Did Jesus Spiritually Die?

[jfrog]

Did Jesus Spiritually die? I'm assuming this thought comes from where Jesus said My God why have you forsaken me. Why do you believe Jesus Spiritually died? Do you believe Jesus did not spiritually die and if so why?

[Praxeas]

Did Jesus Spiritually die? I'm assuming this thought comes from where Jesus said My God why have you forsaken me. Why do you believe Jesus Spiritually died? Do you believe Jesus did not spiritually die and if so why?
If Spiritual death means sinning and being separated from the Life of God? No.

[jfrog]

If Spiritual death means sinning and being separated from the Life of God? No.

What if it just means being separated from God?

[TGBTG]

I don't think I can say Jesus spiritually died. Jesus himself is the very definition of spiritual/eternal life.

Jn 1:4
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind

1 Jn 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

[votivesoul]

He was made to become sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.

He also tasted death for everyone.

I believe Christ had imputed to Him the sins of the world, and so, died as though lost, just like any sinner going on to Judgment without hope of eternal life in Heaven.

In this way, I believe He not only physically died, but became dead in all other ways, as well. His fully human corpse was separated from all that He knew and had experienced while alive, including His relationship with the Father.

To me, this is tantamount to a spiritual death. But then, He was resurrected from such a death, never to die again, which is different from a sinner dying a spiritual death, because if a person is dead spiritually when they die physically, they are goners for sure (i.e. eternally separated from God in torments).

[jfrog]

He was made to become sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.

He also tasted death for everyone.

I believe Christ had imputed to Him the sins of the world, and so, died as though lost, just like any sinner going on to Judgment without hope of eternal life in Heaven.

In this way, I believe He not only physically died, but became dead in all other ways, as well. His fully human corpse was separated from all that He knew and had experienced while alive, including His relationship with the Father.

To me, this is tantamount to a spiritual death. But then, He was resurrected from such a death, never to die again, which is different from a sinner dying a spiritual death, because if a person is dead spiritually when they die physically, they are goners for sure (i.e. eternally separated from God in torments).

By your own definitions a man is either spiritually alive or dead when he physically dies. Spiritual death at physical death = hell. Spiritual life at physical death = heaven.

So by your definition of spiritually dead it sounds as if Jesus would have had to be spiritually dead before physical death and not coinciding exactly with it.

Since Jesus was spiritually dead at the time of his physical death then he should have went to hell. He would have stayed there for 3 days until God physically resurrected him. (I suppose hell may be a future even after judgment for those that believe that way and so maybe Christ didn't have to go directly to hell in that view).

Interesting theory. I find it most difficult to imagine sinless Christ as being spiritually dead. Even with the whole worlds sins somehow being transferred to him as my sacrifice I don't see him as spiritually dead. I think he made such a good sacrifice because he was spiritually alive (without spot or blemish).

[Dante]

Deicide.

[Praxeas]

What if it just means being separated from God?
I don't see how Jesus being God could be separated from God

I also don't see how God would separate Christ from Himself. The Bible says Christ through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

[votivesoul]

By your own definitions a man is either spiritually alive or dead when he physically dies. Spiritual death at physical death = hell. Spiritual life at physical death = heaven.

Pretty much.

So by your definition of spiritually dead it sounds as if Jesus would have had to be spiritually dead before physical death and not coinciding exactly with it.

I don't think we can time it. I would use the word concurrent. As the wages of sin, which is death, was imputed to Him, His physical body gave way to death at the same time He was dying spiritually. In Christ, both were achieved at the same time.

Not so, however, of the average human. We were dead in trespasses, but were quickened or made alive by the Gospel. Jesus said the dead will hear His voice. The grave cannot prevail against the church.

So humans, upon the committal of their first sin, like Adam, are separated from God and die spiritually. If, upon faith, they receive the Holy Spirit, they are resurrected and made alive again spiritually (and for the first time since the innocence of childhood, I might add).

This makes humans already spiritually dead prior to physical death. In Adam all die, and Adam died spiritually centuries before he died physically.

Since Jesus was spiritually dead at the time of his physical death then he should have went to hell. He would have stayed there for 3 days until God physically resurrected him.

The Scripture indicates this is so. Not Lake of Fire hell, as in Gehenna, mind you, but Hades/Sheol.

Interesting theory. I find it most difficult to imagine sinless Christ as being spiritually dead.

It didn't happen until He died physically, if that helps?

[shazeep]

nice, VS. i see a reflection in "God backs away from us, so that we may grow out to Him" for some reason...

[jfrog]

Pretty much.



I don't think we can time it. I would use the word concurrent. As the wages of sin, which is death, was imputed to Him, His physical body gave way to death at the same time He was dying spiritually. In Christ, both were achieved at the same time.

Not so, however, of the average human. We were dead in trespasses, but were quickened or made alive by the Gospel. Jesus said the dead will hear His voice. The grave cannot prevail against the church.

So humans, upon the committal of their first sin, like Adam, are separated from God and die spiritually. If, upon faith, they receive the Holy Spirit, they are resurrected and made alive again spiritually (and for the first time since the innocence of childhood, I might add).

This makes humans already spiritually dead prior to physical death. In Adam all die, and Adam died spiritually centuries before he died physically.



The Scripture indicates this is so. Not Lake of Fire hell, as in Gehenna, mind you, but Hades/Sheol.



It didn't happen until He died physically, if that helps?

Ah. It was at the same time instead of before or after death. With spiritual death being a state I don't understand how anyone can enter it at the moment of their death.

But even more importantly I'm not sure I see the scriptural support of Jesus ever spiritually dying.

[jfrog]

I don't see how Jesus being God could be separated from God

I also don't see how God would separate Christ from Himself. The Bible says Christ through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Interesting. Perhaps we have found one thing a normal human can do that Jesus could not. Become separated from God. Very interesting.

If you wouldn't define spiritual death as separation from God then what would you define it as?

[Praxeas]

Interesting. Perhaps we have found one thing a normal human can do that Jesus could not. Become separated from God. Very interesting.

If you wouldn't define spiritual death as separation from God then what would you define it as?
Or Lie...
Did I say I would not define spiritual death as separation from God?

[votivesoul]

Ah. It was at the same time instead of before or after death. With spiritual death being a state I don't understand how anyone can enter it at the moment of their death.

But even more importantly I'm not sure I see the scriptural support of Jesus ever spiritually dying.

The Scriptural support is not found in a single verse that states "Jesus died spiritually".

Rather, it is built off of several verses synthesized, as follows:

From Ecclesiastes 9:5, we know that the dead know nothing. Jesus Christ was literally dead. There was a time in which Christ, as a dead corpse, knew nothing.

From Ecclesiastes 12:7, we know that upon death, the human spirit, i.e. the animating principle that makes one alive, goes back to the God who gave it.

When Christ died, His human spirit went back to God. There was no animating principle operating in Him. "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit", right? This isn't talking of the Holy Spirit, after all.

James 2:26 tells us that a human body without a spirit is dead. A dead body is dead in every way: physically, emotionally, mentally. There is no spirit, Holy or human, in a dead body/corpse.

From 2 Corinthians 5:21, we read that God made Christ to become sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Ezekiel 18:4 tells us that the soul that sins shall die. When the penalty or wages of the sins of the world were imparted to Christ through the substitutionary atonement, death was imparted to Him. But the death He experienced wasn't just physical, any more than the death Adam and really all humans experience in their soul is physical, when they sin against God.

The death occurs in the soul.

In Acts 2:31, Simon Peter tells us that Christ's soul (that which died in an imparted state of "lostness") was not left in hell (or Hades/Sheol, which is the abode of the dead, i.e. the place in which there is nothing alive).

Christ's soul was returned to His body at the Resurrection. What Simon Peter said is based off of Psalm 16:8-11,

8 I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Jesus could go to the cross in hope that His soon to be dead body would be raised from the dead by the power of God as promised by the Scriptures. Here in Psalm 16, we see the promise to the Messiah that His soul (which died as the wages of sin was imputed to it) was not left in the abode of the dead, i.e. as a dead soul. It was raised again and returned to the physical body of the Lord.

The spirit or animating principle of Christ that had gone back to God was returned to the Lord. And when that spirit and His flesh met again, a la Adam, a living (as opposed to dead) soul was created within the body (Genesis 2:7).

That living soul was the resurrected Messiah.

So we see that Christ died physically. That is a given. His physical death meant His mind and all that that encompasses (emotions, intellect, reason, will, and etc.) all died, too, to the point that as a dead man, Christ knew nothing.

The animating principle or pneuma or spirit within His mortal frame departed back to the God who gave it. There was no literal life in Christ at that point in time. His body without said spirit was fully and irrevocably dead.

But we see that Christ also died spiritually, in that His soul likewise died as though lost, when God imputed to Him the wages/penalty for sin; indeed God made Christ to become sin, the very missing of the mark that sin represents, a mark which is none other than God's own perfect standard of moral righteousness.

Further, Jesus taught us that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living only (Matthew 22:31-32). Jesus said that this is "touching the resurrection of the dead".

So guess what? For three days and nights (however long that actually means), until Christ was eventually raised from the dead, He, as a man, was separated from God, since God is not the God of the dead, of which Christ was a member.

This is the true horror of the crucifixion and what the Lord endured and suffered on our behalf. The Son and Incarnation of God, as a man, being obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, was separated from His heavenly Father as though one lost forever. The only hope Christ had at His death was His faith in the promise of His coming resurrection.

If, as a man, His faith was misplaced (which we know it was not), Jesus knew He was literally going to be separated from His Father for an eternity.

This is why we read in Hebrews 5:7 of Christ's tears and strong crying in which He hoped His Father would save Him from death. Knowing what was to come, Christ was terrified at the prospect of being separated from His Father, the Eternal Holy Spirit of God, for the first time in His life (since that Eternal Holy Spirit of God was incarnated and manifested in Him since conception).

This is how Christ tasted death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9). Jesus didn't experience the same physical death of all humans who have or will ever live. He tasted or experienced the spiritual death and separation that all people (being sinners) experienced up until He Himself was resurrected from the dead and subsequently, poured out the Holy Spirit (which grants spiritual, eternal life).

[jfrog]

Or Lie...
Did I say I would not define spiritual death as separation from God?

Maybe I misunderstood... You believe spiritual death is separation from God and that Jesus did never became separated from God and thus he never spiritually died?

[jfrog]

The Scriptural support is not found in a single verse that states "Jesus died spiritually".

Rather, it is built off of several verses synthesized, as follows:

From Ecclesiastes 9:5, we know that the dead know nothing. Jesus Christ was literally dead. There was a time in which Christ, as a dead corpse, knew nothing.

From Ecclesiastes 12:7, we know that upon death, the human spirit, i.e. the animating principle that makes one alive, goes back to the God who gave it.

When Christ died, His human spirit went back to God. There was no animating principle operating in Him. "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit", right? This isn't talking of the Holy Spirit, after all.

James 2:26 tells us that a human body without a spirit is dead. A dead body is dead in every way: physically, emotionally, mentally. There is no spirit, Holy or human, in a dead body/corpse.

From 2 Corinthians 5:21, we read that God made Christ to become sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Ezekiel 18:4 tells us that the soul that sins shall die. When the penalty or wages of the sins of the world were imparted to Christ through the substitutionary atonement, death was imparted to Him. But the death He experienced wasn't just physical, any more than the death Adam and really all humans experience in their soul is physical, when they sin against God.

.....


I have a problem with the above statement. The whole idea of substitutionary atonement is totally based on the concept of Jesus spiritually dying. To try and build the case for Jesus spiritually dying off substitutionary atonement kind of begs the question. Can a case for spiritual death be made without including the concept of substitionary atonement?

[votivesoul]

I have a problem with the above statement. The whole idea of substitutionary atonement is totally based on the concept of Jesus spiritually dying. To try and build the case for Jesus spiritually dying off substitutionary atonement kind of begs the question. Can a case for spiritual death be made without including the concept of substitionary atonement?

I wouldn't say it's begging the question, as a logical fallacy, but yes, the spirtual death of Messiah is, I think dependent upon the doctrine of substitionary atonement.

But if you don't believe the Scriptures regarding Christ's death being a substitution, I suppose, by default, you can't accept Christ dying spiritually.

2 Corinthians 5:21,

[Because] [God] hath made [Jesus] to be sin [on our behalf, in our place], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The words in brackets better represent the meaning of the Scripture. In some cases, they just help one's understanding. But in the case of [on our behalf, in our place], it's a more literal translation of the Greek preposition huper.

This verse proves an exchange, in which God substituted His Son in our place.

[jfrog]

I wouldn't say it's begging the question, as a logical fallacy, but yes, the spirtual death of Messiah is, I think dependent upon the doctrine of substitionary atonement.

But if you don't believe the Scriptures regarding Christ's death being a substitution, I suppose, by default, you can't accept Christ dying spiritually.

2 Corinthians 5:21,

[Because] [God] hath made [Jesus] to be sin [on our behalf, in our place], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The words in brackets better represent the meaning of the Scripture. In some cases, they just help one's understanding. But in the case of [on our behalf, in our place], it's a more literal translation of the Greek preposition huper.

This verse proves an exchange, in which God substituted His Son in our place.

You said, " the spirtual death of Messiah is, I think dependent upon the doctrine of substitionary atonement."

I want to add that the doctrine of substitionary atonement is also dependent on the spiritual death of the messiah. Without the spiritual death of the messiah there is no substitution to be had.

[Praxeas]

Maybe I misunderstood... You believe spiritual death is separation from God and that Jesus did never became separated from God and thus he never spiritually died?
Correct

[votivesoul]

I want to add that the doctrine of substitionary atonement is also dependent on the spiritual death of the messiah. Without the spiritual death of the messiah there is no substitution to be had.

To what end to you offer the above statement?

Certain aspects of Biblical doctrines are sine qua non with each other, but that doesn't make any statement regarding a doctrine petitio principii.

[jfrog]

To what end to you offer the above statement?

Certain aspects of Biblical doctrines are sine qua non with each other, but that doesn't make any statement regarding a doctrine petitio principii.

True enough. However, I am trying to establish a case for Jesus spiritual death independently of substitutionary atonement because if I were present a case for substitutionary atonement I would be begging the question to include Christ's spiritual death as part of my evidence if I had previously established the truth of his spiritual death by using substitionary atonement as my evidence.

Therein lies my claim of begging the question. It's not that you are wrong or illogical. It's that your reasoning on this matter does me little good when I am wanting a case for Jesus' spiritual death independent of substitutionary atonement so that I can use such evidence in a discussion on substitutionary atonement.

Further, I do believe that substitutionary atonement does imply that Jesus spiritually died. But since I do not believe in substitutionary atonement then such a argument is a moot point being that I disagree with it's premise.

[jfrog]

Correct

What makes you think Jesus never became separated from God?

[Praxeas]

What makes you think Jesus never became separated from God?I already told you

[jfrog]

I already told you

You are right. Sorry I had forgotten about that. If I am understanding you correctly you think that Jesus being God made it impossible for him to be separated from God? I think your Christology gives Jesus the ability to be separated from God as a man without any logical inconsistencies.

[votivesoul]

True enough. However, I am trying to establish a case for Jesus spiritual death independently of substitutionary atonement because if I were present a case for substitutionary atonement I would be begging the question to include Christ's spiritual death as part of my evidence if I had previously established the truth of his spiritual death by using substitionary atonement as my evidence.

Therein lies my claim of begging the question. It's not that you are wrong or illogical. It's that your reasoning on this matter does me little good when I am wanting a case for Jesus' spiritual death independent of substitutionary atonement so that I can use such evidence in a discussion on substitutionary atonement.

Further, I do believe that substitutionary atonement does imply that Jesus spiritually died. But since I do not believe in substitutionary atonement then such a argument is a moot point being that I disagree with it's premise.

I am not sure that you can successfully establish the spiritual death of Christ outside of the idea of substitutionary atonement.

Both are dependent upon the other, as indicated by 2 Corinthians 5:21, in that God made Christ to become sin in our place/stead, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.

Which makes we wonder, since you do not believe in a substitutionary atonement, then what do you make of 2 Corinthians 5:21?

Do you think the verse indicates a different or separate concept or do you not take the verse to be authoritative?

[jfrog]

I am not sure that you can successfully establish the spiritual death of Christ outside of the idea of substitutionary atonement.

Both are dependent upon the other, as indicated by 2 Corinthians 5:21, in that God made Christ to become sin in our place/stead, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.

Which makes we wonder, since you do not believe in a substitutionary atonement, then what do you make of 2 Corinthians 5:21?

Do you think the verse indicates a different or separate concept or do you not take the verse to be authoritative?

I would explain it as sacrificial atonement. Christ was the LAMB that takes away the sins of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The scripture portrays him as putting away sin by the sacrifice of himself. It doesn't say substitute. Instead it says sacrifice. I know of no religion where a sacrifice to god entails a substitution of the chicken, lamb or goat being killed in the believers place. Instead the sacrifice is killed and offered in order to appease god and deter his wrath.

[shazeep]

I know of no religion where a sacrifice to god entails a substitution of the chicken, lamb or goat being killed in the believers place.um, what?

[jfrog]

um, what?

I didn't stutter.

[shazeep]

I didn't stutter.well, metaphorically speaking, you kind of did

English Standard Version
Then he presented the people’s offering and took the goat of the sin offering that was for the people and killed it and offered it as a sin offering, like the first one.

[jfrog]

well, metaphorically speaking, you kind of did

English Standard Version
Then he presented the people’s offering and took the goat of the sin offering that was for the people and killed it and offered it as a sin offering, like the first one.

The goat didnt die in the peoples place.

[Praxeas]

You are right. Sorry I had forgotten about that. If I am understanding you correctly you think that Jesus being God made it impossible for him to be separated from God? I think your Christology gives Jesus the ability to be separated from God as a man without any logical inconsistencies.
He didn't make it impossible. It just is.

But more than that Jfrog, I quoted a verse that would make it biblically impossible


Distinction as a man, not separation. If they were separate you'd have two separate persons. One is God and One is Man.

[Aquila]

I believe that the moment our sin was laid on the man Jesus Christ, He experienced the separation and condemnation of one who is in a state of separation from God... the state of spiritual death. Now, this forsaken state wasn't eternal, because the sin He bore was not His own. However, He tasted spiritual death on our behalf. His physical death paid the price as stipulated in the Law, death. Again, having no sin of His own, the grave couldn't hold Him.

[Aquila]

He didn't make it impossible. It just is.

But more than that Jfrog, I quoted a verse that would make it biblically impossible


Distinction as a man, not separation. If they were separate you'd have two separate persons. One is God and One is Man.

Is anything impossible for the Lord? Remember, even the man Christ Jesus was the express image of God's own person. Therefore, Jesus continued to be the very person of God in full humanity while on the cross... though the Spirit had withdrawn. It was the first and only time that the man Jesus Christ had ever experienced separation from who He had also been since conception, the God. In the Passion of the man Jesus Christ, we see God fully withdrawing His divine self from His human self, that His human self might hang between Heaven and earth suffering death as a man to the fullest. There was no advantage. There was no spiritual reality beyond what we have today He could draw upon. He was as we are when we die... naked, bruised, ashamed, frightened... feeling absolutely forsaken. He bore it ALL.

[shazeep]

The goat didnt die in the peoples place.um, what?

[Abiding Now]

I don't see how Jesus being God could be separated from God

I also don't see how God would separate Christ from Himself. The Bible says Christ through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

I don't see how Jesus being God could be separated from God

The man Christ Jesus is the express image of God's own person. Therefore, even in just His humanity, He is a reflection of God Himself. Therefore, in this sense, He continues to be God... though the Spirit of God departed.

I also don't see how God would separate Christ from Himself. The Bible says Christ through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

The sins of the people were laid on that sacrifice so that by shedding it's blood, God's wrath and justice against sin might be appeased. God will not dwell in an unclean temple. We often speak of this concerning individuals... but imagine every sin that the human race has ever committed, is committing, and will commit being laid on a single man. Being the sacrifice means that He took upon Himself our condemnation and accursedness. He "became sin". He actually became sin itself in all it's fullness and totality. I can't see how the Spirit wouldn't depart... that the wrath of God might fall on Him, making Him our propitiation through His substitutional death.

With that in mind, imagine how Christ becoming sin allows for us to actually become the "Righteousness of God" in Him. God's infinite righteousness and holiness is imputed (attributed or ascribed) to us, and is received freely by faith. This is known as justification. In our justification we stand before God in sinless perfection. His sinless perfection. It's as though we never sinned, are not sinning, and never will sin. This condition of being justified allows for us to receive the very Holy Spirit that departed from the man Christ Jesus on the cross. Once we have received the Spirit, His life now flows through us, uniting us with Himself, allowing us to partake in the divine nature. This is regeneration. Continuing and growing in this spiritual reality is sanctification. In Sanctification we become more like Christ, Christlike. As we become more Christlike, we have the promise of glorification (being raised from the dead or changed so that we eternally bear the fullness of Christ's likeness, becoming like Him). He became like us on that cross... that we might become like Him in glory. It's all interconnected.

[jfrog]

um, what?

I didn't stutter.

[shazeep]

:lol well, metaphorically speaking, you kind of...hey, deja vu!


Btw very nice, Aquila.

[shazeep]

well, metaphorically speaking, you kind of did

English Standard Version
Then he presented the people’s offering and took the goat of the sin offering THAT WAS FOR THE PEOPLE and killed it and offered it as a sin offering, like the first one.please see capitals...unless we are suddenly having a 'substitution' arg again...

[Aquila]

:lol well, metaphorically speaking, you kind of...hey, deja vu!


Btw very nice, Aquila.

Amen... the message never changes. And it applies to all things. :)

[shazeep]

Amen... the message never changes. And it applies to all things. :)yup. scary part is, apparently we all have to get on the same page there--and i'm distinctly seeing a mass extinction (of us) event between now and whenever that happens...shoot, maybe two or three :lol

[Praxeas]

Is anything impossible for the Lord? Remember, even the man Christ Jesus was the express image of God's own person. Therefore, Jesus continued to be the very person of God in full humanity while on the cross... though the Spirit had withdrawn. It was the first and only time that the man Jesus Christ had ever experienced separation from who He had also been since conception, the God. In the Passion of the man Jesus Christ, we see God fully withdrawing His divine self from His human self, that His human self might hang between Heaven and earth suffering death as a man to the fullest. There was no advantage. There was no spiritual reality beyond what we have today He could draw upon. He was as we are when we die... naked, bruised, ashamed, frightened... feeling absolutely forsaken. He bore it ALL.

What does that have to do with my post?

[Reader]

Jfrog, I thought of you when I happened across this book on Amazon- http://www.amazon.com/The-spiritual-Death-Jesus-Investigation/dp/9004228241 -

The teaching of Kenyon, Hagin and Copeland that Jesus 'died spiritually' (JDS) is important because of the influence of these men, not least on Pentecostalism. JDS originated with Kenyon, and has been taught in the Word-faith movement by Hagin and Copeland, despite much criticism. It incorporates three elements: in this death, Jesus was separated from God; partook of a satanic nature; and was Satan's prey. This theological appraisal takes research far further than previous works, both in method and in scope. It concludes that adoption of JDS by Pentecostalism would be damaging in several respects, and thus draw the latter away from its moorings in traditional Christianity. Pentecostals and others are advised to reject the bulk of this teaching.

[jfrog]

Jfrog, I thought of you when I happened across this book on Amazon- http://www.amazon.com/The-spiritual-Death-Jesus-Investigation/dp/9004228241 -

Interesting. I'm not sure where the statement Jesus partook of a satanic nature came from. Sounds almost like he is building a strawman to fight against.

I dislike any strawman attacks on a doctrine so I dont think I would like the book. That being said I don't think the author of that book has really considered the importance of jesus' spiritual death to the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, which he most likely believes in.

Without Jesus' spiritual death substitionary atonement has no argument. Without Jesus spiritual death it cannot be truthfully said that Jesus died in our place. I don't think the author really understands the full implications of arguing against the doctrine he is arguing against. And again even if he did I do not agree with his methods.

I am firmly against the doctrine of Jesus spiritual death and substitutionary atonement. They go hand and hand. You can't have one without the other and you can't not have one without not having the other.

[Jason B]

Did Jesus Spiritually die? I'm assuming this thought comes from where Jesus said My God why have you forsaken me. Why do you believe Jesus Spiritually died? Do you believe Jesus did not spiritually die and if so why?

No.

I'm a bit shocked the question even necessitates a thread.

[Jason B]

I am firmly against the doctrine of Jesus spiritual death and substitutionary atonement. They go hand and hand. You can't have one without the other and you can't not have one without not having the other.

I haven't read the thread so forgive me if I'm rehashing what someone else has already said.

These two doctrines do not go hand in hand. Jesus certainly bore the wrath of God in our place on the cross. This does not necessitate spiritual death in any way.

[jfrog]

I haven't read the thread so forgive me if I'm rehashing what someone else has already said.

These two doctrines do not go hand in hand. Jesus certainly bore the wrath of God in our place on the cross. This does not necessitate spiritual death in any way.

Ummmmm.... if i was to expereince the wrath of God for my sins what would I experience?