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Jermyn Davidson
06-21-2014, 07:20 PM
... but not much else.

Jermyn Davidson
06-21-2014, 07:24 PM
Even then, on water baptism, only partially right.

Baptism in the NAME of JESUS is biblically and historically correct. However, their reasoning behind it is faulty.

It would be better to simply state that Christians must be baptized because it is a biblical command.

Originalist
06-21-2014, 07:57 PM
Even then, on water baptism, only partially right.

Baptism in the NAME of JESUS is biblically and historically correct. However, their reasoning behind it is faulty.

It would be better to simply state that Christians must be baptized because it is a biblical command.

I believe that normatively baptism precedes the new birth of the spirit/salvation. It is indeed linked to repentance. Peter said "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ FOR the remission of your sins"

The word "FOR" is the Greek "EIS" which is always forward looking. It cannot mean "because of". The correct rendering therefore of this verse is..."Repent and be baptized everyone of you ON the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order that your sins may be forgiven."

Where I feel our movement errs is when we say 'baptism washes away sins" or even saying "baptism is for the remission of sins" without clarification. First of all, Acts 2:38 links both baptism AND repentance for the remission of sins. But I also see a subtle difference is saying that repentance and baptism are for the remission of sins versus saying "in order that your sins may be forgiven". The latter phrase makes repentance and baptism the doorway or step of faith towards the forgiveness of sins, but place the forgiveness itself slightly beyond the baptism. Oneness folks seem to think that God somehow uses baptism to wash away sin, and I think this is error. I believe that what Peter in essence is saying in Acts 2 and all throughout Acts is....

"If you believe the word we are preaching concerning the fact that God raised his Son Jesus from the dead, glorified him, and placed in him all authority in Heaven and in Earth, including the power to forgive sins, then obey this good news now ! submit to the rule of God's glorified , risen Son by calling on him as Lord in repentance and submitting to his authority in baptism. When you do that, God will forgive you for Christ's sake."

So, we repent and are baptized "FOR" (in order that) our sins might be forgiven. But who does the remitting/forgiving of the sins? God does for Christ's sake! God remits our sins by the authority of Christ The baptism or the spoken invocation of a minister does not remit the sins!.

Somehow in our zeal to make sure everyone has the right words spoken over them in baptism, we subconsciously lead them to believe that the baptism is washing away their sins or the spoken word of the baptizer, No way!! God HIMSELF does the forgiving when we submit to the authority of his risen/glorified Son by repenting and being baptized.

FlamingZword
06-22-2014, 12:37 AM
... but not much else.

Come on give them a break.
after all most denominations got something right.

The Lutherans were right about salvation being by faith.
The spirit was trying to guide them unto greater truth, but they got stuck there.

The Baptists were right about baptism being important for salvation.
The spirit was trying to guide them unto greater truth, but they got stuck there.

The Pentecostals were right about the gifts of the spirit.
The spirit was trying to guide them unto greater truth, but they got stuck there.

The problem I see is that most denominations get stuck somewhere.

votivesoul
06-22-2014, 02:20 AM
This is really dumb. For real.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lab1kgWDj01qdigseo1_400.png

Michael The Disciple
06-22-2014, 06:23 AM
I agree with Oneness Pentecostals:

The Oneness of God, Jesus Only.

Acts 2:38 is the full plan of salvation.

Originalist
06-22-2014, 08:34 AM
I agree with Oneness Pentecostals:

The Oneness of God, Jesus Only.

Acts 2:38 is the full plan of salvation.

It's my understanding that the term "Jesus Only" was a phrase created by our detractors to describe the way be baptize (as in, "they baptize only in the name of Jesus"), not to describe our view of the Godhead. Later people began to misunderstand and apply the term to our belief in the Godhead, erroneously. They use this term to perpetuate the myth that we deny the existence of the Father and Holy Ghost. I'm curious as to why you would be a party to perpetuating a gross misrepresentation of our beliefs.

Sean
06-22-2014, 08:44 AM
I believe that normatively baptism precedes the new birth of the spirit/salvation. It is indeed linked to repentance. Peter said ""

The word "FOR" is the Greek "EIS" which is always forward looking. It cannot mean "because of". The correct rendering therefore of this verse is..."Repent and be baptized everyone of you ON the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order that your sins may be forgiven."

Where I feel our movement errs is when we say 'baptism washes away sins" or even saying "baptism is for the remission of sins" without clarification. First of all, Acts 2:38 links both baptism AND repentance for the remission of sins. But I also see a subtle difference is saying that repentance and baptism are for the remission of sins versus saying "in order that your sins may be forgiven". The latter phrase makes repentance and baptism the doorway or step of faith towards the forgiveness of sins, but place the forgiveness itself slightly beyond the baptism. Oneness folks seem to think that God somehow uses baptism to wash away sin, and I think this is error. I believe that what Peter in essence is saying in Acts 2 and all throughout Acts is....


Brother, forgive me for butting in, but I beg to differ on the highlighted statement. I will just post this verse. I will not get further into it here, we did that months ago. God Bless

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I dont see another concept presented here to wash away sins, but to be baptized. If I was on the receiving end of that statement, I would have equated baptism with my sins being washed away. (you know..WATER(baptized)....WASH, (I kinda see it like that), just most folks use water to wash stuff, but what do I know?, maybe baptism is like a "waterless car wash"...LOL....respectfully




So, we repent and are baptized "FOR" (in order that) our sins might be forgiven. But who does the remitting/forgiving of the sins? God does for Christ's sake! God remits our sins by the authority of Christ The baptism or the spoken invocation of a minister does not remit the sins!.

Somehow in our zeal to make sure everyone has the right words spoken over them in baptism, we subconsciously lead them to believe that the baptism is washing away their sins or the spoken word of the baptizer, No way!! God HIMSELF does the forgiving when we submit to the authority of his risen/glorified Son by repenting and being baptized..

Originalist
06-22-2014, 12:33 PM
.Brother, forgive me for butting in, but I beg to differ on the highlighted statement. I will just post this verse. I will not get further into it here, we did that months ago. God Bless

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I dont see another concept presented here to wash away sins, but to be baptized. If I was on the receiving end of that statement, I would have equated baptism with my sins being washed away. (you know..WATER(baptized)....WASH, (I kinda see it like that), just most folks use water to wash stuff, but what do I know?, maybe baptism is like a "waterless car wash"...LOL....respectfully


Brother, do you not know figurative language when you read it? There is nothing literally washed at baptism. Peter made it clear that is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh by which baptism doth now "save" us. Even Peter used the term "like figure". This verse you quoted does not in any way contradict what I posted. Not at all. The term "remission" in Acts 2:38 literally means "forgiveness". Water is not a living person. Only a person can forgive sin. I am clearly connecting baptism as a step towards forgiveness. But a baptismal candidate needs to know why he is bring baptized. At most Oneness churches all a baptismal candidate would hear about is the "name being invoked" and that baptism literally washing away his sins. That is not Apostolic teaching. In Acts people repented and got baptized because they "believed those things preached concerning the kingdom of God and the name (authority) of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12) And what were those "things" that the Apostles preached concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ?

24 But God hath raised Him up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

33 Therefore, being exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:24,32-33,36)



13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified His Son Jesus, whom ye delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go.

18 But those things which God before had shown by the mouth of all His prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath thus fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

26 Unto you first, God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.” (Acts 3:13,18-19,26)


Act 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

10 be it known unto you all and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified and whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is ‘the stone which was set at nought by you builders and which has become the head of the corner.’

12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Acts 2,10-12,33)


30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are His witnesses of these things, and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to those who obey Him.” (Acts 5:30-32)


36 The Word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —

37 that Word, I say, ye know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:

38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem — He whom they hanged on a tree and slew.

40 Him God raised up the third day and showed Him openly,

41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.

42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be the Judge of the quick and dead.

43 To Him all the prophets bear witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:36-43)


Sean, we don't preach much of this as the apostles did. Rather, in our zeal to correct all the other churches' doctrine, we skip all of this and preach baptism in the name of Jesus as the gospel. We give the credit to releasing someone from the condemnation of sin to the preacher invoking the name in baptism instead of to Jesus himself!! Too many people in our churches even understand why they're being baptized because we do not follow the Apostolic method of preaching "things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name (authority) of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Yes, to be forgiven one must repent of their sins and be baptized. But it's not the repenting and baptizing that is giving the forgiveness. Only God in Christ can do that.

Sean
06-22-2014, 01:23 PM
Brother, do you not know figurative language when you read it? There is nothing literally washed at baptism. Peter made it clear that is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh by which baptism doth now "save" us. Even Peter used the term "like figure". This verse you quoted does not in any way contradict what I posted. Not at all. The term "remission" in Acts 2:38 literally means "forgiveness". Water is not a living person. Only a person can forgive sin. I am clearly connecting baptism as a step towards forgiveness. But a baptismal candidate needs to know why he is bring baptized. At most Oneness churches all a baptismal candidate would hear about is the "name being invoked" and that baptism literally washing away his sins. That is not Apostolic teaching. In Acts people repented and got baptized because they "believed those things preached concerning the kingdom of God and the name (authority) of Jesus Christ" (Acts 8:12) And what were those "things" that the Apostles preached concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ?
















Sean, we don't preach much of this as the apostles did. Rather, in our zeal to correct all the other churches' doctrine, we skip all of this and preach baptism in the name of Jesus as the gospel. We give the credit to releasing someone from the condemnation of sin to the preacher invoking the name in baptism instead of to Jesus himself!! Too many people in our churches even understand why they're being baptized because we do not follow the Apostolic method of preaching "things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name (authority) of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Yes, to be forgiven one must repent of their sins and be baptized. But it's not the repenting and baptizing that is giving the forgiveness. Only God in Christ can do that.





I see what you are saying bro. but think about you just wrote for a minute...

Instead of reading and agreeing with a passage and its simple meaning, you needed a paragraph and numerous verses of sorts to explain into the passage a "different" meaning.

This is PRECISELY why all of Christianity is divided today, generally speaking. Men provide "lectures" about simple passages that were originally wrote for 1st century, (barely) literate folks that could EASILY be understood. And have made MASTERY of the scriptures with huge commentaries of mens opinions about a super simple verse such as the one we are talking about.

These days...NOTHING means what it says anymore regarding the Bible.

Bro. I choose to read it and believe it like a 5th grader and trust it with all my heart, aside from the PHDs that spend a lifetime trying to "discipher" the so called "secret" meanings of the Bible.


Im not trying to get on your case at all here. I am just trying to make you see the big picture of what is going on in Christianity as a whole. We have 1 Bible with thousands of denominations, all with a differing meaning OF THE SAME BOOK. Doesnt that trip you out to think about?
It does me....

My only suggestion to anybody reading is DONT TRY TO OUTSMART THIS BIBLE, BECAUSE IT WILL ALWAYS OUTSMART YOU...every time!...LOL

Originalist
06-22-2014, 01:25 PM
I see what you are saying bro. but think about you just wrote for a minute...

Instead of reading and agreeing with a passage and its simple meaning, you needed a paragraph and numerous verses of sorts to explain into the passage a "different" meaning.

This is PRECISELY why all of Christianity is divided today, generally speaking. Men provide "lectures" about simple passages that were originally wrote for 1st century, barely literate folks that could EASILY be understood. And have made MASTERY of the scriptures with huge commentaries of mens opinions about a super simple verse such as the one we are talking about.

These days...NOTHING means what it says anymore regarding the Bible.

Bro. I choose to read it and believe it like a 5th grader and trust it with all my heart, aside from the PHDs that spend a lifetime trying to "discipher" the so called "secret" meanings of the Bible.


Im not trying to get on your case at all here. I am just trying to make you see the big picture of what is going on in Christianity as a whole. We have 1 Bible with thousands of denominations, all with a differing meaning OF THE SAME BOOK. Doesnt that trip you out to think about?
It does me....

My only suggestion to anybody reading is DONT TRY TO OUTSMART THIS BIBLE, BECAUSE IT WILL ALWAYS OUTSMART YOU...every time!...LOL

Sean, we are to read scripture in context. Please cite where I took any scripture out of context.

The context of every baptism in Acts is the hearers responding to the message the apostles preached concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. No hidden meanings or secrets. Just plain and simple letting scripture interpret scripture.

Sean
06-22-2014, 01:36 PM
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I dont see another concept presented here to wash away sins, but to be baptized. If I was on the receiving end of that statement, I would have equated baptism with my sins being washed away. (you know..WATER(baptized)....WASH, (I kinda see it like that), just most folks use water to wash stuff, but what do I know?, maybe baptism is like a "waterless car wash"...LOL....respectfully


Brother, look at the passage again...Arise>Baptized(water)>WASH(water) AWAY THY SINS,,,,Brother, this is clean as a whistle. How my brother, can you not see that?(now that is directly contextual)

I dare you to try to "wash" the dishes tonight without water. Or take a bath for that matter.

There is more than one reason that water baptism is COMMANDED my brother.

Originalist
06-22-2014, 01:56 PM
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I dont see another concept presented here to wash away sins, but to be baptized. If I was on the receiving end of that statement, I would have equated baptism with my sins being washed away. (you know..WATER(baptized)....WASH, (I kinda see it like that), just most folks use water to wash stuff, but what do I know?, maybe baptism is like a "waterless car wash"...LOL....respectfully


Brother, look at the passage again...Arise>Baptized(water)>WASH(water) AWAY THY SINS,,,,Brother, this is clean as a whistle. How my brother, can you not see that?(now that is directly contextual)

I dare you to try to "wash" the dishes tonight without water. Or take a bath for that matter.

There is more than one reason that water baptism is COMMANDED my brother.

The Bible also speaks of the blood of Jesus purging our conscience of dead works. Sean, do you believe that literal blood somehow passed into your conscience and cleansed it?

We can link "washing away thy sins" in that passage to "calling on the name of the Lord" just as easily. That fits perfectly with the Apostolic message that Saul had rejected to that point that Jesus was Lord. To be forgiven Saul had to accept that message by professing Jesus as Lord and being baptized. When he did that, Jesus "washed his sins away".

And I affirm that baptism is commanded and is linked to washing away or forgiveness of our sins. Have I denied that? I just happen to believe that it is Jesus himself that does the forgiving and not the water.

Michael The Disciple
06-22-2014, 02:39 PM
It's my understanding that the term "Jesus Only" was a phrase created by our detractors to describe the way be baptize (as in, "they baptize only in the name of Jesus"), not to describe our view of the Godhead. Later people began to misunderstand and apply the term to our belief in the Godhead, erroneously. They use this term to perpetuate the myth that we deny the existence of the Father and Holy Ghost. I'm curious as to why you would be a party to perpetuating a gross misrepresentation of our beliefs.

I don't consider "Jesus Only" a misrepresentation of Oneness. Altho it refers to water baptism it also refers to the belief that ONLY Jesus is God.

Now if modern day Oneness Pentecostals (not saying you) are ashamed of that title so be it. Personally I am honored to say I believe in Jesus Only.

Here's an example.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

What name fits this scripture? I would say Yeshua or Jesus.

So I understand that those outside of the true faith will not like "Jesus Only" but will they accept when I say "Jesus is the Father"? No I have proved that hundreds if not thousands of times.

So my point is that no matter what we call ourselves our how we begin our presentation of Oneness we will have to say more then our opening statement. We will have to begin to present the multitude of scripture that backs up what we said.

Then we will have to explain Biblical Christology.

Ironically the new buzzword for the hyper grace Evangelical doctrine of salvation is "Christ Alone".

Sean
06-22-2014, 03:47 PM
The Bible also speaks of the blood of Jesus purging our conscience of dead works. Sean, do you believe that literal blood somehow passed into your conscience and cleansed it?

We can link "washing away thy sins" in that passage to "calling on the name of the Lord" just as easily. That fits perfectly with the Apostolic message that Saul had rejected to that point that Jesus was Lord. To be forgiven Saul had to accept that message by professing Jesus as Lord and being baptized. When he did that, Jesus "washed his sins away".

And I affirm that baptism is commanded and is linked to washing away or forgiveness of our sins. Have I denied that? I just happen to believe that it is Jesus himself that does the forgiving and not the water.ORIGINALIST






Brother, before we start a paper chase down a rabbit hole as all of Christianity does. Imagine yourself for just a moment, living in the 1st century, you are the Paul, Ananias tells you to arise, be baptized, washing away thy sins.

Would you just say, "yes sir, I would love to be baptized and wash away my sins" ....or would you tell Ananias, "sure I will be baptized, but not to wash away my sins though, because water baptism DOES NOT WASH AWAY MY SINS".


Well that sound ridiculous, but thats what you are saying about this passage bro. Maybe you could pull out your pocket New Testament and concordance, looking up the word "blood or wash", and tell the same thing to Ananias you told me if you were the Paul.
See how complicated you have made this simple passage?

Brother, this passage is SELF INTERPRETING... just like most misinterpreted passages these days. Again, just think like Paul thought, when Ananias told him what he told him, and you cannot go wrong.

Remember this...the foundational interpretation of every passage is the passage itself. If there is absolutely no way to understand it, then hit the concordance.



That is the safest and best way to interpret scripture

Sean
06-22-2014, 03:56 PM
I don't consider "Jesus Only" a misrepresentation of Oneness. Altho it refers to water baptism it also refers to the belief that ONLY Jesus is God.

Now if modern day Oneness Pentecostals (not saying you) are ashamed of that title so be it. Personally I am honored to say I believe in Jesus Only.

Here's an example.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

What name fits this scripture? I would say Yeshua or Jesus.

So I understand that those outside of the true faith will not like "Jesus Only" but will they accept when I say "Jesus is the Father"? No I have proved that hundreds if not thousands of times.

So my point is that no matter what we call ourselves our how we begin our presentation of Oneness we will have to say more then our opening statement. We will have to begin to present the multitude of scripture that backs up what we said.

Then we will have to explain Biblical Christology.

Ironically the new buzzword for the hyper grace Evangelical doctrine of salvation is "Christ Alone".








Brother Michael, if someone calls me Jesus only, I correct them and tell them I believe that God was INSIDE of Jesus. They just need us to clarify our position is all. They are taught "Jesus only" as a slang word from their peers.

Michael The Disciple
06-22-2014, 05:07 PM
Brother Michael, if someone calls me Jesus only, I correct them and tell them I believe that God was INSIDE of Jesus. They just need us to clarify our position is all. They are taught "Jesus only" as a slang word from their peers.

I stand perfectly eager to explain Jesus only to them. I was in a forum today with about 25 Trins. I think there may have been one other Oneness. They were boldly proclaiming Trinity doctrine.

When I took the mic several times they had enough and took it from me.

As I said ANYTHING we might call ourselves makes them stumble. Now and then tho someone gets it.

:highfive

Sean
06-22-2014, 05:31 PM
Amen Bro....If we dont let them know theres a difference, who will?

Originalist
06-22-2014, 08:54 PM
ORIGINALIST






Brother, before we start a paper chase down a rabbit hole as all of Christianity does. Imagine yourself for just a moment, living in the 1st century, you are the Paul, Ananias tells you to arise, be baptized, washing away thy sins.

Would you just say, "yes sir, I would love to be baptized and wash away my sins" ....or would you tell Ananias, "sure I will be baptized, but not to wash away my sins though, because water baptism DOES NOT WASH AWAY MY SINS".


Well that sound ridiculous, but thats what you are saying about this passage bro. Maybe you could pull out your pocket New Testament and concordance, looking up the word "blood or wash", and tell the same thing to Ananias you told me if you were the Paul.
See how complicated you have made this simple passage?

Brother, this passage is SELF INTERPRETING... just like most misinterpreted passages these days. Again, just think like Paul thought, when Ananias told him what he told him, and you cannot go wrong.

Remember this...the foundational interpretation of every passage is the passage itself. If there is absolutely no way to understand it, then hit the concordance.



That is the safest and best way to interpret scripture


I understand your stance because you are one of the few Apostolics I've met that believes n baptismal regeneration. I do not. Peter declared in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized...in order that your sins may be forgiven. Sean, do repentance and baptism have the ability to forgive sins? Are they self aware beings?

Sabby
06-22-2014, 09:37 PM
Even then, on water baptism, only partially right.

Baptism in the NAME of JESUS is biblically and historically correct. However, their reasoning behind it is faulty.

It would be better to simply state that Christians must be baptized because it is a biblical command.

This is excellent.
It would be even better for the baptizee to literally "call on the name of The Lord Jesus" when rising out of the waters of baptism.

Sean
06-23-2014, 07:41 AM
I understand your stance because you are one of the few Apostolics I've met that believes n baptismal regeneration. I do not. Peter declared in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized...in order that your sins may be forgiven. Sean, do repentance and baptism have the ability to forgive sins? Are they self aware beings?






Of course not.

Repentance and baptism are simply our requirements to receive forgiveness and remission of sins bro.

The very acts themselves cause a response from God towards us for salvation.


Brother, dont you think it is kinda strange, you are working this hard to make a verse like the one we are talking about mean something else? Just think about this for a minute. Are there alterior motives, bias? It is obviously "bucking" your theology. It may be part of a root system of faulty beliefs. I have noticed that stuff on me in the past and had to deal with it. There have been some big weeds in my theology in the past, that when I noticed a root, I found it attached to a weed and pulled out the whole thing.


I am not too proud to admit this either. I have recently "busted" some folks on clear misinterpretations on other threads, but they are soooo proud, they would not ever admit that they misquoted something, they just "stick to their story". Worried that their entire concept could "domino" down I guess.

Originalist
06-23-2014, 08:03 AM
I understand your stance because you are one of the few Apostolics I've met that believes n baptismal regeneration. I do not. Peter declared in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized...in order that your sins may be forgiven. Sean, do repentance and baptism have the ability to forgive sins? Are they self aware beings?






Of course not.

Repentance and baptism are simply our requirements to receive forgiveness and remission of sins bro.

The very acts themselves cause a response from God towards us for salvation.


Brother, dont you think it is kinda strange, you are working this hard to make a verse like the one we are talking about mean something else? Just think about this for a minute. Are there alterior motives, bias? It is obviously "bucking" your theology. It may be part of a root system of faulty beliefs. I have noticed that stuff on me in the past and had to deal with it. There have been some big weeds in my theology in the past, that when I noticed a root, I found it attached to a weed and pulled out the whole thing.


Sean I do not know how old you are or how long you've had the Holy Ghost. I am 48 and have had the Holy Ghost since 1981. I have lived for God since that time. Certainly I know what it is like to have God stand your beliefs on their head. I was once licensed with the AoG. In 1993 I joined the UPCI. That should tell you something. But just because I joined the Apostolics does not mean I've arrived and can't keep learning. but this close mindedness to any new truth of scripture is a problem in our movement. I sense this in you now, respectfully. You've been led to believe that the sins are remitted BY baptism. I feel the scriptures teach they are remitted IN repentance and baptism BY God for Christ's sake. You've been led to believe that orally invoking the name of Jesus in baptism somehow magically takes away sins. I feel the scripture teaches that baptism is a response to the message preached by the Apostles concerning the risen and glorified Christ and is an act of submission to that message and the One preached. When we submit to him in baptism, HE forgives us. There is not some salvation power to wash sin flowing from the baptizers lips , into the water that somehow magically cures your sin ailment. That's what you seem to believe.

Sean
06-23-2014, 08:14 AM
[QUOTE=Sean;1320502]


Sean I do not know how old you are or how long you've had the Holy Ghost. I am 48 and have had the Holy Ghost since 1981. I have lived for God since that time. Certainly I know what it is like to have God stand your beliefs on their head. I was once licensed with the AoG. In 1993 I joined the UPCI. That should tell you something. But just because I joined the Apostolics does not mean I've arrived and can't keep learning. but this close mindedness to any new truth of scripture is a problem in our movement. I sense this in you now, respectfully. You've been led to believe that the sins are remitted BY baptism. I feel the scriptures teach they are remitted IN repentance and baptism BY God for Christ's sake. You've been led to believe that orally invoking the name of Jesus in baptism somehow magically takes away sins. I feel the scripture teaches that baptism is a response to the message preached by the Apostles concerning the risen and glorified Christ and is an act of submission to that message and the One preached. When we submit to him in baptism, HE forgives us. There is not some salvation power to wash sin flowing from the baptizers lips , into the water that somehow magically cures your sin ailment. That's what you seem to believe.





Brother, right here shows your bias, the name that is among every name(Jesus) is not "magic".(that is a derision of the greatest name ever spoken to mankind) I have heard debates when the trinitarians commonly called the name of Jesus during baptism, our little "magical" formula.

Could this statement have its roots in you A of G days?

They are the ones that say this.



BTW, I am 52 and was saved in 1979. I was debating trinitarians within 6 months...LOL

Originalist
06-23-2014, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE=Originalist;1320504]





Brother, right here shows your bias, the name that is among every name(Jesus) is not "magic".(that is a derision of the greatest name ever spoken to mankind) I have heard debates when the trinitarians commonly called the name of Jesus during baptism, our little "magical" formula.

Could this statement have its roots in you A of G days?

They are the ones that say this.





BTW, I am 52 and was saved in 1979. I was debating trinitarians within 6 months...LOL


No this debate has roots in my UPCI days from being around so many Apostolics now for 21 years. I see people having baptism preached to them as the gospel in many cases instead of having Christ preached to them. Hey I'm a total outcast in many circles for believing baptism is a pre-new birth experience. I will not compromise that. But instead of preaching baptism as the gospel, let's preach what the apostles preached. I gave you allot of scripture as to what they preached. Somehow you thought the fact that I posted so many supporting verses actually weakened my argument. I've witnessed many Bible studies over the years for people wanting baptism that dealt with ONE thing...that being..."what should the baptizer invoke over you?". Nothing about the resurrection, nothing about the glorification of Christ and his authority to forgive sins. Baptism is just a "step" instead of a response to being smitten with conviction for the need to bow to the glorified Christ.This method subtly places the converts faith in the baptism itself instead of the Christ of the baptism.

Sean
06-23-2014, 08:46 AM
I know brother, I, have only seen the phrase "magic' referring to the name of Jesus, come from trinitarians arguing against us and trying to "predudice" the audience. When Oscar Hill tried that on Marvin Hicks, hill was publicly destroyed by Hicks on that statement.

It just "triggered" my response, the way I did to get to the root of the statement. I have never in my life ever heard a oneness believer use that term the way you just did. I was "taken back" by that from you.

I was just trying to get you to eliminate it from your vocabulary, old habits die hard...LOL

Originalist
06-23-2014, 08:52 AM
I know brother, I, have only seen the phrase "magic' referring to the name of Jesus, come from trinitarians arguing against us and trying to "predudice" the audience. When Oscar Hill tried that on Marvin Hicks, hill was publicly destroyed by Hicks on that statement.

It just "triggered" my response, the way I did to get to the root of the statement. I have never in my life ever heard a oneness believer use that term the way you just did. I was "taken back" by that from you.

I was just trying to get you to eliminate it from your vocabulary, old habits die hard...LOL

Point taken. Sometimes I think when debating Trinitarians on baptism we should focus first on explaining scripturally how it is a pre-salvation experience and not just some "post salvation act of worship".

Sean
06-23-2014, 09:01 AM
Amen, you know bro., as a side note, I am actually getting fellowship from our discussions, and for that matter, all of the debates and discussions we all deal with. I was thinking, if I started going back to church and got busy in the work of God, I would likely fall off the radar here. This has been my "crutch", during these times. This AFF site has been a blessing to me, not just challenging my beliefs, but for the most part, the interaction with my fellow saints. (that dont exactly see it my way). I have had to but my prejudices aside and call anyone baptized in Jesus' name my brother, regardless of their point of view.
It has enhanced my perspective of the saints immensely.....

Originalist
06-23-2014, 09:06 AM
Amen, you know bro., as a side note, I am actually getting fellowship from our discussions, and for that matter, all of the debates and discussions we all deal with. I was thinking, if I started going back to church and got busy in the work of God, I would likely fall off the radar here. This has been my "crutch", during these times. This AFF site has been a blessing to me, not just challenging my beliefs, but for the most part, the interaction with my fellow saints. (that dont exactly see it my way). I have had to but my prejudices aside and call anyone baptized in Jesus' name my brother, regardless of their point of view.
It has enhanced my perspective of the saints immensely.....


I am glad we can have the attitude you mentioned above. It's a mark of spiritual maturity IMO.

mfblume
06-23-2014, 08:07 PM
I agree with Oneness Pentecostals:

The Oneness of God, Jesus Only.

Acts 2:38 is the full plan of salvation.

Me, too.