Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[RunningOnFaith]

Thomas Fudge's "Christianity without the Cross" has been the subject of much discussion on AFF down through the years. Some my be interested to learn that Fudge has written a new book about the UPC.

Heretics and Politics: Theology, Power, and Perception in the Last Days of CBC

Blurb:
The United Pentecostal Church-sponsored Conquerors Bible College was founded in Portland, Oregon in 1953. It closed abruptly in 1983. The denomination attributed the failure of the college to financial causes. Heretics and Politics argues that the financial crisis at CBC was rooted in theological controversy, church politics, conflicting models of education, and sustained suspicions of heresy. In seeking to delineate the several factors which destroyed CBC, historian Thomas A. Fudge has looked closely at the context, critically assessed a wide range of surviving documents, and taken into account the diversity of oral history. The narrative is neither an institutional history nor a biographical account. Instead, it explores the challenge of formal education within the UPC and evaluates the politics of change within that denomination in the Pacific Northwest. Both issues are assessed through the prism of CBC. The story of the last days of CBC illuminates important developments in the Pacific Northwest. The story is told against the broader canvas of events transpiring within American religious history. Heretics and Politics is the first book to deal with any aspect of the history of CBC. Its probing narrative chronicles both institutional upheaval and personal tragedy.

[Disciple4life]

Finally Fudge came out with a new book!!! YES!! Now we all have something new to fight about!!!!! :happydance

[Disciple4life]

I pulled this off of another thread.

Thomas Fudge was a member of the United Pentecostal Church from 1964 to 1984. He worked in churches in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia in Canada, and in Oregon, Washington and Idaho in the United States.

His early studies were taken at Conquerors Bible College in Portland, Oregon.

He lists among his mentors and significant spiritual and theological influences, former United Pentecostal Church ministers C.H. Yadon and Don Fisher, as well as his father James G. Fudge who is presently an ordained minister in the United Pentecostal Church.

Subsequent to 1984 he has worked for the American Baptist Church, the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Evangelical Covenant Church, the United Methodist Church and the Anglican Church in New Zealand. He has several years of ministerial experience and previously served as pastor of the Church of our Redeemer in Oregon.

[bkstokes]

I liked how Fudge described the difference between one steppers and 3 steppers in his first book.

[aegsm76]

Fudge reminds me of a scientist who writes out his hypothesis, then sets out trying to find the proof by throwing out everything that disagrees with it...

[Reader]

Aegsm76, have you read the book?

[Disciple4life]

I think Dr. Fudge has a point of view. It differs from the position of the UPCI. It looks like he wants to get the word out that there is a difference of opinion on certain doctrines/teachings/views.

Looking at the footnotes on Christianity Without The Cross it is hard to believe that he didn't document properly where he got his information.

[aegsm76]

Yes, for CWOC, but not the latest.
As someone who also had a very good inside track to what happened at CBC, I stand by my opinion of his latest "tempest in a teapot" book.

[Disciple4life]

Yes, for CWOC, but not the latest.
As someone who also had a very good inside track to what happened at CBC, I stand by my opinion of his latest "tempest in a teapot" book.

Well I would like to hear you thoughts on the matter. Care to share?

[Reader]

How can you say that when you have no clue what he wrote in the CBC book?

[Disciple4life]

Well I received my copy of the book today. I probably won't finish it for a couple of weeks.

I start moving this weekend and hopeful I will be done by the end of next week.

[CC1]

I am not sure a tiny UPC Bible College closing is worthy of a book but now that it is written I will be interested in reading it.

I would have preferred a book that covered all of the UPCI Bible Colleges with a look at their histories and fates.

[crakjak]

I am not sure a tiny UPC Bible College closing is worthy of a book but now that it is written I will be interested in reading it.

I would have preferred a book that covered all of the UPCI Bible Colleges with a look at their histories and fates.

Yeah, I kinda thought the same thing, but I ordered the book anyhow!!

[Reader]

I am not sure a tiny UPC Bible College closing is worthy of a book but now that it is written I will be interested in reading it.

It would appear that because Fudge attended CBC and was there when it closed is one reason. It isn't a history of the college and no other UPC college was closed due to the same circumstances. Jackson College is mentioned but that is because Fisher was there before taking his position at Conquerors. He shows how what transpired at CBC relates to other religious institutions who cracked down on "heretics". (Thus the reason for heretics being in the book title.)

[Monterrey]

Have a Brother of mine that went to CBC. I thought the only people that went there were just looking for a spouse! Didn't realize that doctrine entered into the picture.

I guess my problem with that college is it's extreme dispensational views that trickled down into their students. These views distorted their real life perspectives.

My Brother and his wife refused to have children based upon their teaching they received that the world was ending tomorrow and woe be to those that give suck in those days. That was 30 years ago and now they are lonely and old.

Just my 2 cents on CBC.

[TGBTG]

Have a Brother of mine that went to CBC. I thought the only people that went there were just looking for a spouse! Didn't realize that doctrine entered into the picture.

I guess my problem with that college is it's extreme dispensational views that trickled down into their students. These views distorted their real life perspectives.

My Brother and his wife refused to have children based upon their teaching they received that the world was ending tomorrow and woe be to those that give suck in those days. That was 30 years ago and now they are lonely and old.

Just my 2 cents on CBC.

If I may ask, are they still dispensationalists?

[StillStanding]

I'll wait on Tim Landry's book about JCM! :heeheehee

[CC1]

I'll wait on Tim Landry's book about JCM! :heeheehee

Tim was long gone by the time JCM had its exodus of teachers and the Keith Clark ultra con era began a few years before the end. Tim could give a good account of the beginning of JCM though.

[Sabby]

I am not sure a tiny UPC Bible College closing is worthy of a book but now that it is written I will be interested in reading it.

I would have preferred a book that covered all of the UPCI Bible Colleges with a look at their histories and fates.

That "tiny little" bible college produced more foreign missionaries than any in the organization. Other NW "sons" had the familiar names of Moyer, Judd and Scism.

Aegsm76, I'd like to know your connection to the situation. The situation in the NW- especially in Portland- was TOXIC in the 70's and 80's. I attended and graduated from CBC with a dual Ministry/Christian Education major in 1980, class president and ministerial student assoc pres for the last two years. Oregon remains a mine field to this day for anyone with an other-than dispensational viewpoint and an other-than holiness (as dictated by the by-laws) or hell conviction. You're free to disagree, but I've got the T shirt.

Is it on Amazon?

[Sabby]

Years ago, the Northwest District consisted of the states of Washington, Idaho and Oregon. The NW District purchased property in North Portland and created Conqueror's Bible College. After ID, OR and WA became their own districts, the school's board consisted of the DS of each district and a couple of other members of their respective districts and the president and administrator of the school. The board met to strategize learning content and process, finances and curriculum. Eventually the personality of each district began to manifest itself. Oregon got Californicated ("Don't Californicate Oregon!" Ruby Rutzen), Idaho was considered loose and very nearly heretical regarding her eschatalogy and PCI-leaning views on Acts 2:38, and Washington was in an "every man for himself" mode. At one time the largest church in the NW was Gene Ziemke's (a CBC alum) World of Pentecost. He got knocked down a few pegs by his "elders" over his position on standards. In the early 1980's I recall vividly a conversation my former pastor relayed to Mike Tuttle and me in talking about the looseness of Ziemke's position, mentioned a conversation he had at a General Conference with another preacher how to "Get them back" (to holiness), where the other preacher said, "Bro. ____, you never get them back".
Besides the holiness angle there was the angle of eschatalogy. CBC may have taught orthodox dispensationalism (now THAT's an oxymoron!), but some of their alumni were not nearly as rigid. The year the FMB refused to re-appoint Wayne Nigh to Germany was over his eschatalogy. Mike Tuttle commented to me (he met the FMB for an appointment to Holland, I believe, at the same time) of something Br Judd had said that no one had ever been interviewed by the FMB as long as Bro Nigh had been. What this tells me is that the eschatalogy issue was HQ driven and carried on by the likes of Winifred Toole, David Johnson, B.A. King, Phil and Paul Dugas, etc, in Portland.
Given the fact in the late 70s that military veterans were returning from Germany (from under Alvin Cobb and Wayne Nigh's tutelage) to CBC meant that these saints were arriving at CBC with a completely different world view than their dispensational brethren. Some were more outspoken than others. It represented a real threat to the "doctrine" of the "church" in the view of the more hard-line pastors, particulary in the Portland area.
The relaxed holiness attitude of the Idaho contigent only added more fuel to the fire.

I was not raised UPC. I was very energetic, but also naive. I preached hard and with conviction. You only need to ask my classmates. I was not hard enough on the doctrine (I leaned PCI) and my "end-time" doctrine was suspect. My DS, when siding with my pastor and calling me a liar told me I was "a nice guy". He didn't have the courtesy or courage to tell me that it was political, and for many years I took it personally.
I'm past that now.
I'm looking forward to reading Fudge's book.

[Carl]

Thanks for the background. I know of Gene Ziemke as he is from my area and a relative of a relative. Many that I know went to school there and some stayed in the area.

[Reader]

Is it on Amazon?

Yes. Just under $30.

[Reader]

Fudge contacted the majority of the student body and staff that were there near the end.

[aegsm76]

How can you say that when you have no clue what he wrote in the CBC book?

If the book is about the "drama" involved with the closure, then I don't need to read it to comment. There was a lot of drama at CBC, but not so much with the closure. That part was fairly straight forward.

[Reader]

I think when you make personal accusation against the author as you did, you should read the book first.

[Reader]

Years ago, the Northwest District consisted of the states of Washington, Idaho and Oregon.

I believe it initially was comprised of those states and Montana, Wyoming & British Columbia in Canada. It wasn't until 1965 that the three you mention comprised the NW District. The school was founded in 1953 and endorsed by the UPC the following year.

[Reader]

That "tiny little" bible college produced more foreign missionaries than any in the organization. Other NW "sons" had the familiar names of Moyer, Judd and Scism.

According to Fudge, it produced more than 30 foreign missionaries and at one time 5 of the 6 global missions regional field supervisors were former students.

[Sabby]

I believe it initially was comprised of those states and Montana, Wyoming & British Columbia in Canada. It wasn't until 1965 that the three you mention comprised the NW District. The school was founded in 1953 and endorsed by the UPC the following year.

I believe you are correct re: Montana, Wyoming & British Columbia.

[Sabby]

According to Fudge, it produced more than 30 foreign missionaries and at one time 5 of the 6 global missions regional field supervisors were former students.

I rest my case.

[Sabby]

Fudge contacted the majority of the student body and staff that were there near the end.

We met for an interview in late August of last year.

[Sabby]

If the book is about the "drama" involved with the closure, then I don't need to read it to comment. There was a lot of drama at CBC, but not so much with the closure. That part was fairly straight forward.

Is the straight forward part the disdain the Portland-area pastors held for Fisher (long before he arrived, I might add), or the Mt Hood Retreat "scandal"?

[Sabby]

I have contended from day 1 that the reason for the tremendous Foreign Mission's influence was because of the grace/PCI orientation of the early founders of the school.

The spirit of the founders was less about doctrinal "purity" than about winning souls to Christ.

In response to Aegsm76's comment about drama: CBC had institutional drama initiated by hardliners with roots in California and their acolytes.

[Reader]

We met for an interview in late August of last year.

Interesting. Would you care to comment about that time? What was your impression?

I appreciate that Fudge is appearing to tell both sides. The references to other groups in comparison to what happened at CBC is also welcomed. It causes it to not be seen as solely a UPC issue.

[CC1]

That "tiny little" bible college produced more foreign missionaries than any in the organization. Other NW "sons" had the familiar names of Moyer, Judd and Scism.

Aegsm76, I'd like to know your connection to the situation. The situation in the NW- especially in Portland- was TOXIC in the 70's and 80's. I attended and graduated from CBC with a dual Ministry/Christian Education major in 1980, class president and ministerial student assoc pres for the last two years. Oregon remains a mine field to this day for anyone with an other-than dispensational viewpoint and an other-than holiness (as dictated by the by-laws) or hell conviction. You're free to disagree, but I've got the T shirt.

Is it on Amazon?

I didn't mean to offend you by saying "tiny" but in the context of college sizes all UPC Bible Colleges have always been and continue to be "tiny".

I am sure part of that is because they are dedicated strictly to training for ministry. If the UPC had a liberal arts University there is a good chance it would be quite a bit larger. I was really rooting for the Great Lakes University that The Apostolic Church in Pontiac Michigan tried to start. While not a UPC sanctioned school it was a Oneness based one.

[Reader]

Great Lakes is/was endorsed by the UPC. Are they closed? Just tried to find the website.

[Monterrey]

If I may ask, are they still dispensationalists?

Yes they are. They are still waiting for that drivel to be fulfilled and still in a church today that is death on anyone that does not believe in the dispensational message.

I read what you wrote about the three states and their differing views, Idaho, Washington and Oregon. Very interesting and very enlightening. Thank you.

[Sabby]

I didn't mean to offend you by saying "tiny" but in the context of college sizes all UPC Bible Colleges have always been and continue to be "tiny".

I am sure part of that is because they are dedicated strictly to training for ministry. If the UPC had a liberal arts University there is a good chance it would be quite a bit larger. I was really rooting for the Great Lakes University that The Apostolic Church in Pontiac Michigan tried to start. While not a UPC sanctioned school it was a Oneness based one.

No problem. You're correct about the size of UPC colleges in general. Sometimes the nuance is hard to pick up and I didn't know if you were being snidely. :rant

Wasn't Great Lakes the one that Tom O'Daniel was involved with?

[Sabby]

Interesting. Would you care to comment about that time? What was your impression?

I appreciate that Fudge is appearing to tell both sides. The references to other groups in comparison to what happened at CBC is also welcomed. It causes it to not be seen as solely a UPC issue.

My observations of Tom Fudge were that he takes copious notes, is a good listener. He is a legitimate Church Historian. I've read blogs and notes here and there cynically sharpshooting at his degrees by "brethren" in the UPC.

It is easy to re-write history. Just control the information. Mao almost succeeded during his "Cultural Revolution". In the US the perception of American history - what actually happpened - is hidden amongst social issues within popular culture. I know no high school seniors that can tell me how our bill of Rights or government was formed, how it morphed from a confederation into states that were united and the social discord in both south and north prior to the great civil war. For the most part, our children have only learned what is being rehearsed by the popular culture, and it flies in the face of actual history. It's as if popular culture is re-writing history. Don't teach the truth and replace it with faux reality.
"The Aztecs and Mayans used picture-writing, but thousands of handwritten Mayan books were burned by fearful Spanish religious zealots, on four remain" Dr. Jan Barnes, Historical Atlas of Native Americans
To ignore history, re-branding it, or attempting destroy it will cause much greater harm than to know the truth. We have an obligation to the Way, the Truth and the Life to be tranparent with the truth so we don't repeat it

Let's face it. Sometimes history can rock your world.

[CC1]

What we need is a Kindle version of this book for $9.99 and then I am in!

[Reader]

LOL, I don't think that will be happening anytime soon, CCI! Not even his initial book can be purchased for Kindle at that price.

Thanks, Sabby, for your insight.

It is easy to re-write history. Just control the information.

I appreciate that Fudge is quite clear about oral history and the difficulties associated with it. It appears he attempted to obtain whatever he could on the history of CBC and some of the people involved, mainly Don Fisher. Besides many recorded interviews, he has shared many official documents as well as pictures. He kept a detailed journal during his time at CBC and quotes from that. He doesn't attempt to portray the UPC as any different from other groups that have rid themselves of those who have been seen as "weak in the faith."

[Reader]

I guess my problem with that college is it's extreme dispensational views that trickled down into their students. These views distorted their real life perspectives.

From the book- "It is true that Dan Lewis openly criticized dispensational pre-mellennialism in classrooms on the grounds that these were not official UPC doctrines, despite the fact that many considered them unassailably orthodox. Lewis made a significant transition in his own thinking on matters of eschatology while at Jackson. He arrived on the faculty in 1976 from Portland as a confirmed dispensationalist. However, by 1981 he had completely abandoned that hermeneutical position. He deliberately exposed students to a variety of eschatological option including but not limited to those advanced by many influential twentieth-century theologians such as Albert Schweitzer, Jurgen Moltmann, Rudolph Bultmann and C.H. Dodd. Lewis did not attempt to influence his students to adopt any particular point of view but he did intentionally not emphasize the dispensational model. This perspective was made explicit in the teaching materials which stated "no attenpt will be made to force students into acceptance of any particular mode of interpretation nor will there be any favoritism shown to 'pet' systems."

[Ferd]

Fudge reminds me of a scientist who writes out his hypothesis, then sets out trying to find the proof by throwing out everything that disagrees with it...

Aegsm76, have you read the book?

I read CWOC. I agree with ageism76. Taking it a step further this new offering confirms my suspicion that the good fudge is just a hater with atpye writer.

[Reader]

I see no hate in this book.

[crakjak]

I see no issue with Fudge writing either of these books, they relate to a context of his own experience. He is a historian, I don't see "hate" as his motivation. While his context is PCI and Northwestern, he seems to write of unsavory aspects of those of whom he has more agreement, as well as those of whom he has less. Anyway, both of these books show clearly that religious men and institutions are all imperfect. Yet he is presenting what he believes he has discovered as facts, with extensive footnotes.

While his primary focus is CBC in this latest book, he details what he considers parallels with the history of three or four other religious groups. Spotlights how men react to protect their territory, sometimes in very human ways.

It will be interesting to see the response of those whom were at CBC, and JSM during the time of which he writes.

[CC1]

I see no issue with Fudge writing either of these books, they relate to a context of his own experience. He is a historian, I don't see "hate" as his motivation. While his context is PCI and Northwestern, he seems to write of unsavory aspects of those of whom he has more agreement, as well as those of whom he has less. Anyway, both of these books show clearly that religious men and institutions are all imperfect. Yet he is presenting what he believes he has discovered as facts, with extensive footnotes.

While his primary focus is CBC in this latest book, he details what he considers parallels with the history of three or four other religious groups. Spotlights how men react to protect their territory, sometimes in very human ways.

It will be interesting to see the response of those whom were at CBC, and JSM during the time of which he writes.

I am not familiar with "JSM". Was this a secret Bible College only known to those approved?:happydance

[Sabby]

JSM = Jackson School of Ministry...

[crakjak]

i am not familiar with "jsm". Was this a secret bible college only known to those approved?:happydance

JCM!! You exploit my ignorance!! LOL

[crakjak]

The whole substance of this book is really the clash of the ideologies from the merger, unfortunately, it seems that one side was hell-bent on eradicating the other side from the organization. Unfortunately, many casualties resulted, instead of a diverse and powerful movement for the kingdom of God. On the other hand who can really quantify what the true long range effect of the disruption and scattering??

It seems this book would be mostly of interest to folks that were in the UPC 30+ years ago, that would have a sense of the context. To later folks, it seems it would be just humans squabbling.

[Disciple4life]

Just finished the book. Wow!

So I would like to first say I appreciate Dr. Fudge's efforts in his two books.

I would recommend both of Dr. Fudge's books to ALL APOSTOLOICS! Regardless of politics or theology, there is more that one opinion in Apostolic circles. More in understanding and learning only improves ones beliefs.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. Fudge is more diplomatic in his latest book. His tone is more like 'all denominations have problems let's learn from our past'. One thing which is a small criticism is that the book could be 100 pages shorter. I know that is not Fudges style but after hearing the same argument the sixth time it gets monotonous.

I did not know about Don Fisher. The end of the book is like a kick in the gut. REALLY!!!

[crakjak]

Just finished the book. Wow!

So I would like to first say I appreciate Dr. Fudge's efforts in his two books.

I would recommend both of Dr. Fudge's books to ALL APOSTOLOICS! Regardless of politics or theology, there is more that one opinion in Apostolic circles. More in understanding and learning only improves ones beliefs.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. Fudge is more diplomatic in his latest book. His tone is more like 'all denominations have problems let's learn from our past'. One thing which is a small criticism is that the book could be 100 pages shorter. I know that is not Fudges style but after hearing the same argument the sixth time it gets monotonous.

I did not know about Don Fisher. The end of the book is like a kick in the gut. REALLY!!!

Likewise, however, I do remember him being in St. Louis involved with Word of Flame and the national youth leadership. Didn't know he was in Mississippi, nor where he had gone from St. Louis.

[aegsm76]

Maybe TF can write a book detailing and explaining the collapse of one of the best churches of its era, Jim Roam's church in Portland...
It would be interesting to see how he could spin that one.

[Disciple4life]

I would still like to hear any bodies recollections on how things happened at CBC. And also their opinions.

[Disciple4life]

So nobody is going to dish out the dirt/gossip/whispers on CBC?

I haven't heard any of it, so it is new to me.

[Reader]

Didn't you just say you read the book, LOL?

[crakjak]

Didn't you just say you read the book, LOL?

The bad guys are the "experts" that came into the Northwest to run out all the heretics. CBC was just being what the Northwest had been since the merger.

[Reader]

Maybe TF can write a book detailing and explaining the collapse of one of the best churches of its era, Jim Roam's church in Portland...
It would be interesting to see how he could spin that one.

Roam's church is mentioned in the book, at least where he made dancing in the spirit a practice policy in the church and backed down when C.H. Yadon intervened. He also mentions Roam bringing in Winfred Toole from California without the consent of the church board and that it was disastrous, cutting the church size in half. Lewis Davies took the realm after and had times where questioning was welcomed and called into question UPC teaching on water & Spirit baptisms and didn't stress outward holiness standards. He was investigated by the District Board and later refused to appear before the Board. Soon after the church disaffiliated from the UPC. Davies later went to appear before the board but they changed the meeting place without notice. At this time Toole was the District Super.

If you bothered to read the book, you would know what was written about that church.

Would you care to be more specific as to why you feel as you do about Fudge? Did he attempt to interview you? Or were you not involved in such a manner as to be asked for one?

[Reader]

The bad guys are the "experts" that came into the Northwest to run out all the heretics. CBC was just being what the Northwest had been since the merger.

Those from California and elsewhere?

[crakjak]

Those from California and elsewhere?

Correct.

[Disciple4life]

Has anyone read

The Journey Out of the United Pentecostal Church

by Dan Lewis?

[Reader]

No but I have read Don Marler's Imprisoned in the brotherhood, also referenced in Fudge's book.

[Disciple4life]

No but I have read Don Marler's Imprisoned in the brotherhood, also referenced in Fudge's book.

Thoughts? How did you get it? I like to read! Don't judge me!!

[Reader]

I had mixed thoughts. I found myself in agreement and disagreement. If you do a Google search, I think you can find it for sale.

[Sabby]

Lew Davies took over Roam's church in Milwaukie, a suburb of Portland. He was a talent from California and had a mind of his own. He thought that the church altar was Roman Catholic in origin and had it removed. I heard some nasty things said about him. The last time I saw him at a fellowship meeting he was breaking the dress code by wearing a turtle neck instead of a tie. Eventually the building was lost. When Lew left, those that remained in that church chose Leon Brokaw as his successor. Brokaw had been invited in past years to teach the Idaho youth camp at the invitation of Norm Rutzen. He was a grace preacher with a "reputation" to not to be strong on the message, and the fact that he was close to the Rutzens didn't help Brokaw's relationship w/the Oregon District.
I was in a meeting where my pastor at the time preached against this man and his daughter, who was a professional model. It was worse than toxic.

[Sabby]

Aegsm76,
I don't know what you are implying about what happened to Jim Roam's church, but I suspect you were or are a minister in the Oregon District. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we knew each other.

[Sabby]

I would still like to hear any bodies recollections on how things happened at CBC. And also their opinions.

Class of '80. Class president, MSA President jr and sr years, Chapel Committee Chairman. Graduated w/dual major in Ministry/Christian Education.

Tom O'Daniel returned from Kenya and joined CBC as an insructor at HQ's behest (his words) to "straighten things out".
Several students were military veterans from Germany and alums of the Cobb/Nigh school of eschatalogy. This presented a sticky situation for John Klemin (the school president) in how to best deal with the local Portland area pastors - Winifred Toole, Bill Davies (Toole's son-in-law), Barry King, Clyde Barlow, Phil and Paul Dugas, etc.

[Monterrey]

Having grown up close to these districts and having extensive fellowship with men in these districts as I grew older, this information is extremely interesting to me. It explains the attitude that still exists today among the Idaho, Washington and Oregon men, both in and out of the UPCI.

I always wondered why the animosity existed in that part of the country. In my ignorance I thought at the time that they all believed the common primary message put out by the Org.

The interesting thing is that the contention remains to this day in that region. I just had not put it together until now as to why.

Last year I was contacted by a former acquaintance of mine from that area and asked if we could meet so he could "examine" what I believe. (I am not a dispensationalist).

When we sat down and began to talk he referenced some of what is being discussed here... I had no idea what he was speaking of.

Now the light is clicking on.

Interesting.

[Monterrey]

This also explains more as to why the contentious Apostolic was printed and sent out for so many years by Dugas.

[aegsm76]

My reason for questioning most things put out by Fudge have to do with his view of the UPC. From my understanding of his theological perspective, he believes that the basic doctrine held by the UPC is heretical and not "Christian". Thus, this colors anything that he might believe, write and publish. A perfect example of this is the title of CWOC, which was a direct slam of the UPC. I am always curious to know what the personal beliefs are of writers as it tends to color their writings.

[crakjak]

My reason for questioning most things put out by Fudge have to do with his view of the UPC. From my understanding of his theological perspective, he believes that the basic doctrine held by the UPC is heretical and not "Christian". Thus, this colors anything that he might believe, write and publish. A perfect example of this is the title of CWOC, which was a direct slam of the UPC. I am always curious to know what the personal beliefs are of writers as it tends to color their writings.

Fudge is like many that grew up in the UPC, having seen how very human the leadership, he continued to study, observe and search for truth. The UPC is no less flawed and filled with human frailty, than the next religious organization, no matter how it is supposed be "Spirit lead".

Our responsibility is to never stop learning and seeking to know Jesus and the true principles of kingdom living. Many in the UPC are on this path and many that were once there are on this path. Some have wrecked their lives, unable to assimilate the paths of the search, both in and out of the UPC.

When men refuse to meet with those that they demonize, using the Scriptures only as the reference for what is true, those men are pushing politics instead of truth. This is what was characteristic of "experts" that in the way they went about removing the "heretics".

[crakjak]

Class of '80. Class president, MSA President jr and sr years, Chapel Committee Chairman. Graduated w/dual major in Ministry/Christian Education.

Tom O'Daniel returned from Kenya and joined CBC as an insructor at HQ's behest (his words) to "straighten things out".
Several students were military veterans from Germany and alums of the Cobb/Nigh school of eschatalogy. This presented a sticky situation for John Klemin (the school president) in how to best deal with the local Portland area pastors - Winifred Toole, Bill Davies (Toole's son-in-law), Barry King, Clyde Barlow, Phil and Paul Dugas, etc.

I have read Fudge's latest book, your perspective on this history is very interesting and appreciated.

I have no desire to demonize any involved, but because it reflects on my heritage and experience I am very interested. Thank you.

[Reader]

Would it help you to discover that Fudge calls Fisher, Lewis, etc. heretics as they did differ from the established UPC beliefs? Or that he says the UPC had a right to take action?

He did contact people on both sides, including Bernard.

(to aegsm76)

[crakjak]

Thoughts? How did you get it? I like to read! Don't judge me!!

Don Marler's book is one of the earliest critiques of the UPC that I was exposed to, it was amazing to read another perspective on many of my own concerns.

[Reader]

When men refuse to meet with those that they demonize, using the Scriptures only as the reference for what is true, those men are pushing politics instead of truth. This is what was characteristic of "experts" that in the way they went about removing the "heretics".

Are you speaking of when the board suddenly changed the location of the meeting and deliberately did not notify the minister they were investigating?

[Reader]

Don Marler's book is one of the earliest critiques of the UPC that I was exposed to, it was amazing to read another perspective on many of my own concerns.

How far back did you read it? If it was close to when it was released, do you recall what you heard people saying about it? Fudge states some in the UPC spoke of filing a lawsuit.

[aegsm76]

Would it help you to discover that Fudge calls Fisher, Lewis, etc. heretics as they did differ from the established UPC beliefs? Or that he says the UPC had a right to take action?

He did contact people on both sides, including Bernard.

(to aegsm76)

That does help...
At least it gives an appearance of balance...

[Reader]

Good. Fudge was influenced by Fisher and left the UPC around when these incidents transpired. He is open about this and the difficulties in using oral history. Does he agree with what happened? I do not believe so, but that doesn't mean he cannot accurately tell what happened. He is not a hater of the UPC in my eyes.

[Steve Epley]

Would it matter if some died from aids involved?

[AR Pastor]

I read Fudge's first book. won't waste my time or money on his second.

[Reader]

Would it matter if some died from aids involved?

He does include this about Fisher in the book. He appears to try and show warts and all and not only play up what may be considered good.

[crakjak]

Would it matter if some died from aids involved?

Would it matter that some were demonized because that they happen to believe the PCI view, and were unable to do their job because they were constantly being called on the carpet by those officials that were imports into the Northwestern (PCI) culture? Maybe they were driven mad by those that should have given positive support and leadership, instead they withheld financial support from a college that had fielded the majority of foreign missionaries since 1953.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence of what you speak until the above had gone on for years? These imports were self appointed missionaries to folks that were accepted in the merger, but were unacceptable afterward, marginalized because they supposedly were "weak on the message." I heard that statement often during my childhood, didn't have a clue as to what it really meant.

[Reader]

Who can share more insight as to the NW area before this transpired? Sabby? Was there this friction before then?

My understanding is that BEFORE Fisher took over, there was already concern about CBC. The concern did not start with Fisher, but escalated afterward.

[Sabby]

Would it matter that some were demonized because that they happen to believe the PCI view, and were unable to do their job because they were constantly being called on the carpet by those officials that were imports into the Northwestern (PCI) culture? Maybe the were driven mad.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence of what you speak until the above had gone on for years?

I think it speaks to a very lonely existence, with feelings of more and more hopelessness. If you are without hope, what...if anything...matters?

Br Epley, that was a cheap shot.

[crakjak]

He does include this about Fisher in the book. He appears to try and show warts and all and not only play up what may be considered good.

He is not covering for anyone, seems he is trying to tell the whole story, which is what a historian should do. I'm sure some on both sides will criticize the book.

[Reader]

Had he omitted that piece of his life, his book certainly would have been dismissed by anyone who knew.

[crakjak]

Had he omitted that piece of his life, his book certainly would have been dismissed by anyone who knew.

Your "he" and "his(s)" are confusing.

[crakjak]

Who can share more insight as to the NW area before this transpired? Sabby? Was there this friction before then?

My understanding is that BEFORE Fisher took over, there was already concern about CBC. The concern did not start with Fisher, but escalated afterward.

Yes, the missionaries (the imports from California) were already doing their work, undermining the support and finances for CBC. Fisher's leadership just intensified their efforts.

[Reader]

My apologies. Had Fudge omitted that piece of Fisher's life, Fudge's book certainly would have been dismissed by anyone who knew.

[Reader]

But what about the NW before any difficulties at CBC? Was there similar friction and division?

[crakjak]

But what about the NW before any difficulties at CBC? Was there similar friction and division?

I believe it had been building for years between then with the demise of CBC, and then the Westburg Resolution, the PCI were effectively ousted. The majority view in the UPC, contended for their view to the division of the body.

[Sabby]

Who can share more insight as to the NW area before this transpired? Sabby? Was there this friction before then?

My understanding is that BEFORE Fisher took over, there was already concern about CBC. The concern did not start with Fisher, but escalated afterward.

You had better believe it. My senior year 79-80, the CBC Chorale was having a service in Twin Falls, Idaho at Carroll Magruder's church. Because it was a school function the DS's were there. Charley Yadon from Washington, Norman Rutzen from Idaho, Winifred Toole from Oregon, and Ralph Reynolds the school president (he came out of retirement to replace John Klemin).
Rutzen (as the host DS) invited the two other DSs onto the platform, had them all hold hands. He got them moving their hands back and forth and asked everyone in the congregation to "sing" with them, "When we allllll pull together, together, together, when we alllll pull together, how happy we'll be!"
One of the moderators (can't remember which one) got their tongue tangled while mentioning the HISTORY of CBC, and said something very similar to Historicist (not a real timely word to use!) Magruder took the mike after that gentleman and said something to the effect "we'll not have any of that around here"....

The choir director for that event and that school year was Jerry Dillon. He had been on the staff for many years. He was rumored to be non-dispensationalist. Years later Alvin Cobb told me Dillon's eschatology was the same as Br Nigh's.
Jerry got himself into trouble with the Portland area pastors in a class of his I enrolled in called Bible Lands and Customs. This was around the time a Br Johnson (I believe) from California preached the Oregon District Youth Camp meeting, probably '78 or '79. In the class, Jerry taught the hebrew meaning of worship of which he explained to be like a dog licking its master's hand. He criticized those that claimed worship was like running the aisles, rolling on the floor, or dancing feverishly with eyes closed, saying that it might be praise but was not worship. This lit a fuse with a couple of our male students, one in particular. A couple of the students took strong difference with him and would later talk to their pastors (Barlow, Dugas, etc) about the heretic teaching at the bible college.
Back to Br Johnson. He preached at this youth camp, and in one of his sermons he said something to the effect that "God doesn't care if all you have is a bucket of rocks to worship Him with!" The one particular student I mentioned about took it upon himself to spray paint an empty Folger's can, fill it with rocks (not pebbles) and took it upon himself to shake it in our chapel services much like someone would shake a tambourine. It was very obnoxious and it was impossible to truly worship (and very hard to sincerely praise) with cement factory going on.
To this day I can't understand why no one in the school administration did not have the courage to tell him that rocks are not allowed. I have to believe they were fearful of the repercussions.

[CC1]

One of the moderators (can't remember which one) got their tongue tangled while mentioning the HISTORY of CBC, and said something very similar to Historicist (not a real timely word to use!) Magruder took the mike after that gentleman and said something to the effect "we'll not have any of that around here"....

.

I don't understand this part at all.

[crakjak]

My apologies. Had Fudge omitted that piece of Fisher's life, Fudge's book certainly would have been dismissed by anyone who knew.

Fisher was effectively destroyed by the opposition, the oppression may have so weakened him that his human frailty overcame him. According to Fudge, there was no evidence of his homosexually until after the demise of CBC. Of course, he had also been dealing with the same forces against his PCI view when he was president of JCM, just prior to moving back to Portland.

Some may blame the "weakness on the message" as what destroyed him? He seemed to have been effective in St Louis and early on in Jackson, he obviously was a strong leader, but eventually couldn't handle the constant battle.

Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life".

This is a sad saga, but thank God, Jesus is the one that finally judges all men.

[crakjak]

You had better believe it. My senior year 79-80, the CBC Chorale was having a service in Twin Falls, Idaho at Carroll Magruder's church. Because it was a school function the DS's were there. Charley Yadon from Washington, Norman Rutzen from Idaho, Winifred Toole from Oregon, and Ralph Reynolds the school president (he came out of retirement to replace John Klemin).
Rutzen (as the host DS) invited the two other DSs onto the platform, had them all hold hands. He got them moving their hands back and forth and asked everyone in the congregation to "sing" with them, "When we allllll pull together, together, together, when we alllll pull together, how happy we'll be!"
One of the moderators (can't remember which one) got their tongue tangled while mentioning the HISTORY of CBC, and said something very similar to Historicist (not a real timely word to use!) Magruder took the mike after that gentleman and said something to the effect "we'll not have any of that around here"....

The choir director for that event and that school year was Jerry Dillon. He had been on the staff for many years. He was rumored to be non-dispensationalist. Years later Alvin Cobb told me Dillon's eschatology was the same as Br Nigh's.
Jerry got himself into trouble with the Portland area pastors in a class of his I enrolled in called Bible Lands and Customs. This was around the time a Br Johnson (I believe) from California preached the Oregon District Youth Camp meeting, probably '78 or '79. In the class, Jerry taught the hebrew meaning of worship of which he explained to be like a dog licking its master's hand. He criticized those that claimed worship was like running the aisles, rolling on the floor, or dancing feverishly with eyes closed, saying that it might be praise but was not worship. This lit a fuse with a couple of our male students, one in particular. A couple of the students took strong difference with him and would later talk to their pastors (Barlow, Dugas, etc) about the heretic teaching at the bible college.
Back to Br Johnson. He preached at this youth camp, and in one of his sermons he said something to the effect that "God doesn't care if all you have is a bucket of rocks to worship Him with!" The one particular student I mentioned about took it upon himself to spray paint an empty Folger's can, fill it with rocks (not pebbles) and took it upon himself to shake it in our chapel services much like someone would shake a tambourine. It was very obnoxious and it was impossible to truly worship (and very hard to sincerely praise) with cement factory going on.
To this day I can't understand why no one in the school administration did not have the courage to tell him that rocks are not allowed. I have to believe they were fearful of the repercussions.

It is oh so sad to see and hear Christians fighting and slamming one another.

[CC1]

Fisher was effectively destroyed by the opposition, the oppression may have so weakened him that his human frailty overcame him. According to Fudge, there was no evidence of his homosexually until after the demise of CBC. Of course, he had also been dealing with the same forces against his PCI view when he was president of JCM, just prior to moving back to Portland.

Some may blame the "weakness on the message" as what destroyed him? He seemed to have been effective in St Louis and early on in Jackson, he obviously was a strong leader, but eventually couldn't handle the constant battle.

Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life".

This is a sad saga, but thank God, Jesus is the one that finally judges all men.

Anyone who would ascribe DWF's personal moral failure to his doctrinal views is either an idiot or intellectually dishonest. Human failure happens in every ideological and theological camp. From ultra cons to ultra liberals, one steppers and three steppers.

[crakjak]

I don't understand this part at all.

Fulfilled prophecy was NOT welcome!!!

[Sabby]

Jerry got himself into trouble with Phil Dugas my freshman year. He was the advisor for the senior class. The school had an outing and each class had a skit to do. The senior class did a parody of the bus ministry and the some of the methods that had been used to get kids on the S.S. bus. At the time, PD had four buses and the largest (UPC) bus ministry in PDX. During the senior's skit one of the choruses they sang went something like, "Numbers, numbers, numbers is the name of the game. Just keep them coming through the doors no matter why they came". Bubble gum Sunday took a hit! It didn't matter why they got on the bus, just as long as they GOT on the bus. Coincidentally, there were times that kids were offered things like bubble gum, etc, to attend PD's Sunday school. I think Phil had good motives. He wanted as many kids to learn about Jesus as possible. I think Jerry Dillon had good motives. He was striking out at the obsession with numbers that comes at the expense of true evangelism and discipleship.
Needless to say, PD was furious and personally told me that he considered it an attack on him and his church.
My best friend was a member of the senior class and attending Evangel (Phil Dugas') church. He began to teach home bible studies in his home. He had about 4 months to go to graduate. One of the requirements students of the school had with the Portland area pastors was that they had to select a single church in which they would attend during the school year (usually had a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year to decide which one) and they were forbidden to church hop. It created some problems for those who disagreed with the style or methods or personality of church...they would just have to tough it out for the rest of the year, and they were considered "church members" where they attended. It was actually just free S.S. staffing.
Back to my friend's situation. He was called in to Phil's office and told that he was to cease and desist teaching any more home bible studies. If he continued, Phil threatened to kick him out of the church and he would be unable to graduate as a result. My friend told me that if he wanted to graduate (which he did want to do) he had no choice but to discontinue teaching home bible studies. Phil knew that my friend was a senior and that Jerry Dillon was his advisor. I'm sure that what transpired was in some way connected to Phil's antipathy towards Jerry and secondarily the school

[Sabby]

Anyone who would ascribe DWF's personal moral failure to his doctrinal views is either an idiot or intellectually dishonest. Human failure happens in every ideological and theological camp. From ultra cons to ultra liberals, one steppers and three steppers.

:highfive

[CC1]

Jerry got himself into trouble with Phil Dugas my freshman year. He was the advisor for the senior class. The school had an outing and each class had a skit to do. The senior class did a parody of the bus ministry and the some of the methods that had been used to get kids on the S.S. bus. At the time, PD had four buses and the largest (UPC) bus ministry in PDX. During the senior's skit one of the choruses they sang went something like, "Numbers, numbers, numbers is the name of the game. Just keep them coming through the doors no matter why they came". Bubble gum Sunday took a hit! It didn't matter why they got on the bus, just as long as they GOT on the bus. Coincidentally, there were times that kids were offered things like bubble gum, etc, to attend PD's Sunday school. I think Phil had good motives. He wanted as many kids to learn about Jesus as possible. I think Jerry Dillon had good motives. He was striking out at the obsession with numbers that comes at the expense of true evangelism and discipleship.
Needless to say, PD was furious and personally told me that he considered it an attack on him and his church.
My best friend was a member of the senior class and attending Evangel (Phil Dugas') church. He began to teach home bible studies in his home. He had about 4 months to go to graduate. One of the requirements students of the school had with the Portland area pastors was that they had to select a single church in which they would attend during the school year (usually had a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year to decide which one) and they were forbidden to church hop. It created some problems for those who disagreed with the style or methods or personality of church...they would just have to tough it out for the rest of the year, and they were considered "church members" where they attended. It was actually just free S.S. staffing.
Back to my friend's situation. He was called in to Phil's office and told that he was to cease and desist teaching any more home bible studies. If he continued, Phil threatened to kick him out of the church and he would be unable to graduate as a result. My friend told me that if he wanted to graduate (which he did want to do) he had no choice but to discontinue teaching home bible studies. Phil knew that my friend was a senior and that Jerry Dillon was his advisor. I'm sure that what transpired was in some way connected to Phil's antipathy towards Jerry and secondarily the school

If your friend was teaching home bible studies in lieu of attending one of the area churches as the rules called for then he was clearly violating the rules. If he was conducting home bible studies in addition to attending a local church then it would all come down to what his motives were and what he was teaching. If his motive was to undermine a local pastor or to teach that pastors saints things contrary to the pastors teachings then he was dead wrong. Needed to wait until he graduated then start his own church!

[Sabby]

It is oh so sad to see and hear Christians fighting and slamming one another.

CJ,
I'm not being a Debbie Downer, just reciting history. I'm sure it still happens elsewhere.

[Sabby]

If your friend was teaching home bible studies in lieu of attending one of the area churches as the rules called for then he was clearly violating the rules. If he was conducting home bible studies in addition to attending a local church then it would all come down to what his motives were and what he was teaching. If his motive was to undermine a local pastor or to teach that pastors saints things contrary to the pastors teachings then he was dead wrong. Needed to wait until he graduated then start his own church!

My friend was teaching home bible studies on off-church nights, teaching his neighbors (who were not attending anywhere). They never missed church - school policy forbad it.
He denied teaching eschatalogy when I asked him. He said that that there are more important things to teach, like Jesus. My friend was not raised in the UPC. He was Alvin Cobb's convert in Europe while in the military. He had won several soldiers to The Lord when I knew him in Germany. I don't think he had an agenda, but then again, I don't know his mind or motives at the time.

[CC1]

My friend was teaching home bible studies on off-church nights, teaching his neighbors (who were not attending anywhere). They never missed church - school policy forbad it.
He denied teaching eschatalogy when I asked him. He said that that there are more important things to teach, like Jesus. My friend was not raised in the UPC. He was Alvin Cobb's convert in Europe while in the military. He had won several soldiers to The Lord when I knew him in Germany. I don't think he had an agenda, but then again, I don't know his mind or motives at the time.

If he was telling you the truth then sadly it sounds like he was another victim of small thinking. You would think a pastor would be thrilled that a young minister in his church would be conducting home bible studies.

[crakjak]

CJ,
I'm not being a Debbie Downer, just reciting history. I'm sure it still happens elsewhere.

I know, just reminds me of some places I have been, looking back I wonder how it could have been.

[Reader]

Fudge shared about when Wayne Nigh was removed from the missionary field. That, to me, is a sad part of UPC history - due to how it happened and that it was, in part, about his beliefs on facial hair of all things. It has been my understanding that (at least back then- may not be now) missionaries were told not to attempt to change the culture of the area they were appointed to. Why then fuss with a missionary over their standards beliefs, especially an unwritten one. That has never been part of the UPC Manual or Articles of Faith.

Sabby- thank you for sharing some insight into the NW.

[Sabby]

I don't understand this part at all.

Historicism basically holds that end-time prophecies have been historically fulfilled. This flies in the face of Dispensationalism.

[Sabby]

If he was telling you the truth then sadly it sounds like he was another victim of small thinking. You would think a pastor would be thrilled that a young minister in his church would be conducting home bible studies.

A hearty AMEN to that, CC1.

[Sabby]

Fudge shared about when Wayne Nigh was removed from the missionary field. That, to me, is a sad part of UPC history - due to how it happened and that it was, in part, about his beliefs on facial hair of all things. It has been my understanding that (at least back then- may not be now) missionaries were told not to attempt to change the culture of the area they were appointed to. Why then fuss with a missionary over their standards beliefs, especially an unwritten one. That has never been part of the UPC Manual or Articles of Faith.

Sabby- thank you for sharing some insight into the NW.

Br. Nigh was a German to the Germans. He learned their language, translated countless choruses and at least one NT book (Philippians). He opened an international bible college and had the largest fellowship in Europe. That HQ "denied" him PIM status reinforces his comment to me that in those days he felt like he was "swimming with sharks".

[crakjak]

Br. Nigh was a German to the Germans. He learned their language, translated countless choruses and at least one NT book (Philippians). He opened an international bible college and had the largest fellowship in Europe. That HQ "denied" him PIM status reinforces his comment to me that in those days he felt like he was "swimming with sharks".

He was too smart and serious about doing real missions work, the small minds had to bring him back in the box. That's not a great legacy for the organization. It is always a very difficult thing to try to contain new wine in old wine skins, the old skins have to be replaced with new, and that is very painful for the old.

The Holy Spirit is alive and always moving forward to those that are receptive. Fear of delusion and heresy is tough to overcome, and to know the difference.

[crakjak]

If he was telling you the truth then sadly it sounds like he was another victim of small thinking. You would think a pastor would be thrilled that a young minister in his church would be conducting home bible studies.

:highfive

[kclee4jc]

I read Fudge's first book. won't waste my time or money on his second.

Currently reading his first book. I am interested in the history. I have felt for a long time that the UPCI was founded on comprimise and Fudge's research affirms that for me. It does not in anyway take away from my conviction that this message is the only message.

I am enjoying parts of the book, but I know I will not agree with his conclusions.

[Disciple4life]

After reading Dr. Fudges second book I have had time to reflect.

After reading the second book it is easy to understand WHY he wrote the first book!

I think Fudge understood/learned/heard that people took his first book as hateful (that is not how I took it but it was some people's opinions at the time). In the second book he was more diplomatic.

At no point did I feel like Fudge was trying to convert me. He was telling a story, which has excellent footnotes by the way. I do not think Fudge was misleading. He says over and over that there was controversy and TWO different opinions. Fudge goes on numerous times to restate both sides of the debate. Do I have a good idea of what Dr Fudge thinks concerning the UPCI? Sure, but to say the book was one sided is a stretch.

[Steve Epley]

After reading Dr. Fudges second book I have had time to reflect.

After reading the second book it is easy to understand WHY he wrote the first book!

I think Fudge understood/learned/heard that people took his first book as hateful (that is not how I took it but it was some people's opinions at the time). In the second book he was more diplomatic.

At no point did I feel like Fudge was trying to convert me. He was telling a story, which has excellent footnotes by the way. I do not think Fudge was misleading. He says over and over that there was controversy and TWO different opinions. Fudge goes on numerous times to restate both sides of the debate. Do I have a good idea of what Dr Fudge thinks concerning the UPCI? Sure, but to say the book was one sided is a stretch.

"Christianity Without The Cross?" and anyone wonders if it is a hit piece? :icecream

[kclee4jc]

"Christianity Without The Cross?" and anyone wonders if it is a hit piece? :icecream

The title is a give away. Which is why I have skipped over certain sections and focused on others. I have enjoyed the research, disagree with the conclusion.

[Reader]

"Christianity Without The Cross?" and anyone wonders if it is a hit piece? :icecream

You read it and even gave away copies if memory serves me right.

[Reader]

I am enjoying parts of the book, but I know I will not agree with his conclusions.

He states it is up to the individual to come to conclusions. "It will be up to the reader to decide if their theological departures should be condemned or saluted." p.15 [regarding Fisher, Howell, Lewis, Dillon, Yadon & others]

[Reader]

Historicism basically holds that end-time prophecies have been historically fulfilled.

Would this accurately be described as preterism or no?

[Disciple4life]

"Christianity Without The Cross?" and anyone wonders if it is a hit piece? :icecream

MANY people from this forum have commented that if the book had another name it would have been given a much different reception.

[crakjak]

I read a lot of books that I don't agree with, not afraid to read and consider, then make my own prayerful conclusions. Fudge's books have been the same for me, love to read about the roots of the culture in which I was born and raised, and the influences over the years. I share my thoughts and my conclusions from time to time, but I don't separate myself from the Body of Christ because I don't agree on every point, even in my local church.

[Sabby]

Would this accurately be described as preterism or no?

More or less. It includes partial-preterism.

[Steve Epley]

You read it and even gave away copies if memory serves me right.

I did read it more than once and yes gave more than 25 copies away. And will probably buy the next book.

[Reader]

More or less. It includes partial-preterism.

Would you have any thoughts as to why the UPC didn't crack down on this back then as compared to more recent years when they took an official stand against it? Why would it take them from the 70s (or further back) until 2005 to officially address it?

I understand you cannot answer for the UPC, but would like to hear your thoughts.

[Reader]

I did read it more than once and yes gave more than 25 copies away. And will probably buy the next book.

:yourock I hope you give away copies of Heretics too!

[Steve Epley]

:yourock I hope you give away copies of Heretics too!

No I don't think it will be that important. Ole Tommy made enough off me on the first one. One will be plenty.

[crakjak]

I did read it more than once and yes gave more than 25 copies away. And will probably buy the next book.

You won't agree with it all, but it is worth the read.

[Disciple4life]

I thought the info about JCM was more interesting.

[crakjak]

I thought the info about JCM was more interesting.

Yep, that completed the picture.

[Reader]

I thought the info about JCM was more interesting.

Why so?

[Disciple4life]

It had to do with more than just Don Fisher. The two other teachers that were more open-minded were Lewis and Howell.

Did they (the teachers) push it too far?
Fudge at one point says that if you want to work at Jackson you have to respect that you have to teach certain things.

But the other side is that if the UPCI was TRULY interested in education, a student or teacher asking a question does not hurt the college.

Eventually EVERYBODY leaves the UPC. Why?
They were not given enough leeway to reform the Church/School/Themselves. So they probably figured it was time to move on.

[Reader]

But CBC information also included others, including Howell & Lewis. Keep in mind the book is about Fisher & the last days of CBC. If I recall, Fudge mentions you cannot have one without the other- both Fisher & CBC go together in telling of their demise.

Fudge looks at it as indoctrination vrs. education.

[Disciple4life]

But I wanted a happy ending. :angelsad:sad

[Reader]

To some, the demise of CBC and the "heretics" leaving the UPC was a happy ending.

[Disciple4life]

Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?

[RunningOnFaith]

It had to do with more than just Don Fisher. The two other teachers that were more open-minded were Lewis and Howell.

Did they (the teachers) push it too far?
Fudge at one point says that if you want to work at Jackson you have to respect that you have to teach certain things.

But the other side is that if the UPCI was TRULY interested in education, a student or teacher asking a question does not hurt the college.

Eventually EVERYBODY leaves the UPC. Why?
They were not given enough leeway to reform the Church/School/Themselves. So they probably figured it was time to move on.

I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

I found very little evidence in Fudge’s book that Lewis, Howell, or Fisher actively taught ideas that would be considered heresy if one defines it by the 1945 merger agreement that allowed divergent views. Jerry Dillon’s views regarding the nature of God were suspect, but when he was questioned about it in a meeting of local Pastor that included conservatives-- they were satisfied with his answers. I certainly don’t think these men would have been considered liberals in the wider world of theological education. If their ideas regarding historical criticism were similar to the text they used by Bernard Ramm, it is hard for me to understand how this could have been problematic to anyone. Dr. Fudge points out that Ramm was influenced by Barth. Much of Barth’s work itself was a reaction against theological liberalism (albeit he would be strong enough on inspiration for most UPC folks). These men understood that the Bible did not fall down from heaven in a leather edition complete with maps. There is often a deconstruction and reconstruction of faith in the process of serious learning; if truth really matters this ought not to bother us. That Bloesch influenced some of the JCM faculty seems to indicate to me that they were looking for models on how to develop a “mediating” system of thought within the school.

Dr. Fudge is certainly passionate about academic freedom. One of the most disturbing violations documented was when the JCM library was “purged” of certain books that were added by Fisher (p. 97-98). Reading a book in no way entails agreement with the content. Academic freedom in the liberal arts and sciences should be non-negotiable. I would hasten to add that academic freedom is a two way street—conservatives must be given the right to speak out about their ideas as well. Absolute academic freedom in theological education is a more difficult question. Biblical Scholars should be able to follow the evidence wherever it leads. But, just about all of the Seminaries that Fudge sites as having problems are financed by evangelical denominations. What, if any say should they have about the teachings of the Seminaries? It is one thing to go after people for trivial doctrinal reasons and hair splitting that are obviously power plays, but what about extreme cases where a professor claims to no longer believe in God or begins to teach the virtues of abortion and wants to keep their job (it has happened)? However, I see nothing that these people in this book believed remotely undermined the life of the Church.

Fudge’s book is well written. The writing and the photographs/documents give a vivid sense of a time and place that is gone, never to return. I don’t agree with him about everything, but he has a gift of combining historical accuracy, deep cultural perception, and theological knowledge of regarding all the issues. Parts of it left me with a troubled sad feeling.

BTW, it seemed obvious to me that one of the conspirators of the secret recordings of the meeting was Fudge himself (it was pretty thinly veiled in my view that he was Manchester). I could be dead wrong about this, but did anyone else that read the book come to this conclusion?

[Reader]

Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?

I believe it is.

[crakjak]

Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?

Yes, it is he, those guys were just all trouble makers. But we should not forget that today heretics are often tomorrow's heroes!

[Disciple4life]

Maybe I should stir up some trouble then somebody would write a book on me!

[Disciple4life]

I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

BTW, it seemed obvious to me that one of the conspirators of the secret recordings of the meeting was Fudge himself (it was pretty thinly veiled in my view that he was Manchester). I could be dead wrong about this, but did anyone else that read the book come to this conclusion?

I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

No huge investment to get 2000 or 3000 books printed, charge a few bucks per sale and it is a win win situation for everybody.

When I was reading the part about the secret recording I couldn't get the mission impossible tune out of my head. So I went back a few line and reread them. Fudge wrote that section with a little more oomph and pizzazz to get a spy movie feel. My two cents.

I don't know if Fudge was physically involved but I did get the feeling that he thought that was the ultra cool part of the story, that he was just dying to write.

[CC1]

I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

No huge investment to get 2000 or 3000 books printed, charge a few bucks per sale and it is a win win situation for everybody.

.

Kindle ebooks are great. They are a great way to publish books with limited appeal since there is zero cost to the author and they get I think 33% of the sell price.

However when it comes to this type book the author probably knows there is an audience of 1000 folks or so that will pay $30 bucks for it and his share of that $30 is substantial after the cost of printing the book. I doubt there are enough of us who would be interested in it at $9.99 in a kindle edition to net him the same amount. BTW "The Winds of God" by Ethel Goss is available as a kindle ebook for $9.99.

[Disciple4life]

My point was that some of this stuff will never be released.

Joseph Howell FSU dissertation “People of the Name”.

Why not release it on Kindle and make a couple of bucks instead of it never seeing the light of day.

In fact Dr. Fudge should start his own publishing company. Every time he mentions a book/paper/article I comb the web for it. He could get my money from buying his book and then get more of my money when I buy the material he publishes.

[CC1]

My point was that some of this stuff will never be released.

Joseph Howell FSU dissertation “People of the Name”.

Why not release it on Kindle and make a couple of bucks instead of it never seeing the light of day.

In fact Dr. Fudge should start his own publishing company. Every time he mentions a book/paper/article I comb the web for it. He could get my money from buying his book and then get more of my money when I buy the material he publishes.

I wonder if anybody has suggested to Joseph Howell that he should publish "People of the Name" as an ebook?

[Reader]

Maybe I should stir up some trouble then somebody would write a book on me!

:heeheehee Pray tell, what are you planning?

[Reader]

I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

Fudge's first book is available in both forms. The Kindle version isn't much difference in price. The PDF is just $9.

You can get Talmadge French's thesis, Early Oneness Pentecostalism, Garfield Thomas Haywood, And The Interracial Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World (1906-1931), in PDF at http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/2869/7/French_11_PhD.pdf

[crakjak]

I wonder if anybody has suggested to Joseph Howell that he should publish "People of the Name" as an ebook?

I would like to read it, how to get it. Also, on of them wrote something about, "My Jouney Out...." How to it get?

[Steve Epley]

Reckon Demas wrote one like that?

[crakjak]

I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

I found very little evidence in Fudge’s book that Lewis, Howell, or Fisher actively taught ideas that would be considered heresy if one defines it by the 1945 merger agreement that allowed divergent views. Jerry Dillon’s views regarding the nature of God were suspect, but when he was questioned about it in a meeting of local Pastor that included conservatives-- they were satisfied with his answers. I certainly don’t think these men would have been considered liberals in the wider world of theological education. If their ideas regarding historical criticism were similar to the text they used by Bernard Ramm, it is hard for me to understand how this could have been problematic to anyone. Dr. Fudge points out that Ramm was influenced by Barth. Much of Barth’s work itself was a reaction against theological liberalism (albeit he would be strong enough on inspiration for most UPC folks). These men understood that the Bible did not fall down from heaven in a leather edition complete with maps. There is often a deconstruction and reconstruction of faith in the process of serious learning; if truth really matters this ought not to bother us. That Bloesch influenced some of the JCM faculty seems to indicate to me that they were looking for models on how to develop a “mediating” system of thought within the school.

Dr. Fudge is certainly passionate about academic freedom. One of the most disturbing violations documented was when the JCM library was “purged” of certain books that were added by Fisher (p. 97-98). Reading a book in no way entails agreement with the content. Academic freedom in the liberal arts and sciences should be non-negotiable. I would hasten to add that academic freedom is a two way street—conservatives must be given the right to speak out about their ideas as well. Absolute academic freedom in theological education is a more difficult question. Biblical Scholars should be able to follow the evidence wherever it leads. But, just about all of the Seminaries that Fudge sites as having problems are financed by evangelical denominations. What, if any say should they have about the teachings of the Seminaries? It is one thing to go after people for trivial doctrinal reasons and hair splitting that are obviously power plays, but what about extreme cases where a professor claims to no longer believe in God or begins to teach the virtues of abortion and wants to keep their job (it has happened)? However, I see nothing that these people in this book believed remotely undermined the life of the Church.

Fudge’s book is well written. The writing and the photographs/documents give a vivid sense of a time and place that is gone, never to return. I don’t agree with him about everything, but he has a gift of combining historical accuracy, deep cultural perception, and theological knowledge of regarding all the issues. Parts of it left me with a troubled sad feeling.

BTW, it seemed obvious to me that one of the conspirators of the secret recordings of the meeting was Fudge himself (it was pretty thinly veiled in my view that he was Manchester). I could be dead wrong about this, but did anyone else that read the book come to this conclusion?

Could you post a copy of Howell's book list?? And the dissertation?

[crakjak]

Reckon Demas wrote one like that?

:foottap:smack:smack:foottap

[RunningOnFaith]

I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

No huge investment to get 2000 or 3000 books printed, charge a few bucks per sale and it is a win win situation for everybody.

When I was reading the part about the secret recording I couldn't get the mission impossible tune out of my head. So I went back a few line and reread them. Fudge wrote that section with a little more oomph and pizzazz to get a spy movie feel. My two cents.

I don't know if Fudge was physically involved but I did get the feeling that he thought that was the ultra cool part of the story, that he was just dying to write.

I am eclectic concerning the format of a book depending on the title. Most books relating to Oneness Pentecostal history-- I prefer a hard copy. Ebooks really come in handy for copying and pasting quotes into papers and in internet discussions like this though.

[RunningOnFaith]

Fudge's first book is available in both forms. The Kindle version isn't much difference in price. The PDF is just $9.

You can get Talmadge French's thesis, Early Oneness Pentecostalism, Garfield Thomas Haywood, And The Interracial Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World (1906-1931), in PDF at http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/2869/7/French_11_PhD.pdf

Thank you for this.

[Disciple4life]

:heeheehee Pray tell, what are you planning?

I'm not planning nothing. I am too busy here typing. I don't have time to go door knocking or street preaching.

[Disciple4life]

Reckon Demas wrote one like that?

Is this a joke that I am too dense to get?

[Reader]

Is this a joke that I am too dense to get?

Demas in the Bible that Paul mentioned. 2 Tim. 4: For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

[Reader]

Thank you for this.

Glad to be able to share something helpful.

[Disciple4life]

Oh, thanks for explaining. It would have bothered me all night.

[Reader]

That will be $30. :)

[Disciple4life]

First you have to write a book about the UPCI and then I will gladly give you $30!

[Reader]

LOL I was hoping to pay for my copy of Heretics by charging you the $30!

[Roxanne Murphy]

Jerry got himself into trouble with Phil Dugas my freshman year. He was the advisor for the senior class. The school had an outing and each class had a skit to do. The senior class did a parody of the bus ministry and the some of the methods that had been used to get kids on the S.S. bus. At the time, PD had four buses and the largest (UPC) bus ministry in PDX. During the senior's skit one of the choruses they sang went something like, "Numbers, numbers, numbers is the name of the game. Just keep them coming through the doors no matter why they came". Bubble gum Sunday took a hit! It didn't matter why they got on the bus, just as long as they GOT on the bus. Coincidentally, there were times that kids were offered things like bubble gum, etc, to attend PD's Sunday school. I think Phil had good motives. He wanted as many kids to learn about Jesus as possible. I think Jerry Dillon had good motives. He was striking out at the obsession with numbers that comes at the expense of true evangelism and discipleship.
Needless to say, PD was furious and personally told me that he considered it an attack on him and his church.
My best friend was a member of the senior class and attending Evangel (Phil Dugas') church. He began to teach home bible studies in his home. He had about 4 months to go to graduate. One of the requirements students of the school had with the Portland area pastors was that they had to select a single church in which they would attend during the school year (usually had a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year to decide which one) and they were forbidden to church hop. It created some problems for those who disagreed with the style or methods or personality of church...they would just have to tough it out for the rest of the year, and they were considered "church members" where they attended. It was actually just free S.S. staffing.
Back to my friend's situation. He was called in to Phil's office and told that he was to cease and desist teaching any more home bible studies. If he continued, Phil threatened to kick him out of the church and he would be unable to graduate as a result. My friend told me that if he wanted to graduate (which he did want to do) he had no choice but to discontinue teaching home bible studies. Phil knew that my friend was a senior and that Jerry Dillon was his advisor. I'm sure that what transpired was in some way connected to Phil's antipathy towards Jerry and secondarily the school

This was Phil Dugas? It sounds more like something His brother Paul would do. I grew up in, and still live in, the Oregon District. Joe Dinwiddie was my first pastor. I was only 5 years old in 1977 but I remember attending Oregon District Camp meeting and a Brother Johnson preaching the camp meeting. I was too young to be aware of any strife back then, but later I came to see Paul Dugas as incredibly critical and rather 'holier-than-thou' persona while on the platform during district meetings that he was 'gracious' enough to attend. Phil Dugas I knew later as one of my instructors at CLC (1991-1993), and then a few years later as pastor of the St. John's church here on the Portland Metro area. Phil seemed much more kind than Paul did.

[Steve Epley]

This may shock some of y'all I was never a member of the UPC as a minister and never attended a UPC church as a saint.

[Roxanne Murphy]

Elder Epley, you are far too conservative to ever be part of the UPC. But your more conservative group has its own terrible moral failing stories, most recently, the man who took over Westberg's church in Kansas. Might we blame those on the strict 'holiness' preaching these men have done? That would be about as fair as blaming Don Fisher's moral failings on his doctrinal positions.

[Steve Epley]

Elder Epley, you are far too conservative to ever be part of the UPC. But your more conservative group has its own terrible moral failing stories, most recently, the man who took over Westberg's church in Kansas. Might we blame those on the strict 'holiness' preaching these men have done? That would be about as fair as blaming Don Fisher's moral failings on his doctrinal positions.

Did I say that? Now if I was quoting EY like he was a saint and scholar you would have a point! These folks are fawning over DF like he is a star. Both DF & EY are a reproach to the gospel not someone to be adoring.

[Sabby]

This was Phil Dugas? It sounds more like something His brother Paul would do. I grew up in, and still live in, the Oregon District. Joe Dinwiddie was my first pastor. I was only 5 years old in 1977 but I remember attending Oregon District Camp meeting and a Brother Johnson preaching the camp meeting. I was too young to be aware of any strife back then, but later I came to see Paul Dugas as incredibly critical and rather 'holier-than-thou' persona while on the platform during district meetings that he was 'gracious' enough to attend. Phil Dugas I knew later as one of my instructors at CLC (1991-1993), and then a few years later as pastor of the St. John's church here on the Portland Metro area. Phil seemed much more kind than Paul did.

Yes, this was Phil. This is in the context of the Culture of the times.
A question was asked earlier on this thread if the acrimony between the district and the school existed before Don Fisher arrived. Yes, there absolutely was.
If I am not mistaken CLC has its own church(?). CBC didn't have that luxury, although in '78 or '79 (can't remember the year) the school made a proposal to the Portland area pastors to allow any students attending their churches to be able to prioritize school functions OVER local church functions. The PDX area pastors by this time were claiming ownership ( which included staffing of S.S. and financial $upport) of students in their churches. The pastors rejected the proposal OUTRIGHT. These things happened with Gary Geason in Oregon City, Bill Davies in McMinnville, B.A. King in Beaverton, Langley in Hillsboro, Barlow in St Helens, Phil in the church at Killingsworth and Paul in St John's just off Lombard Street. I don't know if they rejected the proposal over doctrinal "purity", needing control, or both.
It only weakened the structural integrity of the school and exascerbated the bad vibe between the school and local area pastors. It seemed that the pastors opposed any promotional activity of the school UNLESS it directly benefited their church.

[Abiding Now]

This may shock some of y'all I was never a member of the UPC as a minister and never attended a UPC church as a saint.

And you call yourself a preacher. :foottap

[TJJJ]

Did I say that? Now if I was quoting EY like he was a saint and scholar you would have a point! These folks are fawning over DF like he is a star. Both DF & EY are a reproach to the gospel not someone to be adoring.

Is EY's boy still waiting for trial or did he finally go to prison?

That was a bad deal!

[Steve Epley]

Is EY's boy still waiting for trial or did he finally go to prison?

That was a bad deal!

He was sentenced I imagine he is already in the pen which he deserves.

[Reader]

Is EY's boy still waiting for trial or did he finally go to prison?

That was a bad deal!

Been in prison since August 2012 when he first was arrested. Finally pled on a small number of the charges and rest were dropped.

[Steve Epley]

Been in prison since August 2012 when he first was arrested. Finally pled on a small number of the charges and rest were dropped.

Not so he pled on contest and was sentenced for at least 14 years.

[Reader]

No, he was sentenced to over 20 years. And he pled on a couple charges. Most all were dropped and cannot be brought up again. Pled no contest is correct- he pled. LOL

[crakjak]

Did I say that? Now if I was quoting EY like he was a saint and scholar you would have a point! These folks are fawning over DF like he is a star. Both DF & EY are a reproach to the gospel not someone to be adoring.

"Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life"."

[crakjak]

"Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life"."

"Fawning" Steve??? :smack

[RunningOnFaith]

"Fawning" Steve??? :smack

True, Fudge does not go easy on Fisher in the last chapter. Besides the homosexuality issue, it was disturbing that Fisher had such a poor relationship with his wife and daughters. Fudge records a close member of Fishers family felt no grief whatsoever on account of the poor state of their relationship.

On the other hand, as Yadon points out-- you have to look at the impact of a mans entire life. Because he made some terrible choices does not mean that everything he ever did was worthless. It does not mean that everything he ever thought was destructive, I personally thought there was several intriguing ideas in the sermon "evangelism to the subconscious". His choices later in his life do not make wrong his ideas that students should interact and understand more than what Fudge calls "Denominational Positivism". There is a photo of a letter that Bro. Urshan sent Fisher while he was dying that note his impact on the UPC and that he was praying for his recovery. Such a letter represents compassion and concern that Christian people ought to be known for.

[Steve Epley]

True, Fudge does not go easy on Fisher in the last chapter. Besides the homosexuality issue, it was disturbing that Fisher had such a poor relationship with his wife and daughters. Fudge records a close member of Fishers family felt no grief whatsoever on account of the poor state of their relationship.

On the other hand, as Yadon points out-- you have to look at the impact of a mans entire life. Because he made some terrible choices does not mean that everything he ever did was worthless. It does not mean that everything he ever thought was destructive, I personally thought there was several intriguing ideas in the sermon "evangelism to the subconscious". His choices later in his life do not make wrong his ideas that students should interact and understand more than what Fudge calls "Denominational Positivism". There is a photo of a letter that Bro. Urshan sent Fisher while he was dying that note his impact on the UPC and that he was praying for his recovery. Such a letter represents compassion and concern that Christian people ought to be known for.

I have not read Fudge's new book I wasn't speaking of him I was speaking of some of y'all. :happydance

[Disciple4life]

So let's further the conversation.

In the book, many teachers and students;

left the United Pentecost Church or left the Pentecostal faith or left Christianity.

I can understand the argument that some people are better off leaving a denomination, but leaving Christianity altogether is sad.

[Reader]

but leaving Christianity altogether is sad.

yes it is. Unfortunately it happens. Some seem unable to separate what happened to them from God.

[StillStanding]

So let's further the conversation.

In the book, many teachers and students;

left the United Pentecost Church or left the Pentecostal faith or left Christianity.

I can understand the argument that some people are better off leaving a denomination, but leaving Christianity altogether is sad.

It's the pendulum effect. One tends to take the momentum in the opposite direction when they lose their grip on an extreme position.

[crakjak]

So let's further the conversation.

In the book, many teachers and students;

left the United Pentecost Church or left the Pentecostal faith or left Christianity.

I can understand the argument that some people are better off leaving a denomination, but leaving Christianity altogether is sad.

Many left that had nothing to do with the events in the book, both the UPC and Christianity, so I don't know what that has to do with this context.

[Disciple4life]

If everybody would have only taught approved UPC teachings everybody would be happy. :feral Stirring the pot!

[Disciple4life]

Are we any closer to finding these rare out of print books/PDF/documents?

Because I need a copy to. Or a place to order/find/secure said resources! :woot

[Disciple4life]

I'm just saying if you send your kid to a United Pentecostal College and they come back as a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist or Atheist you might get a little hot under the collar. :spit

[Disciple4life]

Look who I found online. Dan Lewis.

http://setup19.finalweb.net/site/leaderdisplay.asp?leader_id=180007213&sec_id=180011105

He has a number of documents you can download (this is from his current point of view)

http://setup19.finalweb.net/site/outlines.asp?sec_id=180011105&secure=&dlyear=0&dlcat=Theology+and+Ethics

[Reader]

Are we any closer to finding these rare out of print books/PDF/documents?

Because I need a copy to. Or a place to order/find/secure said resources! :woot

I found the one by Lewis (http://www.spiritualabuse.org/books/groups.html)

[Disciple4life]

Yes, Yes YES!!!

Hey that wasn't there a few days ago? Oh well. Everybody enjoy a free book.

[Roxanne Murphy]

Did I say that? Now if I was quoting EY like he was a saint and scholar you would have a point! These folks are fawning over DF like he is a star. Both DF & EY are a reproach to the gospel not someone to be adoring.

Fair enough. However, when you point at the end of DF's life as 'proof' of his error in doctrine, then the same measuring stick should be applied to EY as well, but then that would imply that his ultra conservative preaching and teaching led to his eventual terrible moral failing. Just sayin'!

[Roxanne Murphy]

Yes, this was Phil. This is in the context of the Culture of the times.
A question was asked earlier on this thread if the acrimony between the district and the school existed before Don Fisher arrived. Yes, there absolutely was.
If I am not mistaken CLC has its own church(?). CBC didn't have that luxury, although in '78 or '79 (can't remember the year) the school made a proposal to the Portland area pastors to allow any students attending their churches to be able to prioritize school functions OVER local church functions. The PDX area pastors by this time were claiming ownership ( which included staffing of S.S. and financial $upport) of students in their churches. The pastors rejected the proposal OUTRIGHT. These things happened with Gary Geason in Oregon City, Bill Davies in McMinnville, B.A. King in Beaverton, Langley in Hillsboro, Barlow in St Helens, Phil in the church at Killingsworth and Paul in St John's just off Lombard Street. I don't know if they rejected the proposal over doctrinal "purity", needing control, or both.
It only weakened the structural integrity of the school and exascerbated the bad vibe between the school and local area pastors. It seemed that the pastors opposed any promotional activity of the school UNLESS it directly benefited their church.

That helps me understand! The time period you are referencing I was too young to be aware of all the church politics. And, I lived in the southern part of the state so was removed from it.
Yes CLC has it's own church so that made it very easy for myself and the other students to be involved in lots of different ministry opportunities without all the strife that was going on around CBC.
You mention the mindset that the only time students and the school were utilized was when the pastor of the particular church thought it was of direct benefit to him/'his' church. Sadly I believe this to be true because some of these same men still pastor churches in this state and that is their approach to pretty much anything that comes along. There are a few newer pastors who at times seem to reach out beyond their own personal interests for the sake of bringing the gospel to a lost world, but even all of those things are kept tightly held in the bonds of the official fellowship/district leadership. And they can't seem to figure out why their churches aren't growing (some of them are mere shadows of what they used to be 20 years ago). The trend over the past several years in UPC churches in the Portland Metro Area had been growth by migration from one church to another, and by the young people who get married and stay to raise their families in their home church (or their spouse's home church). And then pretty much the entire Eastern part of the state joined the WPF, making the district smaller in numbers and resources.

[Disciple4life]

I just read - The Journey Out of the United Pentecostal Church by Dan Lewis (there was a link to the PDF a few post ago)
and Don Marler's Imprisoned in the brotherhood.

Anybody read these? Thoughts?

[Sabby]

I had not read the book until I received the (hardback) copy last week. I must have PTSD because Fudge writes as if he were there in the last days of CBC and his reiteration of events are exactly as I remember.
The addendum of letters and Fisher's sermons are items I'll be going over again. The letter that Toole wrote to the District in which he asked the pastors to have ALL licensed ministers attend.....was a mind-blower. My pastor didn't invite me, of that I can assure you.
Lew Davies wrote a beautifully constructed letter to Toole objecting to the way the "by laws" were held in higher regard than the scriptures. Lew was a non-conformist. After resigning First Church he used the broadcasting talents he used and fine-tuned at WABC to instrumentally grow the Salem broadcasting network through the Portland Christian Radio station KPDQ. Lew had the first Christian talk radio program on KPDQ and was responsible for bringing on Georgene Rice, now a well-known black Christian radio personality. His impact on the greater Christian-politico world was great and he helped inform the greater Christian community of pertinent socio-political events on the national level. Leaving the mother-ship was the best thing that could have happened.
The level of acrimony of the pastors towards CBC's staff was as I remember it.
I've recently been in Thailand with Br Nigh, and he is still a Jesus' name, Holy Ghost preacher. He might wear a beard now and then....
Jerry Dillon, imo had the best of intentions but knew full good and well what he was doing when teaching what were (then) controversial topics, particularly in the "Life of Christ" class. He was not innocently "seized upon". He was aware that what he was teaching could (and did) cause tremors in the district. That said, he did not deserve being treated in the despicable manner that he was by the district.
Walter Nigh, who was succeeded by D. Wasmundt, appeared before the Oregon board after graduating from CBC, after interning a year and while on the staff of CBC (circa '81-'83). It was at this time he appeared before the Oregon District Board and was denied his General License, being told to return when his "eschatology" got straightened out. Being from Idaho and being informed by Br Rutzen around the same time that the church in McCall needed a pastor, he subsequently appeared before the Idaho board, which dutifully issued the son of a long-time missionary and CBC alum, one that had not only attended, graduated and taught at a UPC endorsed Bible college a General License.
To say that the Portland area brethren were "guardians" is an understatement.
I theorize that Montague is Fudge, and Maynard is either Dan Sirstad, Mike Nigh, or Kendall Cobb, since a comment was made about a well-known father preacher. I'm not sure about Whalen, although he is probably one of the above.
In sum, a well-researched and documented book.

[Sabby]

I am SO glad I don't live in that toxic environment anymore.
I do not believe, based upon the evidence, that Fisher acted upon his homosexual tendencies while a member of the United Pentecostal Church. There is no empirical evidence, no "victims" have presented themselves. There was MUCH innuendo about Fisher's doctrine, and ad hominem about the man, which tactic also used by those that wish to kill, steal or to destroy someone that threatens the status quo.
I wept when I read of his demise. I was assassinated in character, but not butchered like Fisher was. I agree with Donna his wife that ultimately it was Don's choices and not the fault or blame of one man or district that caused him to walk away from a lifetime of service and into an active homosexual lifestyle. But the "brethren" didn't help much. In fact, they didn't help at all.

[Disciple4life]

I kept wondering something the whole time I read the book.

If there was all this talent and drive to reform the UPCI, why didn't these people leave and start a new denomination/organization?

There were preachers, teachers and theologians that were all on the same page as far as the need for a better system.

Why didn't they create it instead of getting picked off one by one?

After the battles where over many seemed to just go wherever they could. There was no organized effort to leave as a whole, healthy group.

I am not criticizing anyone. It just seems like everyone would receive a beat down then leave hurt and wounded. I know hind sight is always 20/20.

[CC1]

I kept wondering something the whole time I read the book.

If there was all this talent and drive to reform the UPCI, why didn't these people leave and start a new denomination/organization?

There were preachers, teachers and theologians that were all on the same page as far as the need for a better system.

Why didn't they create it instead of getting picked off one by one?

After the battles where over many seemed to just go wherever they could. There was no organized effort to leave as a whole, healthy group.

I am not criticizing anyone. It just seems like everyone would receive a beat down then leave hurt and wounded. I know hind sight is always 20/20.

I have wondered the same thing. Of course I have also wondered why the one step PCI folks ever thought they had a home in an org. with 3 step folks. In my mind they are mutually exclusive from the 3 stepper side. If you truly believe salvation is only through the 3 steps then how could you accept those who taught differently as saved brothers?

I know the response will be about how they had tolerance and things happened like the early Oneness preachers considering trinitarians brothers. That must have been fueled by their recent departure themselves from a different doctrine and their close friendships and respect for those still in it. Once a few years passed that personal connection was not there and the effort at tolerance and inclusion was gone.

[RunningOnFaith]

I have wondered the same thing. Of course I have also wondered why the one step PCI folks ever thought they had a home in an org. with 3 step folks. In my mind they are mutually exclusive from the 3 stepper side. If you truly believe salvation is only through the 3 steps then how could you accept those who taught differently as saved brothers?

I know the response will be about how they had tolerance and things happened like the early Oneness preachers considering trinitarians brothers. That must have been fueled by their recent departure themselves from a different doctrine and their close friendships and respect for those still in it. Once a few years passed that personal connection was not there and the effort at tolerance and inclusion was gone.

Good point. It is hard for me to understand what the PCI folks were thinking at the merger. The doctrine of Salvation is not a peripheral issue.

The saved at repentance group started out in a weak position from the very beginning of the organization in my view. Although they were probably in the majority with the PCI-- upon the merger they effectively put themselves in in a permanent minority. It would only take six years for a figure as beloved as Howard Goss to be voted out as superintendent.

People that held to the PCI views that Fudge describes in his books had a much stronger claim to their historical religious heritage than the liberal/moderate Baptist, Lutherans, Catholics that he compares them to. Some of the professors at those institutions had wandered far from the faith of their fathers. The PCI leaders simply wanted to maintain the diversity that was promised at beginning.

It did not help their cause that they usually capitulated on important points (e.g. Greer favoring the motion to add "for the remission of sins" to the fundamental doctrine).

On P. 360 Fudge asserts that numerous Ministers had talked about leaving with potentially Fisher taking the lead. Evidently, the events that happened at the Bible schools during this period was not of sufficient importance in their own thinking to be a catalyst for them to bolt the UPC. For many, I guess this would only occur when they were basically forced out for refusing to sign the affirmation statement.

[Reader]

Of course I have also wondered why the one step PCI folks ever thought they had a home in an org. with 3 step folks.

It is hard for me to understand what the PCI folks were thinking at the merger.

It is interesting how the focus is often on the PCI at this juncture. What about the PAJC? Why would they ever consider joining with people they knew allowed for the salvation of those that they themselves would consider lost? They were the ones lowering their standards in joining with the PCI. Was it because they gained something from it? Could they have possibly gotten what they wanted/needed (funds, status, buildings, etc.) & then started pushing the PCI out?

The emphasis should be upon the PAJC since they were allowing ones who believed differently to join with them, as the PAJC stand on salvation was narrower.

[Monterrey]

It is interesting how the focus is often on the PCI at this juncture. What about the PAJC? Why would they ever consider joining with people they knew allowed for the salvation of those that they themselves would consider lost? They were the ones lowering their standards in joining with the PCI. Was it because they gained something from it? Could they have possibly gotten what they wanted/needed (funds, status, buildings, etc.) & then started pushing the PCI out?

The emphasis should be upon the PAJC since they were allowing ones who believed differently to join with them, as the PAJC stand on salvation was narrower.

I believe that one of the reasons for the merger was because the PCI had the exemption necessary for the draft which the larger orgs wanted. Remember, the draft was in force then.

Definently not doctrinal that is for sure.

[Reader]

That is interesting Monterrey. I believe the new manual was mostly made of PCI material.

Just what was the motive behind the PAJC? Is this addressed in Fudge's first book?

[Monterrey]

That is interesting Monterrey. I believe the new manual was mostly made of PCI material.

Just what was the motive behind the PAJC? Is this addressed in Fudge's first book?

It has always interested me in to why the merger had to take place. Why would two dissimilar orgs try to merge? There must be an agenda behind a decision like that one.

It could not have been missions as that did not require a merger. But when you look at the time frame of the merger and the apparent inablilty of the larger orgs to obtain the necessary exemption from the draft for ministers, then a reason begins to jump out and also why the larger orgs gave so much in the merger. ie, manual, positions, etc. The PCI was in the driver seat because of what they had.

Apparently, from what I can gather, the PCI had been in existence long enough to fulfill the time frame required from the government. When the war started there was a jump from many orgs to become exempt from the draft so the Government imposed a time limit that the org had to have been in existence. The PCI fulfilled that, the larger oneness orgs did not. They had to merge with an org that had that little qualification.

It is quite possible that they figured by joining with a smaller org that they would then be able to take over later on, just an idea.

[Steve Epley]

It has always interested me in to why the merger had to take place. Why would two dissimilar orgs try to merge? There must be an agenda behind a decision like that one.

It could not have been missions as that did not require a merger. But when you look at the time frame of the merger and the apparent inablilty of the larger orgs to obtain the necessary exemption from the draft for ministers, then a reason begins to jump out and also why the larger orgs gave so much in the merger. ie, manual, positions, etc. The PCI was in the driver seat because of what they had.

Apparently, from what I can gather, the PCI had been in existence long enough to fulfill the time frame required from the government. When the war started there was a jump from many orgs to become exempt from the draft so the Government imposed a time limit that the org had to have been in existence. The PCI fulfilled that, the larger oneness orgs did not. They had to merge with an org that had that little qualification.

It is quite possible that they figured by joining with a smaller org that they would then be able to take over later on, just an idea.

If my memory serves me correctly on what I have read and heard the merger attempt has occurred twice and failed. I do know Witherspoon had to drag the PAJC into it. Their paper existed for season after the merger and every article nearly was putting out fires the body of the PAJC was not happy. But since the PCI was more locale many PAJCers had no idea what they believed at the time of the merger, then it must be remembered the majority of the PCI believed the new birth message it was the main leaders who did not and they were not very vocal nationally about it. Many think because Gurley and others did not believe the new birth it was common among them but in truth it was not.

[shazeep]

buncha guys fighting over doctrine, words, and the whole time demonstrating that none of them had a clue, where it really counts. I'll stick to my heresy, ty! :lol

[AR Pastor]

Never understood the merger. Think it was a very big mistake.

[jfrog]

Perhaps it was a great experiment to see if the Holy Ghost would guide those within the organization into all truth.

[kclee4jc]

Never understood the merger. Think it was a very big mistake.

I agree.

[kclee4jc]

Perhaps it was a great experiment to see if the Holy Ghost would guide those within the organization into all truth.

I wonder the same.

[shazeep]

:lol --but seriously, that is when Christ will return. I keep looking for signs of stones gathering, but mostly see them still scattering.

[kclee4jc]

:lol --but seriously, that is when Christ will return. I keep looking for signs of stones gathering, but mostly see them still scattering.

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Of course there are those who are going liberal and falling away too!

[AR Pastor]

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Of course there are those who are going liberal and falling away too!

I agree>

I am UPC but fellowship UPC, GIB, WPF and any man or church who preaches the fullness of the gospel. Good holiness people.

Don't fellowship libs. Don't mistreat them but don't go to their meetings or have them preach here.

[kclee4jc]

I agree>

I am UPC but fellowship UPC, GIB, WPF and any man or church who preaches the fullness of the gospel. Good holiness people.

Don't fellowship libs. Don't mistreat them but don't go to their meetings or have them preach here.

My pastor is currently licensed UPC but we have very little fellowship with them. We fellowship WPF, AMF, and GIBs. Our church is independent.

One thing I have seen is there have been several churches in the last 5 years or so that have strengthened their stands. I really didnt realize how liberal my convictions and lifestyle standards were while we were still fellowshipping the UPC. Since the Tampa resolution when several pulled out, I think a lot of churches have raised their standard. I know there was not really any fellowship with the AMF brethren and your more conservative UPC, but now since those who have pulled out of the UPC have gotten stronger there is more unity and fellowship between conservative Apostolics as a whole IMO.

My pastor went to the AMC conference even when he was still active in the UPCI, so we have had some strong holiness influence for quite a while now. I really appreciate a man of God that is not afraid to go even beyond what he was taught to find the heartbeat of God and good holiness fellowship.

[Disciple4life]

As far as the merger goes, somebody on this forum once said

that before the merger you couldn't tell whether a church was PCI or PAJC because ACTS 2:38 was preached just as strong in both groups. Some members of churches didn't even know their pastor believed somebody was saved at belief because they preached ACTS 2:28 so strongly.

I can't remember who said it. BUT I know I read it here somewhere.

[jfrog]

As far as the merger goes, somebody on this forum once said

that before the merger you couldn't tell whether a church was PCI or PAJC because ACTS 2:38 was preached just as strong in both groups. Some members of churches didn't even know their pastor believed somebody was saved at belief because they preached ACTS 2:28 so strongly.

I can't remember who said it. BUT I know I read it here somewhere.

If that is 100% true it gives alot of credence to the view that the congregations of saved at faith pastors likely believed the other way and so the pastor intentionally didn't ever mention when salvation occurred?

It's not something I can prove but its about the only sensible reason that doctrine wouldn't have been preached on even once.

[AR Pastor]

My pastor is currently licensed UPC but we have very little fellowship with them. We fellowship WPF, AMF, and GIBs. Our church is independent.

One thing I have seen is there have been several churches in the last 5 years or so that have strengthened their stands. I really didnt realize how liberal my convictions and lifestyle standards were while we were still fellowshipping the UPC. Since the Tampa resolution when several pulled out, I think a lot of churches have raised their standard. I know there was not really any fellowship with the AMF brethren and your more conservative UPC, but now since those who have pulled out of the UPC have gotten stronger there is more unity and fellowship between conservative Apostolics as a whole IMO.

My pastor went to the AMC conference even when he was still active in the UPCI, so we have had some strong holiness influence for quite a while now. I really appreciate a man of God that is not afraid to go even beyond what he was taught to find the heartbeat of God and good holiness fellowship.

We have been to AMC too. IT was very good. We go to camp meeting in North little Rock too. Won't make it this year though. I have many friend in the WPF.

My fellowship in the UPC are with conservative churches.

A card in a man's pocket means nothing to me, it's the message he preaches.

[kclee4jc]

We have been to AMC too. IT was very good. We go to camp meeting in North little Rock too. Won't make it this year though. I have many friend in the WPF.

My fellowship in the UPC are with conservative churches.

A card in a man's pocket means nothing to me, it's the message he preaches.

Agreed

[Disciple4life]

OK I found the thread that I was talking about. It's been a while since I read it but what I remember it was a lively thread.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=554&highlight=Difference+PCI+Merger+Current+Counterfei ts

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The PCI men baptized 1,000's in Jesus Name, they preached Acts 2:38 as fervently as PAJC men did. They were NOT ashamed to be identified with the Jesus Name Pentecostal Movement. These johnie-come-lately folks want to be identified with anything but the Jesus Name Pentecostal movement. They have more in common with the Charismatic and Trinitarian movement. They did not teach Oneness in PRIVATE classes or baptism on the sly. They were unashamably Oneness and stressed baptism in Jesus Name. Were they correct on the necessity of baptism(FOR remission of sins) no. But they fervently preached and baptized in Jesus Name they were not ashamed.

[RunningOnFaith]

I believe that one of the reasons for the merger was because the PCI had the exemption necessary for the draft which the larger orgs wanted. Remember, the draft was in force then.

Definently not doctrinal that is for sure.

I have read that many joined the PAW around the time of WWI because the organization had the draft exemption. I have never read this concerning the PAJC. Although there were peacetime drafts, it would not make sense for me for this to be a determining factor for the PAJC to merge--WWII had ended months prior to the merger,

[RunningOnFaith]

It is interesting how the focus is often on the PCI at this juncture. What about the PAJC? Why would they ever consider joining with people they knew allowed for the salvation of those that they themselves would consider lost? They were the ones lowering their standards in joining with the PCI. Was it because they gained something from it? Could they have possibly gotten what they wanted/needed (funds, status, buildings, etc.) & then started pushing the PCI out?

The emphasis should be upon the PAJC since they were allowing ones who believed differently to join with them, as the PAJC stand on salvation was narrower.

It seems to me that people probably wonder more about the PCI because in hindsight we can see that their ideas ultimate lost out. I don't think Witherspoon was thinking strategically about how the PACJ could gain control. The motive were undoubtedly good on both sides, but the PAJC had to be aware that that at least from doctrinal standpoint, they would be the majority.

[RunningOnFaith]

If my memory serves me correctly on what I have read and heard the merger attempt has occurred twice and failed. I do know Witherspoon had to drag the PAJC into it. Their paper existed for season after the merger and every article nearly was putting out fires the body of the PAJC was not happy. But since the PCI was more locale many PAJCers had no idea what they believed at the time of the merger, then it must be remembered the majority of the PCI believed the new birth message it was the main leaders who did not and they were not very vocal nationally about it. Many think because Gurley and others did not believe the new birth it was common among them but in truth it was not.

Do you think it is safe to say that at that point in time even many of the PAJC folks believed in ideas like the light doctrine, friends of the bride, etc? This idea would be considered compromise now, but at one time could not one hold to this belief and yet still be considered to be firmly in the Water/Spirit camp? There would not be as big of a gap between a light water/spirit believer and a saved at repentance person as there would be with someone who believed ardently in Holy Ghost or Hell.

Also, did not some of the PAJC brethren refuse to join at the merger?

[shazeep]

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Of course there are those who are going liberal and falling away too!:lol well, this is great to hear! Because it is you all who might be termed If my people, who are called by my name...and we could sure use some healing about now. Harbingers don't lie.

[Reader]

Don't fellowship libs. Don't mistreat them but don't go to their meetings or have them preach here.

You actually do since you are affiliated with the UPC and there are libs in that group. You may not attend some of their churches, but you are in fellowship with them. Why don't you just hook up with the WPF since you appear to be much more aligned with them in your thinking?

My pastor is currently licensed UPC but we have very little fellowship with them. We fellowship WPF, AMF, and GIBs. Our church is independent.

If your pastor holds license with the UPC, the UPC counts the church as one of theirs. UPC Manual. In fact, they are supposed to have a sign on the church, indicating they are UPC.

Why does he remain with a group where he won't fellowship with the people? This makes no sense to me.

If that is 100% true it gives alot of credence to the view that the congregations of saved at faith pastors likely believed the other way and so the pastor intentionally didn't ever mention when salvation occurred?


Read Fudge's book. There were a number who did not keep their views secret and were looked down upon for it. C.H. Yadon was one. The entire Northwest was infiltrated by others because they were known to be "weak on the message."

I have read that many joined the PAW around the time of WWI because the organization had the draft exemption. I have never read this concerning the PAJC. Although there were peacetime drafts, it would not make sense for me for this to be a determining factor for the PAJC to merge--WWII had ended months prior to the merger,

But was the draft yet in effect? If the answer was yes, I could still see it as a factor. There was after war things to take care of and they may have been uneasy as to if peace would last. Just a thought on it.

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Probably out of necessity since they were essentially cut off from thousands of UPC people. When one's ranks become smaller, one sometimes has to reach out beyond their own group for fellowship. Thus it may appear to be stronger and more teaching holiness stronger because that is all they now see.

[AR Pastor]

You actually do since you are affiliated with the UPC and there are libs in that group. You may not attend some of their churches, but you are in fellowship with them. Why don't you just hook up with the WPF since you appear to be much more aligned with them in your thinking?



If your pastor holds license with the UPC, the UPC counts the church as one of theirs. UPC Manual. In fact, they are supposed to have a sign on the church, indicating they are UPC.

Why does he remain with a group where he won't fellowship with the people? This makes no sense to me.



Read Fudge's book. There were a number who did not keep their views secret and were looked down upon for it. C.H. Yadon was one. The entire Northwest was infiltrated by others because they were known to be "weak on the message."



But was the draft yet in effect? If the answer was yes, I could still see it as a factor. There was after war things to take care of and they may have been uneasy as to if peace would last. Just a thought on it.



Probably out of necessity since they were essentially cut off from thousands of UPC people. When one's ranks become smaller, one sometimes has to reach out beyond their own group for fellowship. Thus it may appear to be stronger and more teaching holiness stronger because that is all they now see.

Just because I am UPC does not mean I fellowship them all.

If you never see each other then what fellowship do you have?

And for me when I say fellowship. I mean I don't run with them. I don't go to their meetings or preach for them and they don't preach for me.

Why leave the UPC I have many friends in the org. I also have many friends that are WPF or ind. I can fellowship like minded men without belonging to their org.

[Reader]

You have fellowship since you choose to affiliate with the organization, even though you apparently believe most in it are not worthy of your fellowship. You choose to hold license there, choose to regularly sign their affirmation, and choose to abide by their Manual.

I understand you are mainly looking at fellowship as in person activities, but I wanted to point out that you yet fellowship with the group.

Why leave? Because you apparently believe they are weak in holiness standards, enough so that you would not have in person church fellowship with the majority of them. And since you believe these to be a deal breaker, and you say you won't push your beliefs so as to cause division (you agree to do that in order to become a minister), I would think you would be better suited in a place such as the WPF. The way you have described it, it appears you do cause division by refusing to fellowship at churches where the pastors hold the exact same license as you.

I guess I view it similar to how you shared that it was a mistake to have the merger that formed the UPC. Some of your holiness views are in contrast to UPC written policy, thus not making it a good merge.

[AR Pastor]

You have fellowship since you choose to affiliate with the organization, even though you apparently believe most in it are not worthy of your fellowship. You choose to hold license there, choose to regularly sign their affirmation, and choose to abide by their Manual.

I understand you are mainly looking at fellowship as in person activities, but I wanted to point out that you yet fellowship with the group.

Why leave? Because you apparently believe they are weak in holiness standards, enough so that you would not have in person church fellowship with the majority of them. And since you believe these to be a deal breaker, and you say you won't push your beliefs so as to cause division (you agree to do that in order to become a minister), I would think you would be better suited in a place such as the WPF. The way you have described it, it appears you do cause division by refusing to fellowship at churches where the pastors hold the exact same license as you.

I guess I view it similar to how you shared that it was a mistake to have the merger that formed the UPC. Some of your holiness views are in contrast to UPC written policy, thus not making it a good merge.

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say with the majority. I don't believe that the case at all.

But whatever you believe what you like.

I know very few in the UPC who fellowship with everyone.

And NO just having a card does not mean that we are all in fellowship with each other..

[Reader]

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say with the majority. I don't believe that the case at all.

I apologize if I assumed wrong. I got that impression from things you have posted, such as "My fellowship in the UPC are with conservative churches." A good number of the conservative churches left when the TV resolution was passed (at least the more conservative).

And NO just having a card does not mean that we are all in fellowship with each other..

It is a ministerial fellowship, is it not? Have you not agreed to be part of the fellowship by obtaining license?

[returnman]

Yes, this was Phil. This is in the context of the Culture of the times.
A question was asked earlier on this thread if the acrimony between the district and the school existed before Don Fisher arrived. Yes, there absolutely was.
If I am not mistaken CLC has its own church(?). CBC didn't have that luxury, although in '78 or '79 (can't remember the year) the school made a proposal to the Portland area pastors to allow any students attending their churches to be able to prioritize school functions OVER local church functions. The PDX area pastors by this time were claiming ownership ( which included staffing of S.S. and financial $upport) of students in their churches. The pastors rejected the proposal OUTRIGHT. These things happened with Gary Geason in Oregon City, Bill Davies in McMinnville, B.A. King in Beaverton, Langley in Hillsboro, Barlow in St Helens, Phil in the church at Killingsworth and Paul in St John's just off Lombard Street. I don't know if they rejected the proposal over doctrinal "purity", needing control, or both.
It only weakened the structural integrity of the school and exascerbated the bad vibe between the school and local area pastors. It seemed that the pastors opposed any promotional activity of the school UNLESS it directly benefited their church.

My experience and background in later years incline me to believe this wholeheartedly.

[returnman]

True, Fudge does not go easy on Fisher in the last chapter. Besides the homosexuality issue, it was disturbing that Fisher had such a poor relationship with his wife and daughters. Fudge records a close member of Fishers family felt no grief whatsoever on account of the poor state of their relationship.

On the other hand, as Yadon points out-- you have to look at the impact of a mans entire life. Because he made some terrible choices does not mean that everything he ever did was worthless. It does not mean that everything he ever thought was destructive, I personally thought there was several intriguing ideas in the sermon "evangelism to the subconscious". His choices later in his life do not make wrong his ideas that students should interact and understand more than what Fudge calls "Denominational Positivism". There is a photo of a letter that Bro. Urshan sent Fisher while he was dying that note his impact on the UPC and that he was praying for his recovery. Such a letter represents compassion and concern that Christian people ought to be known for.

Don Fisher's dad was one of the kindest people I ever knew. My guess would be the he held a PCI view and was labeled "weak on the message". If wrong on that....correct me.

[Sabby]

Don Fisher's dad was one of the kindest people I ever knew. My guess would be the he held a PCI view and was labeled "weak on the message". If wrong on that....correct me.

Harry had a gentle spirit.

There are some on this thread making the same mistakes that the Portland area pastors made by making judgments based upon incomplete information and assumptions. I would suggest before broad-brushing anyone with a PCI view that you meet and get to know them personally without hearsay filters getting in the way.

There's others that wonder out-loud why the merger happened in the first place. There was a sincere desire on the behalf of both Jesus' name orgs to grow the kingdom. No one thought that the "children" would forget the will of the fathers (Loren Yadon). I hadn't thought about the draft being a motivator to merge, but I can't resource anything that would make it more than conjecture.

Someone else asked why they didn't just "get together" and form their own group. They joined Global, the International Ministerial Association, Bethel or stayed independent. Some of the larger independents were strong and large enough to credential their own.
So "WHY" didn't they form their own group? The strong spirit of disunity led the "guardians" of the "faith" to drive the "heretics" from their midst. The children of the "guardians" live on today. They claim to see, yet their blindness remains. The spirit of disunity, accusation, hearsay, slander, false accusations... lives on.
I can tell you from personal experience that slanderous attacks occur when someone perceived as "weak on the message" won't move on.

[returnman]

Harry had a gentle spirit.

There are some on this thread making the same mistakes that the Portland area pastors made by making judgments based upon incomplete information and assumptions. I would suggest before broad-brushing anyone with a PCI view that you meet and get to know them personally without hearsay filters getting in the way.

There's others that wonder out-loud why the merger happened in the first place. There was a sincere desire on the behalf of both Jesus' name orgs to grow the kingdom. No one thought that the "children" would forget the will of the fathers (Loren Yadon). I hadn't thought about the draft being a motivator to merge, but I can't resource anything that would make it more than conjecture.

Someone else asked why they didn't just "get together" and form their own group. They joined Global, the International Ministerial Association, Bethel or stayed independent. Some of the larger independents were strong and large enough to credential their own.
So "WHY" didn't they form their own group? The strong spirit of disunity led the "guardians" of the "faith" to drive the "heretics" from their midst. The children of the "guardians" live on today. They claim to see, yet their blindness remains. The spirit of disunity, accusation, hearsay, slander, false accusations... lives on.
I can tell you from personal experience that slanderous attacks occur when someone perceived as "weak on the message" won't move on.

Hope you didn't think I was being critical of Bro. Fisher....just the opposite. I think his gentleness (not weak) prefaced my opinion of his doctrinal views which was error on my part. We have talked a lot in private Sabby.

[returnman]

That helps me understand! The time period you are referencing I was too young to be aware of all the church politics. And, I lived in the southern part of the state so was removed from it.
Yes CLC has it's own church so that made it very easy for myself and the other students to be involved in lots of different ministry opportunities without all the strife that was going on around CBC.
You mention the mindset that the only time students and the school were utilized was when the pastor of the particular church thought it was of direct benefit to him/'his' church. Sadly I believe this to be true because some of these same men still pastor churches in this state and that is their approach to pretty much anything that comes along. There are a few newer pastors who at times seem to reach out beyond their own personal interests for the sake of bringing the gospel to a lost world, but even all of those things are kept tightly held in the bonds of the official fellowship/district leadership. And they can't seem to figure out why their churches aren't growing (some of them are mere shadows of what they used to be 20 years ago). The trend over the past several years in UPC churches in the Portland Metro Area had been growth by migration from one church to another, and by the young people who get married and stay to raise their families in their home church (or their spouse's home church). And then pretty much the entire Eastern part of the state joined the WPF, making the district smaller in numbers and resources.

Been there and got the T-shirt.

[returnman]

Is bro. Moyer mentioned in the book? I used to have a copy of a summary of his teachings. Seems he was pretty strong on the doctrine from what I recall in those writings....Sabby?

[Sabby]

Are you referring to Hulon?

[Sabby]

I'm sorry, I misread your post. Ernie Moyer is mentioned frequently in the book and is credited for being personally responsible for getting the bank financing for the purchase of the property.
I met him while going to school and worked one school year as a gardener at Harvest Home, the assisted living facility he started a block away from the school. Moyer was a visionary and had a good spirit.

[RunningOnFaith]

Don Fisher's dad was one of the kindest people I ever knew. My guess would be the he held a PCI view and was labeled "weak on the message". If wrong on that....correct me.

My impression from the book was that Fisher was a product of the PCI ethos of the Northwest. I will have to check the book again see what it specifically says about the teachings of the elder Rev. Fisher specifically. Having known him personally would make you a far greater authority on the man than I would be, I would never presume to correct you. I made the comment's regarding Fisher because it was indicated that Fudge or some folks here who had posted were looking at Fisher's career with rose colored glasses--that was not accurate.

I don't have the book with me, but I got the impression that C.H. Yadon's brother C.M. was in the Water/Spirit camp. Fudge describes some interesting things that occurred while C.M. Yadon's son was teaching at CBC. It is only conjecture on my part, but it strikes me as plausible that some of those with PCI beliefs discarded some of their beliefs when they discovered which way the wind was blowing within the Organization. The pull to assimilate and obey authority can be pretty strong even for preachers.

[RunningOnFaith]

BTW, some may be interested in watching these lectures by Dr. Fudge. Whatever ones doctrinal position, all of these lectures are informative and interesting. He is a very engaging lecturer. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgTDplQabRk

[NotforSale]

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Of course there are those who are going liberal and falling away too!

This is nothing but a "Trend" that will befall in time. When any Group attempts to accept others that have a different set of rules, the Handwriting is on the Wall.

I simply don't understand why we think our Era of time is void of repeating what has already happened.

In the end, Religion will always cut and divide, not bring people together in peace. Until Spectral Evidence is truly clarified within the Ranks of Religion, people will continue to create Dogmas that repel unity.

[Charnock]

BTW, some may be interested in watching these lectures by Dr. Fudge. Whatever ones doctrinal position, all of these lectures are informative and interesting. He is a very engaging lecturer. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgTDplQabRk

Thank you very much for posting this link. I intend to watch all of the lectures.

[shazeep]

Until Spectral Evidence is truly clarified within the Ranks of Religion, people will continue to create Dogmas that repel unity.i think that evidence can only be clarified outside those ranks; the two seem anathema to me. If religion is "man's attempts to reach God," how can it ever succeed?

[NotforSale]

i think that evidence can only be clarified outside those ranks; the two seem anathema to me. If religion is "man's attempts to reach God," how can it ever succeed?

I agree. Spectral Evidence is the reason we have so many different Religions in the World. This is why the Courts shy away from Religious Law, as most of the Laws within Religion are based off of unproven Evidence.

Every single Christian I've spoken with, from numerous Denominations, they all say, "God told me". Since validating this is impossible, Laws are made that people cannot question and must obey, or else.

Unless they decide to become the enemy of that Faith, using valid Evidence to solidify Truth, not just ideas of a select Group who claims God's favor.

[Disciple4life]

BTW, some may be interested in watching these lectures by Dr. Fudge. Whatever ones doctrinal position, all of these lectures are informative and interesting. He is a very engaging lecturer. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgTDplQabRk

I watched 3 or 4 of these videos. Not bad. Just not earth shattering.

Oh well there better than TV.

[Disciple4life]

I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

RunningOnFaith,

I was wondering, did you receive it yet? Did you read it? How was it and what did you think?

[Disciple4life]

Bump

Are we done with this thread? :throwrock

[Disciple4life]

A new book just came out!

Anthology
The Life & Times of Thomas L. Craft
by Penny Watkins

I have it ordered through PPH. Here is a link. http://pentecostalpublishing.com/product/anthology-0

Thoughts?

I thought it would interest some here since Thomas Craft name came up in this thread.

We can talk about Fisher but not Craft?

[CC1]

A new book just came out!

Anthology
The Life & Times of Thomas L. Craft
by Penny Watkins

I have it ordered through PPH. Here is a link. http://pentecostalpublishing.com/product/anthology-0

Thoughts?

I thought it would interest some here since Thomas Craft name came up in this thread.

We can talk about Fisher but not Craft?

What is there to talk about TLC? He is clearly and firmly a 3 stepper. He is a very personable person. When Don Fisher came to JCM they were known as "Velvet & Steel" with TLC being the Velvet.

I am sure this book is an interesting look at TLC's ministry when has had much success and some bumps in the road but I am willing to bet it will not tackle controversial or difficult subjects.

If you want some inside perspective on TLC during the JCM days read the pdf you can find online for free of the Dan Lewis publication "Why I left the United Pentecostal Church". He mentions in detail several instances of how TLC handled the possibility that some JCM staff members were not doctrinally aligned with him and the vast majority of the UPC.

[Disciple4life]

What is there to talk about TLC? He is clearly and firmly a 3 stepper. He is a very personable person. When Don Fisher came to JCM they were known as "Velvet & Steel" with TLC being the Velvet.

I am sure this book is an interesting look at TLC's ministry when has had much success and some bumps in the road but I am willing to bet it will not tackle controversial or difficult subjects.

If you want some inside perspective on TLC during the JCM days read the pdf you can find online for free of the Dan Lewis publication "Why I left the United Pentecostal Church". He mentions in detail several instances of how TLC handled the possibility that some JCM staff members were not doctrinally aligned with him and the vast majority of the UPC.

Not looking for more controversy. I just believe there are two sides to every story.

If a person only read Fudges book they might not get the full picture of who Craft was.
I am not looking for an angel or a devil. I want to read more to get a balanced view.

I am not one of those people that read only books that I already agree with everything they say.
Wow that would be a huge waste of time. :happydance

[CC1]

I just don't think you are going to find anything enlightening in this new book about TLC. It is written as a love letter to a beloved pastor and I will be shocked if there is anything revealing in it. Having said that, like you I want to read it.

[Disciple4life]

I just don't think you are going to find anything enlightening in this new book about TLC. It is written as a love letter to a beloved pastor and I will be shocked if there is anything revealing in it. Having said that, like you I want to read it.

I read the book about Tommy Craft. What a great story! He seemed like a terrific pastor and preacher. I think everyone agrees that Tommy Loved people and the saints of his congregation.

So many times we talk about one steppers and three steppers and we forget that our theology doesn't define us as a person.
A three stepper can have a huge heart and a one stepper can be a mean old crab. Or vice versa.

I want to fellowship with all Apostolics and not pre-judge somebody on their theology.

[RunningOnFaith]

I watched 3 or 4 of these videos. Not bad. Just not earth shattering.

Oh well there better than TV.

I believe they were produced by a homeschooling curriculum company. I have listened to a similar course put out by "The Great Courses"-- and even though I have only listened to about 20 so far, I prefer Fudge's course over that of Luke Timothy Johnson. Fudge incorporates far more of the original sources within his course, which I really like. Fudge is good when he is dealing with the late middle ages and reformation-- the lectures on the medieval conception of hell, the mystics, and the crusades were particularly fascinating.

[CC1]

I read the book about Tommy Craft. What a great story! He seemed like a terrific pastor and preacher. I think everyone agrees that Tommy Loved people and the saints of his congregation.

So many times we talk about one steppers and three steppers and we forget that our theology doesn't define us as a person.
A three stepper can have a huge heart and a one stepper can be a mean old crab. Or vice versa.

I want to fellowship with all Apostolics and not pre-judge somebody on their theology.

One of the great things about TLC is that while he holds strongly to his fairly conservative views he does not base relationships / friendships on others agreeing with him.

It would have been easy for him to essentially excommunicate (have nothing to do with) those JCM students who have "gone charismatic" as they say. However he chose not to do that.

He has openly talked about criticism he has gotten for attending JCM reunions in 2005 and 2010 that had a lot of these folks. He said we are all family and you don't go to a family reunion because there is an uncle or aunt there you disagree with about some things.

I highly respect him for this.

[Disciple4life]

Does anybody know how to get-

Joseph Howell's FSU dissertation “People of the Name”?

[derAlte]

I'm just finishing the book...I was acquainted with so many of the people mentioned and have fond memories of most of them. C.H. Yadon preached at our church back when I sat behind Columbus in the third grade. My impression was that Elder Yadon was a kindly, decent gentleman and I thoroughly enjoyed the wisdom that he shared and making his acquaintance. We never had a clue that he wasn't a three-step guy. I loved the Yadon quote that Dr. Fudge mentions in his book...too many preachers are trying to get a dollar's worth of shout out of a nickel's worth of truth. True, that!

[derAlte]

One thing that I think is neglected by Fudge is the source of the worldview of the so-called "missionary" pastors from other parts of the country who moved to the Northwest. Their tradition & world-view was different from that of the PCI men of the Great Northwest but I think it would have made the book better if Fudge had evenly chronicled the spiritual and intellectual roots of men like Barry King and Paul Dugas and why these were in such conflict with the PCI men. The PAJC tradition is presented as monolithic and the men that believed it as the villains. Barry King (as well as David Johnson) spent their formative years in Oklahoma attending Apostolic College that was founded and operated by C.P. Williams. This school had an influence on the United Pentecostal Church that was significant but seems unknown to present generations. I'd like to know what C.P. Williams' worldview was and how much of it was imbibed by his many students.

[Steve Epley]

One thing that I think is neglected by Fudge is the source of the worldview of the so-called "missionary" pastors from other parts of the country who moved to the Northwest. Their tradition & world-view was different from that of the PCI men of the Great Northwest but I think it would have made the book better if Fudge had evenly chronicled the spiritual and intellectual roots of men like Barry King and Paul Dugas and why these were in such conflict with the PCI men. The PAJC tradition is presented as monolithic and the men that believed it as the villains. Barry King (as well as David Johnson) spent their formative years in Oklahoma attending Apostolic College that was founded and operated by C.P. Williams. This school had an influence on the United Pentecostal Church that was significant but seems unknown to present generations. I'd like to know what C.P. Williams' worldview was and how much of it was imbibed by his many students.
Elder C. P. Williams was a strong new birth man. That was strongly taught at the College.

[returnman]

Old thread. I am wrapping up this book and apologize if this opens up a wound with anyone. Found it to be informative although I was already somewhat familiar with the situation from an outsider perspective. The thing I find hard to fathom as portrayed in the book is that Fisher went back to the NW with the idea that it was still deeply rooted in PCI influence and that his teaching would be accepted as such. As if his influence was not deliberate or intentional. I know the writer gives room that his actions where intentional. As a minister in the UPC he had to know all to well what he was getting into. The "missionaries" had been coming from CA and the south since the early 70's.

[Disciple4life]

It is my opinion that,

Fisher thought that he had enough like minded people to start the wheels of reformation.

Kind of like Martin Luther.
From what I understand Martin Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic Church.

[Scott Pitta]

Several stories from the early years of Pentecost need to be told. The history of the2 Bible Colleges down South need to be written.

The small Bible schools in the west have their own story and understanding their relationship with each other is something I am exploring. They were located in Caldwell, Idaho; and in Oakland, Stockton and Fresno, California.

None of them survived WW2. Understanding their contribution to the Oneness movement is worthy of evaluation.

Pick a topic, do the research and publish a book.

[returnman]

Several stories from the early years of Pentecost need to be told. The history of the2 Bible Colleges down South need to be written.

The small Bible schools in the west have their own story and understanding their relationship with each other is something I am exploring. They were located in Caldwell, Idaho; and in Oakland, Stockton and Fresno, California.

None of them survived WW2. Understanding their contribution to the Oneness movement is worthy of evaluation.

Pick a topic, do the research and publish a book.

That would be a challenge. Especially the one in Oakland since most folks are probably dead. Take that back. All have to be gone.

[Scott Pitta]

I have interviewed former students, so they are not all dead.

I am mostly done exploring the relationship between the prewar Bible schools in California. I have not been able to gather enough data to write about the Bible school in Caldwell, Idaho.

Madison Tatman, the Cyclone evangelist, was a ministry friend of Harry Morse. Considerable work was done on his biography this week.

Be patient with writers of biographies !! :)

[Godsdrummer]

I have to say this was and is a interesting thread, I did not start coming into the lounge until a few years ago, stayed in the debate section most of the time.

I was born and raised in the state of Washington, spent most of that time in the church in the Tri Cities Kennewick which for several years was the only church in the Tri Cities. Tommy Odaniel was out of our church and I am personal friends with the Odaniel family. When I was 9 we moved to Portland and attended the Sponslers church. Then moved to Pendleton OR. while the Rutzens were still pastors. Not sure the salvational stand was of these two pastors, but I know that both did not teach the standards as they were taught in Kennewick under the Hurst. Which is funny because in Washington state the Hurst were looked on as liberal.

At my age, not knowing all the ins and outs of three steppers, verses one steppers, it was liberals verses hard liners. Being raised a three stepper, it was only in the last few years that I changed from that to a one stepper. To find out a year later there were many that believed and taught that from the start of the UPCI.

All that to say, those that were of the PCI mind set, were far gentler in spirit than three steppers. That spoke volumes to me. Speaking from my own personal experience being in the ministry for 20 plus years in Washington. I can see how Fisher might have thought he had enough support to bring in a reform. Had the control of the college been in Washington instead of Oregon. But by the time of the move to Washington it was too late.