The Question No One Can Answer

[NotforSale]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

[ILG]

Yep. And if you don't do what they say, bad things will happen to you after you die!

[NotforSale]

Yep. And if you don't do what they say, bad things will happen to you after you die!

And bad things will happen to you now. It's about control and Religious domination. If you question "Them", you're a Heretic.

[Timmy]

After I die, I will be buried or cremated. Pretty sure.

[NotforSale]

After I die, I will be buried or cremated. Pretty sure.

Haha...yeah, that will happen to your body, unless you have to walk the plank and you get eaten by a shark!

[Dordrecht]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

Yes, "religion" changed, but the Word of God didn't.

[Timmy]

Haha...yeah, that will happen to your body, unless you have to walk the plank and you get eaten by a shark!

That hadn't occurred to me. The possibilities are endless, actually!

[Lafon]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

Do you truly desire to know the answer?
Your "allegations" are not only without merit but absolutely ludicrous!
The answer to the Afterlife is found recorded in the Bible; in rather explicit, unmistakably clear language.
Have you ever opened its covers, read its contents, and searched it out for yourself.
Lastly, would you even believe it if someone were to provide you with the specific passages from the Scriptures where the answer is found?

[Michael The Disciple]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

Backsliders are usually not content with their own unbelief. They are not happy till they destroy anothers faith.

[Sean]

Amen and Amen

[NotforSale]

Yes, "religion" changed, but the Word of God didn't.

Then why isn't Eternal Life/Damnation in the Old Testament? Come on, Dordrecht, you're trying to tell me the Bible hasn't changed?? :toofunny

Anyway, you still can't answer the question, even if you think you know what God's Word says.

[NotforSale]

Do you truly desire to know the answer?
Your "allegations" are not only without merit but absolutely ludicrous!
The answer to the Afterlife is found recorded in the Bible; in rather explicit, unmistakably clear language.
Have you ever opened its covers, read its contents, and searched it out for yourself.
Lastly, would you even believe it if someone were to provide you with the specific passages from the Scriptures where the answer is found?

Lafon, just answer the question, because I know, you can't. You have never, "Been there, Done that". And, you don't know anyone who has.

[NotforSale]

Backsliders are usually not content with their own unbelief. They are not happy till they destroy anothers faith.

Come on Mike, answer the question. You know you can't because you have NO PROOF!

[crakjak]

Burpo has and the movie opens Wednesday!!

[NotforSale]

Burpo has and the movie opens Wednesday!!

:pirate

Yeah, and the MONEY will roll in!!

[Jermyn Davidson]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

You don't believe the stories of the little boy who died and went to Heaven or any of the other testimonials that confirm the existence of worlds after we pass from this one?

[Jermyn Davidson]

NotForSale,

Are you a backslider, in real life?

[crakjak]

:pirate

Yeah, and the MONEY will roll in!!

It is a compelling story, I read the book over a year ago. A four year old, near death experience and found out that he had infant sister that died in the womb, says he meet her. No one had told him about her....??? Many similar things.

The money has already rolled in, over ten million books sold, Hannity is interviewing him tonight. Yep, it is gonna roll in, but that doesn't proof he is lying.

[NotforSale]

You don't believe the stories of the little boy who died and went to Heaven or any of the other testimonials that confirm the existence of worlds after we pass from this one?

Nope! It's all a bunch of .....

I will believe the Truth, though.

[NotforSale]

NotForSale,

Are you a backslider, in real life?

Sorry, but I don't believe in backsliding. Reason; there is no way to gauge backsliding, unless, you believe in lies about yourself.

[jacko]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!


Well my own brother who was very non-religious to say the least. was down that road some years ago when he was in a dying state. He stated he saw his wife first and then our mother and other relatives and friends he had known, coming towards him with outstretched arms and beautiful smiles from within a tunnel full of very bright light.... After that he regained conscience much to his disgust as he wouldn't have minded if he had died there & then, the sensation was so beautiful, peaceful and joyful!
If you have difficulty in believing what scripture teaches us in this regard, just take a look on you tube at so many afterlife experiences!

[NotforSale]

It is a compelling story, I read the book over a year ago. A four year old, near death experience and found out that he had infant sister that died in the womb, says he meet her. No one had told him about her....??? Many similar things.

The money has already rolled in, over ten million books sold, Hannity is interviewing him tonight. Yep, it is gonna roll in, but that doesn't proof he is lying.

If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I believe it is a lie. People say a million things about realms beyond this one, especially when they are asleep having a dream.

[NotforSale]

Well my own brother who was very non-religious to say the least. was down that road some years ago when he was in a dying state. He stated he saw his wife first and then our mother and other relatives and friends he had known, coming towards him with outstretched arms and beautiful smiles from within a tunnel full of very bright light.... After that he regained conscience much to his disgust as he wouldn't have minded if he had died there & then, the sensation was so beautiful, peaceful and joyful!
If you have difficulty in believing what scripture teaches us in this regard, just take a look on you tube at so many afterlife experiences!

So, your non-religious brother saw a vision of going to a place beyond this one. Hmmm...all the more reason to not believe him.

No offense, jacko, but this doesn't prove anything. Anyone can have a "Vision" or a "Dream" like the Mormons have, telling people about places and planets that supposedly exist. Did he see 72 Virgins waiting for him? Oh wait, that's what the Muslims believe.

[crakjak]

If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I believe it is a lie. People say a million things about realms beyond this one, especially when they are asleep having a dream.

Well, if a four year old says things about his father and his great grandfather that he could not have known, he must have experienced what he says. A fourteen maybe, but a four year old??

There plenty I don't understand, and even if this is true, I'm not sure what the story means to us.

[NotforSale]

Well, if a four year old says things about his father and his great grandfather that he could not have known, he must have experienced what he says. A fourteen maybe, but a four year old??

There plenty I don't understand, and even if this is true, I'm not sure what the story means to us.

That's the problem, crakjak, people say things that are full of mystery and we immediately presume it means what we want it to mean.

Do you think children from other Religions have the same experience? If they do, then what?

This child's experience doesn't prove there is an afterlife anymore than someone having a dream that appears to "Connect the Dots" of the unknown.

Like I said in my original post, Religions have evolved into this dogma, the direct warning sign of a lie.

[KeptByTheWord]

NotForSale... I guess you'll have to wait until you die until you find out the answer for the question you have posed. Not sure why you've posed the question here, as you certainly aren't expecting to get an answer this side of eternity. Many may try to answer, but no answer will suit you, because you don't want to know the answer until you die....

[Jermyn Davidson]

NotForSale... I guess you'll have to wait until you die until you find out the answer for the question you have posed. Not sure why you've posed the question here, as you certainly aren't expecting to get an answer this side of eternity. Many may try to answer, but no answer will suit you, because you don't want to know the answer until you die....


:huh :huh :huh :huh

[n david]

You go on and believe whatever you want to believe, and I'll believe what the Bible tells me.

:thumbsup

[ILG]

Nobody's faith can be "destroyed" without their consent.

[Michael The Disciple]

Nobody's faith can be "destroyed" without their consent.

There is a road that leads to "consent".

[Aquila]

There have been thousands of documented near death experiences that have taken place when one was clinically dead for a period of time (all containing very similar elements). The Bible speaks of the martyrs in Heaven praying "How long, faithful and true...". The Bible is full of disembodied (non-physical) beings (God, angels, demons). Not to mention, anyone who has ever even dabbled in mediumship can testify that they've connected with realities from another world. The nature of those realities are debated... but sometimes the results are as astounding to the medium as the sitter.

I believe that many are moving into a "rationalism" and departing from more spiritual truths. The afterlife becomes problematic for the perspective being adopted by these individuals.

[ILG]

There is a road that leads to "consent".

True. And it might not be bad. ;)

[ILG]

There have been thousands of documented near death experiences that have taken place when one was clinically dead for a period of time (all containing very similar elements). The Bible speaks of the martyrs in Heaven praying "How long, faithful and true...". The Bible is full of disembodied (non-physical) beings (God, angels, demons). Not to mention, anyone who has ever even dabbled in mediumship can testify that they've connected with realities from another world. The nature of those realities are debated... but sometimes the results are as astounding to the medium as the sitter.

I believe that many are moving into a "rationalism" and departing from more spiritual truths. The afterlife becomes problematic for the perspective being adopted by these individuals.

I just say I hope there is a heaven. I believe there is a heaven. But do I know? No.

[crakjak]

That's the problem, crakjak, people say things that are full of mystery and we immediately presume it means what we want it to mean.

Do you think children from other Religions have the same experience? If they do, then what?

This child's experience doesn't prove there is an afterlife anymore than someone having a dream that appears to "Connect the Dots" of the unknown.

Like I said in my original post, Religions have evolved into this dogma, the direct warning sign of a lie.

I understand that neither the boy nor his parents nor anyone else, can necessarily interpret what the experience means. That's why we should be very humble in our opinions. Things that I believe very strongly, I continue to preface with, "I could be wrong." But as you know that position religiously is a sign of weakness!!! LOL
As I said, if you read the whole story it is very compelling. He was on Hannity last night, and Hannity was asking him theological questions and his answers were more from his religious training than from anything he learned from his "trip to heaven". So, while I believe he had some kind of experience that is hard to explain, his interpretation is very suspect.

[Lafon]

There have been thousands of documented near death experiences that have taken place when one was clinically dead for a period of time (all containing very similar elements). The Bible speaks of the martyrs in Heaven praying "How long, faithful and true...". The Bible is full of disembodied (non-physical) beings (God, angels, demons). Not to mention, anyone who has ever even dabbled in mediumship can testify that they've connected with realities from another world. The nature of those realities are debated... but sometimes the results are as astounding to the medium as the sitter.

I believe that many are moving into a "rationalism" and departing from more spiritual truths. The afterlife becomes problematic for the perspective being adopted by these individuals.

If one doesn't accept as an indisputable truth that the Holy Bible contains the recorded words of the Almighty God, then they also will not accept that its revelations about things are true!

Apparently NotforSale is of that mindset (a personal judgment based upon the statements he has made about this matter), therefore unless, and until, he recognizes and acknowledges that God's Word is truth, I see absolutely nothing of value to gained for him or anyone else by even dialoguing with him. Sad, indeed!

[crakjak]

I just say I hope there is a heaven. I believe there is a heaven. But do I know? No.

I choose to believe that there is an after life, and that it will be very good. I will not live as those that have no hope, because to have hope is much better!!!

So one must choose how to live this life, even though it does not change what the Creator has purposed.

I believe what Jesus said, even though this physical body will die, the real person that we are will never die. God's purpose for each person will continue to a final great future, the trip is different for each, because what we believe determines the path that is required to full redemption.

I have been created in the image of God, therefore I AM.

[Aquila]

Has anyone here ever talked to God, angels, or the those who have passed on? I don't mean with crystal balls or tarot cards. I'm talking about a "knowing"; an exchange of images, words, sounds, or emotions? A communication on the level of the spirit.

I haven't found a person yet who has experienced this who isn't certain that there is "something" beyond physical life. There is an entire world of spiritual realities that are beyond our five senses. It takes spiritual sight to see it. Spiritual ears to hear it. A spiritual heart to feel it. A spiritual hunger to taste it. A spiritual awareness to sense it.

[crakjak]

If one doesn't accept as an indisputable truth that the Holy Bible contains the recorded words of the Almighty God, then they also will not accept that its revelations about things are true!

Apparently NotforSale is of that mindset (a personal judgment based upon the statements he has made about this matter), therefore unless, and until, he recognizes and acknowledges that God's Word is truth, I see absolutely nothing of value to gained for him or anyone else by even dialoguing with him. Sad, indeed!

Indisputable?? Is that a joke, Lafon? If God had meant for His word to be indisputable (in the human realm) He would have presented it in a way that could not be disputed. That is part of being human, to seek and to pursue God and His truth. Truth is, no human knows the "Indisputable Word of God".

We can and should have a position of faith that we believe is "truth", but knowing that we have grown and accepted "more truth" as we have matured and continued to seek. Since our understanding is progressive, at what point is it "indisputable"?

Intellectual honesty is a great gift, and brings great humility and peace.

[ILG]

There are so many things that I used to know that I was wrong about. I hesitate now to say I know something unless I really know it.

[Aquila]

Indisputable?? Is that a joke, Lafon? If God had meant for His word to be indisputable (in the human realm) He would have presented it in a way that could not be disputed. That is part of being human, to seek and to pursue God and His truth. Truth is, no human knows the "Indisputable Word of God".

We can and should have a position of faith that we believe is "truth", but knowing that we have grown and accepted "more truth" as we have matured and continued to seek. Since our understanding is progressive, at what point is it "indisputable"?

Intellectual honesty is a great gift, and brings great humility and peace.

Most don't realize that written "words" are a terrible means of communication. It is because words can be interpreted so many different ways. Also... many religious people become nearly idolatrous about "words" and "holy books" to the point wherein they will deny what the Spirit is trying to reveal to them because they don't readily see it in their "book". The reality is that what the Spirit is trying to reveal is indeed in the book... it simply isn't in their "interpretation" of the "words" contained in the book.

While most will argue that the "words" of the Bible must be absolutely believed and heeded in one's spirituality... the truth is... it is all still subject to interpretation. The born again Christian has an additional angle on things... the Spirit. The Spirit can reveal truths in Scripture not previously seen or understood. Also... the Spirit can reveal things not specifically addressed in Scripture. Scripture is a guide... but the Spirit life. I liken the Bible to a book of basic soldier's tasks, like the one issued to me in the Army. It's very basic and honestly... it doesn't address everything. Most of our applied knowledge is learned on the battlefield.

[Timmy]

Indisputable?? Is that a joke, Lafon? . . .

You must have missed it when Lafon defined "indisputable":

. . .

So, concerning the question - what makes the things (i.e., miracles) which God does to be "indisputable" truths? Simply, and only, because I believe it!! . . .

Yes. Something is indisputable because Lafon believes it.

Booyah!

[Timmy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Lafon]

Indisputable?? Is that a joke, Lafon? If God had meant for His word to be indisputable (in the human realm) He would have presented it in a way that could not be disputed. That is part of being human, to seek and to pursue God and His truth. Truth is, no human knows the "Indisputable Word of God".

We can and should have a position of faith that we believe is "truth", but knowing that we have grown and accepted "more truth" as we have matured and continued to seek. Since our understanding is progressive, at what point is it "indisputable"?

Intellectual honesty is a great gift, and brings great humility and peace.

Is God a respecter of persons? Absolutely not!

Seeing Paul wrote that he was caught up to the 3rd heaven, where there he saw and heard things which it was not lawful for him to disclose, then why should we think it unreasonable, yea, impossible, that God would not do the same thing for a saint today?

If you or I believe God will do the same thing for us, and we are living a life that is pleasing in His sight, then why not ask Him to do it?

Would you believe it if someone told you that they have done just that? Probably not, that is, if you continue to be as skeptical as your comments appear to indicate you to be!

All things are according to one's belief! Believe it and receive it. Refuse to believe and you'll not receive! Simple? Indeed!

[Timmy]

IAll things are according to one's belief! Believe it and receive it.

lol

[NotforSale]

NotForSale... I guess you'll have to wait until you die until you find out the answer for the question you have posed. Not sure why you've posed the question here, as you certainly aren't expecting to get an answer this side of eternity. Many may try to answer, but no answer will suit you, because you don't want to know the answer until you die....

KBTH, just answer the question. Either you know or you don't. I'm not trying to be cynical, just honest. Too many people throw around Heaven and Hell like they've been there, done that.

And none of us have. The Bible also contradicts itself by presenting Heaven/Hell in the New Testament, but not in the Old Testament.

Keep in mind, many Jews do not believe in the Afterlife, and that our journey here on Earth is our chance to be the best we can be, with the blessings we have been given.

The Inheritance of old was physical and tangible, where milk and honey was their provision, and land was where they built their home. If God truly made this Earth for our pleasure, then we should look up with gratitude, and look down with the purpose to make the best of this life.

Instead, people within Christianity have become fatalists, all because of the Afterlife they are not sure even exists. I don't know how many times I've heard this said over the last 35 years in the UPC, "I wish Jesus would just come and take us all home today! You can have this old World! I'm done!"

This statement is selfish, creating an attitude that sees this life as worthless, something (IMO) that God never intended.

[NotforSale]

Nobody's faith can be "destroyed" without their consent.

Amen, and Amen!

[Lafon]

If God had meant for His word to be indisputable (in the human realm) He would have presented it in a way that could not be disputed.

And, God did just that! Do you question the "indisputable" veracity of the God-inspired words of Psalm 33:4, which explicitly states that "For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth"? Of course, if you believe it to imply something else, then apparently you have some learning to do. As for me, I accept it as written.

Intellectual honesty is a great gift, and brings great humility and peace.

Am I to accept this statement to imply that you're questioning my integrity? If so, then shame on you! You don't know me, nor do I know you. I accept the things you write as representative of your "honest" beliefs. What prevents you from also accepting the statements I publicly express in the same manner?

[NotforSale]

You go on and believe whatever you want to believe, and I'll believe what the Bible tells me.

:thumbsup

And what does the Bible tell you?

[NotforSale]

Well, if a four year old says things about his father and his great grandfather that he could not have known, he must have experienced what he says. A fourteen maybe, but a four year old??

There plenty I don't understand, and even if this is true, I'm not sure what the story means to us.

IMO, the younger the age the more we should question. Children have a huge imagination and any number of things could cause this child to say what he did.

My kids were looking through our photo albums when they couldn't even walk, and pictures can plant inside the library of our mind, even at a young age.

I've had way too many people come to me with dreams/visions, thinking they meant something. Sorry, but I've resorted to other methods to conclude truth in my life.

[NotforSale]

There have been thousands of documented near death experiences that have taken place when one was clinically dead for a period of time (all containing very similar elements). The Bible speaks of the martyrs in Heaven praying "How long, faithful and true...". The Bible is full of disembodied (non-physical) beings (God, angels, demons). Not to mention, anyone who has ever even dabbled in mediumship can testify that they've connected with realities from another world. The nature of those realities are debated... but sometimes the results are as astounding to the medium as the sitter.

I believe that many are moving into a "rationalism" and departing from more spiritual truths. The afterlife becomes problematic for the perspective being adopted by these individuals.

That's right! From every Religion in the World. Also, do you know how fast a dream can happen? In seconds.

Here are near death experiences from Hindus: http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

[NotforSale]

If one doesn't accept as an indisputable truth that the Holy Bible contains the recorded words of the Almighty God, then they also will not accept that its revelations about things are true!

Apparently NotforSale is of that mindset (a personal judgment based upon the statements he has made about this matter), therefore unless, and until, he recognizes and acknowledges that God's Word is truth, I see absolutely nothing of value to gained for him or anyone else by even dialoguing with him. Sad, indeed!

Lafon, do you believe in the Old Testament?

[Lafon]

Lafon, do you believe in the Old Testament?

Absolutely!

[NotforSale]

Indisputable?? Is that a joke, Lafon? If God had meant for His word to be indisputable (in the human realm) He would have presented it in a way that could not be disputed. That is part of being human, to seek and to pursue God and His truth. Truth is, no human knows the "Indisputable Word of God".

We can and should have a position of faith that we believe is "truth", but knowing that we have grown and accepted "more truth" as we have matured and continued to seek. Since our understanding is progressive, at what point is it "indisputable"?

Intellectual honesty is a great gift, and brings great humility and peace.

Excellent!

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

[NotforSale]

Absolutely!

Eternal Damnation/Heaven of the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament. This my friend, is a problem, a Religious problem.

[n david]

And what does the Bible tell you?
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

You believe what you want and live how you want, I'll stick with the Bible and what it says.

I understand you're disgusted and discouraged with man's religion and the various denominations and dogmas, but the word of God is sure and true.

[NotforSale]

Has anyone here ever talked to God, angels, or the those who have passed on? I don't mean with crystal balls or tarot cards. I'm talking about a "knowing"; an exchange of images, words, sounds, or emotions? A communication on the level of the spirit.

I haven't found a person yet who has experienced this who isn't certain that there is "something" beyond physical life. There is an entire world of spiritual realities that are beyond our five senses. It takes spiritual sight to see it. Spiritual ears to hear it. A spiritual heart to feel it. A spiritual hunger to taste it. A spiritual awareness to sense it.

Yes, and all Religions seek this spiritual realm under the same premise; Spectral Evidence.

[NotforSale]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

You believe what you want and live how you want, I'll stick with the Bible and what it says.

I understand you're disgusted and discouraged with man's religion and the various denominations and dogmas, but the word of God is sure and true.

Then why are there over 30,000 Christian Denominations in the World who use the same "Book" you do, but believe differently than you do? Who's right? You?

[n david]

Then why are there over 30,000 Christian Denominations in the World who use the same "Book" you do, but believe differently than you do? Who's right? You?
The Bible.

It's appointed for man to die... after that comes the judgement.

[NotforSale]

The Bible.

It's appointed for man to die... after that comes the judgement.

This doesn't answer the question. The above statement is loaded with rules and dogmas that vary between Denominations, and "Who" goes "Where" is anybodies guess.

The Afterlife is a guessing game that humans cannot figure out.

[Aquila]

The Bible.

It's appointed for man to die... after that comes the judgement.

The Bible indicates that there is a time period between death and the judgment. For example, the souls of the martyrs in the book of Revelation are crying out for justice... and the judgment doesn't follow until the end of the Revelation.

[KeptByTheWord]

I've not answered your question, because you really won't accept any answer except the answer you think you know, which is "you don't know." lol...

You are right in that no one "KNOWS" for sure while here in this life, exactly how it will be in the next life. Regardless of what awaits us in the afterlife, though, there are enough clues in the world around us to show us that God's ways are higher, and far better than ours.

For example: A seed that is dried up, and lifeless must be put into the ground, and buried, before it will begin to produce new life. How does that work? How can this be?

Can you explain how you got here? How was your life created? Were you the Creator of your own life?

These sorts of questions are a good place to start with to try to find solid ground to begin to understand these concepts that man has wrestled with ever since he was created. Until you can explain how you got here, and why, then you won't be able to explain where you are going when you die.

[crakjak]

And, God did just that! Do you question the "indisputable" veracity of the God-inspired words of Psalm 33:4, which explicitly states that "For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth"? Of course, if you believe it to imply something else, then apparently you have some learning to do. As for me, I accept it as written.



Am I to accept this statement to imply that you're questioning my integrity? If so, then shame on you! You don't know me, nor do I know you. I accept the things you write as representative of your "honest" beliefs. What prevents you from also accepting the statements I publicly express in the same manner?

Sorry, I was not questioning your integrity, I was making a statement of fact.

I certainly believe THE Word of God is indisputable. What is disputable is the interpretation that humans place on the scriptures. Since I personally have experienced growth and maturity in understanding, I recognize "intellectually" that my earlier understanding was disputable. It is therefore reasonable to also believe that my current understanding is disputable.

What God has spoken is absolute truth, however the moment it is handled by humans it becomes disputable. I have no dispute with Psalms 33:4, nor has anything I have posted contradicted that verse.

Our understanding is by faith, and we must have a heart for the Lord, and to continually seek to KNOW Him as he really is. And that, my friend, is lifetime pursuit.

[crakjak]

You must have missed it when Lafon defined "indisputable":



Yes. Something is indisputable because Lafon believes it.

Booyah!

You bad, Timmy!!

[crakjak]

Is God a respecter of persons? Absolutely not!

Seeing Paul wrote that he was caught up to the 3rd heaven, where there he saw and heard things which it was not lawful for him to disclose, then why should we think it unreasonable, yea, impossible, that God would not do the same thing for a saint today?

If you or I believe God will do the same thing for us, and we are living a life that is pleasing in His sight, then why not ask Him to do it?

Would you believe it if someone told you that they have done just that? Probably not, that is, if you continue to be as skeptical as your comments appear to indicate you to be!

All things are according to one's belief! Believe it and receive it. Refuse to believe and you'll not receive! Simple? Indeed!

I seek to know God, as he really is, and I believe I know Him much more as He really is than I did when I started my journey of faith. I today continue to desire to KNOW the Eternal more "perfectly". I know He is good, and that His most dominant characteristic is LOVE, therefore I am skeptical of doctrines that portray Him otherwise. So in one sense I understand and agree with your post, but I still believe there is much room for dispute. I even believe it is biblical to dispute with God when it seems what we have embraced as truth doesn't work out. Moses certainly did, and God relented. Maybe He even wants us to stand up and argue.

[crakjak]

IMO, the younger the age the more we should question. Children have a huge imagination and any number of things could cause this child to say what he did.

My kids were looking through our photo albums when they couldn't even walk, and pictures can plant inside the library of our mind, even at a young age.

I've had way too many people come to me with dreams/visions, thinking they meant something. Sorry, but I've resorted to other methods to conclude truth in my life.

I believe the kid had an experience that was extraordinary, and it was a spiritual experience, and that he learned things in that state that were impossible in the physical. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience, so sometimes there is layover. I do believe NDE's give evidence of continuing life beyond death of our physical bodies, however imperfect that evidence may be.

However, I do not believe that we can take what he experienced as doctrine, because the meaning he and his family place on it is interpreted thru their lens of experience, etc. I especially don't believe his theological interpretations are "indisputable".

[votivesoul]

If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I believe it is a lie.

And therein lies the problem. You are making the onus of reliability your own ability to prove something as true or false, and not upon the honesty and integrity of the source. You refuse to accept by faith anything that is not empirically verifiable?

If so, that's just plain stupid.

Why not simply say, "If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I have no solid basis upon which I can rest my belief"?

Why does it have to become a "lie"? A lie is an intentional falsification of facts intended to deceive. You think so evil of a 4 year old child?

So let me ask you:

What do you believe about Jesus?

Jesus said the following, empirically unproveable statements:

- That He was sent from God the Father
- That God Himself was His Father
- That He came from Heaven
- That whosoever believes on Him will never die but have everlasting life
- That whoever believes on Him passes from death to life
- That some will go away to everlasting punishment, and some "in the world to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:30)

Can you or do you believe these things? If not, or if since you cannot prove them, are these statements now lies, thus making Jesus, like the child you discredit, a LIAR?

You want people to answer what you think is an impossible question. Here is a question for you that is not impossible to answer:

Do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and all who believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life?

[votivesoul]

Sorry, but I don't believe in backsliding. Reason; there is no way to gauge backsliding, unless, you believe in lies about yourself.

Being backslid is easily gauged. Are you now equal distance to, farther from, or closer to, the Object from which you might backslid, i.e. God?

If you answer "farther from" you are backslid.

How easy can it get?

If I push a stone up a hill, with the goal of reaching the top, but then, for whatever reason, let it roll back and downward any degree, is it not backslid?

Obviously. So too are you and me and anyone else who rolls back and downward, spiritually speaking.

[votivesoul]

Eternal Damnation/Heaven of the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament. This my friend, is a problem, a Religious problem.

Say what?

From the KJV:

Heaven is used 313 times in the OT.

Heavens is used 108 times in the OT.

For ever is used 329 times in the OT.

For ever and ever is used 25 times in the OT.

Everlasting is used 65 times in the OT.

In Psalm 112:6, it speaks of God holding the righteous in an everlasting rememberance, i.e. eternal life in heaven.

In Psalm 145:13, Daniel 4:3, and Daniel 7:27, we are told God's kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom.

Indeed, Daniel 7, after speaking of the four beasts and the little horn, plainly states that God's Kingdom of Heaven is eternal (See Daniel 7:13-28).

Of special note is Daniel 7:18,

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Isaiah 45:17 speaks of God's everlasting salvation.

Regarding Eternal Damnation:

Psalm 9:5,

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:2,

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:24,

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The Lord Jesus quoted this very verse three times in succession at the end of Mark 9 in reference to people going into "hell", i.e. Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire (See also Isaiah 34:1-10).

Jeremiah 23:40,

And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

These are eternal condemnations pronounced against certain people by God.

All are Old Testament.

So is your statement accurate or would you like to withdraw?

[votivesoul]

Finally, to answer your question:

Revelation 20-22,

Chapter 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Chapter 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

There is a difference between mere belief (i.e. something one believes because they assume a fact to be true even without knowing), and actual belief. Actual belief is knowledge.

Said another way knowledge is justified belief.

I am justified in my belief that the three chapters posted above given an accurate, God-ordained answer to your question. This means I KNOW.

You can argue and squabble if you want, and whatever.

But note: the verses above have nothing to do with "religion" as you use the term. John either saw a vision from God and faithfully transcribed the vision into words, or HE DIDN'T.

Do what you want with that.

[Timmy]

You bad, Timmy!!

Just quoted him. (And yeah, a bit of commentary. But he said exactly what I said he said. Follow the link.)

[crakjak]

Just quoted him. (And yeah, a bit of commentary. But he said exactly what I said he said. Follow the link.)

I know, I did.

[Aquila]

I've not answered your question, because you really won't accept any answer except the answer you think you know, which is "you don't know." lol...

You are right in that no one "KNOWS" for sure while here in this life, exactly how it will be in the next life. Regardless of what awaits us in the afterlife, though, there are enough clues in the world around us to show us that God's ways are higher, and far better than ours.

For example: A seed that is dried up, and lifeless must be put into the ground, and buried, before it will begin to produce new life. How does that work? How can this be?

Can you explain how you got here? How was your life created? Were you the Creator of your own life?

These sorts of questions are a good place to start with to try to find solid ground to begin to understand these concepts that man has wrestled with ever since he was created. Until you can explain how you got here, and why, then you won't be able to explain where you are going when you die.

I'm reminded of a verse...

1 Corinthians 2:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

With this verse many argue that we can't know what God has prepared for us on the other side. However, they never seem to focus on the very next verse...

I Corinthians 2:10
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

We can know... if we allow the Spirit to reveal it to us.

[NotforSale]

And therein lies the problem. You are making the onus of reliability your own ability to prove something as true or false, and not upon the honesty and integrity of the source. You refuse to accept by faith anything that is not empirically verifiable?

If so, that's just plain stupid.

Why not simply say, "If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I have no solid basis upon which I can rest my belief"?

Why does it have to become a "lie"? A lie is an intentional falsification of facts intended to deceive. You think so evil of a 4 year old child?

So let me ask you:

What do you believe about Jesus?

Jesus said the following, empirically unproveable statements:

- That He was sent from God the Father
- That God Himself was His Father
- That He came from Heaven
- That whosoever believes on Him will never die but have everlasting life
- That whoever believes on Him passes from death to life
- That some will go away to everlasting punishment, and some "in the world to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:30)

Can you or do you believe these things? If not, or if since you cannot prove them, are these statements now lies, thus making Jesus, like the child you discredit, a LIAR?

You want people to answer what you think is an impossible question. Here is a question for you that is not impossible to answer:

Do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and all who believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life?

Do an extensive study on the Salem Witch Trials. Make sure you pay attention to this one bit of fact (if you want the facts), if you decide to look into this dicey piece of history; Spectral Evidence.

Then when you're done with that, find out how much money this Family has made on this, "Out of Body Experience". It's all about the MONEY, BUNNY!

[NotforSale]

Being backslid is easily gauged. Are you now equal distance to, farther from, or closer to, the Object from which you might backslid, i.e. God?

If you answer "farther from" you are backslid.

How easy can it get?

If I push a stone up a hill, with the goal of reaching the top, but then, for whatever reason, let it roll back and downward any degree, is it not backslid?

Obviously. So too are you and me and anyone else who rolls back and downward, spiritually speaking.

Yep, it's easily gauged when you think you are better than everyone else.

[NotforSale]

Finally, to answer your question:

Revelation 20-22,



There is a difference between mere belief (i.e. something one believes because they assume a fact to be true even without knowing), and actual belief. Actual belief is knowledge.

Said another way knowledge is justified belief.

I am justified in my belief that the three chapters posted above given an accurate, God-ordained answer to your question. This means I KNOW.

You can argue and squabble if you want, and whatever.

But note: the verses above have nothing to do with "religion" as you use the term. John either saw a vision from God and faithfully transcribed the vision into words, or HE DIDN'T.

Do what you want with that.

Good thing you're not using these verses to prove your point in 390 A.D.! The Book of Revelation wasn't even part of the Canon at that time, and was the last to be added (reluctantly in 397 A.D.) to the current Bible you have.

To this day, many in Christendom do not accept the Book of Revelation as original text, or belonging in Scripture.

[Jason B]

Sorry, but I don't believe in backsliding. Reason; there is no way to gauge backsliding, unless, you believe in lies about yourself.

Or unless someone simply chooses to believe a lie.

You know, because they don't have a love for the truth.

[votivesoul]

Notforsale,

Is Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

Did the glory of God the Father raise Him from the dead?

Do people who believe on Him have the promise of everlasting life?

If your answer is yes, then you accept as true things which you cannot prove, thus making your earliest comments false.

If your answer is no, then you are indeed backslid (if you ever once embraced these concepts as true).

Salem witch trials and whatever else doesn't matter. It's a rabbit trail, a red herring so you can avoid the issue.

Trying to make a case against Revelation's early canonicity is also bogus. Just because Jerome and Gregory of Nazianzus doubted it in the mid to late 4th century, doesn't mean it wasn't generally accepted well before then, because it was.

So you can quote Denzinger all you want and cast doubts on the autheticity of the book if you like. But it doesn't make it so, and it's not the only book of the Bible that fully comments on the hope of resurrection and eternal life in Christ in heaven.

And that's what you're avoiding, refusing to deal with.

Jesus specifically mentioned "the world to come" in Luke 18:30, that is the coming age/aeon of the New Jerusalem.

Do you believe the words of Jesus or not?

[NotforSale]

Notforsale,

Is Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

Did the glory of God the Father raise Him from the dead?

Do people who believe on Him have the promise of everlasting life?

If your answer is yes, then you accept as true things which you cannot prove, thus making your earliest comments false.

If your answer is no, then you are indeed backslid (if you ever once embraced these concepts as true).

Salem witch trials and whatever else doesn't matter. It's a rabbit trail, a red herring so you can avoid the issue.

Trying to make a case against Revelation's early canonicity is also bogus. Just because Jerome and Gregory of Nazianzus doubted it in the mid to late 4th century, doesn't mean it wasn't generally accepted well before then, because it was.

So you can quote Denzinger all you want and cast doubts on the autheticity of the book if you like. But it doesn't make it so, and it's not the only book of the Bible that fully comments on the hope of resurrection and eternal life in Christ in heaven.

And that's what you're avoiding, refusing to deal with.

Jesus specifically mentioned "the world to come" in Luke 18:30, that is the coming age/aeon of the New Jerusalem.

Do you believe the words of Jesus or not?

VS, you are in the bondage of Religion. Your ideas are not your own and your belief system is the result of indoctrination via Religion, Culture, and Family upbringing.

I have been set free from this bondage, and I don't live in worry about the afterlife because I admit what you're afraid to admit; you don't know.

I read a great quote recently: There is peace in acceptance. When human beings stop lying to themselves, they will stop using vain judgment and condemnation that does nothing but justify their own evil deeds.

This will lead to the acceptance that we simply don't know what awaits the dead and that God knows, we don't know. When you get tired of the confusion, you might just take the plunge into honesty and the truth that doesn't focus on your little world and mind, where Spectral Evidence has bound your thoughts with superstition, not the facts.

So, you think your "Saved"? Why are you Saved, and others are not? Dare you compare yourself? There are none righteous...

[NotforSale]

Or unless someone simply chooses to believe a lie.

You know, because they don't have a love for the truth.

Yeah, it's so sad to see all of the lies in Christianity. You tell Christians the truth, and they still continue down the path of ideas that cannot be proven.

The worst form of Truth, is a Truth that cannot be measured.

[Esther]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!

This post Leads me to think you would not believe Their answer.

[KeptByTheWord]

NotForSale:

I have a question.... when a seed is put into the ground, it is dried, shriveled up, and lifeless. How can something that is dead, begin to produce life?

[votivesoul]

You got me pegged, NFS.

I am a slave to Christ through the will of God. I am bound to the pure and un-defiled religion of visiting and comforting widows and orphans in their affliction and in keeping myself un-spotted in the world.

Now let me see if I can peg you?

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[ILG]

NotForSale:

I have a question.... when a seed is put into the ground, it is dried, shriveled up, and lifeless. How can something that is dead, begin to produce life?

Is a seed really dead?

[FlamingZword]

Yeah, it's so sad to see all of the lies in Christianity. You tell Christians the truth, and they still continue down the path of ideas that cannot be proven.

The worst form of Truth, is a Truth that cannot be measured.

This is the sad truth.
because you received not the love of the truth, that you might be saved. for this cause God sent you a strong delusion, that you should believe a lie: That you might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Paraphrased)

Bye enjoy this life for that is all you will have.
what are you doing wasting your time with us? go and enjoy your life to the maximum for this is all the happiness you will have.

[Timmy]

NotForSale:

I have a question.... when a seed is put into the ground, it is dried, shriveled up, and lifeless. How can something that is dead, begin to produce life?

I can't even.

[NotforSale]

NotForSale:

I have a question.... when a seed is put into the ground, it is dried, shriveled up, and lifeless. How can something that is dead, begin to produce life?

I am a horticulturist, and seeds are alive. They can also die if they are not stored properly, or they are exposed to extremes. If they die, the seed will not germinate.

"A seed is a living, respiring organism, despite usually appearing inert or even dead. To remain alive, the embryo must have access to food and oxygen. Eventually if it runs out of food or is subjected to physical damage, including attack by insects or fungi, it will die. If you want the seed to be sown to produce another plant, a dead seed is of no value whatever."

http://aseeds.net.au/9-faqs/general/49-what-is-a-seed-and-how-does-it-work

[NotforSale]

You got me pegged, NFS.

I am a slave to Christ through the will of God. I am bound to the pure and un-defiled religion of visiting and comforting widows and orphans in their affliction and in keeping myself un-spotted in the world.

Now let me see if I can peg you?

I'm not surprised that you are a Slave to Religion, a very sad bondage. You can't be bound to anything pure or undefiled here on Earth, because there is no such thing.

You also can't keep yourself unspotted from the World because you were born in sin and shapen in iniquity. There are none righteous…and Paul said:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

[NotforSale]

This is the sad truth.
because you received not the love of the truth, that you might be saved. for this cause God sent you a strong delusion, that you should believe a lie: That you might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Paraphrased)

Bye enjoy this life for that is all you will have.
what are you doing wasting your time with us? go and enjoy your life to the maximum for this is all the happiness you will have.

That's exactly what the Jews believed. They lived this life to the fullest, as this was a gift from God. To behold this truth is truly beautiful, as the fatalist attitude is destroyed and a true compassion for humanity is developed.

Love for the truth? Let me get this strait, you're the one who "Thinks" they know what awaits us in the Afterlife, yet, you don't know and tell others that you do!

As you can see in my Profile picture, I am a very happy man with my wife of 34 years. I have 3 grown children, 6 grandchildren, and numerous other Family members that I have reconnected with after my deliverance from Religion. I have gone to them in repentance for my dogmatic past of condemning, and many tears have been shed, and relationships restored.

I do love the truth, and that truth has set me free from the bondage of someones idea that causes division and hate, not love, support, and grace for the weak.

So, go ahead with your Spectral Ideas that you cannot prove are true, and maybe one day, you'll see the light that is staring you right in the face, called, "You Don't Know!"

[votivesoul]

I'm not surprised that you are a Slave to Religion, a very sad bondage. You can't be bound to anything pure or undefiled here on Earth, because there is no such thing.

You also can't keep yourself unspotted from the World because you were born in sin and shapen in iniquity. There are none righteous…and Paul said:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

So you're calling James, the brother of the Lord Jesus, who, in the Hebrew tongue was known as a Tzaddik, a liar?

[FlamingZword]

As you can see in my Profile picture, I am a very happy man with my wife of 34 years. I have 3 grown children, 6 grandchildren, and numerous other Family members that I have reconnected with after my deliverance from Religion. I have gone to them in repentance for my dogmatic past of condemning, and many tears have been shed, and relationships restored.

I do love the truth, and that truth has set me free from the bondage of someones idea that causes division and hate, not love, support, and grace for the weak.


If you lived three hundredth and forty years, with 10 wives, 30 grown children and 60 grandchildren and a whole army of family members that would not make up for what you have lost.

I would not care if you had 10 mansions, 10 Rolls Royces, and 10 billion dollars in the bank, you still can not come out even.

What shall it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his own soul?

If you do not love Jesus and follow his commandments you do not love the truth for Jesus is the truth. You are in bondage to sin.

[Monterrey]

So has anyone come up with the answer in over 100 posts?

[Sean]

Answer to what???, did someone ask a question???LOL

[Disciple4life]

Hebrews 9:27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,

Sounds pretty simple to me. Do I get a prize?

[Disciple4life]

What will happen to people when they die?

I thought this was the question.

[crakjak]

This much I will tell,
what's lost is nothing to what is found!"

"And all the death that ever was, set next to LIFE,
shall scarcely fill a cup."

--Godric

Happy Resurrection Day!!
This LIFE will soon overtake this dying planet, and ALL will be made new, that God may be ALL in ALL!!

[crakjak]

That's exactly what the Jews believed. They lived this life to the fullest, as this was a gift from God. To behold this truth is truly beautiful, as the fatalist attitude is destroyed and a true compassion for humanity is developed.

Love for the truth? Let me get this strait, you're the one who "Thinks" they know what awaits us in the Afterlife, yet, you don't know and tell others that you do!

As you can see in my Profile picture, I am a very happy man with my wife of 34 years. I have 3 grown children, 6 grandchildren, and numerous other Family members that I have reconnected with after my deliverance from Religion. I have gone to them in repentance for my dogmatic past of condemning, and many tears have been shed, and relationships restored.

I do love the truth, and that truth has set me free from the bondage of someones idea that causes division and hate, not love, support, and grace for the weak.

So, go ahead with your Spectral Ideas that you cannot prove are true, and maybe one day, you'll see the light that is staring you right in the face, called, "You Don't Know!"

No, except for the Sadducees, the Jews believed in the resurrection, and in doing so they believed that there is life after death.

I have no problem with you questioning and shedding many religious doctrines, but to believe that your life ends at the end of this physical existence is a very sad position to be in, (I'm not sure you believe that, but you comments seem close to that position).

I may not know what exactly comes next, but I am confident that is it is good. The divine, infinite intelligence, God that brought the impossible together for life on earth, has farther plans and purposes!!

I am at peace and trust the Eternal completely for what happens next.

[crakjak]

We all live our lives with some sort of faith in the unseen, we all process information differently therefore the definition of our unseen is different than another's.

So, don't be so critical of others faith, your new founded belief also is based on faith in what you NOW believe.

Loss of fear of the unseen, in my opinion, is the greatest of faith. Faith that the majesty of the cosmos was by design, including good and evil on this earth. Faith that the Eternal, with such ability as is displayed in the physical world hasn't lost His ability to complete what is in motion. I desire to know "Him" as He really is, therefore I continue to seek, critical of human forced interpretations.

The use of the tradition view of hell is the worst of all human manipulations, which instills fear of the Eternal, and is, in fact blasphemy against the Creator.

"Perfect love casts out fear...." yet religion capitalizes on fear, and that is just wrong.

[NotforSale]

No, except for the Sadducees, the Jews believed in the resurrection, and in doing so they believed that there is life after death.

I have no problem with you questioning and shedding many religious doctrines, but to believe that your life ends at the end of this physical existence is a very sad position to be in, (I'm not sure you believe that, but you comments seem close to that position).

I may not know what exactly comes next, but I am confident that is it is good. The divine, infinite intelligence, God that brought the impossible together for life on earth, has farther plans and purposes!!

I am at peace and trust the Eternal completely for what happens next.

The Jewish Faith holds no real answer to the question, and the Torah says nothing about an Afterlife. The subject is wide open, and, no definitive answer lies within the teachings or doctrine of the Jews.

"Many faiths have definitive teachings about the afterlife. But in answer to the question "What happens after we die?" the Torah, our most important religious text, is surprisingly silent. Nowhere does it discuss the afterlife in detail.

Over the centuries a few possible descriptions of the afterlife have been incorporated into Jewish thought. However there is no definitively Jewish explanation for what happens after we die.

Why Doesn’t the Torah Discuss the Afterlife?

No one knows exactly why the Torah doesn't discuss the afterlife. Instead, the Torah focuses on "Olam Ha Ze," which means "this world." Rabbi Joseph Telushkin believes that this focus on the here and now is not only intentional but directly related to the Israelite exodus from Egypt."

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Afterlife-In-Judaism-Jewish-Beliefs.htm

[NotforSale]

Hebrews 9:27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,

Sounds pretty simple to me. Do I get a prize?

Nope! The only real way you can answer the question is if, YOU, know the answer, which, (no offense), you don't. Any Book can say something, but without solid proof, it's still a mystery.

I'll emphasize this one point: the above Scripture sounds easy enough. But, if we do not truly know how to avoid the negative ramifications of "The Judgment", how can we tell others how?

Your answer on "How", will be different than everyone else's, and the reason is simple; Religion.

[Disciple4life]

Nope! The only real way you can answer the question is if, YOU, know the answer, which, (no offense), you don't. Any Book can say something, but without solid proof, it's still a mystery.

I'll emphasize this one point: the above Scripture sounds easy enough. But, if we do not truly know how to avoid the negative ramifications of "The Judgment", how can we tell others how?

Your answer on "How", will be different than everyone else's, and the reason is simple; Religion.

Maybe you should leave your religion behind and meet Jesus.

[Sean]

Not for sale...seriously...what did someone do to you? I read your story and 'we" have some great similarities. I quit 'church" about a year and a half ago over some unsettled stuff, but I wont let it go anywhere near my faith in God and the Bible. Just read any of my threads...I dont indicate what I am going through these days(quitting church). What happened.... I gotta know...Lets talk bro. (private thread)

[Timmy]

I'm with you, NFS. Much guessing, no knowing. Some guesses are believed so strongly that they think they know. But they don't.

Not that they're wrong. Somebody's right, but nobody knows who.

[Sean]

Timmy, that one would look great on a Catholic marquee in front of the school in our town. They put all kinds of witty ones there...LOL

[Disciple4life]

Part of Faith is believing without seeing. Hmm... I read that somewhere before. :thumbsup

[Timmy]

Timmy, that one would look great on a Catholic marquee in front of the school in our town. They put all kinds of witty ones there...LOL

And of course, you "know". :heeheehee

[Sean]

If not, we are ALL Catholics...yikes

[NotforSale]

Part of Faith is believing without seeing. Hmm... I read that somewhere before. :thumbsup

Believing without seeing is a slippery slope to the most purest form of manipulation on Earth, and Religions know this.

Human imagination is a dangerous place, where facts become muddled with ideas.

[Timmy]

Believing without seeing is a slippery slope to the most purest form of manipulation on Earth, and Religions know this.

Human imagination is a dangerous place, where facts become muddled with ideas.

None of the disciples believed without seeing. Thomas wasn't the only doubter.

[Timmy]

(So it says. ;))

[Disciple4life]

Wow! Anyway I have faith and I do know. Nobody can tell me what I do or do not Know.

No offense but if somebody wants to question and doubt endlessly then at the end all they will have is nothing but doubt.

Maybe you don't want the truth?

[ILG]

The Jewish Faith holds no real answer to the question, and the Torah says nothing about an Afterlife. The subject is wide open, and, no definitive answer lies within the teachings or doctrine of the Jews.

"Many faiths have definitive teachings about the afterlife. But in answer to the question "What happens after we die?" the Torah, our most important religious text, is surprisingly silent. Nowhere does it discuss the afterlife in detail.

Over the centuries a few possible descriptions of the afterlife have been incorporated into Jewish thought. However there is no definitively Jewish explanation for what happens after we die.

Why Doesn’t the Torah Discuss the Afterlife?

No one knows exactly why the Torah doesn't discuss the afterlife. Instead, the Torah focuses on "Olam Ha Ze," which means "this world." Rabbi Joseph Telushkin believes that this focus on the here and now is not only intentional but directly related to the Israelite exodus from Egypt."

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Afterlife-In-Judaism-Jewish-Beliefs.htm

Interesting thoughts!

[NotforSale]

Wow! Anyway I have faith and I do know. Nobody can tell me what I do or do not Know.

No offense but if somebody wants to question and doubt endlessly then at the end all they will have is nothing but doubt.

Maybe you don't want the truth?

Doesn't sound like you want the truth, since nobody can tell you what you do, or do not know.

[ILG]

Doesn't sound like you want the truth, since nobody can tell you what you do, or do not know.

Actually, wanting the truth would be not allowing anybody to tell you what you do or do not know...just sayin'.

[NotforSale]

None of the disciples believed without seeing. Thomas wasn't the only doubter.

:popcorn2

[Disciple4life]

1 Timothy 1
4 Nor to give importance to or occupy themselves with legends (fables, myths) and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God’s administration and the divine training that is in faith ([a]in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence)—

5 Whereas the object and purpose of our instruction and charge is love, which springs from a pure heart and a good (clear) conscience and sincere (unfeigned) faith.

6 But certain individuals have missed the mark on this very matter [and] have wandered away into vain arguments and discussions and purposeless talk.


Proverbs 26:3-5

3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a [straight, slender] rod for the backs of [self-confident] fools.

4 Answer not a [self-confident] fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.

5 Answer a [self-confident] fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes and conceit.

I am done. I will never get this five minutes of my life back.

[NotforSale]

Actually, wanting the truth would be not allowing anybody to tell you what you do or do not know...just sayin'.

Wouldn't that depend on the subject or issue at hand. For example, when I was in school learning math, I had to listen to someone who knew how to add and subtract. In the end, I found the truth I didn't have before.

If I didn't allow my teachers to expand on the real truth, I would have failed my class and lived in ignorance, regardless if I thought I was right or not.

[NotforSale]

1 Timothy 1
4 Nor to give importance to or occupy themselves with legends (fables, myths) and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God’s administration and the divine training that is in faith ([a]in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence)—

5 Whereas the object and purpose of our instruction and charge is love, which springs from a pure heart and a good (clear) conscience and sincere (unfeigned) faith.

6 But certain individuals have missed the mark on this very matter [and] have wandered away into vain arguments and discussions and purposeless talk.


Proverbs 26:3-5

3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a [straight, slender] rod for the backs of [self-confident] fools.

4 Answer not a [self-confident] fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.

5 Answer a [self-confident] fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes and conceit.

I am done. I will never get this five minutes of my life back.

This is the typical response from people in Religion. Notice the rebuke, condemnation, and ridicule of those who don't agree with D4L. D4L, what makes you better than everyone else?

You should have just pulled out the Scriptures on Eternal Torture, and then you would be "done" with us and everyone else who doesn't agree with you.

[ILG]

Wouldn't that depend on the subject or issue at hand. For example, when I was in school learning math, I had to listen to someone who knew how to add and subtract. In the end, I found the truth I didn't have before.

If I didn't allow my teachers to expand on the real truth, I would have failed my class and lived in ignorance, regardless if I thought I was right or not.

I don't think your teacher stood there and told you what you did or didn't know. They probably just taught math....and you caught on.

[n david]

The Jewish Faith holds no real answer to the question, and the Torah says nothing about an Afterlife. The subject is wide open, and, no definitive answer lies within the teachings or doctrine of the Jews.

"Many faiths have definitive teachings about the afterlife. But in answer to the question "What happens after we die?" the Torah, our most important religious text, is surprisingly silent. Nowhere does it discuss the afterlife in detail.

Over the centuries a few possible descriptions of the afterlife have been incorporated into Jewish thought. However there is no definitively Jewish explanation for what happens after we die.

Why Doesn’t the Torah Discuss the Afterlife?

No one knows exactly why the Torah doesn't discuss the afterlife. Instead, the Torah focuses on "Olam Ha Ze," which means "this world." Rabbi Joseph Telushkin believes that this focus on the here and now is not only intentional but directly related to the Israelite exodus from Egypt."

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Afterlife-In-Judaism-Jewish-Beliefs.htm
They do believe in an afterlife, the Jewish term for it is Olam Ha-Ba. And the Torah does speak of the afterlife.

Some scholars claim that belief in the afterlife is a teaching that developed late in Jewish history. It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.

Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come.

Later portions of the Tanakh speak more clearly of life after death and the World to Come. See Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5.

Even the 13 Principles of Faith, which they faithfully recite every day after morning prayers in the synagogue, show belief in the afterlife:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

[Timmy]

Only religion allows one to "know" something just by being told that you must "know" it, or else.

[n david]

Only religion allows one to "know" something just by being told that you must "know" it, or else.
It's not merely religion, Jesus Himself said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned.

[Timmy]

It's not merely religion, Jesus Himself said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned.

Are you really going to say that's not a religion?

[Timmy]

It's not merely religion, Jesus Himself said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned.

Anyway, yeah, that was my point. :thumbsup

So, the only reason you know what happens when you die is that you are told to believe it. Is that correct?

[n david]

Are you really going to say that's not a religion?
There are hundreds of religions in the world, present and past. My point was that it's more than just a religion telling you when Jesus says it. IMO, religion is something man created. I presented a quote from Jesus, whom most spirit-filled christians base their faith on.

So, the only reason you know what happens when you die is that you are told to believe it. Is that correct?
Well, I haven't died and been resurrected.

We walk by faith and not by sight. I believe in the resurrection and judgement because that's what Jesus, and the Bible, taught.

[Timmy]

There are hundreds of religions in the world, present and past. My point was that it's more than just a religion telling you when Jesus says it. IMO, religion is something man created. I presented a quote from Jesus, whom most spirit-filled christians base their faith on.


Well, I haven't died and been resurrected.

We walk by faith and not by sight. I believe in the resurrection and judgement because that's what Jesus, and the Bible, taught.

That's better. :)

[ILG]

Only religion allows one to "know" something just by being told that you must "know" it, or else.

LOL!:thumbsup

[ILG]

Anyway, yeah, that was my point. :thumbsup

So, the only reason you know what happens when you die is that you are told to believe it. Is that correct?

I think many of us have had a strong experience with God that leads us to believe there is something after death. It doesn't prove it, however.

[Timmy]

I think many of us have had a strong experience with God that leads us to believe there is something after death. It doesn't prove it, however.

Nor do other religions' experiences prove their beliefs. :thumbsup

[ILG]

Nor do other religions' experiences prove their beliefs. :thumbsup

Yes, I agree with that as well. However, I believe it points to a God. That is my belief. :)

[NotforSale]

They do believe in an afterlife, the Jewish term for it is Olam Ha-Ba. And the Torah does speak of the afterlife.



Even the 13 Principles of Faith, which they faithfully recite every day after morning prayers in the synagogue, show belief in the afterlife:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, the Afterlife was not a prominent or dogmatic thought in the Old Testament, and it was never used as a tactic of Salvation. Bits and pieces seem to point to a different place beyond this one, but nothing was concrete or considered doctrine regarding the destiny of the dead.

The "Evolution" came when the New Testament appeared on the scene. Christians suddenly had the answer; Heaven and Hell. If you were good enough, Heaven would become your place of mansions, streets of gold, walls of jasper, and a crystal sea. If you didn't make it, too bad, you will be tortured forever in fire and brimstone.

Since the Old Testament doesn't even come close to supporting such ideas, we can clearly see this transition from one state to the other, where Religion(s) began to realize that greater control comes from greater fear, especially fear of the unknown.

Control was clearly Rome's intention, as uniting the Christians (Jews) with the Heathens (Gentiles) would be a difficult one. With the "Fear Bag" called Hell, Religious leaders could now initiate forms of discipline or ideas that tormented their followers if they became rebellious to Catholic/Christian dogmas.

When Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, there was never one word said about anyone burning in Hell for Eternity, or, of someone going to Heaven forever. Then you travel 1000's of years later into the future, and WAHLA, that's all people worry about; the unknown.

I have spoken with so many Christians who are depressed, anxious, and full of worry. With messages at Church that reflect, "We're going to be OUTTA HERE!", or "The World is going to END!", people have lost the joy of this life, for another life they aren't even sure exists.

This is a reproach to the Creator and the Creation that is meant to bless us with provision, family, and the realities of life. Eternity has created heartless Religions, where people will be tortured by a G-d that tolerates no disobedience, in a way we will never understand. As our families develop, we see that not all people are the same and that failure is a dominant trait in humans that cannot be suppressed, yet, we still throw the weak over our cliffs of judgment and into the doom of pure horror, all because "We THINK we know, even though we DON'T".

Folks, something is severely wrong with this picture.

[n david]

Jesus Himself spoke of an afterlife. If you can't see it, you're either willfully ignoring it or haven't read what He said.

[KeptByTheWord]

NotForSale:

I have a question.... when a seed is put into the ground, it is dried, shriveled up, and lifeless. How can something that is dead, begin to produce life?

I am a horticulturist, and seeds are alive. They can also die if they are not stored properly, or they are exposed to extremes. If they die, the seed will not germinate.

"A seed is a living, respiring organism, despite usually appearing inert or even dead. To remain alive, the embryo must have access to food and oxygen. Eventually if it runs out of food or is subjected to physical damage, including attack by insects or fungi, it will die. If you want the seed to be sown to produce another plant, a dead seed is of no value whatever."

http://aseeds.net.au/9-faqs/general/49-what-is-a-seed-and-how-does-it-work

Exactly. :D

A seed appears lifeless, without form, and not having any life, however, life can inherently live within a seed, even though by looking at the seed it looks dead. Until that seed is put into the ground though, in apparent death, it will not be able to bring forth that life that resides in it.

I believe that this is a great way to understand that life does not end just when we think it does. New life always comes forth out of that which appears dead. The laws of nature teach us that new life CAN come forth out of that which is, to all appearances dead.

For this reason, this natural law teaches us that when a death takes place, under the right circumstances, that form takes on life that was already present within itself to live again.

I believe this is a tremendous parable that we can look to, and understand that when we die, we do not die to never live again. Instead, (as you mentioned above) if the right circumstances have been a part of our lives (water, sun, nutrients naturally for the seed, and for us spiritually, if our faith is in an eternal God who manifested himself through his Son Jesus), then new life is able to come forth out of that death.

This is the hope that Christians have. It is not fear! It is life eternal. We can live a wonderful life here on earth with the Lord, walking with Him and then, at a given point in time, our life as we know it here will end in death, but that death will serve to bring forth a newness of life that will be something totally different, and beyond what we can expect from this life. That is our hope. It is not a fear, but it is a hope that springs from the knowledge that we can have life eternal in Jesus Christ.

[crakjak]

No matter how you slice it and dice it, the Afterlife was not a prominent or dogmatic thought in the Old Testament, and it was never used as a tactic of Salvation. Bits and pieces seem to point to a different place beyond this one, but nothing was concrete or considered doctrine regarding the destiny of the dead.

The "Evolution" came when the New Testament appeared on the scene. Christians suddenly had the answer; Heaven and Hell. If you were good enough, Heaven would become your place of mansions, streets of gold, walls of jasper, and a crystal sea. If you didn't make it, too bad, you will be tortured forever in fire and brimstone.

Since the Old Testament doesn't even come close to supporting such ideas, we can clearly see this transition from one state to the other, where Religion(s) began to realize that greater control comes from greater fear, especially fear of the unknown.

Control was clearly Rome's intention, as uniting the Christians (Jews) with the Heathens (Gentiles) would be a difficult one. With the "Fear Bag" called Hell, Religious leaders could now initiate forms of discipline or ideas that tormented their followers if they became rebellious to Catholic/Christian dogmas.

When Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, there was never one word said about anyone burning in Hell for Eternity, or, of someone going to Heaven forever. Then you travel 1000's of years later into the future, and WAHLA, that's all people worry about; the unknown.

I have spoken with so many Christians who are depressed, anxious, and full of worry. With messages at Church that reflect, "We're going to be OUTTA HERE!", or "The World is going to END!", people have lost the joy of this life, for another life they aren't even sure exists.

This is a reproach to the Creator and the Creation that is meant to bless us with provision, family, and the realities of life. Eternity has created heartless Religions, where people will be tortured by a G-d that tolerates no disobedience, in a way we will never understand. As our families develop, we see that not all people are the same and that failure is a dominant trait in humans that cannot be suppressed, yet, we still throw the weak over our cliffs of judgment and into the doom of pure horror, all because "We THINK we know, even though we DON'T".

Folks, something is severely wrong with this picture.

Amen! :thumbsup

[Sean]

Boy that speech should make God change His mind...powerful!!!!

[n david]

No matter how you slice it and dice it, the Afterlife was not a prominent or dogmatic thought in the Old Testament, and it was never used as a tactic of Salvation. Bits and pieces seem to point to a different place beyond this one, but nothing was concrete or considered doctrine regarding the destiny of the dead.

The "Evolution" came when the New Testament appeared on the scene. Christians suddenly had the answer; Heaven and Hell. If you were good enough, Heaven would become your place of mansions, streets of gold, walls of jasper, and a crystal sea. If you didn't make it, too bad, you will be tortured forever in fire and brimstone.

Since the Old Testament doesn't even come close to supporting such ideas, we can clearly see this transition from one state to the other, where Religion(s) began to realize that greater control comes from greater fear, especially fear of the unknown.

Control was clearly Rome's intention, as uniting the Christians (Jews) with the Heathens (Gentiles) would be a difficult one. With the "Fear Bag" called Hell, Religious leaders could now initiate forms of discipline or ideas that tormented their followers if they became rebellious to Catholic/Christian dogmas.

When Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, there was never one word said about anyone burning in Hell for Eternity, or, of someone going to Heaven forever. Then you travel 1000's of years later into the future, and WAHLA, that's all people worry about; the unknown.

I have spoken with so many Christians who are depressed, anxious, and full of worry. With messages at Church that reflect, "We're going to be OUTTA HERE!", or "The World is going to END!", people have lost the joy of this life, for another life they aren't even sure exists.

This is a reproach to the Creator and the Creation that is meant to bless us with provision, family, and the realities of life. Eternity has created heartless Religions, where people will be tortured by a G-d that tolerates no disobedience, in a way we will never understand. As our families develop, we see that not all people are the same and that failure is a dominant trait in humans that cannot be suppressed, yet, we still throw the weak over our cliffs of judgment and into the doom of pure horror, all because "We THINK we know, even though we DON'T".

Folks, something is severely wrong with this picture.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, repentance, water baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost was not a prominent or dogmatic thought in the Old Testament, and it was never used as a tactic of Salvation. Bits and pieces seem to point to it, but nothing was concrete or considered doctrine regarding the plan of salvation.

The "Evolution" came when this guy named Jesus appeared on the scene, and afterwards when the New Testament was written. Jesus and His "Disciples" suddenly had the answer -" you must be born again!" If you believed and were baptized, you were saved; if you didn't believe...you were damned!

Since the Old Testament doesn't even come close to supporting such ideas, we can CLEARLY see this transition from one state to the other, where Religions began to accept Jesus' teaching as truth. Besides, the Old Testament is better because it's ... older and therefore more better.

When Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, there was never one word said about a plan of salvation. Then you travel 1000's of years later into the future, and VOILA!, that's all religious leaders preach!

This must be a reproach to the Creator and the Creation that is meant to bless us with things that make us happy and forget about the wages of sin being death and all that stuff, which isn't spoken in the Old, cooler, Testament. The plan of salvation has created meanie preachers who preach that people must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As our families develop, we see that not all people are the same, and not all people are bad; yet, we still demand the sinner be saved...all because "We BELIEVE the words of Jesus and His disciples."

Folks, something has to be wrong with Jesus' words, because I want to live MY life without any consequence! It's MY life, and no one - no even Jesus Christ - should tell me how I should live MY life.

But I'm going to tell you how you should live your life and what you should believe. Over and over and over again. The Bible is just a book that was created by the RCC and Pope Willy John Johnson XII. The TORAH doesn't even mention the plan of salvation...neither does the Christian Old Testament. What do you mean they're the same?

:)


/tic

[NotforSale]

Jesus Himself spoke of an afterlife. If you can't see it, you're either willfully ignoring it or haven't read what He said.

You are willfully ignoring that you don't know, and that your doctrine is bathed with assumptions and maybes that lead to depression and bondage.

Come on, Dave, tell us why you won't go to Hell, and why you're so special and deserve to go to Heaven!

[NotforSale]

Exactly. :D

A seed appears lifeless, without form, and not having any life, however, life can inherently live within a seed, even though by looking at the seed it looks dead. Until that seed is put into the ground though, in apparent death, it will not be able to bring forth that life that resides in it.

I believe that this is a great way to understand that life does not end just when we think it does. New life always comes forth out of that which appears dead. The laws of nature teach us that new life CAN come forth out of that which is, to all appearances dead.

For this reason, this natural law teaches us that when a death takes place, under the right circumstances, that form takes on life that was already present within itself to live again.

I believe this is a tremendous parable that we can look to, and understand that when we die, we do not die to never live again. Instead, (as you mentioned above) if the right circumstances have been a part of our lives (water, sun, nutrients naturally for the seed, and for us spiritually, if our faith is in an eternal God who manifested himself through his Son Jesus), then new life is able to come forth out of that death.

This is the hope that Christians have. It is not fear! It is life eternal. We can live a wonderful life here on earth with the Lord, walking with Him and then, at a given point in time, our life as we know it here will end in death, but that death will serve to bring forth a newness of life that will be something totally different, and beyond what we can expect from this life. That is our hope. It is not a fear, but it is a hope that springs from the knowledge that we can have life eternal in Jesus Christ.

Look, you didn't say, "APPEAR" dead, you said dead. You're starting to do what Dave is doing, twisting the truth when you're cornered to save face.

[NotforSale]

No matter how you slice it and dice it, repentance, water baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost was not a prominent or dogmatic thought in the Old Testament, and it was never used as a tactic of Salvation. Bits and pieces seem to point to it, but nothing was concrete or considered doctrine regarding the plan of salvation.

The "Evolution" came when this guy named Jesus appeared on the scene, and afterwards when the New Testament was written. Jesus and His "Disciples" suddenly had the answer -" you must be born again!" If you believed and were baptized, you were saved; if you didn't believe...you were damned!

Since the Old Testament doesn't even come close to supporting such ideas, we can CLEARLY see this transition from one state to the other, where Religions began to accept Jesus' teaching as truth. Besides, the Old Testament is better because it's ... older and therefore more better.

When Adam and Eve failed in the Garden, there was never one word said about a plan of salvation. Then you travel 1000's of years later into the future, and VOILA!, that's all religious leaders preach!

This must be a reproach to the Creator and the Creation that is meant to bless us with things that make us happy and forget about the wages of sin being death and all that stuff, which isn't spoken in the Old, cooler, Testament. The plan of salvation has created meanie preachers who preach that people must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As our families develop, we see that not all people are the same, and not all people are bad; yet, we still demand the sinner be saved...all because "We BELIEVE the words of Jesus and His disciples."

Folks, something has to be wrong with Jesus' words, because I want to live MY life without any consequence! It's MY life, and no one - no even Jesus Christ - should tell me how I should live MY life.

But I'm going to tell you how you should live your life and what you should believe. Over and over and over again. The Bible is just a book that was created by the RCC and Pope Willy John Johnson XII. The TORAH doesn't even mention the plan of salvation...neither does the Christian Old Testament. What do you mean they're the same?

:)


/tic

:trashcan

[KeptByTheWord]

Look, you didn't say, "APPEAR" dead, you said dead. You're starting to do what Dave is doing, twisting the truth when you're cornered to save face.

LOL! How am I "cornered"?

Can you deny that a seed can either be dead, or appears to be dead? Can you deny that from this apparent lack of life, there does come forth life? Can you deny the natural lesson from this?

[NotforSale]

LOL! How am I "cornered"?

Can you deny that a seed can either be dead, or appears to be dead? Can you deny that from this apparent lack of life, there does come forth life? Can you deny the natural lesson from this?

I'm not denying anything. You said that seeds are dead. Now, you're saying they are not dead.

There is a difference, a big difference when it comes to this subject.

[KeptByTheWord]

I'm not denying anything. You said that seeds are dead. Now, you're saying they are not dead.

There is a difference, a big difference when it comes to this subject.

They are both, lol. They are dead to what they were, but life within them remains to make them into something they can never be without that death.

Do you believe that the seed is a natural lesson for us to understand the spiritual process by which death brings forth life?

[NotforSale]

They are both, lol. They are dead to what they were, but life within them remains to make them into something they can never be without that death.

Do you believe that the seed is a natural lesson for us to understand the spiritual process by which death brings forth life?

How can I see a natural lesson via a lie. Seeds are not dead, they are alive.

When a seed actually dies, it cannot and will not grow into anything. If I don't store my seeds properly, they will not survive and produce a crop.

[FlamingZword]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Actually I can tell you what will happen, the problem is that you will not accept the answer to your question.

I do know because the Bible tells me so.

When people die they will be judged and those whose names are written in the book of life will inherent eternal life, but those who are not will be cast into the lake of fire.

Here I have answered your question.
take it or leave it, but that is the real answer.

[NotforSale]

Actually I can tell you what will happen, the problem is that you will not accept the answer to your question.

I do know because the Bible tells me so.

When people die they will be judged and those whose names are written in the book of life will inherent eternal life, but those who are not will be cast into the lake of fire.

Here I have answered your question.
take it or leave it, but that is the real answer.

All hail, FlamingZword!! He says he knows, but he doesn't. Will you continue to spread myth and fantasy, or will you admit the truth; you don't know.

[KeptByTheWord]

How can I see a natural lesson via a lie. Seeds are not dead, they are alive.

When a seed actually dies, it cannot and will not grow into anything. If I don't store my seeds properly, they will not survive and produce a crop.

By your own words you have the answer:

Originally Posted by NotforSale
I am a horticulturist, and seeds are alive. They can also die if they are not stored properly, or they are exposed to extremes. If they die, the seed will not germinate.

"A seed is a living, respiring organism, despite usually appearing inert or even dead. To remain alive, the embryo must have access to food and oxygen. Eventually if it runs out of food or is subjected to physical damage, including attack by insects or fungi, it will die. If you want the seed to be sown to produce another plant, a dead seed is of no value whatever."

http://aseeds.net.au/9-faqs/general/...w-does-it-work

Without proper conditions, a seed will not be able to produce life. Without proper faith, a soul cannot die, and have eternal life. With proper conditions, a seed may fall into the ground, and life can come forth from it... therein lies the natural lesson that speaks to the eternity of man. Faith conditioning will determine whether your seed (soul) will live, or die eternally.

[NotforSale]

By your own words you have the answer:



Without proper conditions, a seed will not be able to produce life. Without proper faith, a soul cannot die, and have eternal life. With proper conditions, a seed may fall into the ground, and life can come forth from it... therein lies the natural lesson that speaks to the eternity of man. Faith conditioning will determine whether your seed (soul) will live, or die eternally.

Wow! You just keep putting the "Spin" on. You're starting to sound like the Media.

You said in your initial post, seeds are dead. When we get past that point, then we have a discussion.

[KeptByTheWord]

Wow! You just keep putting the "Spin" on. You're starting to sound like the Media.

You said in your initial post, seeds are dead. When we get past that point, then we have a discussion.

Lol... seems to me that you're evading the obvious conclusion that I've pointed out, because it messes with your ideology. ;)

[n david]

It's the Gospel according to NFS. Nothing is right except what he believes. Ironic, considering he continually blasts "religious" people who dare speak what the Bible says as truth.

He's like certain left-leaning groups who demand tolerance, but give none themselves.

[n david]

I feel sad for you, NFS. Not only do you have absolutely no proof for what YOU claim and believe; but you can't even rely on faith in the word of God or Jesus Christ to help you because you don't believe in the Bible or Him.

[Sean]

NFS thinks he is going to drag people out of the body of Christ with his backslid nonsense...actually it makes me know how 'messed up' I could become if I walk away from God and deny Christ. Man, I am really making sure I dont end up like him. It can happen to anyone.

Thanks NFS, I will be sure to cross the finish line because of you. Im serious. It scares me to know what I could be facing if I fall back....

[FlamingZword]

All hail, FlamingZword!! He says he knows, but he doesn't. Will you continue to spread myth and fantasy, or will you admit the truth; you don't know.

I will admit that Jesus is the truth and you are not.

[votivesoul]

Say what?

From the KJV:

Heaven is used 313 times in the OT.

Heavens is used 108 times in the OT.

For ever is used 329 times in the OT.

For ever and ever is used 25 times in the OT.

Everlasting is used 65 times in the OT.

In Psalm 112:6, it speaks of God holding the righteous in an everlasting rememberance, i.e. eternal life in heaven.

In Psalm 145:13, Daniel 4:3, and Daniel 7:27, we are told God's kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom.

Indeed, Daniel 7, after speaking of the four beasts and the little horn, plainly states that God's Kingdom of Heaven is eternal (See Daniel 7:13-28).

Of special note is Daniel 7:18,



Isaiah 45:17 speaks of God's everlasting salvation.

Regarding Eternal Damnation:

Psalm 9:5,



Daniel 12:2,



Isaiah 66:24,



The Lord Jesus quoted this very verse three times in succession at the end of Mark 9 in reference to people going into "hell", i.e. Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire (See also Isaiah 34:1-10).

Jeremiah 23:40,



These are eternal condemnations pronounced against certain people by God.

All are Old Testament.

So is your statement accurate or would you like to withdraw?

Why does NFS keep trying to claim the OT says nothing of an "after-life"?

He even says it's not in the Torah, or is, but just barely.

Here's a quote from God Himself:

"I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"

Three dead men (but actually still alive in the presence of God) by the time God said this to Moses, which Jesus used from the Torah to prove the resurrection and an after-life to the Sadducees, who said the Torah doesn't teach a resurrection and an after-life.

NFS, Jesus refuted your comments 1,980 some years ago.

[votivesoul]

Also from the Torah:

God's condemnation of necromancy (i.e. wizards with familiar spirits), or death magic, in which spirits from beyond the grave are conjured (a la Samuel).

Exodus 22:18,

18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Leviticus 19:31,

Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6, 27,

6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12,

9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

For more proof, consult Isaiah 8:19.

It's all there in the OT, especially the Torah, for those who have eyes to see.

[votivesoul]

Luke 16:19-3

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Notforsale,

If you will not listen to Moses in the Torah and the Prophets of the Old Testament, is it no wonder you refuse to accept the idea of an after-life?

Not even if someone on this board claimed to have died and gone to heaven or hell, only to be raised from death, would you believe. You would go on your rant about "Spectral Evidence" and dismiss the evidence presented.

Well, guest what? I have not died, have not gone to heaven or hell, but I know Someone who has. His witness is true. Jesus Christ died, descended into Sheol, rose from the dead, and now presides over all of heaven, having been highly exalted by His God and Father.

I know there is an after-life of heaven and hell, not because I have personally experienced either, but because HE HAS, and I trust Him. His word is true.

Unless you deny Christ's death, burial, descent into hell, resurrection, and ascension into heaven?

If you do, then quit wasting time, come out with it, admit to your reprobation, and leave the board and us brain-washed masses to our religious indoctrination.

[Monterrey]

Wow!

So we still don't know?

[Carl]

We know there is a resurrection and have hope in it. We also know the afterlife begins with the resurrection for the believer.

For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. (I Timothy 4:8)

[Timmy]

We know there is a resurrection and have hope in it. We also know the afterlife begins with the resurrection for the believer.

For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. (I Timothy 4:8)

Yes, yes, you know because you have read it. :thumbsup

[Timmy]

If I wanted to, I could "know" that I'll be reincarnated. All I have to do is read.

[Dichotomy Girl]

What will happen to people when they die?

They will be forced to read every forum post where they smugly asserted that something was the truth, while the people on the other side :laffatu

(This will be extra embarrassing for me, as I have posts in many forums, on every possible part of the spectrum)

[Timmy]

They will be forced to read every forum post where they smugly asserted that something was the truth, while the people on the other side :laffatu

(This will be extra embarrassing for me, as I have posts in many forums, on every possible part of the spectrum)

At least everyone gets a turn at laughing. :heeheehee

[NotforSale]

Lol... seems to me that you're evading the obvious conclusion that I've pointed out, because it messes with your ideology. ;)

A dead seed doesn't grow into anything. A seed that is alive, does. Just like the seed of a man, dead sperm won't produce anything. Just ask a couple who can't have children.

The question is, what happens to dead humans, not living ones. There is no possible way you know what happens because you have not seen, or been too, the "Other Side".

You can keep referring to what other people have said in the Scriptures, but that doesn't prove anything because countless Books in other Faith's proclaim that they know.

If we can't meet with the dead, it will be a mystery until we die, and guessing will be the closest we get to understanding the truth about the Afterlife.

[NotforSale]

It's the Gospel according to NFS. Nothing is right except what he believes. Ironic, considering he continually blasts "religious" people who dare speak what the Bible says as truth.

He's like certain left-leaning groups who demand tolerance, but give none themselves.

Tolerance? Tolerance for what? Tolerance for the lies or assumptions you believe in?

Dave, I'm still waiting for your answer; why will YOU go to Heaven, and, who will go to Hell?

What makes you soooooo good that you will live in everlasting Life, while everyone else burns in Hell forever? Will the Catholics make it? How about the Baptists? What if someone isn't baptized? What about people like me, who struggle to understand or comprehend what I can't see?

Now Dave, do you take care of that Temple you live in? Or do you sin just a "little bit"? Maybe just a cuss word once in a while? Eat a little too much, or maybe a lot, like a great majority of people in Religion today?

What about someone who's divorced? Someone who isn't faithful to Church? Women who cut their hair? Where makeup?...................

Where is the line of God's mercy? I do know this, I have found great peace in being merciful to the people I used to condemn and call, sinners. I have also found that Religion can become the darkest form of manipulation on Earth, as Spectral Evidence is used as fact, and is the Evidence no one can prove.

[NotforSale]

NFS thinks he is going to drag people out of the body of Christ with his backslid nonsense...actually it makes me know how 'messed up' I could become if I walk away from God and deny Christ. Man, I am really making sure I dont end up like him. It can happen to anyone.

Thanks NFS, I will be sure to cross the finish line because of you. Im serious. It scares me to know what I could be facing if I fall back....

Sean, when you see the light, you'll realize this one, solid truth; the entire Human Race is messed up, so stop living in denial.

[n david]

Tolerance? Tolerance for what? Tolerance for the lies or assumptions you believe in?

Dave, I'm still waiting for your answer; why will YOU go to Heaven, and, who will go to Hell?

What makes you soooooo good that you will live in everlasting Life, while everyone else burns in Hell forever? Will the Catholics make it? How about the Baptists? What if someone isn't baptized? What about people like me, who struggle to understand or comprehend what I can't see?

Now Dave, do you take care of that Temple you live in? Or do you sin just a "little bit"? Maybe just a cuss word once in a while? Eat a little too much, or maybe a lot, like a great majority of people in Religion today?

What about someone who's divorced? Someone who isn't faithful to Church? Women who cut their hair? Where makeup?...................

Where is the line of God's mercy? I do know this, I have found great peace in being merciful to the people I used to condemn and call, sinners. I have also found that Religion can become the darkest form of manipulation on Earth, as Spectral Evidence is used as fact, and is the Evidence no one can prove.
:bored

[NotforSale]

I will admit that Jesus is the truth and you are not.

Jesus is the Truth? Please explain.

Too bad you've never met Jesus. The only Jesus you know is the Jesus written about in the Textus Receptus, written in the dialect of Rome, Greek.

Jesus is the truth of the Roman tongue, where the Catholic Church was born. And, Erasmus, who was responsible for the translation of the Textus Receptus, was a Roman Catholic.

[NotforSale]

:bored

Just what I thought!!! You are AFRAID to tackle the monster of the Afterlife, proving, YOU DON'T KNOW!!

[n david]

Just what I thought!!! You are AFRAID to tackle the monster of the Afterlife, proving, YOU DON'T KNOW!!
HA! No, just tired of your same dumb arguments. You're like a cow regurgitating its cud over and over again.

I've already stated what this is about. It's all about you and the gospel of you. No one is right, not Christians, not the Bible, not even Jesus Christ Himself. You have made yourself into a perverted twist of "truth."

In the end we all die, and then comes the judgement.

What will be your excuse, when your "truth" is found to be a lie.

[Timmy]

HA! No, just tired of your same dumb arguments. You're like a cow regurgitating its cud over and over again.

I've already stated what this is about. It's all about you and the gospel of you. No one is right, not Christians, not the Bible, not even Jesus Christ Himself. You have made yourself into a perverted twist of "truth."

In the end we all die, and then comes the judgement.

What will be your excuse, when your "truth" is found to be a lie.

If it is found to be a lie. I'm sure you meant "if".

[NotforSale]

Why does NFS keep trying to claim the OT says nothing of an "after-life"?

He even says it's not in the Torah, or is, but just barely.

Here's a quote from God Himself:

"I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"

Three dead men (but actually still alive in the presence of God) by the time God said this to Moses, which Jesus used from the Torah to prove the resurrection and an after-life to the Sadducees, who said the Torah doesn't teach a resurrection and an after-life.

NFS, Jesus refuted your comments 1,980 some years ago.

God didn't write the above statement; (they believe) Moses did. Also, the New and Old Testaments are worlds apart regarding the Afterlife.

Where is Eternal Damnation in the Old Testament? Where are streets of gold, walls of jasper, and the crystal sea?

The Bible was written by men, and if we believe that Moses, David, and Solomon wrote books of the Bible, there were polygamists, murderers, and adulterers, and God's signature is not on any of the Documents. If we continue to believe that God wrote Scripture, we are lying to ourselves.

You know, VS, if you spend enough time going through Scripture to find and create your idea, you can do it. That's because Religion is the Face of Man, and that's what the Bible is. It will speak to you at every corner of your life, including the corners of Religious Bondage.

IMO, you know what "narrow is the way that leadeth unto life", means; people who leave the Religion who has snared them, are a people on a very lonely journey where the truth has overcome the myths they once trusted in.

The Broad way is Religion, and even Jesus embarked on this lonely journey, away from the Traditions of Men and into lives of broken and sick people, where reality existed.

[NotforSale]

HA! No, just tired of your same dumb arguments. You're like a cow regurgitating its cud over and over again.

I've already stated what this is about. It's all about you and the gospel of you. No one is right, not Christians, not the Bible, not even Jesus Christ Himself. You have made yourself into a perverted twist of "truth."

In the end we all die, and then comes the judgement.

What will be your excuse, when your "truth" is found to be a lie.

And what will be your excuse if your truth is found to be a lie? I can stand in front of God in honesty, I that's what I believe God expects of me.

If you can't conclude who goes where, you have no business telling anyone what happens to them when they die.

[Timmy]

And what will be your excuse if your truth is found to be a lie? I can stand in front of God in honesty, I that's what I believe God expects of me.

If you can't conclude who goes where, you have no business telling anyone what happens to them when they die.

That reminds me: Steve Epley couldn't tell me where my grandmother went when she died. A trinitarian! I kid you not.

Or should I say "wouldn't"? :heeheehee

[NotforSale]

They will be forced to read every forum post where they smugly asserted that something was the truth, while the people on the other side :laffatu

(This will be extra embarrassing for me, as I have posts in many forums, on every possible part of the spectrum)

:thumbsup

[NotforSale]

That reminds me: Steve Epley couldn't tell me where my grandmother went when she died. A trinitarian! I kid you not.

Or should I say "wouldn't"? :heeheehee

OH MY, Timmy, that's a no-brainer if she was a Trintarian!! :toofunny

[LadyRev]

There are lots of questions for which there is no answer or tangible proof. However, the lack of an answer or tangible proof does not create a falsehood.

Also, an acceptable answer or acceptable proof may not be the same from one person to the next.

Everyone, each individual, must choose for themselves what to believe or not to believe, what to follow or not to follow, what to accept or not to accept.

I would suggest that if you truly don't believe there is an "afterlife" then live your life here and now to the fullest and hope you are right in your decision. If you are right, then you have nothing to worry about. If you are wrong, well, too bad for you.

Everyone possesses that powerful thing called "a free will".

[NotforSale]

There are lots of questions for which there is no answer or tangible proof. However, the lack of an answer or tangible proof does not create a falsehood.

Also, an acceptable answer or acceptable proof may not be the same from one person to the next.

Everyone, each individual, must choose for themselves what to believe or not to believe, what to follow or not to follow, what to accept or not to accept.

I would suggest that if you truly don't believe there is an "afterlife" then live your life here and now to the fullest and hope you are right in your decision. If you are right, then you have nothing to worry about. If you are wrong, well, too bad for you.

Everyone possesses that powerful thing called "a free will".

First, I never said there wasn't an Afterlife; I don't know if there is, and neither do you.

Second, you are throwing out the Religious dogma bone again; "If you are wrong, well, too bad for you." This is a self justification statement, labeling yourself as better than everyone who doesn't see things the way you do.

What makes you think you are better than a man or woman who has taken a different path than you?

[ILG]

There are lots of questions for which there is no answer or tangible proof. However, the lack of an answer or tangible proof does not create a falsehood.

Also, an acceptable answer or acceptable proof may not be the same from one person to the next.

Everyone, each individual, must choose for themselves what to believe or not to believe, what to follow or not to follow, what to accept or not to accept.

I would suggest that if you truly don't believe there is an "afterlife" then live your life here and now to the fullest and hope you are right in your decision. If you are right, then you have nothing to worry about. If you are wrong, well, too bad for you.

Everyone possesses that powerful thing called "a free will".

Can anyone really live their life to the fullest if they are in denial of any kind of truth that they are rejecting? (I mean any.)

[LadyRev]

First, I never said there wasn't an Afterlife; I don't know if there is, and neither do you.

Second, you are throwing out the Religious dogma bone again; "If you are wrong, well, too bad for you." This is a self justification statement, labeling yourself as better than everyone who doesn't see things the way you do.

What makes you think you are better than a man or woman who has taken a different path than you?

I didn't say I was better than anyone else.

But apparently you seem to think you are better than everyone else since you continue to tell people what they "don't know".

You also continue to do the very thing you accuse everyone else of doing. You throw out "dogma" bones, justify your own self and label yourself as the guy that has it all figured out. With the exception of this ONE question and title of this thread of course.

[NotforSale]

I didn't say I was better than anyone else.

But apparently you seem to think you are better than everyone else since you continue to tell people what they "don't know".

You also continue to do the very thing you accuse everyone else of doing. You throw out "dogma" bones, justify your own self and label yourself as the guy that has it all figured out. With the exception of this ONE question and title of this thread of course.

Oh, yes, you did! You said, too bad for me if I don't go to the place you "THINK" you're going. You didn't say, too bad for yourself, just me.

:naughty

I'm only telling you and others what they don't know, because they don't. That is the fact, not a lie. I could take any Book in Religion that talks about an Afterlife and say the same thing; they don't know.

Now, if you have met with the dead, and Spectral Evidence is not used, I'm all ears. I'm not justifying myself, I'm only seeking the truth, something you are avoiding.

[Timmy]

OH MY, Timmy, that's a no-brainer if she was a Trintarian!! :toofunny

One would think so, wouldn't one! :lol

[LadyRev]

Oh, yes, you did! You said, too bad for me if I don't go to the place you "THINK" you're going. You didn't say, too bad for yourself, just me.

:naughty

I'm only telling you and others what they don't know, because they don't. That is the fact, not a lie. I could take any Book in Religion that talks about an Afterlife and say the same thing; they don't know.

Now, if you have met with the dead, and Spectral Evidence is not used, I'm all ears. I'm not justifying myself, I'm only seeking the truth, something you are avoiding.

Ah but I didn't even mention a "place". That's an assumption on your part. You are "assuming" what I "think". But truth is, you do not KNOW what I think.

Again, as individuals, we all choose what to believe or not believe, what to follow or not to follow, what to accept or not accept. We all have to live with our "free will" choices, whatever we believe the results may be. This is true for everyone whether they believe in God or not.

Defy the law of gravity just because you can't see it, suffer the consequences. The law remains true no matter what anyone "thinks". Plain and simple.

Truth is, I don't need any "book", religious or otherwise, to tell me what is true. We make decisions every day as to what we believe to be true without any "books".

You keep "splitting hairs" and flaunting your so called knowledge but what you fail to admit is that what YOU believe to be truth, what you think you know, has no impact on me or anyone else.

I KNOW the earth rotates on its axis not because I (or anyone else) have personally seen it but because I have CHOSEN to believe it and accept it as fact. That's MY CHOICE.

Same goes for anything that I "know" about God. I don't have to have a book, I simply make a choice and for me personally, it is knowledge because I have accepted it as such.

No one can change that knowledge except me. If I so choose. And I don't have to answer to you or anyone else, unless of course you believe the scripture that says something about "giving an answer to every man..."

[jfrog]

Oh, yes, you did! You said, too bad for me if I don't go to the place you "THINK" you're going. You didn't say, too bad for yourself, just me.

:naughty

I'm only telling you and others what they don't know, because they don't. That is the fact, not a lie. I could take any Book in Religion that talks about an Afterlife and say the same thing; they don't know.

Now, if you have met with the dead, and Spectral Evidence is not used, I'm all ears. I'm not justifying myself, I'm only seeking the truth, something you are avoiding.

Do you know anything?

[LadyRev]

Can anyone really live their life to the fullest if they are in denial of any kind of truth that they are rejecting? (I mean any.)

I guess that would depend on the individual and how they define a " full life ".

[ILG]

I guess that would depend on the individual and how they define a " full life ".

I just thought the statement you made seemed odd. You said "live your life to the fullest"....so what did that mean in the context you used it in?

[votivesoul]

Do you know anything?

Exactly!

Apparently, nothing of any real consequence, if it isn't perceived empirically by the five senses, is knowable. And even that is suspect.

And yet, the man says He can stand before a God he has never seen, never heard, never felt, or experienced empirically, and be honest with Him about not knowing anything or any truth as contained in the Bible because that's what the God he can't see, hear, or know in any real, true way wants and even expects of him.

But anyone else who DARES claim to have a justified belief based upon a tangible experience with the same God through the Risen Christ is in bondage and despair of religion, as if that same God just doesn't know how to properly communicate and reveal both Himself and His will to HIS OWN CREATION!

Get a grip, man. You're losing your hold on reality.

[KeptByTheWord]

A dead seed doesn't grow into anything. A seed that is alive, does. Just like the seed of a man, dead sperm won't produce anything. Just ask a couple who can't have children.

The question is, what happens to dead humans, not living ones. There is no possible way you know what happens because you have not seen, or been too, the "Other Side".

You can keep referring to what other people have said in the Scriptures, but that doesn't prove anything because countless Books in other Faith's proclaim that they know.

If we can't meet with the dead, it will be a mystery until we die, and guessing will be the closest we get to understanding the truth about the Afterlife.

I agree with you in one sense. WE DON'T KNOW exactly what happens to us when we die. I personally believe, that faith in Christ will allow me to live with Him eternally.... but you are right... we can't and don't know for sure.... We can believe, but we haven't yet experienced death, grave, and afterlife for ourselves.... so we are left with faith.

And, what everyone has posted on here in regards to your comments, has been that their FAITH is what allows them to live this life believing that the next life will be what our FAITH deems it will be.

Do you have faith? Do you believe in things that you cannot see, touch, feel, hear, or smell? I would assume that if you believe in Jesus Christ, that you must have faith.

It is our faith that is trusting in things we cannot see that allows us to have hope in this life, and in the life to come. Just as a seed bears within itself life that may not be tangible, or be seen on the outside, there is resident life within that seed that does bring forth new life upon its apparent death, and burial in the ground, and it brings forth new life.

So... my faith in God is found even as the parable of the seed.... I may not be able to see that eternal life in my life today.. but it is there waiting to resurrect into something new and more wonderful than what I am today when I die... and that is my FAITH.

So, the question that I ask you.... do you have faith?

[ILG]

I agree with you in one sense. WE DON'T KNOW exactly what happens to us when we die. I personally believe, that faith in Christ will allow me to live with Him eternally.... but you are right... we can't and don't know for sure.... We can believe, but we haven't yet experienced death, grave, and afterlife for ourselves.... so we are left with faith.


I agree with this. Belief in the afterlife is based on faith. I believe there is an afterlife, but I can't prove it and I don't KNOW it.

[LadyRev]

I just thought the statement you made seemed odd. You said "live your life to the fullest"....so what did that mean in the context you used it in?

Why would it seem odd? If a person doesn't believe in an afterlife then this life is all they got so I would think they would want to make the very best of it. Since "living life to the fullest" is subjective, there is no way to know what will make each person's life "full".

Personally, I don't believe a full life is truly possible without God and the hope of an afterlife. But thats my opinion.

[LadyRev]

Exactly!

Apparently, nothing of any real consequence, if it isn't perceived empirically by the five senses, is knowable. And even that is suspect.

And yet, the man says He can stand before a God he has never seen, never heard, never felt, or experienced empirically, and be honest with Him about not knowing anything or any truth as contained in the Bible because that's what the God he can't see, hear, or know in any real, true way wants and even expects of him.

But anyone else who DARES claim to have a justified belief based upon a tangible experience with the same God through the Risen Christ is in bondage and despair of religion, as if that same God just doesn't know how to properly communicate and reveal both Himself and His will to HIS OWN CREATION!

Get a grip, man. You're losing your hold on reality.

:thumbsup

[LadyRev]

I agree with this. Belief in the afterlife is based on faith. I believe there is an afterlife, but I can't prove it and I don't KNOW it.


•A belief is the subjective requirement for knowledge.

•“Knowledge” is defined as “justified true belief.”
In order to “know,” we have our emotions, reason, perception and knowledge. There will be knowledge as long as there is a justifiable truth and belief.

•In other words, a belief can be considered knowledge as long as it is a justified truth.

•As long as a particular belief is justified, it is considered to be knowledge.

I KNOW there is an afterlife because my belief is a "justified true belief." I don't have to PROVE it. In fact, I'd be wasting my time to try. All I can do is share my "justified true beliefs" on the matter and then the rest is up to the recipient of my message.

As for me, I made up my mind on this topic long ago. I could change my mind, I have that choice but that doesn't change the fact that at this time, I KNOW what I believe and because its justifiable, for me it is more than just a belief, it has become knowledge.

[ILG]

Why would it seem odd? If a person doesn't believe in an afterlife then this life is all they got so I would think they would want to make the very best of it. Since "living life to the fullest" is subjective, there is no way to know what will make each person's life "full".

Personally, I don't believe a full life is truly possible without God and the hope of an afterlife. But thats my opinion.

I think we all want to make the best of it, regardless.

[ILG]

•A belief is the subjective requirement for knowledge.

Many scientific theories were philosophy before it they were proven. But before they were proven it was philosophy and not science.

•“Knowledge” is defined as “justified true belief.”
In order to “know,” we have our emotions, reason, perception and knowledge. There will be knowledge as long as there is a justifiable truth and belief.

With your reasoning, anything is provable just because you believe it. That's downright scary.

•In other words, a belief can be considered knowledge as long as it is a justified truth.


•As long as a particular belief is justified, it is considered to be knowledge.

These are ideas that can make you crazy if you get into some wacky belief. How do you determine if someone's beliefs are off the deep end if you equate belief with proof?

I KNOW there is an afterlife because my belief is a "justified true belief." I don't have to PROVE it. In fact, I'd be wasting my time to try. All I can do is share my "justified true beliefs" on the matter and then the rest is up to the recipient of my message.

The rest is up to the recipient of your message to what? Agree or disagree with your "justified true belief"? I believe there is an afterlife but I don't KNOW it, just as science has believed in certain philosophies before they were provable. But they were philosophies at that time and NOT science. There is a difference between BELIEF and PROOF.


As for me, I made up my mind on this topic long ago. I could change my mind, I have that choice but that doesn't change the fact that at this time, I KNOW what I believe and because its justifiable, for me it is more than just a belief, it has become knowledge.

Scary. Lots of people can justify their beliefs. That doesn't make it knowledge. It is still a belief.

[LadyRev]

Many scientific theories were philosophy before it they were proven. But before they were proven it was philosophy and not science.



With your reasoning, anything is provable just because you believe it. That's downright scary.



These are ideas that can make you crazy if you get into some wacky belief. How do you determine if someone's beliefs are off the deep end if you equate belief with proof?



The rest is up to the recipient of your message to what? Agree or disagree with your "justified true belief"? I believe there is an afterlife but I don't KNOW it, just as science has believed in certain philosophies before they were provable. But they were philosophies at that time and NOT science. There is a difference between BELIEF and PROOF.




Scary. Lots of people can justify their beliefs. That doesn't make it knowledge. It is still a belief.

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

[NotforSale]

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

Which means you believe in a lie. A more reasonable response would be, "We don't know what the moon is made of." Which simply means you don't have "The Answer."

The Afterlife is no different, and in fact is more of an assumption, as the moon can be seen by the human eye from Earth, from every Generation. It's interesting that the subject of the Universe has come up, as my wife and I were talking about that last night.

Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.

And, what happens when we explore and uncover the mysteries of the Universe? Myths are revealed, truth becomes relevant, and 1 open door leads to a million more to open.

The idea that man can "Know" what happens when we die, but can't even penetrate a minute fraction of space and the beyond, is really quite hilarious! I think G-d might be giving us all the signals we need to understand, we know very little about anything.

[ILG]

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

Okay, you have absolutely proven my point. You believe that anything you believe is factual to you. In other words, you seem to be saying that your belief is your reality. I think that is a lie. You can't believe something into being or people would believe their loved ones healthy and back to life all the time. But reality is harsh and hard and doesn't work that way.

What you are espousing is truly scary. You are apparently saying that fact has no basis, reality has no basis. Whatever you believe is FACT. I think that is a dangerous belief that has no basis in reality. Sad.

[KeptByTheWord]

I remember when I went to school, that Pluto was the last known planet found in our universe, and I remember being taught and graded on the solar system, and grades were established on whether you could name all the planets in our solar system. For at that time, all the knowledge we had was that Pluto was the farthest planet in our solar system. Since then, there have been more planets that have been discovered within our solar system, which changes the knowledge that I "thought" I had back in my school days.

So... I would think it is safe to say that we are always learning, and that while we may think we know something FOR SURE... upon what is that based? For instance... the law of gravity has not been known to change in my world, at least... BUT if we consider the account that Jesus rose from the grave, and ascended into the air, then we have to understand that at some point, the law of gravity was broken, and changed.

It comes to a point where you have to admit that you know very little, if nothing at all, when you consider the scope of this universe, and the universes beyond this one, and the Creator who designed it all! Upon that realization, you must acknowledge that your faith is all you have. Faith is that which we can't see, know, or understand, and in which we place our trust in regardless of the lack of fact that we may have.... knowing that someday we will have a better understanding of eternity than what we have now... this is seeing through a glass darkly that Paul spoke of....

[ILG]

We also need to change our beliefs, if we are faced with facts that differ from our beliefs.

[Timmy]

We also need to change our beliefs, if we are faced with facts that differ from our beliefs.

Yes. I know that's right! :) Of course, the problem is that things that people "know" because they were told they had to, without seeing (as Jesus said to Thomas), are exempt.

Perfect example: young-earth creationism. There is abundant evidence that the earth is more than 4 billion years old. There is abundant evidence that the universe is over 13 billion years old. Doesn't matter. There's a timeline in the Bible, and that must be believed.

[ILG]

Yes. I know that's right! :) Of course, the problem is that things that people "know" because they were told they had to, without seeing (as Jesus said to Thomas), are exempt.

Perfect example: young-earth creationism. There is abundant evidence that the earth is more than 4 billion years old. There is abundant evidence that the universe is over 13 billion years old. Doesn't matter. There's a timeline in the Bible, and that must be believed.

Yes, that's true. Amazingly, my very conservative, original UPC pastor never taught young earth creationism. “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth … .” (Genesis 1:28a, KJV) He taught that there was something before people, and they were dinosaurs.

[jfrog]

Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similiar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you ;)

[votivesoul]

Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.

So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.

I wonder "where" that "place" is and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???

[votivesoul]

Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.

So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.

I wonder "where" that "place" is, that God exists apart from and above His creation, and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???

[ILG]

Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similiar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you ;)

You make some really good points, but still, some things are provable. The afterlife is not one of them. That's what NFS is trying to say.

[jfrog]

You make some really good points, but still, some things are provable. The afterlife is not one of them. That's what NFS is trying to say.

Well if course it's not. But you have to realize that in the context that most everyday truths we take for granted are not provable either.

[ILG]

Well if course it's not. But you have to realize that in the context that most everyday truths we take for granted are not provable either.

I think the difference is that we have been told repeatedly that you are going to hell if you do this and heaven if you do that when no one even knows for sure there is a heaven, particularly, as NFS says, the Jews didn't even make the afterlife a focal point. My issue is not the afterlife so much, but I see what NFS is trying to say. End of story is that people shouldn't hold heaven/hell over people's heads and use it as a beating stick. I have seen that a lot in my life. Way too much, in fact.

[Aquila]

I think the difference is that we have been told repeatedly that you are going to hell if you do this and heaven if you do that when no one even knows for sure there is a heaven, particularly, as NFS says, the Jews didn't even make the afterlife a focal point. My issue is not the afterlife so much, but I see what NFS is trying to say. End of story is that people shouldn't hold heaven/hell over people's heads and use it as a beating stick. I have seen that a lot in my life. Way too much, in fact.

We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.

[ILG]

We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.

Well, I'll let NSF argue his own points on that. The bottom line is the afterlife is a belief, not a fact.

[Sean]

Yes, we will all have to see for ourselves when that day comes....

[Timmy]

Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similiar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you ;)

But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ;)) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.

We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.

But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.

OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.

Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.

Well, I don't. But "believers" do.

[NotforSale]

But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ;)) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.

We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.

But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.

OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.

Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.

Well, I don't. But "believers" do.

:hanky

[NotforSale]

Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you ;)

Others have cleared the air on this post, jfrog, but I will say this; you can prove your wife is cheating on you, but you can't prove the Afterlife. Whether your wife is ever found guilty might be one thing, but we have proven today with DNA testing, we can set free the falsely condemned, and put the real criminal behind bars, and that includes sexual crimes.

The Afterlife, though, there is no way to confirm it's real unless we yield to Spectral Evidence, which Courts don't use because of what happened in the Salem Witch Trials. And, adultery has been around since the beginning and is found clearly in the Bible (New and Old Testaments), and we have observed the devastating consequences of adultery in our own lifetime.

The Afterlife and Adultery; not even close in comparison.

[Timmy]

:hanky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[NotforSale]

We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.

Aquila, but you know as well as I do, the Afterlife is not an Old Testament Doctrine like today. They talked about it, mention it, debate it, (outside of Scripture and the Torah) but no where can you find Eternal Damnation/Torture in any Jewish teachings, and Gehenna was considered a 12 month punishment for evildoers, (for the Jews who believe in an Afterlife), not burning in fire and brimstone forever.

You also cannot find Heaven as a place of streets of gold, walls of jasper, mansions, etc. These are New Testament teachings that the Jews do not uphold, and we all know, the Jews do not accept the New Testament as sacred or holy Doctrine.

The continuity of the New and Old Testaments is very poor, and are clearly worlds apart from modern Christianity and the teachings we deem as truth. Men put them together, not G-d, and we must see the difference if we are to make honest conclusions about our Religion/Faith, especially regarding the Afterlife.

[NotforSale]

So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.

I wonder "where" that "place" is, that God exists apart from and above His creation, and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???

Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!

G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.

I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".

Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.

This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.

And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.

No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!

[crakjak]

Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!

G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.

I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".

Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.

This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.

And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.

No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!

Just such thoughts help direct me to search out and find that accordingly to scripture God's purpose is to redeem all His creation, "the good the bad, and the ugly." The ultimate reconciliation of all humans to God and to each other is the only conclusion that answers all the questions and does not blaspheme the character of the Eternal. And is faithful to the Spirit of the scriptures.

[jfrog]

But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ;)) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.

We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.

But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.

OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.

Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.

Well, I don't. But "believers" do.

Just because something works many repeatable times does not mean it will necessarily work the next time. However with this said, I have no problem dropping the requirement of absolute proof from knowledge and saying that in order for something to be knowledge it simply must be a very repeatable experience. This is the basis of our world and most of the knowledge we have.

However there is another kind of knowledge too. Historical knowledge. In historical knowledge we take the word of an authority, either someone that was there or extensively studied the subject. This kind of knowledge more than any other requires faith in the authority. In fact, the knowledge of the afterlife would most closely be tied in with this kind of knowledge.

Christians trust Jesus and books written by people close to Jesus and they believe that Jesus said that there was a heaven and a hell. Jesus is there authority, just like my history teacher and books written by other history teachers form the basis of my historical knowledge. In historical knowledge it is all about having faith in others and taking their words for something that we are never going to get to experience first hand.

Belief in an afterlife is alot like believing that an English King was excommunicated from the catholic church. We weren't there to see it happen. We will never experience that first hand. But, we still believe it is true. Why?

[votivesoul]

Good question! I don't have the answer. Your question is the reason there are a million opinions about something we are not sure of. We speculate, presume, and even hope, but the fact remains, if you or I believe in a Creator, that Being is beyond anything we can imagine or believe!

G-d did give me a Family, so I try to conclude my ideals from that. The Family was before the Bible, Religion, Politics, and other distractions. In the rawest form, the Family is tied together with genetics, blood, and character. We can observe every facet of life through our Families; love, failure, discipline, success, maturity, these and more tie us directly to "REALITY" and to each other.

I call every Family, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Just go to a Family Reunion like mine. We have prison bums, divorcees, thieves, business owners, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Pentecostals, alcoholics, women, children, and the list goes on. For the most part, we pretty much accept each other for who we are. We help each other, pray for each other, and we always try to call around to make sure everyone is doing "OK".

Eternity doesn't fit in this mix, at least the Christian Eternity I found in Religion. If I believe the Doctrine I was taught as a young convert, I'm the only one going to Heaven in my Family, because I am (was) the only 3 stepper.

This whole issue is not only confusing, but is a dark form isolating people with ideas that break the Family apart, while stepping on the weak with false judgment and condemnation that does not conform to Nature or attributes necessary to raise humans in World that isn't perfect.

And let me say this in conclusion; as a Father who loves my children unconditionally, I could NEVER cast my children or other Family members into a place like Hell, no matter how bad they failed or sinned. I know that people are pathetic, including me, and my Faith is resting upon the idea that I am a small part of a Great Creator who passed down very special genetics, and a heart that sees beyond the failure of Humans who just can't get it together.

No wonder no one goes to Hell at a Funeral. All of the Family is there!!!!

See, I can take you at your word and understand you better with the above comments. I have no reason to doubt or question your expressed, sincerely held beliefs as stated above.

But re-read the sum of your comments in this post as unbiased as you can and contrast them to the ones you made above. You're coming off as a completely different person from the rest of the post.

You've taken a completely personal development and projected it onto everyone else that still holds the the faith you say you once erroneously embraced. You accuse everyone of hurting their loved ones by believing what we believe because YOU hurt YOUR loved ones by believing what you used to believe.

In this post, you've made terrible assumption after terrible assumption and accused all of us religious believers as deceived, manipulative, hurtful, menacing, judgmental fear-mongers dependent only on what you call spectral evidence in order to believe in an after-life when the fact is:

You are only describing the man you admit you used to be. Stop spitting out the past garbage on your own soul onto everyone else! You assume that all religious people currently ARE how you used to be, and you have no proof!

That's my issue. Had you simply said from the very beginning what you said above, I would have never replied to you or interacted with this post at all.

I hope you can see this for what it is and is not: not an attack, not a disparaging of your person, or even any sort of antagonistic reply. It is only this: a rebuttal for how wrongly and selfishly (through psychological projection) you've gone on the offensive against nearly everyone in this post who doesn't agree with you.

No animosity is intended and hopefully not received. But I hope you can see past yourself a moment and realize what you did in this post to what I can only think are pretty decent people who I've had the pleasure to interact with here at AFF.

Disagree with anyone at your leisure. Even tenaciously hold to your view as you see fit. But enough with the ad hominem assaults on any and every religious person who believes in the Bible and an after-life as promised by the Bible. It's just not kosher. It is beneath you.

[mfblume]

What will happen to people when they die? Not one person here, there, or anywhere can answer this question. You can say until you're blue in the face that you know, but you don't.

Every Religion claims to know, and the Afterlife has become the Benchmark of manipulation within these Religions to control people with ideas that cannot be proven.

Over the Millenniums of time, we have watched this process evolve from not knowing, to knowing, yet nothing has really changed accept Religion. And Religion has learned, when there are no more chips left on the table, there is one left no one can see but them, called, the Afterlife.

It's Religions Ace in the Hole! The Grand Finale! The Last Straw! The Perfect Ploy to control the Weak with Fear! It's The Feast and Table Spread of the Superstitious!
Anything true and of God requires FAITH in us, which means there is no visible evidence and we trust it is correct.

Can't avoid that element if we want to know God. He just MADE it that way.

[crakjak]

We all live our lives with some sort of faith in the unseen, we all process information differently therefore the definition of our unseen is different than another's.

So, don't be so critical of others faith, your new founded belief also is based on faith in what you NOW believe.

Loss of fear of the unseen, in my opinion, is the greatest of faith. Faith that the majesty of the cosmos was by design, including good and evil on this earth. Faith that the Eternal, with such ability as is displayed in the physical world hasn't lost His ability to complete what is in motion. I desire to know "Him" as He really is, therefore I continue to seek, critical of human forced interpretations.

The use of the tradition view of hell is the worst of all human manipulations, which instills fear of the Eternal, and is, in fact blasphemy against the Creator.

"Perfect love casts out fear...." yet religion capitalizes on fear, and that is just wrong.

Bump

[NotforSale]

Anything true and of God requires FAITH in us, which means there is no visible evidence and we trust it is correct.

Can't avoid that element if we want to know God. He just MADE it that way.

Perfect recipe for a Cult, where they bow to lies and the control of those who "Think" they know, but they don't!

[Timmy]

Just because something works many repeatable times does not mean it will necessarily work the next time. However with this said, I have no problem dropping the requirement of absolute proof from knowledge and saying that in order for something to be knowledge it simply must be a very repeatable experience. This is the basis of our world and most of the knowledge we have.

However there is another kind of knowledge too. Historical knowledge. In historical knowledge we take the word of an authority, either someone that was there or extensively studied the subject. This kind of knowledge more than any other requires faith in the authority. In fact, the knowledge of the afterlife would most closely be tied in with this kind of knowledge.

Christians trust Jesus and books written by people close to Jesus and they believe that Jesus said that there was a heaven and a hell. Jesus is there authority, just like my history teacher and books written by other history teachers form the basis of my historical knowledge. In historical knowledge it is all about having faith in others and taking their words for something that we are never going to get to experience first hand.

Belief in an afterlife is alot like believing that an English King was excommunicated from the catholic church. We weren't there to see it happen. We will never experience that first hand. But, we still believe it is true. Why?

Yes, you make some good points. However, the very nature of an afterlife is very different from that of an excommunication or a presidential election or an assassination or an earthquake. An afterlife can only be "known" by hearing or reading accounts of it by people who themselves claimed to have experienced it (which cannot be corroborated by anyone else) or who claim to have gotten a revelation from some kind of supernatural source. Both cases can be accepted by others or rejected by others.

But once you accept that there can be supernatural means of "knowing" things, you have a predicament: which claims do you believe? I submit that you have no basis for choosing, other than personal preference. Either that, or you must claim supernatural ability yourself, which Christians do -- they "have the Holy Spirit" to guide them in the truth. And it never seems to bother them much that the Holy Spirit apparently guides different people into very different truths. Oh well, it's a mere trifle, I'm sure. ;)

[mfblume]

Perfect recipe for a Cult, where they bow to lies and the control of those who "Think" they know, but they don't!

So, you are saying the bible is simply cult-based and breed nothing better than cults, and nothing more?

Do you have FAITH in what someone says to you when they present no evidence? Do you trust anyone? If so, ....CULTIST! lol

[NotforSale]

So, you are saying the bible is simply cult-based and breed nothing better than cults, and nothing more?

Do you have FAITH in what someone says to you when they present no evidence? Do you trust anyone? If so, ....CULTIST! lol

Did I say that?

[mfblume]

Did I say that?

I am asking you if you do that?

To say that a demand for faith is cult-bait, then the question remains, is there not genuine faith to be had from the bible even when it requires faith?

[Timmy]

So, you are saying the bible is simply cult-based and breed nothing better than cults, and nothing more?

Do you have FAITH in what someone says to you when they present no evidence? Do you trust anyone? If so, ....CULTIST! lol

The alternative is that there is one and only one correct view of what the Bible instructs you to believe. And in your case, that would be your view, and everyone else is wrong.

But why are there so many people who are wrong about the Bible? Why is it apparently so easy to get it wrong? I, for one, believe that God would have done a better job of it, if he really did want everyone to be saved. (And assuming there is something to be saved from. ;))

[mfblume]

The alternative is that there is one and only one correct view of what the Bible instructs you to believe. And in your case, that would be your view, and everyone else is wrong.


Not so quick, T.

Because one view is correct, by pure logic, then one ought to always pray that God correct oneself. Deception is when we think we are right and we are not. That can be dealt with by this sincere prayer.

And then.... have FAITH that God will answer. :)


But why are there so many people who are wrong about the Bible? Why is it apparently so easy to get it wrong? I, for one, believe that God would have done a better job of it, if he really did want everyone to be saved. (And assuming there is something to be saved from. ;))

Think about what I just said above.

[NotforSale]

I am asking you if you do that?

To say that a demand for faith is cult-bait, then the question remains, is there not genuine faith to be had from the bible even when it requires faith?

:bored :bored

[mfblume]

:bored :bored

Well?

your implication about needing faith means that you will not have faith in anything anyone says without proof. Your wife says she went to the store and paid a bill... you refuse to believe unless you see the receipt. If not, then do not paint everyone all faith with the same cult brush. lol

[mfblume]

Whether one accepts it or not, it is ridiculous to say that faith is a bad thing. Without faith, try have a good relationship WITH ANYONE.

[Timmy]

Not so quick, T.

Because one view is correct, by pure logic, then one ought to always pray that God correct oneself. Deception is when we think we are right and we are not. That can be dealt with by this sincere prayer.

And then.... have FAITH that God will answer. :)



Think about what I just said above.

Sure, you could be right. You, I presume, have made that sincere prayer, and you can therefore be certain that you are right. Others who claim to have made that sincere prayer, but got a different result, are obviously lying about that prayer.

Right?

[Timmy]

Whether one accepts it or not, it is ridiculous to say that faith is a bad thing. Without faith, try have a good relationship WITH ANYONE.

True. I have faith in people and things that I know. More faith in some than in others, based on experience.

[mfblume]

Sure, you could be right. You, I presume, have made that sincere prayer, and you can therefore be certain that you are right. Others who claim to have made that sincere prayer, but got a different result, are obviously lying about that prayer.

Right?

No. I always make this prayer. Every day, every month and year. And continue to maintain as honest a desire for God to answer this as I can. So, I am always in a state of FAITH. In other words, I have no evidence that I am in the right way, and always maintain that attitude and cling to God by it. If you do not follow this thought carefully, your faith is no longer faith.

[Timmy]

No. I always make this prayer. Every day, every month and year. And continue to maintain as honest a desire for God to answer this as I can. So, I am always in a state of FAITH. In other words, I have no evidence that I am in the right way, and always maintain that attitude and cling to God by it. If you do not follow this thought carefully, your faith is no loinger faith.

Are you even trying to make sense?

[mfblume]

When it's all said and done, the evidence that John provided is the answer.

1Jn 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Read the context to see.

[mfblume]

Are you even trying to make sense?

Read more carefully.

[mfblume]

Faith is not knowing for sure, but believing on the basis of trust. Proper grasp of faith makes one nonjudgmental. How could we judge if we are in constant state of faith-- knowing there is no physical evidence to prove we are right? It humbles us and keeps us in genuine dependence upon God. This is simply ABSENT when one does not really understand faith. The attitude you're trying to put on me and others is one that cannot exist in genuine faith.

[NotforSale]

Whether one accepts it or not, it is ridiculous to say that faith is a bad thing. Without faith, try have a good relationship WITH ANYONE.

I never said Faith is a bad thing. Lying to people, that is a bad thing.

Faith without works is dead. Faith does not live upon believing anything that anyone says or does, regardless if they have proof. Proof validates Faith and gives the believer certainty and truth.

Your kind of Faith is, believe me or else, without proof and regardless if I disagree with your idea.

[mfblume]

I never said Faith is a bad thing. Lying to people, that is a bad thing.

Faith without works is dead. Faith does not live upon believing anything that anyone says or does, regardless if they have proof. Proof validates Faith and gives the believer certainty and truth.

Your kind of Faith is, believe me or else, without proof and regardless if I disagree with your idea.

The very definition of faith involves absence of proof. What is your definition?

[NotforSale]

The very definition of faith involves absence of proof. What is your definition?

Mike, you'll take this in circles until you confuse everyone.

[Timmy]

When it's all said and done, the evidence that John provided is the answer.

1Jn 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Read the context to see.

That's evidence?! :blink

[mfblume]

That's evidence?! :blink

You consider "evidence" aside faith to be an oxymoron.

Do you agree with Hebrews 11:1?

[mfblume]

Maybe the question is if people understand what faith even means. lol

[Timmy]

And then.... have FAITH that God will answer. :)


Do you have faith that God will answer?

Did He answer?

[Timmy]

You consider "evidence" aside faith to be an oxymoron.

Do you agree with Hebrews 11:1?

Sure. It's a good, workable definition of faith, especially when you consider its implications:

1. "faith is the substance" And it is the only substance you will ever have for "things hoped for" in many cases. In other words, you will not receive what you hoped for. But, technically, faith isn't really substance. It's only imaginary substance.

2. "the evidence" Ditto. It is the only evidence, in many cases. Things you don't see may never actually be seen. If your faith in something unseen is the only evidence, then you can decide to have that kind of faith in literally anything! Heaven and hell, peace that passeth all understanding, leprechauns. Anything.

[mfblume]

Do you have faith that God will answer?

Did He answer?

You are not reading my words. Why try so hard to impose upon me the thing you want me to believe in order to satisfy your position, causing you to remain mistaken about it? lol

Read it again. It is a "walk" of faith. Not a single exertion of faith. A lifetime of the position of faith. When we leave that position, and we claim we have proof, then we are fallen from a walk and life of faith. In other words, I beleive I am right with God, at the same time believe that if I am mistaken --- which I could be -- God will continue to answer my p[ray to correct me. Maybe it's a correction process for my entire life, not required as much in others ... whatever.

Always being in a state of faith means you are always maintaining the attitude that God is answering, to put it more precisely. But you always never know without need of further proof. Always. It empties you of any self dependency more and more, if you or me or anyone really walks by it.

[mfblume]

Sure. It's a good, workable definition of faith, especially when you consider its implications:

1. "faith is the substance" And it is the only substance you will ever have for "things hoped for" in many cases. In other words, you will not receive what you hoped for. But, technically, faith isn't really substance. It's only imaginary substance.

2. "the evidence" Ditto. It is the only evidence, in many cases. Things you don't see may never actually be seen. If your faith in something unseen is the only evidence, then you can decide to have that kind of faith in literally anything! Heaven and hell, peace that passeth all understanding, leprechauns. Anything.

Who said you will never receive what you hoped for? Where is your "proof" for that? Have you llived your life, gone to the other side and back, and have a video tape of the results?

[mfblume]

...And yet some say, "You have no proof".

Ok. lol

[mfblume]

Mike, you'll take this in circles until you confuse everyone.

You mean you are not really sure of what faith is? Look it up and it will make sense. Get Websters.

[mfblume]

Your kind of Faith is, believe me or else, without proof and regardless if I disagree with your idea.

No, that is not my kind of faith. It is what the bible says to do in handling faith. That is not the definition of faith. The definition is trust in what someone says. The bible takes that and demands we have that and then says it is "or else," not me, nor it is MY kind.

Faith is not "believe me or else."

lol

Dictionaries help in these situations.

[Timmy]

Who said you will never receive what you hoped for? Where is your "proof" for that? Have you llived your life, gone to the other side and back, and have a video tape of the results?

I didn't say that. I said it doesn't always happen. Do you disagree?

I don't think I have to go "to the other side and back", nor do I have any obligation to provide you with video. I will simply give my testimony. Accept it or don't.

I trusted God. I believed in the promises. A sound mind. Fear cast out. Peace. Healing.

Sometimes I got these things, and sometimes not. My depression got progressively worse and worse, the more these promises were not kept. That's my view of it, at least. And of course, the ever helpful believers will, as they already have many times, offer advice such as "just keep holding on" and "keep trusting" etc. Yeah, well, when I commit suicide, can I stop holding on then? I was close.

Then I got out. When you stop believing things that aren't true, it helps. A lot.