Islamic Prayers at the Vatican

[Dordrecht]

http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/06/08/first-time-history-islamic-prayers-be-held-vatican

For the first time in history, Islamic prayers and readings from the Quran will be heard at the Vatican on Sunday, in a move by Pope Francis to usher in peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

[shazeep]

hmm.

[oneinkhorn]

Future Berlin Building to House 3 Religions Under One Roof

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/welcome-to-berlins-house-of-one--a-church-synagogue-and-mosque-9507002.html

BERLIN, June 8 ― Christians, Muslims and Jews, all praying under the same roof ― that’s the groundbreaking project of a pastor, a rabbi and an imam in Berlin.

Not a church, nor a synagogue, or a mosque as such, but a bit of all three, the centre known currently as a “House of Prayer and Learning” will be unlike any other religious venue in the world, its initiators say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9506849.ece/alternates/w620/p32houseGETTY.jpg


A model of the future building.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9506843.ece/alternates/w460/p32modelEPA.jpg

[oneinkhorn]

Plans Underway Build a "Tri-Faith" Center in Nebraska

http://trifaith.org/?page_id=2

The Tri-Faith Initiative, a partnership of the three Abrahamic faith groups — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, plans to build a Tri-Faith Center to co-locate with Temple Israel, a new church for the Episcopal Diocese of Nebraska and a mosque for the American Institute of Islamic Studies and Culture. These four buildings will form a multi-faith neighborhood of collaboration.

http://trifaith.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/TriFaith_fade.jpg

[shazeep]

if this succeeds, you will know that the world approves; if it is attacked, you will know that God does. imo

[Lafon]

Does the One True God listen to, and take heed, to the prayers of false prophets who pray to a non-existent god? Yes, He hears, for nothing is hidden from Him, but since their prayers are NOT directed to Him, then I am unwilling to say that He takes heed or responds in any manner whatsoever!

[oneinkhorn]

Asteroid named "Beast" to fly by Earth Sunday when Pope Allows Quran Reading in Vatican

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/06/07/giant-asteroid-flies-by-earth/10161829/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iihexLgWZE8

http://yottafire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The-Beast.jpg

[Dordrecht]

Does the One True God listen to, and take heed, to the prayers of false prophets who pray to a non-existent god? Yes, He hears, for nothing is hidden from Him, but since their prayers are NOT directed to Him, then I am unwilling to say that He takes heed or responds in any manner whatsoever!

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[shazeep]

i think this denies that Ishmael was blessed of God, #1, and also that regardless of the 'official' position of the religion here, God looks at the hearts of the adherents--which is why some Apo/Pents may even make it! :lol it is a model, guys. God has a bunch of Names, and one of them is Allah. The Qur'an plainly bows the knee to Christ. Just because it serves the PTB to divide you by presenting murderous heretics who scream "Allah" as "Muslims," in your satan-infected "news," does not mean you have to buy it. etc. Arg already.

[shazeep]

and Lafon, you are judging here, along with Dordt? I am surprised. "Judge yourself."

[Aquila]

If late night ululation disturbs your canticles... you might be a compromiser. lol

[shazeep]

:lol

[Revelationist]

Does the One True God listen to, and take heed, to the prayers of false prophets who pray to a non-existent god? Yes, He hears, for nothing is hidden from Him, but since their prayers are NOT directed to Him, then I am unwilling to say that He takes heed or responds in any manner whatsoever!

They worship Jehovah God of the Old Testament like the Jews do..

[Revelationist]

They also use the first five books of the Torah like the Jews.

[Revelationist]

That being saiid, many churches today have a Rabi speak in their church . Is there a difference?

[Reader]

They worship Jehovah God of the Old Testament like the Jews do..

David Bernard would be in agreement.

Islam is a monotheistic religion founded by Mohammed in 7th century Arabia. Moslems worship the God of the Bible, but believe that Mohammed's book, the Koran, is God's Word for today. - Practical Holiness, A Second Look by Bernard

[Aquila]

Islam... an Arabic Mormonism?

[shazeep]

ha, so funny that you say that, as i have never met a Mormon that i didn't like, either--although there surely are some. i post because these seem to be the only two that i continue to be drawn to even after a 'religious' discussion, even though i might disagree with points of each of them. no 'righteous indignation,' etc.

[Revelationist]

Islam... an Arabic Mormonism?

Hehe... That's the thought I had...

[Dordrecht]

and Lafon, you are judging here, along with Dordt? I am surprised. "Judge yourself."

Just saying: The pope supports the koran.

[Revelationist]

Just saying: The pope supports the koran.

The pope is known to be a peace maker...

[shazeep]

Just saying: The pope supports the koran.hmm well i like the pope about as much as i'm pretty sure you like the Qur'an...but i wonder how much false flag is embedded here? the RCC is looking pretty dismal at the moment, let's have the pope 'support' the Qur'an? just to denigrate It? Don't know.

[Luke]

allah is not the name of the God of the Bible (which also happens to be my God)? allah was the name of one of three hundred and sixty idol gods worshipped in the Kaa'ba. To see that the God of the Bible and allah are not the same all one must do is ask three simple questions:

1. Was Jesus the Son of God?

2. Did Jesus die on the cross?

3. Was Isaac the Promised son to Abraham and Sarah?

Simpply compare their yes and no answers to the Bible and you will have your answer.

There is a beign who goes by the name allah that claims to be a god and is worshipped as a god but according to the Apostle Paul this bieng is a demon that will one day bow before Jesus and declare Him to be Lord!

[Norman]

Some people say "do not judge," but Jesus also said "Beware of false prophets." How can we beware of them if we can't identify them? There are different ways of judging. In another place Jesus said we should judge with a righteous judgment.

[shazeep]

"...and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears"
You will know them by their fruit

[Revelationist]

allah is not the name of the God of the Bible (which also happens to be my God)? allah was the name of one of three hundred and sixty idol gods worshipped in the Kaa'ba. To see that the God of the Bible and allah are not the same all one must do is ask three simple questions:

1. Was Jesus the Son of God?

2. Did Jesus die on the cross?

3. Was Isaac the Promised son to Abraham and Sarah?

Simpply compare their yes and no answers to the Bible and you will have your answer.

There is a beign who goes by the name allah that claims to be a god and is worshipped as a god but according to the Apostle Paul this bieng is a demon that will one day bow before Jesus and declare Him to be Lord!


Allah (English pronunciation: /ˈælə/ or /ˈɑːlə/; Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤˈlˤɑːh] ( )) is the Arabic word for God (al ilāh, iliterally "the God"). The word has cognates in other Semitic languages, including Alah in Aramaic, ʾĒl in Canaanite and Elohim in Hebrew.

[jfrog]

Some people say "do not judge," but Jesus also said "Beware of false prophets." How can we beware of them if we can't identify them? There are different ways of judging. In another place Jesus said we should judge with a righteous judgment.

:thumbsup You my friend are onto something profound. Most people use the phrase "do not judge" to mean "be nice".

[shazeep]

i did a study on Judgement, and i think the forbidden kind will always come with some accompanying behavior; mocking, belittling, etc. We of course must make personal judgements, that apply to ourselves.

[Dordrecht]

Some people say "do not judge," but Jesus also said "Beware of false prophets." How can we beware of them if we can't identify them? There are different ways of judging. In another place Jesus said we should judge with a righteous judgment.

:thumbsup

[Dordrecht]

i did a study on Judgement, and i think the forbidden kind will always come with some accompanying behavior; mocking, belittling, etc. We of course must make personal judgements, that apply to ourselves.

i also did a study where it said "You shall know them by their fruits"

It should tell you something when so called leaders start to worship false religions.

About JUDGING:

Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago:

Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.

Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.

Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could tempt a dozen heathens.

Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are imple..menting a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.

Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. I see Christians dedicated to warning others about hell. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.

Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.

Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.

Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effec..tive demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.

Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?

Screwtape: “Judge not!”

Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish, and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there
doing. And I might add, it’s causing me grief.

Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. “Judge not… you hypocrite,” as He said later in the same paragraph.

Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use “Judge not” to neutralize the whole Church?

Screwtape: We’re going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we’re going to make them think none of them should judge, ever.

Wormwood: That’s bril..liant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.

Screwtape: It is even more brilliant than you realize. If we can seduce Christians into fol..lowing the instructions for hypo..crites, we will turn them into hypocrites. It’s like government workers who follow foolish rules so precisely they are transformed from human beings into bureau..crats; drones who mindlessly dis..pense red tape regardless of the misfortune they cause. The slave who willingly obeys his master, begins to conform to the master. If believers willingly submit to an instruction for hypocrites, they will conform to hypocrisy. Eventually, with a little evil luck, we might stop them from con..fronting unbelievers altogether because, as you know Worm..wood, to confront requires judg..ing. And if they don’t judge un..believers, they are hypocrites, professing the Gospel but deny..ing its power.

Wormwood: Ha, ha. I’m excited. When do we start?

Screwtape: Everything is underway already. Just do your part.

Wormwood: And that is…?

Screwtape: Make sure your targets read as little of the Book as possible. Don’t get too wor..ried if they stick to their favorite twenty cliché verses. But make sure they remain ignorant of most of the Word.

Wormwood: Master, you are brilliant.

Screwtape: You can call me Master if you want, but don’t let the boss hear you.

So much about NOT judging.

[Revelationist]

i also did a study where it said "You shall know them by their fruits"

It should tell you something when so called leaders start to worship false religions.

Like Judisiam?

[Luke]

Allah (English pronunciation: /ˈælə/ or /ˈɑːlə/; Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤˈlˤɑːh] ( )) is the Arabic word for God (al ilāh, iliterally "the God"). The word has cognates in other Semitic languages, including Alah in Aramaic, ʾĒl in Canaanite and Elohim in Hebrew.

So are you saying that the God of the Bible and allah are the same being?

Also do you claim to be a christian?

[Revelationist]

So are you saying that the God of the Bible and allah are the same being?

Also do you claim to be a christian?

Yeah, the God of the Old Testiment is the one they are worshiping when they pray to Allah....

Yes, I'm a Christian , I just got through reading my draughters Colledge book on Islam... I was shocked . It wasn't quit what I expected... Not all Muslems are radical. Just like not all Babtist are like that group in Kansas.

[jfrog]

So are you saying that the God of the Bible and allah are the same being?

Also do you claim to be a christian?

Well he has a point. Do you worship the God of the Jews?

[Revelationist]

Well he has a point. Do you worship the God of the Jews?

In that way, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are the same. Jews and Muslims both reject Christ as their Messiah...

[shazeep]

hmm; and yet the Qur'an plainly states that those who do not follow Christ are doomed...and 'worship' translates from the Hebrew as 'follow.'

Dordt, you say, "So much for not judging," as if this dialogue you presented were in Scripture or something. It seems significant to me that you could not relate a Scriptural passage for this lesson, and wadr it might be possible that i am posting to a hypocrite! The wicked are rebuked in ones refusal to join in; or, one may easily say, "I am scared of what God would think" over "you are a wicked pervert," and to demon...strably more effect.

Now, i'm surely as big a hypocrite as anyone, so please take that in the spirit intended. How do you get around Judge not, or you will be judged?

i also did a study where it said "You shall know them by their fruits"

It should tell you something when so called leaders start to worship false religions.It does, and it did. All of them are false. All religions, particularly yours, are worldly and have satan at their head--it's just the way things are. The moment you start signing promises to preach a certain doctrine, regardless of what the Holy Spirit may tell you in the future, you are lost.

I can tell you one thing; it was scary for me, but i have never looked back, and i am not sorry. Lose your religion. It is a stage, possibly a necessary one, but the Holy Spirit is waiting for you on the other side, and will not let one who seeks God falter; you will get plenty of nudges if you are straying from the path. Peace to you.

[Dordrecht]

In that way, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are the same. Jews and Muslims both reject Christ as their Messiah...

Rejecting Christ means being lost.
My Bible says there's only one way to the father and that's through Jesus Christ.

[Dordrecht]

Dordt, you say, "So much for not judging," as if this dialogue you presented were in Scripture or something.

Well, it's might not be in scripture but it relates to the condition of the average church.

Btw, what you are preaching in your previous post…..is that in scripture???

[Luke]

Yeah, the God of the Old Testiment is the one they are worshiping when they pray to Allah....

Yes, I'm a Christian , I just got through reading my draughters Colledge book on Islam... I was shocked . It wasn't quit what I expected... Not all Muslems are radical. Just like not all Babtist are like that group in Kansas.

So you and islamist worship the same god?

Question do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that He died on the cross?

[shazeep]

don't you see that this answer that comes out of his mouth is irrelevant?
Well, it's might not be in scripture but it relates to the condition of the average church.

Btw, what you are preaching in your previous post…..is that in scripture???Um--about all religion being satanic, you mean? yes, i believe it is. This might depend upon ones definition of 'religion,' however; and mine varies from most peoples--"Man's attempts to reach God."

[shazeep]

Well, it's might not be in scripture but it relates to the condition of the average church.in that the average church does not preach enough judgement, you mean?

[Revelationist]

So you and islamist worship the same god?

Question do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that He died on the cross?

Jehovah God was in Christ.... God robed in flesh.

[Dordrecht]

in that the average church does not preach enough judgement, you mean?

No, you need to read the Lewis quotes again.
It was referring to the wrong use of "judging" within Christian circles.

[Dordrecht]

We all know that not all muslims are terrorists, but let's be honest. There sure seem to be a lot of Muslim extremists running around the world blowing stuff up.

[Luke]

Jehovah God was in Christ.... God robed in flesh.

That in no way answers the question that I asked. Allow me to restate it:

Was Jesus the Son of God and did He die on the cross?

While you answering questions was Isaac the promised son or was it Ishmael?

[shazeep]

We all know that not all muslims are terrorists, but let's be honest. There sure seem to be a lot of Muslim extremists running around the world blowing stuff up.Sorry Dordt, but this is so ridiculous. In this case, there sure are a bunch of Christian world leaders trashing the planet, and being the world's largest arms dealers. Please see that Muslim extremist is as oxymoronic as those. Where do you think those "Muslim extremists" got their guns from, huh?

[Revelationist]

That in no way answers the question that I asked. Allow me to restate it:

Was Jesus the Son of God and did He die on the cross?

While you answering questions was Isaac the promised son or was it Ishmael?

Yes, Jesus, was the son of God, we are the sons of God. And I don't think you understood my answer...

The promise is to the younger throughout the Bible. Signifying Gods blessings on the coming New Covenant..

[Luke]

Yes, Jesus, was the son of God, we are the sons of God. And I don't think you understood my answer...

The promise is to the younger throughout the Bible. Signifying Gods blessings on the coming New Covenant..

I was just hopeing for a definite answer thank you sometimes those are hard to get on here.

So I am assuming that you are saying that yes the promised child was Isaac and not Ishmael.

What about weather or not Jesus died on the cross?

[Revelationist]

I was just hopeing for a definite answer thank you sometimes those are hard to get on here.

So I am assuming that you are saying that yes the promised child was Isaac and not Ishmael.

What about weather or not Jesus died on the cross?

Yes, Jesus died on the cross, rose again in three days, not two and a half as is celebrated.... And come again the second time to live in the hearts of believers, starting on the day of Pentecost. He promised to never to leave us again...

[Revelationist]

Sorry Dordt, but this is so ridiculous. In this case, there sure are a bunch of Christian world leaders trashing the planet, and being the world's largest arms dealers. Please see that Muslim extremist is as oxymoronic as those. Where do you think those "Muslim extremists" got their guns from, huh?

It's only a small group of them that are extremist. They are the 3rd largest religion. If they were all that way we would be in trouble. There are always a few extremist in every group.

[Luke]

How can you say that the God of the Bible and allah are the same God in light of your answers and in light of the fact that according to allah you have blasphemed atleast once if not three times?

According to allah in the koran the command is given "Say not that allah had a son".

By saying that Jesus was the Son of God according to allah you are makeing Jesus equal to allah which is strickly forbidden.

The koran in no uncertain terms definititively states that Jesus did not die on the cross.

In that you claim that Isaac not Ishmael was the promised seed you have contradicted the koran and thus called allah a liar.

How can the God of the bible and allah be one and the same when they say the exact opposite?

Maybe allah is just confused, or forgetful or as is the actual case he is simply foolowing after the example of his master (satan) and as a demon he is a liar!

The God of the Bible and allah are not one and the same it is impossible or they would say the same the things.

[Revelationist]

How can you say that the God of the Bible and allah are the same God in light of your answers and in light of the fact that according to allah you have blasphemed atleast once if not three times?

According to allah in the koran the command is given "Say not that allah had a son".

By saying that Jesus was the Son of God according to allah you are makeing Jesus equal to allah which is strickly forbidden.

The koran in no uncertain terms definititively states that Jesus did not die on the cross.

In that you claim that Isaac not Ishmael was the promised seed you have contradicted the koran and thus called allah a liar.

How can the God of the bible and allah be one and the same when they say the exact opposite?

Maybe allah is just confused, or forgetful or as is the actual case he is simply foolowing after the example of his master (satan) and as a demon he is a liar!

The God of the Bible and allah are not one and the same it is impossible or they would say the same the things.

Like I said several post back, they are like the Jews... Only a Mormon version of Jewdisim.

[Luke]

Like I said several post back, they are like the Jews... Only a Mormon version of Jewdisim.

But how can the God of the Bible and allah be the same God inlight of the contradictions that I pointed out not to mention the many others?

[shazeep]

well, if you see through the contradictions, rather than seek for them, sometimes those things become clearer. i think culture clash is getting in the way there, perhaps. See that the Qur'an was being put down on paper as the RCC was at, possibly, its raging worst, and add some context from that.

[Luke]

well, if you see through the contradictions, rather than seek for them, sometimes those things become clearer. i think culture clash is getting in the way there, perhaps. See that the Qur'an was being put down on paper as the RCC was at, possibly, its raging worst, and add some context from that.

So you are ok with the fact that Jesus is in essence called a liar and a blasphemer in that it is considered blaspheme and a lie to say that allah had a son. All the while Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.

You are ok with the hope and price of your salvation being called a lie? We have hope for salvation through Jesus paying for our salvation by His death on the cross. The false koran clearly states that Jesus did not die on the cross. We now have no hope if that is true!

[jfrog]

Just because someone spreads a few lies about you doesn't mean they aren't talking about you.

[Luke]

Just because someone spreads a few lies about you doesn't mean they aren't talking about you.

Are you saying that the koran lies about allah?

[jfrog]

Are you saying that the koran lies about allah?

Well someone is obviously lying. I didn't say whether it was the Jews, Christians or Muslims.. just that someone is not being honest about the 1 true God.

[Luke]

Well someone is obviously lying. I didn't say whether it was the Jews, Christians or Muslims.. just that someone is not being honest about the 1 true God.

The bible clearly states that there would come those who denied the truth of Jesus.

[jfrog]

The bible clearly states that there would come those who denied the truth of Jesus.

That doesn't mean they have a different God.

[Luke]

That doesn't mean they have a different God.

Do you believe that the God of the Bible and allah are one and the same?

[Aquila]

It's my understanding that Allah was originally a moon god in the pantheon of Arab pagan deities. Mohammed elevated Allah to being the only true god and attributed the stories of Abraham and others in the biblical narrative to him based on his own studies of Judaism and Christianity.

Allah Moon God

Allah Moon GodIs Allah the God of the Bible, or is Allah the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia?

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town (see Muhammad False Prophet.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

Kabah HajjTo worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible, not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.


http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/allah-moon-god.html

[Aquila]

Another link that gets into the origin of Allah,

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

[jfrog]

Another link that gets into the origin of Allah,

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Aquila, I mean this in all seriousness, I can find many links to Christianity and paganism as well.

[Aquila]

Aquila, I mean this in all seriousness, I can find many links to Christianity and paganism as well.

Yes, but even our pagan connections are different. lol

[Revelationist]

But how can the God of the Bible and allah be the same God inlight of the contradictions that I pointed out not to mention the many others?

Those same contradictions fit the Jews so you tell me how we can be serving the same God of the Jews?

[Abiding Now]

What can you expect, they're catholics.

[shazeep]

Those same contradictions fit the Jews so you tell me how we can be serving the same God of the Jews?BAM

[Luke]

BAM

Very simple the Jews as a people group disagree with the Bible but the Jewish Holy book which they (and I along with most christians agree) have from God does not disagree with one of the things listed.

Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus died on the cross.

Isaac was the child of promise to Abraham and Sarah.

The Jews as people are wrong in regards to the first two but the Old testament is not. Therefore the God of their Holy book is not contradicting.


On the other hand the book claimed to be from allah says the exact opposite as the Bible in these specific places among others. Therefore it is the god of islam and his book that is at odds with the God of the Bible not simply the thoughts or feelings of the people.

Do you see the difference?

[Luke]

Those same contradictions fit the Jews so you tell me how we can be serving the same God of the Jews?

Very simple the Jews as a people group disagree with the Bible but the Jewish Holy book which they (and I along with most christians agree) have from God does not disagree with one of the things listed.

Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus died on the cross.

Isaac was the child of promise to Abraham and Sarah.

The Jews as people are wrong in regards to the first two but the Old testament is not. Therefore the God of their Holy book is not contradicting.


On the other hand the book claimed to be from allah says the exact opposite as the Bible in these specific places among others. Therefore it is the god of islam and his book that is at odds with the God of the Bible not simply the thoughts or feelings of the people.

Do you see the difference?

[Revelationist]

Very simple the Jews as a people group disagree with the Bible but the Jewish Holy book which they (and I along with most christians agree) have from God does not disagree with one of the things listed.

Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus died on the cross.

Isaac was the child of promise to Abraham and Sarah.

The Jews as people are wrong in regards to the first two but the Old testament is not. Therefore the God of their Holy book is not contradicting.


On the other hand the book claimed to be from allah says the exact opposite as the Bible in these specific places among others. Therefore it is the god of islam and his book that is at odds with the God of the Bible not simply the thoughts or feelings of the people.

Do you see the difference?

The Jews have removed all but the first five books because the rest prophecy about the coming Mesiah... So no, not quit seeing the difference... Islam also uses the first five books, the Torah.

[Luke]

The Jews have removed all but the first five books because the rest prophecy about the coming Mesiah... So no, not quit seeing the difference... Islam also uses the first five books, the Torah.

So do the first five. To be honest I had never heard that they did that. Still no where in the first five books does it ever contracdict any of the three points that i listed. However the islamist book does specificly contradict those points.

The difference is clear in that the Jews don't like the idea of Jesus therefore they as man ignore, remove and reject Him but the God of their Holy book does none of these things.

However the god of the islamist says the exact opposite of those three points in his book.

With the Jews it is humans contracdicting with the islamist it is their god contradicting.

If I were arguing that the Jews werer the same as the God of the Bible as you are that allah is the same as the God mof the Bible then you would be correct in saying that I a wrong or that my position is faulty. Even if the muslims as people were the ones saying the contradictory things when their book was not then you would be correct. However with the Jews it is man that has it wrong not God but with islam it is both the men and their god.

[Revelationist]

So do the first five. To be honest I had never heard that they did that. Still no where in the first five books does it ever contracdict any of the three points that i listed. However the islamist book does specificly contradict those points.

The difference is clear in that the Jews don't like the idea of Jesus therefore they as man ignore, remove and reject Him but the God of their Holy book does none of these things.

However the god of the islamist says the exact opposite of those three points in his book.

With the Jews it is humans contracdicting with the islamist it is their god contradicting.

If I were arguing that the Jews werer the same as the God of the Bible as you are that allah is the same as the God mof the Bible then you would be correct in saying that I a wrong or that my position is faulty. Even if the muslims as people were the ones saying the contradictory things when their book was not then you would be correct. However with the Jews it is man that has it wrong not God but with islam it is both the men and their god.

They both use the Torah. Are you saying they are not the same Torah?

[Luke]

They both use the Torah. Are you saying they are not the same Torah?

The islamist use the koran as their book. Are you say the Torah and the koran are the same book?

[shazeep]

Very simple the Jews as a people group disagree with the Bible but the Jewish Holy book which they (and I along with most christians agree) have from God does not disagree with one of the things listed.

Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus died on the cross.

Isaac was the child of promise to Abraham and Sarah.

The Jews as people are wrong in regards to the first two but the Old testament is not. Therefore the God of their Holy book is not contradicting.


On the other hand the book claimed to be from allah says the exact opposite as the Bible in these specific places among others. Therefore it is the god of islam and his book that is at odds with the God of the Bible not simply the thoughts or feelings of the people.

Do you see the difference?so you condemn them from a legal standpoint, then.

[Revelationist]

The islamist use the koran as their book. Are you say the Torah and the koran are the same book?

No, your not hearing what I'm saying.... They use the Torah, and like the Mormans were later given the Koran in addition to the Torah....

[jfrog]

No, your not hearing what I'm saying.... They use the Torah, and like the Mormans were later given the Koran in addition to the Torah....

It's hard to say a religion which recognizes Jesus as a prophet could serve a totally different God than the one who sent Jesus...

[Dordrecht]

It's hard to say a religion which recognizes Jesus as a prophet could serve a totally different God than the one who sent Jesus...

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. They claim it was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

[shazeep]

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. They claim it was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)"and He took our sins upon Himself, and died for us" paraphrased? but even if not, while that did initially bug me, i realized that if it did not inhibit a Muslim from following "Love your neighbor," which i observe that it did not seem to, then what is that to me?

there was a man that had a vineyard, and two sons...

[jfrog]

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. They claim it was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

So? I didn't say they weren't wrong about things...

[shazeep]

it could be viewed spiritually as Christ dying for us, i think

[oneinkhorn]

Militants Post Photos of Mass Killing in Iraq

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/militants-post-images-mass-killing-iraq-24145498


http://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_960w/Boston/2011-2020/2014/06/15/BostonGlobe.com/National/Images/fd945be5fa7f4d039fb815523efd86d2-fd945be5fa7f4d039fb815523efd86d2-0.jpg


http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/time-i-iraq-isil-140615.jpg

[Luke]

No, your not hearing what I'm saying.... They use the Torah, and like the Mormans were later given the Koran in addition to the Torah....

Not true the islamist did not originate from useing the torahand then get the koran. Islam stated when mohammed claimed to have recieved the koran.

[Luke]

It's hard to say a religion which recognizes Jesus as a prophet could serve a totally different God than the one who sent Jesus...

No it makes it very clear and obvious that a religion is satanic when it attempts to demote Jesus from God to a mere prophet.

[jfrog]

Not true the islamist did not originate from useing the torahand then get the koran. Islam stated when mohammed claimed to have recieved the koran.

I wonder what religion Mohammed belonged to before writing the Quran. I wonder which god he worshipped before Islam started... Do you think Mohammed felt he suddenly started worshipping a different god when he started Islam?

[jfrog]

No it makes it very clear and obvious that a religion is satanic when it attempts to demote Jesus from God to a mere prophet.

Where?

[Revelationist]

No it makes it very clear and obvious that a religion is satanic when it attempts to demote Jesus from God to a mere prophet.

Yeah, the Jews don't even put Jesus that high on the list. Do you fill that they are Satanic also?

[jfrog]

Yeah, the Jews don't even put Jesus that high on the list. Do you fill that they are Satanic also?

Lol. I just love me some hypocrisy in the morning!

[Revelationist]

I wonder what religion Mohammed belonged to before writing the Quran. I wonder which god he worshipped before Islam started... Do you think Mohammed felt he suddenly started worshipping a different god when he started Islam?

He worshiped Jehovah God of the Old Testament like the Jews before and after the Quran.

[Luke]

"and He took our sins upon Himself, and died for us" paraphrased? but even if not, while that did initially bug me, i realized that if it did not inhibit a Muslim from following "Love your neighbor," which i observe that it did not seem to, then what is that to me?

there was a man that had a vineyard, and two sons...

maybe I am misunderstanding your post but are you saying that weather or not Jesus actually died for our sins is of no importance as long as some one love thier neighbour.

Also what does you allusion to the parables of the vineyard with bad keepers and the prodigal son have to do with anything?

[Luke]

He worshiped Jehovah God of the Old Testament like the Jews before and after the Quran.

No he did not he worshiped allah the moon god idol in the kaa'ab.

[Luke]

Yeah, the Jews don't even put Jesus that high on the list. Do you fill that they are Satanic also?

Judaism as practised under the old testament is a false religion that if followed will lead a person to hell same as any other false religion. However it unlike islam is not satanic in orgin rather it was institued by God. It was meant to point toward Jesus and lead up to Him therefore it is fulfilled religion. Also as popinted out earlier the Holy Book used by Judaism ( the old testament) does not in any way demote Jesus.

[Revelationist]

No he did not he worshiped allah the moon god idol in the kaa'ab.

Then why does Islam have the first five books of the Bible? Like the Jews they read the Torah.

[jfrog]

No he did not he worshiped allah the moon god idol in the kaa'ab.

Do u know what Allah means? It means the god.

I do not worship the god of the moon even though I worship the god! Just because the god appears in that phrase doesn't mean it is the same god.

[Luke]

Do u know what Allah means? It means the god.

I do not worship the god of the moon even though I worship the god! Just because the god appears in that phrase doesn't mean it is the same god.

The God that Mohammed worshiped was named allah this was an idol in the kaa'ba to the moon god it was not and is not the name of Jehovah God of the Bible.

[Revelationist]

The God that Mohammed worshiped was named allah this was an idol in the kaa'ba to the moon god it was not and is not the name of Jehovah God of the Bible.

Hopeless.

[jfrog]

The God that Mohammed worshiped was named allah this was an idol in the kaa'ba to the moon god it was not and is not the name of Jehovah God of the Bible.

Did you read what I wrote?

[Luke]

Then why does Islam have the first five books of the Bible? Like the Jews they read the Torah.

How does that at all change who or what he worshipped before he started the religion of islam? The god that he worshipped befroe and after the beginning of islam was not and is not the God of the the Old or new testament! The god that he worshipped and put forth denied Jesus as the son of God, denied that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, denied that isaac was the promised seed of Abraham. No where in the old testament are any of the three things mentioned denied. As to mohammed useing the torah it should be noted that mohammed believed that the torah had been corrupted. It is therefore very unlikely that the torah acknowledged by islamist would match the torah of the Jews.

[Luke]

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes it seemed that you were saying that allah was simply a name for God.

[Revelationist]

They still read the Torah.

[shazeep]

and regardless of what the definition of Allah may have meant at one time, it is the definition that one carries with them, the personal one, that matters.

You worship an Unknown God, capitalized because you cannot know Him. Ever.

[Luke]

They still read the Torah.

A distorted revised version.

[Luke]

and regardless of what the definition of Allah may have meant at one time, it is the definition that one carries with them, the personal one, that matters.

You worship an Unknown God, capitalized because you cannot know Him. Ever.

Not true if someone decides to change the meaning of satan to mean savior or god it would not change who he was or is.

I know my God it is the Muslims that say that god cannot be known and to say that you know him is to be blasphemous.

[shazeep]

Not true if someone decides to change the meaning of satan to mean savior or god it would not change who he was or is.

I know my God it is the Muslims that say that god cannot be known and to say that you know him is to be blasphemous.ok, then let me correct myself, and say that if one is seeking One God--as opposed to satan, or polytheism--then that is what is relevant, imo.

To say that you know God is blasphemy, don't you think? You really think you know God, in this context? I'm pretty sure i could at least fit several Scriptures to my purpose there...you?

[jfrog]

Yes it seemed that you were saying that allah was simply a name for God.

What else would it be?

[Luke]

What else would it be?

It is the name of an idol moon god.

[Luke]

ok, then let me correct myself, and say that if one is seeking One God--as opposed to satan, or polytheism--then that is what is relevant, imo.

No for there is but one true God and any other that is sought after weather it be one or many will not lead one to the truth.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Also as the old hymn says:

" There is just one way to the pearly gate,
To the crown of life and the friends who wait;
’Tis the old Cross Road, or the way called “Straight”—
There is just one way to the pearly gate."




To say that you know God is blasphemy, don't you think? You really think you know God, in this context? I'm pretty sure i could at least fit several Scriptures to my purpose there...you?

I do know God as it is His desire for us to know Him therefore He reveals Himself to us for that there is plent of scripture. God invites us to come unto Him and to learn of Him nowhere does He forbid us to know Him or say that we cannot know Him.

If however you mean that i as a human cannot fully comprehend all that God is in his infinitness then you are correct that our minds cannot grasp all that He is. He however has revealed to us WHO He is.

[jfrog]

It is the name of an idol moon god.

"Moon god" is named after god as well.

[Luke]

"Moon god" is named after god as well.

A false demon god not the God of the Bible.

[oneinkhorn]

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? George W. Bush settles the argument and also explains who goes to Heaven.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O10-JVXNqrw

[shazeep]

No for there is but one true God...and how many Names does God have?

and any other that is sought after weather it be one or many will not lead one to the truth. How do you know? This amounts to saying, "I know all the Names of God." The Ninevites are disagreeing with you here, i think. You've been to seminary, huh--i can tell.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And how many Names has Christ? You must know that "Love" is one of them? Forget completely all that death-centered yack they taught you, Luke--they had ulterior motives.

Also as the old hymn says:

" There is just one way to the pearly gate,
To the crown of life and the friends who wait;
’Tis the old Cross Road, or the way called “Straight”—
There is just one way to the pearly gate."
and yet, i don't hear crosses being picked up here; but fingers pointed; "not them." worse yet, i hear an implied, "US, not them." :lol ok
I do know God as it is His desire for us to know Him therefore He reveals Himself to us for that there is plent of scripture. God invites us to come unto Him and to learn of Him nowhere does He forbid us to know Him or say that we cannot know Him.
yes, Luke; God reveals Himself to those who love Him. And wadr, those who love Him exhibit certain characteristics. There are also plenty of Scriptures to back up that you can not, ever, "know" God, which you approach in your final sentence. You know, on some level, that God exists. You "know" God.

If however you mean that i as a human cannot fully comprehend all that God is in his infinitness then you are correct that our minds cannot grasp all that He is. He however has revealed to us WHO He is.
Yes. The Unknown God, The One--and not the many, other gods that exist. But you have been trained that this must, ergo, then mean that your translators, that taught you their definitions, have the Spirit down to a 't,' and anyone who says that they have found God outside of that little inbred model are in error--despite many, many parables to the contrary. C'mon, Luke--you have a flock, yes? Could you de-sphincterize the Word just the slightest little bit? If you will but acknowledge that the devil is in the details--one detail being that you signed a promise to preach all that...whatever, despite any future revelations that may be to the contrary, you will begin to see what was stolen from you.

[shazeep]

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? George W. Bush settles the argument and also explains who goes to Heaven.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O10-JVXNqrw:lol even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then...

[jfrog]

A false demon god not the God of the Bible.

And yet it shares the name god nonetheless...

[shazeep]

The bottom line is, why don't we let God be the judge of that, being as how we cannot even rightly say that we "know God" ourselves. There are equally as many "Muslims" showing me the pagan origins of "EL." See that the very notion of discounting another's One God is demonstrating ignorance of God; particularly if that person is more loving than you are. While i am personally convinced that Allah is God to many Muslims, there are surely more "Muslims" who will cry "Allah" and not be heard, the same as Christians. It amounts to a control device, to keep us separated. It is satanic.

Now, by the same token, we live in a fallen world; i 'came to Christ' with this model--indirectly. I can't say that many, many others, with better hearts than mine maybe, did not come to Christ directly with our model. But I can say, from Scripture, that God does not care a whit about what religion you are; and that your religion is most likely an anchor, and not the good way. It is man's attempt to find God, with the best of human intentions, and doomed to failure.

[Luke]

and how many Names does God have?
How do you know? This amounts to saying, "I know all the Names of God." The Ninevites are disagreeing with you here, i think. You've been to seminary, huh--i can tell.

There is a general term "God" but this is defined by context and speaker. Thus we have the Christian God the islamist (demon) god along with the other (demon) gods of all other false religions. If you wounder why i call them demon gods I am just agreeing with the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

There is His specific name Jehovah to which was added descriptive words in the old testament.

There is the name Jesus which we kow as God with us.

There is what some might call the title the Holy Ghost.

The ninevites had Jehovah preached to them and their repentance would have been to Jehovah not there wicked perverse gods. Therefore the ninevites agree with me.


John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And how many Names has Christ? You must know that "Love" is one of them? Forget completely all that death-centered yack they taught you, Luke--they had ulterior motives.

So you pray to love? Do you ever pray to judgment, wrath, mercy or omniscince which are all attributes of God just as love is an attribute of God?

There is salvation in ONLY one name that is the name JESUS:

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


John10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


and yet, i don't hear crosses being picked up here; but fingers pointed; "not them." worse yet, i hear an implied, "US, not them." :lol ok

There is no finger pointing going on here rather there is a loving warning that proclaims the truth that there is only one way to heaven and that way is Jesus. Are you saying that you believe that there are other ways?


yes, Luke; God reveals Himself to those who love Him. And wadr, those who love Him exhibit certain characteristics. There are also plenty of Scriptures to back up that you can not, ever, "know" God, which you approach in your final sentence. You know, on some level, that God exists. You "know" God.

He has revealed His existance to mankind.

The first of those chareacter istics is sorrow for sin the repentance which is followed up by love of the truth. There are NO scriptures that say we cannot know God. There are those that may say we cannot know all there is to know of God simply because we are finite and He is infinite but we can know who He is and what He is like and what He expects of us. With the afore mentioned knowledge of God there is no scripture (in context and not twisted) that disagrees.



Yes. The Unknown God, The One--and not the many, other gods that exist. But you have been trained that this must, ergo, then mean that your translators, that taught you their definitions, have the Spirit down to a 't,' and anyone who says that they have found God outside of that little inbred model are in error--despite many, many parables to the contrary. C'mon, Luke--you have a flock, yes? Could you de-sphincterize the Word just the slightest little bit? If you will but acknowledge that the devil is in the details--one detail being that you signed a promise to preach all that...whatever, despite any future revelations that may be to the contrary, you will begin to see what was stolen from you.

The unknown God is a name used by heathen pagans which Paul used to show how superstitious they were. We can know God. I do not base my doctrine upon what I told by men but rather upon the Bible God's ONE written revealed word.

Please name the Biblical parable that speaks of man finding God aside from or ourside of Jesus/the Bible.

I agree the devil is in the details or rather the devilis in the twisting of the details.

[Luke]

And yet it shares the name god nonetheless...

The devil is a master deciever and has from his fall sought to be God but he has and will continue to fail. The closest he can come is to the false little g rank.

When King Ahab and King Jehoshaphat were about to go attack the Syrians at Ramoth-gilead in 1Kings 22 Jehoshapat asked Ahab to enquire of the Lord through the prophets. Ahab called togather 400 men that were called prohets but Jehoshaphat asked for a prophet of the Lord. See Jehoshaphat knew what you are missing that just because something may seem to share a title or lay claim to a title they are not the same as the real thing.

Jesus also speaks of this when He said that many false Christ would come and claim to be Him but they were false even though they claimed His name and even though according to them they shared the same name.

[Luke]

:lol even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then...

God settled that question long before President Bush existed:

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

[shazeep]

that seems to overlook that Allah is decidedly a Monotheistic God, just like "The Unknown God" of the Ninevites. Notice the plural at 'devils?' But in general, since even those who suppose themselves to be 'Christian' may cry "Lord, Lord," pointlessly, I would say that there are ways to know whether these...Ninevites, or Muslims...or even Masons, for that matter, actually worship the One True God or not--and these ways can't be faked--and that generalizations are pointless, and can only divide.

[Luke]

that seems to overlook that Allah is decidedly a Monotheistic God, just like "The Unknown God" of the Ninevites. Notice the plural at 'devils?' But in general, since even those who suppose themselves to be 'Christian' may cry "Lord, Lord," pointlessly, I would say that there are ways to know whether these...Ninevites, or Muslims...or even Masons, for that matter, actually worship the One True God or not--and these ways can't be faked--and that generalizations are pointless, and can only divide.

The alter to the unknown God was on wars hill outside of Athens Greece not in Ninevah.

Does the koran (the muslim book) deny that Jesus died on the cross and deny that Jesus was the Son of God?

[Revelationist]

The alter to the unknown God was on wars hill outside of Athens Greece not in Ninevah.

Does the koran (the muslim book) deny that Jesus died on the cross and deny that Jesus was the Son of God?

Just like the Jews.

[Luke]

Just like the Jews.

I admit that the religion of Judaism after the cross became a flase religion. However you are wrong and being misleading to say that the Old testament denies the death of Jesus on the cross or that it denies that Jesus was the son of God. Please provide the references.

[Revelationist]

I admit that the religion of Judaism after the cross became a flase religion. However you are wrong and being misleading to say that the Old testament denies the death of Jesus on the cross or that it denies that Jesus was the son of God. Please provide the references.

BothJews and Muslims threw out all but the first five books to eliminate references.

[Luke]

BothJews and Muslims threw out all but the first five books to eliminate references.

Instead of going around and around in circles please answer this simple question:

Does the Jewish holy book deny that Jesus died on the cross or that He was the son of God?

[jfrog]

Instead of going around and around in circles please answer this simple question:

Does the Jewish holy book deny that Jesus died on the cross or that He was the son of God?

It matters not what you can make the book say, it matters what the people who read the book believe it says.

[Luke]

It matters not what you can make the book say, it matters what the people who read the book believe it says.

Not true if two books are supposedly about the same God and both claim divine orgin yet one clearly says that Jesus died on the cross and was the Son of God while the other clearly says the exact opposite they are obviously not about the same God nor by the same divine author and what they say is exactly what matters.

[jfrog]

Not true if two books are supposedly about the same God and both claim divine orgin yet one clearly says that Jesus died on the cross and was the Son of God while the other clearly says the exact opposite they are obviously not about the same God nor by the same divine author and what they say is exactly what matters.

Is it enough to say that the Quran didn't come from God even though muslims believe it did? And if it was not from God then it was invented by man. Just because they have a book they think is divine that was actually invented by man doesn't mean they automatically have a different God.

[shazeep]

There was a man who owned a vineyard, and had two sons...

[Luke]

Is it enough to say that the Quran didn't come from God even though muslims believe it did? And if it was not from God then it was invented by man. Just because they have a book they think is divine that was actually invented by man doesn't mean they automatically have a different God.

Yes it does:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

If one book claims that Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God and the other book says Jesus did not die on the cross and was not the son of God then they cannot both be correct. Atleast one of the books is lying and which ever of the two is lying falls under this catagory:

John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Therefore one book is of God the other of the devil.

[Revelationist]

Instead of going around and around in circles please answer this simple question:

Does the Jewish holy book deny that Jesus died on the cross or that He was the son of God?


The Torah does prophecy about Jesus either. Them books have been removed.

[Luke]

There was a man who owned a vineyard, and had two sons...

Please put the rest of the parable and explain how it applies.

[Luke]

The Torah does prophecy about Jesus either. Them books have been removed.

That is not what I asked you simply avoided the question. Allow me to restate it:

Does the Jewish holy book deny that Jesus died on the cross or that He was the son of God?

[jfrog]

Luke, you are saying that the bible and quran disagree on many important points. We all agree. That doesn't translate into there being a different God. The pharisees were hypoctires that closed the kingdom of heaven up. Jesus said their father was Satan and yet they still worshipped the same God as Jesus.

[Luke]

Luke, you are saying that the bible and quran disagree on many important points. We all agree. That doesn't translate into there being a different God. The pharisees were hypoctires that closed the kingdom of heaven up. Jesus said their father was Satan and yet they still worshipped the same God as Jesus.

Jesus seemed to imply by your quote that they were worshiping satan. They were decieved.

[jfrog]

Jesus seemed to imply by your quote that they were worshiping satan. They were decieved.

Then you see it differenly than I. The pharisees worshipped the one true God. Just because they were deceived doesn't make them incapable of worshipping the one true god. It just makes them deceived worshippers of the one true God.

[Revelationist]

That is not what I asked you simply avoided the question. Allow me to restate it:

Does the Jewish holy book deny that Jesus died on the cross or that He was the son of God?

Your not understanding my answer, both Muslams and Jews use the first five books of the Old Testiment. The prophecys of Jesus have been removed because both groups deny Christ.

[Luke]

Luke, you are saying that the bible and quran disagree on many important points. We all agree. That doesn't translate into there being a different God. The pharisees were hypoctires that closed the kingdom of heaven up. Jesus said their father was Satan and yet they still worshipped the same God as Jesus.

You are avoiding the issue if they are about the same God why does one deny Him? How can the islamist worship who they deny?

[jfrog]

You are avoiding the issue if they are about the same God why does one deny Him? How can the islamist worship who they deny?

Was God always with us as the man Jesus Christ?

[Luke]

Your not understanding my answer, both Muslams and Jews use the first five books of the Old Testiment. The prophecys of Jesus have been removed because both groups deny Christ.

So you are saying that the Torah says that Jesus did not die on the cross and that He was not the son of God?

[Luke]

Was God always with us as the man Jesus Christ?

No there was a time when Jesus existed but had not human body.

[Revelationist]

So you are saying that the Torah says that Jesus did not die on the cross and that He was not the son of God?

I'm saying it says nothing about it.

[Luke]

I'm saying it says nothing about it.

Does the koran say anyhting about weather Jesus died on the cross and weather or not He was the son of God?

[jfrog]

No there was a time when Jesus existed but had not human body.

And they both worship the god who was before jesus existed. They aren't right about everything, then again most christians aren't either.

[Luke]

And they both worship the god who was before jesus existed. They aren't right about everything, then again most christians aren't either.

There was never a time when Jesus did not exist.

[Revelationist]

Does the koran say anyhting about weather Jesus died on the cross and weather or not He was the son of God?

Never read it. But I do no that neither group has it in their Torah.

[Luke]

Never read it. But I do no that neither group has it in their Torah.

If I can show you that it specificly says Jesus did not die on the cross and that He was not the son of God would you agree that it is not talking about the same God?

[Revelationist]

If I can show you that it specificly says Jesus did not die on the cross and that He was not the son of God would you agree that it is not talking about the same God?


Neither Jews or Muslams believe in Jesus. Neither believe in the God we worship if you look at it that way. But Islam and Jews worship the same god.

[Luke]

Neither Jews or Muslams believe in Jesus. Neither believe in the God we worship if you look at it that way. But Islam and Jews worship the same god.

Do you always avoid questions?

[Revelationist]

Do you always avoid questions?


Do the Muslams reject Christ like the Jews?

John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

[Luke]

Do the Muslams reject Christ like the Jews?

John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

The god of islam denies Jesus.

[Revelationist]

The god of islam denies Jesus.

And so does the God of Juedism.

[Luke]

And so does the God of Juedism.

Where in their holy book does this denial occur?

[oneinkhorn]

Pastor Burned By Muslims Issues Warning To America About Impending Islam


http://thefreedompress.com/pastor-burned-muslims-issues-warning-america-impending-islam/

Pastor Umar Mulinde was born in Uganda to a Muslim family with his father being an area-Muslim leader. But after Mulinde converted to Christianity he was attacked for his new faith. Mulinde went on record to tell his story and issue a warning to America.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X55bcNuMhKI#t=530

[Revelationist]

Do the Muslams reject Christ like the Jews?

John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Where in their holy book does this denial occur?

Your argument is like trying to prove the Serpent Seed Doctrine wrong using Bible. It's built on nothing. You can't disprove that type argument.

[Dante]

All of this is anti-Islamic propaganda.

[Luke]

Your argument is like trying to prove the Serpent Seed Doctrine wrong using Bible. It's built on nothing. You can't disprove that type argument.

You said the God of Judaism denies that Jesus died on the cross and that Jesus was the son of God. All I am asking is for you to show me in the Jewish holy book. That should be easy of your claim is true bit we both know it is not true so you again avoid questions and makes abstract and irrelevant statements to cover for a lack of proof.

[Luke]

All of this is anti-Islamic propaganda.

They are not ashamed to agree with what I posted.

[jfrog]

:happydanceThey are not ashamed to agree with what I posted.

It doesn't make them right either...

[shazeep]

hmm, ok, well the mainstream, i guess--they actually got divorced...The god of islam denies Jesus.to say 'denies' is not fair. Rejects your conception of, cannot abide the RCC in connection with, yes. But i am struck by how accepting both Muslims and Islam are of either Christians or Jews who are enlightened; both are called 'brother' if brother they be. Fox news notwithstanding. So to dwell on a fine point, the way one happens to be holding their mouth when they discuss Christ, seems to me to be missing the point. Islam has been presented to you as the enemy; when they are not--or at least needn't be, imo.

I also reject your version of Christ, wadr. I have seen where this version comes from.

'When did we see you thirsty?' applies to at least as many Muslims as Christians, in my experience, and to fall for the current party line, and label the average Muslim as having fallaciously stumbled into the wrong Monotheistic God, when you have not experienced the individual, surely struggling as we are to arrive at a valid conception of Christ, an alive one--and not that cheap, judgemental imitation that we are served here--is to take the role of accuser, to an oppressed people no less (you would die if you had to live most any of their lives). The stone that the 'builders' reject has a way of becoming the cornerstone, so you might want to consider that there is prolly a middle ground. peace.

[shazeep]

You said the God of Judaism denies that Jesus died on the cross and that Jesus was the son of God. All I am asking is for you to show me in the Jewish holy book. That should be easy of your claim is true bit we both know it is not true so you again avoid questions and makes abstract and irrelevant statements to cover for a lack of proof.God divorced Judaism a couple hundred years BC, didn't He? See that what Judaism did since then is also irrelevant, imo.

[Luke]

Shazeep which part do you reject that He died on the cross and rose again or that He was the son of God (all of these points the islamist and the koran reject)?

As to where the adore mentioned version comes from is the Bible the only true word of God!

[shazeep]

There is no finger pointing going on here rather there is a loving warning that proclaims the truth that there is only one way to heaven and that way is Jesus. Are you saying that you believe that there are other ways?
No; I'm saying that i know, for sure, as sure as i am about our salvation, that there are 'other' ways. They are the same way. They must follow spiritually what you are regurgitating literally. I don't mean that to be a put-down, so please take it at face value. That is a 'book' knowing, that we are given.

The first of those chareacter istics is sorrow for sin the repentance which is followed up by love of the truth.
There it is--imo, just find some less loaded words for a couple of those terms, as they have been corrupted now, and regurgitate that. I doubt we are qualified to even discuss Christianity, frankly. I'm sure we're not. Every time we post, you or me, someone in hell laughs, and someone in heaven shakes their head.
There are NO scriptures that say we cannot know God.
Who can know God? seems pretty clear to me, Luke. And i am led to say "wait 'til you meet Christ!" um, which may not be for you, but in general. He is a picture on the wall to most here; Someone we give a little nod to every now and then; and the door to our introduction of Him having been blocked, most will never progress past the "What should i be doing for God" stage, and those that do, who are led into 'ministry,' are mostly regressing rather than progressing.

i don't mean to imply that these do not love the idea of God; or even that they are not genuinely seeking a closer walk--but that ones early training is extremely difficult to overcome; and that training is being overseen by the world.

[shazeep]

Shazeep which part do you reject that He died on the cross and rose again or that He was the son of God (all of these points the islamist and the koran reject)?
I accept them both, but reject the rigid, literal definitions that you imply that i must adhere to. These are Acts that have spiritual significance to me, that i am to emulate even, and i was unable to make them relevant to my walk with the "get saved, wait to die and go to heaven" model.

[shazeep]

All of this is anti-Islamic propaganda.yup, and kept stirred on purpose to divide us; so that our unity, where we all agree, may not be discovered...or at least, not discovered as quickly, as this is inevitable. We are told we have enemies, that must be fought, so the PTB, the Rothschilds (children of wrath, hello), that run the world, may continue doing so.

Do you have any enemies, as a Christian? i have satan, that is it, and he is no match for the Spirit. There, i am completely finished, for life, with enemies. Everything else is a carefully constructed illusion.

[shazeep]

"As to where the adore mentioned version comes from is the Bible the only true word of God!"

my feeling there Luke is that i am as indoctrinated as you are, and so yes, for me the Bible, warts and all, is the way. Wish i could read the originals, but i'm pretty sure the point there is that the Spirit cannot be hidden if one seeks--which, i think, inevitably leads one to the conclusion that the Spirit is in other monotheistic works as well. Different words, same Spirit. i have yet to read a Tao story that does not include a deeper spiritual lesson than many can seem to derive from the Bible, for whatever reason. Now, i don't use the Tao--and frankly, don't care where God is not, because i now seek for where He is, if that makes any sense. I could never point and say, "God is not there" now (even tho i still do...); i am charged with bringing God there. It is just a different approach. It is the approach of the parable i started, and you wanted me to finish, i'll look for that one now.

[shazeep]

ya, can't find it now, so please restate your point there.

[shazeep]

it doesn't matter if you have Christ nailed down literally, if you never approach Him spiritually. The reverse is also completely true.

[Luke]

No; I'm saying that i know, for sure, as sure as i am about our salvation, that there are 'other' ways. They are the same way. They must follow spiritually what you are regurgitating literally. I don't mean that to be a put-down, so please take it at face value. That is a 'book' knowing, that we are given.

I am sorry but you are mistaken there is only one way of salvation and that is through Jesus and His death (on the cross) burial and ressurection.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Salvationc omes through faith in the death burial and riseing again of JESUS there is no other way.

To say otherwise is to say that Jesus was either wrong and you know what He did not or that He is a liar.


There it is--imo, just find some less loaded words for a couple of those terms, as they have been corrupted now, and regurgitate that. I doubt we are qualified to even discuss Christianity, frankly. I'm sure we're not. Every time we post, you or me, someone in hell laughs, and someone in heaven shakes their head.

Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose. However as I said those are characteristics but they are useless without the death and resurection of Jesus it is faith in Jesus that saves. There is no other way.





Who can know God? seems pretty clear to me, Luke. And i am led to say "wait 'til you meet Christ!" um, which may not be for you, but in general. He is a picture on the wall to most here; Someone we give a little nod to every now and then; and the door to our introduction of Him having been blocked, most will never progress past the "What should i be doing for God" stage, and those that do, who are led into 'ministry,' are mostly regressing rather than progressing.

i don't mean to imply that these do not love the idea of God; or even that they are not genuinely seeking a closer walk--but that ones early training is extremely difficult to overcome; and that training is being overseen by the world.

Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot know God?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[jfrog]

Shazeep your views intrigue me.

[Luke]

"As to where the adore mentioned version comes from is the Bible the only true word of God!"

my feeling there Luke is that i am as indoctrinated as you are, and so yes, for me the Bible, warts and all, is the way. Wish i could read the originals, but i'm pretty sure the point there is that the Spirit cannot be hidden if one seeks--which, i think, inevitably leads one to the conclusion that the Spirit is in other monotheistic works as well. Different words, same Spirit. i have yet to read a Tao story that does not include a deeper spiritual lesson than many can seem to derive from the Bible, for whatever reason. Now, i don't use the Tao--and frankly, don't care where God is not, because i now seek for where He is, if that makes any sense. I could never point and say, "God is not there" now (even tho i still do...); i am charged with bringing God there. It is just a different approach. It is the approach of the parable i started, and you wanted me to finish, i'll look for that one now.

Man is not seeking after God rather God seeks after man.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rather man kames a god that fits them and makes them comfortable.

As far as the other writings of the false religions. These are not other gospels or other ways there is no other way!

Galatians 2:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Luke]

There was never a time when Jesus did not exist.

Bump to Jfrog

[shazeep]

Shazeep your views intrigue me.hmm. i started out just like Luke, Christianity with a jacket. Free your mind, and the rest will follow, imo. You must become heretical to the 'established church'--and by that i mean those with authority in worldly eyes, not the true church, the people--in order to find Christ. Sadducees can only describe Him to you.

[Luke]

hmm. i started out just like Luke, Christianity with a jacket. Free your mind, and the rest will follow, imo. You must become heretical to the 'established church'--and by that i mean those with authority in worldly eyes, not the true church, the people--in order to find Christ. Sadducees can only describe Him to you.

You have not found Christ you have made Him one of many ways when He said that he is the only way. Wht you found was the tired old falsehood of universalism.

[jfrog]

Bump to Jfrog

The man Jesus Christ existed before being born of Mary? I think not...

[shazeep]

I am sorry but you are mistaken there is only one way of salvation and that is through Jesus and His death (on the cross) burial and ressurection."You vill accept the rigid definitions that our masters and translators have indoctrinated us with, regardless of their spiritual significances." gotcha.



Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?yes, yes--these are all still completely, SPIRITUALLY true.
"When did we see you thirsty" tells me that these sheep never knew the words you have memorized; they knew the spirit. That is all that matters.

Salvationc omes through faith in the death burial and riseing again of JESUS there is no other way.oh, a big amen. see that that is a literal copy of a spiritual model, and that mute people are allowed in also! :lol

Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose.how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' the devil is in the details here. while i totally agree with your words, detectives are able to make the innocent confess, given enough time. see the relationship. you did not translate Scripture from the original, and even if you 'learn' the original language, you prolly still cannot think in it. at least question. seek. search. dig. we have internet now. everything we are taught by another man--me included--is wrong in some little regard.

Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot know God?Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny ...
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. ... Such people claim
they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. ...
Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by ...
But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-(bam)
Eccl 9:1 This, too, I carefully explored: Even though the actions of godly and wise people are in God's hands, no one knows whether God will show them favor. (ergo, you do not know God)
I'm looking for the Psalm (i thot it was), "Who can know God?" but maybe i imagined that one? Bible search can be so frustrating, lol. Yes, you know on some level that God exists. Better than nothing. A start, It is enough.

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

all perfect illustrations, imo. you have a view of what they mean, i have a view of what they mean; but Christ may have a different view, that is neither of ours. Nor the Sadducees, for sure.

[Luke]

The man Jesus Christ existed before being born of Mary? I think not...

I did not say that.

Jesus has always existed but not always in human form.



Post #139
Originally Posted by jfrog
Was God always with us as the man Jesus Christ?

No there was a time when Jesus existed but had not human body.

[shazeep]

You have not found Christ you have made Him one of many ways when He said that he is the only way. Wht you found was the tired old falsehood of universalism.perhaps--but i will trust that the Spirit will correct me. I do not doubt your desire to find a better conception of Christ, i hope you understand; i do suspect (and condemn) your model. heck, even Eastern Christianity does. Even Ortho does--so we are all in disagreement then, on the semantics. perfect. Just what satan wants. @ 'Universalism,' i don't know; but i do know that all have sinned, and come short. While you might surely be ahead of me in some regards, spiritually, i merely mean to point out the (inevitable) corruption that will accompany any human model--even the model that introduced me to the concept of Christ; if not the Savior. If it works for you, and produces fruit, and the other indicators are where you want them to be--borders increasing, etc--then i would not dream of changing that. Perhaps not a jacket for you, but a blanket. Nothing wrong with that.

i believe that Christ is the only way. Luke--i just do not believe that we have exclusively defined Him, for mass consumption. Your model, wadr, requires that i accept your version of Christ; when i don't even accept my version in perpetuity. My relationship with Christ took a big jump a couple years ago, and i expect it to happen again. i pray the same for you. You have a great spirit!

[jfrog]

There was never a time when Jesus did not exist.

You said this trying to sound spiritual after I said Jews have the same god now that they had before Jesus.

Obviously I was speaking on the man Jesus Christ... Maybe you should have answered directly the first time instead of trying to sidestep the issue.

Do Jews believe in the same god they believed in before the man Jesus Christ.

[Luke]

"You vill accept the rigid definitions that our masters and translators have indoctrinated us with, regardless of their spiritual significances." gotcha.

I accept the Bible.






yes, yes--these are all still completely, SPIRITUALLY true.
"When did we see you thirsty" tells me that these sheep never knew the words you have memorized; they knew the spirit. That is all that matters.
oh, a big amen. see that that is a literal copy of a spiritual model, and that mute people are allowed in also! :lol


How can it be true that Jesus is the only way and yet at the same time you say it is true that there are other ways as well these are contradictory and cannot both be true.




how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' the devil is in the details here. while i totally agree with your words, detectives are able to make the innocent confess, given enough time. see the relationship. you did not translate Scripture from the original, and even if you 'learn' the original language, you prolly still cannot think in it. at least question. seek. search. dig. we have internet now. everything we are taught by another man--me included--is wrong in some little regard.

Please explain your point in the underlined section.

I agree that we should question what we have been taught by man but I have no need to question God or His word.





Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny ...
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. ... Such people claim
they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. ...

Titus1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


This verse in no way says you cannot know God. This verse is talking about those who claim to know God but do not obey God and live abominable lives.




Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by ...
But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-(bam)

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again this never says you can't know God. It is the apostle questioning those who were once saved how they leave God for a lie.






Eccl 9:1 This, too, I carefully explored: Even though the actions of godly and wise people are in God's hands, no one knows whether God will show them favor. (ergo, you do not know God)

Eccl 9:1 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This does not even say you what posted. Atleast not in the KJV.






I'm looking for the Psalm (i thot it was), "Who can know God?" but maybe i imagined that one? Bible search can be so frustrating, lol. Yes, you know on some level that God exists. Better than nothing. A start, It is enough.

You can know God in a very really and personal way scripture never in anyway contradicts that.






John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

all perfect illustrations, imo. you have a view of what they mean, i have a view of what they mean; but Christ may have a different view, that is neither of ours. Nor the Sadducees, for sure.


If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right.

[Luke]

You said this trying to sound spiritual after I said Jews have the same god now that they had before Jesus.

Obviously I was speaking on the man Jesus Christ... Maybe you should have answered directly the first time instead of trying to sidestep the issue.

Do Jews believe in the same god they believed in before the man Jesus Christ.


No they according to the Bible rejected Him as well when they rejected Jesus:

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



I said that Jesus has always existed because this what the Bible specificly says not because I wanted to sound spiritual.

[Luke]

Shazeep I am curious about one thing. If you believe that there are many roads to heaven do you also believe that the holy book of these other ways are also equal to the Bible?

[jfrog]

No they according to the Bible rejected Him as well when they rejected Jesus:

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



I said that Jesus has always existed because this what the Bible specificly says not because I wanted to sound spiritual.

The bible says lots of things not relevant to this discussion

[Luke]

The bible says lots of things not relevant to this discussion

Are you saying that the passage i quoted was not relevant or that the Bible says Jesus always existed is not relevant?

[shazeep]

I accept the Bible.It works just fine--if you work it. Amen.

How can it be true that Jesus is the only way and yet at the same time you say it is true that there are other ways as well these are contradictory and cannot both be true.and yet the Bible, that you accept, is full of apparent contradictions, even for a believer. All those When did we see you thirsty, and give you a drink? people obviously never said any of those words which we hold so dear, and yet they are accepted.

Please explain your point in the underlined section.you "Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose."
me "how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' "

the connotation for our current usage of the word 'hope' is completely different from 'confident expectation,' its original intent. Same with Gen 1:2, which reads "The earth WAS void," when a better way to put it in the current vernacular is obviously "The earth BECAME void." The Bible is full of these. I do not mean to imply that It is wrong, just subject to interpretation (thereby revealing of premises). It is perfect, imo, just like that.

I agree that we should question what we have been taught by man but I have no need to question God or His word.i posit that every single jot and tittle you got was filtered through some guy with a pen or a mouth, and the spiritual concepts that they merely indicate cannot be learned until they are related to the real world in ones walk. You cannot teach someone to be spiritual. Or forgiving, apparently.

Titus1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This verse in no way says you cannot know God. This verse is talking about those who claim to know God but do not obey God and live abominable lives.yes, abominations abound. we are completely immersed in satan, in the world. what is an abomination, anyway? i see abominations in prescriptions, broken food from the grocery store, mortgages, locks, and people who are 'certified' pastors, yet behave as accusers. i could go on. maybe you see different ones.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again this never says you can't know God. It is the apostle questioning those who were once saved how they leave God for a lie.
then what were they saved from? why do you suppose that they were any less 'Christian' than you or I? This verse is talking about us. I think i chiefly posted it to highlight the "I know God" thing in Scripture really only means "I know that there is One God;" iow, you (all) have come to God's attention, just the slightest little bit.

Eccl 9:1 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This does not even say you what posted. Atleast not in the KJV.
Just as an aside, i would reply that you talk about disliking homosexuality, and then read a translation by a homosexual. But no matter. Do you have a mortgage, Luke?

You can know God in a very really and personal way scripture never in anyway contradicts that.i would agree that one may come to some knowledge of Christ, in a personal way; similar to a little child...so ok, yes, one may actually begin to vaguely grasp YHWH by the time they die, if they have dug deeply; but
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him tells me that i am prolly kidding myself there. Who can say they 'know God?' Don't we have some Scripture about "unapproachable?"

If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right.:lol how do you know? this is why we are in the shape we are in, imo; this "my way or else" stuff, disregarding the spiritual aspect. Here i am (apparently) disagreeing with you, and yet i believe that you are right, Luke. Now what?

[shazeep]

Shazeep I am curious about one thing. If you believe that there are many roads to heaven do you also believe that the holy book of these other ways are also equal to the Bible?Luke, i think the followers of those Books are the "When did we see you thirsty?" crowd. There is obviously only one road to heaven, that 9/10ths of the Law thing, "Love your neighbor," that i am sure can be translated into any language. If they are not against us, then they are for us. i personally would be able to tell immediately, when they are not pointing at me and accusing me of being a Christian. :lol

[shazeep]

(a little trap there fa ya, Luke...)

[Luke]

It works just fine--if you work it. Amen.
and yet the Bible, that you accept, is full of apparent contradictions, even for a believer. All those When did we see you thirsty, and give you a drink? people obviously never said any of those words which we hold so dear, and yet they are accepted.

I don't see these contradictions in the bible rather i see that man causes seeming contradictions by twisting scripture.

The bible never in the passage you are referencing even begins to hint to more than one way. If you read the entirerty of that passage you would find that it is pointing out the importance of obedience to God in that it says Not everyone that sayeth Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father. As it was God's plan to redeem the world through the death of Jesus this would mean that Jesus is the only way.



you "Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose."
me "how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' "

the connotation for our current usage of the word 'hope' is completely different from 'confident expectation,' its original intent. Same with Gen 1:2, which reads "The earth WAS void," when a better way to put it in the current vernacular is obviously "The earth BECAME void." The Bible is full of these. I do not mean to imply that It is wrong, just subject to interpretation (thereby revealing of premises). It is perfect, imo, just like that.

You are speaking of those who want to make the Bible say what they want it to.


i posit that every single jot and tittle you got was filtered through some guy with a pen or a mouth, and the spiritual concepts that they merely indicate cannot be learned until they are related to the real world in ones walk. You cannot teach someone to be spiritual. Or forgiving, apparently.
yes, abominations abound. we are completely immersed in satan, in the world. what is an abomination, anyway? i see abominations in prescriptions, broken food from the grocery store, mortgages, locks, and people who are 'certified' pastors, yet behave as accusers. i could go on. maybe you see different ones.

I try my best to take my beliefs striaght from the Bible. I do read other books but i always try to weed out what does not agree with scripture.


then what were they saved from? why do you suppose that they were any less 'Christian' than you or I? This verse is talking about us. I think i chiefly posted it to highlight the "I know God" thing in Scripture really only means "I know that there is One God;" iow, you (all) have come to God's attention, just the slightest little bit.


If they leave the gospel of Jesus they lose their salvation.





Just as an aside, i would reply that you talk about disliking homosexuality, and then read a translation by a homosexual. But no matter. Do you have a mortgage, Luke?

IF King James was a homosexual he did not do the translating also it was said that he was a homosexual by those who were his enemies. In other words it is not a fact.



i would agree that one may come to some knowledge of Christ, in a personal way; similar to a little child...so ok, yes, one may actually begin to vaguely grasp YHWH by the time they die, if they have dug deeply; but
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him tells me that i am prolly kidding myself there. Who can say they 'know God?' Don't we have some Scripture about "unapproachable?"

Know in the Bible are we said to be unable to know God.




:lol how do you know? this is why we are in the shape we are in, imo; this "my way or else" stuff, disregarding the spiritual aspect. Here i am (apparently) disagreeing with you, and yet i believe that you are right, Luke. Now what?

Do you believe in absolute truth?

[Luke]

Luke, i think the followers of those Books are the "When did we see you thirsty?" crowd. There is obviously only one road to heaven, that 9/10ths of the Law thing, "Love your neighbor," that i am sure can be translated into any language. If they are not against us, then they are for us. i personally would be able to tell immediately, when they are not pointing at me and accusing me of being a Christian. :lol

We should love our neighbor but this is never set forth as a means to heaven.

[shazeep]

You are speaking of those who want to make the Bible say what they want it to.
? hmm, i thought the "confident expectation" thing was pretty well accepted...and the "earth became void" one is evident from a 2 minute lexicon search. But perhaps you meant ol' K James, turning Passover into Easter, etc.

i think "Absolute Truth" is just another Name for God, personally; that we cannot really experience, except possibly in fleeting moments. But you neglected to tell me if you have a mortgage--why is that?--and i wanted to make a point there; that being that if you do, you are a slave to the man, and you cannot serve two masters. Those invested in the system must defend that system at all costs, or face cognitive dissonance, which no one wants to do. Now see that i don't care if you have a mortgage or not--please don't answer it--but that one who does is of necessity blinded in a certain sense. Just one example; i could put fwd others--pastors who sign pledges, people who imagine that they can serve God in some building they call 'church,' people who imagine that they can sign an oath of fealty, and 'serve' in the armed forces...i could tick pretty much everyone on this forum off, surely, in some regard. If you knew me, you could prolly do the same. i hope you see that i don't mean to contradict your posts, so much as show another reflection of them. There is One true thing, and many reflections. We get the reflections, here--"through a mirror, darkly." Peace to you.

[Luke]

? hmm, i thought the "confident expectation" thing was pretty well accepted...and the "earth became void" one is evident from a 2 minute lexicon search. But perhaps you meant ol' K James, turning Passover into Easter, etc.

i think "Absolute Truth" is just another Name for God, personally; that we cannot really experience, except possibly in fleeting moments.

How do you know that is true.

[shazeep]

We should love our neighbor but this is never set forth as a means to heaven.well, i just told that to the guy who said "when did we see you thirsty?" and he said, "ok."

[Luke]

well, i just told that to the guy who said "when did we see you thirsty?" and he said, "ok."

They were figurative unless you are talking about Jesus.

[jfrog]

They were figurative unless you are talking about Jesus.

Luke, do you believe that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled?

[shazeep]

We should love our neighbor but this is never set forth as a means to heaven.Um, what? 9/10ths of the Law? The Separation Parable? Luke, you have to be kidding me. Love your neighbor is the only way to heaven.

[shazeep]

How do you know that is true.i don't know for a fact that Absolute Truth is another of God's titles; hence the "I think;" but it certainly sounds to me like it is in His sole domain! When you asked me about it, i was just minded of humans who say "always" or "never." :lol

"If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right."


you prolly like your pizza piping hot; i happen to like it refrigerator cold. Who is right?

[shazeep]

They were figurative unless you are talking about Jesus.hmm, heaven and earth are full of them, no? i admit to figuratively asking one. But i think we have the crux of any of our disagreement, if you don't believe that LYN will make one righteous. I am surprised, tho.

[Luke]

i don't know for a fact that Absolute Truth is another of God's titles; hence the "I think;" but it certainly sounds to me like it is in His sole domain! When you asked me about it, i was just minded of humans who say "always" or "never." :lol

"If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right."


you prolly like your pizza piping hot; i happen to like it refrigerator cold. Who is right?

I like my pizza hot or cold though i will admit that fresh from the oven is the best imo. This illustration does fall short in that it is dealing with peoples preferences not facts. Two people may have two different favorite colors to the one maybe it is blue and to the other it is red. In the area of preference both can be right. However if these same to people look at a solid colored peice of paper and one says it is red while the other says it is white one of them is wrong or both of them are wrong but they cant both be right because they are dealing with definite things.

[shazeep]

yes, fair enough; but that illustration falls short, in that we are told that we cannot see what color the paper is; we see through a mirror, darkly, right? The biggest enemy may be 'certainty' in a human. You do not know; and i don't either. I'm not sure why this is--perhaps to highlight the need for love, and grace. Fresh from the oven is best for you.

[Luke]

Um, what? 9/10ths of the Law? The Separation Parable? Luke, you have to be kidding me. Love your neighbor is the only way to heaven.

Ah so you are literaly what those who stand for standards of righteousness and holiness are wrongly accused of being. You are a legalist one who seeks to be saved by keeping the law.


Lukem 28:46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.


Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


1 Peter 1:18 forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

[Luke]

Luke, do you believe that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled?

Yes but i also understand that the unsaved do not hunger or thirst for or after righteousness.

Romans 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others

[Luke]

yes, fair enough; but that illustration falls short, in that we are told that we cannot see what color the paper is; we see through a mirror, darkly, right? The biggest enemy may be 'certainty' in a human. You do not know; and i don't either. I'm not sure why this is--perhaps to highlight the need for love, and grace. Fresh from the oven is best for you.

We can and should know the specific way to heaven:

John 14: 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[shazeep]

Ah so you are literaly what those who stand for standards of righteousness and holiness are wrongly accused of being. You are a legalist one who seeks to be saved by keeping the law.


Lukem 28:46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.


Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


1 Peter 1:18 forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:ok, ty for your opinion here, and the regurgitation.

[Luke]

ok, ty for your opinion here, and the regurgitation.

I meant no offence or insult by that post rather it was a honest interpretation of the veiw of salvation through keeping the law.

[Antipas]

Luke, you are saying that the bible and quran disagree on many important points. We all agree. That doesn't translate into there being a different God. The pharisees were hypoctires that closed the kingdom of heaven up. Jesus said their father was Satan and yet they still worshipped the same God as Jesus.

What if every "religion" is divine truth as interpreted through human filters?

What if when we die and finally see God, we discover that every religion contained truth but also contained serious ethnocentric errors?

[Luke]

What if every "religion" is divine truth as interpreted through human filters?

What if when we die and finally see God, we discover that every religion contained truth but also contained serious ethnocentric errors?

What if all circles were really squares? Jesus said in no uncertain terms that He was the only way so either He is the only way or He is liar? You can decide which.

[Antipas]

What if all circles were really squares? Jesus said in no uncertain terms that He was the only way so either He is the only way or He is liar? You can decide which.

What if the one within Jesus, who is truly the only way... is the same one who was manifest in others?

[Luke]

What if the one within Jesus, who is truly the only way... is the same one who was manifest in others?

You are tryinh to separate Jesus' humanity from His diety this a false view. Jesus was God and man both at the same time. It was not that Jesus was indwelt by God rather He was and is God. He is the only way.

[Antipas]

You are tryinh to separate Jesus' humanity from His diety this a false view. Jesus was God and man both at the same time. It was not that Jesus was indwelt by God rather He was and is God. He is the only way.

My point is, wouldn't the man be subject to human limitations of both body and mind? As a result, wouldn't he speak as a man and offer an ethnocentric message as did Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Nanak, and others?

[Aquila]

You are tryinh to separate Jesus' humanity from His diety this a false view. Jesus was God and man both at the same time. It was not that Jesus was indwelt by God rather He was and is God. He is the only way.

Drawing distinction isn't necessarily drawing a "separation". The man, Jesus Christ, the Son of God was truly a human being fashioned in the express image of God's own person. So, while being a man, He reflects the very person of God. But the "Oneness" goes even deeper. Jesus described His oneness with the Father in this manner...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)[/QUOTE]

Here, the man Jesus Christ professes a "oneness" with the Father. Not "sameness". Jesus didn't say, "I, the Father, am one." Jesus said, "I AND my Father ARE one." The language demands two distinct ontological realities existing in a coinherent union. Deity and humanity united in a single being, the man Jesus Christ. This would mean that each shares in the other's ontological nature. Thus, by being manifest in Christ, the Father took upon Himself, and partook in, our humanity. God became a man. And by virtue of the Father being coinherently manifest in Him, Christ partook in the Father's nature, His divinity. That man was also God. They are... one.

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

Christ's desire was that we realize this coinherent oneness of being found only in Him. Notice, Jesus states that the Father is, "in me, and I in him". Jesus didn't say, "The Father is me, and I him." This is a mutual indwelling, a sharing of natures, a union of being... oneness.

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

As stated before, not only does the man Jesus Christ reflect the very image of the Father's own person, He partakes (shares) in the Father's very being. Therefore, to see the man Jesus Christ is to also see the Father.

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

Here Jesus puts the previous points together. Phillip asked to see the Father and Jesus upbraids him, explaining that to see Him (the man Jesus Christ) is to also see the Father. In addition the man Christ Jesus reinforces the ontological reality of the coinherent union of being shared between Himself and the Father, stating, "I am in the Father, and the Father in me". Again, mutual indwelling. A union of being. A sharing and union of nature. Jesus then goes on to explain that it is not He who does the miraculous works, but rather it is, "the Father that DWELLETH IN ME."

If the true scope of this mutual "indwelling" is understood... one can properly understand how the Oneness between the Father and the Son allows each to partake in all that the other is. As a result it can be said that in Christ... God became a man... and that the man Jesus Christ was also God.

[Luke]

My point is, wouldn't the man be subject to human limitations of both body and mind? As a result, wouldn't he speak as a man and offer an ethnocentric message as did Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Nanak, and others?

He was also God at the same time He was man.

Are you saying He didn't mean what said or that there is a deeper meaning?

[jfrog]

Yes but i also understand that the unsaved do not hunger or thirst for or after righteousness.

Romans 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others

It worries me that you would make Jesus words meaningless.

Jesus said he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness would be filled. But nevermind that right? Because no one actually hungers and thirsts after righteousness anyways?

[Luke]

It worries me that you would make Jesus words meaningless.

Jesus said he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness would be filled. But nevermind that right? Because no one actually hungers and thirsts after righteousness anyways?

I guess i didn't deal with who that was to my bad. Sinful man does not hunger or thirst after righteousness (notice the scriptures that i already posted). However a saved individual would therefore to the individual who has been saved and thirst for more there is plenty. If this passage was directed toward the unsaved then you have a problem when you get to these verses:

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Sinners are not pure in heart nor are they righteous.

This is directed to those following Jesus not those who are not yet saved.

[shazeep]

I meant no offence or insult by that post rather it was a honest interpretation of the veiw of salvation through keeping the law.ha ok, i was being evil; and i have no excuse! :lol but i'm not getting why you think that practicing love, and thereby grace, as a means to salvation might be interpreted as keeping the law?

[shazeep]

You are tryinh to separate Jesus' humanity from His diety this a false view. Jesus was God and man both at the same time. It was not that Jesus was indwelt by God rather He was and is God. He is the only way.Amen--as is Melchezidek--to stretch the point just a little. Wadr, you respect Christ the man, but not Christ the Spirit with this, iow.

[shazeep]

What if all circles were really squares? Jesus said in no uncertain terms that He was the only way so either He is the only way or He is liar? You can decide which.ah, now you have found a condition, imo, in which neither is true...hmm.

[Luke]

ha ok, i was being evil; and i have no excuse! :lol but i'm not getting why you think that practicing love, and thereby grace, as a means to salvation might be interpreted as keeping the law?

I may have read to much into this part of your previous post:

Um, what? 9/10ths of the Law? The Separation Parable? Luke, you have to be kidding me. Love your neighbor is the only way to heaven.

My apologies i guess i misunderstood.

[jfrog]

I guess i didn't deal with who that was to my bad. Sinful man does not hunger or thirst after righteousness (notice the scriptures that i already posted). However a saved individual would therefore to the individual who has been saved and thirst for more there is plenty. If this passage was directed toward the unsaved then you have a problem when you get to these verses:

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Sinners are not pure in heart nor are they righteous.

This is directed to those following Jesus not those who are not yet saved.

And there it is again. You are limiting Jesus own words to such an extent they don't mean anything anymore.

[Luke]

Amen--as is Melchezidek--to stretch the point just a little. Wadr, you respect Christ the man, but not Christ the Spirit with this, iow.

I don't get the Melchezicek reference?

I respect and worship Jesus as a whole. He was 100% God and 100% man no more and no less the one than the other rather He was entirerly God and entirerly man at the same time.

[Luke]

And there it is again. You are limiting Jesus own words to such an extent they don't mean anything anymore.

Can a man be both unrighteous and righteous at the same time? Can a man be both pure and impure at the same time? Can a man be a of the kingdom of darkness and of the Kingdom of God at the same time? In order for Jesus to have been directing those comments to sinners and not as instruction to believers all of the above contradictions must be possible and true.

[shazeep]

hmm, the 'simmers v saved' distinction might be getting in the way...And there it is again. You are limiting Jesus own words to such an extent they don't mean anything anymore.wadr, i must agree. but we all have to come into more understanding in our own way.

[jfrog]

Can a man be both unrighteous and righteous at the same time? Can a man be both pure and impure at the same time? Can a man be a of the kingdom of darkness and of the Kingdom of God at the same time? In order for Jesus to have been directing those comments to sinners and not as instruction to believers all of the above contradictions must be possible and true.

It takes a sinner to hunger and thirst after righteousness. The righteous have already ate and drank from that table and no lobger hunger and thirst for they have been filled.

[Luke]

It takes a sinner to hunger and thirst after righteousness. The righteous have already ate and drank from that table and no lobger hunger and thirst for they have been filled.

Have you ever ate ice cream till you were full and wanted no more then went back the day or so because you liked it so much you now were hungry for more?

Also according to the Bible sinners want to sin they do not want to be righteous:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others


Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

4 The ungodly are not so:

[jfrog]

Have you ever ate ice cream till you were full and wanted no more then went back the day or so because you liked it so much you now were hungry for more?

Also according to the Bible sinners want to sin they do not want to be righteous:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others


Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

4 The ungodly are not so:

When Jesus said those that hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled do you really think he meant they would only be filled for a few days and then would have to come back for more?

By the way if sinners only want to sin and do not want to be righteous then Jesus' death was in vain for we all are sinners and not one is righteous nor wants to be righteous. Tell me his death wasn't in vain and stop trying so hard to be right and think about the implications of the things you are saying.

[Luke]

When Jesus said those that hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled do you really think he meant they would only be filled for a few days and then would have to come back for more?

I never said that we were only full for a few days (implying that we run out and have to come get filled up again). What i was saying is that our ice cream bowl gets bigger and bigger so is isnt that we run out as much as it is that our appetite grows and we want more and more.




By the way if sinners only want to sin and do not want to be righteous then Jesus' death was in vain for we all are sinners and not one is righteous nor wants to be righteous. Tell me his death wasn't in vain and stop trying so hard to be right and think about the implications of the things you are saying.

His death was not in vain.

If you are saved then WERE a sinner but after salvation you are not a sinner any longer.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Col 1:13 who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

[jfrog]

I never said that we were only full for a few days (implying that we run out and have to come get filled up again). What i was saying is that our ice cream bowl gets bigger and bigger so is isnt that we run out as much as it is that our appetite grows and we want more and more.






His death was not in vain.

...

Have you ever ate ice cream till you were full and wanted no more then went back the day or so because you liked it so much you now were hungry for more?

...

Really Luke? It seems you twist your own words as much as the twist the words of Jesus.

But all hope is not lost. I'm glad you admit Jesus death was not in vain. So I have a question... If I can show you one sinner that hungered and thirsted after righteousness that was filled will you denounce your previous claims that sinners never hunger and thirst for righteousness?

[shazeep]

It takes a sinner to hunger and thirst after righteousness. The righteous have already ate and drank from that table and no lobger hunger and thirst for they have been filled.dang nice.

[Luke]

Really Luke? It seems you twist your own words as much as the twist the words of Jesus.

But all hope is not lost. I'm glad you admit Jesus death was not in vain. So I have a question... If I can show you one sinner that hungered and thirsted after righteousness that was filled will you denounce your previous claims that sinners never hunger and thirst for righteousness?

Depends on context of passage and life.

[Walks_in_islam]

allah is not the name of the God of the Bible (which also happens to be my God)? allah was the name of one of three hundred and sixty idol gods worshipped in the Kaa'ba. To see that the God of the Bible and allah are not the same all one must do is ask three simple questions:

1. Was Jesus the Son of God?

2. Did Jesus die on the cross?

3. Was Isaac the Promised son to Abraham and Sarah?

Simpply compare their yes and no answers to the Bible and you will have your answer.

There is a beign who goes by the name allah that claims to be a god and is worshipped as a god but according to the Apostle Paul this bieng is a demon that will one day bow before Jesus and declare Him to be Lord!

Your ignorance is hanging in the wind (probably indicative of your spelling challenges ya?).

Perhaps you should call out the translators and revise (well re-re-re-revise) because Allah sure is the name for God in the Arabic bible (your bible translated into Arabic, not the Quran).

Why don't you pray to ELI as Jesus did? Is it because your God and Jesus' God are different? Your god is who ? Bank accounts? Nice suits? Full gun case and lots of ammo? A "holy" look with a smooth face, sideburns no lower than the middle of the ear, and hair not touching the collar? SUV wrapped around you and your family?

Bleh. Such a god is a god of no book

[Walks_in_islam]

Sorry Dordt, but this is so ridiculous. In this case, there sure are a bunch of Christian world leaders trashing the planet, and being the world's largest arms dealers. Please see that Muslim extremist is as oxymoronic as those. Where do you think those "Muslim extremists" got their guns from, huh?

This guy I think. My doesn't ole Rumsfield look young and healthy! Saddam appears to have his head still on. Musta been taken awhile back when they were selling "insecticide precursers" to ole Saddam to kick the Iranians back.

[Walks_in_islam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42oejmpkgw

Handshake and pledge of arms from a "christian" nation.

Who are the extremists here? This war kicked off and dragged on until only children were left to fight it. Supplied by arms pledged by the same man who hung the man who used them. <shakes head>

[shazeep]

ya...i would lol here, but it isn't over yet :(
presented to us as 'nation building" :lol it is just satan running rampant
there is nothing new under the sun.

"The Bible conference of Constantine may have preserved the unity of the Catholic Church but at the expense of Christianity. Those with a zeal for Bible Doctrine forgot the Love of God and became legalists. The issue of the deity of Christ had become the doctrine that turned the bishops of the Catholic Church into legalists. Those who disagreed were brow beaten into signing the Nicene creed. And those who rejected the creed were branded heretics and banished. Now, they were right about the deity of Christ, which is a very important doctrine of the Church; but what they did in the name of Christ was anything but Christian."
http://www.biblenews1.com/babylon/babylon7.html

another reflection

[Revelationist]

Might I add here while we are discussing Islam that during the crusades the Muslems protected the one God churches because they both believed in one God. This can be found in history.

[shazeep]

funny you mention that, i'm reading about it right now

"In the name of religion under the very nose of Christians, Satan took over the Church and used it to perpetrate all manner of evil. He proclaimed the Virgin Mary as the new Prostitute of Babylon. She was proclaimed the holy mother of God and worshipped by Christians. Idolatry was practiced in the worship of saints, relics, and crucifixes. Church treasuries were filled with money, the "root of all evil." The Divine Institution of Marriage was forbidden for priests. Children were taken from parents to be indoctrinated into the evil of Baal. The Roman Catholic Church murdered, pillaged, raped, ruined, and ruled in the name of religion. No other institution in the history of the world has perpetrated more evil than the Roman Catholic Church. It is the epitome of the Prostitute of Babylon. No greater example of the Prostitute of Babylon exists in human history..."
same link

gee, i wonder why Muhammad (PBUH) was so adamant about One God...

[Luke]

Your ignorance is hanging in the wind (probably indicative of your spelling challenges ya?).

Perhaps you should call out the translators and revise (well re-re-re-revise) because Allah sure is the name for God in the Arabic bible (your bible translated into Arabic, not the Quran).

Why don't you pray to ELI as Jesus did? Is it because your God and Jesus' God are different? Your god is who ? Bank accounts? Nice suits? Full gun case and lots of ammo? A "holy" look with a smooth face, sideburns no lower than the middle of the ear, and hair not touching the collar? SUV wrapped around you and your family?

Bleh. Such a god is a god of no book

As a muslim maybe you can offer some insight would you please answer these questions according to your beliefs?

1. Was Jesus the Son of God?

2. Did Jesus die on the cross?

3. Was Isaac not Ishmael the Promised son to Abraham and Sarah?

[shazeep]

do you not see that the correct words in your estimation are irrelevant, luke?
was not Ishmael blessed of God, and also made a great nation?

[Luke]

The Bible:

Matthew 3:17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

The quran

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!
—Qur’an 19:88

Those who believe that allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6).

allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91).

Jews say that Ezra is the son of allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of allah. May allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31).

The Bible

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout

The quran

That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, allah raised him up unto Himself; and allah is Exalted in Power, Wise- Q 4:157-158


How can both of these have been authored by the same God when they say the exact opposite of each other?

[shazeep]

i can tell you how; but first you must answer a question; if Isaac was the chosen, how could Ishmael also be "blessed of God?"

[Antipas]

He was also God at the same time He was man.

Are you saying He didn't mean what said or that there is a deeper meaning?

God is manifest in endless ways. God was manifest in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Mohammed, and many others. But these were all humanity. Each speaking and interpreting the message they were given through their own cultural and socio-religious contexts.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." The way, the truth, and the life was also revealed in others. They too showed a path that is the only way. The only way is God.

[Luke]

i can tell you how; but first you must answer a question; if Isaac was the chosen, how could Ishmael also be "blessed of God?"

The seems to give reasons why Ishmael was blessed of God but not the promised seed of Abraham.


Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

The first reason was because of his father's prayers.

The second reason was because of who his father was.

[Luke]

God is manifest in endless ways. God was manifest in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Mohammed, and many others. But these were all humanity. Each speaking and interpreting the message they were given through their own cultural and socio-religious contexts.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." The way, the truth, and the life was also revealed in others. They too showed a path that is the only way. The only way is God.

Jesus said HE was THE only way not A way.

The bolded sentence defies logic and is impossible to be true.

Notice that you used an indefinite article "a" and a definite "the" article to describe the same thing "way".

Indefinite articles refer to generic terms, while definite articles refre to specific terms.

You took one specific way and tried to make it generic but if it is generic it is no longer specific.

[shazeep]

...thus allowing legalists to reveal their premises, yes, yes. same as it ever was. Again, you honor the Man, and not the God with this; Muslims are just doing the opposite. Both are just religion, after all...
The seems to give reasons why Ishmael was blessed of God but not the promised seed of Abraham.


Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

The first reason was because of his father's prayers.

The second reason was because of who his father was.brilliant! or, close enough; your answers give possible 'why's, w/o really answering the 'how.' Ok, now see that the covenant was broken, and Israel was divorced...oh, and '12' is a special number...what else do we have 12 of? hmm

[shazeep]

:lol

[Luke]

...thus allowing legalists to reveal their premises, yes, yes. same as it ever was. Again, you honor the Man, and not the God with this; Muslims are just doing the opposite. Both are just religion, after all...
brilliant! or, close enough; your answers give possible 'why's, w/o really answering the 'how.' Ok, now see that the covenant was broken, and Israel was divorced...oh, and '12' is a special number...what else do we have 12 of? hmm

Then how was he blessed?

[Luke]

The Bible:

Matthew 3:17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

The quran

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!
—Qur’an 19:88

Those who believe that allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6).

allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91).

Jews say that Ezra is the son of allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of allah. May allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31).

The Bible

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout

The quran

That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, allah raised him up unto Himself; and allah is Exalted in Power, Wise- Q 4:157-158


How can both of these have been authored by the same God when they say the exact opposite of each other?

Shazeep i answered your question now your turn to do as you said and answer mine.

[shazeep]

i already just did; by pointing out that your opinion that they say 'the exact opposite of each other' is just that, an opinion; wadr. It may be read differently, by one who seeks to agree, rather than exclude. You may do what you will here, ok? I would not say that 'you are wrong.' I can only remark upon where you choose to be looking. I have witnessed the quiet Islam being practiced by most Muslims, every day; but of course that is not being shoved in your face, jammed down your throat 24/7. See what you will see. Peace to you.

[Revelationist]

As a muslim maybe you can offer some insight would you please answer these questions according to your beliefs?

1. Was Jesus the Son of God?

2. Did Jesus die on the cross?

3. Was Isaac not Ishmael the Promised son to Abraham and Sarah?

His answer to the first two questions will be the same answer you get from a Jew.

[Aquila]

Jesus said HE was THE only way not A way.

The bolded sentence defies logic and is impossible to be true.

Notice that you used an indefinite article "a" and a definite "the" article to describe the same thing "way".

Indefinite articles refer to generic terms, while definite articles refre to specific terms.

You took one specific way and tried to make it generic but if it is generic it is no longer specific.

:thumbsup

[Luke]

His answer to the first two questions will be the same answer you get from a Jew.

If you asked each group (jews and muslim) would they both point to specific passages in their holy book to prove their answer?

[Luke]

i already just did; by pointing out that your opinion that they say 'the exact opposite of each other' is just that, an opinion; wadr. It may be read differently, by one who seeks to agree, rather than exclude. You may do what you will here, ok? I would not say that 'you are wrong.' I can only remark upon where you choose to be looking. I have witnessed the quiet Islam being practiced by most Muslims, every day; but of course that is not being shoved in your face, jammed down your throat 24/7. See what you will see. Peace to you.

Just so i understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that when the Bible specificly calls Jesus the Son of God and that He died on the cross it is saying the same thing as the quran when it says that it is blasphemous and lies to say that God had a son and that Jesus was crucified?

Or are you saying that you don't think either say what i copied and pasted from them?

[shazeep]

i am saying that you are trying to get to this like a lawyer, and looking for the right words; when words will fail you. They already have--the Qur'an cannot be translated--it is said--and you cannot think in Arabic. This is only a recipe for disaster, what you are trying to do. You will inevitably find an answer, but cannot tell how it relates to the truth. It is easy to see that you already have (been provided) an answer in your heart, wadr-- "Muslims are my enemies;" when, if you were to actually ask the question, "Are Muslims my enemies?" the means of determining the answer would then follow from that. The cart has been put first; the camel is hamstrung.

There are no Muslims in the Vatican, Luke--it is the last place on earth any practicing Muslim would want to set foot.

[Luke]

i am saying that you are trying to get to this like a lawyer, and looking for the right words; when words will fail you. They already have--the Qur'an cannot be translated--it is said--and you cannot think in Arabic. This is only a recipe for disaster, what you are trying to do. You will inevitably find an answer, but cannot tell how it relates to the truth. It is easy to see that you already have (been provided) an answer in your heart, wadr-- "Muslims are my enemies;" when, if you were to actually ask the question, "Are Muslims my enemies?" the means of determining the answer would then follow from that. The cart has been put first; the camel is hamstrung. There are no Muslims in the Vatican, Luke.

Is that a yes or a no?

I do not veiw mslims as my enemies i do view their demon god my enemy. I also dont look to the vatican for my answer.