Assemblies of God 2013 Statistics Released

[oneinkhorn]

Assemblies of God 2013 Statistics Released

http://ifphc.wordpress.com/2014/06/17/assemblies-of-god-2013-statistics-released/

The Assemblies of God (AG) is one of the few major denominations in the United States to show continuing growth. The AG has now experienced 24 consecutive years of growth in the number of U.S. adherents, according to a press release from the AG National Leadership and Resource Center in Springfield, Missouri. The article compares the AG’s growth to the “declining attendance for many other North American evangelical denominations.”

http://ag.org/top/News/index_articledetail.cfm?targetBay=c97d4d5c-a325-4921-9a9e-e9fbddd9cdce&ModID=2&Process=DisplayArticle&RSS_RSSContentID=28142&RSS_OriginatingChannelID=1184&RSS_OriginatingRSSFeedID=3359&RSS_Source=

"The Assemblies of God is growing in America. But the real story is the ethnic transformation of the Assemblies of God. It is becoming less white and more reflective of the ethnic, linguistic and social diversity that exists in the global church."


http://ifphc.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/baptism.jpg

[Dante]

Too bad Apostolic fellowships can't follow suit. The UPCI, PAW, and AAIFOCJ will continue to be predominantly the ethnicity they were founded by, because the Apostolic movement in America is founded on racism and division.

[Michael The Disciple]

To bad the AOG forced all the "Oneness" out of their organization 2 years after it was formed.

[Praxeas]

Too bad Apostolic fellowships can't follow suit. The UPCI, PAW, and AAIFOCJ will continue to be predominantly the ethnicity they were founded by, because the Apostolic movement in America is founded on racism and division.
Yeah...I disagree.

I live in SoCal. Most of my local fellowship is Mexican American with some blacks, whites, filipino and at least one Okinawan

It pretty much represents the racial makeup of this city.

Also most of the blacks go to nearly and traditionally all black churches. That's not our fault. That's where they want to go. We reach out to every race.

In fact, while pointing fingers at the Apostolics, I can take you to several Hispanic congregations, Japanese congregations, Black congregations etc etc and they are NOT Apostolic

[commonsense]

I'm not AOG and have never been AOG but they're doing something right.....

(have had many friends and relatives that were part of the AOG)

[votivesoul]

I'm not AOG and have never been AOG but they're doing something right.....

(have had many friends and relatives that were part of the AOG)

Maybe. But then again, many (not all) AoG churches are watering themselves down so much they differ little from a typical non-denominational evangelical church (Consider how once upon a time nearly 100% of AoG constituents had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then it was decided that just the ministry needed to have received the Holy Spirit and spoken in tongues in order to be licensed, and now? Who knows. When you make the baptism of the Holy Spirit any optional experience subsequent to salvation, no wonder people stop caring enough to seek it.).

With this being the case, since people from all backgrounds and associations like to church shop and hop, numerical growth may only be an indicator of already professing and believing transplants from a non-AoG church.

While it may mean the ranks are swelling, it doesn't necessarily mean the AoG is actually growing in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission (i.e. winning the lost).

[Amanah]

I love my AoG friends, they are awesome people.

I love my UPC family too, here in FL we are very diverse, many black, Hispanic, and other ethnic backgrounds.

We are also having revival, 42 filled with the HG on Pentecost Sunday, people being filled and baptized almost everyweek.

[navygoat1998]

Maybe. But then again, many (not all) AoG churches are watering themselves down so much they differ little from a typical non-denominational evangelical church (Consider how once upon a time nearly 100% of AoG constituents had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then it was decided that just the ministry needed to have received the Holy Spirit and spoken in tongues in order to be licensed, and now? Who knows. When you make the baptism of the Holy Spirit any optional experience subsequent to salvation, no wonder people stop caring enough to seek it.).

With this being the case, since people from all backgrounds and associations like to church shop and hop, numerical growth may only be an indicator of already professing and believing transplants from a non-AoG church.

While it may mean the ranks are swelling, it doesn't necessarily mean the AoG is actually growing in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission (i.e. winning the lost).

We have been in the Assemblies almost from the moment we left UPC, and every church we have been part of has been very Pentecostal. Our church is very Pentecostal and it is a large church, nothing like hearing the throngs of people when the Holy Ghost falls.

I don't disagree with you, but I will say this that the future of the AG will be Spirit filled, about 80 percent of all kids that go to youth camp or any of the camps for that matter come back Baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

[navygoat1998]

I love my AoG friends, they are awesome people.

I love my UPC family too, here in FL we are very diverse, many black, Hispanic, and other ethnic backgrounds.

We are also having revival, 42 filled with the HG on Pentecost Sunday, people being filled and baptized almost everyweek.

:thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

Let's face it - people like to find others like them to fellowship. That is why you see a church made up of one race, like Japanese, or Korean, or Spanish. They can relate to one another because they share similar backgrounds, genetics, and lifestyles. It may or may not have to do with the spiritual aspect of it, but more based on the fact that one Korean can relate to another Korean because of their culture. Their culture may mean more to them than they realize, and seeking fellowship with others who come from the same culture may be comforting to them.

There are others who don't feel the need to draw from their culture to find relationship.

I don't think it should be a mandated, or bad thing to have an all black church, or an all Korean church, or even an all American church!

For example, I have a Korean friend. She loves rice. Her children love rice. Her American husband tolerates it, but really doesn't like eating rice, and loves potatoes. She can't stand potatoes. She would rather eat rice than potatoes. I don't understand that. I love potatoes as a staple food for meals, and she loves rice. There is a cultural taste difference there that comes from her heritage, and one that comes from mine.

I shouldn't expect her to only eat potatoes, and she shouldn't expect me to eat only rice at meals we share together. We accept each other's differences. But my point is, that her culture and who she is, is different from mine. If she chose to go to a Korean-only church, I would understand that. If I choose to go to an All-American church, isn't that okay too?

See.... we try to fit everything and everybody into a nice tight little box, but it really doesn't work that way. Culture, race, background, family... all those things are important in relationships, and instead of judging one another, we should be accepting of our differences. If one culture group wants to worship together, let them. If they have no problem worshiping and fellow shipping with other cultures, than that is great too!

To sum it up... let's accept one another's differences, instead of trying to make them all fit into one tight little box.

[KeptByTheWord]

We have been in the Assemblies almost from the moment we left UPC, and every church we have been part of has been very Pentecostal. Our church is very Pentecostal and it is a large church, nothing like hearing the throngs of people when the Holy Ghost falls.

I don't disagree with you, but I will say this that the future of the AG will be Spirit filled, about 80 percent of all kids that go to youth camp or any of the camps for that matter come back Baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

Oh brother.... those poor kids receiving the HG, and not being baptized in Jesus name. What shall become of them? ;)

Seriously, I rejoice with you to hear of what the Lord is doing in your midst!

[KeptByTheWord]

I love my AoG friends, they are awesome people.

I love my UPC family too, here in FL we are very diverse, many black, Hispanic, and other ethnic backgrounds.

We are also having revival, 42 filled with the HG on Pentecost Sunday, people being filled and baptized almost everyweek.

This is wonderful Sis! Glad to hear it! How have you been? Missed seeing you around!

[KeptByTheWord]

While it may mean the ranks are swelling, it doesn't necessarily mean the AoG is actually growing in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission (i.e. winning the lost).

Your statement "winning the lost" I would like to address.

"Winning the lost" should be something more than just getting people "filled with the spirit". What happens to someone who has received the HG? What about the discliping? What about the percentage of people who receive the HG, and one year later are still living for the Lord? Where are those percentages?

You see, I really feel that discipling is an area that OP has missed out on. Everyone gets excited, hoops and hollers when X number of people receive the HG. But then... what about the followup? How many of those people are discipled, and taught how to be a disciple of Jesus? In my almost 40 years in the OP, I saw that as a huge problem. People would pray around the altar for hours to get someone "filled", but then drop them like a hotcake later when they began to struggle with how to live for the Lord, while moving on to get the next person "filled". I think it is a tragedy.

It's like taking a baby after being born, and struggling to get the baby to begin to drink milk, and then once he takes a drink of the milk, then it would be like taking the milk from the baby and saying okay, here is the meat. You better start eating this now, and shape up quick, or you're outta here. I know this sounds awful, but this is the attitude I saw many take to people who just received the HS, and then expected them immediately to mature on their own.

How many people who receive the HG in a Sunday morning service, are actually still living for the Lord 6 months to a year later? Some will be (if they have families or support )... but a large percentage won't be.

I think discipling is something that should be given much more attention than it is. I know many churches have followups, classes, and things like that, but it sounds better to talk about the "10 who received the HG this morning", then to say, "Folks, let's praise the Lord for the 1 soul who received the HG last year, who is still here, and living for the Lord."

[AR Pastor]

Why would oneness folks care what the AOG is doing. They are preaching false doctrine and are a false church so why would we care what they do?

[navygoat1998]

Why would oneness folks care what the AOG is doing. They are preaching false doctrine and are a false church so why would we care what they do?

:heeheehee

[KeptByTheWord]

Why would oneness folks care what the AOG is doing. They are preaching false doctrine and are a false church so why would we care what they do?

Stay in your foxhole brother. It seems to be a safe place for you. Don't let anyone try to tell you that your foxhole is in enemy territory. It's okay though. You're safe in your little foxhole, that's what you believe, and that's all that matters. :)

[AR Pastor]

Stay in your foxhole brother. It seems to be a safe place for you. Don't let anyone try to tell you that your foxhole is in enemy territory. It's okay though. You're safe in your little foxhole, that's what you believe, and that's all that matters. :)

This makes no sense to me.

Yes the enemy is all around and false doctrine is an enemy to God's people.

Yes I am in a safe place in God's church.



The world of oneness Pentecost that I know is much different than what I see here, but it is anything but small. There are so many meetings and conf. that still preach the truth I could never attend them all.

[KeptByTheWord]

This makes no sense to me.

Yes the enemy is all around and false doctrine is an enemy to God's people.

Yes I am in a safe place in God's church.



The world of oneness Pentecost that I know is much different than what I see here, but it is anything but small. There are so many meetings and conf. that still preach the truth I could never attend them all.

We are all in a war, brother. It's just that you believe the particular place (or church) that you are in is the only safe place. That's the issue I was trying to address.

There is more than one safe place :)

But I'm content to let you stay there, as long as you don't pass your judgments too freely around, and condemn everyone else who is not in the same "foxhole" as you :) God Bless.

[n david]

We have been in the Assemblies almost from the moment we left UPC, and every church we have been part of has been very Pentecostal. Our church is very Pentecostal and it is a large church, nothing like hearing the throngs of people when the Holy Ghost falls.

I don't disagree with you, but I will say this that the future of the AG will be Spirit filled, about 80 percent of all kids that go to youth camp or any of the camps for that matter come back Baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
:thumbsup

[Reader]

Why would oneness folks care what the AOG is doing. They are preaching false doctrine and are a false church so why would we care what they do?

Do you realize how funny your post sounds as you obviously cared enough to deliberately click on this discussion and then take time to post more than once. I thought you were oneness? :heeheehee

[Reader]

The world of oneness Pentecost that I know is much different than what I see here, but it is anything but small. There are so many meetings and conf. that still preach the truth I could never attend them all.

It actually is small if you compare it to OPs in general. Stop excluding your bearded brethren from fellowship and you'll see.

[Reader]

With this being the case, since people from all backgrounds and associations like to church shop and hop, numerical growth may only be an indicator of already professing and believing transplants from a non-AoG church.

While it may mean the ranks are swelling, it doesn't necessarily mean the AoG is actually growing in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission (i.e. winning the lost).

The exact same may be said of UPC growth, PAW, ALJC & all other Apostolic organizations.

[Timmy]

Why would oneness folks care what the AOG is doing. They are preaching false doctrine and are a false church so why would we care what they do?

Speaking of which, maybe you could lend a hand to your brothers (er, are they your brothers? :hmmm) and help them out with a little doctrine problem they're having. No, not the BIG doctrine problem -- how many Gods there are -- no, this is pretty simple, in comparison. It's healing.

It's one of the AG's 16 Fundamental Truths, and it's even one of their 4 "Cardinal Doctrines", which they say are "essential to the church's core mission of reaching the world for Christ". And yet they have this nagging problem with this "essential" "truth". Here is Fundamental Truth #12. Divine Healing:

Divine healing is an integral part of the gospel. Deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all believers.

Isaiah 53:4,5
Matthew 8:16,17
James 5:14-16

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#12


It's part of the gospel. Provided for in the atonement. It is the privilege of all believers.

Isn't that nice? Here's the problem: not all believers are healed. They know it. They say it, in a position paper. They say they don't know why!

Think I'm kidding? See for yourself: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/PP_Divine_Healing.pdf.

But it gets worse. Having called it an "essential" doctrine, and having said that healing is "provided for in the atonement", here's the big question: If one of the provisions of the atonement doesn't always happen (healing), how can you know if the other provision, namely salvation, always happens? How can anyone know if their sins are really "atoned for"?

So. Can you help them out? Certainly, you APs don't have this problem. ;)

[AR Pastor]

AOG people are not my brethren. The are not in God's family. They have refused His name.

[navygoat1998]

AOG people are not my brethren. The are not in God's family. They have refused His name.

:heeheehee

[Timmy]

AOG people are not my brethren. The are not in God's family. They have refused His name.

They have refused His name?!? When did this happen?!

[AR Pastor]

When they refused Jesus name baptism. Anyone not baptized in Jesus name are not in the family and their sins have not been remitted.

To be in the family on must be born again of the water and the spirit.

[navygoat1998]

When they refused Jesus name baptism. Anyone not baptized in Jesus name are not in the family and their sins have not been remitted.

To be in the family on must be born again of the water and the spirit.

:heeheehee

[KeptByTheWord]

:heeheehee

If I may quote our departed Brother Manzell... "you are in very much trouble".... :heeheehee

[Amanah]

This is wonderful Sis! Glad to hear it! How have you been? Missed seeing you around!

Thank you for asking after me KeptByTheWord, I always appreciate your thoughtful and kind posts. I'm doing pretty well, busy with work, church, and home projects.

[LOVE JESUS]

They have the Holy Ghost. How are they receiving the Holy Ghost if they are lost? My My My!!! I got saved and filled with the Holy Ghost back in 1961 in the A/G church. I still remember my first pastor and his family and even remember the names of the ladies who pick me up so I could go to church- I was just a 15 year old girl who fell in love with Jesus. I could NEVER say they weren't in the family of God.

AOG people are not my brethren. The are not in God's family. They have refused His name.

[kclee4jc]

AOG people are not my brethren. The are not in God's family. They have refused His name.

I can't call them brethren as far as NT covenant, but I do call them friends. Someone was criticizing Bro Crawford Coon the other day for calling a trinitarian brother...his response was "if I missed him in Christ I caught him in Adam". Lol


But I do agree with you...it bothers me when Pentecostals make such a big deal out of trying to give an image that they are no different Than any other denomination and go around calling anyone and everyone brethren. I attended an AoG church for about 2 years before I came to truth. I am even close to the leadership of that church now (and our church is right beside theirs!). We have wonderful discussions about The Lord And the Holy Ghost. However I have made it very clear and they understand, that while I love and respect them and count them friends, I believe that one MUST be water baptized in Jesus Name to be saved. They know in feel and what our church teaches about holiness too and seem to respect it.

[Amanah]

Your statement "winning the lost" I would like to address.

"Winning the lost" should be something more than just getting people "filled with the spirit". What happens to someone who has received the HG? What about the discliping? What about the percentage of people who receive the HG, and one year later are still living for the Lord? Where are those percentages?

You see, I really feel that discipling is an area that OP has missed out on. Everyone gets excited, hoops and hollers when X number of people receive the HG. But then... what about the followup? How many of those people are discipled, and taught how to be a disciple of Jesus? In my almost 40 years in the OP, I saw that as a huge problem. People would pray around the altar for hours to get someone "filled", but then drop them like a hotcake later when they began to struggle with how to live for the Lord, while moving on to get the next person "filled". I think it is a tragedy.

It's like taking a baby after being born, and struggling to get the baby to begin to drink milk, and then once he takes a drink of the milk, then it would be like taking the milk from the baby and saying okay, here is the meat. You better start eating this now, and shape up quick, or you're outta here. I know this sounds awful, but this is the attitude I saw many take to people who just received the HS, and then expected them immediately to mature on their own.

How many people who receive the HG in a Sunday morning service, are actually still living for the Lord 6 months to a year later? Some will be (if they have families or support )... but a large percentage won't be.

I think discipling is something that should be given much more attention than it is. I know many churches have followups, classes, and things like that, but it sounds better to talk about the "10 who received the HG this morning", then to say, "Folks, let's praise the Lord for the 1 soul who received the HG last year, who is still here, and living for the Lord."

I don't know what the actual retention rate is at FPC Palm Bay, but we do have visitation follow up, discipleship classes, and Home Friendship Groups where people can plug in and grow if they want to.

My personal experience was one of God dealing with me over time. I receive the HG at age nine at an AoG chuch that my mother and I were invited to visit. When I was a teenager, a street preacher showed me baptism in Jesus name and I was baptized in Jesus name at his local church, but didn't continue to attend. I told my sister about the HG and JN baptism but wasnt going to church anywhere myself. One day she called me on the phone to tell me about an awesome church she was visiting where people were receiving the HG and being baptized in JN, I happily attended there for about 20 years. I left when the church went through a major transition and I was a semi churchless wanderer for a period of time until God led me to FPC Palm to get plugged back in.

People may come in, get the HG, get baptized, you can try to establish them, but in the long run, you don't know where their journey is going to lead them. This does not mean that God has left them or is not continuing to work on them or that they won't eventually find their way home be it back to their original church or somewhere else. It is their choice.

[Rose]

Amanah, we used to love listening to your elder pastor's teaching on Sunday mornings!

[navygoat1998]

I don't know what the actual retention rate is at FPC Palm Bay, but we do have visitation follow up, discipleship classes, and Home Friendship Groups where people can plug in and grow if they want to.

My personal experience was one of God dealing with me over time. I receive the HG at age nine at an AoG chuch that my mother and I were invited to visit. When I was a teenager, a street preacher showed me baptism in Jesus name and I was baptized in Jesus name at his local church, but didn't continue to attend. I told my sister about the HG and JN baptism but wasnt going to church anywhere myself. One day she called me on the phone to tell me about an awesome church she was visiting where people were receiving the HG and being baptized in JN, I happily attended there for about 20 years. I left when the church went through a major transition and I was a semi churchless wanderer for a period of time until God led me to FPC Palm to get plugged back in.

People may come in, get the HG, get baptized, you can try to establish them, but in the long run, you don't know where their journey is going to lead them. This does not mean that God has left them or is not continuing to work on them or that they won't eventually find their way home be it back to their original church or somewhere else. It is their choice.

Years ago when we first planned on moving from California, FPC Palm was on our radar as a good place to plant, but moving was not in Gods plan at that time.

Fast-forward that picture a few years later when He opened the door and made away for us to move we had already left Oneness Pentecost and were in the AG.

When we moved God set us in a different area of the state and God was faithful to us in our walk. He has not failed us yet.

I had always heard good things about your church.

[Sean]

Let's face it - people like to find others like them to fellowship. That is why you see a church made up of one race, like Japanese, or Korean, or Spanish. They can relate to one another because they share similar backgrounds, genetics, and lifestyles. It may or may not have to do with the spiritual aspect of it, but more based on the fact that one Korean can relate to another Korean because of their culture. Their culture may mean more to them than they realize, and seeking fellowship with others who come from the same culture may be comforting to them.

There are others who don't feel the need to draw from their culture to find relationship.

I don't think it should be a mandated, or bad thing to have an all black church, or an all Korean church, or even an all American church!

For example, I have a Korean friend. She loves rice. Her children love rice. Her American husband tolerates it, but really doesn't like eating rice, and loves potatoes. She can't stand potatoes. She would rather eat rice than potatoes. I don't understand that. I love potatoes as a staple food for meals, and she loves rice. There is a cultural taste difference there that comes from her heritage, and one that comes from mine.

I shouldn't expect her to only eat potatoes, and she shouldn't expect me to eat only rice at meals we share together. We accept each other's differences. But my point is, that her culture and who she is, is different from mine. If she chose to go to a Korean-only church, I would understand that. If I choose to go to an All-American church, isn't that okay too?

See.... we try to fit everything and everybody into a nice tight little box, but it really doesn't work that way. Culture, race, background, family... all those things are important in relationships, and instead of judging one another, we should be accepting of our differences. If one culture group wants to worship together, let them. If they have no problem worshiping and fellow shipping with other cultures, than that is great too!

To sum it up... let's accept one another's differences, instead of trying to make them all fit into one tight little box.






AMEN, Good post........, LOL....why dont we start bussing folks to churches to mix up their demographics, like they do to kids in school here in CA to make sure the races are well mixed.(integration)....LOL

[Sean]

I can't call them brethren as far as NT covenant, but I do call them friends. Someone was criticizing Bro Crawford Coon the other day for calling a trinitarian brother...his response was "if I missed him in Christ I caught him in Adam". Lol


But I do agree with you...it bothers me when Pentecostals make such a big deal out of trying to give an image that they are no different Than any other denomination and go around calling anyone and everyone brethren. I attended an AoG church for about 2 years before I came to truth. I am even close to the leadership of that church now (and our church is right beside theirs!). We have wonderful discussions about The Lord And the Holy Ghost. However I have made it very clear and they understand, that while I love and respect them and count them friends, I believe that one MUST be water baptized in Jesus Name to be saved. They know in feel and what our church teaches about holiness too and seem to respect it.




Amen, I cannot call a person my brother in good conscience unless they are baptized in the name of Jesus. I dont care if they believe everything else different than me. Their baptism is the deal breaker to me.

[bkstokes]

Amen, I cannot call a person my brother in good conscience unless they are baptized in the name of Jesus. I dont care if they believe everything else different than me. Their baptism is the deal breaker to me.

And your baptismal regeneration is based primarily upon John 3:3-5. In this passage the Lord Jesus never equates being born of water as baptism. He does make a comparison of natural birth (water) and new birth (spiritual). If your interpretation is correct, then you call Jesus a liar for he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. What I mean is that for centuries no historian can find a group that baptized in Jesus name. Thus, if your interpretation is correct there did not exist the real church for centuries. I do believe that Jesus name is the correct form of baptism - However repeatedly the scriptures point to salvation at the point of belief in the Lord Jesus

[Originalist]

I can't call them brethren as far as NT covenant, but I do call them friends.



Here's what the Apostles said concerning those who had been baptized in the Holy Ghost.....


30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.

31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:30-32)

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is not just one of three "co-equal steps" in the new birth process. According to Peter, if God gives you the Holy Ghost, that is his own declaration that you have obeyed the gospel. While we as Apostolics are correct in many of our distinctives, we are wrong in assuming God demands perfection at conversion.

[Michael The Disciple]

Here's what the Apostles said concerning those who had been baptized in the Holy Ghost.....




The baptism in the Holy Ghost is not just one of three "co-equal steps" in the new birth process. According to Peter, if God gives you the Holy Ghost, that is his own declaration that you have obeyed the gospel. While we as Apostolics are correct in many of our distinctives, we are wrong in assuming God demands perfection at conversion.

I do believe Jesus expects our baptism to be correct. I also believe HE KNOWS the hearts of all men. If indeed someone receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism God is showing he accepts their faith.

If he accepts their faith who am I not to? AND YET now that they have the Spirit he can guide them into that other "step".

[FlamingZword]

Amen, I cannot call a person my brother in good conscience unless they are baptized in the name of Jesus. I dont care if they believe everything else different than me. Their baptism is the deal breaker to me.

Actually baptism is the deal breaker for the Catholic church too.

If you are baptized in the trinity, you are still considered a member of their church. You are just "protesting" brethren, but still brethren.

All those people in all those protestant churches seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church still claims them as part of their church. :heeheehee

[houston]

I do believe Jesus expects our baptism to be correct. I also believe HE KNOWS the hearts of all men. If indeed someone receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism God is showing he accepts their faith.

If he accepts their faith who am I not to? AND YET now that they have the Spirit he can guide them into that other "step".

Like hop-scotch.

[Originalist]

I do believe Jesus expects our baptism to be correct. I also believe HE KNOWS the hearts of all men. If indeed someone receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism God is showing he accepts their faith.

If he accepts their faith who am I not to? AND YET now that they have the Spirit he can guide them into that other "step".

I was actually referring to people who were baptized calling on the name of the Lord, but the one baptizing them did not invoke the name of Jesus (like those baptized in the titles). Personally, I do not believe it is scriptural to pray for people to receive the Spirit who have not been baptized.

[KeptByTheWord]

I don't know what the actual retention rate is at FPC Palm Bay, but we do have visitation follow up, discipleship classes, and Home Friendship Groups where people can plug in and grow if they want to.

My personal experience was one of God dealing with me over time. I receive the HG at age nine at an AoG chuch that my mother and I were invited to visit. When I was a teenager, a street preacher showed me baptism in Jesus name and I was baptized in Jesus name at his local church, but didn't continue to attend. I told my sister about the HG and JN baptism but wasnt going to church anywhere myself. One day she called me on the phone to tell me about an awesome church she was visiting where people were receiving the HG and being baptized in JN, I happily attended there for about 20 years. I left when the church went through a major transition and I was a semi churchless wanderer for a period of time until God led me to FPC Palm to get plugged back in.

People may come in, get the HG, get baptized, you can try to establish them, but in the long run, you don't know where their journey is going to lead them. This does not mean that God has left them or is not continuing to work on them or that they won't eventually find their way home be it back to their original church or somewhere else. It is their choice.

Amanah, thanks for sharing your thoughts! There are always two sides to every coin, and I appreciate your insight. I praise the Lord that His mercy continued to draw you to Him. I believe many are in your shoes, and after having experienced a genuine birth in the spirit, continue to seek, and search after the Lord.

[votivesoul]

I guess the AoG is kind of a sacred cow around here???

I post about how statistics can be skewed through a misrepresentation of data, especially in terms of how an organization has changed over time (since it's inception 100 years ago), including acts of compromise, and people come out of the word-work to freak out in order to defend a man-made organization.

[navygoat1998]

I guess the AoG is kind of a sacred cow around here???

I post about how statistics can be skewed through a misrepresentation of data, especially in terms of how an organization has changed over time (since it's inception 100 years ago), including acts of compromise, and people come out of the word-work to freak out in order to defend a man-made organization.

I only said something because that is my denomination :happydance

If it was a Oneness organization would you be so quick to point out how data could be misrepresented or skewd or is that just reserved for those like the AG who you don't consider brothers in Christ?

[Reader]

Freak out? Sacred cow? Funny!! :heeheehee :spit

All I said was in response to you was - The exact same may be said of UPC growth, PAW, ALJC & all other Apostolic organizations.

And that's the truth!

[Michael The Disciple]

I was actually referring to people who were baptized calling on the name of the Lord, but the one baptizing them did not invoke the name of Jesus (like those baptized in the titles). Personally, I do not believe it is scriptural to pray for people to receive the Spirit who have not been baptized.

No one prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit. I had never been in a Pentecostal Church in my life. I had not been water baptized nor had I yet went to any Church after I repented.

Six weeks later I had this experience with tongues and prophecy! Did I perceive it was the Holy Spirit baptism? No because I did not know enough of the word to understand that.

Now I agree with you it is not scriptural to pray for one to be filled with the Spirit unless they are water baptized. And yet if it happens to someone then it is nonetheless God showing he accepts their faith.

Having said that nothing says they are then ok to not be baptized in water in Jesus name.

[Originalist]

No one prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit. I had never been in a Pentecostal Church in my life. I had not been water baptized nor had I yet went to any Church after I repented.

Six weeks later I had this experience with tongues and prophecy! Did I perceive it was the Holy Spirit baptism? No because I did not know enough of the word to understand that.

Now I agree with you it is not scriptural to pray for one to be filled with the Spirit unless they are water baptized. And yet if it happens to someone then it is nonetheless God showing he accepts their faith.

Having said that nothing says they are then ok to not be baptized in water in Jesus name.

Good points all the way around.

[navygoat1998]

Good points all the way around.

I enjoy reading yours and MTD's posts.

[votivesoul]

I only said something because that is my denomination :happydance

If it was a Oneness organization would you be so quick to point out how data could be misrepresented or skewd or is that just reserved for those like the AG who you don't consider brothers in Christ?

I know you're an AoG man, but let me ask you: If it wasn't your denomination, would have been so quick to defend it?

I readily admit that all data in whatever form, can be manipulated to mean almost anything, including church organization and growth data. That is true of all groups, Oneness and otherwise.

But since this was a post about AoG growth data, my comments were limited to data regarding the growth, so-called, experienced by AoG.

Kind of weird, huh? Actually staying on topic.

[votivesoul]

Freak out? Sacred cow? Funny!! :heeheehee :spit

All I said was in response to you was - The exact same may be said of UPC growth, PAW, ALJC & all other Apostolic organizations.

And that's the truth!

The truth of your statement doesn't invalidate the truth of mine. I merely made an accurate case that the stats presented may not indicate what the AoG says they do.

And you all made assumptions about me, what I think, what I believe, what organizational affiliations I have and who I do and do not think is saved. See I never said a thing about the data of other organizations, or any other thing. You and some others brought up all the stuff you're picking on me for (presumptuously so, I might add). I merely made honest comments in good faith.

I even had someone respond in which they poo-pooed on how much Oneness people evangelize and work to see people filled with the Spirit just so they could launch into a diatribe about their perceived lack of discipleship among the Apostolic movement.

So, yes, I see it as a freak out. Too many are so ready to knee jerk and shoot from the hip and rush to speak before they think around here. Not everyone who posts at AFF has a hidden agenda or thinks so low of their fellow posters, or their affiliations and denominational positions just because a good swath of other posters actually do.

[Reader]

And you all made assumptions about me, what I think, what I believe, what organizational affiliations I have and who I do and do not think is saved.

How did I accomplish this by writing, "The exact same may be said of UPC growth, PAW, ALJC & all other Apostolic organizations"?

The truth of your statement doesn't invalidate the truth of mine.

Never said it did.

[votivesoul]

How did I accomplish this by writing, "The exact same may be said of UPC growth, PAW, ALJC & all other Apostolic organizations"?

You're correct. You didn't say it. It was someone else. I apologize for lumping and conflating you with/into someone else.

Never said it did.

I know, but I wonder at the motives for making the point, since these other Oneness organizations were not a part of the original post. Were you just randomly musing or were you directing your comments toward me and my post?

I take it, it was the latter and not the former.

[n david]

The truth of your statement doesn't invalidate the truth of mine. I merely made an accurate case that the stats presented may not indicate what the AoG says they do.

And you all made assumptions about me, what I think, what I believe, what organizational affiliations I have and who I do and do not think is saved. See I never said a thing about the data of other organizations, or any other thing. You and some others brought up all the stuff you're picking on me for (presumptuously so, I might add). I merely made honest comments in good faith.

I even had someone respond in which they poo-pooed on how much Oneness people evangelize and work to see people filled with the Spirit just so they could launch into a diatribe about their perceived lack of discipleship among the Apostolic movement.

So, yes, I see it as a freak out. Too many are so ready to knee jerk and shoot from the hip and rush to speak before they think around here. Not everyone who posts at AFF has a hidden agenda or thinks so low of their fellow posters, or their affiliations and denominational positions just because a good swath of other posters actually do.
Weird. I went through this thread three times and didn't see any of the parts in bold. In fact, the only one's who quoted you directly were NavyGoat1998, Keptbytheword and Reader and they did none of what you claimed. None of the other posts quote or even mention you.

Actually, most of the ire was directed at AR Pastor, not you.

[votivesoul]

The "you all" refers to those who are personally interacting with me, not everyone posting on this thread.

[Reader]

You're correct. You didn't say it. It was someone else. I apologize for lumping and conflating you with/into someone else.

No harm done. Apology accepted.


I know, but I wonder at the motives for making the point, since these other Oneness organizations were not a part of the original post. Were you just randomly musing or were you directing your comments toward me and my post?

I take it, it was the latter and not the former.

Of course it was a comment in reply to your post but certainly not anything toward you personally. ANY church group stats could fit your description. Since this is an Apostolic forum and since I am aware of how some UPC stats have been formed in the past, I zeroed in on this.

Look at how some count Sunday School attendance as a regular stat, when many of those can be children bused in and not actual members of the church? Look at how some count Easter service instead of a regular midweek service when less people attend or a regular Sunday evening.

There can be many variables in numbers and some denominations have strict rules as to who is counted and they separate members from constituents.

[navygoat1998]

I know you're an AoG man, but let me ask you: If it wasn't your denomination, would have been so quick to defend it?

I readily admit that all data in whatever form, can be manipulated to mean almost anything, including church organization and growth data. That is true of all groups, Oneness and otherwise.

But since this was a post about AoG growth data, my comments were limited to data regarding the growth, so-called, experienced by AoG.

Kind of weird, huh? Actually staying on topic.


Brother I was really defending the Holy Ghost Baptism based upon what I have seen and what I have been part of personally.

As far as numbers I think ALL denominations stretch numbers. It's like the adage, I have car worth 300,000 dollars but I could only sell it for 250,000 dollars, the car is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it.


AG churches close their doors all the time and new ones are planted.

[Abiding Now]

Praying the AoG comes into the truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Praying the AoG comes into the truth.

I pray they come to MORE truth. They have SOME truth.

[shag]

I just think 'they' (dont wanna broadbrush, but?)could sometimes wear more clothes :)

Youth pastor on the front page of our city's newspaper w no shirt, diving off the high dive at the public pool.

Just got back home last night from a 3 day camping trip at a public campground. My sister and bro n law are and have been both very actively involved teaching etc in a mega AOG church for the last decade. While we were around and on the river, my sister wore somewhat of a revealing swimsuit(IM0), while my bro n law went w out a shirt most of the time... I don't get that.

Years ago I attended AOG a while, and the lady that used to babysit my son sat on the front row every wk w an amen every breathe, and yet would consistently lay out in a bikini on her back deck(publicly visible) in a trailer park oftentimes I'd pick him up.


While it's not my job nor intent to judge others, I don't understand this kinda stuff in relation to modesty.

[navygoat1998]

I just think 'they' could sometimes wear more clothes :)

Youth pastor on the front page of our city's newspaper w no shirt, diving off the high dive at the public pool.

Just got back home last night from a 3 day camping trip. My sister and bro n law are and have been both very actively involved teaching etc in a mega AOG church for the last decade. My sister consistantly wore a quite revealing swimsuit while my bro n law went w out a shirt most of the time. I don't get that. Public campground.

Years ago I attended AOG a while, and the lady that used to babysit my son sat on the front row every wk w an amen every breathe, and yet would consistently lay out in a bikini on her back deck(publicly visible) in a trailer park oftentimes I'd pick him up.


While it's not my job nor intent to judge others, I don't understand this kinda stuff in relation to modesty.

:thumbsup

My wife and I were talking about this very subject this morning on the way to church.

You don't need to dress like "Little House on the prairie" but however you did not dress like your going clubbing.

It is one thing to be a new Christian but another to be a seasoned saint.

[KeptByTheWord]

I don't even think they realize how they look, or that this has even crossed their minds, although you would think it would.

I've heard people say, in relation to discussions about modesty... "well if they don't like how I look, they don't have to look at me, it's their problem, not mine." And, I've seen many people with this kind of attitude.

In reality, modesty is caring about others more than yourself. It is being cautious to dress in such a way, as to not draw inappropriate attention to yourself, or to cause others to think lustful thoughts when they look at you.

I believe that if modesty was taught in this way, people would take a good look at themselves before stepping outside their door, and would ask themselves, am I dressed in such a way as to draw undue attention to myself, or make someone uncomfortable who looks at me, and am I sufficiently covered and dressed so as to not expose parts of my body that should remain covered?

This would go a long way in eliminating the need some feel to teach that "all must wear dresses to the floor, sleeves to the wrist, shirts to the collarbone", etc., because those rules can be stretched to still dress inappropriately, and draw attention to oneself.

Modesty of the heart is really displayed as a respect for others, and respect for one's self too.

[navygoat1998]

I don't even think they realize how they look, or that this has even crossed their minds, although you would think it would.

I've heard people say, in relation to discussions about modesty... "well if they don't like how I look, they don't have to look at me, it's their problem, not mine." And, I've seen many people with this kind of attitude.

In reality, modesty is caring about others more than yourself. It is being cautious to dress in such a way, as to not draw inappropriate attention to yourself, or to cause others to think lustful thoughts when they look at you.

I believe that if modesty was taught in this way, people would take a good look at themselves before stepping outside their door, and would ask themselves, am I dressed in such a way as to draw undue attention to myself, or make someone uncomfortable who looks at me, and am I sufficiently covered and dressed so as to not expose parts of my body that should remain covered?

This would go a long way in eliminating the need some feel to teach that "all must wear dresses to the floor, sleeves to the wrist, shirts to the collarbone", etc., because those rules can be stretched to still dress inappropriately, and draw attention to oneself.

Modesty of the heart is really displayed as a respect for others, and respect for one's self too.

:thumbsup

[houston]

I think for most people bathing suits or bikinis are not considered immodest in a beach/pool, sunbathing setting.

[shag]

I think for most people bathing suits or bikinis are not considered immodest in a beach/pool, sunbathing setting.



Disciples of Christ?

[houston]

Disciples of Christ?

Yes.

[shag]

I lean toward the opinion that our LORD very likely considers bikinis in an adult public setting w multi genders as immodest. And quite the invitation for the lust of the eye.

[Michael The Disciple]

Interesting points. While we oppose the forced Apostolic type standards my wife and I couldn't help but notice on our recent visit to an AOG Church a woman in the praise team on the platform wearing short shorts. Pentecostals can do better but they must be taught.

[oneinkhorn]

Evergreen Christian Centre, Laqere, Fiji Islands


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi3WvHRjPe0

[FlamingZword]

Evergreen Christian Centre, Laqere, Fiji Islands

They are getting close, they sing about the name of Jesus but they still have not been baptized in his holy name.

Guide is trying to guide them into all truth, I hope they will take the next step and take baptism in his name.

[navygoat1998]

They are getting close, they sing about the name of Jesus but they still have not been baptized in his holy name.

Guide is trying to guide them into all truth, I hope they will take the next step and take baptism in his name.

:heeheehee

[oneinkhorn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Y4cJjHTxs

[FlamingZword]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Y4cJjHTxs

They still need baptism in the name of Jesus.
There is salvation in NO other "name"

[navygoat1998]

They still need baptism in the name of Jesus.
There is salvation in NO other "name"

:heeheehee

[Abiding Now]

I would hate to know that I was bound to false doctrine by a feeling.

[navygoat1998]

I would hate to know that I was bound to false doctrine by a feeling.

:heeheehee

[Abiding Now]

:heeheehee

Can't defend your "feeling", huh? :laffatu

[navygoat1998]

Can't defend your "feeling", huh? :laffatu

:dogpat The last I checked the Lord Baptizes them with the same Holy Ghost. Take your complaints to the Lord for it is He Baptizes with fire.

[oneinkhorn]

Sa ka talei dina ga
Talei sara ga

Ni bokoci noqu ca
Au savai ena dra

Me qai soli vei au
Na bula marau

Sa ka talei dina ga

What a wonderful thing
A wonderful thing

To be saved from sin
And a peace within

To be made a joint-heir
With Jesus my King

What a wonderful, wonderful thing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWoH6bQXPw

[houston]

:dogpat The last I checked the Lord Baptizes them with the same Holy Ghost. Take your complaints to the Lord for it is He Baptizes with fire.

Right. He baptizes them and sends them to hell because He didn't lead them into all truth. Makes perfect sense.

[Abiding Now]

Right. He baptizes them and sends them to hell because He didn't lead them into all truth. Makes perfect sense.

The Spirit LEADS, He does not drive.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

[AR Pastor]

The Spirit LEADS, He does not drive.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

:thumbsup

[oneinkhorn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLn9WReh8lY

[FlamingZword]

I know we can dance before the Lord, but this is perhaps a little bit too modern.

Are these charismatics on steroids or after a drink of that monster drink?

[n david]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLn9WReh8lY
Love it!

[oneinkhorn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlMkI5IiiI0

[oneinkhorn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GeSW-Q9hhw

[rick g mcmahan]

the bible sais that narrow is the way that leads to salvation !!! large churches dont mean God is in it its alot more complex than that. a racial church dont mean good or bad some people are so shallow they have no knowledge of the truth or discrenment