Question?

[Steve Epley]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

[Sister Alvear]

I do....of couse you know that....

[Pressing-On]

I do. :thumbsup

[acjcpastor]

YUP

[kclee4jc]

me

And Holiness unto the Lord

[The Lemon]

I do..

[MawMaw]

I do. :)

[Wonder]

Yes I do :D

[Kevin Archer]

:)

[ILG]

I don't attend anywhere regularly. :)

[Luke]

I go to a holiness church that is pentecostal but not oneness.

[BrotherEastman]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

I do

[Ferd]

memememememememe!

[Ferd]

I go to a holiness church that is pentecostal but not oneness.

we need to work on that my brother! LOL

[Lafon]

:thumbsup

[Luke]

we need to work on that my brother! LOL

Lol well I did join here that has to count for something. :)

[shazeep]

:lol

[KeptByTheWord]

We have a home fellowship of former OP church goers. :)

[Carl]

No for the past year, after a lifetime.

[aegsm76]

Yep

[NotforSale]

I've been delivered! Finally took the "Box" off of my head! Religion is bondage.

[FlamingZword]

I've been delivered! Finally took the "Box" off of my head! Religion is bondage.

You are in bondage to Satan, hope you like your new Master. :heeheehee

[RJR]

I've been delivered! Finally took the "Box" off of my head! Religion is bondage.

2 Pet. 2:18-19

[NotforSale]

You are in bondage to Satan, hope you like your new Master. :heeheehee

I see you still wear the "Box". I understand completely! One day, you might be delivered from the bondage of Religion!

[Luke]

2 Pet. 2:18-19

Exact passage that I thought of as well.

[NotforSale]

Exact passage that I thought of as well.

Sad. Two more brainwashed victims of dogmatic and hateful Religion, where the self-righteous are justified by their own demise.

Go find a mirror!

[Luke]

Sad. Two more brainwashed victims of dogmatic and hateful Religion, where the self-righteous are justified by their own demise.

Go find a mirror!

You have a God given right just like everyone to be wrong.

[NotforSale]

You have a God given right just like everyone to be wrong.

Luke, we are ALL wrong. You just believe the lie that you are right.

[Luke]

Luke, we are ALL wrong. You just believe the lie that you are right.

I am glad that you admit you are wrong.

[ILG]

Luke, we are ALL wrong. You just believe the lie that you are right.

:thumbsup

[NotforSale]

I am glad that you admit you are wrong.

That's what it took to get the "Box" off of my head. Now it's your turn, unless you want to continue to walk in lies.

[Ferd]

A box built by God is a mansion.

I like mine.

[Luke]

That's what it took to get the "Box" off of my head. Now it's your turn, unless you want to continue to walk in lies.

Why would i leave the truth when you yourslef say your are wrong presently?

[NotforSale]

A box built by God is a mansion.

I like mine.

So, you deny yourself of riches in this life so you can become the rich man in the afterlife, with full barns or a mansion, in a place with nothing but gold, pearls, and other costly array, while the rest of humanity burns if flames forever?

Religion is a fallacy.

[NotforSale]

Why would i leave the truth when you yourslef say your are wrong presently?

I said, "We are ALL wrong". Typical Religious fanatic; you pick and choose scripture to appease your appetites.

[Ferd]

So, you deny yourself of riches in this life so you can become the rich man in the afterlife, with full barns or a mansion, in a place with nothing but gold, pearls, and other costly array, while the rest of humanity burns if flames forever?

Religion is a fallacy.

i dont recognize anything you just said. i am sad for you.

[Luke]

I said, "We are ALL wrong". Typical Religious fanatic; you pick and choose scripture to appease your appetites.

Who quoted scripture?

[NotforSale]

i dont recognize anything you just said. i am sad for you.

Because you are blind with Religion.

[NotforSale]

Who quoted scripture?

You pick and choose what I said. My statement was an allegory.

[NotforSale]

:thumbsup

:thumbsup

[Luke]

You pick and choose what I said. My statement was an allegory.

Seemed pretty straight forward to me unless you are now saying that everyone is wrong except you.

[Ferd]

Because you are blind with Religion.

whatever dude.

[FlamingZword]

I see you still wear the "Box". I understand completely! One day, you might be delivered from the bondage of Religion!

I simply pass on being delivered to go and eat back my lunch.
it is not my style.
2 Peter 2:22

[Michael The Disciple]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

An Apostolic Church would believe Jesus is the Father and the Son. No doubt. They would teach the Holy Spirit baptism as in Acts.

But really is that ALL that accounts for to be an Apostolic Church?

I would love to find a real Apostolic Church to attend. Sadly all that's available here are pre trib, immortal soul, standards of men type Churches.

[NotforSale]

Seemed pretty straight forward to me unless you are now saying that everyone is wrong except you.

I said we are ALL wrong. ALL, you know, everyone, including YOU and ME. But since you think your are right with your Religion, then I guess we're done unless you pull the "Box" off of your head to see who you really are, a deceived individual using Spectral Evidence to validate facts about outlandish ideas that make you better than those who disagree with you.

[FlamingZword]

I said we are ALL wrong. ALL, you know, everyone, including YOU and ME. But since you think your are right with your Religion, then I guess we're done unless you pull the "Box" off of your head to see who you really are, a deceived individual using Spectral Evidence to validate facts about outlandish ideas that make you better than those who disagree with you.

How is your lunch so far?
Tasty?

[Praxeas]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?
Wow...Im shocked! You left out "and don't allow facial hair" :heeheehee

I go to one of those churches you just mentioned Brother.

[Monterrey]

Wow...Im shocked! You left out "and don't allow facial hair" :heeheehee

I go to one of those churches you just mentioned Brother.

Bro Epley has facial hair, don't let him fool you. He just happens to shave it off when it gets over a certain length.

[Sean]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotforSale View Post
I've been delivered! Finally took the "Box" off of my head! Religion is bondage.

you are in bondage to satan, hope you like your new master. :heeheehee





oooooh!

[Praxeas]

me

And Holiness unto the Lord
Amen! Well except for when the world cup is on...

[Praxeas]

I do..

I do. :)
I now pronounce you Lemon and MawMaw :highfive

[Praxeas]

That's what it took to get the "Box" off of my head. Now it's your turn, unless you want to continue to walk in lies.
You talk about "hate" a lot but you seem to have some of it yourself. Maybe your box is just made of see through glass and you were not aware you still had a box..

[Praxeas]

Bro Epley has facial hair, don't let him fool you. He just happens to shave it off when it gets over a certain length.
lol

[Luke]

I said we are ALL wrong. ALL, you know, everyone, including YOU and ME. But since you think your are right with your Religion, then I guess we're done unless you pull the "Box" off of your head to see who you really are, a deceived individual using Spectral Evidence to validate facts about outlandish ideas that make you better than those who disagree with you.

Where I did claim to be better than anyone?

[KeptByTheWord]

My mother always said: When you point your finger at someone, remember there are two fingers pointing back at YOU....

[Rose]

Yes Sir.

[Praxeas]

My mother always said: When you point your finger at someone, remember there are two fingers pointing back at YOU....
????

Just 2?

[n david]

Yessir

[Light]

One God three stepper all the way.

[MissBrattified]

We do. We've attended the same UPCI church for the last 14 years; an ultra-con independent church for 4.5 years before that, and my Dad's church for most of my growing up years. He was UPCI and leaned conservative. My early childhood pastors included Nathaniel Lewis (MO), Carroll McGruder (MO) and Carl Ballestero (LA).

[shazeep]

I said we are ALL wrong. ALL, you know, everyone, including YOU and ME. But since you think your are right with your Religion, then I guess we're done unless you pull the "Box" off of your head to see who you really are, a deceived individual using Spectral Evidence to validate facts about outlandish ideas that make you better than those who disagree with you."Thank you, God, that I am like the rest of men." Merton

[KeptByTheWord]

????

Just 2?
Oops, lol... 3 :heeheehee

[votivesoul]

An Apostolic Church would believe Jesus is the Father and the Son. No doubt. They would teach the Holy Spirit baptism as in Acts.

But really is that ALL that accounts for to be an Apostolic Church?

I would love to find a real Apostolic Church to attend. Sadly all that's available here are pre trib, immortal soul, standards of men type Churches.

Hi, Brother

Are there no churches in which you could begin to attend and as a seasoned saint, help them to establish a more accurate doctrinal understanding in the areas you listed above?

Not as an infiltrator looking to cause division, but as a long time believer that has a sound handle on the truth?

Maybe there is a nearby assembly that needs your service and understanding of the Word in order to be perfected by the Lord?

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi, Brother

Are there no churches in which you could begin to attend and as a seasoned saint, help them to establish a more accurate doctrinal understanding in the areas you listed above?

Not as an infiltrator looking to cause division, but as a long time believer that has a sound handle on the truth?

Maybe there is a nearby assembly that needs your service and understanding of the Word in order to be perfected by the Lord?

Well Bro I certainly have been down that road. My experience showed that you ARE considered an infiltrator if you show up at Church and believe something different especially if you are serious about it.

If you believe something but tell them "it don't really matter" or "its not a salvation issue" perhaps you might have a chance. But then if that's ones attitude about truth then what good IS truth?

One might say well first prove yourself that you only seek the good of the body THEN MAYBE someday they will hear you out.

I was made an elder in an Apostolic Church back in 1981. More than once when I taught something in the Church meeting the Pastor came right up behind me and contradicted me.

When I was an elder in a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church before that things were fine for about a year. As long as I taught on holiness, loving Jesus general things I was loved and accepted. The Pastor told me up front he and I could talk about baptism in Jesus name but I was not to teach it or try to convert anyone to it.

Well in time Jesus showed me how important it was to him. I preached on it in Church one Sunday morning. I was told "you cant preach that here".

Other times this brought the same result. So yes I have been there done that. Part 1

[Michael The Disciple]

Bro Aaron, Since I believe you to be a serious man of God I will tell you where Im at right now. Several years ago we began attending an Apostolic Church in our town. We were desperate.

It was a typical Church. Pre trib, immortal soul, holidays, false standards. Come to Church for the meetings every time to prove to us who you are. Find a nice pew to sit on for amens.

We approached a couple there for fellowship outside of attending Church together. When we went to their house by and by the wife brought up the typical standards line and basically let us know we would not be accepted in fellowship unless we came around.

The Pastor himself never approached us about fellowship. Like so many I really think he feels "fellowship" is sitting on a pew listening to sermons!

Fast forward till now. There is an Assembly Of God Church down the road that is post trib. I visited it a bout 6 weeks ago. It was good to hear end time truth. They are of course Trins which I have preached against (the doctrine) for 30 years.

I am actually considering maybe making an attempt at going there. Yes again we are desperate for fellowship. Im pretty sure it would not work but something has got to give soon.

Part of me feels like in compromising I would have wasted most of my life. Why didn't I just compromise decades ago and saved myself a lot of strife? And yet when I think of listening to false doctrine being amened and taught to unsuspecting souls my heart cries out "contend for the faith once delivered to the saints"!

So anyway just wanted to let you know where Im at.

[Praxeas]

We do. We've attended the same UPCI church for the last 14 years; an ultra-con independent church for 4.5 years before that, and my Dad's church for most of my growing up years. He was UPCI and leaned conservative. My early childhood pastors included Nathaniel Lewis (MO), Carroll McGruder (MO) and Carl Ballestero (LA).

TELL US MORE!!!
:heeheehee

[votivesoul]

So anyway just wanted to let you know where Im at.

Thanks for the honest reply, Bro. I've never had to walk in such shoes so I can't really comment. Right now, I'm in a place where I am in agreement/disagreement about 80/20. I am considered an elder and trusted leader in the assembly and I do what I can for any soul in need.

But sometimes, I admit, that 20 percent I don't agree with gnaws at me. I can get pretty fired up. But then I remember patience and prayer. I've been praying fervently for things to change for about three years now and God has moved. Just when I want to give up and worry that I need to move along, God does something behind closed doors with the hearts of the pastors, and I hear amazing things.

Just recently one of the pastors had to be off work for 12 weeks due to a shoulder injury that required surgery. Two days before he went back to work, on a Wednesday night service, he told me God spoke to him at the altar call. He said God said "I broke you to fix you".

And indeed, such is true. This brother, one of the pastors, is leading the charge in a renewed understanding of God's love and grace, doctrines that haven't been preached in my church in years. It is causing the whole assembly to change.

Just recently, another of the pastors, who is considered the Senior Pastor, just preached how Jesus Christ is the only Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, and essentially took himself and his position down about 10 pegs in front of the whole congregation.

This is a big deal, because this pastor was trained by a monarchial bishop to be #1, no competitors. And I've been praying for so long, waiting for so long, for my church to adopt a plurality of elders approach to church polity, and by the grace of God, it is happening!

Granted, there are some potential deal breakers that will have to get dealt with but my point is only that with a whole lot of patience (usually more than any one man has a right to have) and a lot of hope and faith, perhaps God can use you to turn things around.

In any event, the Lord knows them that are His, and I am sure you belong to Him and that He knows it. May He grant you the desires of your heart. God bless.

[obriencp]

thanks for your posts Michael and Votive. I torn as well because I want the Lord to lead and guide so I am intentionally challenging my "doctrine" and currently going to a trin pentecostal church, AofG. After leaving the church i was raised in, visiting many different churches, and talking with different christians and ministers, I find that every church is different... even within the same organization. There may be slight differences in doctrine from church to church, saint to saint. Sometimes this is acceptable sometimes it's magnified to push some away. I don't agree with 100% of what is taught, but I don't know if one will ever agree 100%.

I was raised OP 3-stepper and although I still lean that way, I'm not as judgmental to those who embrace scriptures that prove otherwise.

[Sean]

Michael, I am pretty much in your shoes right now, but I think I would rather sit in a more conservative, oneness church, that a trin. church. Unless the Lord wanted to use me as a "plant", to bring folks my way.

Listening to the trinny sermons every week would drive me through the roof...LOL

[KeptByTheWord]

Another option here is to open your home to fellowship. This is what we have done. I understand the 20% that VS talks about that eventually is like the splinter in your finger, you can only tolerate it for so long, but then something has to give, and its got to come out.

We have tried different churches here in our area, and all of them are Trinity, or Baptist leaning, or don't believe in the moving of the Holy Ghost at all. The one AoG church leans more towards a community, nondenominational type church now, and there is no move of the spirit there.

So, all this combined led us to begin to have worship in our home. We knew of several other families in our area who were hungry for more of God, and who also felt very similar to us. So, we meet in our home, and the Lord has blessed.

I would at least leave this open as an option, and present it to the Lord, and see what He can do with it, MTD. I know you love truth, and I believe you love to teach and lead people. You might be surprised at what doors the Lord could open up for you.

[houston]

To answer the OP...


NO! Never again!

[shazeep]

Maybe there is a nearby assembly that needs your service and understanding of the Word in order to be perfected by the Lord?amen. we call them 'sinners,' pretending we are better than them; and they are right down the street from where you are at right now--the most ripe to be harvested are surely homeless, and humble. Just ignore the proud-hearted, and leave all that religious talk at home.

[shazeep]

To answer the OP...


NO! Never again!:lol hey you got saved there, tho, right? a great nursery, imo. Many (quiet) meat-eaters there, also.

[NotforSale]

You talk about "hate" a lot but you seem to have some of it yourself. Maybe your box is just made of see through glass and you were not aware you still had a box..

No, I see my hate, the hate for false ideas that lead to depression, anxiety, and the pursuit of a lie.

"A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

[NotforSale]

"Thank you, God, that I am like the rest of men." Merton

:thumbsup

[MissBrattified]

TELL US MORE!!!
:heeheehee


LOL! Ironic? :heeheehee My parents had good things to say about the Ballesteros, and CB prayed for me in the hospital when I was about 2 and God healed me instantly. I was too little to remember them, really, although I do clearly remember CB walking into my hospital room and standing in the doorway.

No bone to pick with the Ballesteros, and I don't know MB personally, FTR.

[shazeep]

You talk about "hate" a lot but you seem to have some of it yourself. Maybe your box is just made of see through glass and you were not aware you still had a box..ha that decsribes my box, for sure; transparent to me; evident to everyone else.

[houston]

:lol hey you got saved there, tho, right? a great nursery, imo. Many (quiet) meat-eaters there, also.

No. Jesus saved me 9 months before I attended a UPC.

[shazeep]

ah well i sit corrected. kinda ironic tho, that we are both on a Pent forum, huh. Not sure what to make of that.

[kclee4jc]

To answer the OP...


NO! Never again!

certainly hope your wrong

[shazeep]

certainly hope your wrongi have to ask why, if the Spirit has told him he is right?

[houston]

ah well i sit corrected. kinda ironic tho, that we are both on a Pent forum, huh. Not sure what to make of that.

I am not here often...

[AR Pastor]

Pastor a one God, Jesus name, Holy Ghost evidence by speaking in tongues' Jesus name baptism, holiness no bearded men church.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

I do. I have a beard though. That doesnt disqualify me does it? I also wear a wedding ring.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Pastor a one God, Jesus name, Holy Ghost evidence by speaking in tongues' Jesus name baptism, holiness no bearded men church.

Cant be holy with a beard. Good job. You get extra square footage in your heavenly mansion.

What if someone in your church started growing a beard? Would they be unwelcome?

[shazeep]

:lol actually if he forgot to shave, worshipping God would of course be impossible!

[navygoat1998]

Pastor a one God, Jesus name, Holy Ghost evidence by speaking in tongues' Jesus name baptism, holiness no bearded men church.

Do you also tithe out of your spice rack???? :heeheehee

[FlamingZword]

Pastor a one God, Jesus name, Holy Ghost evidence by speaking in tongues' Jesus name baptism, holiness no bearded men church.

I guess Jesus is not welcomed at your church.

[shazeep]

ha we are all totally evil, obviously :lol
our apologies, AR, and I must say that I am simply shocked at the Apo Pent responses to your post (they should be totally ashamed)--i am a heretic, so i have an excuse! :rofl

[AR Pastor]

ha we are all totally evil, obviously :lol
our apologies, AR, and I must say that I am simply shocked at the Apo Pent responses to your post (they should be totally ashamed)--i am a heretic, so i have an excuse! :rofl

doesn't bother me. I know what I believe.

[ILG]

No. Jesus saved me 9 months before I attended a UPC.

I was saved before I attended a UPC too, but the pastor convinced me that I wasn't because I hadn't been baptized with someone saying the name over me! (Even though I said the name and believed it myself and the preacher said I baptize you in the NAME of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Ghost, which is Jesus, right??!!) he said I was still lost. Looking back, that really messed with my head.

[AR Pastor]

Anyone not baptized in Jesus name is lost.

There is no other saving message than Acts 2:38

[Michael The Disciple]

And the tragic thing is that seems to be the ONLY truth the modern Oneness Pentecostals have.

[ILG]

Anyone not baptized in Jesus name is lost.

There is no other saving message than Acts 2:38

Yeah and to you and a few other people that means that the preacher has to say the name over you. It doesn't matter what you believe or if you say the name YOURSELF (which I did) or if the preacher says I baptize in the NAME of the FS and HS. No, it has to be EXACTLY as you say it does, and that is with the preacher stating the name or you are going to be lost and go to hell on that technicality. Oh, and don't forget to shave. :foottap

[mfblume]

Yeah and to you and a few other people that means that the preacher has to say the name over you. It doesn't matter what you believe or if you say the name YOURSELF (which I did) or if the preacher says I baptize in the NAME of the FS and HS. No, it has to be EXACTLY as you say it does, and that is with the preacher stating the name or you are going to be lost and go to hell on that technicality. Oh, and don't forget to shave. :foottap

I had the "technicality" issue raised to me after I taught baptism in Jesus' name, but in a VERY different manner. One couple came to me and said they did not want to miss out due to a technicality of the name, so they wanted to be baptized in Jesus' name! Whew, that was a pleasant rephrasing of the same thought! To the, it was silly to fail to deal with something that might be a technicality rather than look at a technicality as something to disregard. "If that's all I have to do, then let's do it!" was their attitude.

Why is the proclivity to get away with all people can? Why not try to go the fiftieth mile and find all that we can to please the Lord?

[ILG]

I had the "technicality" issue raised to me after I taught baptism in Jesus' name, but in a VERY different manner. One couple came to me and said they did not want to miss out due to a technicality of the name, so they wanted to be baptized in Jesus' name! Whew, that was a pleasant rephrasing of the same thought! To the, it was silly to fail to deal with something that might be a technicality rather than look at a technicality as something to disregard. "If that's all I have to do, then let's do it!" was their attitude.

Why is the proclivity to get away with all people can? Why not try to go the fiftieth mile and find all that we can to please the Lord?

Here is the reason, MFBlume. I knew in my heart I was saved and my pastor convinced me I was not based on this technicality. This began a long slow process of not having assurance but "what iffing" everything. This produced a leaven of fear in me that didn't end until I understood I was saved by grace and nothing else. What if Jesus will kick you out because the preacher didn't say His name? What if you are not clean shaven?? What if you wear pants? and on and on and on it went. It placed in me a terrible fear....placed by man, not by God.

[mfblume]

Here is the reason, MFBlume. I knew in my heart I was saved and my pastor convinced me I was not based on this technicality. This began a long slow process of not having assurance but "what iffing" everything. This produced a leaven of fear in me that didn't end until I understood I was saved by grace and nothing else. What if Jesus will kick you out because the preacher didn't say His name? What if you are not clean shaven?? What if you wear pants? and on and on and on it went. It placed in me a terrible fear....placed by man, not by God.

The doubts that a preacher might put in you does not change the reality of the picture where the cup is half full not half empty.

[ILG]

The doubts that a preacher might put in you does not change the reality of the picture where the cup is half full not half empty.

That's your opinion. And I have mine. ;) The thing is that some preaching has a negative backside....one I didn't see for many, many years. I don't think it is wrong at all to be rebaptized if one is doing it in faith believing that that is a better way.....but to tell someone you are not saved and will go to hell if you do not do this is quite another.

[navygoat1998]

Anyone not baptized in Jesus name is lost.

There is no other saving message than Acts 2:38

:heeheehee

[Praxeas]

No, I see my hate, the hate for false ideas that lead to depression, anxiety, and the pursuit of a lie.

"A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
Sounds like you just justified yourself.

Of course those you accuse of hate can cop out to the same excuse. Both sides seem to have issues

[Praxeas]

ha that decsribes my box, for sure; transparent to me; evident to everyone else.
See, I see two sides. They are dressed up like little commodores from a kiddie party and they are each in their own boat throwing rocks at each other being ignorant of their own imperfections as long as they focus on their enemy

[MawMaw]

I had the "technicality" issue raised to me after I taught baptism in Jesus' name, but in a VERY different manner. One couple came to me and said they did not want to miss out due to a technicality of the name, so they wanted to be baptized in Jesus' name! Whew, that was a pleasant rephrasing of the same thought! To the, it was silly to fail to deal with something that might be a technicality rather than look at a technicality as something to disregard. "If that's all I have to do, then let's do it!" was their attitude.

:thumbsup

Why is the proclivity to get away with all people can? Why not try to go the fiftieth mile and find all that we can to please the Lord?

:nod

[shazeep]

i am a strong believer in Acts 2:38. I just don't be adding anything to it. And i don't believe one can accept Christ with their mouth, or that an even perfect 'water' baptism, with everyone holding their mouths correctly, means anything if one does not proceed to find the spiritual immersion in Christ.

[BrotherEastman]

My mother always said: When you point your finger at someone, remember there are two fingers pointing back at YOU....

Don't you mean 3? lol

[KeptByTheWord]

Don't you mean 3? lol

Yes, I meant to say 3, Prax caught it in an earlier post :)

[BrotherEastman]

Yes, I meant to say 3, Prax caught it in an earlier post :)

Sorry, I saw that you later corrected it, I should have kept reading but I couldn't help myself. lol:yourock

[mfblume]

That's your opinion. And I have mine.

But it's more than that. One is right and one is wrong. There are not MANY truths, nor MANY ways.

The bible presents these things in a positive light. And the reactions that we SHOULD have are that we should do anything to be saved, let us have at it!

;) The thing is that some preaching has a negative backside....one I didn't see for many, many years. I don't think it is wrong at all to be rebaptized if one is doing it in faith believing that that is a better way.....but to tell someone you are not saved and will go to hell if you do not do this is quite another.

He that sins souls is wise, and there are lots of unwise preachers out there. But in the end, it falls on our shoulders if we allowed their negativity to affect us. We don't have to allow that.

[ILG]

But it's more than that. One is right and one is wrong. There are not MANY truths, nor MANY ways.

The bible presents these things in a positive light. And the reactions that we SHOULD have are that we should do anything to be saved, let us have at it!



He that sins souls is wise, and there are lots of unwise preachers out there. But in the end, it falls on our shoulders if we allowed their negativity to affect us. We don't have to allow that.

What you are saying is that if I don't agree with you and think your way, I am thereby allowing negativity to affect me. Correlation does not imply causation. This is one of the logical fallacies promoted by OP's.

[shazeep]

ty.

[mfblume]

What you are saying is that if I don't agree with you and think your way, I am thereby allowing negativity to affect me. Correlation does not imply causation. This is one of the logical fallacies promoted by OP's.

No, I am saying that the bible is speaking highly and positively about what we must do to be saved, and you are making it out that it is a labour wortghy of misery because of the preachers who unwisely affected you to be hurt by those thoughts of what we must do to be saved. You are too subjective and not being objective enough to think that perhaps your reactions just may not validate your viewpoint.

[Praxeas]

Sorry, I saw that you later corrected it, I should have kept reading but I couldn't help myself. lol:yourock
You know those Aliens from another planet only have 4 fingers

[votivesoul]

God killed Uzzah for what may seem like a technicality. And it was someone else's FAULT!

How much of a slippery slope does anyone really want to stand on when it comes to their salvation? Just so they can nitpick away at what they perceive to be a technicality?

Technically an R rated movie with graphic sex scenes is not pornography since it's not really happening in the truest sense.

A technicality? You bet, if you want to split hairs like that. Doesn't make the first morally acceptable before God to watch, however.

[jfrog]

God killed Uzzah for what may seem like a technicality. And it was someone else's FAULT!

How much of a slippery slope does anyone really want to stand on when it comes to their salvation? Just so they can nitpick away at what they perceive to be a technicality?

Technically an R rated movie with graphic sex scenes is not pornography since it's not really happening in the truest sense.

A technicality? You bet, if you want to split hairs like that. Doesn't make the first morally acceptable before God to watch, however.

Ummmm, trying to make a point out of God killing a man for something someone else done isn't a good starting place for a point...

[votivesoul]

Ummmm, trying to make a point out of God killing a man for something someone else done isn't a good starting place for a point...

In relationship to someone else mis-speaking during a water immersion and how it may affect someone's eternal salvation being considered a mere technicality, it makes perfect sense.

[jfrog]

In relationship to someone else mis-speaking during a water immersion and how it may affect someone's eternal salvation being considered a mere technicality, it makes perfect sense.

Ah yes, the fickle God!

[votivesoul]

Moses missed the Promised Land because of a fickle God. After a lifetime of faithful obedience and sacrifice one act of disobedience cost him.

Not to mention King Saul, who lost the kingdom and ended up afflicted by an evil spirit sent to him by God, because he didn't perfectly obey what the man of God commanded.

Onan died at the hands of a fickle God.

So did Ananias and Sapphira. For one lie, while under the New Covenant as Spirit-filled believers. Even though Peter lied about knowing who Jesus was, just a few months before. How many saints since them have lied at least once and had mercy instead of lethal judgment extended to them?

And King Herod. Because someone else worshipped him. Even though John worshipped the angel in Revelation and was rebuked. And yet, entire churches nowadays and since forever have been worshipping preachers during a sermon and gee, God doesn't whack them.

That fickle, fickle God!

[shazeep]

:lol (surely someone <else> will come to God's defense here)

[ILG]

No, I am saying that the bible is speaking highly and positively about what we must do to be saved, and you are making it out that it is a labour wortghy of misery because of the preachers who unwisely affected you to be hurt by those thoughts of what we must do to be saved. You are too subjective and not being objective enough to think that perhaps your reactions just may not validate your viewpoint.

I disagree. I was looking back in hindsight and I could clearly see that it had negatively affected me, even though I was looking at it from a positive standpoint for many, many years....the same viewpoint you have now. To say it differently, I NEVER saw it negatively until I realized that it had had a horrible affect on me, one I refused to see because I was afraid of hell, being lost and possibly just being falsely accused of what you are basically saying right now....that I am making it out to be a "labor of misery". My point is that I don't believe it is salvational. I believe salvation is by grace through faith, period and putting qualifiers on it such as that the preacher has to say something special over you in order to be saved, seems pretty ridiculous to me now. I think it is actually a scary thing to think and do, to make salvation something that happens apart from your own heart and walk with God.

[ILG]

God killed Uzzah for what may seem like a technicality. And it was someone else's FAULT!

How much of a slippery slope does anyone really want to stand on when it comes to their salvation? Just so they can nitpick away at what they perceive to be a technicality?

Technically an R rated movie with graphic sex scenes is not pornography since it's not really happening in the truest sense.

A technicality? You bet, if you want to split hairs like that. Doesn't make the first morally acceptable before God to watch, however.

Who is actually doing the hair splitting? I think it is splitting hairs to say you can repent, be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost and still be lost because the preacher did not say the right things. For it is by grace you are saved by faith.

[ILG]

Ah yes, the fickle God!

And that is the whole point. I lived in fear after I was told I wasn't saved after I indeed had been saved because I believed God was terribly fickle. I don't believe that anymore. I am happy I have assurance and don't live in fear. A fickle God produces fear. Some will focus on the parts of the Bible that produce fear in people and some will focus on the parts that produce assurance and compassion. Having lived the first way for many years, I found it to be a bad thing and would rather focus on the goodness of God.

[Sasha]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

Believe it or not, I do.

[Amanah]

I think this thread would have been better with a poll accompanying it . . .

[Steve Epley]

I think this thread would have been better with a poll accompanying it . . .

I am techno challenged I bearly can post.

[Praxeas]

God killed Uzzah for what may seem like a technicality. And it was someone else's FAULT!

How much of a slippery slope does anyone really want to stand on when it comes to their salvation? Just so they can nitpick away at what they perceive to be a technicality?

Technically an R rated movie with graphic sex scenes is not pornography since it's not really happening in the truest sense.

A technicality? You bet, if you want to split hairs like that. Doesn't make the first morally acceptable before God to watch, however.

Ummmm, trying to make a point out of God killing a man for something someone else done isn't a good starting place for a point...
God said don't touch the ark. Nobody forced this man to touch it...

[Praxeas]

Ah yes, the fickle God!

Moses missed the Promised Land because of a fickle God. A

That fickle, fickle God!
He isn't frickle. God changes not

[Praxeas]

I disagree. I was looking back in hindsight and I could clearly see that it had negatively affected me, even though I was looking at it from a positive standpoint for many, many years....the same viewpoint you have now. To say it differently, I NEVER saw it negatively until I realized that it had had a horrible affect on me, one I refused to see because I was afraid of hell, being lost and possibly just being falsely accused of what you are basically saying right now....that I am making it out to be a "labor of misery". My point is that I don't believe it is salvational. I believe salvation is by grace through faith, period and putting qualifiers on it such as that the preacher has to say something special over you in order to be saved, seems pretty ridiculous to me now. I think it is actually a scary thing to think and do, to make salvation something that happens apart from your own heart and walk with God.
Isn't "faith" a qualifier? And what is faith?

to be clear the bible says we have to have faith IN Jesus.

Nobody can say "I'll have faith in myself and make it to heaven. We don't have to do it God's way".

Abraham had faith and His faith led him to obey what God said. Not obeying what God said is the antithesis of faith

[navygoat1998]

Isn't "faith" a qualifier? And what is faith?

to be clear the bible says we have to have faith IN Jesus.

Nobody can say "I'll have faith in myself and make it to heaven. We don't have to do it God's way".

Abraham had faith and His faith led him to obey what God said. Not obeying what God said is the antithesis of faith

Abraham's faith counted unto him as righteousness.

[shazeep]

And that is the whole point. I lived in fear after I was told I wasn't saved after I indeed had been saved because I believed God was terribly fickle. I don't believe that anymore. I am happy I have assurance and don't live in fear. A fickle God produces fear. Some will focus on the parts of the Bible that produce fear in people and some will focus on the parts that produce assurance and compassion. Having lived the first way for many years, I found it to be a bad thing and would rather focus on the goodness of God.:nod

[ILG]

Isn't "faith" a qualifier? And what is faith?

to be clear the bible says we have to have faith IN Jesus.

Nobody can say "I'll have faith in myself and make it to heaven. We don't have to do it God's way".

Abraham had faith and His faith led him to obey what God said. Not obeying what God said is the antithesis of faith

Yes, faith is the only qualifier. But the funny thing is that people always want your faith to "obey" THEIR rules. Funny thing, that.

[ILG]

Abraham's faith counted unto him as righteousness.

:thumbsup There you go! Salvation isn't a carrot on a stick where you have to do more and more to please God and if you don't he is going to cast you into hell for eternity.

[shazeep]

Yes, faith is the only qualifier. But the funny thing is that people always want your faith to "obey" THEIR rules. Funny thing, that.:lol
oh--not haha funny...

[votivesoul]

Who is actually doing the hair splitting? I think it is splitting hairs to say you can repent, be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost and still be lost because the preacher did not say the right things. For it is by grace you are saved by faith.

Next person I baptize, I will just baptize him or her the in the name of the Lord Buddha.

Paul was told to "call upon the name of the Lord" when he was baptized in Acts 22:16.

"Call upon" is the Greek word epikalalolei (sp?) and is reflexive. It means to summon by name and invoke over one's self out loud.

This idea that the name of Jesus in water baptism is just a technicality or that a person can be made a covenantal member of the Body of Christ without immersion into that Name isn't in agreement with the Scriptures.

Which is fine, if that's your thing. I hope we all make New Jerusalem. I can disagree without animosity.

[ILG]

Next person I baptize, I will just baptize him or her the in the name of the Lord Buddha.

Paul was told to "call upon the name of the Lord" when he was baptized in Acts 22:16.

"Call upon" is the Greek word epikalalolei (sp?) and is reflexive. It means to summon by name and invoke over one's self out loud.

This idea that the name of Jesus in water baptism is just a technicality or that a person can be made a covenantal member of the Body of Christ without immersion into that Name isn't in agreement with the Scriptures.

Which is fine, if that's your thing. I hope we all make New Jerusalem. I can disagree without animosity.

I think what YOU say when YOU baptize someone needs to go by your convictions. But if you said Buddha and the person was being baptized in faith I don't think it would matter a hill of beans to THEIR salvation.

And here is an interesting thing, you quoted that Paul was commanded to call upon the name of the Lord in HIS OWN baptism. I did that. I felt cleansed and justified even though the preacher said FSHG. But I myself did call on the name of Jesus! And the next preacher told me I had to get rebaptized because the preacher did the wrong thing. That was legalism.

[votivesoul]

God said don't touch the ark. Nobody forced this man to touch it...

I was being sarcastic. When humans decide they can speak for God on what God does or does not consider a "technicality" and so, call him "fickle", I can only point out the error in the logic, because according to their logic, the references I gave would appear to be mere technicalities of a fickle God.

The testimony of God in Christ in the Holy Scriptures is that immersion in water should be done in the name of Jesus.

God says this as much as He ever said to not touch the ark. And yet one is a technicality and the other isn't?

Let's get real and make a decision. Either God really cares how we are baptized, down to every detail, and that it is necessary for salvation, or that He doesn't care and it isn't.

And if we are going to argue over it, then let's be honest. Take away one aspect of water baptism in the name of Jesus, and you're pulling on the thread of greater tapestry.

If you want to know how by the third and fourth century, it became acceptable to sprinkle a man on his death bed and call it baptism, then go back to the beginning when Justin Martyr began changing the baptismal formula of the Book of Acts.

If you take away the need for the name of Jesus to be invoked audibly over someone in faith, then eventually, the next step one takes on such a slippery slope ends up being questioning if immersion is required as part of the New Covenant, or if immersion is the only acceptable format for how to perform the act.

This is how all false doctrine begins. Saints are not careful regarding the faith, and quit contending, and so, lose those things which had been wrought. Soon enough deceivers and antichrists are being welcomed into the home, and saints are blessing them.

2 John 1:7-11,

7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

All of the above happens when a believer decides that a core doctrine of the Bible contains mere technicalities. It may not happen in a moment, or even in a year, but after years of convincing oneself that the name of Jesus being spoken over a person isn't required by the Scriptures, when it obviously is (Acts 22:16 proves it), then down the road, eventually everyone's saved, even the un-baptized, the un-immersed in the Spirit, the un-holy, the un-regenerated.

Buy that all you want. I'm not going to.

[shazeep]

ha ok not baptizing in Buddha's name anytime soon :lol
i see a reflection in Freed from the Law of sin and death, and will you then go break the Commandments? Heaven forbid! The difference in the letter v the spirit.

[votivesoul]

:thumbsup There you go! Salvation isn't a carrot on a stick where you have to do more and more to please God and if you don't he is going to cast you into hell for eternity.

This only tells one part of the story. If Abraham had NOT OBEYED the command of God to leave his homeland before anything else ever happened in his life, there would not have been any promise for him to believe in order to receive the impartation of God's righteousness.

[navygoat1998]

Yes, faith is the only qualifier. But the funny thing is that people always want your faith to "obey" THEIR rules. Funny thing, that.

:thumbsup

[ILG]

This only tells one part of the story. If Abraham had NOT OBEYED the command of God to leave his homeland before anything else ever happened in his life, there would not have been any promise for him to believe in order to receive the impartation of God's righteousness.

But Abraham was following God Himself, doing what God required of him, not having some guy tell him what God required of him. See, I think we need to do what God requires of us. But what God requires of me may not be what you think.

[shazeep]

as alluded to by the several parables that illuminate those who did not follow your script, and yet partake of the kingdom. Baptism is a symbol, a marker of a personal declaration--or it's supposed to be. When water baptism, regardless of how verbally perfect it may be, becomes the aim of leading someone to Christ--rather than an actual, personal immersion in Christ--then it has lost its value. You may as well baptize in Budda's name then.

[shazeep]

If the pastor that baptized me had walked up to me a year--or a month--later, and asked what i had learned about Christ since then, my reaction would have mostly been "what do you mean?" But the bigger point is that he did not do this, and he was a great guy; it just isn't done, for the most part. After all, i was 'saved.' :lol

[Sabby]

I do

[Praxeas]

Abraham's faith counted unto him as righteousness.
Yep...

[Praxeas]

Yes, faith is the only qualifier. But the funny thing is that people always want your faith to "obey" THEIR rules. Funny thing, that.
So there are qualifiers.....ok

Obey the word. No laughing matter that

[Praxeas]

I think what YOU say when YOU baptize someone needs to go by your convictions. But if you said Buddha and the person was being baptized in faith I don't think it would matter a hill of beans to THEIR salvation.

And here is an interesting thing, you quoted that Paul was commanded to call upon the name of the Lord in HIS OWN baptism. I did that. I felt cleansed and justified even though the preacher said FSHG. But I myself did call on the name of Jesus! And the next preacher told me I had to get rebaptized because the preacher did the wrong thing. That was legalism.
By your convictions and not by the word of God?

So essentially we can thumb our nose at God's word?

That's not faith. Abraham believed and YES it was credited to him for righteousness...and Abraham obeyed God.

In other words when it comes to baptizing he would have done it however God says to do it and not any way that fancied him.

All the great "faith" people of the bible obeyed what was commanded. That's not legalism. That's faith. Noah had faith and he followed God's instructions.

[Praxeas]

But Abraham was following God Himself, doing what God required of him, not having some guy tell him what God required of him. See, I think we need to do what God requires of us. But what God requires of me may not be what you think.
Exactly. So the REAL issue then is if what some guy says is required is what God required.

So this issue really boils down to a debate over what the bible teaches we should do and how we should do it

[shazeep]

hmm while i think debate has a place, the outcomes of debates verify to me that it is ones convictions about Scripture that should lead them, via the Holy Spirit's guidance.
You cannot put new wine into old wineskins tells us that different people will interpret Scripture differently. If God does not have a problem with this, then who am I to debate someone else's beliefs with a view to altering them? And if God does have a problem with my view of a matter, i trust that the Holy Spirit can let me know.

But we are talking about 'for those who study Scripture;' how many is that? The rest, the many, accept the first interpretation they are given, and spend most of the rest of their lives, perhaps, defending it--ignorantly, no doubt.

[ILG]

By your convictions and not by the word of God?

So essentially we can thumb our nose at God's word?

That's not faith. Abraham believed and YES it was credited to him for righteousness...and Abraham obeyed God.

In other words when it comes to baptizing he would have done it however God says to do it and not any way that fancied him.

All the great "faith" people of the bible obeyed what was commanded. That's not legalism. That's faith. Noah had faith and he followed God's instructions.

The Biblical directive was to call upon the name in baptism. So why don't Jesus name preachers believe that it is enough for the person being baptized to do that?? (Acts 22:16) Why do they think a 3rd party has to do it for them? I think it is legalistic to say that a 3rd party must utter the name for the recipient. I think it is extra-biblical to say that if a recipient calls on the name it is not enough.

[ILG]

Exactly. So the REAL issue then is if what some guy says is required is what God required.

So this issue really boils down to a debate over what the bible teaches we should do and how we should do it

If some guy says it and he is right, it should be done. If some guy says it and he is wrong, the person doesn't have to do it. But they might think the guy is right and do it and then they get on a slippery path.

[ILG]

hmm while i think debate has a place, the outcomes of debates verify to me that it is ones convictions about Scripture that should lead them, via the Holy Spirit's guidance.
You cannot put new wine into old wineskins tells us that different people will interpret Scripture differently. If God does not have a problem with this, then who am I to debate someone else's beliefs with a view to altering them? And if God does have a problem with my view of a matter, i trust that the Holy Spirit can let me know.

But we are talking about 'for those who study Scripture;' how many is that? The rest, the many, accept the first interpretation they are given, and spend most of the rest of their lives, perhaps, defending it--ignorantly, no doubt.

:thumbsup

[BrotherEastman]

By your convictions and not by the word of God?

So essentially we can thumb our nose at God's word?

That's not faith. Abraham believed and YES it was credited to him for righteousness...and Abraham obeyed God.

In other words when it comes to baptizing he would have done it however God says to do it and not any way that fancied him.

All the great "faith" people of the bible obeyed what was commanded. That's not legalism. That's faith. Noah had faith and he followed God's instructions.
Oh for crying out loud!!!!!!! That made too much sense!:yourock

[votivesoul]

And here is an interesting thing, you quoted that Paul was commanded to call upon the name of the Lord in HIS OWN baptism. I did that. I felt cleansed and justified even though the preacher said FSHG. But I myself did call on the name of Jesus! And the next preacher told me I had to get rebaptized because the preacher did the wrong thing. That was legalism.

That is an admirable thing, and because of Acts 22:16, I agree that between the two, the one immersed more so that the one immersing needs to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. I teach it this way.

But I have no doubt that it also matters that the immerser call upon the name of the Lord, since they are commanded "whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus".

Can two walk together except be they agreed?

If a person is using a triune formula, thinking that Christ is God the Son, the second person in the Godhead, and they go baptizing invoking the titles, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on account of that belief, but the soon to be immersed is not a Trinitarian, and understands Christ to not be what the immerser thinks/believes He is (i.e. not God the Son, but rather the Incarnation of God the Father), then why in a million years would the soon to be immersed ever agree to be so baptized (and vice versa, why would a Trinitarian minister ever agree to baptize someone with a triune formula knowing the one to be immersed didn't believe in the fundamental theology of God the one doing the immersing)?

The only way either would agree is if they both agreed that it didn't matter.

[votivesoul]

Consider all other acts of faith, like praying for one's healing.

Simon Peter, with the lame man at the gate beautiful, called upon the name of Jesus as he reached out to help the man stand to his feet healed.

Simon uttered the name audibly.

Then, in giving an account of the man's restoration, Simon indicated that it was the name of Jesus, and faith in that name, that made the man whole.

Do you see how someone else speaking the Name in faith caused the hearer to likewise respond in faith to the Name? And when the hearer (who never called on Jesus to heal him) believed Simon Peter and the Name Simon Peter spoke, a miracle occurred.

How about baptism? Shouldn't the immerser speak the name of Jesus in faith when they immerse, likewise calling on the name of the Lord as a royal priest and intercessor whereby, in the invoking of the person of Christ, the High Priest, Jesus Himself hears from on High and so, forgives the immersed upon immersion if the person has placed full trust and reliance in His person and has repented of his or her sins?

It has ever been the duty and privilege of a priest of God to invoke the name of the Lord over and upon the people, in order to, in a symbol, transfer that Name and all the power and righteousness it represents, to the audience in need of the priestly duty.

The Aaronic blessing of Numbers 6 helps indicate this.

We now are priests of the new covenant, like Christ, after the order of Melchizedek, following in the footsteps of our High Priest, who, as the Son of God, ever lives to make intercession for us. We do likewise, petitioning the Door (i.e. Jesus, the only way to the Father; John 14:6) to open to the ones we are baptizing, that the Kingdom of God may be revealed to the immersed by the Holy Spirit when they receive the promise of the Father.

[MawMaw]

By your convictions and not by the word of God?

So essentially we can thumb our nose at God's word?

That's not faith. Abraham believed and YES it was credited to him for righteousness...and Abraham obeyed God.

In other words when it comes to baptizing he would have done it however God says to do it and not any way that fancied him.

All the great "faith" people of the bible obeyed what was commanded. That's not legalism. That's faith. Noah had faith and he followed God's instructions.

Oh for crying out loud!!!!!!! That made too much sense!:yourock

:thumbsup :nod

[ILG]

That is an admirable thing, and because of Acts 22:16, I agree that between the two, the one immersed more so that the one immersing needs to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. I teach it this way.

But I have no doubt that it also matters that the immerser call upon the name of the Lord, since they are commanded "whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus".

Can two walk together except be they agreed?

If a person is using a triune formula, thinking that Christ is God the Son, the second person in the Godhead, and they go baptizing invoking the titles, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on account of that belief, but the soon to be immersed is not a Trinitarian, and understands Christ to not be what the immerser thinks/believes He is (i.e. not God the Son, but rather the Incarnation of God the Father), then why in a million years would the soon to be immersed ever agree to be so baptized (and vice versa, why would a Trinitarian minister ever agree to baptize someone with a triune formula knowing the one to be immersed didn't believe in the fundamental theology of God the one doing the immersing)?

The only way either would agree is if they both agreed that it didn't matter.

Is the baptizer ever commanded to utter certain words over the candidate? Is there ever an example of this? He is said to "baptize in the name" but could that also not be a metaphor in Who he is following and what he stands for? Does that literally mean he must utter something verbally? Isn't the only one who is actually commanded to call on the name the candidate?

[NotforSale]

This entire Thread is living proof that Religion is a fallacy full of lies, leading people to the bondage of unnatural Laws and arguments that never end. If someone doesn't agree with a particular method of Baptism, they are lost and going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity.

Please, folks, wake up and see the irony of this isolated theory that simply cannot be proven. This type of Theology is wrestled by the mentally challenged who live in the past, where the premise of an idea is based upon unseen, unproven, and illiterate experiences.

In the end, this is why Religion gives the insane a platform, where they can trumpet nothing but deceit and self righteous dogmas that center upon a few who think they've figured it all out. Sad.

If we truly believe in the mercy that seems to be present in Scripture, God can save a man who has NEVER been baptized, NEVER been to Church, and has NEVER agreed with Man and his Religion.

[ILG]

I think the whole thing begins when people get saved and then look a the Bible as a rule book rather than a guide intended for a good, clean life. They start off in righteousness by faith and then start nitpicking the Bible and saying "This person is out and that person is out because they don't measure up". It's the leaven. We are either saved by grace, by righteousness that is of faith and faith alone or we go down the path of salvation by works.

[shazeep]

nice to see at least two people around here still have some sense :lol

[Miss Scarlett]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

I do. And my Pastor teaches holiness standards and lives them before us.

[Ferd]

This entire Thread is living proof that Religion is a fallacy full of lies, leading people to the bondage of unnatural Laws and arguments that never end. If someone doesn't agree with a particular method of Baptism, they are lost and going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity.

Please, folks, wake up and see the irony of this isolated theory that simply cannot be proven. This type of Theology is wrestled by the mentally challenged who live in the past, where the premise of an idea is based upon unseen, unproven, and illiterate experiences.

In the end, this is why Religion gives the insane a platform, where they can trumpet nothing but deceit and self righteous dogmas that center upon a few who think they've figured it all out. Sad.

If we truly believe in the mercy that seems to be present in Scripture, God can save a man who has NEVER been baptized, NEVER been to Church, and has NEVER agreed with Man and his Religion.


This thread was a "yes i do" "no I dont" accounting of the members of the forum. until YOU came along with a gallon of gas and a torch and did violence to the peacful little thread.


talk about hypocrisy.

YOU are the one that devolved this thread and now you run off on a tantrum about how OPs are haters?

the only person here depicting the kind of vitriol you are pointing at other is YOU the advocate of abandoning religion.


blather

[votivesoul]

Is the baptizer ever commanded to utter certain words over the candidate? Is there ever an example of this? He is said to "baptize in the name" but could that also not be a metaphor in Who he is following and what he stands for? Does that literally mean he must utter something verbally? Isn't the only one who is actually commanded to call on the name the candidate?

If such is true, uttering the name of Jesus for any reason then becomes unnecessary.

Jesus is a real, living being, currently in heaven at the right hand of God. It's not enough to just presume that we have the authority represented by His Name. We must exercise that authority by invoking It.

When I baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ, it's not just me uttering a ritualistic phrase or incantation. When I am baptizing someone in the name of Jesus Christ, and I speak the name out loud, I, along with the immersed, am calling on the name of the Lord in faith for the person's salvation, simply because there is salvation in no other Name.

All who CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This requires using the voice and speaking the Name. The idea that the immerser just pushes a person underwater, saying nothing just doesn't match up to the requirements of Scripture.

When Paul cast the spirit of divination out of the "damsel", he verbally called out and commanded the spirit in the name of the Lord Jesus. He didn't just silently cast out the demon because he had been authorized by the One who bears that Name.

[shazeep]

This thread was a "yes i do" "no I dont" accounting of the members of the forum. until YOU came along with a gallon of gas and a torch and did violence to the peacful little thread.


talk about hypocrisy.

YOU are the one that devolved this thread and now you run off on a tantrum about how OPs are haters?

the only person here depicting the kind of vitriol you are pointing at other is YOU the advocate of abandoning religion.


blather

Um, what? I thought he was polite, concise, and accurate. You people are dangerous, and have no clue what damage you do, speaking in general, of course. it can easily be argued that this thread is a self-proclaimed indictment of the religious establishment, and why we are in the shape we are in today. I know this seems harsh, but If My people, who are called by My Name... is represented by you. While i don't mean this as a blanket indictment, if the shoe fits...and hey, your post shows that you appear to be slipping right into it, wadr.

And ps, although i doubt that you would be able to discern it, Christ was a big advocate of losing your religion. Your finale of "blather" sums it up, nicely. Physician, heal thyself.

[ILG]

If such is true, uttering the name of Jesus for any reason then becomes unnecessary.

Jesus is a real, living being, currently in heaven at the right hand of God. It's not enough to just presume that we have the authority represented by His Name. We must exercise that authority by invoking It.

When I baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ, it's not just me uttering a ritualistic phrase or incantation. When I am baptizing someone in the name of Jesus Christ, and I speak the name out loud, I, along with the immersed, am calling on the name of the Lord in faith for the person's salvation, simply because there is salvation in no other Name.

All who CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This requires using the voice and speaking the Name. The idea that the immerser just pushes a person underwater, saying nothing just doesn't match up to the requirements of Scripture.

When Paul cast the spirit of divination out of the "damsel", he verbally called out and commanded the spirit in the name of the Lord Jesus. He didn't just silently cast out the demon because he had been authorized by the One who bears that Name.

You can do all of those things, but if you tell a person "unless you are baptized with a preacher saying the name Jesus over top of you, you are lost" I think you are wrong and unbiblical.

[Ferd]

Um, what? I thought he was polite, concise, and accurate. You people are dangerous, and have no clue what damage you do, speaking in general, of course. it can easily be argued that this thread is a self-proclaimed indictment of the religious establishment, and why we are in the shape we are in today. I know this seems harsh, but If My people, who are called by My Name... is represented by you. While i don't mean this as a blanket indictment, if the shoe fits...and hey, your post shows that you appear to be slipping right into it, wadr.

And ps, although i doubt that you would be able to discern it, Christ was a big advocate of losing your religion. Your finale of "blather" sums it up, nicely. Physician, heal thyself.

whateverdude


i did in fact go back and take a look. our friend offered up a nice little cutdown that started the whole thing.

HE tossed the molotov cocktail. did the OP side engage? surely. but lets not kid ourselves. our friend here lit the match then lamented those religious nuts that responded.

you dont get to do both. HE DID BOTH.


you wanna call me dangerous? fine. im not losing sleep. ive got enough posts on this forum and enough history going back to FCF that those who matter know full well that Ive taken as many shots at the ultra-cons as I have those who have moved on to greener pastures.

[shazeep]

well bless you then :D

[Monterrey]

This entire Thread is living proof that Religion is a fallacy full of lies, leading people to the bondage of unnatural Laws and arguments that never end. If someone doesn't agree with a particular method of Baptism, they are lost and going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity.

Please, folks, wake up and see the irony of this isolated theory that simply cannot be proven. This type of Theology is wrestled by the mentally challenged who live in the past, where the premise of an idea is based upon unseen, unproven, and illiterate experiences.

In the end, this is why Religion gives the insane a platform, where they can trumpet nothing but deceit and self righteous dogmas that center upon a few who think they've figured it all out. Sad.

If we truly believe in the mercy that seems to be present in Scripture, God can save a man who has NEVER been baptized, NEVER been to Church, and has NEVER agreed with Man and his Religion.

And that, dear misguided soul, is a flat out lie.

Whatever tangent you have went on, after you left pentecost, it has destroyed you.

Carry on.

[MawMaw]

I do. And my Pastor teaches holiness standards and lives them before us.

Mine does too Sis! Aren't we blessed to have such leadership! :nod

[shazeep]

amen. Ty, God, that i moved enough to never have the horror stories i have heard. I see now that this gave me a sense of independence that must have been palpable, as i was never subjected to any of that, and all of my even Apo/Pent experiences were positive ones. Surely that is the norm.
And that, dear misguided soul, is a flat out lie.

Whatever tangent you have went on, after you left pentecost, it has destroyed you.

Carry on.we have more than one parable that agrees with him; yours seems the misdirected post. I know they stay away from these in divinity school--just as i know that no preacher on this forum is likely to tell a prospective convert "Count the cost," let alone "Every inch of skin will be stripped from you"--but you might do yourself a favor and at least not "lie" to us yourself, when you do not know. See that it is you who might have been deceived; admit you learned all you know from some "Dr of Divinity" or whatever. Are you not aware of the Scriptures about 'men of letters?' Those who cannot do, teach!

[Roxanne Murphy]

I do. And my Pastor teaches holiness standards and lives them before us.

Biblical holiness? Like this:

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:21-32 KJV)

Or are you referring to the holiness 'dress code' that is taught often instead of true holiness?

[Monterrey]

amen. Ty, God, that i moved enough to never have the horror stories i have heard. I see now that this gave me a sense of independence that must have been palpable, as i was never subjected to any of that, and all of my even Apo/Pent experiences were positive ones. Surely that is the norm.
we have more than one parable that agrees with him; yours seems the misdirected post. I know they stay away from these in divinity school--just as i know that no preacher on this forum is likely to tell a prospective convert "Count the cost," let alone "Every inch of skin will be stripped from you"--but you might do yourself a favor and at least not "lie" to us yourself, when you do not know. See that it is you who might have been deceived; admit you learned all you know from some "Dr of Divinity" or whatever. Are you not aware of the Scriptures about 'men of letters?' Those who cannot do, teach!

The reply to the out and out lie that I bolded is not a misguided post. He had moved almost into universalism. That is a lying doctrine.

So go back and read the post I highlighted and you will get a better picture of why I said what I said.

[shazeep]

I heartily agree with the bolded part, and i say again that we have Scriptural parables, well-known, that illuminate this concept; as well as several others that contrast it with over-religious lawyer-types, and various other Bible-thumpers who would use Scripture as a weapon. He is not 'lying;' you are accusing, wadr. The Bible truly is a sword, and reveals the premises of those who read it. Understand that i am not speaking specifically, as i don't think it is fair to make judgements based upon forum posts, wherein we debate these things necessarily--i have always known you to be quite accepting, and you are, after all, defending the Word as you see fit.

Please consider that there are surely passages of Scripture that have been misrepresented to you, or poorly represented, and even your preferred translations--like any translations--are written from an agenda, no matter how neutral those assembled thought they might be. Yours were written to favor king-makers, and empire builders. You are a Western Christian. Thus, there are entire realms of spiritual thought closed to you, but available in Scripture; which plainly states, to any with the requisite ears, that many will be accepted who do not conform to the accepted dogma. God judges the heart, does He not? How can we do less? Free yourself, i pray, from this satanic insistence on mouthing the correct words in order to be accepted; and listen to the Spirit speaking in them. There is truly only one way; and holding your mouth right is not it.

[Revelationist]

Yep...

[shazeep]

Really, all one need do is carry your assertions to their conclusion to see that what has been given you is a vengeful, spiteful, petty, known God; not the Master of the Universe. Not Love. Pray tell, what happens to those who have--gasp--had, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit proclaimed over their water baptism, in your--pardon me--twisted model?

[Praxeas]

The Biblical directive was to call upon the name in baptism. So why don't Jesus name preachers believe that it is enough for the person being baptized to do that?? (Acts 22:16) Why do they think a 3rd party has to do it for them? I think it is legalistic to say that a 3rd party must utter the name for the recipient. I think it is extra-biblical to say that if a recipient calls on the name it is not enough.
That's really the issue though isn't it? That's what I said before. You are assuming your biblical view is correct and ours is not and is therefore not up for debate.

You see Jesus commanded the Apostles to go out and baptize "in the name". We can wrangle over the meaning of the rest of that if you want but when Peter preached on Pentecost he said literally "Repent and get yourself baptized (Passive) in the name of Jesus"..

He was not to baptize Himself. He was to allow someone to baptize him "In Jesus name". So the biblical command was for the baptizer to do something and the baptizee to allow or submit to it.

I'll post something I wrote about why we say the name in the next post

[Praxeas]

Baptism and Discipleship...

Baptism is part of a teacher's discipleship.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can see this in the gospels

Joh 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

That this baptism was done in water is evident

Joh 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
Joh 3:23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

And we can see baptism was linked to discipleship in Acts

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You can see that they taught AND baptized disciples.

Furthermore, Jesus commissioned the church to go out and make people disciples unto Jesus, so we are authorized to do that.

Baptism in "Jesus name" both signifies by what authority we do such things but also signifies whose Disciple we are.

I believe this was part of Paul's point in 1Cor

1Co 1:12 But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.

Notice some believed they were "of" Paul or Apollos or Cephas and then Paul connects that to baptism? Futher more Paul seems to connect some claiming to be "of Paul" with whether or not they were baptized "In the name of Paul" or that Paul himself had baptized others..

This is why we baptize "In the name of Jesus", because we are not making disciples to ourselves but unto Him. We are the body of Christ so we are His proxy here on earth to make people HIS disciples for Him.

Mat 28 speaks of discipleship but it also emphasizes AUTHORITY. All Authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ, so therefore ALL authority is His.

The terms "Father, Son and Spirit" represents God's work in heaven and on earth. The Father's throne is heaven. The Son redeemed man here on earth and rules on the throne of David and the Spirit completes and continues the work of God in and through the Church here on earth (I believe Holy Spirit is a sort of circumlocution for the Shekina Glory).

"Name" refers to a Persons authority. "Name" also refers to the Person Himself. "Name" is often used as an idiomatic way of saying "Person".

So all the authority of Heaven and Earth is His. All the authority and domain of the Father, Son and Spirit is also His.

That is why we baptize in HIS name. That is why and how the Apostoles understood His words and baptized in HIS Name. Because all the authority is HIS and we are making people disciples unto HIM.

Further understanding of Name/Person and Authority can be learned from other texts

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Act 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, this one whom you see and know, His name made firm. And the faith which came through Him has given him this perfect soundness before you.

Act 10:43 All the Prophets give witness to Him, that through His name whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

[Praxeas]

If some guy says it and he is right, it should be done. If some guy says it and he is wrong, the person doesn't have to do it. But they might think the guy is right and do it and then they get on a slippery path.
So then you can see that the REAL issue is not accusing others of legalism but determining what the bible says.

[votivesoul]

You can do all of those things, but if you tell a person "unless you are baptized with a preacher saying the name Jesus over top of you, you are lost" I think you are wrong and unbiblical.

Fair enough. I believe opposite. May the Lord reveal the truth as He sees fit.

[shazeep]

Amen. Them with ears, hear.
So then you can see that the REAL issue is not accusing others of legalism but determining what the bible says.I'm certainly not interested in accusing anyone of anything, legalism included. It can be easy to take the post for the person on a forum, when we are discussing strongly held beliefs, on purpose--not living our daily lives, wherein our true natures, hearts, are revealed. Therefore, i really have no conception of any of you as people, at least in a sense.

"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me."

You will never know Christ by sitting in a room all day reading Scripture. I don't care if you read for a million years. You cannot worship--which means follow--Christ in that building you know as church. It's as simple as that. You cannot accept Christ with your mouth. Baptism is just a symbol, but it is usually, too often, made into the end product of an ersatz salvation for one who was called in fear, and will be placed, effectively, in a tomb. Admit it--the next step for a new convert in that system is to then teach them standards by which they are to determine who to exclude. This is the inevitable result of the doctrine of Original Sin. You are freed from the Law of sin and death, in Christ; not bound more tightly to it.

There is a lesson in the Eskimo meme; measure it if you will:

Eskimo: So, if i did not know about sin, would i still go to hell?
Priest: No, you would not.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

See that this man was not brought Salvation--freedom--but Condemnation, death. Using the baptism symbol, one could best be described here as drowning. The entire point is to bury all that. Leave it all behind. You are freed from the Law of sin and death. At your best, you would never notice another's sin for the rest of your life, being too immersed in demonstrating Life, more abundantly, which the 'lost' will naturally flock to. If you think you need to practice holiness--i do--by all means do so. Quietly. While i personally have determined that looking for any other 'standard' than the Holy Spirit, in the moment, is pointless, coming from "all (who) have sinned, and come short..."--or their interpretations--everyone is different there, perhaps. But if you think I need to follow some standard, you have lost the point. Fatally.

[aegsm76]

shaz - you really are all over the board. As you say, a post is sometimes hard to understand.
However, many times when I read your posts, I wonder if you believe that it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and rise from the dead for us to be saved.
Can you address this?

[MawMaw]

Baptism and Discipleship...

Baptism is part of a teacher's discipleship.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can see this in the gospels

Joh 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

That this baptism was done in water is evident

Joh 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
Joh 3:23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

And we can see baptism was linked to discipleship in Acts

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You can see that they taught AND baptized disciples.

Furthermore, Jesus commissioned the church to go out and make people disciples unto Jesus, so we are authorized to do that.

Baptism in "Jesus name" both signifies by what authority we do such things but also signifies whose Disciple we are.

I believe this was part of Paul's point in 1Cor

1Co 1:12 But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.

Notice some believed they were "of" Paul or Apollos or Cephas and then Paul connects that to baptism? Futher more Paul seems to connect some claiming to be "of Paul" with whether or not they were baptized "In the name of Paul" or that Paul himself had baptized others..

This is why we baptize "In the name of Jesus", because we are not making disciples to ourselves but unto Him. We are the body of Christ so we are His proxy here on earth to make people HIS disciples for Him.

Mat 28 speaks of discipleship but it also emphasizes AUTHORITY. All Authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ, so therefore ALL authority is His.

The terms "Father, Son and Spirit" represents God's work in heaven and on earth. The Father's throne is heaven. The Son redeemed man here on earth and rules on the throne of David and the Spirit completes and continues the work of God in and through the Church here on earth (I believe Holy Spirit is a sort of circumlocution for the Shekina Glory).

"Name" refers to a Persons authority. "Name" also refers to the Person Himself. "Name" is often used as an idiomatic way of saying "Person".

So all the authority of Heaven and Earth is His. All the authority and domain of the Father, Son and Spirit is also His.

That is why we baptize in HIS name. That is why and how the Apostoles understood His words and baptized in HIS Name. Because all the authority is HIS and we are making people disciples unto HIM.

Further understanding of Name/Person and Authority can be learned from other texts

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Act 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, this one whom you see and know, His name made firm. And the faith which came through Him has given him this perfect soundness before you.

Act 10:43 All the Prophets give witness to Him, that through His name whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Excellent study on baptism and discipleship!
Thank you for sharing!! :nod

[Monterrey]

Prax, it won't matter, they won't see.

Nothing like having eyes but not seeing, having ears and not hearing.

[ILG]

That's really the issue though isn't it? That's what I said before. You are assuming your biblical view is correct and ours is not and is therefore not up for debate.

You see Jesus commanded the Apostles to go out and baptize "in the name". We can wrangle over the meaning of the rest of that if you want but when Peter preached on Pentecost he said literally "Repent and get yourself baptized (Passive) in the name of Jesus"..

He was not to baptize Himself. He was to allow someone to baptize him "In Jesus name". So the biblical command was for the baptizer to do something and the baptizee to allow or submit to it.

I'll post something I wrote about why we say the name in the next post

That's all fine, but people are telling others they are not saved unless they do it THIS way. The problem with that is I was saved before I did it that way and, having no biblical knowledge I believed this. It didn't seem like a big deal to be rebaptized. What was the harm in doing it, I thought? Only years later, did I understand that it put me in the position of doubting my salvation and putting me in the position of constantly doubting my salvation and asking if there was anything else I missed that God might throw me into hell for. Thus began a fear-based walk.

[ILG]

So then you can see that the REAL issue is not accusing others of legalism but determining what the bible says.

That is why there are so many different denominations calling themselves Christian. But I would never say that people in OP denominations are all going to hell based on a technicality.

[ILG]

Fair enough. I believe opposite. May the Lord reveal the truth as He sees fit.

That is fair enough too. The only bone I have to pick is veering from the path of salvation by grace through faith. Once you start putting little conditions on it it produces a fear based religion.

[ILG]

Prax, it won't matter, they won't see.

Nothing like having eyes but not seeing, having ears and not hearing.

Likewise, my friend.

[Ferd]

Really, all one need do is carry your assertions to their conclusion to see that what has been given you is a vengeful, spiteful, petty, known God; not the Master of the Universe. Not Love. Pray tell, what happens to those who have--gasp--had, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit proclaimed over their water baptism, in your--pardon me--twisted model?

dude, unless you believe everyone everywhere is saved regardless of their belief system, then you are no different from OPs with the exception that you have moved the line to some other place.


if you say that christians who have been baptized in the titles are saved, but people who practice Shintoism arent, then you are exactly the same as those you accuse. Your line has just shifted a bit.

It is the bible, not me that says "If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost"

[Steve Epley]

dude, unless you believe everyone everywhere is saved regardless of their belief system, then you are no different from OPs with the exception that you have moved the line to some other place.


if you say that christians who have been baptized in the titles are saved, but people who practice Shintoism arent, then you are exactly the same as those you accuse. Your line has just shifted a bit.

It is the bible, not me that says "If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost"

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

[Ferd]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

Amen.I agree with You Brother Epley.


What Brother Epley said is no more harsh than the person that says, "only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are saved."


the differerence is ONLY in where we draw the line.

[jfrog]

Amen.I agree with You Brother Epley.


What Brother Epley said is no more harsh than the person that says, "only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are saved."


the differerence is ONLY in where we draw the line.

:thumbsup

[kclee4jc]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

amen

[ILG]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

And obeying long hair on women, and skirts, and no jewelry and no beards on men.

Because see, people don't do those things to GET saved, they do them BECAUSE they are saved. But if they don't do them, they are lost. So, I guess they keep doing them to keep saved. Because all bobbed hair women are going to the lake of fire. Circular logic. Round and round. :beatdeadhorse

[kclee4jc]

And obeying long hair on women, and skirts, and no jewelry and no beards on men.

Because see, people don't do those things to GET saved, they do them BECAUSE they are saved. But if they don't do them, they are lost. So, I guess they keep doing them to keep saved. Because all bobbed hair women are going to the lake of fire. Circular logic. Round and round. :beatdeadhorse

In another thread ILG said

I cut myself off from abuse from any group or person if it gets too bad. (I have a fault in that I sometimes let it go on too long before I remove myself.)

So what about those people that you abuse and belittle....over and over and over and over...

You are not helping anyone nor are you trying to. You aren't persuading anyone either. You are just being intentionally obnoxious to people who still believe truth because you hate them for standing for what you wont.

[ILG]

In another thread ILG said

So what about those people that you abuse and belittle....over and over and over and over...

You are not helping anyone nor are you trying to. You aren't persuading anyone either. You are just being intentionally obnoxious to people who still believe truth because you hate them for standing for what you wont.

Having an opinion and stating it is not the same thing as abuse. But here, in this quote you accuse me of not trying to help anyone and being intentionally obnoxious and hating people. None of which is true. So, I will remove myself from that. That is abusive.

[shazeep]

shaz - you really are all over the board. As you say, a post is sometimes hard to understand.
However, many times when I read your posts, I wonder if you believe that it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and rise from the dead for us to be saved.
Can you address this?yes, i definitely believe that that was necessary. but i have seen that we have been given a distorted image of how to accept that as a functional, daily reality, applicable to ones 'walk.' It took 20 years for me to see that i was surrounded by believers, frozen in place--well, except for some of the quite older believers, who i noticed seemed to be the least accusing of others.

[kclee4jc]

Having an opinion and stating it is not the same thing as abuse. But here, in this quote you accuse me of not trying to help anyone and being intentionally obnoxious and hating people. None of which is true. So, I will remove myself from that. That is abusive.

If this was the only one of your posts that I had read then I would agree with you. The truth is evident though when reading just a small portion of your posts.

[ILG]

If this was the only one of your posts that I had read then I would agree with you. The truth is evident though when reading just a small portion of your posts.

I do say things like "I believe the OP groups to be legalistic in nature" and stuff like that. But I don't think I have ever outright accused someone to their face of being a legalistic obnoxious hater.

[kclee4jc]

ok

[AR Pastor]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

AMEN to that Brother

[shazeep]

Prax, it won't matter, they won't see.

Nothing like having eyes but not seeing, having ears and not hearing.good point. if the model you are using right now works for you, i wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind. i will say that i spent 20 years applying that verse to others, before i realized that i was to apply it to myself. Only. If you put this label on anyone else, then you are just an accuser, are you not?

If you reflect on the Eskimo/Priest scenario, see that the priest was not demonstrating a better way to the Eskimo, thus drawing him (and i mean, like a magnet--people should be coming to you for more, not the other way around) to himself; he was telling him what he should do, no 'service' involved. And we wonder why missionaries get killed. It is because they dealt people death. (and yes, evil people may want you dead simply because you have life, and demonstrate it unfailingly, thus making them feel inadequate--different scenario)

i can't say that i was 'blind' as a Pentecostal--i was a new Christian; so of course i was blind. Now i see. Grasp why Christ said, "You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me."

[ILG]

good point. if the model you are using right now works for you, i wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind. i will say that i spent 20 years applying that verse to others, before i realized that i was to apply it to myself. Only. If you put this label on anyone else, then you are just an accuser, are you not?


Right. Only in applying this to myself did I begin to see.

[shazeep]

That is fair enough too. The only bone I have to pick is veering from the path of salvation by grace through faith. Once you start putting little conditions on it it produces a fear based religion.[I]This[/] is ILG being bitter and evil, or whatever? :lol ok

[shazeep]

If this was the only one of your posts that I had read then I would agree with you. The truth is evident though when reading just a small portion of your posts.and then you woke up, wadr...an evil way to put "that is just your opinion, and smells like an attack to me." I don't recall reading this from ILG. ever. me, maybe.

[shazeep]

dude, unless you believe everyone everywhere is saved regardless of their belief system, then you are no different from OPs with the exception that you have moved the line to some other place.


if you say that christians who have been baptized in the titles are saved, but people who practice Shintoism arent, then you are exactly the same as those you accuse. Your line has just shifted a bit.

It is the bible, not me that says "If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost"hmm, to that i would reply that it is not my business to judge other peoples' salvation. That is between them and God, however they see Him. Shinto is a pagan religion, so off to a bad start, imo; but that does not mean that some Shinto's may not have spiritually discovered "pick up your cross," which after all is just how we say "sacrifice yourself so that others may see."

Yes, i have moved the line--off the page, and into the spiritual--i would like to believe--which to me is just how we say "into the everyday human transactions of life." Now, relating that to your quote, i read "if being the bigger person in a difficult matter eludes you, it is because you have no clue." Would you accept that?

[shazeep]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.Amen to that! And this includes the son who said he would not go work in the vineyard...and the sheep who did not understand how they had been included, etc. These people weren't perfect, by your model. They didn't have your holiness standards. They never said any of those words. They just did the right thing, and followed the one way.

[ILG]

hmm, to that i would reply that it is not my business to judge other peoples' salvation. That is between them and God, however they see Him.

:thumbsup

[shazeep]

In another thread ILG said



So what about those people that you abuse and belittle....over and over and over and over...

You are not helping anyone nor are you trying to. You aren't persuading anyone either. You are just being intentionally obnoxious to people who still believe truth because you hate them for standing for what you wont.May not be persuading anyone, but 100% correct, imo. And btw, show me the ILG post that mirrors this for vitriol :lol good luck with that.

[NotforSale]

This thread was a "yes i do" "no I dont" accounting of the members of the forum. until YOU came along with a gallon of gas and a torch and did violence to the peacful little thread.


talk about hypocrisy.

YOU are the one that devolved this thread and now you run off on a tantrum about how OPs are haters?

the only person here depicting the kind of vitriol you are pointing at other is YOU the advocate of abandoning religion.


blather

Peaceful little Thread?:toofunny

Ferd, you need to take a little trip to the Middle East, where this all started. This is the most violent and volatile area on our Planet, where people are slaughtering each other in the name of Religion.

This is the problem with most American Christians: They see through the corrupted lens of our Culture, where we go to Church on Sunday and become God's friend if we'll follow a certain Tradition or Teaching. ALL Religions in the World do this in one form or another!

Don't forget, Ferd, Jesus Christ was murdered by the Religious. He made them furious, calling them blind hypocrites, full of dead men's bones, even though they were the most well versed in Scripture. In the United States, we have made Jesus into a United States figure, based upon a Sunday School message, a coloring book, or the latest movie.

When the Thief of the cross was pardoned, no Religion on Earth was there to appease his death bed confession. A man sought for mercy, and mercy was given. But to you "Know it All's", you would be trying to yank him off of the cross for a quick baptism, then you would scream in his face until he spoke in tongues.

Religion is the bondage of holding mercy to yourself.

[NotforSale]

And that, dear misguided soul, is a flat out lie.

Whatever tangent you have went on, after you left pentecost, it has destroyed you.

Carry on.

It is? Give me an example. So, when does God mercy apply to someone? Go ahead and tell us. The exact moment.

If you can't tell me, specifically, then your doctrine is not valid or even truth.

No offense, but I've been delivered, not destroyed. Lies only carry us into Religion, where God is our Friend, and not the Friend of others.

[n david]

This thread was a "yes i do" "no I dont" accounting of the members of the forum. until YOU came along with a gallon of gas and a torch and did violence to the peacful little thread.

talk about hypocrisy.

YOU are the one that devolved this thread and now you run off on a tantrum about how OPs are haters?

the only person here depicting the kind of vitriol you are pointing at other is YOU the advocate of abandoning religion.

blather
:thumbsup

[NotforSale]

Prax, it won't matter, they won't see.

Nothing like having eyes but not seeing, having ears and not hearing.

That's right! Religion has blinded you! Religion has caused you not to hear! That's exactly what Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees!

[shazeep]

amen to that. as long as it serves you, by all means keep it. but if/when you keep noticing strife around it, at least examine it, wadr. i mean strife among believers, as you will of course cause the evil to strive if you are practicing correctly.

[Ferd]

hmm, to that i would reply that it is not my business to judge other peoples' salvation. That is between them and God, however they see Him. Shinto is a pagan religion, so off to a bad start, imo; but that does not mean that some Shinto's may not have spiritually discovered "pick up your cross," which after all is just how we say "sacrifice yourself so that others may see."

Yes, i have moved the line--off the page, and into the spiritual--i would like to believe--which to me is just how we say "into the everyday human transactions of life." Now, relating that to your quote, i read "if being the bigger person in a difficult matter eludes you, it is because you have no clue." Would you accept that?

honestly with all respect, I dont understand what your saying. i do think that at the end of the day we are miles from one another. I believe (because my eyeballs have seen) that there are absolutes in scripture. I further believe that it is not mean or nasty or hateful to agree with scripture about those absolutes.

There is one door, and anyone trying to enter via some other way is a theif.

But that doesnt mean I hate the lost or glory in thier demise.

THAT doesnt mean when some former Apostolic comes along and tells me I am an idiot, that I am going to just smile and tell them blessed be.... or whatever.

[Ferd]

Peaceful little Thread?:toofunny

Ferd, you need to take a little trip to the Middle East, where this all started. This is the most violent and volatile area on our Planet, where people are slaughtering each other in the name of Religion.

This is the problem with most American Christians: They see through the corrupted lens of our Culture, where we go to Church on Sunday and become God's friend if we'll follow a certain Tradition or Teaching. ALL Religions in the World do this in one form or another!

Don't forget, Ferd, Jesus Christ was murdered by the Religious. He made them furious, calling them blind hypocrites, full of dead men's bones, even though they were the most well versed in Scripture. In the United States, we have made Jesus into a United States figure, based upon a Sunday School message, a coloring book, or the latest movie.

When the Thief of the cross was pardoned, no Religion on Earth was there to appease his death bed confession. A man sought for mercy, and mercy was given. But to you "Know it All's", you would be trying to yank him off of the cross for a quick baptism, then you would scream in his face until he spoke in tongues.

Religion is the bondage of holding mercy to yourself.

quit changing the subject dude.

YOU tossed a molotov coctail into a room full of OPs then decry the OPs for getting on your case.

Frankly the middle east has nothing to do with this thread. the only thing the middle east has to do with anything here is your attempt to use it to deflect from your hypocracy.

[NotforSale]

amen to that. as long as it serves you, by all means keep it. but if/when you keep noticing strife around it, at least examine it, wadr. i mean strife among believers, as you will of course cause the evil to strive if you are practicing correctly.

I have tried to point this out so many times on this Forum. After 35 years in the UPCI, the word, "United", became a misnomer with me. When I was a pastor, the phone would ring, and it would be another pastor who did nothing but bash the neighboring UPC Church.

If it wasn't Standards, it was "Sheep Stealing", or compromised preaching. I was so sick of hearing this nonsense, I finally stopped answering the phone so I didn't have to listen to this Religious rhetoric that is so prevalent in Christianity.

Regardless of what people believe, this strife runs deep in the realm of Religion for one, simple reason; Facts based upon Myth.

[NotforSale]

quit changing the subject dude.

YOU tossed a molotov coctail into a room full of OPs then decry the OPs for getting on your case.

Frankly the middle east has nothing to do with this thread. the only thing the middle east has to do with anything here is your attempt to use it to deflect from your hypocracy.

Exactly what Jesus did!! You know, when he went to Church and did a little "Table Flipping" with a little whip to add to the cocktail!

The Middle East has plenty to do with this subject. It's where your Religion came from.

[AR Pastor]

Thank God for men of God and churches who still hold to the Word of God and the truth.

No one is saved outside of the Acts 2"38 message and living a life of holiness.NO ONE.

[NotforSale]

Thank God for men of God and churches who still hold to the Word of God and the truth.

No one is saved outside of the Acts 2"38 message and living a life of holiness.NO ONE.

Another blind victim of Religion. Sad.

[AR Pastor]

Another blind victim of Religion. Sad.

No sir you are the one whose is blind.

I have God's Word right here and study it daily. I know what we in the UPC and other good oneness holiness churches preach is truth and there is no other way.

[Ferd]

Exactly what Jesus did!! You know, when he went to Church and did a little "Table Flipping" with a little whip to add to the cocktail!

The Middle East has plenty to do with this subject. It's where your Religion came from.

so now you have a god complex? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz


you sir are nothing like Jesus.

[Sean]

NFS, I have a question for you that if you would, just relax and answer. Now you said you were a UPC pastor for years. I would like to ask you for a list of every unbiblical thing that you can think of that is taught from the ministry's official doctrines. If you could itemize them it would be great. I will not rebut your post. I just want to see your point of view.(please dont talk about carnal stuff like gossipy preachers, etc., just doctrinal stuff)...thanks, I will wait on your reply.

[shazeep]

honestly with all respect, I dont understand what your saying. i do think that at the end of the day we are miles from one another. I believe (because my eyeballs have seen) that there are absolutes in scripture...Ok, well please understand that i just came here and read this little mutual admiration society back-slapping thread, and decided that a little disagreement--just to be disagreeable--might provide some illumination. I believe the same words you believe; but possibly i just believe them for me, and (try to) apply grace to everyone else. I personally have some pretty extreme 'holiness' standards; that i don't expect you, or anyone else on the planet, to agree with. If i, perchance, happen to hit on a truly better way (of interpreting Scripture), then i expect it to shine, and attract--and if not, then maybe i am the one still seeking in that area.

Ah, the absolutes--tell you what, gimme a Scriptural absolute, and i'll give you the Scriptural denial of its absolution, what do you say? Surely you have discerned that for every Scripture, there is another that seems to contradict it? That the context is what matters?


I further believe that it is not mean or nasty or hateful to agree with scripture about those absolutes. Personally, you mean? A big amen--oh, but you really mean that i have to agree to your 'absolutes,' right?

I have a question for you: would you be offended if i came to your church in a pair of shorts and flip-flops, and nothing else? How about if i brought my wife, and she were dressed the same way? No top?

There is one door, and anyone trying to enter via some other way is a theif.Yes, i agree--and the door is not contained in words; how you hold your mouth makes no difference. Still one door, tho, yes.
"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me."
THAT doesnt mean when some former Apostolic comes along and tells me I am an idiot, that I am going to just smile and tell them blessed be.... or whatever.hey, i can relate...but, how do you offend a Christian, Ferd?

[NotforSale]

No sir you are the one whose is blind.

I have God's Word right here and study it daily. I know what we in the UPC and other good oneness holiness churches preach is truth and there is no other way.

Like I said, you are blind and deceived. You are basing Facts on Myth, which is nothing but Spectral Evidence. Until you can "Prove" your truth, you are following a fantasy of ideas that cannot be verified by substance, experience, and reality.

[NotforSale]

so now you have a god complex? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz


you sir are nothing like Jesus.

Actually, I am like Jesus. We are both Human.

That's the problem with Religion; people are trying NOT to be Human.

[n david]

Actually, I am like Jesus. We are both Human.
:toofunny

[AR Pastor]

Like I said, you are blind and deceived. You are basing Facts on Myth, which is nothing but Spectral Evidence. Until you can "Prove" your truth, you are following a fantasy of ideas that cannot be verified by substance, experience, and reality.

So you sir do not believe God's Word is real?

[ILG]

I have tried to point this out so many times on this Forum. After 35 years in the UPCI, the word, "United", became a misnomer with me. When I was a pastor, the phone would ring, and it would be another pastor who did nothing but bash the neighboring UPC Church.

If it wasn't Standards, it was "Sheep Stealing", or compromised preaching. I was so sick of hearing this nonsense, I finally stopped answering the phone so I didn't have to listen to this Religious rhetoric that is so prevalent in Christianity.

Regardless of what people believe, this strife runs deep in the realm of Religion for one, simple reason; Facts based upon Myth.

We pastored too, for 10 years. I think you get to see very interesting things when you pastor.

[MawMaw]

Amen. Carlton Pearson's doctrine. Not one person from Pentecost until the church leaves is saved withou obeying Acts 2:38.

Yes, indeed. :nod

Not sure why there are those
who buck against scripture that is
so plain to understand.

[AR Pastor]

I have pastored for around 20 years been in the ministry 30 years.

See a lot of things, not all of them good, but God is always good. And His Word is true.

[NotforSale]

We pastored too, for 10 years. I think you get to see very interesting things when you pastor.

Amen! After 20 years of doing this very stressful endeavor, I finally had had enough of Religion.

In fact, the light came on after years and years of watching people do what they do, all while they are "Walking in the Truth". I saw in myself a great fallacy, preaching against certain things that only end up being the same thing, in another way.

Human Beings can't stand not "Knowing", so they seek for someone who will go into the beyond, even if the idea is fake.

[ILG]

Amen! After 20 years of doing this very stressful endeavor, I finally had had enough of Religion.

In fact, the light came on after years and years of watching people do what they do, all while they are "Walking in the Truth". I saw in myself a great fallacy, preaching against certain things that only end up being the same thing, in another way.

Human Beings can't stand not "Knowing", so they seek for someone who will go into the beyond, even if the idea is fake.

All people have sin that they are struggling with, even after salvation (but salvation delivers and strengthens one for the fight). What if, because the Bible teaches against gluttony, a religion made people get on a scale and if their BMI was so far up, they would tell them they were going to hell? And told others they were backslid? Then, when people said "You shouldn't say when people are saved or not" this person could say "It's Bible brother!! Do you want to not teach what the Bible teaches????" Completely missing the point, that salvation does not belong to someone else to measure. And that salvation is by grace. People focus on something so much, they convince themselves that God does too, just because it's in the Bible.

[shazeep]

yup.
Yes, indeed. :nod

Not sure why there are those
who buck against scripture that is
so plain to understand.it seems to me that it is not Scripture being bucked against, necessarily, so much as others' understanding of it, and the lack of tolerance of this. I think it can be really easy to say "No one makes it unless they obey the following instructions; __________________. Without, possibly, really fully understanding those instructions, but rather defending the interpretation that one (generally) was first given by some trusted senior. Doesn't mean they were wrong, and another right; but it may indicate that there are more than one way to interpret. I think there usually is. How many Names does Christ have? Are you sure? What if the word translated name there is better translated essence, to denote a spiritual acceptance? God is Love; would you condemn someone, some sheep who was told ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world' because they were not baptized according to your standards? Is the question.

[FlamingZword]

Amen! After 20 years of doing this very stressful endeavor, I finally had had enough of Religion.

In fact, the light came on after years and years of watching people do what they do, all while they are "Walking in the Truth". I saw in myself a great fallacy, preaching against certain things that only end up being the same thing, in another way.

Human Beings can't stand not "Knowing", so they seek for someone who will go into the beyond, even if the idea is fake.

You are a cloud without water, carried about the winds

A tree whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

A raging wave of the sea, foaming out your own shame.

A wandering star, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

enjoy the darkness.

[Carl]

You are a cloud without water, carried about the winds

A tree whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

A raging wave of the sea, foaming out your own shame.

A wandering star, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

enjoy the darkness.

My that was harsh!

[Jason B]

How many of y'all attend an Apostolic church? By that I mean they teach Jesus is the ONE person of the Godhead and baptize in Jesus Name and believe the Holy Ghost baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Just wondering?

Not me.

Your definition of "apostolic" is sketchy to say the least and a product of the 20th century, not the 1st.

[houston]

You are just being intentionally obnoxious to people who still believe truth because you hate them for standing for what you wont.

Arrogant and condescending. BAHAHAHAHA

[Jason B]

My that was harsh!

Harsh but true. Not for Sale should heed the warning.

[shazeep]

oh, please. the post simply has not been comprehended if anyone feels that way. you guys are not the only valid interpretation of Scripture. that reply is horrible.
My that was harsh!Ya, that was harsh. When someone claims to have gotten some illumination from an experience, "i saw the light," it might heed one to understand which light was seen. Grace is not religion, so there strikes me as little value in it, or need in defending it that strongly. It's how we get introduced to Christ. Grow past it. The Holy Spirit will not let you stray too far. It doesn't mean giving up your standards, i can tell you that--my standards would make you faint, wadr. Yikes, by all means, lose your religion. :lol

[FlamingZword]

My that was harsh!

I am very tolerant of atheists and unbelievers for they have always been in darkness and do not know the glory of the Gospel, however I have little patience for those who once having tasted the heavenly gift, have decided to go back like the dog to his vomit.
having preferred the mud than being washed in Christ.

It would have been better for them never to have known the way of truth.

[shazeep]

o...k...

[jfrog]

I am very tolerant of atheists and unbelievers for they have always been in darkness and do not know the glory of the Gospel, however I have little patience for those who once having tasted the heavenly gift, have decided to go back like the dog to his vomit.
having preferred the mud than being washed in Christ.

It would have been better for them never to have known the way of truth.

I can assure you that not one of us is where we were before coming to Christ...

[MawMaw]

yup.
it seems to me that it is not Scripture being bucked against, necessarily, so much as others' understanding of it, and the lack of tolerance of this. I think it can be really easy to say "No one makes it unless they obey the following instructions; __________________. Without, possibly, really fully understanding those instructions, but rather defending the interpretation that one (generally) was first given by some trusted senior. Doesn't mean they were wrong, and another right; but it may indicate that there are more than one way to interpret. I think there usually is. How many Names does Christ have? Are you sure? What if the word translated name there is better translated essence, to denote a spiritual acceptance? God is Love; would you condemn someone, some sheep who was told ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world' because they were not baptized according to your standards? Is the question.

Sure it is. What is so hard to understand about Acts 2:38 instructions?
God made the plan, not any organization. There is only one right way, not
several. Christ has only one name, Jesus. Everything we do in word or in deed, is to be done in that blessed Name. Baptism included. Yes, God is love, but He is also a God of vengeance and wrath.

[shazeep]

Sure it is. What is so hard to understand about Acts 2:38 instructions?
why spiritual children seem to insist on such a literal translation, like children will do. If i told you 'wait here for the present,' would you still sit there all day? Understand why Christ said You pore over the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet they speak of Me.

God made the plan, not any organization.wadr, you are following a script that has been manufactured for you, that you call "required," or "normal," or "the only way," when you do not know. And if the men who taught you would have been honest, they would have indicated that they did not know, either. What did they tell you about the schism that split the church at the Councils of Trent? Are you sure you landed on the right side of that one? I am convinced you did not. Those who taught you signed a pact in order to be ordained, swearing to uphold doctrine regardless of any future spiritual unction. A deal with the devil.

There is only one right way, not several.oh, i def agree. and your religion, the framework you hang your faith on, has nothing whatsoever to do with it. God does not care in the slightest what religion you are, and will judge your heart.

Christ has only one name, Jesus.You really think so? how do you know? But they call on the same Name in Creation-centered Chritianity, anyway. Please see that i at least, am only suggesting to you that you may wish to go back to everything you assume is unshakeable, and give it a little shake. God is not going to drop you. A death centered religion is for suckers. Christ rose, and lives.

Everything we do in word or in deed, is to be done in that blessed Name. Baptism included. Yes, God is love, but He is also a God of vengeance and wrath.funny, reading that last part, even though you have listed Love first, i distinctly hear it coming last. The OT is over; we are in a different dispensation now--that of Grace. Trust that God delights in your unique way of producing fruit. Wadr, i could tell you where i hear all the vengeance and wrath coming from...

As the believers go, so goes the nation. Don't believe me; but you might read the Harbinger. Never mind, even, about anyone's religion, for the moment. Your leaders have declared a curse for their own--right out of Isaiah--and included you in it. I think the online preview would give you most of the info,
http://books.google.com/books?id=nt2gYevSZrMC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=%22The+Breach.+The+nation+that+had+long+known+b lessing+and+security+witnesses+the+failure+of+its+ defenses.+Its+walls+of+protection+are+broken+throu gh,+its+national+security+is+breached,+and+its+ill usion+of+invincibility+shattered.+The+days+of+the+ Harbingers+begin.%22&source=bl&ots=glrDG72T8k&sig=R_9cNQcdKhDmLkUmDYiLmL3AUb0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z7mqU6bCMMqjyAS4moHIDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Breach.%20The%20nation%20that%20had%20l ong%20known%20blessing%20and%20security%20witnesse s%20the%20failure%20of%20its%20defenses.%20Its%20w alls%20of%20protection%20are%20broken%20through%2C %20its%20national%20security%20is%20breached%2C%20 and%20its%20illusion%20of%20invincibility%20shatte red.%20The%20days%20of%20the%20Harbingers%20begin. %22&f=false

i mean dang, we're swirling around the bottom of the bowl--we can yack about ones religion anytime. recognizing a more spiritually awake and alive conception of Christ does not require that you abandon any core beliefs, anyway--you can hang on to most of that yack for as long as you like.

[shazeep]

When did I came that you may have life, and more abundantly
turn into I can't wait to die, and go to heaven?

[aegsm76]

shaz - do you believe the Bible is the word of God or the work of men?

[shazeep]

the inspired work of God, definitely. Warts and all. I follow it implicitly, perhaps, more than explicitly. Many passages that others might read literally, i at least see other reflections in--and i would say that this is an accepted way to study Scripture. Who would deny the lessons implicit in the Israelites 40 years in the Sinai, by comparing it to a believer's present-day walk? Etc. My strong belief is that any time you read about some physical act or situation in Scripture, there is a spiritual parallel and principle that is being imparted, but it must be discerned with your third eye, and beware someone interpreting it for you, imo. They may just be getting in the Spirit's way. At the very least, be open to other views--if your views are the full spiritual truth, no fire can touch them; and if they are not, it can be very difficult to admit. Our society is so completely corrupted, Religion included, that Scripture says we are going to be speechless at how far off we are.

[ILG]

God said "Draw the Drapes" to two men.

One proceeded to pull the drapes shut and one sat down to draw them on a sheet of paper.

Both drew the drapes. Shall the one who pull them shut say to the one who drew them on paper he is better and more holy? Or does it only matter how God decides to measure the righteousness of the men based on their faith?

[NotforSale]

Harsh but true. Not for Sale should heed the warning.

What warning? You're the one who believes in lies.

[NotforSale]

You are a cloud without water, carried about the winds

A tree whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

A raging wave of the sea, foaming out your own shame.

A wandering star, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

enjoy the darkness.

This message is from the Dark Ages. Sounds like you're on a "Witch Hunt", where innocent people are executed with unproven evidence.

[NotforSale]

I am very tolerant of atheists and unbelievers for they have always been in darkness and do not know the glory of the Gospel, however I have little patience for those who once having tasted the heavenly gift, have decided to go back like the dog to his vomit.
having preferred the mud than being washed in Christ.

It would have been better for them never to have known the way of truth.


FW, it is you that is living in a lie. You need to find a mirror.

[KeptByTheWord]

God said "Draw the Drapes" to two men.

One proceeded to pull the drapes shut and one sat down to draw them on a sheet of paper.

Both drew the drapes. Shall the one who pull them shut say to the one who drew them on paper he is better and more holy? Or does it only matter how God decides to measure the righteousness of the men based on their faith?

GREAT question, and no easy answer here, except that GOD is the final judge, regardless of how right or wrong we think we are.

[KeptByTheWord]

God said "Draw the Drapes" to two men.

One proceeded to pull the drapes shut and one sat down to draw them on a sheet of paper.

Both drew the drapes. Shall the one who pull them shut say to the one who drew them on paper he is better and more holy? Or does it only matter how God decides to measure the righteousness of the men based on their faith?

I'm thinking of Cain and Able in this illustration above. Both Cain and Abel brought a sacrifice, but God chose which one was acceptable. Cain felt so grieved that his interpretation was wrong that he killed his brother over it, and God must have felt somewhat responsible, because He didn't kill Cain over his sin of being a murderer, but instead allowed him to live, albeit with a mark on his life, so that no one would kill him. I wonder if there is a parable to the complex question you posed from which we might draw from.