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View Full Version : Court FORCES Baker to make wedding cakes for GAYS


oneinkhorn
06-06-2014, 09:17 PM
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/us/article/Panel-Baker-must-make-cakes-for-gay-weddings-5516802.php

Panel: Baker must make cakes for gay weddings

http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/30/25/00/6377500/3/622x350.jpg

In this March 10, 2014 file photo, Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips decorates a cake inside his store, in Lakewood, Colo. Colorado's Civil Rights Commission on Friday upheld a judge's ruling that Phillips cannot refuse to make wedding cakes for same-sex couples, despite Phillips' cited religious opposition to same sex marriage. The panel says doing so violates state laws prohibiting businesses from discriminating against gay people.

FlamingZword
06-06-2014, 10:25 PM
In this March 10, 2014 file photo, Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips decorates a cake inside his store, in Lakewood, Colo. Colorado's Civil Rights Commission on Friday upheld a judge's ruling that Phillips cannot refuse to make wedding cakes for same-sex couples, despite Phillips' cited religious opposition to same sex marriage. The panel says doing so violates state laws prohibiting businesses from discriminating against gay people.

He quit making cakes for anybody.

CC1
06-06-2014, 11:47 PM
Much sooner than I ever thought possible the church in the USA will be facing the prospect that teaching what the Bible teaches will be considered "hate speech".

oneinkhorn
06-07-2014, 05:50 AM
Much sooner than I ever thought possible the church in the USA will be facing the prospect that teaching what the Bible teaches will be considered "hate speech".


During a message given at Easter (IN CHURCH), Phil Robertson read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Consequently, the Media Headlines declared: "New anti-gay remarks by 'Duck Dynasty' star emerge".

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/12081607-95/new-anti-gay-remarks-by-duck-dynasty-star-emerge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhnxDSOxfss

Monterrey
06-07-2014, 08:10 AM
The solution to Colorado's ruling is simple. It is to quit making cakes except by special order for those you want to.

Christians must understand that we are not living in our daddy's generation. We are going through a process in this country and must adapt to make it through.

I am not talking about compromise but about learning to adapt the way we do business to make it through the legal landmines that we are facing.

There are many ways to address this particular issue and one way is to discreetly shut the business down and continue to service the customer base on another level.

They made a mistake by making this a gay/straight issue. If they did not want to fix it then they should have come up with another reason that could not be sued over.

We are going to start seeing churches face the same issue, especially if they have been vocal on this issue in the past. If they have considerable assets then they will be targets for lawsuits. This is going to be big money for attorneys.

CC1
06-07-2014, 12:27 PM
The solution to Colorado's ruling is simple. It is to quit making cakes except by special order for those you want to.

Christians must understand that we are not living in our daddy's generation. We are going through a process in this country and must adapt to make it through.

I am not talking about compromise but about learning to adapt the way we do business to make it through the legal landmines that we are facing.

There are many ways to address this particular issue and one way is to discreetly shut the business down and continue to service the customer base on another level.

They made a mistake by making this a gay/straight issue. If they did not want to fix it then they should have come up with another reason that could not be sued over.

We are going to start seeing churches face the same issue, especially if they have been vocal on this issue in the past. If they have considerable assets then they will be targets for lawsuits. This is going to be big money for attorneys.

What makes you think making the cakes "by special order" would work? What is the difference? Based on the logic used in the case if they are making cakes for sale for anybody they have to make them for everybody.

Jermyn Davidson
06-07-2014, 07:23 PM
Deciding to not offer your services to someone simply because they practice a certain sin is hypocritical if you're not going to reject all sinners as potential customers.

We live in a pluralistic, even heathen society.

For the courts to rule any other way then they did would be to open the door to people being denied services for all sorts of "reasons of conscience".

Originalist
06-07-2014, 07:33 PM
Deciding to not offer your services to someone simply because they practice a certain sin is hypocritical if you're not going to reject all sinners as potential customers.

We live in a pluralistic, even heathen society.

For the courts to rule any other way then they did would be to open the door to people being denied services for all sorts of "reasons of conscience".

Uh, we are talking about events that openly celebrate certain sins. I don't know of there being people throwing celebrations for lying, stealing, etc. A gay wedding is a celebration of an ungodly lifestyle. Should a Christian caterer be forced to cater an orgy being put on by a heterosexual swingers club?

jfrog
06-07-2014, 08:01 PM
Can he just make cakes for certain select ministers weddings who just so happen to refuse to marry gays?

Jermyn Davidson
06-07-2014, 08:50 PM
Uh, we are talking about events that openly celebrate certain sins. I don't know of there being people throwing celebrations for lying, stealing, etc. A gay wedding is a celebration of an ungodly lifestyle. Should a Christian caterer be forced to cater an orgy being put on by a heterosexual swingers club?


Wouldn't a caterer have to be present at the event they cater?

The baker wouldn't have to be present at the orgy.

Like I said, in a pluralistic society, denying services for "reasons of conscience" is a slippery slope.

We do not live in a Christian theocratic society.

The Christian business owner needs to be able to provide their services for the Christian and the heathen alike. If serving heathen violates your conscience and serving is your business, you need to find another way to make money.

Abiding Now
06-07-2014, 08:56 PM
Just bake a fruity cake.

Jermyn Davidson
06-07-2014, 09:01 PM
Should the car mechanic not work on cars that gay people drive?
Should the car mechanic not work on cars that unsaved teenagers will drive?
Both will find a way to sin in or with their cars.

Should you have to figure out the moral convictions of every businessman to ensure that they will even want to serve you because you are a Christian?

Atheists bakers shouldn't be forced to bake cakes for Christian events-- but if you're in a town where all the bakers are atheists, wouldn't it be difficult for you?

In a pluralistic society, everyone has certain rights.

Sasha
06-08-2014, 08:44 AM
There are two types of people you don't want to tick off...people who are in charge of your medicine, and people in charge of your food.

jfrog
06-08-2014, 09:42 AM
Should the car mechanic not work on cars that gay people drive?
Should the car mechanic not work on cars that unsaved teenagers will drive?
Both will find a way to sin in or with their cars.

Should you have to figure out the moral convictions of every businessman to ensure that they will even want to serve you because you are a Christian?

Atheists bakers shouldn't be forced to bake cakes for Christian events-- but if you're in a town where all the bakers are atheists, wouldn't it be difficult for you?

In a pluralistic society, everyone has certain rights.

Do I as a consumer have the right to refuse business to an atheist or gay baker?

ILG
06-08-2014, 09:45 AM
This really makes me mad. As a business owner, he should have the right to serve anybody he wants, or not.

jfrog
06-08-2014, 09:51 AM
This really makes me mad. As a business owner, he should have the right to serve anybody he wants, or not.

Except on prohibited a basis. Disable people, blacks, Hispanics, women..... And the list goes on.

Sasha
06-08-2014, 09:57 AM
Except on prohibited a basis. Disable people, blacks, Hispanics, women..... And the list goes on.

I don't believe sexual orientation is a civil right.

jfrog
06-08-2014, 11:29 AM
I don't believe sexual orientation is a civil right.

What about religion?

Jermyn Davidson
06-08-2014, 03:17 PM
Do I as a consumer have the right to refuse business to an atheist or gay baker?

You sure do.

ILG
06-08-2014, 03:21 PM
Except on prohibited a basis. Disable people, blacks, Hispanics, women..... And the list goes on.

No. Anybody. If he wants to cut off his own business, who cares?

jfrog
06-08-2014, 03:23 PM
You sure do.

So if I can choose which business to go to then why have we made it wrong for a business to say it doesn't want me as a customer?

jfrog
06-08-2014, 03:27 PM
You sure do.

So if I can choose which business to go to on any basis then why have we made it wrong for a business to say it doesn't want me as a customer?

Originalist
06-08-2014, 04:17 PM
Wouldn't a caterer have to be present at the event they cater?

The baker wouldn't have to be present at the orgy.

Like I said, in a pluralistic society, denying services for "reasons of conscience" is a slippery slope.

We do not live in a Christian theocratic society.

The Christian business owner needs to be able to provide their services for the Christian and the heathen alike. If serving heathen violates your conscience and serving is your business, you need to find another way to make money.

When people are coming to you for service with the intent to bully you, that is the real slippery slope.

jfrog
06-08-2014, 07:38 PM
When people are coming to you for service with the intent to bully you, that is the real slippery slope.

I think if someone wants to make a rascist group They should be able to exclude members on race or anything else they desire. If someone only wants to bake cupcakes for gay people that's their right IMO. If someone doesn't want to mAke cakes for gays he shouldn't have to.

CC1
06-09-2014, 07:42 AM
I know someone who does wedding photography and videography who is facing the same issue. She has no desire to videotape two men or two woman exchanging vows, kissing, etc. We have discussed this and I see two ways of looking at it.

1. Since she performs a specialized "creative" service (is not a store open to the public) she ought to be able to choose which clients she accepts based on any number of things. For example in the initial interview if the bride or any of the family seems very demanding and the type person who will never be pleased she passes on an opportunity to do a wedding. Likewise if the situation makes her uncomfortable in other ways (like two guys or gals kissing) she should be able to decline.

2. The other view is to reluctantly do it. I call this the "take the money and run" option. You don't condone it but you do the job.

oneinkhorn
06-09-2014, 08:54 AM
"Phillips is an Evangelical Christian who holds to the belief that marriage is between a man and woman. When Phillips bakes a wedding cake, he interprets it as participating in the wedding celebration, and he explained that, therefore, he does not make cakes for gay marriages."

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/12/Christian-Baker-Willing-to-Go-to-Jail-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake

Monterrey
06-09-2014, 12:50 PM
I know someone who does wedding photography and videography who is facing the same issue. She has no desire to videotape two men or two woman exchanging vows, kissing, etc. We have discussed this and I see two ways of looking at it.

1. Since she performs a specialized "creative" service (is not a store open to the public) she ought to be able to choose which clients she accepts based on any number of things. For example in the initial interview if the bride or any of the family seems very demanding and the type person who will never be pleased she passes on an opportunity to do a wedding. Likewise if the situation makes her uncomfortable in other ways (like two guys or gals kissing) she should be able to decline.

2. The other view is to reluctantly do it. I call this the "take the money and run" option. You don't condone it but you do the job.

Alls she has to do is price herself out of the job. Say, 10,000 for the job and they will probably find another photographer.

The cake man could have done the same and not brought up anything about gay marriage.

More than one way to skin a cat.

jfrog
06-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Alls she has to do is price herself out of the job. Say, 10,000 for the job and they will probably find another photographer.

The cake man could have done the same and not brought up anything about gay marriage.

More than one way to skin a cat.

That can also be sued for

Monterrey
06-09-2014, 12:52 PM
Some people are really unwise in how they attack a problem.

Many ways to turn down a job. Busy that day, busy that week, price too high, do a bad job, they did not have to bring up gayness.

Monterrey
06-09-2014, 12:55 PM
That can also be sued for

Don't think so. You can only be sued for discrimination, not for extravagant pricing.

The ammunition he gave was when he mentioned that he was not doing the job because of how he felt on gay marriage. Don't mention those words and you will not get sued.

Jesus commanded us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

n david
06-09-2014, 01:06 PM
That can also be sued for
Not true.

n david
06-09-2014, 01:07 PM
Alls she has to do is price herself out of the job. Say, 10,000 for the job and they will probably find another photographer.

The cake man could have done the same and not brought up anything about gay marriage.

More than one way to skin a cat.
Great point, and there hopefully will be others who take this route in the future, instead of declaring their beliefs against gays.

jfrog
06-09-2014, 01:12 PM
Don't think so. You can only be sued for discrimination, not for extravagant pricing.

The ammunition he gave was when he mentioned that he was not doing the job because of how he felt on gay marriage. Don't mention those words and you will not get sued.

Jesus commanded us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

It is discrimination to charge only gay people 10000 dollars

jfrog
06-09-2014, 01:17 PM
Some people are really unwise in how they attack a problem.

Many ways to turn down a job. Busy that day, busy that week, price too high, do a bad job, they did not have to bring up gayness.

Now some of those will work. Of course if he agrees to the job before the gayness is discovered it gets a bit harder to get out of.

houston
06-09-2014, 05:51 PM
They shoulda went with a gay baker. He'd make a FABULOUS cake!

ILG
06-09-2014, 06:23 PM
I know someone who does wedding photography and videography who is facing the same issue. She has no desire to videotape two men or two woman exchanging vows, kissing, etc. We have discussed this and I see two ways of looking at it.

1. Since she performs a specialized "creative" service (is not a store open to the public) she ought to be able to choose which clients she accepts based on any number of things. For example in the initial interview if the bride or any of the family seems very demanding and the type person who will never be pleased she passes on an opportunity to do a wedding. Likewise if the situation makes her uncomfortable in other ways (like two guys or gals kissing) she should be able to decline.

2. The other view is to reluctantly do it. I call this the "take the money and run" option. You don't condone it but you do the job.

I think either option is valid, but I don't think she should be FORCED by the government to do it if she is uncomfortable.

ILG
06-09-2014, 06:25 PM
Great point, and there hopefully will be others who take this route in the future, instead of declaring their beliefs against gays.

But shouldn't one be allowed their beliefs and freedom to say so?

ILG
06-09-2014, 06:25 PM
They shoulda went with a gay baker. He'd make a FABULOUS cake!

:thumbsup

n david
06-09-2014, 09:00 PM
But shouldn't one be allowed their beliefs and freedom to say so?
In a perfect world, where free speech was allowed, absolutely.

Unfortunately, we no longer live in that kind of a society.

Disciple4life
06-09-2014, 09:29 PM
I just hope the cakes are family friendly! :heeheehee

Aquila
06-10-2014, 06:29 AM
House churches, unlicensed clergy, non-incorporated entities, these will be the only way we might be able to keep ever more and more intrusive government out of our churches.

Aquila
06-10-2014, 06:46 AM
Call me naïve. But I really don't understand some things. I mean, I can understand someone not agreeing with gay marriage. However, as a business owner who is incorporated to serve the general public, everyone who walks through your door is a sinner. If an unmarried woman wanted him to bake a cake for a baby shower... would a Christian business owner decline? What if in the middle of conversation one discovers a potential customer is a Satanist who wants a Gothic looking cake? Or what if a family wants a Halloween cake? What if a Mormon group wants a cake for a Mormon event? What if a woman who has been married 4 times is having her fifth wedding, and she didn't have grounds to divorce her first husband and this will be an adulterous marriage in God's eyes?

If one is in business to serve the general public with a service... they are already serving all kinds of sinners every day. Why make a big issue about it? It's not personal. It's business. And if you are a distinctly Christian business, certainly brochures, fliers, and business cards will state such. You might be able to show grace and humility as a witness. For example, someone at the flaky gay wedding might notice the cross and Bible verse on your business card. They inquire as to if you are a Christian business and you explain that you are. They might ask how you as a Christian business feels catering to a gay wedding. You're answer could be something as simple as, "We are indeed a Christian business. We're here to serve, not condemn."

aegsm76
06-10-2014, 07:50 AM
My issue is that we are taking the ability of a business owner to deny service away. So, if you are a baker and someone wants a cake that says "Satan is God", then you have to make it?
So, if you are a caterer and you are asked to cater for a "swingers" private party, you have to do it?
If you run a private security service and you are asked to provide security for a nudist get-together, you have to?
I could go on and on with the examples, but, basically you should get the idea.

jfrog
06-10-2014, 08:07 AM
My issue is that we are taking the ability of a business owner to deny service away. So, if you are a baker and someone wants a cake that says "Satan is God", then you have to make it?
So, if you are a caterer and you are asked to cater for a "swingers" private party, you have to do it?
If you run a private security service and you are asked to provide security for a nudist get-together, you have to?
I could go on and on with the examples, but, basically you should get the idea.

There is a big difference in baking a cake and actually goin to an event you don't want to.

Jermyn Davidson
06-10-2014, 09:46 AM
I think if someone wants to make a rascist group They should be able to exclude members on race or anything else they desire. If someone only wants to bake cupcakes for gay people that's their right IMO. If someone doesn't want to mAke cakes for gays he shouldn't have to.

Why do you think like this?

Have you followed this thought process all the way out?

This isn't the way to unite a country or to keep a country united.

Monterrey
06-10-2014, 11:20 AM
Why do you think like this?

Have you followed this thought process all the way out?

This isn't the way to unite a country or to keep a country united.

And as we all know, the current administration is definitely in the business of uniting the country.......

jfrog
06-10-2014, 12:44 PM
Why do you think like this?

Have you followed this thought process all the way out?

This isn't the way to unite a country or to keep a country united.

Yep. It's better than the alternative. I do know the current laws have helped blacks and women. But I also feel they have opened up the door to much I disagree with.

aegsm76
06-10-2014, 12:45 PM
There is a big difference in baking a cake and actually goin to an event you don't want to.

Not if your business is centered around events.

n david
06-10-2014, 01:09 PM
And as we all know, the current administration is definitely in the business of uniting the country.......
:lol

ILG
06-10-2014, 02:46 PM
Call me naïve. But I really don't understand some things. I mean, I can understand someone not agreeing with gay marriage. However, as a business owner who is incorporated to serve the general public, everyone who walks through your door is a sinner. If an unmarried woman wanted him to bake a cake for a baby shower... would a Christian business owner decline? What if in the middle of conversation one discovers a potential customer is a Satanist who wants a Gothic looking cake? Or what if a family wants a Halloween cake? What if a Mormon group wants a cake for a Mormon event? What if a woman who has been married 4 times is having her fifth wedding, and she didn't have grounds to divorce her first husband and this will be an adulterous marriage in God's eyes?

If one is in business to serve the general public with a service... they are already serving all kinds of sinners every day. Why make a big issue about it? It's not personal. It's business. And if you are a distinctly Christian business, certainly brochures, fliers, and business cards will state such. You might be able to show grace and humility as a witness. For example, someone at the flaky gay wedding might notice the cross and Bible verse on your business card. They inquire as to if you are a Christian business and you explain that you are. They might ask how you as a Christian business feels catering to a gay wedding. You're answer could be something as simple as, "We are indeed a Christian business. We're here to serve, not condemn."

I agree with you. But I still think the guy has the right to bake cakes for whomever he wants.

AR Pastor
06-10-2014, 07:12 PM
Just bake a fruity cake.

LOL

AR Pastor
06-10-2014, 07:14 PM
I would close down my business before I would make a cake for these perverts.

Pressing-On
06-10-2014, 07:20 PM
I would close down my business before I would make a cake for these perverts.

I don't think calling someone a pervert is going to bring them deliverance. We can stand on the Word of God with love and power, but we shouldn't portray the Gospel as hate. It is mercy, grace, love and restoration.

AR Pastor
06-10-2014, 08:07 PM
I don't think calling someone a pervert is going to bring them deliverance. We can stand on the Word of God with love and power, but we shouldn't portray the Gospel as hate. It is mercy, grace, love and restoration.

I'm not trying to be hateful just calling it what it is. It is an abomination and those that participate in it are perverts just like those who molest children or those who go with animals. It is not hate to call sin what it is.

ILG
06-11-2014, 07:41 AM
I'm not trying to be hateful just calling it what it is. It is an abomination and those that participate in it are perverts just like those who molest children or those who go with animals. It is not hate to call sin what it is.

That's like saying people who are overweight are fat pigs from the pulpit. Is that okay?

Aquila
06-11-2014, 08:16 AM
My issue is that we are taking the ability of a business owner to deny service away. So, if you are a baker and someone wants a cake that says "Satan is God", then you have to make it?
So, if you are a caterer and you are asked to cater for a "swingers" private party, you have to do it?
If you run a private security service and you are asked to provide security for a nudist get-together, you have to?
I could go on and on with the examples, but, basically you should get the idea.

I see where you're coming from. However, being incorporated with the government one's business is an equal opportunity business and can't discriminate by law with regards to race, gender, sexual orientation, political views, etc.

Aquila
06-11-2014, 08:18 AM
I agree with you. But I still think the guy has the right to bake cakes for whomever he wants.

I see your point. However, by incorporating they can't discriminate against individuals per the law they committed to by incorporating. In a way... he's trapped. He has to bake a cake for them or he's breaking the law.

Aquila
06-11-2014, 08:19 AM
Just bake a fruity cake.

lol

Aquila
06-11-2014, 08:22 AM
I'd say that if a Christian opens a business and is incorporated, it's a better witness to obey the laws of incorporation that prevent businesses from discriminating against people.

As a soldier who is Christian, you find yourself doing things you often don't agree with. But that's part of the oath you took when you volunteered. I see the same with business. When one opens a business and incorporates, they are bound by certain laws.

Aquila
06-11-2014, 08:26 AM
There was a couple in the church I used to attend in Dayton. The husband's mother came down with cancer and they had to take care of her and help her run her business until she could get all her affairs in order. What was her business? An adult entertainment store. Yes, they worked in the store for several months before she passed away. She left store to them. Then they closed it down and liquidated it.

Sometimes life puts you in strange situations.

shazeep
06-11-2014, 02:02 PM
well, i am swayed here. ty, Aquila. Any laws against burning the cake? :D

Pressing-On
06-11-2014, 02:09 PM
well, i am swayed here. ty, Aquila. Any laws against burning the cake? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpNb-nLSM0

:heeheehee

shazeep
06-11-2014, 06:07 PM
:lol

aegsm76
06-12-2014, 07:21 PM
I see where you're coming from. However, being incorporated with the government one's business is an equal opportunity business and can't discriminate by law with regards to race, gender, sexual orientation, political views, etc.

Aquila - not quite right. You are perfectly within your rights to discriminate, so long as it is not a "protected class" that you are discriminating against. For example, a restaurant can post a sign that they would not serve anyone wearing blue jeans. That would be acceptable. They could not post a sign saying they would refuse service to anyone with dreadlocks, because that could be a perceived racial discrimination.
Many states and some municipalities now do have laws regarding discrimination against sexual orientation. However, this is not a federally protected class.
When it becomes one, heaven help us.

Sasha
06-14-2014, 04:06 PM
What about religion?

Depends. Some have a choice, others do not.

Aquila
06-14-2014, 11:07 PM
I have to be honest, if the best bakery in town refused to sell me a wedding cake because they wanted to sell to gay only, I might consider suing. I'd probably just get over it though.

KeptByTheWord
06-14-2014, 11:18 PM
I have to be honest, if the best bakery in town refused to sell me a wedding cake because they wanted to sell to gay only, I might consider suing. I'd probably just get over it though.

Right, it is a one-way street with them. Should a baker decide to bake gay-only cakes, what happens then? Should a gay photographer only photograph gay weddings, will the heterosexual couples rise up in holy righteous anger, demanding that the gay photographer photograph their wedding? See the one-way street pattern here....

jfrog
06-15-2014, 09:41 AM
Right, it is a one-way street with them. Should a baker decide to bake gay-only cakes, what happens then? Should a gay photographer only photograph gay weddings, will the heterosexual couples rise up in holy righteous anger, demanding that the gay photographer photograph their wedding? See the one-way street pattern here....

We don't care... If gays wanna do things only for gays we don't care lol.

Aquila
06-16-2014, 07:27 AM
I don't know. You see... I believe that a business should be in the market to do business... not deny services to people based on personal feelings about something. I mean... business is business. It's nothing personal.

I'm sure he's backed cakes for kids born out of wedlock, couples who are just living together, people in adulterous marriages, gay couples celebrating a birthday, porn addicts, drug addicts, people who are into swinging, etc.

Do Christian business owners have to have customers apply for services to ensure that they aren't so sinful that they might get disqualified from the service provided by the business?

Aquila
06-16-2014, 07:30 AM
well, i am swayed here. ty, Aquila. Any laws against burning the cake? :D

lol

jfrog
06-16-2014, 07:37 AM
I don't know. You see... I believe that a business should be in the market to do business... not deny services to people based on personal feelings about something. I mean... business is business. It's nothing personal.

I'm sure he's backed cakes for kids born out of wedlock, couples who are just living together, people in adulterous marriages, gay couples celebrating a birthday, porn addicts, drug addicts, people who are into swinging, etc.

Do Christian business owners have to have customers apply for services to ensure that they aren't so sinful that they might get disqualified from the service provided by the business?

Don't get me wrong i think the guy is a hypocrite. But I think he should be able to be one. There was a time stores all closed on Sundays... Do you think being closed Sunday was a business decision?

Aquila
06-17-2014, 06:35 AM
Don't get me wrong i think the guy is a hypocrite. But I think he should be able to be one. There was a time stores all closed on Sundays... Do you think being closed Sunday was a business decision?

Here's what's troubling. Let's say a person moves to a smaller town to find work. They are working for a local paper and appear to be doing quite well. However, it gets out that they are gay. Suddenly, the gas station attendance refuses to pump their gas. When he steps inside to pay, the owner says, "We don't need business from your kind." So he leaves bewildered. Then he goes to a bakery where he had ordered a cake for his little boy (from a prior marriage) and they don't have it ready. The owner informs him, "We don't back cakes for your kind." He has some storm damage on his roof and calls a local contractor. Upon seeing the man's home, and the man's companion, he refuses to even think about making the repairs.

At what point do we shake this town up and say, "Look... his private life is none of your business. Unless you're a doctor, a counselor, a pastor, or part of his family, treat him like everyone else."?

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 08:28 AM
Wouldn't a caterer have to be present at the event they cater?

The baker wouldn't have to be present at the orgy.

Like I said, in a pluralistic society, denying services for "reasons of conscience" is a slippery slope.

We do not live in a Christian theocratic society.

The Christian business owner needs to be able to provide their services for the Christian and the heathen alike. If serving heathen violates your conscience and serving is your business, you need to find another way to make money.


This is my view. Are you in it to make a living or make some religious stand?

jfrog
06-17-2014, 12:09 PM
Here's what's troubling. Let's say a person moves to a smaller town to find work. They are working for a local paper and appear to be doing quite well. However, it gets out that they are gay. Suddenly, the gas station attendance refuses to pump their gas. When he steps inside to pay, the owner says, "We don't need business from your kind." So he leaves bewildered. Then he goes to a bakery where he had ordered a cake for his little boy (from a prior marriage) and they don't have it ready. The owner informs him, "We don't back cakes for your kind." He has some storm damage on his roof and calls a local contractor. Upon seeing the man's home, and the man's companion, he refuses to even think about making the repairs.

At what point do we shake this town up and say, "Look... his private life is none of your business. Unless you're a doctor, a counselor, a pastor, or part of his family, treat him like everyone else."?

I bet that man wouldn't be openly gay for long after that.

jfrog
06-17-2014, 12:09 PM
This is my view. Are you in it to make a living or make some religious stand?

Can't one do both?

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 12:25 PM
Can't one do both?

Ok lets say you can. Why just homosexuality? What about all the sins that straight people commit? If a couple had a kid before getting married, are you making a cake for them? What if someone takes the lords name in vain while they are in your bakery? Do you make a cake for them? See how stupid and ridiculous this all is?

jfrog
06-17-2014, 12:49 PM
Ok lets say you can. Why just homosexuality? What about all the sins that straight people commit? If a couple had a kid before getting married, are you making a cake for them? What if someone takes the lords name in vain while they are in your bakery? Do you make a cake for them? See how stupid and ridiculous this all is?

Your point is that the man is a hypocrite? So what if he's a hypocrite?

Aquila
06-17-2014, 12:55 PM
Your point is that the man is a hypocrite? So what if he's a hypocrite?

What if every business in town decided not to serve a given group of people?

jfrog
06-17-2014, 01:13 PM
What if every business in town decided not to serve a given group of people?

Then I'd say the gay guy wouldn't let it slip that he was gay.

aegsm76
06-17-2014, 01:58 PM
So, if a known pedophile wants to go to Chuck E Cheese's, the management has no right to deny him service?
Whatever happened to "we have the right to refuse service to anyone"....

jfrog
06-17-2014, 02:00 PM
So, if a known pedophile wants to go to Chuck E Cheese's, the management has no right to deny him service?
Whatever happened to "we have the right to refuse service to anyone"....

Well, the pedophile may be out to harm people, the gay guy, not so much. Makes that a kinda apples and oranges comparison... just sayin

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 02:11 PM
So, if a known pedophile wants to go to Chuck E Cheese's, the management has no right to deny him service?
Whatever happened to "we have the right to refuse service to anyone"....

Being gay isnt the same as pedophilia. Stop with that stupid comparison. It makes you look stupid.

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 02:12 PM
Your point is that the man is a hypocrite? So what if he's a hypocrite?

No. My point is, why just stop at the homosexual sin? Thats my point.

jfrog
06-17-2014, 02:27 PM
No. My point is, why just stop at the homosexual sin? Thats my point.

UMMMM... Why stop at homosexual sin? Because he is a hypocrite he stops at homosexual sin. I'd actually prefer him to go further and not bake cakes for all kinds of sinners... but he won't do that so he is a hypocrite. I think he has a right to be a hypocrite though. You are right for calling him out on that, but it is his right.

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 02:30 PM
UMMMM... Why stop at homosexual sin? Because he is a hypocrite he stops at homosexual sin.

Ok. I see what you are saying. You would think to some homo sin is the only sin in the bible.

jfrog
06-17-2014, 02:50 PM
Ok. I see what you are saying. You would think to some homo sin is the only sin in the bible.

LOL. This is true. And you would think it is worse than murder and rape and everything else.

Aquila
06-17-2014, 02:59 PM
Then I'd say the gay guy wouldn't let it slip that he was gay.

And what if it happened to happen to Christians? Every business turning against Christians?

Aquila
06-17-2014, 02:59 PM
So, if a known pedophile wants to go to Chuck E Cheese's, the management has no right to deny him service?
Whatever happened to "we have the right to refuse service to anyone"....

That's a criminal act. And the individual would have a criminal conviction.

jfrog
06-17-2014, 03:11 PM
And what if it happened to happen to Christians? Every business turning against Christians?

Then I'd say they the brave ones would say they were christians in defiance and become martyrs to further the christian message and to change society.

aegsm76
06-17-2014, 04:02 PM
In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

Fionn mac Cumh
06-17-2014, 04:17 PM
In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

jfrog
06-17-2014, 06:19 PM
So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

Yes?

ILG
06-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

Agreed.

aegsm76
06-18-2014, 05:44 AM
So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

The America I used to live in respected the individual's right to their own religious beliefs. Now, the wave of tolerance has result in intolerance. However, the targeting of businesses is totally focused on Christianity. I would really like to see the homosexual community target the Muslim religion and see how that plays out.

Aquila
06-18-2014, 06:26 AM
In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

I think there is a middle ground. If a person is threatening, harassing, belligerent, or not complying with OSHA standards... you see there are reasons to deny services. But to deny services over someone being gay, straight, celibate, hermaphrodite, etc. is a bit creepy to me. Am I going to have to fill out an application explaining my own sexual history and interests? It's invasive, discriminatory, insulting, and... a I'm not sure what's more perverted... a business that is hung up on finding out our bedroom behaviors to determine our value as customers... or a gay couple. I guess the one sure way to deal with it is to vote with your money, boycott, and spread the word that a business is just not cool with serving the general public.

Aquila
06-18-2014, 06:30 AM
A Christian business should be a witness... Jesus came to serve and die for a lost humanity. Certainly as a carpenter He made things for Roman citizens. I remember seeing a painting wherein Jesus is depicted as a carpenter... making crosses.

I don't believe the proper Christian attitude should be "death to sinners". Nor, "they are too filthy to love or serve". A genuine Christian, in my opinion, looks past the faults and sins of individuals and loves them and serves them. They live and demonstrate an unconditional love. The people who made the greatest impact on me early in my life were those who loved me... especially when I was undeserving (which was a lot). Joe Public should be able to look at a Christian business and know they will not only treat him with dignity and respect... but that they will also provide the best service or product bar none.

Let's take up our crosses. We don't take up crosses to bash people with them. We take up our crosses to die in service to our Lord and others.

I don't believe there's any place in Heaven for the squeamish or cowardly.

Aquila
06-18-2014, 06:34 AM
A quote from Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." ~ Thomas Paine

Frankly, we like to accuse liberals and politicians of being or doing things that are un-American. Frankly, we're all being un-American if we don't value individual liberty for ourselves... AND OTHERS. If we deny other's their personal liberties... it will only create a social dynamic that will backfire and set precedent to deny us our personal liberties. Therefore, such an approach is a danger to the ideals and values of the Constitution.

If you can't respect individual liberties... pack your bags and move to Russia, because you're a traitor to everything this nation stands for.

aegsm76
06-18-2014, 01:53 PM
I think there is a middle ground. If a person is threatening, harassing, belligerent, or not complying with OSHA standards... you see there are reasons to deny services. But to deny services over someone being gay, straight, celibate, hermaphrodite, etc. is a bit creepy to me. Am I going to have to fill out an application explaining my own sexual history and interests? It's invasive, discriminatory, insulting, and... a I'm not sure what's more perverted... a business that is hung up on finding out our bedroom behaviors to determine our value as customers... or a gay couple. I guess the one sure way to deal with it is to vote with your money, boycott, and spread the word that a business is just not cool with serving the general public.

I believe in the middle ground. I have hired, promoted and fired plenty of homosexuals. I have judged them solely on the work and not on their private life. However, they also knew where I stood and I have had plenty of conversations with them regarding our beliefs. There was mutual respect there, without me letting down my beliefs.
But, I have seen the world slip from tolerance, to acceptance and now to join us. If you do not agree with this lifestyle, you now have a target on your back with the aggressive homosexual lobby.

aegsm76
06-18-2014, 01:54 PM
A Christian business should be a witness... Jesus came to serve and die for a lost humanity. Certainly as a carpenter He made things for Roman citizens. I remember seeing a painting wherein Jesus is depicted as a carpenter... making crosses.

I don't believe the proper Christian attitude should be "death to sinners". Nor, "they are too filthy to love or serve". A genuine Christian, in my opinion, looks past the faults and sins of individuals and loves them and serves them. They live and demonstrate an unconditional love. The people who made the greatest impact on me early in my life were those who loved me... especially when I was undeserving (which was a lot). Joe Public should be able to look at a Christian business and know they will not only treat him with dignity and respect... but that they will also provide the best service or product bar none.

Let's take up our crosses. We don't take up crosses to bash people with them. We take up our crosses to die in service to our Lord and others.

I don't believe there's any place in Heaven for the squeamish or cowardly.

Sometimes loving someone means telling them things that they do not want to hear.

aegsm76
06-18-2014, 01:59 PM
A quote from Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." ~ Thomas Paine

Frankly, we like to accuse liberals and politicians of being or doing things that are un-American. Frankly, we're all being un-American if we don't value individual liberty for ourselves... AND OTHERS. If we deny other's their personal liberties... it will only create a social dynamic that will backfire and set precedent to deny us our personal liberties. Therefore, such an approach is a danger to the ideals and values of the Constitution.

If you can't respect individual liberties... pack your bags and move to Russia, because you're a traitor to everything this nation stands for.

So, where is the individual liberty for the baker who was told to bake the cake or be fined?
Where will the individual liberty be for the pastor who is forced to marry a homosexual couple?
Where will the individual liberty be for the company who is forced to provide insurance that includes abortion services?
Where will the individual liberty be for the university that is forced to provide insurance that includes contraceptive services?

We have long valued individual liberty in this nation. So much so that a pharmacist who is against abortion does not have to provide drugs that enable abortion.
Now the tide has turned from individual liberty to individual liberty that the government agrees with.
If the government disagrees with your individual liberty, they will work to take it away.

Aquila
06-18-2014, 02:09 PM
I believe in the middle ground. I have hired, promoted and fired plenty of homosexuals. I have judged them solely on the work and not on their private life. However, they also knew where I stood and I have had plenty of conversations with them regarding our beliefs. There was mutual respect there, without me letting down my beliefs.
But, I have seen the world slip from tolerance, to acceptance and now to join us. If you do not agree with this lifestyle, you now have a target on your back with the aggressive homosexual lobby.

You're right. There is a middle ground.

Aquila
06-18-2014, 02:25 PM
Sometimes loving someone means telling them things that they do not want to hear.

Yes... I know that.

However, I do think there is a time and place. If you're running a business, it's a terrible witness to use it to push your religion on others. A Christian business should be known for providing the best product, the best customer service, the best business ethic, and the highest standards of service... to all. It's a business... not a "church".

Some are too dumb to understand this. And that's telling some folks something they don't want to hear.

I used to frequent a Christian Book Store in Beavercreek, Ohio. The owner was a hyper-dispensationalist Baptist. He and his wife were very friendly, they had great titles, they could order nearly anything for me, and I was very pleased with my experience. However, he never ceased to give me a flier inviting me to his church. The fliers were posted, I saw them, and if I were interested, I would have seen the fliers and chosen to visit. However, I wasn't interested. At one point he asked me why I wasn't willing to at least visit. I told him that I was an Apostolic Pentecostal, and had been for over 10 years (at the time). And with a snide voice he said, "Hmmm Apostolic Pentecostal... isn't that the legalistic heresy taught by the UPCI and several other cults?" I was floored. There were customers in the store when he said it. I was so very uncomfortable. I said, "Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I guess." He said, "It's not an opinion, it's truth. You need to leave that mess." I said, "I'll do what the Lord bid me to do." And I left. I was so taken aback. I almost felt sick. I went into the store once more just to see if maybe he had been having a bad day during my prior visit and I wanted to tell him that I had no hard feelings and that I really enjoyed shopping in his store. As soon as I walked in he cornered me and started preaching about how baptism doesn't save, how speaking in tongues was of the devil, and that if I wanted to "really get saved" I needed to repent of my "heretical mess". I was shaking. Then I said, "Look Terry, I don't want to offend anyone. I'm not sure why you're acting like this." He said, "The LORD rebuke you! We don't need your kind here in this store, and you can excuse yourself right now, or I'm calling the police. You Apostolics are all alike! Get out." So... I left. He made some remark about my wife about not being welcome either, calling her a "little witch". And yes, there were people in the store at that time too.

I was so angry, I had half a mind to go into his store and punch him in the nose. But I didn't. That was over 9 years ago. I didn't want to sue or anything. But I was hurt. His store was to serve the community with Christian titles. Not to cast judgments on customers. Not to proselytize. And not to harass those believers who didn't agree with him. I made sure that I told everyone about how I was treated there. He blurred the lines. He's a store providing a service and product for the community. Not a church.