View Full Version : The Scriptures Are Subjective
Dante
05-21-2014, 06:50 PM
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.
Not true, my interpretation is perfect and all the others have a right to be wrong...LOL
KeptByTheWord
05-21-2014, 07:36 PM
Pretty good observation, lol.
KeptByTheWord
05-21-2014, 07:37 PM
Not true, my interpretation is perfect and all the others have a right to be wrong...LOL
I know you said this jokingly, but really... this is what most people think about "their" particular interpretation of the scriptures...
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is (thought to be) the correct one.
True
Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute
False
There, that's better .
I know you said this jokingly, but really... this is what most people think about "their" particular interpretation of the scriptures...
Brother, truly though...There is "one" interpretation but (many) applications.
People sometimes think (an) application is the interpretation.
KeptByTheWord
05-21-2014, 09:39 PM
Brother, truly though...There is "one" interpretation but (many) applications.
People sometimes think (an) application is the interpretation.
Lol... I'm a sister ;)
I agree that there are many applications of interpretations... :)
votivesoul
05-21-2014, 10:50 PM
I'm reading a book called Jewish Interpretation: Ancient and Contemporary.
It's a bit of a slog, but well worth it.
I relay now a paraphrase of something I read in the book (which is a quote from, if memory serves, the Talmud).
A father had two sons. To each son he gave the same two items: a bowl of flour and some flax. Afterward, the father left, telling his sons that when he returned, he would require the bowl of flour and the flax that he gave them.
The first son kept the bowl of flour and flax as it was given so that he could safely return it to his father once he came back.
The second son took the bowl of flour, added water, mixed it together, and baked the dough to make some bread. Then he took the flax and twined it together into a napkin. He placed the bread back into the bowl and covered it with the newly made napkin.
The father came home and was disappointed in the first son, but well pleased with the second son.
Thus, this is how Jews believe God intends for us to understand the Scriptures
The idea then being, we have a part to play in the interpretation of God's Word. And not only, God intended for it to be that way, as if to say the Scriptures are incomplete without a human intrepretation of them. Or so say ancient Jewish believers.
Personally, I'm not convinced that such a view has any merit. Still pondering it though...
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.
Yes, I agree.
Pressing-On
05-22-2014, 08:51 AM
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, Everyone's interpretations are subjective and not absolute.
That sounds more accurate.
So according to this line of reasoning God simply inspired words at random (doesn't really seem possible) without any meaning attached to them and for no reason? If any of the above statement is not true than the Bible is absolute and not subjective.
If God had a reason for giving scripture then there is an absolute meaning to what He said.
If God was getting a message across to us than there is an absolute meaning we are to understand.
To say that there the bible is not absolute and it can mean whatever you want it to mean and ever bodies interpretation is correct is both illogical sense conflicting views cannot both be correct and seems lazy in that it avoids the work of proper diligent bible study for the truth. It also makes God a liar since God is not the author of confusion if there is no sense in the Bible it is simply a book of confusion.
Reader
05-22-2014, 10:19 AM
1 Tim. 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
If the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, instruction and so forth, and if they can validly be interpreted any old way and that is supposedly fine, then Paul was foolish to write this. It appears to me, quite clearly, that Jesus and the apostles taught specific doctrine. When the Sadducees asked him a question pertaining to the resurrection (they did not believe in it), Jesus replied in Matthew 22:29 Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God
I could write a book. I know exactly what is in my mind as I write. I know that which I desire to convey. While someone may read and think that I meant something different, that does not make my writing subjective. They have instead misunderstood what was written.
FlamingZword
05-22-2014, 10:20 AM
If God had a reason for giving scripture then there is an absolute meaning to what He said.
If God was getting a message across to us than there is an absolute meaning we are to understand.
You are correct there is an absolute and correct meaning to each scripture, but people are quite willing to let their ideas color the meaning of each scripture.
Per example as a oneness believer the statement
"Hear Oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord"
to me it means that God is indeed an absolute one.
however to a Trinitarian the same statement means a compound one.
you see the bias a person has reinterprets the meaning of a passage.
jfrog
05-22-2014, 10:54 AM
1 Tim. 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
If the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, instruction and so forth, and if they can validly be interpreted any old way and that is supposedly fine, then Paul was foolish to write this. It appears to me, quite clearly, that Jesus and the apostles taught specific doctrine. When the Sadducees asked him a question pertaining to the resurrection (they did not believe in it), Jesus replied in Matthew 22:29 Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God
I could write a book. I know exactly what is in my mind as I write. I know that which I desire to convey. While someone may read and think that I meant something different, that does not make my writing subjective. They have instead misunderstood what was written.
To blame the reader on your poor writing would be unforgivable. It matters what the reader takes away from your writing and not what you wrote.
Reader
05-22-2014, 11:06 AM
If someone misinterprets what I was conveying, it must mean I have poor writing skills? Are you saying all the writers of the Bible have poor writing skills?
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 11:23 AM
So according to this line of reasoning God simply inspired words at random (doesn't really seem possible) without any meaning attached to them and for no reason? If any of the above statement is not true than the Bible is absolute and not subjective.
If God had a reason for giving scripture then there is an absolute meaning to what He said.
If God was getting a message across to us than there is an absolute meaning we are to understand.
To say that there the bible is not absolute and it can mean whatever you want it to mean and ever bodies interpretation is correct is both illogical sense conflicting views cannot both be correct and seems lazy in that it avoids the work of proper diligent bible study for the truth. It also makes God a liar since God is not the author of confusion if there is no sense in the Bible it is simply a book of confusion.
1 Tim. 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
If the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, instruction and so forth, and if they can validly be interpreted any old way and that is supposedly fine, then Paul was foolish to write this. It appears to me, quite clearly, that Jesus and the apostles taught specific doctrine. When the Sadducees asked him a question pertaining to the resurrection (they did not believe in it), Jesus replied in Matthew 22:29 Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God
I could write a book. I know exactly what is in my mind as I write. I know that which I desire to convey. While someone may read and think that I meant something different, that does not make my writing subjective. They have instead misunderstood what was written.
I just want to point out that using a Biblical scripture saying that the Bible is absolute/true/God's Word/inerrant doesn't really work on a logical level.
It's a faith thing. You either have the faith to believe the Bible is Absolute/God's Word/Inerrant or the faith to believe that it's Inspired but fallible or the faith that it's complete hogwash. You can't PROVE anything about the Bible, only BELIEVE.
And in that case, I would say that it is in fact Subjective, (based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.). And that's just the beginning. Once you choose one of the 3 choices above to believe about the Bible, you then read it through the filter of your culture, gender, age, history, background, religious affiliation, education and experiences. (and hopefully the Holy Spirit)
Reader
05-22-2014, 11:39 AM
Of course bringing up scripture means nothing to people who don't believe the Bible, think it is a book of stories and nothing more, and so forth.
Jesus quoted scripture. Tell him that he can't prove anything about scripture......
Dichotomy Girl if someone is trying to decide whether or not a book is to be taken absolutely or subjectively I would imagine that the best way to come to the proper conclusion would be to go to author in this case God. As the bible is God's word why would it be illogical to see what the Bible has to say about itself and how it is to be understood? No one is saying proving the legitimacy of the Bible by the Bible that would be like trying using circular dating a (a faulty practice used by evolutionist). It would seem illogical to allow anyone but the author a book decide whether He meant what He said or not.
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 12:01 PM
Dichotomy Girl if someone is trying to decide whether or not a book is to be taken absolutely or subjectively I would imagine that the best way to come to the proper conclusion would be to go to author in this case God. As the bible is God's word why would it be illogical to see what the Bible has to say about itself and how it is to be understood? No one is saying proving the legitimacy of the Bible by the Bible that would be like trying using circular dating a (a faulty practice used by evolutionist). It would seem illogical to allow anyone but the author a book decide whether He meant what He said or not.
See, this is where I can't win though. ;)
As I would say that I HAVE gone to God, and prayed and studied. And yet, my conclusions are quite different from yours. Which would therefore most likely conclude you to believe that I'm either lying, deceived, clueless, possessed, a false prophet, mistaken or not really saved.
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 12:05 PM
Of course bringing up scripture means nothing to people who don't believe the Bible, think it is a book of stories and nothing more, and so forth.
Jesus quoted scripture. Tell him that he can't prove anything about scripture......
Sigh..see this forces me to play devil's advocate....
We weren't there. We don't KNOW that Jesus quoted scripture, we just KNOW that someone wrote down that He did.
Look, I'm not anti-Bible. I'm really not. I'm quite fond of it actually. I just don't worship the Bible. And I don't have a relationship with nor serve the Bible. I do however, believe it's ultimate purpose is to lead us to worship/relationship/service to Jesus, through the infilling of the Spirit.
Reader
05-22-2014, 12:13 PM
Let's look at this, then from your devil's advocate view.
It would appear that we shouldn't bother with anything at all in the Bible because all we know is that someone wrote it and we cannot know if anything is true.
Then, taking this, shouldn't one toss out any belief in Jesus because ultimately that is at least partly founded in what you read in the Bible? He was just a nice man that loved people. Oh- but wait- we really don't know if he did because we can't know if that part is true. Maybe he was really a mean person, throwing people out of the temple. Oh - but wait - we really don't know if that happened either.
How can one be fond of a book that you can't trust to mean a thing that it states?
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 12:25 PM
Let's look at this, then from your devil's advocate view.
It would appear that we shouldn't bother with anything at all in the Bible because all we know is that someone wrote it and we cannot know if anything is true.
Then, taking this, shouldn't one toss out any belief in Jesus because ultimately that is at least partly founded in what you read in the Bible? He was just a nice man that loved people. Oh- but wait- we really don't know if he did because we can't know if that part is true. Maybe he was really a mean person, throwing people out of the temple. Oh - but wait - we really don't know if that happened either.
How can one be fond of a book that you can't trust to mean a thing that it states?
I said that we can't KNOW, but that we can BELIEVE. That's what faith is. The very idea of faith is to believe in something that can't be proven. I believe in Jesus, I believe that he lives inside of me, and that he loves me. But I can't PROVE that to my Atheist husband.
I am fond of the Bible, because it taught me about Jesus. I don't KNOW that everything in the Bible is true. But I BELIEVE that many of the things are true, because the Bible led me to relationship with Jesus, through the indwelling Spirit. That's all faith, I can't prove that to anyone, but it's very very real to me.
Let me ask you this. (I'm borrowing this from a book I read years ago, I think maybe Rob Bell?). What's more important, that the Garden of Eden happened or that it happens? Whether it is literal or metaphor, it speaks to us, it teaches us, it gives us spiritual insight.
The truth is, I don't think I could worship a God who literally commanded the Israelites to commit genocide, or was OK with slavery, or didn't have a problem with women being raped or treated like Chattel.
Reader
05-22-2014, 12:31 PM
I am fond of the Bible, because it taught me about Jesus. I don't KNOW that everything in the Bible is true.
This is what I am attempting to say----you say the Bible taught you about Jesus and at the same time say you don't know that it is true. Then how do you know that the portions you have chosen to believe are really true? You may be basing your belief in Jesus on one of the untruths found there.
NotforSale
05-22-2014, 12:35 PM
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.
Careful; you're simplifying, something that contradicts Religion and is the actual truth. ;)
NotforSale
05-22-2014, 12:37 PM
Dichotomy Girl if someone is trying to decide whether or not a book is to be taken absolutely or subjectively I would imagine that the best way to come to the proper conclusion would be to go to author in this case God. As the bible is God's word why would it be illogical to see what the Bible has to say about itself and how it is to be understood? No one is saying proving the legitimacy of the Bible by the Bible that would be like trying using circular dating a (a faulty practice used by evolutionist). It would seem illogical to allow anyone but the author a book decide whether He meant what He said or not.
G-d is not the Author of the Bible; men (humans) are.
G-d is not the Author of the Bible; men (humans) are.
I disagree according to scripture the those men were moved by God as to what they were to write much like a person writing as another say speaks.
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 02:08 PM
This is what I am attempting to say----you say the Bible taught you about Jesus and at the same time say you don't know that it is true. Then how do you know that the portions you have chosen to believe are really true? You may be basing your belief in Jesus on one of the untruths found there.
Hmmm...let me try this....
The bible was a stepping stone. It pointed me towards Jesus, it gave me a thirst for something more. The Spirit drew me, and then filled me. The Bible doesn't need to be inerrant to do that. At its very least it's a historical document. (I do believe it to be inspired and sacred, if not infallible).
Do you believe that the Spirit of God cannot draw a person, and fill a person, if the Bible is not absolute (or if they don't believe the Bible to be Absolute)?
You are right, I might be completely 100% wrong in all my beliefs about Life, Jesus and the Bible. I know that, and I accept that, and therefore I try to keep mind open. (I mean, it completely freaks me out that the Pharisees, the most religious of the day, not only missed Jesus, but thought the was doing the work of satan!)
But I do my best to follow the leading of the Spirit. I try to keep it simple. When I'm not sure if something is right or wrong, and I'm not getting a strong spiritual signal, I try to stick to the greatest Two Commandments.
Look, I get that what I'm saying is to you a horrifying and most likely heretical way to live. But it's where I am.
ETA: This is where I miss the old faces around here. Those who can see past my unorthodox and scandalous ways, because they know me, and know what I've been through and where I've come from.
Reader
05-22-2014, 02:34 PM
I am certainly not horrified by your thoughts. What I have attempted to do is to have you see that when one picks and chooses what is true and what is not, how do you really know if the places you chose to believe really happened? Let's take one thing you said:
Do you believe that the Spirit of God cannot draw a person, and fill a person, if the Bible is not absolute (or if they don't believe the Bible to be Absolute)?
Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? Is it not from the Bible? If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true?
I am not putting you down. This is not personal. What I cannot understand is how one can decide this part is true and this is not. What is your standard for doing so- in other words, what do you use to determine this?
Praxeas
05-22-2014, 02:55 PM
G-d is not the Author of the Bible; men (humans) are.
God is the author. Men are the writers
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 03:19 PM
I am certainly not horrified by your thoughts. What I have attempted to do is to have you see that when one picks and chooses what is true and what is not, how do you really know if the places you chose to believe really happened? Let's take one thing you said:
Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? Is it not from the Bible? If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true?
I am not putting you down. This is not personal. What I cannot understand is how one can decide this part is true and this is not. What is your standard for doing so- in other words, what do you use to determine this?
Ok, lets take the Bible out of it for a minute. Mary Sue is not a Christian, and knows very little about Christianity. A friend invites her to Acme Christian Church. There a man preaches about Jesus, and Mary Sue thinks "wow, Jesus, if you are real, I would love to have a relationship with you".
A few days later, Mary Sue is praying at home alone in her bedroom, and all of a sudden something amazing she happens that she can't explain, as she is baptized in the Spirit.
A few days after that she comes out of the Grocery store and there is a pamphlet stuck under her windshield wipers. She see's that it's about Jesus, so she reads it, and it talks about how important it is to be Baptized, she feels in her heart that she would like to do this, and so calls the number of Gotham City Apostolic Church listed on the tract. She attends and is baptized in Jesus Name.
Now, I ask you this, would you call any of the 3 things used to draw her in, (A Pastor's Sermon, Personal Prayer, and religious literature) absolute truth and inerrant? Or would you say that God used the available people/items to make his will known?
A Sermon is not necessarily filled with Absolute Truth, it's certainly not inerrant or infallible. However, It CAN be inspired, and filled with sacred wisdom. And God most certainly can use ANYTHING to speak to and reach us.
What did people do in Jesus' time when the NT didn't exist? What about in the dark ages when only the Priests had access? When it wasn't even printed in the common language, or when most people couldn't read?
The Bible is a useful tool, but it's not God.
Reader
05-22-2014, 03:24 PM
But you have not addressed my question about the Bible. That is all the discussion is about- not the means by which a person comes to God or if that way is infallible.
I also have, in no manner whatsoever, equated the Bible as being God.
This was my inquiry:
Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? Is it not from the Bible? If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true?
I am not putting you down. This is not personal. What I cannot understand is how one can decide this part is true and this is not. What is your standard for doing so- in other words, what do you use to determine this?
How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story?
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 03:47 PM
But you have not addressed my question about the Bible. That is all the discussion is about- not the means by which a person comes to God or if that way is infallible.
I also have, in no manner whatsoever, equated the Bible as being God.
This was my inquiry:
How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story?
Ok, simple answers to your questions:
Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? It happened. I experienced it.
Is it not from the Bible? God drew before I ever opened a Bible. God filled me before I had any real knowledge of the Bible.
If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true? Again, I can simply say because it happened to me. Someone told me "Jesus is real. If you seek Him, you shall find Him." and I did.
How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story? I don't think of it that way. I do my best to filter everything through Holy Spirit. I read and I ask, "What does this mean? How does it apply to my life? Can I learn something from this? What's the historical and cultural context? Was this book (especially NT) addressing a particular problem / pagan practice / church issue?
Does that help?
NotforSale
05-22-2014, 04:08 PM
God is the author. Men are the writers
Prove it.
Reader
05-22-2014, 04:11 PM
Consider this- A woman hears that if she prays and seeks God, she will know if the book of mormon is true and of God. She has not read the book yet. She is told she will feel a burning in her bosom. She prays and feels the sensation.
This is similar to what you shared, but about a different belief system.
How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story? Your reply- I don't think of it that way. I do my best to filter everything through Holy Spirit. I read and I ask, "What does this mean? How does it apply to my life? Can I learn something from this? What's the historical and cultural context? Was this book (especially NT) addressing a particular problem / pagan practice / church issue?
It was sounding like that is how you looked at it. You seemed to have decided that things in it are not true (at least from how you replied in some posts). I believe you shared about not believing God told the Israelites to kill people, for instance. How do you arrive at determining that the Bible does not give a true account of it?
I am not questioning what happened to you or how you came to a relationship with God.
Dichotomy Girl
05-22-2014, 04:32 PM
Consider this- A woman hears that if she prays and seeks God, she will know if the book of mormon is true and of God. She has not read the book yet. She is told she will feel a burning in her bosom. She prays and feels the sensation.
This is similar to what you shared, but about a different belief system.
It was sounding like that is how you looked at it. You seemed to have decided that things in it are not true (at least from how you replied in some posts). I believe you shared about not believing God told the Israelites to kill people, for instance. How do you arrive at determining that the Bible does not give a true account of it?
I am not questioning what happened to you or how you came to a relationship with God.
I doubt you will like this answer, but basically, Cognitive Dissonance. If I believe that here is only one God, Jesus, and I believe that the OT accounts are all entirely true, then to me, it's like saying that Jesus used to be a racist, sexist, genocidal baby-killer. My husband, who was raised a Christian, and became an Atheist puts it like this, "Either God doesn't exist, or he's a ______" (pick an expletive)
Jesus said that there was neither slave nor free, male nor female, Jew nor gentile. The OT God, definitely played favorites. For me, it's much easier to believe that the historical accounts have been tainted by infallible humanity than to accept some of the actions in the Bible attributed to God.
NotforSale
05-22-2014, 04:33 PM
I disagree according to scripture the those men were moved by God as to what they were to write much like a person writing as another say speaks.
You can disagree all you want, but men wrote the Bible, and men decided which books would be placed within the Bible.
If G-d moved on those of the past, why doesn't G-d move on men today to write new Scriptures?
It's quite comical that we accept books written by a whore monger, an idolater, and a man whose heart had turned completely away from G-d. In today's Christian Religion, Solomon would be considered a total Heathen, not a candidate to write Holy Scriptures, nor a good example to upcoming Generations.
"Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.
For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the Lord commanded."
Hmmmmm....
Reader
05-22-2014, 04:48 PM
I doubt you will like this answer, but basically, Cognitive Dissonance. If I believe that here is only one God, Jesus, and I believe that the OT accounts are all entirely true, then to me, it's like saying that Jesus used to be a racist, sexist, genocidal baby-killer.
Those are pretty strong thoughts.
Jesus said that there was neither slave nor free, male nor female, Jew nor gentile. The OT God, definitely played favorites. For me, it's much easier to believe that the historical accounts have been tainted by infallible humanity than to accept some of the actions in the Bible attributed to God.
Paul wrote that about male/female, etc. But there are those that discount whatever Paul taught.
Do you have difficulty believing God called a group of people to reveal himself through in the Old Testament? That he gave them a land that others were living in and that many of those people were killed?
Might I ask how you do decide how God is, since you disbelieve accounts in the Old Testament?
n david
05-22-2014, 05:35 PM
What did people do in Jesus' time when the NT didn't exist?
They quoted David and the prophets. Most of the Apostle's messages were filled with references to the Psalms or prophets....which is in the Bible!
Praxeas
05-22-2014, 05:40 PM
Prove it.
lol..I should have asked that first since it was YOUR assertion God is NOT the author. You prove it
Praxeas
05-22-2014, 05:47 PM
You can disagree all you want, but men wrote the Bible, and men decided which books would be placed within the Bible.
That does not make God NOT the author.
Do you know how or why they decided certain books don't belong in the bible?
If G-d moved on those of the past, why doesn't G-d move on men today to write new Scriptures?
What difference does it make? Maybe God doesn't think we need more?
It's quite comical that we accept books written by a whore monger, an idolater, and a man whose heart had turned completely away from G-d.
In today's Christian Religion, Solomon would be considered a total Heathen, not a candidate to write Holy Scriptures, nor a good example to upcoming Generations.
You are assuming he wrote anything after becoming a "whore monger" and all that.
Pressing-On
05-22-2014, 05:55 PM
They quoted David and the prophets. Most of the Apostle's messages were filled with references to the Psalms or prophets....which is in the Bible!
Amen, the Book of Romans is replete with OT references that Paul used to show the Jews that God had not abandoned Israel and he answers the hard questions about the relation between Judaism and Christianity, the authority of the scripture, and the role of the church. The Book of Romans seeks to ground the gospel in Israel's sacred texts. It an amazing book along with the Book of Hebrews.
Dichotomy Girl
05-23-2014, 07:10 AM
Those are pretty strong thoughts.
Yeah. I went through a very dark time years back. I never lost the belief that God existed, but for a long time I didn't think he was good. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And then I thought of that verse in Colossians that talks about Jesus being the Image of the invisible God. And I thought of Jesus being the ultimate revelation of God. So when I had "God is horrible/mean/capricious/cruel/arbitrary" thoughts, I would filter those through the words and actions of Jesus. And things attributed to God that seemed to not match Jesus' Character. Well, I kind of filed them off to the side.
Those actions that I mentioned that happened in the OT, they just seem completely out of character for Jesus.
Paul wrote that about male/female, etc. But there are those that discount whatever Paul taught.
Do you have difficulty believing God called a group of people to reveal himself through in the Old Testament? That he gave them a land that others were living in and that many of those people were killed?
Might I ask how you do decide how God is, since you disbelieve accounts in the Old Testament?
You are right, it was Paul saying it, but I think Jesus showed it by his actions, with the Samaritan woman, the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion, etc.
I don't necessarily have problems believing that God called a group of people and set them apart. I don't have a problem believing that he gave them a land all for their own. I don't have a problem believing that they killed to get that land. But I do find it hard to believe that it was God that commanded it.
I read an article by Greg Boyd years back, that was the closest anyone ever came to giving an acceptable ex plantation. I tried to find it, and couldn't, but I found this one and found it very interesting:
http://reknew.org/2009/07/jesus-repudiation-of-old-testament-violence-2/
votivesoul
05-23-2014, 07:50 AM
You know, there is more revealed about Jesus in the New Testament being the executor of God's wrath and vengeance than at first glance.
While we see the gentle (not soft) loving Savior willingly sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world, we also read verses like the following:
Luke 19:27,
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
This is a parable in which the Lord teaches that the Jewish people of Jerusalem, specifically the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees, were going to be destroyed. This happened in 70 AD, nearly forty years after the Lord ascended to heaven, in which the Roman empire starved out and nearly annihilated the entire city. Murder, cannibalism, and other unmentionable debaucheries took place within the walls during the siege. After the siege, the Romans crucified THOUSANDS.
This all happened why? Because Jerusalem didn't know the time of her royal visitation by Messiah Jesus.
Additionally, Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10,
7 ...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
It is the Lord Jesus of the New Testament (and not the God of the Old) that will avenge the Father with fire upon all those who don't know God and don't obey the Gospel centered around His Son's life.
In fact, we see that Christ's vengeance is so terrible, all who suffer it will experience "everlasting destruction".
Further, in Revelation 6 we read of the first 6 seals on the scroll being opened by none other than Jesus Christ. It is He, through the opening of the scrolls, that unleashes the following:
Four horsemen who have the power to "conquer", to wage "war" and take "peace" from the earth, utterly destroy the global economy, and finally, to kill 1/4 of the planet's population at the time (Jesus indirectly responsible for close to 2 billion deaths? What?).
And this isn't even all. At the opening of the sixth seal, the great day of the Lamb's wrath is unleashed on the world, as if the first four seals weren't bad enough.
And if one continues on through Revelation, one sees Jesus trampling underfoot as if in a wine-press the fierceness of God's wrath, until the blood of His enemies drench the skirt of His robes. We see Him waging the battle of Armageddon, in which there is so much death and destruction, we are given a gruesome image in which a sea of blood nearly six feet deep covers the valley just outside the city of Jerusalem. We also read of the Lord presiding over the smoke of the eternal torment in the lake which burns with fire all them who took the mark of the beast.
So what happened to the New Testament depiction of Christ as this all (and only merciful) lover and lowly friend to sinners?
Sorry, that is only half the picture. The rest of the story is the avenging Christ, who shall rule with a rod of iron and not spare His enemies until they are made His footstool, until He has thoroughly and utterly conquered the world in righteous indignation.
Only until we see and accept both sides of the equation can we get an accurate understanding of who and what the Lord Jesus, the Son and Incarnation of the God of the Old Testament, is.
Lafon
05-23-2014, 08:16 AM
I am mindful of this.....
Romans 11:22 KJV
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .
Aaron. It is 2 extremes that we see here. If you dont accept the love of Almighty God, you will get His wrath in return. Your point is very clear.
votivesoul
05-23-2014, 08:37 AM
Romans 2:6-11,
6 [God] will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Are these verses subjective to one's own culturally (and etc.) understood interpretation?
I don't see how. They are clear (right, Sean?) and are pretty self-evident, straight-forward, without wiggle room.
The only subjectivity present is the kind brought into the Word (called eisogesis) rallied forth by a carnal mind that doesn't want to/refuses to believe what has been penned.
So many people, as Simon Peter warned, will wrest the words of Paul to their own destruction, rather than simply agreeing that what Paul has written is the commandment of the Lord.
I would like to share my perspective on death right here if I may...
We see death as some horrible injustice that God has permitted on the human race, but that is not at all how it should be viewed. It is just as much the will of God for us to die as it is to be born. I have a sister in law with stage 4 cancer that loves God and has been born again practically all her life. (she is 57). I try to reassure family that does not understand why God is so "unfair", that it is Gods will for ALL of us to die in the appointed time. If we dont understand that, we are not understanding the point of the purpose of the resurrection of Jesus. We were never meant to be here on earth forever, but this life is actually a "birthing room" for the afterlife. We must be looking forward to our eternal reward of putting off this wretched, sinful, fallen,failing body to redeem it for an uncorruptible one. I am actually excited about my new resurrected body. And trust me, we(some of us) will be trading it in sooner than we realize!
Romans 2:6-11,
Are these verses subjective to one's own culturally (and etc.) understood interpretation?
I don't see how. They are clear (right, Sean?) and are pretty self-evident, straight-forward, without wiggle room.
The only subjectivity present is the kind brought into the Word (called eisogesis) rallied forth by a carnal mind that doesn't want to/refuses to believe what has been penned.
So many people, as Simon Peter warned, will wrest the words of Paul to their own destruction, rather than simply agreeing that what Paul has written is the commandment of the Lord.
Romans 2:6-11
King James Version (KJV)
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
We will die, whether we are good or evil. It is a homecoming for the righteous but a disaster for the wicked. This is the crystal clear truth for all to realize.
votivesoul
05-23-2014, 08:45 AM
I would like to share my perspective on death right here if I may...
We see death as some horrible injustice that God has permitted on the human race, but that is not at all how it should be viewed. It is just as much the will of God for us to die as it is to be born. I have a sister in law with stage 4 cancer that loves God and has been born again practically all her life. (she is 57). I try to reassure family that does not understand why God is so "unfair", that it is Gods will for ALL of us to die in the appointed time. If we dont understand that, we are not understanding the point of the purpose of the resurrection of Jesus. We were never meant to be here on earth forever, but this life is actually a "birthing room" for the afterlife. We must be looking forward to our eternal reward of putting off this wretched, sinful, fallen,failing body to redeem it for an uncorruptible one. I am actually excited about my new resurrected body. And trust me, we(some of us) will be trading it in sooner than we realize!
For some, the "sting of death is sin". The grave has complete mastery over them, and as such, the idea of lights out is terrifying to the max.
For others, death is swallowed up in the victory of "our Lord Jesus Christ". It holds no sting. For them, to die is gain.
Yeah. I went through a very dark time years back. I never lost the belief that God existed, but for a long time I didn't think he was good. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And then I thought of that verse in Colossians that talks about Jesus being the Image of the invisible God. And I thought of Jesus being the ultimate revelation of God. So when I had "God is horrible/mean/capricious/cruel/arbitrary" thoughts, I would filter those through the words and actions of Jesus. And things attributed to God that seemed to not match Jesus' Character. Well, I kind of filed them off to the side.
Those actions that I mentioned that happened in the OT, they just seem completely out of character for Jesus.
You are right, it was Paul saying it, but I think Jesus showed it by his actions, with the Samaritan woman, the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion, etc.
I don't necessarily have problems believing that God called a group of people and set them apart. I don't have a problem believing that he gave them a land all for their own. I don't have a problem believing that they killed to get that land. But I do find it hard to believe that it was God that commanded it.
I read an article by Greg Boyd years back, that was the closest anyone ever came to giving an acceptable ex plantation. I tried to find it, and couldn't, but I found this one and found it very interesting:
http://reknew.org/2009/07/jesus-repudiation-of-old-testament-violence-2/
I read Greg Boyd's book "Is God To Blame?" recently. Very good! It really helps to look at life through Jesus.
Dichotomy Girl
05-23-2014, 12:11 PM
You know, there is more revealed about Jesus in the New Testament being the executor of God's wrath and vengeance than at first glance.
While we see the gentle (not soft) loving Savior willingly sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world, we also read verses like the following:
Luke 19:27,
This is a parable in which the Lord teaches that the Jewish people of Jerusalem, specifically the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees, were going to be destroyed. This happened in 70 AD, nearly forty years after the Lord ascended to heaven, in which the Roman empire starved out and nearly annihilated the entire city. Murder, cannibalism, and other unmentionable debaucheries took place within the walls during the siege. After the siege, the Romans crucified THOUSANDS.
This all happened why? Because Jerusalem didn't know the time of her royal visitation by Messiah Jesus.
Additionally, Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10,
It is the Lord Jesus of the New Testament (and not the God of the Old) that will avenge the Father with fire upon all those who don't know God and don't obey the Gospel centered around His Son's life.
In fact, we see that Christ's vengeance is so terrible, all who suffer it will experience "everlasting destruction".
Further, in Revelation 6 we read of the first 6 seals on the scroll being opened by none other than Jesus Christ. It is He, through the opening of the scrolls, that unleashes the following:
Four horsemen who have the power to "conquer", to wage "war" and take "peace" from the earth, utterly destroy the global economy, and finally, to kill 1/4 of the planet's population at the time (Jesus indirectly responsible for close to 2 billion deaths? What?).
And this isn't even all. At the opening of the sixth seal, the great day of the Lamb's wrath is unleashed on the world, as if the first four seals weren't bad enough.
And if one continues on through Revelation, one sees Jesus trampling underfoot as if in a wine-press the fierceness of God's wrath, until the blood of His enemies drench the skirt of His robes. We see Him waging the battle of Armageddon, in which there is so much death and destruction, we are given a gruesome image in which a sea of blood nearly six feet deep covers the valley just outside the city of Jerusalem. We also read of the Lord presiding over the smoke of the eternal torment in the lake which burns with fire all them who took the mark of the beast.
So what happened to the New Testament depiction of Christ as this all (and only merciful) lover and lowly friend to sinners?
Sorry, that is only half the picture. The rest of the story is the avenging Christ, who shall rule with a rod of iron and not spare His enemies until they are made His footstool, until He has thoroughly and utterly conquered the world in righteous indignation.
Only until we see and accept both sides of the equation can we get an accurate understanding of who and what the Lord Jesus, the Son and Incarnation of the God of the Old Testament, is.
And would you worship a god like this because you love him or because you are afraid not to?
How can the same God that commands us to love and forgive our enemies, kill and torture His? It would give ultimate meaning to he phrase "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"
I'm not talking about things that we don't understand, or things that happened because we live in a fallen world where we are given free will. I get that bad things happen to good people, etc. It's when things that we universally acknowledge as being evil are called Holy because someone says that God told them to do it. If God wanted to give the Jews the promised land, and wanted to clear out the people in it. God could have have done it himself. He could have created a new land out of nothing, and placed in the middle of all the other populated lands. He could have made an island rise up out of the sea....
And would you worship a god like this because you love him or because you are afraid not to?
How can the same God that commands us to love and forgive our enemies, kill and torture His? It would give ultimate meaning to he phrase "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"
I'm not talking about things that we don't understand, or things that happened because we live in a fallen world where we are given free will. I get that bad things happen to good people, etc. It's when things that we universally acknowledge as being evil are called Holy because someone says that God told them to do it. If God wanted to give the Jews the promised land, and wanted to clear out the people in it. God could have have done it himself. He could have created a new land out of nothing, and placed in the middle of all the other populated lands. He could have made an island rise up out of the sea....
It seems as though God in human form took a whole different approach than the God of creation and the Old Testament. At least God does not operate now the way he did in the Old Testament. The thing I wonder about is, Israel as his chosen people never really got beyond doing the clean up of the promised land and actually begin to spread the truth around their world. Seems like the world was more of any influence on them. Which of course is the lesson for us.
Timmy
05-23-2014, 01:09 PM
Well, I can't wait to see the New New Testament. :)
Well, I can't wait to see the New New Testament. :)
Right, we're not quite there yet are we after all this time?
Lafon
05-23-2014, 03:49 PM
Recognizing, and acknowledging,
1.) that God's word is truth (see Psalm 119:142, 151 & John 17:17), and
2.) that "it is written"... "I am the LORD, I change not:..." (Malachi 3:6), and
3.) that the Lord Jesus Christ is that SAME God (see John 8:58), and
4.) that the writer of the New Testament book of Hebrews was inspired of God (see II Peter 1:20-21) to write, advising us that "Jesus Christ (is) the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8), then tell me, I humbly implore thee to think on, and answer the following:
What right, privilege, moral or legal grounds, does any imperfect, fallible mortal, possess, or been granted, to question that which God does? Does not the ONLY "sovereign" God, the Creator of all things in heaven and the earth, possess the AUTHORITY to do what He chooses, and in the manner of His choosing? Absolutely!
I would caution everyone, yea, ALL, to pause and prayerfully contemplate what the "sovereignity" of God encompasses before they charge Him wrongly such as I witness being done here!
God is our Judge; NOT the "other way around," for it will be He who judges us; at which time He will use the laws and commandments He caused to be written in the Scriptures as the basis for such judgment ( and please take note: the reference passages I listed above are IN those Scriptures).
Just my thoughts on the matter for what they might be worth. God Bless!
KeptByTheWord
05-23-2014, 04:04 PM
Who determines the correct interpretation and application of scripture, and what makes them the correct, definitive, and absolute right with all others being wrong?
mfblume
05-23-2014, 08:10 PM
Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.
Not sure what everyone else said about your words, but just because everyone has an interpretation does not mean God intended it to be subjective. Iow, it is not necessarily true that God intended everyone to have their personal interpretation just because people do.
Who determines the correct interpretation and application of scripture, and what makes them the correct, definitive, and absolute right with all others being wrong?
[you]?
:nah
Praxeas
05-23-2014, 08:53 PM
The Pope
mfblume
05-23-2014, 08:56 PM
Who determines the correct interpretation and application of scripture, and what makes them the correct, definitive, and absolute right with all others being wrong?
Each one must determine it for themselves, with the input of a multitude of counselors, wherein is safety, since everyone must be fully persuaded in their own minds. With a healthy outlook that our souls are on the line, and eternity is on the line, in godly fear, we should be very careful and sincere as can be. And approach God in faith to help us understand by the leading of His Spirit. And when others claim a different interpretation than the one we have, we keep in mind that they may be right and may be used of God to correct us, or they may be wrong. Either way, we tread carefully about this and have faith that God will direct. We always maintain carefulness and openness for correction while not falling for anyone who convincingly presents their views.
shazeep
05-23-2014, 09:08 PM
very nice
and, ha touche`(shazeep). that is just poor communication, maybe; i am always open to other interpretations, even if i might pick at them. heck, i'm pretty convinced that the world is getting worse lol.
i think that 'the correct interpretation and application of scripture, and what makes them the correct, definitive, and absolute right with all others being wrong' belongs solely to the Holy Spirit, and that none of us needs an intercessory there. at the same time, when i see what strikes me as apostasy posted, i would consider it irresponsible to not reflect where Scripture might disagree, and let the reader determine for themselves. And welcome any further rebuttal.
i was raised Pentecostal, more or less, and most of us would admit that the movement attracts a rather legalistic contingent that may be said to represent the movement as a whole, at least to an extent. judgement is rife. this does not mean that these people do not fear God and love Christ, but that any approach has its pitfalls, and these are mirrored in the popular opinion of the movement.
shazeep
05-23-2014, 09:10 PM
to me Scripture is a mirror, that reveals the soul who reads it to others by the interpretation.
Praxeas
05-23-2014, 11:57 PM
How do I interpret everything written in this topic?
Well to begin with I have to understand grammar. Of course it helps that you too understand grammar
I also have to know who is writing, to whom and when in order to understand certain figures of speech or cultural references.
Lastly I have to read what you each say in context.
Now, for the record, in my experience I see people misinterpret what others say here and in other forums often because they ignored the above "rules'
These rules of interpretation are called Hermeneutics.
Timmy
05-24-2014, 12:02 AM
Each one must determine it for themselves, with the input of a multitude of counselors, wherein is safety, since everyone must be fully persuaded in their own minds. With a healthy outlook that our souls are on the line, and eternity is on the line, in godly fear, we should be very careful and sincere as can be. And approach God in faith to help us understand by the leading of His Spirit. And when others claim a different interpretation than the one we have, we keep in mind that they may be right and may be used of God to correct us, or they may be wrong. Either way, we tread carefully about this and have faith that God will direct. We always maintain carefulness and openness for correction while not falling for anyone who convincingly presents their views.
Everyone should just let the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth. Problem solved.
votivesoul
05-24-2014, 04:23 AM
And would you worship a god like this because you love him or because you are afraid not to?
How can the same God that commands us to love and forgive our enemies, kill and torture His? It would give ultimate meaning to he phrase "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"
I'm not talking about things that we don't understand, or things that happened because we live in a fallen world where we are given free will. I get that bad things happen to good people, etc. It's when things that we universally acknowledge as being evil are called Holy because someone says that God told them to do it. If God wanted to give the Jews the promised land, and wanted to clear out the people in it. God could have have done it himself. He could have created a new land out of nothing, and placed in the middle of all the other populated lands. He could have made an island rise up out of the sea....
I am fully reconciled to and love the very God who saved me, even though in times past, He unleashed a terribly fury upon others, and will do so again. I fear Him, as well, as well I should.
Before God was Savior, however, He was Creator.
He has absolute, SOVEREIGN control and right over everything He creates, just as much as an author does over his or her novel.
You may think it immoral or unjust, but note again what Brother Lafon has written.
Do you let your child lecture you on your judgment as a parent? Or do you set rules and boundaries for your child that you yourself do not obey because they do not apply to you?
Are you then unjust and immoral because you sovereignly supercede the rules, obligations, and boundaries you place on the child of your own creation?
Further, you have to look into the past a bit more to see why God sent Israel into Palestine with a sword. It wasn't genocide. It was capital punishment for inhuman wickedness on a national level.
And not just subjective wickedness, but actual wickedness, up to and including human sacrifice, especially of children.
If someone in your neighborhood kidnapped your child and burned him/her alive in a Satanic ritual, would you want ultimate justice?
Of course you would! And would you judge the police, prosecutors, judge, and jury immoral murderers if they sentence that person to death? Would you think that the man who pulled the switch or injected the chemical was an outrageous savage?
Not at all. You would see them all as righteous instruments of justice.
So why is God and the nation of Israel judged so unfairly? They were, in principle, the exact same thing.
votivesoul
05-24-2014, 09:31 AM
Who determines the correct interpretation and application of scripture, and what makes them the correct, definitive, and absolute right with all others being wrong?
Isn't obvious?
We are the ones, individually speaking, who determine "the correct interpretation and application of scripture".
We have free will, don't we?
We speak what we believe. We consciously choose what we believe, doctrinally speaking. We take a position on any verse of Scripture. But we wouldn't take such a position if we didn't think it was correct, would we?
What makes us correct is if and when the Lord vindicates our interpretation and application. This is what the Lord said vindicated His teachings.
If the Lord does not so vindicate, then the interpretation and application was and is wrong.
votivesoul
05-24-2014, 09:47 AM
I am fully reconciled to and love the very God who saved me, even though in times past, He unleashed a terribly fury upon others, and will do so again. I fear Him, as well, as well I should.
Before God was Savior, however, He was Creator.
He has absolute, SOVEREIGN control and right over everything He creates, just as much as an author does over his or her novel.
You may think it immoral or unjust, but note again what Brother Lafon has written.
Do you let your child lecture you on your judgment as a parent? Or do you set rules and boundaries for your child that you yourself do not obey because they do not apply to you?
Are you then unjust and immoral because you sovereignly supercede the rules, obligations, and boundaries you place on the child of your own creation?
Further, you have to look into the past a bit more to see why God sent Israel into Palestine with a sword. It wasn't genocide. It was capital punishment for inhuman wickedness on a national level.
And not just subjective wickedness, but actual wickedness, up to and including human sacrifice, especially of children.
If someone in your neighborhood kidnapped your child and burned him/her alive in a Satanic ritual, would you want ultimate justice?
Of course you would! And would you judge the police, prosecutors, judge, and jury immoral murderers if they sentence that person to death? Would you think that the man who pulled the switch or injected the chemical was an outrageous savage?
Not at all. You would see them all as righteous instruments of justice.
So why is God and the nation of Israel judged so unfairly? They were, in principle, the exact same thing.
Imagine this speculative scenario:
You grow up in a brutal orphanage. You see no hope of ever getting out. You own nothing, and no one there but the other orphans care a lick about you.
In time, you learn that before they died, your parents left you a home to live in a state far away.
When you turn 18, you leave the orphanage and make your way to the home left for you.
When you get there, you find it overrun with gang-banging squatters who have turned into a crack house. You find out young girls are being prostituted in and out of the house, that people are dying of drug overdoses, that some have been murdered there, and who knows what else.
You are incensed. Your promised home, something you've never had your entire life, after a life of misery and despair, lies in near ruins.
What would you do, to what extremes would you go to, to see the home regained and transformed into a proper domicile?
If the mayor and police chief of the city tell you that they will raid the house, SWAT teams and all, and take down the drug dealers, will you stop them? Tell them no?
If when the police arrive and raid the home, 9 out of 10 of the drug dealing pimps and thugs get killed in the battle, are you going to mourn and weep over them and judge the police as unfair?
Or are you going to thank the mayor and police chief for finally giving you your long desired home?
Get the illustration?
The mayor is God, the police chief is the "captain of the Lord of Hosts", your parents who left you the house are Jacob and Rachel, the orphanage is Egypt, and you are Israel.
Now, I realize this only goes so far. The scope is massively different. But in principle, the idea is a parallel.
Sin, in all of its forms, is an offense to God. You must get a revelation of what it means for God to be holy. The wages of sin is death. Every human on the planet, has a law of sin in their members, active or not. All people, even children, will grow up and into sin. They will default their own eternal life and separate themselves from God, eventually. It IS GOING TO happen.
For God to order the deaths of sinners like the Philistines or Canaanites, or etc. is not some horrendous immoral act of God. It is the base line requirement for their sins. All the laws about capital punishment and etc. and any other instances in the Old or New Testament in which God commands the death of someone, is just.
Your sins, my sins, the sins of your neighbor next door, all demand justice against an eternal, holy God. The fact that God, by grace, in the "fulness of time" sent forth His Son to be the Savior of the whole world, to grant remission of sins that are past, present, and future through His death, burial, and resurrection, is such an awesome display of COMPASSION and LOVE, it boggles the mind that we who call ourselves Christians don't comprehend it better.
We who were dead in trespasses, aliens and foreigners to the covenant of promise, deserving only of divine wrath, have had the HIGH privilege and blessing of getting to meet the Lord, receive His Spirit, and be promised an eternal life in a joy-filled, beautify kingdom which has no end.
And all of that, yes, all of that, and so much more, was, and is given to us by *gasp* the God of the Old Testament.
mfblume
05-24-2014, 09:49 AM
Everyone should just let the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth. Problem solved.
You always whittle the actual point I made down to something less. ;)
Timmy makes it so even a caveman can understand it....LOL
(That was my favorite one)...LOL
mfblume
05-24-2014, 12:25 PM
Timmy makes it so even a caveman can understand it....LOL
(That was my favorite one)...LOL
But not a fair translation.
Timmy
05-24-2014, 01:06 PM
You always whittle the actual point I made down to something less. ;)
You're welcome. LOL!
Timmy
05-24-2014, 01:07 PM
But not a fair translation.
Actually, I wasn't really paraphrasing your post. I was improving it. (hehe) But seriously. If everyone would let the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth, as the Bible promises, wouldn't everyone believe the same thing?
Or is this one of those "God's logic isn't man's logic" kind of things. ;)
shazeep
05-24-2014, 01:19 PM
Isn't obvious?
We are the ones, individually speaking, who determine "the correct interpretation and application of scripture".
We have free will, don't we?
We speak what we believe. We consciously choose what we believe, doctrinally speaking. We take a position on any verse of Scripture. But we wouldn't take such a position if we didn't think it was correct, would we?
What makes us correct is if and when the Lord vindicates our interpretation and application. This is what the Lord said vindicated His teachings.
If the Lord does not so vindicate, then the interpretation and application was and is wrong.nice
.
The truth is, I don't think I could worship a God who literally commanded the Israelites to commit genocide, or was OK with slavery, or didn't have a problem with women being raped or treated like Chattel.
Agreed.
mfblume
05-24-2014, 01:44 PM
I think some folks need a fear of God. lol.
Sounds like the world's recent arguments against God, here. The recent barrage of debate has been to believe there is a God, and to accept Scripture as His Word, but to criticize Him for what He does.
What gall.
mfblume
05-24-2014, 01:44 PM
Actually, I wasn't really paraphrasing your post. I was improving it. (hehe) But seriously. If everyone would let the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth, as the Bible promises, wouldn't everyone believe the same thing?
Or is this one of those "God's logic isn't man's logic" kind of things. ;)
In time, yes.
shazeep
05-24-2014, 02:20 PM
well, i think that 'everyone believing the same thing' ignores that we are all different, just as each situation is different.
mfblume
05-24-2014, 02:31 PM
well, i think that 'everyone believing the same thing' ignores that we are all different, just as each situation is different.
That sounds like saying we all should not believe the same thing because we are each a different being and species than the other. . Commonality in belief does nothing against individuality., Words lose all meaning when TRUTH is subjective. There is no truth in that case.
This is where philosophy overshadows reality.
Timmy
05-24-2014, 04:38 PM
In time, yes.
LOL!
mfblume
05-24-2014, 05:31 PM
LOL!
Think lots of things are funny, huh? :)
votivesoul
05-25-2014, 02:19 AM
Agreed.
If God is going to be accused of genocidal mania, permissive of rape, incest, and all the other evils mentioned in this post, I would like to see some Scriptural proof in which God commands and commends the very things He's being accused of.
I have already shown how the conquest of Canaan was not genocide, by any definition of the word, but rather was justice against a wicked and immoral people at the national level.
Nobody seems to mind how many Germans and Japanese we sent to Hell less than 70 years ago.
But when people read of Israel righteously invading a foreign land to do the same thing as we did in WWII, and bring about a similar justice at the command of God, then everyone gets all bent out of shape and thinks of it as some great evil unworthy of the God they say they want to worship.
shazeep
05-25-2014, 06:54 AM
That sounds like saying we all should not believe the same thing because we are each a different being and species than the other. . Commonality in belief does nothing against individuality., Words lose all meaning when TRUTH is subjective. There is no truth in that case.
This is where philosophy overshadows reality.i'm seeing a reflection here with our definitions of 'worship,' which has a different definition than 'follow' to us. We might all believe in the same thing, the Good News, and yet may understand or practice this in quite different ways, and still be led by the Spirit. We even have parables for this.
I believe it may be a central function of forgiveness, as reality at least can be quite subjective--I think Einstein even proved this.
One honors a certain day, and another honors every day; but all do it to the Lord paraphrased?
shazeep
05-25-2014, 07:01 AM
If God is going to be accused of genocidal mania, permissive of rape, incest, and all the other evils mentioned in this post, I would like to see some Scriptural proof in which God commands and commends the very things He's being accused of.
I have already shown how the conquest of Canaan was not genocide, by any definition of the word, but rather was justice against a wicked and immoral people at the national level.
Nobody seems to mind how many Germans and Japanese we sent to Hell less than 70 years ago.
But when people read of Israel righteously invading a foreign land to do the same thing as we did in WWII, and bring about a similar justice at the command of God, then everyone gets all bent out of shape and thinks of it as some great evil unworthy of the God they say they want to worship....disregarding that we are not in that dispensation, and that those stories are not being retold in approval, but to illuminate some raw truth. In each of those stories of rape or incest are central points that seem to be being missed? I mean, we have stories about people under siege eating their own children, too--doesn't mean God recommends it.
Timmy
05-25-2014, 09:13 AM
Think lots of things are funny, huh? :)
Well, sometimes it's either that or run away screaming. LOL!
...disregarding that we are not in that dispensation, and that those stories are not being retold in approval, but to illuminate some raw truth. In each of those stories of rape or incest are central points that seem to be being missed? I mean, we have stories about people under siege eating their own children, too--doesn't mean God recommends it.
Good points you make! The world was a rough place back then and life was violent at times, just as it still is in some places. Even if Israel had marched into the promised land unopposed they probably would have had to eventually fight to defend themselves and their territory. Of course the people that they did not eliminate were always a problem for them.
votivesoul
05-25-2014, 01:06 PM
...disregarding that we are not in that dispensation, and that those stories are not being retold in approval, but to illuminate some raw truth. In each of those stories of rape or incest are central points that seem to be being missed? I mean, we have stories about people under siege eating their own children, too--doesn't mean God recommends it.
Absolutely correct. God's silence or lack of immediate retributive action upon all sin everywhere is not a sign of His approval or commendation, but rather an act of HIS MERCY.
If God requited every person for their sins the moment they sinned, there wouldn't be a human race around to sin.
votivesoul
05-25-2014, 01:08 PM
Good points you make! The world was a rough place back then and life was violent at times, just as it still is in some places. Even if Israel had marched into the promised land unopposed they probably would have had to eventually fight to defend themselves and their territory. Of course the people that they did not eliminate were always a problem for them.
I am trying to be careful with my words, but the testimony of Scripture is clear. A certain someone HATES Israel and her Seed, and will stop at nothing to demonize her and her history in the eyes of the world so the Messiah that sprang from her is likewise rejected.
jfrog
05-25-2014, 02:02 PM
If God is going to be accused of genocidal mania, permissive of rape, incest, and all the other evils mentioned in this post, I would like to see some Scriptural proof in which God commands and commends the very things He's being accused of.
I have already shown how the conquest of Canaan was not genocide, by any definition of the word, but rather was justice against a wicked and immoral people at the national level.
Nobody seems to mind how many Germans and Japanese we sent to Hell less than 70 years ago.
But when people read of Israel righteously invading a foreign land to do the same thing as we did in WWII, and bring about a similar justice at the command of God, then everyone gets all bent out of shape and thinks of it as some great evil unworthy of the God they say they want to worship.
Being interpreted:
"God is good and just so all his wars and commands must be good and just"
If God is going to be accused of genocidal mania, permissive of rape, incest, and all the other evils mentioned in this post, I would like to see some Scriptural proof in which God commands and commends the very things He's being accused of.
I have already shown how the conquest of Canaan was not genocide, by any definition of the word, but rather was justice against a wicked and immoral people at the national level.
Nobody seems to mind how many Germans and Japanese we sent to Hell less than 70 years ago.
But when people read of Israel righteously invading a foreign land to do the same thing as we did in WWII, and bring about a similar justice at the command of God, then everyone gets all bent out of shape and thinks of it as some great evil unworthy of the God they say they want to worship.
Of course, no one here condones the Holocaust.
I believe this should be taken more metaphorically than literally. That's just my opinion and I'm sure you don't agree but I'm just being honest...
votivesoul
05-25-2014, 06:28 PM
Being interpreted:
"God is good and just so all his wars and commands must be good and just"
Getting caught on Euthrypho's horns, eh, jfrog?
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