Thinking Things Through

[ILG]

I have been recently looking into cults. Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, please understand that I am NOT saying the UPC is a cult. I just want to talk through some ideas I am thinking about.

In a book I am reading, it says that many religious movements start out as cults but gain wider acceptance in the mainstream and then are just a religious movement. The writer even included Christianity in this definition saying that Christianity was a cult at it's beginning because it was a fringe group that was not accepted by the mainstream but now it is not a cult because it is so widely accepted in our society. Huh?

I am not sure I am following this.

Anyway, I have noticed that, along these lines, many groups, including the UPC, Catholicism, Mormonism, Judaism, whatever, have many people inside that seem very content in their chosen religion. It works for them. The UPC works for many people too.

It seems to be that what causes people to leave and push against the movements is abuse.

One of my kids told me that the UPC is not a cult, but that the church we pastored at the end was a cult when we took over it because of the behaviors that were going on there.

So, I am just wondering about your opinions on this. What makes a cult? Is a cult only a cult if it is small and fringe? How does abuse play into it?

[Disciple4life]

cult noun, often attributive \ˈkəlt\

: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

: a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

: a small group of very devoted supporters or fans

I would think that anytime people are not free to have their own opinion, are being micromanaged in their life, or are not free to leave the group without harassment of retribution, you might be in a cult.

If you ask yourself the question "Am I in a cult?" you are probably in a cult. :airplane

[ILG]

cult noun, often attributive \ˈkəlt\

: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

: a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

: a small group of very devoted supporters or fans

I would think that anytime people are not free to have their own opinion, are being micromanaged in their life, or are not free to leave the group without harassment of retribution, you might be in a cult.

If you ask yourself the question "Am I in a cult?" you are probably in a cult. :airplane

So if a cult overtook the world and most everyone agreed it would not be a cult?

[Disciple4life]

Ignorance is bliss!!! :dogpat

[ILG]

The guy who wrote this book had been a Moonie. We would all agree that the Moonies are a cult. I believe things become more or less like a cult as they go on a spectrum.

For example, cults are based around a personality. I think any church could become that if they gave too much weight to the leader, no matter what church group they were a part of.

[Disciple4life]

I just read David Reed's book "In Jesus Name". In his book he kind of said something like this.

Oneness Pentecostals were thrown out of Christianity because of our views on the Trinity and Salvation. I don't remember the word he used Cult Heresy or what.
But as time goes by and we explain our believes in a more theological manner and people get to know us, we will be eventually accepted into mainstream. David Reed is much more eloquent in explaining this but you get the point.

Something else that he mentioned is that Pentecostal Assemblies of the World are a little more accepted than the UPCI. He attributes this to the PAW holding on to GT Haywood's teaching of the light doctrine. This explains that the PAW accepts other Christians and that God has a place for them even if they have not come into the full truth of salvation.

It seems David Reed has a lot of opinions for an Ex-Oneness Pentecostal! :foottap

[ILG]

I just read David Reed's book "In Jesus Name". In his book he kind of said something like this.

Oneness Pentecostals were thrown out of Christianity because of our views on the Trinity and Salvation. I don't remember the word he used Cult Heresy or what.
But as time goes by and we explain our believes in a more theological manner and people get to know us, we will be eventually accepted into mainstream. David Reed is much more eloquent in explaining this but you get the point.

Something else that he mentioned is that Pentecostal Assemblies of the World are a little more accepted than the UPCI. He attributes this to the PAW holding on to GT Haywood's teaching of the light doctrine. This explains that the PAW accepts other Christians and that God has a place for them even if they have not come into the full truth of salvation.

It seems David Reed has a lot of opinions for an Ex-Oneness Pentecostal! :foottap

This would definitely help with the us against them theology that is prevalent in cults. Also the PAW is not as legalistic as the UPC in regards to the dress standards. I think that there are some in the UPC that are not legalistic with the dress standards although they believe in them and live them. However, speaking from experience, those that are legalistic are allowed to be the loudest voice and so the dress standards become salvational for many. Those that are not legalistic are afraid to speak out with their views but those views could free so many. If people really believe in the standards (and I believe many do) they should not fear that the truth about them will lead people to leave them. Truth is what sets people free.

[KeptByTheWord]

I think that an organization can be termed a cult when fear becomes the leading, dominating factor to keeping members obedient to the leader.

Jesus never demanded obedience from his followers. He let those leave him who disagreed with him, and didn't try to pursue them. He wants your willing heart, and will not threaten, fear or scare you into following Him. He wants your willing heart.

Christians should never be responsible for starting cults, but unfortunately, when people take their eyes off Jesus, and begin to follow a leader, a personality, a belief, or a doctrine, and make that more important than following Jesus, no doubt they are setting up the groundwork for a cult to form.

[NotforSale]

IMO, look for this one attribute; Fear of the unknown. When fear of the unknown is used to maintain obedience, Houston, we have a problem!

I recently watched an excellent documentary called, Lifting the Veil on Polygamy. Fear of the unknown is the main reason these women would not leave these homes of utter bondage.

The sad thing is, no Religion is really exempt from this, and fear is the greatest tormentor of human beings because the imagination is an endless portal of "Maybes".

[ILG]

Yes, I used the word abuse instead of fear and of course, fear is abuse.

It seems like whenever people twist words to make people fear, it mkaes the group ripe for cultism or abuse.

NFS, this ties into your thread about heaven and/or hell. Since no one really KNOWS whether there be a heaven or hell, people should say "I think". Instead, people are browbeaten and told they must believe what the leader says or they will be cast into outer torment forever and ever. That's fear.

[Disciple4life]

Romans 10

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks thus, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

I really love this scripture. Nobody ever uses it though. Hmmm.... :pullhair

[Robert Sanders]

Romans 10

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks thus, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

I really love this scripture. Nobody ever uses it though. Hmmm.... :pullhair
Are you worth saving?

[Timmy]

Are you worth saving?

Are you worth replying to?

[obriencp]

This would definitely help with the us against them theology that is prevalent in cults. Also the PAW is not as legalistic as the UPC in regards to the dress standards. I think that there are some in the UPC that are not legalistic with the dress standards although they believe in them and live them. However, speaking from experience, those that are legalistic are allowed to be the loudest voice and so the dress standards become salvational for many. Those that are not legalistic are afraid to speak out with their views but those views could free so many. If people really believe in the standards (and I believe many do) they should not fear that the truth about them will lead people to leave them. Truth is what sets people free.

:thumbsup

I've fellowshipped with ALJC, UPCI, and PAW and you nailed it with regards to the differences between the PAW and UPC.

Churches can vary so much from one pastor to another. There are some churches i'd feel welcome to attend/visit in the PAW or UPC while there are others that, because of the "cultish" tendancies, I wouldn't step foot in.

[ludwig_v_m]

I can only speak to my own experience... that being when I left a certain organization there were a few things that I had issues with:

1. Fear of the unknown.
2. For my entire life I called myself a "Pentecostal" to the point that I had no other identity except that... pentecostal.

Leaving was very, very difficult because it had been all I had known since I was an infant and all of my family was still that (and still is that). So not believing I could go to any other sort of church because the only church that was heaven-bound was the one within which I was born (both physically, and by theological definition, spiritually). Then, once I finally did leave, there was the struggle to define who I was outside of that label. I had to strip all of that away and become human so I could figure out who I was as a person - and, frankly, still something I deal with daily.

Granted, this may bring nothing constructive to the conversation... just thoughts I had while reading through the thread.

[jediwill83]

Good post...Im kinda experiencing that now.

[ludwig_v_m]

Good post...Im kinda experiencing that now.

If you were talking to me with this, thanks. I'm a completely different person, really, than I was at that time. Though I have to wonder if I'm a different person or if I'm a person that is more honest than I was at that time. I won't give you any spiritual advice as I think that you'll have to work through things on your own. Not that advice isn't something you should seek but you should seek it from people who truly care for you and, frankly, know you.

I didn't have this luxury; or maybe wouldn't allow myself this luxury. I fought the fight all on my own - and that isn't a brag it merely is the fact. I didn't (still don't, honestly) trust people to have my best interest in their mind - and they often didn't - and that was difficult for me because I think you need mentors or help or something along the journey.

For better or worse, I no longer attend church in the traditional sense of the word. There are days when I believe and days when I don't.

I've spoken words to people (even recently), knowing that God was in them, but not really knowing the impact until days, sometimes weeks, later - and I'm not sure I understand why because I'm not a "good" Christian; nor understand why words I speak would have an affect on people.

I spend days thinking about life in general, my spirituality specifically (and about a lot of politics as well) and wondering about direction. The results of those thoughts are kept more secret than who killed Jimmy Hoffa. In fact, I've not spoken about them in years, really, except to my wife and kids. And, outside my family, only on the occasion when I feel chatty - which is maybe once a year.

I used to communicate all the time on FaithChildForum and NFCF - even started my own forum for a while. But, eventually, I realized that I was still seeking acceptance and direction from outside and needed to really become introspective in order to find direction.

Anyway, I digress... and hopefully you were talking to me... :D and I'll end by simply saying, I wouldn't trade this journey of mine for the world as I've become a better man for it.