View Full Version : Qualifications for License
barry72
05-07-2014, 09:51 AM
I recently asked a group of 8 young ministers preparing to go before the board to get their ministerial license, how many of them were currently teaching home bible studies or doing some form of outreach? None of them were teaching bible studies or actively involved in outreach. Why on Earth would they be qualified to stand behind a pulpit and preach the Word of God if they are not living a Godly lifestyle?
I'm afraid we are way too into licensing young men for the fame of holding the microphone and we are leading people away from Jesus and leading them towards religion. We are quick to preach standards and slow to preach love. We need to get back to operating the way Jesus and the apostles did; willing to sacrifice our own desires and wants for the needs of someone else.
People are coming into our churches for help and we are sending them down to the food pantry that we send $50 a month to? My God help us....While reading the Bible last night I began to weep with conviction about ignoring the needs of others. We should be known for our love to one another and I have to say; Apostolic's aren't know for love. The Baptist Church down the road just came by Saturday and washed my car along with my neighbors cars, just to spread the love of Jesus.
I know this was scattered, but I just wanted to encourage someone else today go out and let your light shine. I don't care if im the only one in my church giving attention to the needs of the single mothers and poor thag visit us every week, I'm going to do it.
Start a food pantry or other social work. It is not enough to be grieved about what others are not doing when we are only responsible for our own works of righteousness.
Yes, religion is death to all that follow, but I am not able to make a difference in the religious. I learned long ago towalk away from religion and walk into relationship with Jesus.
Also remember that Jesus said, "The poor you have with you always". You can give yourself to death and not change one thing about those who want a handout. There are those who really need help, those that are qualified, ie the widows and fatherless, the ones who are in their situation through a catastrophe or other event that is no fault of their own. Able bodied people who are lazy though, they can get hungry until they are ready to work.
barry72
05-07-2014, 10:19 AM
I agree with that. In my new job it has been an eye opener because a lot of people I had wrote off for being lazy were actually hurting so much on the inside from people that had wronged them. One gentleman was in a deep depression ( you wouldn't know that just looking at him) because his wife cheated on him and left. He ended up losing his job and being homeless and just didn't have any motivation to do anything. All he needed was someone to come along and tell him they loved him and cared about him and buy him a meal. That was enough for this man to realize that life isn't over.
My point is, you never know who you're feeding or helping. We may not think they deserve it...but do we really deserve everything we have either?
I agree with that. In my new job it has been an eye opener because a lot of people I had wrote off for being lazy were actually hurting so much on the inside from people that had wronged them. One gentleman was in a deep depression ( you wouldn't know that just looking at him) because his wife cheated on him and left. He ended up losing his job and being homeless and just didn't have any motivation to do anything. All he needed was someone to come along and tell him they loved him and cared about him and buy him a meal. That was enough for this man to realize that life isn't over.
My point is, you never know who you're feeding or helping. We may not think they deserve it...but do we really deserve everything we have either?
Ahhhhh. that is another point altogether.
A spiritual problem, depression, is only to be taken care of with spiritual means. ie deliverance. This is something that the orgs are not teaching the young men to do at all. They have fallen into the trap that everything is physical.
Fionn mac Cumh
05-07-2014, 10:47 AM
The bible is the only license you need to preach the word. Also, I know some churches who say you cant be on the platform for anything, music included, if you havent won at least one person to Christ. Thats a platform standard that I can get behind. O and BTW thats from a quote unquote liberal UPC preacher.
Aquila
05-08-2014, 06:16 AM
I agree with that. In my new job it has been an eye opener because a lot of people I had wrote off for being lazy were actually hurting so much on the inside from people that had wronged them. One gentleman was in a deep depression ( you wouldn't know that just looking at him) because his wife cheated on him and left. He ended up losing his job and being homeless and just didn't have any motivation to do anything. All he needed was someone to come along and tell him they loved him and cared about him and buy him a meal. That was enough for this man to realize that life isn't over.
My point is, you never know who you're feeding or helping. We may not think they deserve it...but do we really deserve everything we have either?
One of the best posts I've ever read. Amen and Amen.
Aquila
05-08-2014, 06:17 AM
I have ceased my focus on a license. Seemed that's all young men wanted back in the churches I attended. Today... I'm a radical house churching, street preaching, tongue talking, devil stomping, Bible teaching, elect saint of God.
Aquila
05-08-2014, 06:18 AM
In the Bible... the majority of "sermons" were preached outside to large groups... often in public places. In the NT, we see the church gathering for fellowship in houses more times than not. They hadn't become infatuated with buildings and all that yet. Most had broken away from Judaism, with it's inordinate focus on the religious elite, mandated Sabbaths, the temple, sacrifices, and legalistic forms of worship. They now reveled in their freedom. They were indeed spiritually... free.
FlamingZword
05-08-2014, 09:47 AM
I have ceased my focus on a license. Seemed that's all young men wanted back in the churches I attended. Today... I'm a radical house churching, street preaching, tongue talking, devil stomping, Bible teaching, elect saint of God.
a license simply means that you are willing to toe some theological line, despite what the Bible may say. Most false prophets have a license with this or that denomination.
the threat of losing the preaching license is what keeps many in false doctrine and heresy.
the threat of losing the preaching license is what keeps many UPCI preachers preaching things they not longer believe in.
The prophets of God did not go to the religious leaders of Jerusalem and asked permission to prophecy.
At one time I was ordained, but I am not longer ordained nor seek to be ordained, either people believe I am a man of God or I am not.
A license will not make me a true preacher or a false preacher.
Either I am a true preacher of the truth or I am not.
Aquila
05-08-2014, 10:55 AM
Amen.
Timmy
05-08-2014, 11:14 AM
Isn't being called by God enough?
barry72
05-08-2014, 12:48 PM
I never have understood the reason for licensing. I spent many years listening to ministers preaching their guts out about pastoral submission and submitting to authority, to have them be Un - submissive to God's word.
I have just realized that, I have to study and pray myself because I can't rely on the preacher to get me to heaven.
KeptByTheWord
05-08-2014, 05:56 PM
In all due respect, you have got a lot of realizing to do if you think the preacher is gonna get you to heaven, Bro. You are just starting on a journey, and I am glad to hear that you are on it. Please read the word of God for yourself. You will find that idea, as well as many others that you no doubt believe, are not there. Ministry is only part of the equation, and is not responsible for our eternal destination.
As far as the licensing situation in your original post... this is simply because preaching has become a business. Being called of God is something many (I won't say all because I know there are those who are sincere) of these young preachers have no clue about. They are simply desiring a glorified authoritative lifestyle, and have no intention of really being the kind of disciples of Christ that the apostles were.
If you are truly hungry for more of the Lord in your life, continue searching, and seeking after Christ. In Matthew 5, he says those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled.
God bless you on your journey!
n david
05-08-2014, 06:40 PM
No one needs a ministerial license from any organization to fulfill the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 or Mark 16:15.
Most states still require that a minister be licensed or ordained in order to perform a marriage ceremony.
So, depending on what you want to do - ie be a Pastor, Evangelist, etc, you may or may not want/need to be licensed or ordained by either an organization or church body.
Desiring a ministerial license doesn't mean a person is greedy, wanting to be an authoritive jerk, or anything else. It used to be a good thing for which to strive. Since in the past, the licensing came with greater ethical and moral standards, it was a good thing to desire.
Unfortunately, due to personal and moral failures by licensed ministers, and because of a small minority who use their license to abuse; it's no longer looked at with respect. Instead, people think of greed or abuse when it's mentioned.
The church which I attend has mentioned ordaining ministers itself, though the Pastor has said many times what I said above -- you do not need a license to preach the Gospel. Just do it.
Revelationist
05-09-2014, 08:05 PM
Churches can't get a pastor because the church can't support them full time. They might have to hold a real job....
mfblume
05-09-2014, 08:09 PM
I never have understood the reason for licensing. I spent many years listening to ministers preaching their guts out about pastoral submission and submitting to authority, to have them be Un - submissive to God's word.
I have just realized that, I have to study and pray myself because I can't rely on the preacher to get me to heaven.
Licensing was supposed to be for the purpose of KNOWING THEM THAT LABOUR AMONG YOU. I had people walk into church and want to preach, and never knew them from Adam. What would they say>? What did they believe? You couldn't know. So, the basic doctrinal beliefs are guaranteed to be held by a fellowship's licensee, as well as their moral standing etc.
FlamingZword
05-09-2014, 08:26 PM
Licensing was supposed to be for the purpose of KNOWING THEM THAT LABOUR AMONG YOU. I had people walk into church and want to preach, and never knew them from Adam. What would they say>? What did they believe? You couldn't know. So, the basic doctrinal beliefs are guaranteed to be held by a fellowship's licensee, as well as their moral standing etc.
Those are good and noble intentions and not bad, the problem is that human beings, being what they are, they are bound to foul up anything created with good intentions.
I am not against licensing, but a license does not stop a false prophet.
When Paul went preaching to the bereans, they did not ask him for his "license" to see if he was OK, instead they searched the scriptures to see if what he preached lined up with the Bible.
by the way if a preacher starts preaching something that is wrong, you as the senior pastor have the right to interrupt the brother speaking and say something like "Thank you brother for your message, and we may hear more of your message later, but we need to wrap up things tonight, or something like that"
I applaud you brother Blume for not allowing anybody to just go into the pulpit, for no preacher should allow anyone to preach from his pulpit, even if that person has a license, until the preacher knows the message that the messenger is bringing.
I would want any visiting preacher, to preach to me first, and then I would decide if I want the congregation to listen to that message.
mfblume
05-09-2014, 10:36 PM
Those are good and noble intentions and not bad, the problem is that human beings, being what they are, they are bound to foul up anything created with good intentions.
I am not against licensing, but a license does not stop a false prophet.
When Paul went preaching to the bereans, they did not ask him for his "license" to see if he was OK, instead they searched the scriptures to see if what he preached lined up with the Bible.
by the way if a preacher starts preaching something that is wrong, you as the senior pastor have the right to interrupt the brother speaking and say something like "Thank you brother for your message, and we may hear more of your message later, but we need to wrap up things tonight, or something like that"
I applaud you brother Blume for not allowing anybody to just go into the pulpit, for no preacher should allow anyone to preach from his pulpit, even if that person has a license, until the preacher knows the message that the messenger is bringing.
I would want any visiting preacher, to preach to me first, and then I would decide if I want the congregation to listen to that message.
I think it is wise for licensing since it is something we have a responsibility to do in ensuring our flocks are not wolf-in-sheep's-clothing fodder. Of course no safeguard is foolproof. But attempts do need to be made since the bible say s to know those who labour among you.
votivesoul
05-10-2014, 01:46 AM
Ready for the uber-cynical reason?
Money.
I know, it's an easy target. But here is the thing that needs to be understood:
A licensing, religious organization is not the Church. It is a man-made organization, structured around what it believes to be the Church. As such, it is interested in its own propagation, the same as any business or corporation.
In such a model, the business needs to be self-sustaining. One way in which a religious organization, especially a non-profit, sustains itself is through licensing. How? Because licensing costs money and brings in revenue.
So, if a young man wants to be licensed with a religious organization, he will have to do the following:
- Buy all the reading materials (probably well over a hundred dollars)
- If licensed, pay a monthly due, which, on average, can end up being more than $1,000 a year.
So, for one license, the district or state, and therefore by extension, the organization, is immediately guaranteed, off of one licensing, well over $1,000 if not closer to $2,000 a year. If a district has 100 licensed ministers, and if they all faithfully pay their dues, it's a guaranteed minimum of $100,000 every year for the district, not counting all the times ministers, churches, and saints are hit up for money to continue the cause, not necessarily of the Kingdom of God, but of the licensing organization.
So the more people licensed with the organization, the more money is brought in, just by licensing more and more people. And to what end? Many presbyters and district superintendents (and even higher up than that), have no secular work from which to earn a salary. Their financial income often times comes directly out of the dues paid into the organization. So there is a conflicted interest in a district board passing out more and more licenses, since the licensing process bring them more money, which allows for more and more board members to earn an income solely based on the perpetuation of the system.
If no new licenses or levels of licenses are given out in a year, and if five or ten ministers in a district resign their license, immediately, across the board budget cuts would have to take place. That is not self-sustaining. That is not growth. The goal behind the organization becomes thwarted.
So, the resolution? License more ministers to keep the cash flow flowing. Even if they aren't qualified, dignified, sanctified, making their calling and election sure by faithfully doing the work of the Lord.
One young man in my district, when desiring to be licensed, realized he couldn't affirm that he had won any souls on his licensing application. He thought it over, worried that he shouldn't go before the board for a license.
But then he prayed, and he said "God told me I don't have to win souls in order to be a pastor".
He is now the following: an assistant pastor, youth pastor, and district sectional youth rep of the largest section in the state. And guess what? His dad is a pastor, two of his uncles are pastors, and his family in general, has a long, long history in the state. So how did he get licensed?
Easy. All it really takes is a pastor's support, and it's going to happen. And if nepotism is involved, for get about it, it's definitely going to happen.
Reader
05-10-2014, 10:48 AM
So, the basic doctrinal beliefs are guaranteed to be held by a fellowship's licensee, as well as their moral standing etc.
I must disagree with your "guaranteed" statement. History has shown this to not be true.
If a district has 100 licensed ministers, and if they all faithfully pay their dues, it's a guaranteed minimum of $100,000 every year for the district,
License money, at least in the UPC, goes to Missouri headquarters and not the districts. Each district is permitted to make their own rules about separate district dues, which vary from place to place. Some may have a set amount per month/quarter and others may ask for your tithe. What is paid may vary if one is a pastor or a minister but not a pastor. Additionally, each level of licensing is different though they all run about $400 annually.
KeptByTheWord
05-10-2014, 10:56 AM
I agree with Votivesoul - licensing really boils down to being about $$.
No record of this kind of operation is found in the NT church... the SPIRIT was the "licensing" that operated and sent forth apostles, missionaries, bishops and elders. The NT disciples fasted, prayed, and then laid hands on those desiring to go forth in the work of the Lord. That was all that was required.
Where is the work of the SPIRIT in the churches? Sadly, the work of the Spirit has been set aside for the purpose of $$ and revenue for the church.... instead of praying, and selecting those who the Spirit has said are called... instead for the sole purpose of bringing in revenue.... man is using a system that is not biblical to bring in $$ supposedly to "further the work of the kingdom."
mfblume
05-10-2014, 02:00 PM
I agree with Votivesoul - licensing really boils down to being about $$.
No record of this kind of operation is found in the NT church... the SPIRIT was the "licensing" that operated and sent forth apostles, missionaries, bishops and elders. The NT disciples fasted, prayed, and then laid hands on those desiring to go forth in the work of the Lord. That was all that was required.
Where is the work of the SPIRIT in the churches? Sadly, the work of the Spirit has been set aside for the purpose of $$ and revenue for the church.... instead of praying, and selecting those who the Spirit has said are called... instead for the sole purpose of bringing in revenue.... man is using a system that is not biblical to bring in $$ supposedly to "further the work of the kingdom."
Whether or not money got involved is not the original point, I think. It was the apostolic manner of knowing those who labour among you. I would not belong to a group that dkid not take measures to know those who labour among you.
One group started up and called me and asked me to be a regional bishop in Canada, and I refused. They did not know me from anyone. What kind of group asked me to hold a serious position without even knowing me? Not a group I wanted to belong to. What else do they forsake if they abandon the need to know those who labour among you?
mfblume
05-10-2014, 02:01 PM
I must disagree with your "guaranteed" statement. History has shown this to not be true.
It's not foolproof, as I said, but it is the intention, still.
License money, at least in the UPC, goes to Missouri headquarters and not the districts. Each district is permitted to make their own rules about separate district dues, which vary from place to place. Some may have a set amount per month/quarter and others may ask for your tithe. What is paid may vary if one is a pastor or a minister but not a pastor. Additionally, each level of licensing is different though they all run about $400 annually.
KeptByTheWord
05-12-2014, 08:12 PM
Whether or not money got involved is not the original point, I think. It was the apostolic manner of knowing those who labour among you. I would not belong to a group that dkid not take measures to know those who labour among you.
One group started up and called me and asked me to be a regional bishop in Canada, and I refused. They did not know me from anyone. What kind of group asked me to hold a serious position without even knowing me? Not a group I wanted to belong to. What else do they forsake if they abandon the need to know those who labour among you?
But wouldn't you think that the Spirit should be in operation, as it was in the early church, to discern those who were among the sheep as wolves?
mfblume
05-12-2014, 09:27 PM
But wouldn't you think that the Spirit should be in operation, as it was in the early church, to discern those who were among the sheep as wolves?
Of course. But God also gave us brains and we are expected to use them as well. BOTH. :) The problem is when people refuse one or the other and get into error thereby.
votivesoul
05-13-2014, 02:36 AM
Whether or not money got involved is not the original point, I think. It was the apostolic manner of knowing those who labour among you. I would not belong to a group that dkid not take measures to know those who labour among you.
One group started up and called me and asked me to be a regional bishop in Canada, and I refused. They did not know me from anyone. What kind of group asked me to hold a serious position without even knowing me? Not a group I wanted to belong to. What else do they forsake if they abandon the need to know those who labour among you?
I understand, in principle, the idea of wanting to "know them that labor among you". It is certainly a noble, Biblical precedent. But I see Paul's admonish in terms of the local church setting, not a global religious organization.
Just because someone has a license, or a reputation in one part of the world doesn't mean we can know anything about them or should accept them into our fold in order to labor for the Gospel, at least without proving.
But when Paul wrote what he wrote, he wrote it to the Thessalonian assembly. There, within that city, the brethren were to recognize those who were toiling on for the sake of the Gospel. Why? Because they were evident, and everyone in the city knew it (or should have known it).
To me, that's the recognition those who labor among us are to have: from people within the local assembly who spend quality time (even years) with the worker, to know their character, their demeanor, their faith, even the content of their hearts.
More than that risks great folly. In the past, more than one licensed minister has preached at my church, much to the chagrin of many involved. It's never a good thing when two services afterward, damage control is still being doled out by the local ministry...
Aquila
05-13-2014, 08:01 AM
In the NT a man's gifting and calling validated his ministry. Word about an elder's gifts were passed on by letter or word of mouth by the people who actually knew them.
Biblically speaking... the NT church functioned more like a network of families than a corporation.
KeptByTheWord
05-13-2014, 08:37 AM
I understand, in principle, the idea of wanting to "know them that labor among you". It is certainly a noble, Biblical precedent. But I see Paul's admonish in terms of the local church setting, not a global religious organization.
Just because someone has a license, or a reputation in one part of the world doesn't mean we can know anything about them or should accept them into our fold in order to labor for the Gospel, at least without proving.
But when Paul wrote what he wrote, he wrote it to the Thessalonian assembly. There, within that city, the brethren were to recognize those who were toiling on for the sake of the Gospel. Why? Because they were evident, and everyone in the city knew it (or should have known it).
To me, that's the recognition those who labor among us are to have: from people within the local assembly who spend quality time (even years) with the worker, to know their character, their demeanor, their faith, even the content of their hearts.
More than that risks great folly. In the past, more than one licensed minister has preached at my church, much to the chagrin of many involved. It's never a good thing when two services afterward, damage control is still being doled out by the local ministry...
:thumbsup
In the NT a man's gifting and calling validated his ministry. Word about an elder's gifts were passed on by letter or word of mouth by the people who actually knew them.
Biblically speaking... the NT church functioned more like a network of families than a corporation.
:thumbsup
n david
05-14-2014, 12:21 AM
Biblically speaking... the NT church functioned more like a network of families than a corporation.
Some churches I've visited take that literally...
Father is the Sr Pastor
Son is the Pastor
Wife is the Treasurer
And on and on it goes...
Abiding Now
05-15-2014, 08:07 AM
Go here. http://www.ministerregistration.org/
FlamingZword
05-15-2014, 10:10 AM
Go here. http://www.ministerregistration.org/
The list of beliefs is too long. :heeheehee
Abiding Now
05-15-2014, 03:14 PM
The list of beliefs is too long. :heeheehee
I understand.:heeheehee
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