View Full Version : A Case for Modesty
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 10:20 PM
I'm in Elizabethtown, KY tonight on my way to Ohio. Watching cable news in my hotel room. I saw footage of the poor young lady who was kidnapped and murdered in Bro. Riggens hometown of Olathe, KS. Very, very sad, very, very tragic.
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest. First and foremost because modesty is pleasing to God. Second, there are a lot of really sick individuals in this world, even in small town America, and women do not need to wear ANYTHING that may draw attention to themselves from ogling eyes. At best it encourages unscrupulous men to gaze and lust. At worst it may gain the attention of a perverse individual who has decided to cross the line from pornographic fantasies to acting out the warped images in their minds.
I appreciate my modest wife! I fully intend to instill modesty principles into the hearts of my sons and daughter! Thank God for being a part of a holiness movement that has always stood for prudence and discretion in our women!
Scott Hutchinson
06-07-2007, 10:25 PM
While we might differ in how we draw our lines modesty is always the Bible order for Christian men and women.
If it ain't for sell don't advertise.
I'm in Elizabethtown, KY tonight on my way to Ohio. Watching cable news in my hotel room. I saw footage of the poor young lady who was kidnapped and murdered in Bro. Riggens hometown of Olathe, KS. Very, very sad, very, very tragic.
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest. First and foremost because modesty is pleasing to God. Second, there are a lot of really sick individuals in this world, even in small town America, and women do not need to wear ANYTHING that may draw attention to themselves from ogling eyes. At best it encourages unscrupulous men to gaze and lust. At worst it may gain the attention of a perverse individual who has decided to cross the line from pornographic fantasies to acting out the warped images in their minds.
I appreciate my modest wife! I fully intend to instill modesty principles into the hearts of my sons and daughter! Thank God for being a part of a holiness movement that has always stood for prudence and discretion in our women!
This thread is going to bite you hard!
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest.
Exactly what is ... speculation .... and I'm all for modesty.
CupCake
06-07-2007, 10:36 PM
I'm in Elizabethtown, KY tonight on my way to Ohio. Watching cable news in my hotel room. I saw footage of the poor young lady who was kidnapped and murdered in Bro. Riggens hometown of Olathe, KS. Very, very sad, very, very tragic.
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest. First and foremost because modesty is pleasing to God. Second, there are a lot of really sick individuals in this world, even in small town America, and women do not need to wear ANYTHING that may draw attention to themselves from ogling eyes. At best it encourages unscrupulous men to gaze and lust. At worst it may gain the attention of a perverse individual who has decided to cross the line from pornographic fantasies to acting out the warped images in their minds.
I appreciate my modest wife! I fully intend to instill modesty principles into the hearts of my sons and daughter! Thank God for being a part of a holiness movement that has always stood for prudence and discretion in our women!
I think the fact she was alone and young is what stood out about her. I know of a sister who's daughter was rape at 16, she was dress modest. This comes down to a sick mind, one who want to inflect pain, the victims for some reason caught their eye and stood out. This is a sad story indeed.
What we need to teach our daughter is this, never leave a shopping mall alone at night, go with a few girl friends or a guy friend, there is safety in numbers . Make sure your daughter understand they can ask for a male attendant or an officer working in a store or mall to see them out to their car day or night . I've done this many of times, they are always ready to help. Have their keys ready to unlock the door, don't park out in no where, don't park next to vans, park were it's well lighted up. Walk tall, look around be aware of their surroundings, make eye contact never look down keep head up. Make sure your daughters understand if they feel unsafe to call someone, even the police, whatever they do, don't leave the store alone, stay around people. If you feel your being followed in your car, drive straight to the police.
Did anyone catch DB was watching TV ... ????
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 10:43 PM
Exactly what is ... speculation .... and I'm all for modesty.
I'm specualting on what was going on in the mind of the murderer. Unless he gives a detailed account of how he went about selecting this young lady from any of the other potential victims he could've chosen to abduct, it guesswork that her attire had anything to do with it. The thought crossed my mind as I watched the newscast.
Right, DB is guilty of blaming the victim... he never watches TV, so he is ultra sensitive to skin and sees short sleeves and knees as an invitation for molestation and murder... That is the direction of this thread I fear.
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 10:45 PM
Did anyone catch DB was watching TV ... ????
I was hoping no one would be so sharp as to put two and two together. Thanks for exposing me, Dan! LOL!
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 10:47 PM
I think the fact she was alone and young is what stood out about her. I know of a sister who's daughter was rape at 16, she was dress modest. This comes down to a sick mind, one who want to inflect pain, the victims for some reason caught their eye and stood out. This is a sad story indeed.
What we need to teach our daughter is this, never leave a shopping mall alone at night, go with a few girl friends or a guy friend, there is safety in numbers . Make sure your daughter understand they can ask for a male attendant or an officer working in a store or mall to see them out to their car day or night . I've done this many of times, they are always ready to help. Have their keys ready to unlock the door, don't park out in no where, don't park next to vans, park were it's well lighted up. Walk tall, look around be aware of their surroundings, make eye contact never look down keep head up. Make sure your daughters understand if they feel unsafe to call someone, even the police, whatever they do, don't leave the store alone, stay around people. If you feel your being followed in your car, drive straight to the police.
What is scary is that she was there at 7 pm in broad daylight running an errand. The security camera caught the murderer forcing her into her vehicle.
The advice you present here, however is good for all women to take note of.
I'm specualting on what was going on in the mind of the murderer. Unless he gives a detailed account of how he went about selecting this young lady from any of the other potential victims he could've chosen to abduct, it guesswork that her attire had anything to do with it. The thought crossed my mind as I watched the newscast.
Then why entitle this thread "A Case for Modesty" ... why not entitle it The Musings of UltraCon Mentality???
I'm sure the parents of this young lady would LOOOOOOVVE to read this thread ....
CupCake
06-07-2007, 10:53 PM
What is scary is that she was there at 7 pm in broad daylight running an errand. The security camera caught the murderer forcing her into her vehicle.
The advice you present here, however is good for all women to take note of.
I and my daughters practice these things at all times, day or night. I once had a guy follow me in a car, many years ago when I was in my late 20's. after I left the store, he was bent over running behind my car. He jump into his car followed me, I drove straight to the police, it really scared me, I gave them his lic, he was wanted on a rape charge.
DA, would you concede that there is a possibility the killer was attracted by the females' attire? What if she was at the store with beachwear on?
I did not see the coverage (or lack of it), so i would give the Deacon the benefit of the doubt.
crakjak
06-07-2007, 10:59 PM
I and my daughters practice these things at all times, day or night. I once had a guy follow me in a car, many years ago when I was in my late W's. after I left the store, he was bent over running behind my car. He jump into his car followed me, I drove straight to the police, it really scared me, I gave them his lick, he was wanted on a rape charge.
These guys are demon possessed, it is not the girl's fault in the least. It is not the sex, it is primarily the violence to which they are addicted.
Unfortunately, terrible things happen in this fallen world. Not to worry, this world is temporary, and the whole creation will be redeemed.
DA, would you concede that there is a possibility the killer was attracted by the females' attire? What if she was at the store with beachwear on?
I did not see the coverage, so i would give the Deacon the benefit of the doubt.
Who knows??? I've heard of old ladies being raped ... and there is no mention of sexual assault in this murder ...
but what I do see is a predictability .... it's this kind of backwoods preaching that has been used to "scare" folks into conforming to a paradigm ... there is no cause and effect relationship .... even the writer admits to it ... but cleverly entitles this thread and weaves this tragic story ... into an emotional "I'm so glad we're not like her" diatribe.
CupCake
06-07-2007, 11:00 PM
I'm sure the parents of this young lady would LOOOOOOVVE to read this thread ....
This story is very sad, I think even if she was cloth head to toe this guy was looking for someone who fit a type, his type. If you ever looked into what a murder or rapist pick for victims they'll list something about the person stood out, they seemed shy withdrawn, etc. In other cases they'll pick someone with long hair, they can hold pen their victim down better, or wearing a dress or skirt, they can pull it over your head, muffle your screams, much easier for a rapist.
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 11:03 PM
Right, DB is guilty of blaming the victim... he never watches TV, so he is ultra sensitive to skin and sees short sleeves and knees as an invitation for molestation and murder... That is the direction of this thread I fear.
First of all I made it very clear that I was not blaming the victim and that there was no excuse for the murderers actions. I thought I made that crystal clear. I'm sorry I didn't for you.
Second, I don't make claims of never watching TV, so your incredulity is wasted.
Third, you must not have seen the video footage of this young lady or your sensibilities have been dulled. She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows.
Fourth, if you follow my posts at all, I am no off the edge right winger, but I am still believe in modesty and decorum. I would never allow my daughter to dress the way this young lady was attired under any circumstances.
Let me again make myself clear for the dull of understanding: THIS YOUNG LADY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED! IT WAS AN EVIL, WICKED AND DISGUSTING ACT! THE MURDERER DESERVES 100% OF THE BLAME! I believe this animal would have killed regardless of who it was. I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was.
It made me think about the value of modesty and its importance beyond just pleasing the Lord. If I were her parents I would have to battle thoughts of "would this man have left my daughter alone had she be dressed more appropriately?"
Stop trying to make it sound like I am saying something that I am not.
First of all I made it very clear that I was not blaming the victim and that there was no excuse for the murderers actions. I thought I made that crystal clear. I'm sorry I didn't for you.
Second, I don't make claims of never watching TV, so your incredulity is wasted.
Third, you must not have seen the video footage of this young lady or your sensibilities have been dulled. She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows.
Fourth, if you follow my posts at all, I am no off the edge right winger, but I am still believe in modesty and decorum. I would never allow my daughter to dress the way this young lady was attired under any circumstances.
Let me again make myself clear for the dull of understanding: THIS YOUNG LADY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED! IT WAS AN EVIL, WICKED AND DISGUSTING ACT! THE MURDERER DESERVES 100% OF THE BLAME! I believe this animal would have killed regardless of who it was. I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was.
It made me think about the value of modesty and its importance beyond just pleasing the Lord. If I were her parents I would have to battle thoughts of "would this man have left my daughter alone had she be dressed more appropriately?"
Stop trying to make it sound like I am saying something that I am not.
It's open season on DB!!!
http://www.gamepolitics.com/images/elmer-fudd.gif
Who knows??? I've heard of old ladies being raped ... and there is no mention of sexual assault in this murder ...
but what I do see is a predictability .... it's this kind of backwoods preaching that has been used to "scare" folks into conforming to a paradigm ... there is no cause and effect relationship .... even the writer admits to it ... but cleverly entitles this thread and weaves this tragic story ... into an emotional "I'm so glad we're not like her" diatribe.
I would venture to say DB is as opposed to this as yourself.
First of all I made it very clear that I was not blaming the victim and that there was no excuse for the murderers actions. I thought I made that crystal clear. I'm sorry I didn't for you.
Second, I don't make claims of never watching TV, so your incredulity is wasted.
Third, you must not have seen the video footage of this young lady or your sensibilities have been dulled. She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows.
Fourth, if you follow my posts at all, I am no off the edge right winger, but I am still believe in modesty and decorum. I would never allow my daughter to dress the way this young lady was attired under any circumstances.
Let me again make myself clear for the dull of understanding: THIS YOUNG LADY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED! IT WAS AN EVIL, WICKED AND DISGUSTING ACT! THE MURDERER DESERVES 100% OF THE BLAME! I believe this animal would have killed regardless of who it was. I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was.
It made me think about the value of modesty and its importance beyond just pleasing the Lord. If I were her parents I would have to battle thoughts of "would this man have left my daughter alone had she be dressed more appropriately?"
Stop trying to make it sound like I am saying something that I am not.
It's all kewl my post was TIC - a taste of the retribution that was sure to come after you intial post.
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 11:10 PM
Then why entitle this thread "A Case for Modesty" ... why not entitle it The Musings of UltraCon Mentality???
Bro, you make my case for balance. Whereas NO ONE who even remotely knows me would ever paint me into an UC persona, I can have someone to the left of me accusing me of being off the charts conservative simply b/c I raise IMO some valid questions about modesty or the lack thereof and the potential influneces this may or may not have had in thsi particular case.
Relax. Breathe. There is more than one way of looking at something. Its a great revelation. The sooner you embrace this, the more peaceful life can be.
CupCake
06-07-2007, 11:10 PM
Where the problem comes in, is were one say if, if she didn't do or wore that or this. When this should not be the issues, no one has the right to do what this person did, no excuse should be made, he should be held fully accountable to the law for his actions.
Bro, you make my case for balance. Whereas NO ONE who even remotely knows me would ever paint me into an UC persona, I can have someone to the left of me accusing me of being off the charts conservative simply b/c I raise IMO some valid questions about modesty or the lack thereof and the potential influneces this may or may not have had in thsi particular case.
Relax. Breathe. There is more than one way of looking at something. Its a great revelation. The sooner you embrace this, the more peaceful life can be.
I see something in the bushes ... quick pass me my gun.
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 11:15 PM
I would venture to say DB is as opposed to this as yourself.
Thank you.
Thank you.
DB ... you presuppose a few things about my comments here ... I have a good feel for where you stand on issues .... these are valid questions in YOUR MIND ... not mine ... dat's all.
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 11:21 PM
It's all kewl my post was TIC - a taste of the retribution that was sure to come after you intial post.
Ah-so kemosabi. Forgive me for the defensiveness.
Funny me, I thought to myself, "Self, you know if you don't word this correctly, someone will accuse you of blaming the victim for her murder. So, self, your gonna have to state it very PLAINLY that you don't think this to be so." And so I thought I would make that clear. And then..........................
HURRICANE DAN hits the FAN!:surrender:doh:crazy:didimiss:grumpy:banghead :groan
Any one care to join??? ... DB has gone rabid.
http://progressives.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/elmer_fudd.jpg
DB, The reason you will always get the flak on this question you bring up is that people see about a million other posts and threads hanging on the question. They are not reading what you posted. They are reading, dresses and burkas - or bikinis and nudity... LOL!
DB, The reason you will always get the flak on this question you bring up is that people see about a million other posts and threads hanging on the question. They are not reading what you posted. They are reading, dresses and burkas - or bikinis and nudity... LOL!
No ... I'm reading ... something quite different ... I see a perpetuation of a systematic mindset that teaches us 4 +4 =10 .... it's not DB, I'm hunting ... but a mode of thinking ....
deacon blues
06-07-2007, 11:33 PM
That how I know I am a centrist. Its good to be safe in the middle!
That how I know I am a centrist. Its good to be safe in the middle!
TAKE A POSITION ... WILL YA???
deacon blues
06-08-2007, 05:44 AM
TAKE A POSITION ... WILL YA???
I am positioned between you and Epley!:lol
Sheltiedad
06-08-2007, 06:09 AM
Even if she was naked, that is not an invitation... I understand that you are not placing any blame on her, but wanted to make that clear...
If everyone else was covering up to their ankles and one young lady flashed her calves, the problem is still in the mind of the person who is obsessing over the skin. This person could have been raised in a strict christian home and that was why he noticed the girl was dressed immodestly (if indeed that she was dressed more immodestly than other people in the store). I remember growing up, they talked about NOT having sex so much that it just made you think about sex more... there were times where I got sick of hearing about it.
Also, if this girl were to have dressed more modestly, and the guy moved onto someone else, how is this other girl any more deserving of what he did?
You mention that people who did not notice her immodesty are probably "conditioned" to not notice it... if this guy is a rapist, wouldn't he be "conditioned" to not notice it as well?
He might have been drawn to her because she was cute... should girls not try to look cute so that the guy has to choose from ugly girls? :D
rgcraig
06-08-2007, 07:34 AM
DB,
I had the SAME thought. Not an excuse at all, but it did make me wonder if his choice was random by appearance or if there had been some history there with her.
Steve Epley
06-08-2007, 07:41 AM
I think DB has a point certainly no one can know what happens in the mind of a deranged sick mind. But to someone who is this evil all this flesh might be waving a red flag at a mad bull? I think the abundance of naked flesh has helped feed these sicko guys. Many times porn is found at their premises. Going through the grocery line you need blinders. A healthy saved man will avert his eyes but I can imagine a sicko getting all charged up into a frency by seeing all of this.
rgcraig
06-08-2007, 07:42 AM
Even if she was naked, that is not an invitation... I understand that you are not placing any blame on her, but wanted to make that clear...
If everyone else was covering up to their ankles and one young lady flashed her calves, the problem is still in the mind of the person who is obsessing over the skin. This person could have been raised in a strict christian home and that was why he noticed the girl was dressed immodestly (if indeed that she was dressed more immodestly than other people in the store). I remember growing up, they talked about NOT having sex so much that it just made you think about sex more... there were times where I got sick of hearing about it.
Also, if this girl were to have dressed more modestly, and the guy moved onto someone else, how is this other girl any more deserving of what he did?
You mention that people who did not notice her immodesty are probably "conditioned" to not notice it... if this guy is a rapist, wouldn't he be "conditioned" to not notice it as well?
He might have been drawn to her because she was cute... should girls not try to look cute so that the guy has to choose from ugly girls? :D
Excellent point too!
Sheltiedad
06-08-2007, 07:43 AM
I think DB has a point certainly no one can know what happens in the mind of a deranged sick mind. But to someone who is this evil all this flesh might be waving a red flag at a mad bull? I think the abundance of naked flesh has helped feed these sicko guys. Many times porn is found at their premises. Going through the grocery line you need blinders. A healthy saved man will avert his eyes but I can imagine a sicko getting all charged up into a frency by seeing all of this.
What happened to the theory that you get desensitized to immodesty and violence and cussing the more you view it... you can't have it both ways. lol.
I'm in Elizabethtown, KY tonight on my way to Ohio. Watching cable news in my hotel room. I saw footage of the poor young lady who was kidnapped and murdered in Bro. Riggens hometown of Olathe, KS. Very, very sad, very, very tragic.
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest. First and foremost because modesty is pleasing to God. Second, there are a lot of really sick individuals in this world, even in small town America, and women do not need to wear ANYTHING that may draw attention to themselves from ogling eyes. At best it encourages unscrupulous men to gaze and lust. At worst it may gain the attention of a perverse individual who has decided to cross the line from pornographic fantasies to acting out the warped images in their minds.
I appreciate my modest wife! I fully intend to instill modesty principles into the hearts of my sons and daughter! Thank God for being a part of a holiness movement that has always stood for prudence and discretion in our women!
DB,
I agree. Where I work, what you said would be almost anathema. I work in a domestic violence/sexual assault shelter. There is a great deal of emphasis placed on the perpetrator and it being the fault of the perpetrator. I totally agree! But the issue of modesty is not one of making the assault the girls fault, it is an issue of practicing safety. You are more likely to get pushed off a bridge if you are teetering on the edge and a crazy person walks by. That doesn't mean it was the person's fault for being pushed. It just means that teetering on the edge is dangerous.
Steve Epley
06-08-2007, 07:50 AM
What happened to the theory that you get desensitized to immodesty and violence and cussing the more you view it... you can't have it both ways. lol.
I think that is in the norm however these guys are NOT in the norm they are sickos and to fire them up is dangerous.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 09:23 AM
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest.
First of all I made it very clear that I was not blaming the victim and that there was no excuse for the murderers actions. I thought I made that crystal clear. I'm sorry I didn't for you.
Third, you must not have seen the video footage of this young lady or your sensibilities have been dulled. She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows.
Let me again make myself clear for the dull of understanding: THIS YOUNG LADY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED! IT WAS AN EVIL, WICKED AND DISGUSTING ACT! THE MURDERER DESERVES 100% OF THE BLAME! I believe this animal would have killed regardless of who it was. I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was.
Respectfully, this is sick. You did indeed suggest that it was her appearance that caused her abduction:
after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing
She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows
I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was
It's a tragic loss. The man would have killed another woman regardless. This girl was young and alone - that's why he took her. She was vulnerable. Had another girl been there, even an apostolic girl all dressed up in the latest holiness fashion, he would have done the same.
I get upset when a person is shot and killed, and immediately people question gun control laws and start accusing the gun companies - as though they themselves had pulled the trigger.
These posts remind me of that.
Instead of focusing on the murderer, we're picking apart the victims appearance and blaming that for the mans actions. Say you didn't, but it's there . . .
after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing
She was dressed very scantily exposing more than just knees and elbows
I was just curious to know if he selected her b/c he was drawn to her sensual dress. I would not be surprised if he was
:IAM
Steve Epley
06-08-2007, 09:32 AM
Respectfully, this is sick. You did indeed suggest that it was her appearance that caused her abduction:
It's a tragic loss. The man would have killed another woman regardless. This girl was young and alone - that's why he took her. She was vulnerable. Had another girl been there, even an apostolic girl all dressed up in the latest holiness fashion, he would have done the same.
I get upset when a person is shot and killed, and immediately people question gun control laws and start accusing the gun companies - as though they themselves had pulled the trigger.
These posts remind me of that.
Instead of focusing on the murderer, we're picking apart the victims appearance and blaming that for the mans actions. Say you didn't, but it's there . . .
:IAM
No accusation is being made against the girl he was only stating the obvious.
The guy was a sicko pervert but are you saying that her appearance might not have triggered something in his sick mind?
Sheltiedad
06-08-2007, 09:36 AM
No accusation is being made against the girl he was only stating the obvious.
The guy was a sicko pervert but are you saying that her appearance might not have triggered something in his sick mind?
What if a sicko pervert kills people for wearing yellow ribbons in their hair... do people stop wearing yellow ribbons?
Steve Epley
06-08-2007, 09:39 AM
What if a sicko pervert kills people for wearing yellow ribbons in their hair... do people stop wearing yellow ribbons?
I know what you are saying is so some are so perverted and deranged yes they kill just to kill. But honestly are you saying it is not possible that naked flesh could NOT have triggered this sicko?
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 09:41 AM
No accusation is being made against the girl he was only stating the obvious.
The suggestion was made more than once that her appearance could have been what caused it. It's like saying gun manufacturers could be liable for a shooting. Dumb.
The guy was a sicko pervert but are you saying that her appearance might not have triggered something in his sick mind?
She was young (18) and alone. She was vulnerable and, though I haven't seen her to know what her body type is, he probably felt she was weak and able to be abducted.
I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a clue what she was wearing, or wasn't motivated by her appearance.
My worldly friends like to poke fun of apostolics because they're so taken with appearance. To them, it's nothing to see miniskirts, short-shorts, tank tops or whatever. It's normal to see girls dressed like that. That's all they've known by being in the clubs and not growing up in a conservative environment. Yet to an apostolic it's the opposite.
It's ignorant to question appearance when the guy probably passed up many other scantily clad girls on the way to abduct his victim.
It wasn't her physical appearance and dress . . . it was her vulnerability that attracted him.
I know what you are saying is so some are so perverted and deranged yes they kill just to kill. But honestly are you saying it is not possible that naked flesh could NOT have triggered this sicko?
Pure speculation ... again no evidence of sexual assault to collaborate this ... I still think it's CONVENIENTLY grasping at straws to justify a paradigm.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 09:44 AM
DA - have you noticed how apostolics are so taken with the way worldly girls dress . . . even more so than worldly guys?
Ronzo
06-08-2007, 09:45 AM
DA - have you noticed how apostolics are so taken with the way worldly girls dress . . . even more so than worldly guys?
oops...
DA - have you noticed how apostolics are so taken with the way worldly girls dress . . . even more so than worldly guys?
Methinks some are constantly thinking about the flesh ... CR, YOU HAVE FRIENDS IN THE WORLD????
Chewy
06-08-2007, 09:46 AM
Pure speculation ... again no evidence of sexual assault to collaborate this ... I still think it's CONVENIENTLY grasping at straws to justify a paradigm.
I don't think the presence of a couple of layers of blended cotton and polyester down past the knees or on the shoulders was ever a good enough shield or armor to protect against someone who is evil and has demonic intent.
Chewy
06-08-2007, 09:46 AM
DA - have you noticed how apostolics are so taken with the way worldly girls dress . . . even more so than worldly guys?
What do you mean "taken with"??
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 09:49 AM
Methinks some are constantly thinking about the flesh ... CR, YOU HAVE FRIENDS IN THE WORLD????
:sshhh
Crakjak was right ... guys like this get off on VIOLENCE ...
Murder suspect's likely MySpace page sends chills
OLATHE, Kansas (AP) -- He calls himself "Jack" and considers himself a "Sweet Troubled Soul" on his MySpace page. His interests include "eating small children and harming small animals."
The page appears to belong to Edwin R. Hall, the man accused of kidnapping 18-year-old Kelsey Smith and killing her, lending disturbing significance to the bizarre claims in light of the charges against him.
Hall was charged Thursday with first-degree murder in Smith's death and aggravated kidnapping for her abduction Saturday from a Target store parking lot. His bond was set at $5 million.
Only the name "Jack," which Hall is known by to neighbors, is used on the MySpace page, and the picture posted strongly resembles the 26-year-old. The person on the MySpace page also uses the same age and location as Hall, and a person with the same name as his wife, Aletha, has a page linked to "Jack's." (Watch disturbing details of MySpace page (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/law/2007/06/08/lavandera.ks.murder.update.kmbc','2009/06/07');) http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/main/icon_video.gif (javascript:cnnVideo('play','javascript:cnnVideo(' play','/video/law/2007/06/08/lavandera.ks.murder.update.kmbc','2009/06/07');','2007/06/08');))
In a photo on the page, the man is posing with a young boy. Neighbors said Hall and his wife have a 4-year-old son.
It was Hall's neighbors who told police he resembled the man they were looking for.
Cameron Migues, 30, said he and his wife laughed when they noticed a similarity between Hall and the man pictured in a surveillance video that police were using to solicit leads in the abduction.
But then a video of the truck was released, and "we put two and two together," said Migues, who called a police hot line Wednesday morning.
Hall was being held at the Johnson County jail and appeared in court via a video feed looking tired and downcast. He spoke briefly, waiving reading of the charges until he could hire his own attorney. His next appearance was scheduled for June 14.
If convicted, he faces a minimum sentence of 25 years to life in prison for the murder charge and more than 12 years for aggravated kidnapping, Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline said.
Kline said it was unclear whether the case would be tried in state or federal court but that the death penalty would be possible either way.
It is a federal offense to cross state lines while committing a kidnapping resulting in a death. Authorities have not said how or where Smith was killed. (Map (javascript:CNN_openPopup('/interactive/us/0706/popup.kansas.teen/frameset.exclude.html','770x576','toolbar=no,locat ion=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scrollb ars=no,resizable=no,width=770,height=576');))
"If we believe the crime is severe enough, and we do in this case, we will go to the jurisdiction that provides the most severe penalty," Kline said. "The discussions continue almost around the clock."
Detectives talked to Hall shortly after Smith's body was found Wednesday in a wooded area in Missouri.
Authorities have declined to offer a motive but say there is no evidence that Smith and Hall knew each other.
Neighbor Harold Barry, 50, said he was surprised when he heard Hall had been arrested. Hall recently helped him repair his pickup truck, he said.
"If I can go see him, I will see if I can help him out," said Barry, who added that Hall seemed especially close to his son.
"He loved his son his so much," Barry said. "He had his small kid in that truck every time I saw him."
Smith had been missing since Saturday night, when she went to a Target store in the Kansas City suburb of Overland Park to buy a gift for her boyfriend.
Surveillance video showed her being forced into her car around 7:10 p.m., and the car drove off. It was found in a nearby mall parking lot about two hours later.
Ronzo
06-08-2007, 09:51 AM
It's power... not sex that drives these kinds of nutjobs...
She was a victim of opportunity.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 09:51 AM
What do you mean "taken with"??
Obsessed with... Mesmerized by...
Maybe we should retitle this thread "A Case for Power"
His favorite movie is Strangeland about a schizophrenic serial killer who picks up teenage victims and kills them.
Chewy
06-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Obsessed with... Mesmerized by...
To what end, in admiration, in desire, or in contempt?
Jack Shephard
06-08-2007, 10:01 AM
I highly doubt that the modesty had anything to do with this. I mean sure she may have been seductively dressed, but most of these type of things don't just come into a persons mind at that moment. Usually they plan it ahead or there is some sexual frustration in their life somewhere else and they see a hot girl and there you go. Modesty is not the key to everything, but I agree that it is a fair question. We will see what the outcome is.
Steadfast
06-08-2007, 10:04 AM
I'm in Elizabethtown, KY tonight on my way to Ohio. Watching cable news in my hotel room. I saw footage of the poor young lady who was kidnapped and murdered in Bro. Riggens hometown of Olathe, KS. Very, very sad, very, very tragic.
In no way is this young lady's murder ever justified under any circumstances, but I could not help but notice what this young lady was wearing in the security video from the Target store where she was abducted. The despicable young man who has been arrested for her murder was said to be suspected as a stalker. There will be no way of knowing this perhaps, unless this murderer confesses and describes in detail his mental processes, but after seeing her in short shorts and a revealing tank top I wondered if he selected her from the crowd because of all of the flesh she was exposing.
Please do not read this the wrong way! There is no excusing the actions of this evil person! No one deserves such a tragic end to their lives. This young man was looking for a victim and found it in this innocent young lady. My thinking was had this young lady been dressed more modestly, would the perpetrator have passed on her for another young lady.
Its all pure speculation, no one can say for sure, but it made me think how important it is for ladies to remain modest. First and foremost because modesty is pleasing to God. Second, there are a lot of really sick individuals in this world, even in small town America, and women do not need to wear ANYTHING that may draw attention to themselves from ogling eyes. At best it encourages unscrupulous men to gaze and lust. At worst it may gain the attention of a perverse individual who has decided to cross the line from pornographic fantasies to acting out the warped images in their minds.
I appreciate my modest wife! I fully intend to instill modesty principles into the hearts of my sons and daughter! Thank God for being a part of a holiness movement that has always stood for prudence and discretion in our women!
Fantastic post. Well thought out and, in my own opinion, on target. I, too, mourn the loss of that precious soul and don't want to appear 'callous' but I think there is MUCH merit in what Deacon says.
I think that sometimes we forget that God didn't just give us holiness and modesty to make us different; He did it to provide elements of provision, protection and purity. How narrow sighted have we become as an Apostolic movment to think that holiness and modesty serve no other purpose than to make us look different? God's intention was SO MUCH MORE than just 'can' and 'can't' and the sooner we get back to that understanding the better we'll be.
Surely our Godly reasoning should kick back in and help us see the basic principles of holiness and modesty include such things as Deacon Blues has said.
Brother, I applaud you. It really was a great post.
In speaking to a brother who is studying pastoral counseling, he told me recently, that when trying to assess what is behind a person's problems ...
one of the best questions to ask them is "What bothers you most about other people?" ...
many times, he said, whatever they answer is often what they are struggling w/ themselves .... and should be one of the first issues in addressing in subsequent counseling.
For example, if they answer, "I can't stand impatient people" ...they will most likely be impatient themselves ....
Psychologists call this defense mechanism ... projection ...
I'm not saying all holiness preachers are doing this ... but I've seen my share of them that were dealing w/ flesh issues ... and so their ministry focus was on "flesh"
People that abduct other people and kill them, like what happened in this case, choose their victims based on who they think is weak and most vulnerable to attack. Could her clothing have played a role in him finding her to be an easy target? Maybe. Did she get attacked for having shorts on? ABSOLUTELY NOT! This fella just saw her as an easy target.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 10:11 AM
In speaking to a brother who is studying pastoral counseling he told me recently that when trying to assess what is behind a person's problems ... one of the best questions to ask them is "What bothers you most about other people?" ... many times, he said, whatever they answer is often what they are struggling w/ themselves ....
For example, if they answer, "I can't stand impatient people" ...they will most likely be impatient themselves ....
Psychologists call this defense mechanism ... projection ...
I'm not saying all holiness preachers are doing this ... but I've seen my share of them that were dealing w/ flesh issues ... and so their focus was on "flesh"
Are you saying that ministers that preach a lot against immodest dress do so because they're secretly struggling with lust themselves!?!?!
Say it ain't so! :lol
Are you saying that ministers that preach a lot against immodest dress do so because they're secretly struggling with lust themselves!?!?!
Say it ain't so! :lol
some seek to standardize the limits they need in their own lives .... to apply to all ... when not all are struggling w/ the SAME STANDARD ISSUES OR STRUGGLES. Leaving no room for a Holy Ghost intervention ... the fence becomes the priority ....
Pragmatist
06-08-2007, 11:56 AM
I saw the video and right or wrong, I immediately wondered if her lack of clothing played a role. If nothing else, the thread should be titled "A Case for Modesty", because there are cameras at stores that could show your immodest apparel to the world.
CupCake
06-08-2007, 12:28 PM
Even if she was naked, that is not an invitation... I understand that you are not placing any blame on her, but wanted to make that clear...
If everyone else was covering up to their ankles and one young lady flashed her calves, the problem is still in the mind of the person who is obsessing over the skin. This person could have been raised in a strict christian home and that was why he noticed the girl was dressed immodestly (if indeed that she was dressed more immodestly than other people in the store). I remember growing up, they talked about NOT having sex so much that it just made you think about sex more... there were times where I got sick of hearing about it.
Also, if this girl were to have dressed more modestly, and the guy moved onto someone else, how is this other girl any more deserving of what he did?
You mention that people who did not notice her immodesty are probably "conditioned" to not notice it... if this guy is a rapist, wouldn't he be "conditioned" to not notice it as well?
He might have been drawn to her because she was cute... should girls not try to look cute so that the guy has to choose from ugly girls? :D
Agree~ Women in many parts of the world wear Burka and they still get rape.
As soon as our son could understand we as parents taught him, no means no. "no questing asked"! If a young lady say no, she means no, and we don't care how undress or naked or hot you may be, no is just that, nor do you have the right to invade another space, even if they are running around in the buff. Maybe more parents should sit down with son and make it very clear it's their responsibility to control themselves ! A victim is just that, no matter had unclad or clad they were, this evil person had no right to cross over and invade another person space!
At least place the blame were it belongs, on the perpetrator not it's victim !
crakjak
06-08-2007, 12:46 PM
I highly doubt that the modesty had anything to do with this. I mean sure she may have been seductively dressed, but most of these type of things don't just come into a persons mind at that moment. Usually they plan it ahead or there is some sexual frustration in their life somewhere else and they see a hot girl and there you go. Modesty is not the key to everything, but I agree that it is a fair question. We will see what the outcome is.
Allot of men are frustrated sexually, that's apart of this fallen world, however the vast majority do not kill and rape. I believe we should be modest in our dress, but that will not stop this type of behavior. The burka does not protect Muslim ladies from this same demonic behavior, may even inflame it.
Extreme dress codes do nothing against sexual fantasy and imagination, only hearts changed by submission to God and disciplined by the Word of God will evil be rooted out of the hearts of men.
Modesty comes from the word moderate or moderation, and scripture instructs all believers to be moderate (reasonable) in all we do.
CupCake
06-08-2007, 12:50 PM
The suggestion was made more than once that her appearance could have been what caused it. It's like saying gun manufacturers could be liable for a shooting. Dumb.
She was young (18) and alone. She was vulnerable and, though I haven't seen her to know what her body type is, he probably felt she was weak and able to be abducted.
I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a clue what she was wearing, or wasn't motivated by her appearance.
My worldly friends like to poke fun of apostolics because they're so taken with appearance. To them, it's nothing to see miniskirts, short-shorts, tank tops or whatever. It's normal to see girls dressed like that. That's all they've known by being in the clubs and not growing up in a conservative environment. Yet to an apostolic it's the opposite.
It's ignorant to question appearance when the guy probably passed up many other scantily clad girls on the way to abduct his victim.
It wasn't her physical appearance and dress . . . it was her vulnerability that attracted him.
chaotic_resolve~ My younger sister work for the LAPD, she does forensics, she has shared many cases with me and dress is hardly ever the cause, in most cases it can be something as simply as bushing your hair back with your finger behind your ear, something within the motion itself, or a smell or just the way you move, any of these things can be a trigger, something that set them off, then the need to relieve and follow through to get the thrill and pleasure they seek. When I saw the video tape for the first time on T.V I saw a young gal, who looked very carefree and her vulnerability is showing, that's what attracted him.
As to what she was wearing, I didn't notice!
Sacerdotal
06-08-2007, 01:52 PM
This thread has some of the most idiotic replies that I've seen on any forum!
I think some people hate bible principles so much that they will deny all truth to deny bible truth.
If you study serial killers you have to know that almost 100 percent of them say that their perversion started with pornography.
John Wayne Gacy
Ted Bundy
Jeff Dahmer
Look at more recent ones and they all say the same. It started with pornography and they fantasized their way to worse and worse.
Be honest and confess that pornography is only pornography due to a lack of modesty. Saying that dress and exposed flesh has nothing to do with some abductions is against everything honest. It may not have been a factor in this young females death but it is in many.
How far will people go? Denying known facts to deny bible themes is beyond strange. It's sad and pathetic.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 02:04 PM
This thread has some of the most idiotic replies that I've seen on any forum!
I think some people hate bible principles so much that they will deny all truth to deny bible truth.
If you study serial killers you have to know that almost 100 percent of them say that their perversion started with pornography.
John Wayne Gacy
Ted Bundy
Jeff Dahmer
Look at more recent ones and they all say the same. It started with pornography and they fantasized their way to worse and worse.
Be honest and confess that pornography is only pornography due to a lack of modesty. Saying that dress and exposed flesh has nothing to do with some abductions is against everything honest. It may not have been a factor in this young females death but it is in many.
How far will people go? Denying known facts to deny bible themes is beyond strange. It's sad and pathetic.
Show me a Biblical principle or theme that says if you're raped it's because you're immodestly dressed.
Bet you can't show me one.
Show me a Biblical principle or theme that says if you're raped it's because you're immodestly dressed.
Bet you can't show me one.
Oooh ... oooh ... I've got some biblical principles for Sacerdotal .... but that would equate to biblical truths ..... he may not be ready for.
Sacerdotal
06-08-2007, 02:23 PM
Show me a Biblical principle or theme that says if you're raped it's because you're immodestly dressed.
Bet you can't show me one.
If you try reading my post and you will see its not about biblical principle as much as a silly claim that immodesty does not have anything to do with abductions and serial killers.
I know the bibillcal principles I live by. Modesty is one of them. Its maybe not to an ultra con level but to a modest level for sure.
I think its absolute ignorance to make any effort to deny the principle of modesty by saying that immodesty doesn't affect perverts.
All of us except the most reprobate knows that modesty is a bible principle.
Nobody said that a bible said your raped if your immodestly dressed. Its a known fact that perversion is driven by seeing a lack of modesty.
If you try reading my post and you will see its not about biblical principle as much as a silly claim that immodesty does not have anything to do with abductions and serial killers.
I know the bibillcal principles I live by. Modesty is one of them. Its maybe not to an ultra con level but to a modest level for sure.
I think its absolute ignorance to make any effort to deny the principle of modesty by saying that immodesty doesn't affect perverts.
All of us except the most reprobate knows that modesty is a bible principle.
Nobody said that a bible said your raped if your immodestly dressed. Its a known fact that perversion is driven by seeing a lack of modesty.
Very silly POST .. if you have read mine .. you'd realize I don't discount it ... and state I'm all for modesty ... my good sir ... I'm against MANIPULATION.
Sacerdotal
06-08-2007, 02:27 PM
Oooh ... oooh ... I've got some biblical principles for Sacerdotal .... but that would equate to biblical truths ..... he may not be ready for.
You really give yourself more credit that you are due.
I am doing fine with the bible truths I have still.
Sacerdotal
06-08-2007, 02:28 PM
Very silly POST .. if you have read mine .. you'd realize I don't discount it ... and state I'm all for modesty ... my good sir ... I'm against MANIPULATION.
Then evidently I wasn't talking to you.
Again you give yourself more credit than you are due.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 02:29 PM
If you try reading my post and you will see its not about biblical principle as much as a silly claim that immodesty does not have anything to do with abductions and serial killers.
I know the bibillcal principles I live by. Modesty is one of them. Its maybe not to an ultra con level but to a modest level for sure.
I think its absolute ignorance to make any effort to deny the principle of modesty by saying that immodesty doesn't affect perverts.
All of us except the most reprobate knows that modesty is a bible principle.
Nobody said that a bible said your raped if your immodestly dressed. Its a known fact that perversion is driven by seeing a lack of modesty.
Neither has anyone stated that it doesn't play a factor. What was stated is that people needn't jump to conclusions over what this girl was wearing. And stop blaming the victims for what happened to them by suggesting it happened because of what they were wearing.
As has been mentioned, it could have been something completely different than dress that turned this guy onto her.
She was young. She was alone. She was vulnerable.
:IAM
Sacerdotal
06-08-2007, 02:36 PM
Neither has anyone stated that it doesn't play a factor. What was stated is that people needn't jump to conclusions over what this girl was wearing. And stop blaming the victims for what happened to them by suggesting it happened because of what they were wearing.
As has been mentioned, it could have been something completely different than dress that turned this guy onto her.
She was young. She was alone. She was vulnerable.
I could respond to this insult, but I've been told it's better not to get in a peeing contest with a skunk.
:IAM
Since I don't know what you do or don't think for the most part I can only assume that you feel like you fit in that class I called reprobate. From watching you post I can not see you really believing that modesty is not a bible principle. That would eliminate you by the way. But obviously you surely know more about what you believe than I do.
Skunk? Perhaps you have the same dillusion that everything is about you.
I still say immodesty has many things to do with pushing many perverts.
chaotic_resolve
06-08-2007, 02:37 PM
Since I don't know what you do or don't think for the most part I can only assume that you feel like you fit in that class I called reprobate. From watching you post I can not see you really believing that modesty is not a bible principle. That would eliminate you by the way. But obviously you surely know more about what you believe than I do.
Skunk? Perhaps you have the same dillusion that everything is about you.
I still say immodesty has many things to do with pushing many perverts.
I misunderstood the quote and edited the post. My apologies.
CupCake
06-08-2007, 06:46 PM
This thread has some of the most idiotic replies that I've seen on any forum!
I think some people hate bible principles so much that they will deny all truth to deny bible truth.
If you study serial killers you have to know that almost 100 percent of them say that their perversion started with pornography.
John Wayne Gacy
Ted Bundy
Jeff Dahmer
Look at more recent ones and they all say the same. It started with pornography and they fantasized their way to worse and worse.
Be honest and confess that pornography is only pornography due to a lack of modesty. Saying that dress and exposed flesh has nothing to do with some abductions is against everything honest. It may not have been a factor in this young females death but it is in many.
How far will people go? Denying known facts to deny bible themes is beyond strange. It's sad and pathetic.
How far will one go to give a sick mad man an out! WAKE UP!
CupCake
06-08-2007, 06:53 PM
You really give yourself more credit that you are due.
I am doing fine with the bible truths I have still.
Then give proof the bible say wearing modest clothes prevents such evil doings?
Hesetmefree238
06-08-2007, 09:37 PM
Then why entitle this thread "A Case for Modesty" ... why not entitle it The Musings of UltraCon Mentality???
C'mon Dan, this guy's not an ultracon. Just go back and read his past posts.
deacon blues
07-30-2007, 06:07 PM
bump
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