The Free Gift of Salvation

[Robert Sanders]

The salvation of God is free to those who
will do what is required to receive it.

[Michael The Disciple]

True if one would repent and be baptized in Jesus name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Timmy]

True if one would repent and be baptized in Jesus name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And keep the faith, fight the good fight, endure to the end. And hate your family. (Figuratively speaking, of course. :winkgrin)

[Timmy]

Don't forget to count the cost. You know, for "free" salvation.

[Timmy]

(BTW, Robert, did you know there is an "ignore" feature here? Just in case. :))

[Jermyn Davidson]

True if one would repent and be baptized in Jesus name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So much for the free gift...

[Robert Sanders]

So much for the free gift...
Are you worth saving?

[Aquila]

The salvation of God is free to those who
will do what is required to receive it.

In other words... it is "free"... to those who earn it?

I believe,

Romans 8:30
English Standard Version (ESV)
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It's an unbroken chain. God predestined His elect children in accordance to His love, will, and desire. And it is the elect whom He has called (John 6:44), and justified in Christ Jesus (Romans 5:1), and it is we who are glorified in Christ (Ephesians 1:4).

When we begin to realize that God has a sovereign plan for mankind and that God intervened to save an elect body unto Himself and that God pursues, calls, chastens, and wrestles with that elect body to bring them to salvation... we'll truly understand what it means to be saved by grace alone. God isn't dependent upon us to pardon ourselves. No man can pardon himself. It takes the sovereign will of the one with authority to pardon. And he pardons whom He will.

Salvation is the work of God in us, His chosen. It isn't something we can earn by thought, word, or deed. We can even resist for a time... yet God's grace will overpower us and bring us to the end of our rebellion. Don't believe me? Ask Saul of Tarsus. He learned the hard way that "kicking against the pricks" (resisting God's saving power) only led to him being knocked off his horse and blinded by God.

[Aquila]

God's grace convicts the elect sinner... and the sinner repents.

The church baptizes the convert in the name of Jesus.

God Himself fills them with the Spirit.

Technically... the sinner need only to repent under the efficacious calling of grace when salvation presented with a body who preaches a "biblical" Gospel.

[CJManzell]

The salvation of God is free to those who
will do what is required to receive it.
To receive the salvation of God,
it will cost you your life.

[Disciple4life]

If it cost you something it really isn't free? :heeheehee

[J4Truth]

If it cost you something it really isn't free? :heeheehee

Actually not necessarily true. What makes something free seems to be the initial cost is paid and you receive it not at the stated cost. But to receive something whether free or not nearly always cost you something whether it be time, energy, or effort.

Think of a soup kitchen offering free food. Is the food no longer free because someone had to actually walk to the place? Or is it no longer free because someone had to wait in line? Time, effort, energy are all things we use to sometimes measure the cost of something. But if someone gives us something that initially cost money to acquire it we will still consider it a free gift even if it cost time, energy, or effort to receive it.

So cost and free are subjective terms. And it depends on what is the subject matter when determining if something is free or if there's a cost.

[Aquila]

Actually not necessarily true. What makes something free seems to be the initial cost is paid and you receive it not at the stated cost. But to receive something whether free or not nearly always cost you something whether it be time, energy, or effort.

Think of a soup kitchen offering free food. Is the food no longer free because someone had to actually walk to the place? Or is it no longer free because someone had to wait in line? Time, effort, energy are all things we use to sometimes measure the cost of something. But if someone gives us something that initially cost money to acquire it we will still consider it a free gift even if it cost time, energy, or effort to receive it.

So cost and free are subjective terms. And it depends on what is the subject matter when determining if something is free or if there's a cost.

Discount salvation?

I don't buy that. I believe that salvation is paid in full. It truly is... "finished".

The Bible says...

Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No one can boast of anything. It's not of ourselves. It's not predicated on works of righteousness of any kind. If it were, one could boast of their works as being relevant to their salvation. We are God's own workmanship, His masterpieces. Created in Jesus Christ unto good works, good works which God preordained that we should show because we are saved... not to be saved.

Jesus says this...

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Before any man or woman is saved, the Father must first draw them. If one isn't drawn by the Father... they can't be saved... even if they go through all the intellectual gymnastics of theological belief. They can't be saved even if they make a mental ascent to all that the Bible teaches. They can't be saved even if they live saintly lives. Salvation begins in the heart and mind of God, predicated upon His sovereign and divine will concerning His elect. His sheep know His voice... and He calls them by name. The Father draws the soul to Christ through an efficacious call of the Spirit. It never returns void. Oh, a man or woman can resist for a season, but God always triumphs over the will and mind of man. He is... God... and there is no other. Salvation is about Him demonstrating His mercy and grace as He so chooses, upon the absolutely depraved, unworthy, and spiritually dead. We didn't earn this drawing of the Father. We love Him because... He first loved us. While we were yet sinners, DEAD in trespasses and sin,... Christ died for the ungodly. When we begin to understand that salvation begins with the very drawing of God (who draws only those whom He has chosen before the foundations of the world) we realize that our salvation is God's work... not our own. It is indeed... a free gift unto God's elect children by grace.

[Aquila]

I did back up and consider the possibility of "cost"... and this is what I feel in the Spirit...

If their is any "cost" involved... it is the surrender of the will and ego to God's absolute sovereignty. To surrender all entitlement based on one's own works. To receive such unsearchable grace and riches... while finding one's self absolutely unworthy. The cost isn't connected to earning the salvation of God. It is with receiving the salvation of God. One must surrender their own sense of control and personal sovereignty/independence... "self". Now... throw your hands up in the air and count the cost of grace... a cost paid in full on Mt. Calvary. Stop trying to earn it or pay for it. Accept it. Surrender. Be humbled. Be abased. Accept the will of God concerning your calling and election. Stop struggling, trying to earn that which you couldn't earn in 10 billion years, could you even live that long. Embrace salvation by faith... then turn and live a life filled with the very same unconditional love shown unto you.

[Aquila]

So technically, salvation costs more than one's "life". It costs one's entire sense of "self".

[CJManzell]

So technically, salvation costs more than one's "life". It costs one's entire sense of "self".

It cost you everything.

[Aquila]

It cost you everything.

Amen. Especially the notion that we have anything to offer to earn such grace. Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. We'd no sooner be able to build a wooden ladder to Heaven. It's all His work, from start to finish:

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[Pressing-On]

So technically, salvation costs more than one's "life". It costs one's entire sense of "self".

There are no promises in the Bible without condition. You can clearly see that in Deut 28:1-2 - "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. "

Also, the Gospel comes with condition - "(5)Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8)In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9

With the obedience of the Disciples, they have been given gifts - "(7) As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ (8) Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give." Matthew 10:5-8

Free (freely given) only alludes to our obedience and the fact that we couldn't have done any of these things on our own. We need God's help which we receive through our obedience to Him.

[Michael The Disciple]

Amen. Especially the notion that we have anything to offer to earn such grace. Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. We'd no sooner be able to build a wooden ladder to Heaven. It's all His work, from start to finish:

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

While in full agreement concerning election and the sovereignty of God what do you think about the verse before the one quoted?

8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 8:30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. Rom 8:28-30

It is his purpose or "work" to conform men to the image of Christ. Suppose "believers" DO NOT wind up being LIKE JESUS? Suppose they continue in sin? They wind up dying with sin in their life?

Since as you say the work is all HIS, who is to blame?

[Aquila]

There are no promises in the Bible without condition. You can clearly see that in Deut 28:1-2 - "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. "

Also, the Gospel comes with condition - "(5)Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8)In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9

With the obedience of the Disciples, they have been given gifts - "(7) As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ (8) Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give." Matthew 10:5-8

Free (freely given) only alludes to our obedience and the fact that we couldn't have done any of these things on our own. We need God's help which we receive through our obedience to Him.

You're creating a false dichotomy.

[Pressing-On]

You're creating a false dichotomy.

Really? Supporting scripture is false dichotomy? Are you wishing that obedience didn't play a part? Is it because sometimes that is hard?

[Aquila]

While in full agreement concerning election and the sovereignty of God what do you think about the verse before the one quoted?

8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 8:30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. Rom 8:28-30

It is his purpose or "work" to conform men to the image of Christ. Suppose "believers" DO NOT wind up being LIKE JESUS? Suppose they continue in sin? They wind up dying with sin in their life?

Interesting. We agree on election and sovereignty. Michael... this is important. We actually agree on something. Praise God my brother! lol We may disagree on predestination. But there is room for disagreement on this doctrine. Here is my understanding...

Jesus said,

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It's the Father's will that Jesus lose none of those drawn and delivered to Jesus. Will Jesus accomplish the Father's will??? Of course He will. God never fails. Christ never fails. God will not be upset way up in Heaven saying,

"Gosh, I had elected and called that guy and I just couldn't get him to turn around... *sniff, sniff*... I guess the devil got that one."

No. God knows exactly how to bring the elect to their knees, to bring them to the end of themselves, to bring them to surrender... to bring them home. Saul was determined to go and persecute Christians. Why didn't God honor Saul's free will??? God had a plan for him, that's why. God knew the exact right time to knock Saul off that horse, confront him with his stubbornness, and blind him... directing him to find Ananias. God isn't challenged to save a man. He's GOD.

Therefore, if God has predetermined His will for you... He will not be left empty handed, thwarted by His creation. He will bring His elect children to the place wherein they are secure in Christ. If it appears that God allows them to fall away... it was allows that a truth might be manifest. They were never of the elect... even if they tasted of the heavenly gifts.

Since as you say the work is all HIS, who is to blame?

The other side of that question could be, who can take the credit?

Will any flesh (or human being) glory in His presence? Will He share His glory with another? Nope. God isn't our partner in salvation. God is our GOD. He alone is our Salvation.

God is never "to blame". God is always just. Those who fall away... they fell away that it might be manifest that they were never a part of the elect. Plain and simple.

We often forget... whatsoever God desires, is what is right. And always will be. We cannot judge God and blame Him for anything. Whatsoever God determines and appoints will happen... and it will be right. God has all authority, sovereignty, and power. In all things... what God chooses is good. Even if we can't see it with our finite minds. God is the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last. The author and the finisher of our faith. This drama isn't about us. It's not about you. It's not about me. It's about Him and His sovereign glory. It's about HIM working out the salvation He has determined in us to His own glory.

[Aquila]

Really? Supporting scripture is false dichotomy? Are you wishing that obedience didn't play a part? Is it because sometimes that is hard?

Subjective presupposition.

[Michael The Disciple]

God is never "to blame". God is always just. Those who fall away... they fell away that it might be manifest that they were never a part of the elect. Plain and simple.

So then could one say that every one that is ELECT will be LIKE JESUS? That all the elect will overcome sin and live a life of holiness?

[Ferd]

Free....as it relates to salvation, I think there is something lost in translation.

None of us have the wherewithall to purchase from God, Eternal Life in his presence.
Thus when he gives us salvation, it is indeed a "Free Gift" Free in that we cannot purchase it because we have not the abiity to do so.

But that does not mean the gift is without parameters. If that were so, Paul would not have said of grace "what then? shall we sin? God forbid!"

We would not have any of the epistles written to us, the elect of God.

Nor would we have the words of Jesus in Luke 14
27"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,…


Jesus is not suggesting that there is a price we must pay to gain salvation, however clearly He indicates there is a price we must weigh to walk the path he lays before us.

Free? Certainly.
Without condition? certainly not.

[Ferd]

Subjective presupposition.

elbow macaronii!

i can use big words too!

:heeheehee

[Aquila]

elbow macaronii!

i can use big words too!

:heeheehee

lol

[Aquila]

So then could one say that every one that is ELECT will be LIKE JESUS? That all the elect will overcome sin and live a life of holiness?

Ultimately, yes. That's the work of God. And this process is our sanctification... and it ends upon our glorification. It's a life long process. Yet, it should be said that healthy spiritual growth will see increasing Christlikeness.

However, we do well to caution. We're not talking about being conformed into the image of the humanity of Jesus, that Jewish man who lived 2,000 years ago. Nope. We're talking about the glorified Christ Jesus who is God. We too shall partake in the divine nature. And we shall ultimately be like Him. Therefore, to aspire to legalistic codifications or Judiazation to attain "Christlikeness" fails the test. To simply be one with Christ, in spirit, He in the Father, the Father in Him, and He in us... union. Oneness. The divine essence of divine love, authority, and power flowing through us. That's the holiness we aspire to. Loving God with all our being... and demonstrating that love by loving others as ourselves... that is the entire law fulfilled. For God is love. And when we love we are being most like Him. Not when we dress a certain way or do certain things. Love. When we allow unconditional divine love to flow through us... He is flowing through us and living through us. There is no higher state of holiness.

[Aquila]

For example... one might say, "I'm like Jesus. Because I keep these commandments....", and he lists them as he understands them presently or has been taught them by another human authority. (subjective)

Another says, "I'm like Jesus. Because I am one with Him. I keep no commandment but love. He lives through me. He is the True Vine... I am but a branch. Just as the branch and the vine are single organism... I and the Lord are one spirit. My Lord Jesus and the Father are one. I and the Lord Jesus are one. I am crucified with Christ, and yet I live. Not I... but Christ who lives within me."

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Partaking of the divine nature. Holiness in being... not in codified lists of deeds.

2 Peter 1:4

2 Peter 1:4
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature

Oneness...

John 14:20
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Dare one say it? ... Oneness with God, through Christ, by the Spirit.
(An objective reality of Scripture to be reckoned by faith as simply being so.)

[Michael The Disciple]

Free....as it relates to salvation, I think there is something lost in translation.

None of us have the wherewithall to purchase from God, Eternal Life in his presence.
Thus when he gives us salvation, it is indeed a "Free Gift" Free in that we cannot purchase it because we have not the abiity to do so.

But that does not mean the gift is without parameters. If that were so, Paul would not have said of grace "what then? shall we sin? God forbid!"

We would not have any of the epistles written to us, the elect of God.

Nor would we have the words of Jesus in Luke 14
27"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,…


Jesus is not suggesting that there is a price we must pay to gain salvation, however clearly He indicates there is a price we must weigh to walk the path he lays before us.

Free? Certainly.
Without condition? certainly not.

If people would realize there are at least 2 phases to salvation. The initial forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit is the free gift. Then comes that narrow path where we must overcome and endure. All by the Spirit of God of course.

[Aquila]

If people would realize there are at least 2 phases to salvation. The initial forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit is the free gift. Then comes that narrow path where we must overcome and endure. All by the Spirit of God of course.

... of course. ;)

[Timmy]

When you guys get it figured out, let me know. :heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

However, we do well to caution. We're not talking about being conformed into the image of the humanity of Jesus, that Jewish man who lived 2,000 years ago. Nope. We're talking about the glorified Christ Jesus who is God

I guess someone forgot to tell the apostles we are not called to be the same as Jesus.

In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

Only those who are like Jesus NOW have any assurance of FINAL salvation.

Anyone who claims to be IN HIM is supposed to be walking AS HE WALKED.

But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 2:6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked. 1 John 2:5-6

So it is at PRESENT we are to be like JESUS.

[Ferd]

If people would realize there are at least 2 phases to salvation. The initial forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit is the free gift. Then comes that narrow path where we must overcome and endure. All by the Spirit of God of course.

I would say that salvation from the day you turn around, to the day you enter into heaven, is the free gift.

at the same time, that gift has conditions. You cannot recieve forgiveness of your sins, if you are not sorry for, nor willing to cease the behavior, no matter how much you want the gift of salvation.

Every day is a choice on my part to walk toward God. When I fall, I choose to either get up or wallow in the mud I have fallen into.

[Pressing-On]

I would say that salvation from the day you turn around, to the day you enter into heaven, is the free gift.

at the same time, that gift has conditions. You cannot recieve forgiveness of your sins, if you are not sorry for, nor willing to cease the behavior, no matter how much you want the gift of salvation.

Every day is a choice on my part to walk toward God. When I fall, I choose to either get up or wallow in the mud I have fallen into.

Good post, Ferdinand! :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

Thought this letter from Pastor Saeed (Serving an 8-year sentence for his Christian faith in Iran) would be appropriate for this thread.



Crucifying the resurrected “self” with Christ and resurrects our death faith with Christ.

Happy Resurrection Day.

On the Eve of Good Friday and Easter I was praying from my hospital room for my fellow Christians in the world. What the Holy Spirit revealed to me in prayer was that there are many dead faiths in the midst of Christians today. That Christians all over the world are not able to fully reach their spiritual potential that has been given to them as a gift by God so that in reaching that potential, the curtain can be removed and the Glory of God would be revealed.

Some times we want to experience the Glory and resurrection with Jesus without experiencing death with Him. We do not realize that unless we pass through the path of death with Christ, we are not able to experience resurrection with Christ.

We want to have a good and successful marriage, career, education and family life (which is also God’s desire and plan for our life). But we forget that in order to experience the Resurrection and Glory of Christ we first have to experience death with Christ and to die to ourselves and selfish desires.

Jesus said to His Disciples: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

This means that we should not do things that we like to do (that God does not want us to do) and to do things that we do not like to do (but God wants us to do) so that He may be glorified.

So in addition to spending our days and night in doing the works of faith as described above, we should also transform our death faiths into living and active faiths through the resurrection of Christ which is an active and constructive love that is effective.

In conclusion, let us resurrect our Dead faiths to living faiths by first dying to our selfish “resurrected” self and experiencing the cross of Jesus. Then we are able to experience the Glorious resurrection with Christ.

A Glorious life with Christ starts only after a painful death (to self) with Christ.

We will start with Christ.

Pastor Saeed Abedini
Prisoner in the Darkness in Iran, but free for the Kingdom and Light

http://aclj.org/iran/american-pastor-saeed-writes-easter-message-as-a-prisoner-in-the-darkness-of-iran

[Michael The Disciple]

Thought this letter from Pastor Saeed (Serving an 8-year sentence for his Christian faith in Iran) would be appropriate for this thread.



Crucifying the resurrected “self” with Christ and resurrects our death faith with Christ.

Happy Resurrection Day.

On the Eve of Good Friday and Easter I was praying from my hospital room for my fellow Christians in the world. What the Holy Spirit revealed to me in prayer was that there are many dead faiths in the midst of Christians today. That Christians all over the world are not able to fully reach their spiritual potential that has been given to them as a gift by God so that in reaching that potential, the curtain can be removed and the Glory of God would be revealed.

Some times we want to experience the Glory and resurrection with Jesus without experiencing death with Him. We do not realize that unless we pass through the path of death with Christ, we are not able to experience resurrection with Christ.

We want to have a good and successful marriage, career, education and family life (which is also God’s desire and plan for our life). But we forget that in order to experience the Resurrection and Glory of Christ we first have to experience death with Christ and to die to ourselves and selfish desires.

Jesus said to His Disciples: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

This means that we should not do things that we like to do (that God does not want us to do) and to do things that we do not like to do (but God wants us to do) so that He may be glorified.

So in addition to spending our days and night in doing the works of faith as described above, we should also transform our death faiths into living and active faiths through the resurrection of Christ which is an active and constructive love that is effective.

In conclusion, let us resurrect our Dead faiths to living faiths by first dying to our selfish “resurrected” self and experiencing the cross of Jesus. Then we are able to experience the Glorious resurrection with Christ.

A Glorious life with Christ starts only after a painful death (to self) with Christ.

We will start with Christ.

Pastor Saeed Abedini
Prisoner in the Darkness in Iran, but free for the Kingdom and Light

http://aclj.org/iran/american-pastor-saeed-writes-easter-message-as-a-prisoner-in-the-darkness-of-iran

Spoken from wisdom and experience.

[CJManzell]

True if one would repent and be baptized in Jesus name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
What did you give God in return for His salvation?

[n david]

What did you give God in return for His salvation?
Is that you again, Trying2bRight/Robert Sanders?

[Timmy]

Is that you again, Trying2bRight/Robert Sanders?

I was wondering that, myself. ;)

[n david]

I was wondering that, myself. ;)
He can change names, but the way he writes gives it away. Especially when Robert Sanders' post here:
The salvation of God is free to those who
will do what is required to receive it.

looks exactly like "CJManzell's" post here:
The salvation of God is free to those who
will do what is required to receive it.
To receive the salvation of God,
it will cost you your life.

First part is exactly the same.

How many names does this clown have on AFF? This is when an IP blocker would be useful when banning someone. Don't just ban the name, ban the IP.

[Michael The Disciple]

What did you give God in return for His salvation?

HE BOUGHT ME. HE OWNS ME.

1 Cor. 6:19-20

Or don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own, 6:20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

See?

[Aquila]

I guess someone forgot to tell the apostles we are not called to be the same as Jesus.

In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

Only those who are like Jesus NOW have any assurance of FINAL salvation.

Anyone who claims to be IN HIM is supposed to be walking AS HE WALKED.

But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 2:6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked. 1 John 2:5-6

So it is at PRESENT we are to be like JESUS.

Like Jesus yes. However, we cannot walk through walls... yet.

[Pressing-On]

When you guys get it figured out, let me know. :heeheehee

LOL! You reminded me of....

Dear Optimist, Pessimist, Realist,

While you guys were busy arguing about the glass of water, I drank it!

Sincerely,
The Opportunist

:heeheehee

[Timmy]

LOL! You reminded me of....

Dear Optimist, Pessimist, Realist,

While you guys were busy arguing about the glass of water, I drank it!

Sincerely,
The Opportunist

:heeheehee

:lol

[Aquila]

Many are not familiar with the doctrines of grace. Many also forget our nature and that we are body, soul, and spirit. Let's consider something...

Body - Flesh (Physical/Material form)
Soul - Mind (Reason, Will, Emotion)
Spirit - "Breath" (Living Essence/Inner Man)

When an elect child of God receives the Holy Ghost, their spirit's regeneration is complete. The Lord now lives in them and His life and power flows through them. They are one spirit with the Lord. They are branches of the true vine. Living extensions of Jesus. But that is only a reality experienced in their "spirit". The "soul" (mind) isn't regenerated yet. Indeed, it will not be regenerated until the resurrection. So the soul must be renewed daily through prayer, study, and sound biblical teaching. This is "putting on the mind of Christ". So, through regeneration the "spirit" has been made holy, and has a new nature. The soul/mind may not be fully aware of this reality because it is not regenerated yet... and indeed the soul/mind may not know biblical truths regarding prayer and surrender. Old thought patterns still exist and can pose a problem. And yes, these can lead to continued temptations and even sin. This is why it is imperative to renew one's mind. Also, there is the body. The physical body (like the soul) is un-regenerated and is still subject to hormones, biological impulses, desires, needs, chemical imbalances, etc. So, both the body and soul (mind) pose as obstacles to our sanctification (growth in Christlikeness). This struggle will exist throughout our earthly lives. As we mature in Christ greater victory is attained by putting on the mind of Christ and mortifying the desires and deeds of the flesh.

Consider this... our regenerated spirit which has partaken in the divine nature is trapped in an un-regenerated humanity. So, the possibility of sin is ever with us. So is the possibility of temptation. We fool ourselves if we even think we're above the un-regenerated aspects of our being. So, we must take heed... lest we fall. When we do fall something interesting happens. If our behaviors are sinful... they are against the new inner nature of the spirit (the inner man). And so, deep in our being, we have a gnawing awareness of sin. With it comes shame, guilt, depression, feelings of having failed God, and sometimes even the feeling that God doesn't love us anymore and has abandoned us in our sinful condition. This is because we have lost fellowship with God. The sin has caused guilt and shame that now get in the way and cause us to fear, run, and even hide from God. We forget so quickly that Christ was our once and for all atonement and propitiation. We can know that God hasn't cast us out in anger and wrath, but rather is waiting as a loving and patient Father for us to confess and re-align our thinking and actions with the inner nature (His Spirit) in the core of our spirit. When we do this, this is repentance. We align soul with spirit and take control over the desires of the flesh once more, bringing harmony and peace to our entire being. This process is actually beneficial. After a lifetime of battling the carnal mind and the desires of the flesh... we have conditioned our "will" to desire perfection. And so when our souls and our bodies are finally regenerated in the resurrection we enter a state of "glorification"... that's complete regeneration (body, soul, and spirit). Every carnal inclination of mind and body will be vanquished. There will be absolutely no resistance to the now conditioned desire for perfection.

Let us not fall for the false doctrine of perfectionism... remember... until our glorification... we're still treasures in earthen vessels. And even our failures and weaknesses can serve to benefit us... if we approach the throne of grace.

[CJManzell]

HE BOUGHT ME. HE OWNS ME.

1 Cor. 6:19-20

Or don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own, 6:20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

See?
Who owned you, before God bought you?

[Pressing-On]

:lol
I just read a Tweet saying they spotted a bumper sticker - "Christianity is not for Sissies".

What do ya think? You want one? :heeheehee

[Pressing-On]

Many are not familiar with the doctrines of grace. Many also forget our nature and that we are body, soul, and spirit. Let's consider something...

Body - Flesh (Physical/Material form)
Soul - Mind (Reason, Will, Emotion)
Spirit - "Breath" (Living Essence/Inner Man)

When an elect child of God receives the Holy Ghost, their spirit's regeneration is complete. The Lord now lives in them and His life and power flows through them. They are one spirit with the Lord. They are branches of the true vine. Living extensions of Jesus. But that is only a reality experienced in their "spirit". The "soul" (mind) isn't regenerated yet. Indeed, it will not be regenerated until the resurrection. So the soul must be renewed daily through prayer, study, and sound biblical teaching. This is "putting on the mind of Christ". So, through regeneration the "spirit" has been made holy, and has a new nature. The soul/mind may not be fully aware of this reality because it is not regenerated yet... and indeed the soul/mind may not know biblical truths regarding prayer and surrender. Old thought patterns still exist and can pose a problem. And yes, these can lead to continued temptations and even sin. This is why it is imperative to renew one's mind. Also, there is the body. The physical body (like the soul) is un-regenerated and is still subject to hormones, biological impulses, desires, needs, chemical imbalances, etc. So, both the body and soul (mind) pose as obstacles to our sanctification (growth in Christlikeness). This struggle will exist throughout our earthly lives. As we mature in Christ greater victory is attained by putting on the mind of Christ and mortifying the desires and deeds of the flesh.

Consider this... our regenerated spirit which has partaken in the divine nature is trapped in an un-regenerated humanity. So, the possibility of sin is ever with us. So is the possibility of temptation. We fool ourselves if we even think we're above the un-regenerated aspects of our being. So, we must take heed... lest we fall. When we do fall something interesting happens. If our behaviors are sinful... they are against the new inner nature of the spirit (the inner man). And so, deep in our being, we have a gnawing awareness of sin. With it comes shame, guilt, depression, feelings of having failed God, and sometimes even the feeling that God doesn't love us anymore and has abandoned us in our sinful condition. This is because we have lost fellowship with God. The sin has caused guilt and shame that now get in the way and cause us to fear, run, and even hide from God. We forget so quickly that Christ was our once and for all atonement and propitiation. We can know that God hasn't cast us out in anger and wrath, but rather is waiting as a loving and patient Father for us to confess and re-align our thinking and actions with the inner nature (His Spirit) in the core of our spirit. When we do this, this is repentance. We align soul with spirit and take control over the desires of the flesh once more, bringing harmony and peace to our entire being. This process is actually beneficial. After a lifetime of battling the carnal mind and the desires of the flesh... we have conditioned our "will" to desire perfection. And so when our souls and our bodies are finally regenerated in the resurrection we enter a state of "glorification"... that's complete regeneration (body, soul, and spirit). Every carnal inclination of mind and body will be vanquished. There will be absolutely no resistance to the now conditioned desire for perfection.

Let us not fall for the false doctrine of perfectionism... remember... until our glorification... we're still treasures in earthen vessels. And even our failures and weaknesses can serve to benefit us... if we approach the throne of grace.

I like this and agree, Aquila. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

Who owned you, before God bought you?

Remember, time is a creation. God exists in an eternal state outside of time and space. God only condescends into time and space to relate to us. In actuality, God is transcendent of time. So, to God... what was "is"... and what is "is"... and what will be "is". An eternal state of "now-ness". I often equate it to omnipresence. In being omnipresent God is "everywhere"... with regards to transcendence... God is also "every-when"... all at once. So yes... Michael belonged to God long before God bought him (I assume you mean the crucifixion). Indeed, God knew, chose, ordained, and loved Michael before creation. God knew that without divine election... Michael would be lost. And so God predestined Michael in Christ as an elect child. God has even already planned all of Michael's days and even called Michael from his mother's womb. In God's eyes... Michael is already seated in glory. God sees Michael strictly as God has determined Michael to become. Not as Michael is. Not what Michael was... but what Michael will be... this is God's reality concerning Michael.

When we speak of God as though God is trapped in time with us... we tear Him down from being a transcendent and sovereign God and imagine Him as a time bound creature such as ourselves.

[CJManzell]

HE BOUGHT ME. HE OWNS ME.

1 Cor. 6:19-20

Or don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own, 6:20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

See?Who owned you, before God bought you?

[Ferd]

Who owned you, before God bought you?

who cares?

[CJManzell]

Here is a Word of Truth for you
whomever you may be
that reads this
I have said on here
just for thee.

If you are not among them
who value and treasure
the salvation of God,
more than any of these.

You are going to be with these
on here who have believed
they have obtained
the salvation of God
for free
at the expense
of another.

[Timmy]

Here is a Word of Truth for you
whomever you may be
that reads this
I have said on here
just for thee.

If you are not among them
who value and treasure
the salvation of God,
more than any of these.

You are going to be with these
on here who have believed
they have obtained
the salvation of God
for free
at the expense
of another.

Not bad. You might want to pay more attention to the meter. Also, decide if you want to rhyme or not, and stick with it. Other than that, not bad.

[CJManzell]

It is written...

For unto whomsoever
much is given, of him shall
be much required

Nothing that God
gives you is... FREE...

from responsibility.

Not salvation.

Not grace.

Not love.

Not even mercy.

NOTHING IS FREE from

required performance

expectations.

[CJManzell]

It is written...

For unto whomsoever
much is given, of him shall
be much required

Nothing that God
gives you is... FREE...

from responsibility.

Not salvation.

Not grace.

Not love.

Not even mercy.

NOTHING IS FREE from

required performance

expectations.

It is written...

For unto whomsoever
much is given, of him shall
be much required

The gift of Eternal Life is about as much, as you can get.

[Monterrey]

Here is a Word of Truth for you
whomever you may be
that reads this
I have said on here
just for thee.

If you are not among them
who value and treasure
the salvation of God,
more than any of these.

You are going to be with these
on here who have believed
they have obtained
the salvation of God
for free
at the expense
of another.

Whoooooooaaaa

I have been here before!!!! This is like Deja Vu!!!!!

Only it was with another personality!!! I am tuning in.....


Wasn't it named


SANDERS?


Don't you just love it when....

HE BOLDS EVERYTHING AS IF HE IS YELLING AT YOU?

[jediwill83]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
CJ Manzell cant rhyme,
And neither can I.

[Monterrey]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
CJ Manzell cant rhyme,
And neither can I.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
The thing about Manzell
Is he wishes we he was READ too!

ha!

[n david]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
The thing about Manzell
Is he wishes we he was READ too!

ha!

:toofunny

[Originalist]

So much for the free gift...

So the fact that God requires repentance somehow means salvation is not a free gift?

[Aquila]

So the fact that God requires repentance somehow means salvation is not a free gift?

God brings one to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No man can be saved as they please. The Father must first draw them,

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Without this drawing... one can go through all the motions and still be damned where they stand. Why do so many come to the altars and never receive the Holy Ghost in spite of their "repenting" and "pleading"? It's because either God has not chosen them... or it is not their time. The Father draws whom He has chosen as He so desires.

God leads those whom He has chosen as part of His elect children to repentance. Ask Saul of Tarsus. Saul was well on his way to Damascus to persecute the church when Jesus knocked him off his horse, rebuked him, and blinded him. Leaving Saul helpless, Jesus told Saul to seek out Ananias in order to know what he must do next. To make a long story short, Saul became Paul, he who was called to preach the gospel from his mother's womb. Had God not brought Saul to repentance and left him to his own free will... Saul would have continued on to Damascus to persecute Christians.

God knows exactly when and how to bring an elect child to repentance. And the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world, simply by God's grace, in accordance to His own sovereign will and purpose. And in this... God alone is glorified. His unmerited mercy and grace is fully demonstrated in His elect. Because while they were yet sinners, He loved them and chose them. Not on account of anything in them or anything they would do. For if God had not elected them and moved upon them, they'd never have turned to God of their own accord.

[LUKE2447]

Is this free?

Mat 18:23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
Mat 18:24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.'
Mat 18:27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'
Mat 18:29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
Mat 18:30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.
Mat 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.
Mat 18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

[Aquila]

Is this free?

Mat 18:23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
Mat 18:24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.'
Mat 18:27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'
Mat 18:29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
Mat 18:30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.
Mat 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.
Mat 18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

I'm not sure if I understand where you are coming from. This passage is about forgiveness, not free will. Can you elaborate?

[Aquila]

Sometimes things are better understood if taken step by step.

Here is a VERY important question regarding this subject:

Can a person approach God and receive salvation without the Father drawing them first?

The biblical answer to this question will begin our journey in the right direction. I answer: No. A man cannot approach God and receive salvation unless the Father draws him first.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Therefore, biblically speaking, salvation is predicated upon God's choosing to draw the soul. Salvation isn't predicated upon the soul's efforts as it relates to approaching God. In fact, a person can choose of their own free will to go to church, go through the motions of being a Christian, go to Bible college, attend seminary, and even take up the profession of being a pastor and prolific Christian author. ... and still not be saved.

[Michael The Disciple]

God brings one to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No man can be saved as they please. The Father must first draw them,

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Without this drawing... one can go through all the motions and still be damned where they stand. Why do so many come to the altars and never receive the Holy Ghost in spite of their "repenting" and "pleading"? It's because either God has not chosen them... or it is not their time. The Father draws whom He has chosen as He so desires.

God leads those whom He has chosen as part of His elect children to repentance. Ask Saul of Tarsus. Saul was well on his way to Damascus to persecute the church when Jesus knocked him off his horse, rebuked him, and blinded him. Leaving Saul helpless, Jesus told Saul to seek out Ananias in order to know what he must do next. To make a long story short, Saul became Paul, he who was called to preach the gospel from his mother's womb. Had God not brought Saul to repentance and left him to his own free will... Saul would have continued on to Damascus to persecute Christians.

God knows exactly when and how to bring an elect child to repentance. And the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world, simply by God's grace, in accordance to His own sovereign will and purpose. And in this... God alone is glorified. His unmerited mercy and grace is fully demonstrated in His elect. Because while they were yet sinners, He loved them and chose them. Not on account of anything in them or anything they would do. For if God had not elected them and moved upon them, they'd never have turned to God of their own accord.

:highfive

[LUKE2447]

I'm not sure if I understand where you are coming from. This passage is about forgiveness, not free will. Can you elaborate?

The point was to salvation being free. People throw around the word free to varying degrees. Does this parable suggest free like many that push free?

[LUKE2447]

:highfive

smh

[Aquila]

:highfive

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

The point was to salvation being free. People throw around the word free to varying degrees. Does this parable suggest free like many that push free?

I look at it like this. God chose Saul. It was God's will to turn Saul to Paul and use him to preach the Gospel. And God chose Saul from before the foundation of the world. God chose Saul in accordance to His sovereign purpose and grace, He didn't choose Saul on account of anything Saul might or might not do, because God knew what He'd have Saul do. And so God invaded Saul's life, knocking him off his horse, and smote him with blindness to bring him to his knees. The cost was Saul's surrender to the sovereign will of God in all things. Did Saul do anything to cause God to choose him? Nope. Thus, Saul's salvation was absolutely free and predicated upon God's sovereign grace. All it truly cost Saul was absolute surrender to God's will and grace. In this, Saul became Paul.

[CJManzell]

I look at it like this. God chose Saul. It was God's will to turn Saul to Paul and use him to preach the Gospel. And God chose Saul from before the foundation of the world. God chose Saul in accordance to His sovereign purpose and grace, He didn't choose Saul on account of anything Saul might or might not do, because God knew what He'd have Saul do. And so God invaded Saul's life, knocking him off his horse, and smote him with blindness to bring him to his knees. The cost was Saul's surrender to the sovereign will of God in all things. Did Saul do anything to cause God to choose him? Nope. Thus, Saul's salvation was absolutely free and predicated upon God's sovereign grace. All it truly cost Saul was absolute surrender to God's will and grace. In this, Saul became Paul.

What criteria does God require that you meet,
to receive His salvation?

[Aquila]

What criteria does God require that you meet,
to receive His salvation?

God must have chosen you before the foundations of the world.
God Himself will see to it that you hear the Gospel, repent, and filled with the Spirit.

[Timmy]

God must have chosen you before the foundations of the world.
God Himself will see to it that you hear the Gospel, repent, and filled with the Spirit.

Well then. If I'm punished, it's because of what God didn't do (choose me), not because of what I did.

Sounds fair.

[Timmy]

(BTW, it's not nice to argue with a banned guy. On the other hand, he has already unbanned himself, so I guess it's OK. :lol)

[Aquila]

Well then. If I'm punished, it's because of what God didn't do (choose me), not because of what I did.

Sounds fair.

No. If a sinner is punished, they are punished for their sin. Chosen for salvation or not... they did the crime. Please note, the election are just as guilty. It's simply that God chose them as vessels of grace and mercy. It wasn't their choice to be saved. It was in accordance to the sovereign and just will of God.

[Timmy]

No. If a sinner is punished, they are punished for their sin. Chosen for salvation or not... they did the crime. Please note, the election are just as guilty. It's simply that God chose them as vessels of grace and mercy. It wasn't their choice to be saved. It was in accordance to the sovereign and just will of God.

True or false: If God chooses me, I won't be punished. If God doesn't choose me, I'll be punished.

The issue of whether I have sinned and deserve punishment, as you point out, is moot. EVERYONE deserves punishment. The question is what God will or will not do to spare me from that punishment.

[Timmy]

(I'm speaking, of course, of your views. These are certainly not my views! Your views are hilariously bizarre.)

[Aquila]

True or false: If God chooses me, I won't be punished. If God doesn't choose me, I'll be punished.

True. Yet you are deserving of damnation.

The issue of whether I have sinned and deserve punishment, as you point out, is moot.

Nope. That's the very point.

EVERYONE deserves punishment. The question is what God will or will not do to spare me from that punishment.

No... the question is God's sovereign will. Does God desire to save you or not? Who better to be entrusted with such a choice than God Himself? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make what He desires, rather it be a vessel of honor or dishonor?

In the argument regarding free will... few wish to grant GOD free will to do as He pleases. Does God have free will to do as He chooses with His creation?

[Aquila]

(I'm speaking, of course, of your views. These are certainly not my views! Your views are hilariously bizarre.)

LOL

That's okay. :D

[Timmy]

True. Yet you are deserving of damnation.



Nope. That's the very point.
It is irrelevant to the question of whether I will be punished or not. That's my point.


No... the question is God's sovereign will. Does God desire to save you or not?
The Bible says he does. That's part of your view's hilarity. God wants to save me, and he will save me if he chooses me for salvation, but he may not. In fact, few will be saved. Most of us won't be. Because of God's choice.

Hilarious.

Who better to be entrusted with such a choice than God Himself? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make what He desires, rather it be a vessel of honor or dishonor?
:toofunny


In the argument regarding free will... few wish to grant GOD free will to do as He pleases. Does God have free will to do as He chooses with His creation?
Well, ya got me there. Of course God doesn't have to be just, if he doesn't want to. (Don't even try to claim that your view of how it works is just!)

[Aquila]

I see a difference between fair and just. I admit, it's not fair. But I do believe it is just.

[Carl]

It is irrelevant to the question of whether I will be punished or not. That's my point.


The Bible says he does. That's part of your view's hilarity. God wants to save me, and he will save me if he chooses me for salvation, but he may not. In fact, few will be saved. Most of us won't be. Because of God's choice.

Hilarious.


:toofunny


Well, ya got me there. Of course God doesn't have to be just, if he doesn't want to. (Don't even try to claim that your view of how it works is just!)

Well God does have use of his own free will and it just so happens he decided to give us a free will as well. A relationship based on true love would involve some level of freedom to chose to love in return. That doesn't threaten or undermine his sovereignty one bit.

[Timmy]

I see a difference between fair and just. I admit, it's not fair. But I do believe it is just.

I deserve to burn.

You deserve to burn.

I will burn.

You won't burn.

And that's justice.

You're hilarious.

[shazeep]

I deserve to burn.

You deserve to burn.

I will burn.

You won't burn.

And that's justice.

You're hilarious.this position assumes that what is coming out of everyones who is involved mouth is correct, when it is known that we deceive ourselves. none of us is equipped to judge who will and won't 'burn,' and Scripture is quite clear on this. it is death-centric to even approach Christ this way; the completely wrong context, drummed into us by 'church.' you are forgiven when you accept it, which includes forgiving others, thus bringing about an emulation of Christ that no verbal confession can even shadow, i don't think. who says that you will burn? i say that they cannot know this, and completely misunderstand salvation. One cannot accept Christ with their mouth.

[Aquila]

I deserve to burn.

You deserve to burn.

I will burn.

You won't burn.

And that's justice.

You're hilarious.

I said that it is "just"... not "justice".

For example, let's say that I have two children. I choose to buy one a tablet and the other a bicycle. They may argue that it's unfair. However, the money is mine to spend as I choose... and frankly, they are entitled to nothing. They are right... it wouldn't be fair. However, it is just.

God's creation is His to do with as He chooses. All blessings are His to grant as He chooses. None of us are entitled to anything. God does as He wills with His creation. So, God chooses an elect remnant to rescue to demonstrate His power, grace, and mercy, in accordance to His will that He might receive glory. They rest... He allows to perish in that they will never choose Him. While we may argue that this isn't fair... it is just.

Justice would demand that everyone suffer eternal Hell.

[Aquila]

My son is in the middle of playing with His tablet. Addison, my girlfriend's daughter, doesn't have a tablet. She asks Noah to share. He says, "No, I'm in the middle of a game." She becomes upset and complains, "Noah's not sharing." Noah pipes up, "I'm in the middle of a game!" I tell her, "Honey, it's Noah's tablet and if he doesn't want to share, that is his choice. It is his."

Now, is Noah being fair? Nope. He's not sharing and trying to make everyone feel good. His decision upsets Addison, and understandably so. However, it is his tablet. Allowing Noah to do as he pleases with his property is just.

[Timmy]

My son is in the middle of playing with His tablet. Addison, my girlfriend's daughter, doesn't have a tablet. She asks Noah to share. He says, "No, I'm in the middle of a game." She becomes upset and complains, "Noah's not sharing." Noah pipes up, "I'm in the middle of a game!" I tell her, "Honey, it's Noah's tablet and if he doesn't want to share, that is his choice. It is his."

Now, is Noah being fair? Nope. He's not sharing and trying to make everyone feel good. His decision upsets Addison, and understandably so. However, it is his tablet. Allowing Noah to do as he pleases with his property is just.

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

[Timmy]

I said that it is "just"... not "justice".

For example, let's say that I have two children. I choose to buy one a tablet and the other a bicycle. They may argue that it's unfair. However, the money is mine to spend as I choose... and frankly, they are entitled to nothing. They are right... it wouldn't be fair. However, it is just.

God's creation is His to do with as He chooses. All blessings are His to grant as He chooses. None of us are entitled to anything. God does as He wills with His creation. So, God chooses an elect remnant to rescue to demonstrate His power, grace, and mercy, in accordance to His will that He might receive glory. They rest... He allows to perish in that they will never choose Him. While we may argue that this isn't fair... it is just.

Justice would demand that everyone suffer eternal Hell.

smh

[Aquila]

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

Do you have a right to do whatever you wish with what is yours? Is this right just?

[Timmy]

Do you have a right to do whatever you wish with what is yours? Is this right just?

It's not an unconditional right, no. I can't use my things to hurt others (without good reason, such as self-defense).

You are trying to use the illustration to show why it is perfectly fine, in your view, for God to select a few humans to spare them the punishment they (in your view) deserve, but go ahead and punish most of us.

If you are trying to show that we "belong" to God and therefor he can do whatever he wants with us, well, yeah, I suppose he could. But it would be beyond bizarre for anyone to expect that capricious and evil being to be worthy of our love and admiration.

[Aquila]

It's not an unconditional right, no. I can't use my things to hurt others (without good reason, such as self-defense).

And so, we agree, there are reasons and circumstances that justify harming others.

You are trying to use the illustration to show why it is perfectly fine, in your view, for God to select a few humans to spare them the punishment they (in your view) deserve,

Are they not His to do with as He chooses?

...but go ahead and punish most of us.

Are we not guilty and deserving of said punishment?

If you are trying to show that we "belong" to God and therefor he can do whatever he wants with us, well, yeah, I suppose he could.

And does.

But it would be beyond bizarre for anyone to expect that capricious and evil being to be worthy of our love and admiration.

Why would He be unworthy of love for choosing to save a remnant of His creation? Would He be more worthy of love if He did nothing and allowed the entire human race to perish?

[Timmy]

Sigh.

[Aquila]

Sigh.

What? lol

Who is better qualified than God Himself to choose, with regards to salvation?

[shazeep]

you remind me of Hitchens with this, T, who demonstrated that he was obviously just mad at God also; a figurative 12 year old screaming 'i hate you' at their parents. Really?

[shazeep]

" But it would be beyond bizarre for anyone to expect that capricious and evil being to be worthy of our love and admiration."

then why not trust that this is the incorrect approach to this vastly misunderstood topic?

[Timmy]

What? lol

Who is better qualified than God Himself to choose, with regards to salvation?

Aquila, does God want me to be saved?

[Aquila]

Aquila, does God want me to be saved?

Ideally, God would want all men to repent of sin and be saved. However, being hopelessly lost and in bondage to sin, God knows that none would turn to Him if He didn't first draw them. And so, God chose to draw an elect remnant to Himself. A people wherein He can demonstrate His love, grace, and mercy.

The many are called... but only the few are chosen.

The more important question is... Do you feel the Father drawing you at this time?

[Timmy]

Ideally, God would want all men to repent of sin and be saved. However, being hopelessly lost and in bondage to sin, God knows that none would turn to Him if He didn't first draw them. And so, God chose to draw an elect remnant to Himself. A people wherein He can demonstrate His love, grace, and mercy.

The many are called... but only the few are chosen.

The more important question is... Do you feel the Father drawing you at this time?

No.

Can you answer the question? Does God want me to be saved?

[Aquila]

No.

Can you answer the question? Does God want me to be saved?

I don't know Timmy. That's deep in the sovereign mind and heart of God.

However, I can tell you what I feel in the Spirit. I think God has drawn you to Christ. Yet you've been hurt. You've been abused. You've been discouraged. You have unanswered questions. You've allowed these things to cause you to step back and even doubt the God who has called you. Yet, He hasn't let go of you. In fact, while your "kicking against the pricks" (as Paul did), God is still steering you like a farmer steers a stubborn oxen.

Why do I think this?

Because you are here. You still enjoy, on some level, conversation and fellowship with the saints of God. This is because in the core of your being... you are one of us. It may take some time for God to heal your hurt. It might take some surrendering to God to silence your questions. And, even if it's on your death bed, He'll bring you to the end of yourself and close the gap that separates you. All of this is part of God's plan for you. Don't despair. He is faithful and will complete the work He started in you.

[Timmy]

I don't know Timmy. That's deep in the sovereign mind and heart of God.
And here I thought it was an easy question, answered in the Bible.


However, I can tell you what I feel in the Spirit. I think God has drawn you to Christ. Yet you've been hurt. You've been abused. You've been discouraged. You have unanswered questions. You've allowed these things to cause you to step back and even doubt the God who has called you. Yet, He hasn't let go of you. In fact, while your "kicking against the pricks" (as Paul did), God is still steering you like a farmer steers a stubborn oxen.

Why do I think this?

Because you are here. You still enjoy, on some level, conversation and fellowship with the saints of God. This is because in the core of your being... you are one of us. It may take some time for God to heal your hurt. It might take some surrendering to God to silence your questions. And, even if it's on your death bed, He'll bring you to the end of yourself and close the gap that separates you. All of this is part of God's plan for you. Don't despair. He is faithful and will complete the work He started in you.

In other words, resistance is futile! :lol

[Aquila]

And here I thought it was an easy question, answered in the Bible.



In other words, resistance is futile! :lol

Consider Saul. Saul's will was to go to Damascus to persecute Christians. Evidently, he had been "kicking against the pricks". Finally, God knocked Saul off his horse and blinded him. Now, terrified and humbled, Saul was ready to hear the Lord. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and find Ananias in order to be told what he must do. The end result... Paul the Apostle. lol

Paul discovered that resistance is futile. ;)

[Carl]

Ideally, God would want all men to repent of sin and be saved. However, being hopelessly lost and in bondage to sin, God knows that none would turn to Him if He didn't first draw them. And so, God chose to draw an elect remnant to Himself. A people wherein He can demonstrate His love, grace, and mercy.

The many are called... but only the few are chosen.

The more important question is... Do you feel the Father drawing you at this time?

Jesus said if he be lifted up he would draw all men unto him. Those who respond to the drawing then become the elect.

[Timmy]

Consider Saul. Saul's will was to go to Damascus to persecute Christians. Evidently, he had been "kicking against the pricks". Finally, God knocked Saul off his horse and blinded him. Now, terrified and humbled, Saul was ready to hear the Lord. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and find Ananias in order to be told what he must do. The end result... Paul the Apostle. lol

Paul discovered that resistance is futile. ;)

Like I said. Hilarious. lol

[Carl]

Like I said. Hilarious. lol

Resistance can start a downward trend. Resist not the spirit, quench not, grieve not. It gets to the place where God can't reach someone if they don't respond. I heard a message by Charles Grisham on this.

[Timmy]

Resistance can start a downward trend. Resist not the spirit, quench not, grieve not. It gets to the place where God can't reach someone if they don't respond. I heard a message by Charles Grisham on this.

Talk to Aquila. Doesn't matter if I resist or not. I have no choice.

[Carl]

Talk to Aquila. Doesn't matter if I resist or not. I have no choice.

Well someone would have to have been predestined to resist if they do, according that theory. Seems to me the only thing we've kept since the garden and the fall is our choice to resist or not. If someone had no choice at all they would never resist even once as it appears Saul was doing.