Altering the need for the altar...

[agoodlife2live]

My question this week is:

What is "repentance”?

I recently heard a man preach that religion has perverted the true power of the cross, and the truth is that Christ has defeated sin “once and for all”.

Along with his exhortation of the one-time sacrifice of sin, he said, “repentance is to be done only once”. After that, you simply follow the Holy Ghost, and if you feel guilty doing something then simply “stop it”. Guilt comes only because you are not following in obedience to your Holy Ghost, and all it takes is obedience to correct the problem and remove the guilt.

In this message, he mentioned that he has "passed beyond the barrier of temptation", because he passed the tests, and "Just said No!”.
"Does repentance require anything more than the resolute mind, to be free from sin, or is it enough to just walk away and just stop-it"?

[votivesoul]

Repentance, by the Greek definition, is to rethink, reconsider, to analyze again, and etc.

If the Holy Spirit brings convictions upon a person for sinning, then the likelihood is that person, in the process of coming under conviction, took the time to rethink, reconsider, and analyze again their ways and what they were doing.

This suggests a life of continual repentance, not just a one and done deal.

[agoodlife2live]

Repentance, by the Greek definition, is to rethink, reconsider, to analyze again, and etc.

If the Holy Spirit brings convictions upon a person for sinning, then the likelihood is that person, in the process of coming under conviction, took the time to rethink, reconsider, and analyze again their ways and what they were doing.

This suggests a life of continual repentance, not just a one and done deal.

Thank you for your comment. I have not thought about it that way, but it makes sense to me :)

[Esther]

My question this week is:

What is "repentance”?

I recently heard a man preach that religion has perverted the true power of the cross, and the truth is that Christ has defeated sin “once and for all”.

Along with his exhortation of the one-time sacrifice of sin, he said, “repentance is to be done only once”. After that, you simply follow the Holy Ghost, and if you feel guilty doing something then simply “stop it”. Guilt comes only because you are not following in obedience to your Holy Ghost, and all it takes is obedience to correct the problem and remove the guilt.

In this message, he mentioned that he has "passed beyond the barrier of temptation", because he passed the tests, and "Just said No!”.
"Does repentance require anything more than the resolute mind, to be free from sin, or is it enough to just walk away and just stop-it"?

Basicaly repentance means about face. Or turn around and go the opposite way.

I think one country still uses that term when marching. They say repent, we say about face.

As to the message of only need to repent once is deceived. Every time you sin you need to repent.

[agoodlife2live]

Basicaly repentance means about face. Or turn around and go the opposite way.

I think one country still uses that term when marching. They say repent, we say about face.

As to the message of only need to repent once is deceived. Every time you sin you need to repent.

With the repentance is contrition and confession to God still required? or is turning around from sin with a made up mind enough?

[Esther]

With the repentance is contrition and confession to God still required? or is turning around from sin with a made up mind enough?

Needs both, IMO

[Esaias]

How can a person sin, and then repent, and NOT have felt contrition, and NOT have confessed it to God?

God dwells with the contrite heart - that means a heart under contrition.

The problem is, we have substituted emotional catharsis at an altar rail in place of genuine repentance. Thus, we have opened the door for new johnny-come-lately 'alternatives' to what we THOUGHT was 'old fashioned repentance'.

The confusion just rolls on, from one generation to the next. I think Hosea had something to say about that - 'because you have forsaken my law, I will forget your children'... or something like that...

[votivesoul]

There is something to be said of the words in Malachi 2:13,

13. And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

People want a clean conscience, but don't want what it takes to keep a clean conscience. They feel remorse and sorrow, but have no sense of the injustice against God for their sins, especially after they've walked in His light and partaken of the heavenly gift of His Spirit.

Repentance is supposed to, among other things, bring about zeal and vengeance.

[KeptByTheWord]

This topic of repentance, and altar calls reminds me of this verse in James,

James 1

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Repentance is not repentance if you simply recognize you have done wrong, but no action follows.

II Cor. 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

So, in essence, repentance is not repentance unless it is accompanied with action. If you feel sorrow, and remorse for your deeds, but do not take action to turn from them, you have not repented.

This is why "working up emotion" in an altar call setting many times is fruitless, because people come to the call, feel sorry, but take no further action, believing that all they need to do is feel sorry for their actions. If they are not taught that unless their sorrow is accompanied with action that brings about change in their life, then repentance will not have taken place. They essentially have beheld their face in the mirror, saw things they didn't like, but instead of allowing the spirit of the Lord to change them and cause them to TURN AWAY from their sins... they turn away from that mirror, and comfort themselves that as long as they felt sorry, repentance took place, when in fact.... repentance without ACTION is not repentance.

James 1:22-25 needs to be understood in much greater depth when the gospel is being presented, and altar calls are being presented.

When one comes face to face with a holy God, recognizing, acknowledging, and repenting of the depth of sin present in one's life, it is only then, with this realization that the Lord can allow His spirit to truly reside in that heart, and bring about the change that needs to take place.

[agoodlife2live]

So, repentance (e.g. change of mind), followed by the right actions, to "go and sin no more", is enough. No real need for an altar, no need for the grace of God, no need for mercy. But now I can just simply sin until I feel really guilty, then I simply stop sinning, and live as if I never sinned at all. To me this sounds like “self-justification” - Considering that “justification” of sins through the blood means, 'God sees that person clean, just as if they never sinned'.

My question remains, “where is the blood applied in this scenario”? When did God recognize that person as being reconciled to Himself again? Is there no need to seek out forgiveness for sin committed against a Holy God, simply because through the power of the mind you stopped doing whatever it was that you felt guilty of doing (repented)?

I guess that I cannot reconcile to my mind, how one can repent, yet not seek the forgiveness and reconciliation to God, at an altar (where ever that maybe). I have always thought the tears I cried on the altar were not so much as “feeling” bad for sinning as much as my plea to God of my need and desire for His Spirit to renew right thinking and right actions in my life through the leading of the Holy Ghost. Did not David in Psalms 51 set a beautiful example of a souls appeal to God for forgiveness? I have always felt that Psalm would have been written after David felt conviction and then he displayed a mind change, by first and foremost seeking forgiveness.

In short I always thought:
Repentance (change of mind) + seeking Forgiveness = Reconciliation to God & a renewing of the Holy Ghost, which empowers one to "go and sin no more"

While the new presentation of repentance is:
Almost the same, except it eliminates the need for God to forgive the sinner. Saying Repentance (change of mind) + Right actions = forgiveness and reconciliation

[KeptByTheWord]

So, repentance (e.g. change of mind), followed by the right actions, to "go and sin no more", is enough. No real need for an altar, no need for the grace of God, no need for mercy. But now I can just simply sin until I feel really guilty, then I simply stop sinning, and live as if I never sinned at all. To me this sounds like “self-justification” - Considering that “justification” of sins through the blood means, 'God sees that person clean, just as if they never sinned'.

My question remains, “where is the blood applied in this scenario”? When did God recognize that person as being reconciled to Himself again? Is there no need to seek out forgiveness for sin committed against a Holy God, simply because through the power of the mind you stopped doing whatever it was that you felt guilty of doing (repented)?

The blood is applied in sincere repentance. The sinner recognizes himself as a sinner, desperately needing the mercy of God, and cries out to God in repentance. The blood of the Lord Jesus cleanses him from the sins he has committed, and then the Comforter, or the Holy Ghost is given to help live a life overcoming, and changing from previous sinful ways.

You made a comment "through the power of the mind", which seems as if you are saying the repentant sinner is left to try to quit sinning through the power of his mind, which is not the case at all! What should happen is that the sinner recognizes his desperate need of the Lord, repents, and the spirit of the Lord changes him from the old fleshly sinful man into a new creature that now has the spirit of Christ to help him overcome sin and the lusts of the flesh!

I guess that I cannot reconcile to my mind, how one can repent, yet not seek the forgiveness and reconciliation to God, at an altar (where ever that maybe). I have always thought the tears I cried on the altar were not so much as “feeling” bad for sinning as much as my plea to God of my need and desire for His Spirit to renew right thinking and right actions in my life through the leading of the Holy Ghost. Did not David in Psalms 51 set a beautiful example of a souls appeal to God for forgiveness? I have always felt that Psalm would have been written after David felt conviction and then he displayed a mind change, by first and foremost seeking forgiveness.

In short I always thought:
Repentance (change of mind) + seeking Forgiveness = Reconciliation to God & a renewing of the Holy Ghost, which empowers one to "go and sin no more"

While the new presentation of repentance is:
Almost the same, except it eliminates the need for God to forgive the sinner. Saying Repentance (change of mind) + Right actions = forgiveness and reconciliation

I hope you are not directing this to me, as if I am saying that repentance does not involve the forgiveness and mercy of God involved in the act of repentance! Not at all! Were it not for the mercy of God, and the blood of Jesus, what good would repentance do?

No... it is the very spirit of Jesus that comes into a heart is what empowers one to overcome, and then one begins on the journey to perfection through sanctification.

[votivesoul]

Being forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Jesus is not the same as God granting a person repentance.

Forgiveness occurs because of the mercy of God to not hold a sin over someone's head in judgment.

Repentance occurs when God transforms a person through the renewing of their mind.

God may forgive any number of people countless times. Some only seek this, never desiring to change, hence the verse I shared from Malachi 2.

God would prefer that people go further, to let His Spirit renovate their brain, so that they can move forward, with a forgiven soul, into more sinless life of righteousness.

[jfrog]

So, repentance (e.g. change of mind), followed by the right actions, to "go and sin no more", is enough. No real need for an altar, no need for the grace of God, no need for mercy. But now I can just simply sin until I feel really guilty, then I simply stop sinning, and live as if I never sinned at all. To me this sounds like “self-justification” - Considering that “justification” of sins through the blood means, 'God sees that person clean, just as if they never sinned'.

My question remains, “where is the blood applied in this scenario”? When did God recognize that person as being reconciled to Himself again? Is there no need to seek out forgiveness for sin committed against a Holy God, simply because through the power of the mind you stopped doing whatever it was that you felt guilty of doing (repented)?

I guess that I cannot reconcile to my mind, how one can repent, yet not seek the forgiveness and reconciliation to God, at an altar (where ever that maybe). I have always thought the tears I cried on the altar were not so much as “feeling” bad for sinning as much as my plea to God of my need and desire for His Spirit to renew right thinking and right actions in my life through the leading of the Holy Ghost. Did not David in Psalms 51 set a beautiful example of a souls appeal to God for forgiveness? I have always felt that Psalm would have been written after David felt conviction and then he displayed a mind change, by first and foremost seeking forgiveness.

In short I always thought:
Repentance (change of mind) + seeking Forgiveness = Reconciliation to God & a renewing of the Holy Ghost, which empowers one to "go and sin no more"

While the new presentation of repentance is:
Almost the same, except it eliminates the need for God to forgive the sinner. Saying Repentance (change of mind) + Right actions = forgiveness and reconciliation

There is only 1 saving repentance. Turning from sin doesn't save. Turning toward Jesus does. One can turn from sin without turning toward Jesus. One cannot turn toward Jesus without turning from sin.

Turning toward Jesus make one a believer, a Christian. In this respect, most don't have to ever turn towards Jesus more than once. So saving repentance is done by most one time and that is all.

Sometimes people want to break down sin repentance and all this to a microscopic level. They think that after just one sin you have turned away from Jesus and are in need of repentance to turn back toward him. To them there is this constant turning from Jesus and turning back toward Jesus. I can't say they are wrong but I believe there is a better way.

I want to offer a very zoomed out view of these things. We turn towards Jesus once in repentance. We then stay turned toward him but instead of going directly at him on a straight path we instead follow a curvy road and while that road will take us to him, each curve represents a mistake or sin we go through along the way. So while some of the curves may have us going the wrong direction for a brief moment in time, there is much more of the road going toward Jesus than going away from him. So as long as we are on that road then we are going in the right direction, toward Jesus.

So, what is the proper way to deal with our sins while we are on the road toward Jesus? I tend to think saying sorry to God (who sin wrongs) is a good start. Though I don't think saying sorry is an absolute every time requirement. God is smart enough to tell that we are sorry by our actions even if we don't say it. The most important way to deal with our sins while we are on the road toward Jesus is to stop doing them.

[agoodlife2live]

I hope you are not directing this to me, as if I am saying that repentance does not involve the forgiveness and mercy of God involved in the act of repentance! Not at all! Were it not for the mercy of God, and the blood of Jesus, what good would repentance do?

No... it is the very spirit of Jesus that comes into a heart is what empowers one to overcome, and then one begins on the journey to perfection through sanctification.

I totally agree with you on this topic & I apologize I did not intend to direct my statement at anyone in particular :) ... I have been only trying to press the issue to get clear, direct answers. It has been the insinuation (by a non-member of AFF) "repentance" does not require God, Mercy, or the need for brokenness that has me all up in arms. The Blood and Mercy of God is a large part of my salvation and to think of repentance without the need for Jesus to serve as my mediator, just seems so wrong to me. That is all I was saying... I only wanted to find the underlying premise of what I believe, and sometimes getting other peoples perspective is the best way to balance my own point of view. I pray you are not offended with me. Peace!

[Aquila]

With the repentance is contrition and confession to God still required? or is turning around from sin with a made up mind enough?

I do believe that confession is necessary. We need to "get real" with God and ourselves about our sins. As for contrition... that's complicated. Sometimes we simply "know" that something is wrong... even if we don't have an overwhelming emotional outpouring about the deed. I'd say that if one turns from sin with a made up mind, knowing that it is wrong, it is still valid.

I've often seen people who have a highly emotionalized religion tolerate sin waiting on some overwhelming emotional motivation to cease from sin. During this waiting period sin takes it's toll. I'd say that mere knowledge and turning from sin with a made up mind is just as valid as if one is emotional about it.

[agoodlife2live]

In closure to this question, I would guess that the consensus is that without turning to God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength (Luke 10:27), then repentance is futile. For without the whole soul - the "heart" (the emotions), the “mind” (the resolute decision to turn from sin and to God), and "strength" (actions), then there is no true repentance or appeal to God to give us mercy and cover us with His precious blood. I thank you all for your perceptions, some lean hard towards "mind and actions" while, like myself, some rely more upon the mercy of God that is received at the altar in contrition, by faith being made new, BUT the truth in the end IS God requires it all (A change of mind, a change of actions, and a sincere desire to be forgiven, along with faith in the Blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse the conscience!). Peace. :bouquet

[Luke]

No man ever reaches the place where thewy are beyond temptation. We can through Jesus be entirerly sanctified and have our old carnal nature destroyed and walk without the desire to sin but even then we are still capable of being tempted and falling.

[agoodlife2live]

No man ever reaches the place where thewy are beyond temptation. We can through Jesus be entirerly sanctified and have our old carnal nature destroyed and walk without the desire to sin but even then we are still capable of being tempted and falling.

I fully agree! It was this admission that God can cause us to pass through the barrier of temptation that caused me to almost fell off my chair... :girlytantrum

[KeptByTheWord]

I totally agree with you on this topic & I apologize I did not intend to direct my statement at anyone in particular :) ... I have been only trying to press the issue to get clear, direct answers. It has been the insinuation (by a non-member of AFF) "repentance" does not require God, Mercy, or the need for brokenness that has me all up in arms. The Blood and Mercy of God is a large part of my salvation and to think of repentance without the need for Jesus to serve as my mediator, just seems so wrong to me. That is all I was saying... I only wanted to find the underlying premise of what I believe, and sometimes getting other peoples perspective is the best way to balance my own point of view. I pray you are not offended with me. Peace!

No problems, AGoodLife2Live! I enjoy being able to discuss an issue too, trying to get different sides and perspectives, before making up my own mind on a matter. God Bless You too :)