peace and expectation. If He, in whom "...we live and move and have our being, and in whom all things are held together..." didn't have a righteous and glorious plan for all humans, He would not have create us.

So, get over the fear and live in His provision....!!!!

[Timmy]

What is it that they cannot be?

Perfect. Innocent. Sinless.

[Luke]

[/B]

So, due the human failure of a third party, God sends folks to hell?
This cannot be.... It is very contrary to "...God is not a respecter of persons....."

Your argument is with God and the Bible not with me.

Ezk 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand

[Pressing-On]

[/B]

So, due the human failure of a third party, God sends folks to hell?
This cannot be.... It is very contrary to "...God is not a respecter of persons....."

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
I believe that Acts 10 lays out the idea that in any nation that fears Him and works righteousness, in those diverse places, He accepts anyone, because He is not a respecter of persons.

It is not saying that He accepts anyone without condition.

There are no promises in the Bible that don't have a condition, Deut 28 being a prime example - "IF you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:" Deut 28:1 (NIV)

The Gospel comes with condition - it is freely given, but with a condition of acceptance - "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know (to see) not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Timmy]

I've given each of my children varying responsibilities and rewards based on their personalities. And, yes, it seems that I'm not fair to them. I'm not. I'd never allow one of them to walk 11 houses down the road to grandma's unsupervised. However, the other I would. Am I fair? Nope. But I'm just.

But it's not a good analogy. We are discussing the eternal fates of each human. The way things are set up (if we are to believe the Bible, and certain interpretations of it), the majority of us will be found lacking. "Not good enough", as the video so smugly puts it. It is impossible for anyone to actually be good enough. Some of us have tiny flaws, some of us are vile: either way, to hell we go.

There is no similarity at all to your little story. We won't be sent to hell for our own safety. It's purely vindictive punishment, plain and simple. And it (according to some versions of the story) is way out of proportion to the "crime".

Please. Try again. ;)

[crakjak]

I believe that Acts 10 lays out the idea that in any nation that fears Him and works righteousness, in those diverse places, He accepts anyone, because He is not a respecter of persons.

It is not saying that He accepts anyone without condition.

There are no promises in the Bible that don't have a condition, Deut 28 being a prime example - "IF you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:" Deut 28:1 (NIV)

The Gospel comes with condition - it is freely given, but with a condition of acceptance - "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know (to see) not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:8

I have no problem with accountability and judgment.

I don't believe the traditional conclusion of the accountability and judgment. There are many consequences of one actions in this life and I'm sure in the life to come. But you cannot believe the traditional view of "hell" and also honestly believe that "God is fair or just".

Some define hell in the traditional sense and declare God just and fair, just because it is what God does. That is sheer nonsense, if a doctrine is NOT just or fair, that doctrine is a very false doctrine, and humans that believe it are ignorant or stupid, and "...know NOT God..."

[crakjak]

Your argument is with God and the Bible not with me.

Ezk 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand

You are incorrect, my argument is with your improper interpretation of God and His intentions.

[crakjak]

[/B]

So, due the human failure of a third party, God sends folks to hell?
This cannot be.... It is very contrary to "...God is not a respecter of persons....."


God is love, and all that that entails.

Humans attribute all kinds of things to God, that is simply human interpretation.

Information properly interpreted produces knowledge and wisdom, improperly interpreted produces confusion.

Faith is believing that God is Love, and living accordingly, knowing that as humans, it is impossible for us to properly interpret God as He truly is. Just read this thread, it is a bunch of confusion, so the info is improperly interpreted.

I did not vote, because, I do not judge God, except that He is love and that's enough for me. It's His world, and I believe...."the judge of the world will do right..." In that confidence, I live in peace and expectation. If He, in whom "...we live and move and have our being, and in whom all things are held together..." didn't have a righteous and glorious plan for all humans, He would not have create us.

So, get over the fear and live in His provision....!!!!

Bumped, so that my edit is bumped/

[Timmy]

There is the disconnect. You see... no one will be punished for anything other than their sins. Their sins. The sins they committed. Thus, the punishment is just.



Regardless... they are punished for their "sins". For example, let's say that I get pulled over for speeding by a friend, Rick (a County Sheriff). He gives me a warning and we talk about our next camping trip. Now, you're speeding down the same road and Rick pulls you over and gives you a speeding ticket. Was your ticket "unfair" or "unjust"? No. You broke the law. Now, was the mercy shown to me "fair"? Nope. But seeing that it was his discretion, and he was a friend, it's just because he has the authority to make that decision and did so.



....

Well, as I recall, you may not believe in eternal torment, so your point has some validity. :thumbsup

(BTW, in some jurisdictions, Rick may have violated policy, if not the law, by showing favoritism to a friend. Just sayin'. ;))

[Pressing-On]

I have no problem with accountability and judgment.

I don't believe the traditional conclusion of the accountability and judgment. There are many consequences of one actions in this life and I'm sure in the life to come. But you cannot believe the traditional view of "hell" and also honestly believe that "God is fair or just".

Some define hell in the traditional sense and declare God just and fair, just because it is what God does. That is sheer nonsense, if a doctrine is NOT just or fair, that doctrine is a very false doctrine, and humans that believe it are ignorant or stupid, and "...know NOT God..."

I found an interesting comment, which I didn't save, but it was regarding the Noah movie. The person was saying that as much as it wasn't true to Biblical account on many points and that they weren't especially religious, but that after viewing the movie, they came away with the thought that they could see why God wanted to annihilate the population - it was just a bunch of really evil people acting evil. I thought - great! If there was some redeeming quality from the movie, I missed that possibility. LOL!

I think we have a really hard time believing that God knows a person's heart, just like the rich young ruler - who on the outside looked all lined out in every proper way, only to find out, he wasn't as willing as he appeared to be.

I think that God went to great extent to be precise in every thing He calculated, and his grace, mercy and having the mind of not being a respecter of persons has to do with "remembering that we are dust", but it doesn't ever dismiss the rather intense fact that the assessment of our heart is at issue. We are without excuse, and only God knows these things.

So, I believe that I Cor 5:12 is saying, in effect, not to judge someone outside the church as though their life has been completed. We should confine our judgment to those inside (by their fruits).

[Luke]

Perfect. Innocent. Sinless.

We can through the blood of Jesus be all of these things.


Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Luke]

[/B]

So, due the human failure of a third party, God sends folks to hell?
This cannot be.... It is very contrary to "...God is not a respecter of persons....."

It is not that God sends them hell it is that they have earned and worked for hell and for God to withhold their wages would be unjust. mankind chooses hell. If you take somes wages from them you are called a thief would you therefore make God a thief?



God is love, and all that that entails.

Humans attribute all kinds of things to God, that is simply human interpretation.

Information properly interpreted produces knowledge and wisdom, improperly interpreted produces confusion.

Faith is believing that God is Love, and living accordingly, knowing that as humans, it is impossible for us to properly interpret God as He truly is. Just read this thread, it is a bunch of confusion, so the info is improperly interpreted.

God is first and foremost holy.




I did not vote, because, I do not judge God, except that He is love and that's enough for me. It's His world, and I believe...."the judge of the world will do right..." In that confidence, I live in peace and expectation. If He, in whom "...we live and move and have our being, and in whom all things are held together..." didn't have a righteous and glorious plan for all humans, He would not have create us.

So, get over the fear and live in His provision....!!!!

very interesting choice of scripture to back up your point seeing as how that was spoken to God by Abraham just before God went to Sodom and Gomorrah. After Abraham finishes pleading with God those two cities were destroyed because it was right. Jude gives us further info as to their state and puts it this way:

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So yes i also agree that the Judge of all the earth shall do right.

[Timmy]

Mankind chooses hell.

:toofunny

[Luke]

Mankind chooses hell.

:toofunny

Mankind chooses to sin and the wages of sin is deatherefore when mankind chooses to sin they are choosesing to earn hell.

[Timmy]

Mankind chooses to sin and the wages of sin is deatherefore when mankind chooses to sin they are choosesing to earn hell.

So, is it just a coincidence, an incredible coincidence, against astronomical odds, that it just so happens that every single human being that ever lived chose to sin?

Uh. No. Every single human who ever lived (according to the story) chooses to sin because that have to. They can't not sin. It's impossible. They were designed that way.

But don't blame the designer. That's not allowed.

[Timmy]

Not to mention that not everyone actually believes there is a hell. There is no more reason that than to believe in Valhalla or that Mormons will get their own planet in their afterlife. Choice. That's the only reason to believe in things like that.

[Luke]

So, is it just a coincidence, an incredible coincidence, against astronomical odds, that it just so happens that every single human being that ever lived chose to sin?

Uh. No. Every single human who ever lived (according to the story) chooses to sin because that have to. They can't not sin. It's impossible. They were designed that way.

But don't blame the designer. That's not allowed.

mankind chooses to sin he does not have to. If a man lies is it because he had to, the words just forced themselves out? If a man shoots and murders a man did the gun just magically appear in his hand loaded and aimed while the trigger is pulled by some unseen force? Both of these are clearly impossible. When a man lies it is to hide something that he would rather not reveal therefore he CHOOSE to lie. If a man shoots and murders someone it is because he picked up the gun pointed and pulled the trigger. no one is forced to sin but all who sin do so because they choose to.

[Luke]

Not to mention that not everyone actually believes there is a hell. There is no more reason that than to believe in Valhalla or that Mormons will get their own planet in their afterlife. Choice. That's the only reason to believe in things like that.

Not everyone believes that people landed on the moon but that doesnt change the truth.

[Carl]

So if someone chooses not to sin then they are exercising their free will to be saved? This refutes the doctrine of predestination.

[justlookin]

So if someone chooses not to sin then they are exercising their free will to be saved? This refutes the doctrine of predestination.

Maybe they were predestined to choose not to sin.

[pilgram]

Not to mention that not everyone actually believes there is a hell. There is no more reason that than to believe in Valhalla or that Mormons will get their own planet in their afterlife. Choice. That's the only reason to believe in things like that.

Just because a person refuses to believe in heaven or hell doesn't mean they will be able to avoid their judgment when their mortal coil dies.

And one more thing, the word "fair" is a human construct and isn't found in God's Word so this poll is disingenuous to begin with.

[Pressing-On]

So if someone chooses not to sin then they are exercising their free will to be saved? This refutes the doctrine of predestination.

Predestination only goes so far as predetermining the outcome - God determining what is going to be the outcome ahead of time, because He knows the end from the beginning.

Hell has enlarged itself, but Heaven is clearly written in dimensions.

Romans 10:9-10 reflects that we still have a choice - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

[Aquila]

So if someone chooses not to sin then they are exercising their free will to be saved? This refutes the doctrine of predestination.

Those who believe one can choose not to sin by free will don't understand the biblical ontology regarding human nature. I always challenge them to will not to sin from this day forward. NEVER to sin again. Period. No excuses. If they believe they can will it... they should demonstrate it. I've yet to see one succeed. Human nature is fallen. Every aspect and process of our being is corrupted: body (biology), soul (psychology), and spirit (spirituality).

Now, that doesn't mean that when we are born again that we do not partake in the divine nature in our spirits. Now, for those "born again", the spirit (the inner man) is a new creature with a new nature. It is fused, one with, filled with, baptized in, living by, the very Spirit of God. Yet the soul (the mind) needs renewed daily. It doesn't think right without study and prayer. And the flesh... the flesh is hardwired for sinful delights and it will continue to be until glorification.

One either believes that God predestines His plans and the future of the universe based on what He saw us doing in the future (divine fortune teller theory) or He is sovereignly in control of all things. Every atom. Every gust of wind. The very reigns of the human heart. Now, we do have free will... but that's where God's will and the human will meet. The righteous surrender their will to the will of their Father (sometimes even after a period of resistance, ask Paul). However, God's will shall always triumph.

God hasn't tailored His will around man's will. No sir. God's will is thrust upon man's will. Creator vs. creation. A man either surrenders His will or faces chastening or judgment. The elect will be saved. They will either surrender peacefully or be broken to bring themselves to the end of themselves. Either way... God isn't on the edge of His seat, biting His nails, hoping we make it. Nor is God staring into a crystal ball recording the names of those who choose wisely. He has it all already recorded in the annals of Heaven in accordance to His sovereign will and plan; a plan designed to bring Him... glory and honor as both Creator and GOD.

[Carl]

Maybe they were predestined to choose not to sin.

Right, that argument can be made as well. So if we don't have a choice then we're just preprogrammed bio-bots. I don't see how God gets any glory from that. And of course that's the view of God that has caused many to reject Christianity.

In demonstrating his love and desire to have a relationship with his creation God actually subordinated his sovereignty to allow us a choice. Otherwise he would not have put the tree in the garden of Eden. Seems like all the potential choices were condensed in that one original choice.

[Aquila]

Here are some Scriptures to consider as it relates to this subject. Read them slowly and actually think about what they are saying:

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 1:4-6 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:7 - What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Luke 18:7 - And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

James 1:18 - Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


Romans 9:15-18 - For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Psalms 65:4 - Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.


Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Romans 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
And the list could go on and on and on and on….

[Timmy]

Not everyone believes that people landed on the moon but that doesnt change the truth.

I have good reason to believe people landed on the moon. Zero reason to believe in hell. Not almost zero.

Zero.

Lots of people believing something doesn't mean it's true.

[Luke]

I have good reason to believe people landed on the moon. Zero reason to believe in hell. Not almost zero.

Zero.

Lots of people believing something doesn't mean it's true.

My point exactly.

[Luke]

We can through the blood of Jesus be all of these things.


Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bump. Timmy why no response?

[Luke]

Those who believe one can choose not to sin by free will don't understand the biblical ontology regarding human nature. I always challenge them to will not to sin from this day forward. NEVER to sin again. Period. No excuses. If they believe they can will it... they should demonstrate it. I've yet to see one succeed. Human nature is fallen. Every aspect and process of our being is corrupted: body (biology), soul (psychology), and spirit (spirituality).

Now, that doesn't mean that when we are born again that we do not partake in the divine nature in our spirits. Now, for those "born again", the spirit (the inner man) is a new creature with a new nature. It is fused, one with, filled with, baptized in, living by, the very Spirit of God. Yet the soul (the mind) needs renewed daily. It doesn't think right without study and prayer. And the flesh... the flesh is hardwired for sinful delights and it will continue to be until glorification.

One either believes that God predestines His plans and the future of the universe based on what He saw us doing in the future (divine fortune teller theory) or He is sovereignly in control of all things. Every atom. Every gust of wind. The very reigns of the human heart. Now, we do have free will... but that's where God's will and the human will meet. The righteous surrender their will to the will of their Father (sometimes even after a period of resistance, ask Paul). However, God's will shall always triumph.

God hasn't tailored His will around man's will. No sir. God's will is thrust upon man's will. Creator vs. creation. A man either surrenders His will or faces chastening or judgment. The elect will be saved. They will either surrender peacefully or be broken to bring themselves to the end of themselves. Either way... God isn't on the edge of His seat, biting His nails, hoping we make it. Nor is God staring into a crystal ball recording the names of those who choose wisely. He has it all already recorded in the annals of Heaven in accordance to His sovereign will and plan; a plan designed to bring Him... glory and honor as both Creator and GOD.

Aquila are you a five points calvinist?

[Timmy]

Bump. Timmy why no response?

Pointless.

[Aquila]

Right, that argument can be made as well. So if we don't have a choice then we're just preprogrammed bio-bots. I don't see how God gets any glory from that. And of course that's the view of God that has caused many to reject Christianity.

Predestination doesn’t teach that mankind is a preprogrammed bio-bot. In fact, it affirms God’s sovereignty with regards to His will and purpose. This doesn’t negate man’s free will, it only expresses the idea that in the end… God’s will triumphs in all things to bring about exactly what He desires. In other words… not only does man have free will… an Almighty Sovereign God does too! For example, Saul was on the road to Damascus, enroute to persecute Christians. But God, through Christ, shows up and rocks Saul’s world to bring Saul into compliance with God’s purpose for His life…

Acts 9:1-9 (KJV)
9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Notice something, Saul was on his way to persecute the church. However, God had a different plan. In fact, Paul wrote of God’s will and destiny regarding his calling:

Galatians 1:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

On the road to Damascus the free and human will of Saul collided with the sovereign and all-powerful will of God. God knocked Saul off his horse and appeared to him in the glorified radiance of Jesus Christ. Jesus says something that most don’t really pay attention to. Jesus said, “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Few know what this truly means. You see, oxen were used to work the soil. The prick or goad was a necessary devise. The prick was usually a wooden shaft with a pointed spike (prick) at one end. The man working the ox would position the goad in such a way as to exert influence and control over the ox. You see, if the ox refused the command indicated by the farmer, the goad would be used to jab or prick the ox. Sometimes the ox would refuse this incentive by kicking out at the prick. As result, the prick would be driven deeper into the flesh of the rebellious animal. The more the animal rebelled, the more the animal suffered. Hence, the statement to Saul: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul was rebelling against God, God had no doubt been drawing Saul and Saul was using his “free will” to resist. As a result, Saul got knocked off his horse, was personally confronted by the Lord Himself, and was then blinded! God knows exactly how to bring a rebellious elect child to the end of himself, even if it takes the most drastic of measures! Saul’s “free will” was broken as it collided with God’s sovereign and predestined plan for him. God knew it would take this. And God timed it just right. Everything according to divine plan. Notice… Saul had free will… but so did our Sovereign and All-Powerful GOD. ;)


In demonstrating his love and desire to have a relationship with his creation God actually subordinated his sovereignty to allow us a choice.

God will NEVER subordinate His sovereignty to man’s choices. Even when God permits a man's choices to affect creation, it is in accordance to God's sovereign divine plan. God subordinating His sovereignty and providence to the will of man would lead to absolute chaos. Is God the author of confusion? Nope. Imagine, in your view… Saul could have still resisted God. Would God have a “plan B”? Might Saul have already been a “plan E”??? How many Epistles should have been written by how many people who resisted??? What if God willed to save a man, and that man resisted and resisted and finally decided that it’s okay to serve God now. Then, another man, in his free will, gets into his car drunk on the same night the first man is on his way to church and BAM!, they crash into one another killing both! Poor God… I guess He really wanted that man saved… and finally got through to him…only to have another man’s free will hijack the whole plan. :(

God’s plan is working in perfect precision. The elect are being saved. And it is to reach the elect that we preach.

Man has free will. However,... so does GOD. :)

[Timmy]

My point exactly.

I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.

You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.

No thanks.

[justlookin]

I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.

You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.

No thanks.

But you do believe in some sort of 'God' or supernatural, spiritual existence, don't you?

[Timmy]

But you do believe in some sort of 'God' or supernatural, spiritual existence, don't you?

I'm agnostic, with deist leanings. ;)

[Luke]

I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.

You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.

No thanks.

You have a perfect right to believe what you choose to believe. I think we we both agree that your belief does not automaticaly negate my belief and that my belief does not automaticaly negate your belief. I think that we could also agree that one of us is right and that the other is wrong though we would disagree as to which is which lol.

I do not think that anything I believe defies logic but such is the path of belief.

[Luke]

Aquila are you a five points calvinist?

Bump

[justlookin]

I'm agnostic, with deist leanings. ;)

Ok. :)

[Aquila]

Bump

Not necessarily. I may agree with the five points to some degree. However, I interpret them differently than most monergists. I believe that irresistible grace can be brutal (if it exists).

However, I do believe in predestination. I also believe in free will. I also believe that a natural tension must exist between the two ideas to some degree given temporal vs. eternal perspective. While trapped in time, to our perception we make choices and decisions. From an eternal perspective that exists transcendent of time itself, all our choices and decisions have already taken place. They were permitted by God. Some events are definitely appointed and unstoppable. For example, the crucifixion. Paul's calling is another great example. I find great peace in believing predestination. It demonstrates that God has not abandoned us to the chaos and confusion of life. But rather, God has ordained what is to be, and appointed what must take place for a greater purpose and plan. I also realize that my witness goes forth to reach the elect... I'm not trying to convince people... Christ's sheep hear His voice, and He calls them by name. I may be one of many voices reaching to an elect soul... that will one day surrender under the power of God's irresistible grace at the appointed time.

I could be wrong. I defend it strongly, but I'm not as dogmatic as I might sound. It makes more sense to me than a God who peeps into the future and tailors His plans and will around ours. And when things go crazy in my life... I realize that it was preordained. It serves a purpose. The purpose normally to aid in conforming me into the image and likeness of Jesus. I trust in that I cannot add a single span or day to my life and that all my ways are in the palm of His hand. He is not betting on me, or hoping that I'll make it. He has chosen me. And He will bring me home... even if He has to break me to do so.

The question often asked of me is regarding our free will. I do believe in free will. However... my question is... Does God have free will? He's all knowing and all powerful. He is in absolute control and is the creator. He has a sovereign will and plan to redeem a remnant according to the election of grace. Does He not have free will to execute His desires???

So, in essence, the predestination I believe in is not relegating man to being mere "preprogrammed bio-bots". But rather, it is in the defense of God's free will and absolute authority.

[Timmy]

It's funny how you guys argue with each other more than you argue with me! :heeheehee

[Luke]

It's funny how you guys argue with each other more than you argue with me! :heeheehee

Two reason for this:

1. Other people respond faster.
2. Their post are generally more thought provoking and deep.

[Carl]

Predestination doesn’t teach that mankind is a preprogrammed bio-bot. In fact, it affirms God’s sovereignty with regards to His will and purpose. This doesn’t negate man’s free will, it only expresses the idea that in the end… God’s will triumphs in all things to bring about exactly what He desires. In other words… not only does man have free will… an Almighty Sovereign God does too! For example, Saul was on the road to Damascus, enroute to persecute Christians. But God, through Christ, shows up and rocks Saul’s world to bring Saul into compliance with God’s purpose for His life…

Acts 9:1-9 (KJV)
9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Notice something, Saul was on his way to persecute the church. However, God had a different plan. In fact, Paul wrote of God’s will and destiny regarding his calling:

Galatians 1:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

On the road to Damascus the free and human will of Saul collided with the sovereign and all-powerful will of God. God knocked Saul off his horse and appeared to him in the glorified radiance of Jesus Christ. Jesus says something that most don’t really pay attention to. Jesus said, “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Few know what this truly means. You see, oxen were used to work the soil. The prick or goad was a necessary devise. The prick was usually a wooden shaft with a pointed spike (prick) at one end. The man working the ox would position the goad in such a way as to exert influence and control over the ox. You see, if the ox refused the command indicated by the farmer, the goad would be used to jab or prick the ox. Sometimes the ox would refuse this incentive by kicking out at the prick. As result, the prick would be driven deeper into the flesh of the rebellious animal. The more the animal rebelled, the more the animal suffered. Hence, the statement to Saul: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul was rebelling against God, God had no doubt been drawing Saul and Saul was using his “free will” to resist. As a result, Saul got knocked off his horse, was personally confronted by the Lord Himself, and was then blinded! God knows exactly how to bring a rebellious elect child to the end of himself, even if it takes the most drastic of measures! Saul’s “free will” was broken as it collided with God’s sovereign and predestined plan for him. God knew it would take this. And God timed it just right. Everything according to divine plan. Notice… Saul had free will… but so did our Sovereign and All-Powerful GOD. ;)




God will NEVER subordinate His sovereignty to man’s choices. Even when God permits a man's choices to affect creation, it is in accordance to God's sovereign divine plan. God subordinating His sovereignty and providence to the will of man would lead to absolute chaos. Is God the author of confusion? Nope. Imagine, in your view… Saul could have still resisted God. Would God have a “plan B”? Might Saul have already been a “plan E”??? How many Epistles should have been written by how many people who resisted??? What if God willed to save a man, and that man resisted and resisted and finally decided that it’s okay to serve God now. Then, another man, in his free will, gets into his car drunk on the same night the first man is on his way to church and BAM!, they crash into one another killing both! Poor God… I guess He really wanted that man saved… and finally got through to him…only to have another man’s free will hijack the whole plan. :(

God’s plan is working in perfect precision. The elect are being saved. And it is to reach the elect that we preach.

Man has free will. However,... so does GOD. :)

Sure God has some things planned ahead. But predestination precludes some from ever having a chance to be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. God does not have to have a complete blueprint with total control to be sovereign.

[crakjak]

You have a perfect right to believe what you choose to believe. I think we we both agree that your belief does not automaticaly negate my belief and that my belief does not automaticaly negate your belief. I think that we could also agree that one of us is right and that the other is wrong though we would disagree as to which is which lol.

I do not think that anything I believe defies logic but such is the path of belief.

Or both of you could be wrong!! :heeheehee

[Timmy]

Two reason for this:

1. Other people respond faster.
2. Their post are generally more thought provoking and deep.

Oh yeah? Well.....


:nahnah


:lol

[crakjak]

Not necessarily. I may agree with the five points to some degree. However, I interpret them differently than most monergists. I believe that irresistible grace can be brutal (if it exists).

However, I do believe in predestination. I also believe in free will. I also believe that a natural tension must exist between the two ideas to some degree given temporal vs. eternal perspective. While trapped in time, to our perception we make choices and decisions. From an eternal perspective that exists transcendent of time itself, all our choices and decisions have already taken place. They were permitted by God. Some events are definitely appointed and unstoppable. For example, the crucifixion. Paul's calling is another great example. I find great peace in believing predestination. It demonstrates that God has not abandoned us to the chaos and confusion of life. But rather, God has ordained what is to be, and appointed what must take place for a greater purpose and plan. I also realize that my witness goes forth to reach the elect... I'm not trying to convince people... Christ's sheep hear His voice, and He calls them by name. I may be one of many voices reaching to an elect soul... that will one day surrender under the power of God's irresistible grace at the appointed time.

I could be wrong. I defend it strongly, but I'm not as dogmatic as I might sound. It makes more sense to me than a God who peeps into the future and tailors His plans and will around ours. And when things go crazy in my life... I realize that it was preordained. It serves a purpose. The purpose normally to aid in conforming me into the image and likeness of Jesus. I trust in that I cannot add a single span or day to my life and that all my ways are in the palm of His hand. He is not betting on me, or hoping that I'll make it. He has chosen me. And He will bring me home... even if He has to break me to do so.

The question often asked of me is regarding our free will. I do believe in free will. However... my question is... Does God have free will? He's all knowing and all powerful. He is in absolute control and is the creator. He has a sovereign will and plan to redeem a remnant according to the election of grace. Does He not have free will to execute His desires???

So, in essence, the predestination I believe in is not relegating man to being mere "preprogrammed bio-bots". But rather, it is in the defense of God's free will and absolute authority.

Election is simply the selection to specific purpose not to exclusive salvation, or others to damnation. Some are elected to more important roles or larger roles of God's purpose, some for smaller less visible roles. But all to HIS purpose. Calvinism makes God out to be quite unfair and even a monster, therefore it is false.

[Luke]

Oh yeah? Well.....


:nahnah


:lol

Lol

[Luke]

Election is simply the selection to specific purpose not to exclusive salvation, or others to damnation. Some are elected to more important roles or larger roles of God's purpose, some for smaller less visible roles. But all to HIS purpose. Calvinism makes God out to be quite unfair and even a monster, therefore it is false.

On this we agree 100%

[Luke]

Predestination doesn’t teach that mankind is a preprogrammed bio-bot. In fact, it affirms God’s sovereignty with regards to His will and purpose. This doesn’t negate man’s free will, it only expresses the idea that in the end… God’s will triumphs in all things to bring about exactly what He desires. In other words… not only does man have free will… an Almighty Sovereign God does too! For example, Saul was on the road to Damascus, enroute to persecute Christians. But God, through Christ, shows up and rocks Saul’s world to bring Saul into compliance with God’s purpose for His life…

Acts 9:1-9 (KJV)
9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Notice something, Saul was on his way to persecute the church. However, God had a different plan. In fact, Paul wrote of God’s will and destiny regarding his calling:

Galatians 1:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

On the road to Damascus the free and human will of Saul collided with the sovereign and all-powerful will of God. God knocked Saul off his horse and appeared to him in the glorified radiance of Jesus Christ. Jesus says something that most don’t really pay attention to. Jesus said, “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Few know what this truly means. You see, oxen were used to work the soil. The prick or goad was a necessary devise. The prick was usually a wooden shaft with a pointed spike (prick) at one end. The man working the ox would position the goad in such a way as to exert influence and control over the ox. You see, if the ox refused the command indicated by the farmer, the goad would be used to jab or prick the ox. Sometimes the ox would refuse this incentive by kicking out at the prick. As result, the prick would be driven deeper into the flesh of the rebellious animal. The more the animal rebelled, the more the animal suffered. Hence, the statement to Saul: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul was rebelling against God, God had no doubt been drawing Saul and Saul was using his “free will” to resist. As a result, Saul got knocked off his horse, was personally confronted by the Lord Himself, and was then blinded! God knows exactly how to bring a rebellious elect child to the end of himself, even if it takes the most drastic of measures! Saul’s “free will” was broken as it collided with God’s sovereign and predestined plan for him. God knew it would take this. And God timed it just right. Everything according to divine plan. Notice… Saul had free will… but so did our Sovereign and All-Powerful GOD. ;)




God will NEVER subordinate His sovereignty to man’s choices. Even when God permits a man's choices to affect creation, it is in accordance to God's sovereign divine plan. God subordinating His sovereignty and providence to the will of man would lead to absolute chaos. Is God the author of confusion? Nope. Imagine, in your view… Saul could have still resisted God. Would God have a “plan B”? Might Saul have already been a “plan E”??? How many Epistles should have been written by how many people who resisted??? What if God willed to save a man, and that man resisted and resisted and finally decided that it’s okay to serve God now. Then, another man, in his free will, gets into his car drunk on the same night the first man is on his way to church and BAM!, they crash into one another killing both! Poor God… I guess He really wanted that man saved… and finally got through to him…only to have another man’s free will hijack the whole plan. :(

God’s plan is working in perfect precision. The elect are being saved. And it is to reach the elect that we preach.

Man has free will. However,... so does GOD. :)

So basicly man has free will as long as he chooses what God has already choosen?

[shazeep]

You're very angry with God, aren't you?:nod

[Aquila]

So basicly man has free will as long as he chooses what God has already choosen?

I think we have propagated a myth. I always hear men talk about various topics and then they insert the phrase, “…and because God is a gentleman…”. Really? He deep fried Sodom and Gomorrah. He drowned the entire Egyptian army. He commanded Israel to eradicate the Canaanites. He struck Uzzah dead for touching the ark. He sent plagues that decimated men, women, children, cattle, etc. He interrupted a false prophet by sending an angel bearing the sword to terrify the wayward prophet’s donkey. He took entire nations and dragged them upon the nation of Israel with “hooks in their jaws”. He flooded an entire planet of demonized hedonists. While flailing strips of leather, he flipped tables and drove money changers out of the temple. He struck Ananias and Sepphirah dead for lying. He knocked Saul off his horse and blinded him to force him to surrender and get with the destiny God had preplanned for him from before creation. Through an Apostle he cursed a sorcerer to blindness. And… He’s coming back in Christ Jesus with the Holy Angels in flaming fire of vengeance against His enemies. He doesn’t sound much like a “gentle” anything to me. He sounds like a GOD who knows who He is and means business. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God who DEMANDS to be recognized as sovereign LORD, SAVIOR, and CREATOR. You’ll not find a single human will that successfully withstood His sovereign will and power in the entire Bible.

Bro… you better choose what He has chosen to be… or else. The elect discover this quickly and surrender to it.

[Aquila]

Sure God has some things planned ahead. But predestination precludes some from ever having a chance to be saved.

On the surface, this sounds logical. However, if one really evaluates the Armenian position, they run into the very same problem. You see, let’s assume that God desires that all be saved, and that all have an equal ability to be saved… not all have equal opportunity. For, countless billions have still never heard the Gospel. Could one charge God as being “unfair” in that He created one in the womb of a woman who lives in the heart of some foreign country wherein the pure Gospel of Jesus hasn’t been preached??? In striving to make God seem “fair”… one still must grapple with the reality that God hasn’t been fair in creating so many so far from an opportunity to be saved.

Also, if some things are predestined (planned ahead), how can they happen if everyone is chaotically doing as they wish? And if one has absolute free will… what if they make a choice other than the choice that will facilitate God’s plan? What if Judas decided not to betray Jesus? What if Paul decided not to heed the Lord when He appeared on the road to Damascus? Notice… God impresses His will on the human soul to achieve His sovereign will… even if it means giving one over to Satan himself… or knocking someone off a horse and blinding them to get them to bend the knee and stop kicking against the pricks (surrender).

God is not willing that any should perish.

Agreed, but He knows the reality that should He not act to save an elect remnant in accordance to His grace, all would be lost. And so, God has determined from eternity to save that elect body.

God does not have to have a complete blueprint with total control to be sovereign.

Perhaps not your God. Ah… but mine is in control of everything. He holds the reigns that govern the hearts of kings and nations. The sun shines, because He wills it to do so. The atoms form molecules and hold their form because He wills them to. Even the blade of grass bends with the wind because He has willed it to be so by permission or determination. Sovereign. Holy. GOD.

[Timmy]

I think we have propagated a myth.I agree. :heeheehee I always hear men talk about various topics and then they insert the phrase, “…and because God is a gentleman…”. Really? He deep fried Sodom and Gomorrah. He drowned the entire Egyptian army. He commanded Israel to eradicate the Canaanites. He struck Uriah dead for touching the ark.That was Uzzah. Uriah was a "Heep". ;) He sent plagues that decimated men, women, children, cattle, etc. He interrupted a false prophet by sending an angel bearing the sword to terrify the wayward prophet’s donkey. He took entire nations and dragged them upon the nation of Israel with “hooks in their jaws”. He flooded an entire planet of demonized hedonists. While flailing strips of leather, he flipped tables and drove money changers out of the temple. He struck Ananias and Sepphirah dead for lying. He knocked Saul off his horse and blinded him to force him to surrender and get with the destiny God had preplanned for him from before creation. Through Paul he cursed a sorcerer to blindness. And… He’s coming back in Christ Jesus with the Holy Angels in flaming fire of vengeance against His enemies. He doesn’t sound much like a “gentle” anything to me. He sounds like a GOD who knows who He is and means business. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God who DEMANDS to be recognized as sovereign LORD, SAVIOR, and CREATOR. You’ll not find a single human will that successfully withstood His sovereign will and power in the entire Bible.

Bro… you better choose what He has chosen to be… or else. The elect discover this quickly and surrender to it.

[Aquila]

I agree. :heeheehee That was Uzzah. Uriah was a "Heep". ;)

Good eye. Thanks! lol

[Timmy]

Good eye. Thanks! lol

:D

[Timmy]

:D

By the way, I ever tell you guys about Benny Hinn's brother's take on Uzzah? Think so. But here it is again. ;)

Benny was interviewing his brother (forget his name, sorry), and the brother apparently has a "teaching" on Uzzah. You see, God didn't kill Uzzah. Nope. What killed Uzzah? It was "the glory". Yep. The glory killed Uzzah. Not God.

Benny was fascinated.

"And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God." 2 Samuel 6:7

I guess this is one of those scriptures that don't mean what they say. :heeheehee

[Aquila]

By the way, I ever tell you guys about Benny Hinn's brother's take on Uzzah? Think so. But here it is again. ;)

Benny was interviewing his brother (forget his name, sorry), and the brother apparently has a "teaching" on Uzzah. You see, God didn't kill Uzzah. Nope. What killed Uzzah? It was "the glory". Yep. The glory killed Uzzah. Not God.

Benny was fascinated.

"And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God." 2 Samuel 6:7

I guess this is one of those scriptures that don't mean what they say. :heeheehee

LOL!

I guess so! :thumbsup

[Luke]

I think we have propagated a myth. I always hear men talk about various topics and then they insert the phrase, “…and because God is a gentleman…”. Really? He deep fried Sodom and Gomorrah. He drowned the entire Egyptian army. He commanded Israel to eradicate the Canaanites. He struck Uzzah dead for touching the ark. He sent plagues that decimated men, women, children, cattle, etc. He interrupted a false prophet by sending an angel bearing the sword to terrify the wayward prophet’s donkey. He took entire nations and dragged them upon the nation of Israel with “hooks in their jaws”. He flooded an entire planet of demonized hedonists. While flailing strips of leather, he flipped tables and drove money changers out of the temple. He struck Ananias and Sepphirah dead for lying. He knocked Saul off his horse and blinded him to force him to surrender and get with the destiny God had preplanned for him from before creation. Through Paul he cursed a sorcerer to blindness. And… He’s coming back in Christ Jesus with the Holy Angels in flaming fire of vengeance against His enemies. He doesn’t sound much like a “gentle” anything to me. He sounds like a GOD who knows who He is and means business. It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God who DEMANDS to be recognized as sovereign LORD, SAVIOR, and CREATOR. You’ll not find a single human will that successfully withstood His sovereign will and power in the entire Bible.

Bro… you better choose what He has chosen to be… or else. The elect discover this quickly and surrender to it.

You do understand that your last statement makes no sense in light of predestination? How can one do anything but surrender to the will of God? Predestination makes mankind like the air in a ballon. The air does not surrender to the ballon it simply goes in because there is nowhere else to go!

According to you all of those who suffered did not suffer because of what they chose rather they had no choice in the matter and therefore simply suffered because they were created to suffer!

As to not finding any example of people successfully going against the will of God in the bible i disagree. What about:

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:



Luke 13: 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Luke]

By the way, I ever tell you guys about Benny Hinn's brother's take on Uzzah? Think so. But here it is again. ;)

Benny was interviewing his brother (forget his name, sorry), and the brother apparently has a "teaching" on Uzzah. You see, God didn't kill Uzzah. Nope. What killed Uzzah? It was "the glory". Yep. The glory killed Uzzah. Not God.

Benny was fascinated.

"And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God." 2 Samuel 6:7

I guess this is one of those scriptures that don't mean what they say. :heeheehee

lol :heeheehee

[Carl]

Perhaps not your God.

Aquila, that is uncalled for. I've learned a lot on this forum during the years I've read your posts. We have the same God. You don't need to belittle me.
I've just recently begun to explore why I believe what I believe and have finally felt the liberty to question some things. I'm not as well read as others neither do I use big words like dichotomy or eschatology. I did not even get creative when choosing a "name" for this forum. I used one of my son's middle names. My real name is Bill.

[Timmy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

[Aquila]

Aquila, that is uncalled for. I've learned a lot on this forum during the years I've read your posts. We have the same God. You don't need to belittle me.
I've just recently begun to explore why I believe what I believe and have finally felt the liberty to question some things. I'm not as well read as others neither do I use big words like dichotomy or eschatology. I did not even get creative when choosing a "name" for this forum. I used one of my son's middle names. My real name is Bill.

Hey Bill, I'm Chris. I have no hard feelings and I didn't mean to offend. I was just responding to a statement. Let's read it again SLOWLY and really soak in what it's saying...

God does not have to have a complete blueprint with total control to be sovereign.

Ummm... no offense intended here... but... Hello??? LOL!

Does the book of Revelation only present a future as seen by God being a "divine fortune teller"? Or is the Revelation a revelation of what God has preordained and appointed to be so?

[Aquila]

According to you all of those who suffered did not suffer because of what they chose rather they had no choice in the matter and therefore simply suffered because they were created to suffer!

Not necessarily. You see, man is fallen and incapable of choosing anything but sin. Even the unregenerate person’s “religion” is self-serving and is therefore sin. Those who suffer judgment and are lost will be lost on account of their sinfulness. It’s their state. Their lot. And all men would share that lot without exception had God not chosen for Himself and elect remnant according to grace. They were not created to suffer any more than a Hindu child born in the heart of India who never heard the Gospel. It’s their condition before God.

Now, God does often call to the unregenerate to repent and change their ways, especially as a nation in the OT. And many times they suffered judgments that brought them to repentance. However, this was a national repentance, it doesn’t mean that every last Israelite was “saved” in the sense of receiving eternal salvation. On an individual level the rain falls on the just and the unjust. God often calls out in general to every soul to repent and believe. The elect receive not only an “outer call” to repent and believe… but also an “inner call”, a drawing of the Spirit. The unregenerate do not have the inner calling. In fact, this only testifies against them that in their fallen state they are entirely undeserving of salvation without the divine intervention seen in the elect.

At the end of the day… the lost are lost on account of their sin. It is the elect who should be eternally grateful for being called out of darkness into Christ’s marvelous light.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

As to not finding any example of people successfully going against the will of God in the bible i disagree. What about:

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:



Luke 13: 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

You will find that these admonitions stand to testify against the absolute fallen nature an inability to obey in the unregenerate. Therefore it is proven that God has judged justly when they indeed have been found entirely incapable of surrendering themselves to God’s authority. Also, some are viewed in context of judgments that brought an entire nation to repentance in the end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God indeed is longsuffering “to us-ward” (the elect), not willing that any should perish, but that all (of the elect) should come to repentance.

Now, some will read this the way you are reading this. While it expresses that God’s innate desire might be to save all men… both the more Reformed position and the Armenian position admit… not all will be saved. So, if God indeed wills that every last soul be saved, it is a general will. Not a declarative/operative will (unless one is universalist). So at the end of the day the Reformed believer will believe that although God wills that all men be saved in general, He has chosen only to save His elect. The Armenian must admit that although God wills that all men be saved in general, He has proven incapable of truly reaching all men as He so desires.

[Aquila]

After viewing the poll results, I've come to suspect that many don't know exactly what God being "fair" might imply. I praise God that He isn't "fair". I trust Him in that I knew that while He isn't "fair"... He is "just".

[Aquila]

One theological perspective is that the divine perspective, being eternal and sovereign in all glory creates what can only logically appear to be a contradiction to the limited human temporal perspective. Thus a significant degree of mystery must be accepted. While all things are indeed predestined... there is free will. While this may appear to be contradictory, from an eternal perspective it truly isn't. Thus both predestination and free will are truths to be embraced. How it all works... is subject to mere limited human theories.

All I know is that Saul's free will would have brought him to Damascus to persecute the church. God imposed His sovereign and almighty will on Saul, through an irresistible grace, in such a way as to bring Saul to the end of self, fully surrendered to the sovereign will of God. God wasn't a gentleman in this. Nor was God hoping or fretting over what Saul would choose. He was rather forceful, likening Saul unto an oxen who was kicking against the goads (a no win situation for the oxen). In this, one cannot disagree. God knows how to bring His elect to their knees in absolute surrender to accomplish His sovereign plan of redemption. God is not impotent, sometimes frowning on His failure to reach anyone. God always gets His man.

Some would have a God who would have merely hoped to save Saul and use him to spread and preach the Gospel. Some would have us believe that had Saul utterly refused, God would have had to choose a "plan B". Of course this brings up the question... was Saul a "plan B"? Could God have intended someone else to reach the Gentiles and they refuse? Might there have been Epistles that should have been written but, due to stubborn human will and refusal, they were not??? Soon... their entire framework degenerates into a chaos of absolute confusion with a very frustrated God in the middle holding His hands in the air just wishing and hoping for our best... leaving us entirely to our own devices, His sovereignty surrendered to our now almighty free will.

I have issues with that perspective.

[Aquila]

As men demand that man must have absolute free will... I proclaim an additional truth... God (to be sovereign, holy, just, creator, author, finisher, Alpha, Omega) must have free will also. That means... He alone is GOD, and none shall successfully thwart Him with regards to His predestined plan regarding mankind and His elect. Even Satan is subject to His will and power... only acting as God permits him to in accordance to God's preordained plans.

[Aquila]

Let's assume that a world leader determined to bring the world into a nuclear holocaust tomorrow in effort to destroy all life on earth within two hours. Would God allow that man's will to stand and thwart His entire redemptive plan as it concludes in the Revelation??? Would not God dispatch Holy Angels to war against the dark forces at work behind the man's decision? And would not God Himself bring the man to naught? Or... is man's free will so free that he might in fact sideline everything decreed in the book of Revelation? If man's will is so free, and God's sovereignty so surrendered (to make God a "gentleman"), how do we know that we've not already thwarted the divine plan and are living in a divergent man made reality this very hour? Is God "struggling" to fulfill what He has decreed for the conclusion of this dispensation???

Clearly the answer is obvious. God's will is sovereign and what He has declared to be will be. Regardless of the petty accusations and names we (His creations) might throw at Him for subverting our will to His own. He is the Creator. He alone is God. His elect see this, embrace this, and give Him all praise and glory in this, knowing that He is indeed just and holy. Though His sovereign choices may offend our earthly notions of "fairness"... He alone has the sovereign power and authority to do as He wishes with His creation for whatever purposes He has determined.

[Luke]

Let's assume that a world leader determined to bring the world into a nuclear holocaust tomorrow in effort to destroy all life on earth within two hours. Would God allow that man's will to stand and thwart His entire redemptive plan as it concludes in the Revelation??? Would not God dispatch Holy Angels to war against the dark forces at work behind the man's decision? And would not God Himself bring the man to naught? Or... is man's free will so free that he might in fact sideline everything decreed in the book of Revelation? If man's will is so free, and God's sovereignty so surrendered (to make God a "gentleman"), how do we know that we've not already thwarted the divine plan and are living in a divergent man made reality this very hour? Is God "struggling" to fulfill what He has decreed for the conclusion of this dispensation???

Clearly the answer is obvious. God's will is sovereign and what He has declared to be will be. Regardless of the petty accusations and names we (His creations) might throw at Him for subverting our will to His own. He is the Creator. He alone is God. His elect see this, embrace this, and give Him all praise and glory in this, knowing that He is indeed just and holy. Though His sovereign choices may offend our earthly notions of "fairness"... He alone has the sovereign power and authority to do as He wishes with His creation for whatever purposes He has determined.

What you are taking about is divine intervention not predestination. The man would have the ability to try do anything he wanted but God can intervene and make that not possible. The difference here is that in predestination man has no choice but to do what God wills.

[BrotherEastman]

I couldn't fathom an unfair God.

[Luke]

Aquila wouldn't irresistible grace have to be true or aleast be true by default if predestination is true?

[Aquila]

What you are taking about is divine intervention not predestination.

Predestined, divine intervention. Without election, none would be saved.

The man would have the ability to try do anything he wanted but God can intervene and make that not possible. The difference here is that in predestination man has no choice but to do what God wills.

There is more than one view of Predestination. For example, the doctrine of irresistible grace often accompanies predestination. Some say it works silently and mechanically. Others say that it can be "resisted"... However, resistance never prevails. Therefore, in this light it is irresistible (as with Saul of Tarsus).

[Aquila]

I couldn't fathom an unfair God.

Fair would be receiving what we deserve. I pray to high Heaven that God isn't "fair". Because NONE of us deserve eternal life. However, God is "just". He is just in that He knows we are but flesh and has made a way for His children to be saved through grace.

[Aquila]

Aquila wouldn't irresistible grace have to be true or aleast be true by default if predestination is true?

To some degree, yes. However, there are various views on "irresistible grace". Some say it works mechanically and silently to bring the elect to salvation. Others believe that it is active involvement by God, overcoming the stubborn will of the elect at times. Therefore, it's not that irresistible grace can't be resisted... it's that said resistance never wins in the end. It's very personal in this view. The elect who experiences this form of "irresistible grace" is essentially... wrestling with God. And, eventually, they'll surrender to His love and grace.