View Full Version : Matthew 24 fulfilled
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 01:58 PM
Don't know how anyone can read that chapter and think it applies to us today.
Don't know how anyone can read that chapter and think it applies to us today.
Some make a living off of it.
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 02:40 PM
Some make a living off of it.
Yeah, like tithe. :)
Don't know how anyone can read that chapter and think it applies to us today.
Are you a preterist?
houston
10-08-2014, 04:05 PM
Are you a preterist? I'm an impartial preterist
I'm an impartial preterist
LOL
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 04:49 PM
I have preterist beliefs.
I have preterist beliefs.
Thanks
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 05:50 PM
I just happen to believe Matt 24 happened when he said it would.
I just happen to believe Matt 24 happened when he said it would.
Would you be interested in seeing my breakdown of it?
I will not debate the subject, but just share what I believe.
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 06:40 PM
Fire away
Okay, here goes...BTW..I am a pre/mid tribber.*......This was in last years debate with preterists.....
Matthew 24
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews part. ad70
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is during the tribulation and its ending.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.
NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord. You guys blended it all together into the part of the Jews being dispersed only....This is what I call logical eschatology.(Notice, that I use very little commentary?). I showed you something easily understood, the way the gospel should be understood....simply
Note, I did not copy and paste this from elsewhere, I just have realized it and taught it that way.
I will not debate preterists anymore though. Im just sharing ideas here. Thanks
I did one on Luke also. Let me know if you are interested.
Truthseeker
10-08-2014, 08:46 PM
I believe you means you. Time statements and all the "you/ye" shows me he was warning them what they would see and experience. You never means them.
UnTraditional
10-09-2014, 05:48 AM
So, the Rapture/Catching Away of the Church has already taken place?
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24:29-31)
Sorry Charlie. This Matthew 24 fulfilled doctrine holds no water unless the Rapture has also happened. Unless you can prove that we are no longer here, you have no scriptural leg to stand upon.
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 06:05 AM
So, the Rapture/Catching Away of the Church has already taken place?
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24:29-31)
Sorry Charlie. This Matthew 24 fulfilled doctrine holds no water unless the Rapture has also happened. Unless you can prove that we are no longer here, you have no scriptural leg to stand upon.
True if Jesus came already who are we?
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 06:27 AM
These men also taught the resurrection was already passed.
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Their followers are still with us today.
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 06:33 AM
I believe you means you. Time statements and all the "you/ye" shows me he was warning them what they would see and experience. You never means them.
So all the you's written to Romans were only for them and not for us? How about the Ephesians? Were all the you's addressed to THEM ONLY FOR THEM?
How about the Corinthians? Is your name mentioned anywhere there? So then none of it applies to you! How about the Galatians? Since your name isn't in it it I guess it does not apply to you.
See what this does to faith? It destroys it.
These men also taught the resurrection was already passed.
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Their followers are still with us today.
Great scripture MTD. I like to reference this one often. :thumbsup
mfblume
10-09-2014, 09:00 AM
Matt 24 does not mention anything about the rapture or resurrection. In fact the entire book of Matthew does not mention it. It's in 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15 and John 5, primarily. The resurrection of the physical body is still to come. What people take for resurrection in Matt 24 is the exact same wording found at the end of Matt 23 concerning "gather together." It's nothing to do with resurrection in Matt 23, so why say it is in Matt 24?
Matthew 23:37 KJV O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 24:31 KJV And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
HERE IS MY LUKE 21 OUTLINE I PROMISED....Notice, no long explanations...Just easily understood passages laid out for the simple folks to read. The kind Jesus wants to save. Even a CAVEMAN could understand it...LOL
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
They asked Jesus ONLY about the destruction of the temple here, but Jesus gives them more info than they actually asked for, just like Matt. 24...
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven......
Now this above is the series of General signs before His 2nd coming.
Notice now..."but (before) all these", addressing their original question...
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. At this point, Jesus is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem explanation and proceeds to speak of His 2nd coming signs...
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. These above are the signs that Jesus wanted to point out of His 2nd coming in these end times.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Here, Jesus gives us a warning to watch for these signs, before His return...FOR THE WHOLE EARTH....LOOK BELOW
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the (whole earth).
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 03:52 PM
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh
Proves it happens in their lifetime.
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 03:53 PM
True if Jesus came already who are we?
In the kingdom.
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 03:56 PM
These men also taught the resurrection was already passed.
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Their followers are still with us today.
If the resurrection happened in 70ad then this guys were wrong. How could people be trick in the church if rapture/ resurrection was some big climatic physical event?
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 03:58 PM
What is definition of the word you?
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 04:39 PM
In the kingdom.
Oh so now we are immortal? We are now ruling the nations! The demons are in the lake of fire! There is no more sickness or pain! The Sun is no more giving light!
So this is fulfilled prophecy? I will continue in patient waiting for the coming of Yeshua to gather together his elect.
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 04:41 PM
If the resurrection happened in 70ad then this guys were wrong. How could people be trick in the church if rapture/ resurrection was some big climatic physical event?
Well yeah. Dont you preterists believe Christ came in 70 ad? Isnt that what your doctrine is all about?
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 05:55 PM
What is definition of the word you?
Bump
Michael The Disciple
10-09-2014, 06:26 PM
If the resurrection happened in 70ad then this guys were wrong. How could people be trick in the church if rapture/ resurrection was some big climatic physical event?
Because in those days news traveled slow. No radio, television, internt or even pony express. If someone made up a lie and told it in town there might not be any way to test it immediately.
mfblume
10-09-2014, 09:01 PM
Matthew 24:34 GNB Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
Truthseeker
10-09-2014, 09:30 PM
Matthew 24:34 GNB Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
Yep
mfblume
10-10-2014, 07:38 AM
Yep
No on ever remarks about that version's interpretation
No on ever remarks about that version's interpretation
Just Google it, its a joke, like the 50 or so "other" versions that were invented to fit the authors' theology. You are really desperate Mike to use that junk. Look the the KJV and notice it says something quite different.
Two opposing passages, hmmm. The Received Text version(KJV) is the reliable text ONLY, especially in these cases.
Matt 24:34....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.....KJV
Matt 24 :34.... 34 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died....GNB
HMMMMMMMMMM....!!!!!!, That will definitely satisfy copyright laws....LOL
mfblume
10-10-2014, 07:53 PM
Just Google it, its a joke, like the 50 or so "other" versions that were invented to fit the authors' theology. You are really desperate Mike to use that junk. Look the the KJV and notice it says something quite different.
Two opposing passages, hmmm. The Received Text version(KJV) is the reliable text ONLY, especially in these cases.
Matt 24:34....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.....KJV
Matt 24 :34.... 34 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died....GNB
HMMMMMMMMMM....!!!!!!, That will definitely satisfy copyright laws....LOL
I believed it meant that before I even knew another version flatly stated it. "This" meant the one to whom he spoke. He did not say "that." It's simple English.
Preachers who aren't even preterist can see that.
I believed it meant that before I even knew another version flatly stated it. "This" meant the one to whom he spoke. He did not say "that." It's simple English.
Preachers who aren't even preterist can see that.
That Bible is a complete mess, that is riddled with biased opinionated concepts. Mike do you know how this and the other non recieved text Bibles came about? They are all under copyright laws and each one must say something different from each other to the tune of 50,000 words, That means that the 50 or so bibles out there have a differing point of view 50 different ways.
You or I could make a Bible with that kind of understanding. All we have to do is get the 50 Bibles and make sure our Bible is different by at least 15% of the 50 others'. It will sell to the folks that believe like we interpret it to say,
Remember, ALL of these Bibles, other than the KJV have modern day AUTHORS that are behind them all. None of these authors will create their version contrary to their beliefs.
The KJV is completely different, in that it was ordered to be copied from thousands of agreeing manuscripts, using 54 translators. They had to agree, line by line to get the final passages resolved.
This may educate you on the subject some.... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jesus-is-savior.com%2FBible%2FThe%2520King%2520James%2520Bi ble%2FTranslators%2Ftranslators.htm&ei=npQ4VPrAIY20ogTfvYCICQ&usg=AFQjCNEoS0I2ssMZEjvDa2P7pxP77Vw8oQ&bvm=bv.77161500,d.cGU
BTW...The KJV, derived from the Textus Receptus, has NEVER been under any kind of copyright law. It is the Word of God. It is the Bible that the Lord has preserved for our generation. All the others are nothing less than counterfeits, derived from a discarded manuscript found in Egypt(Alexandrian text).
Anybody interested should watch this...it will "fix" your beliefs about the right Bible to read....https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KbikBVVkrNA
mfblume
10-10-2014, 08:41 PM
[COLOR="Red"]That Bible is a complete mess, that is riddled with biased opinionated concepts.
Like I said, I concluded the same thing from KJV study of the passage. That version had no bearing on my conclusions. I found it agreed later!
Mike do you know how this and the other non recieved text Bibles came about? They are all under copyright laws and each one must say something different from each other to the tune of 50,000 words, That means that the 50 or so bibles out there have a differing point of view 50 different ways.
Obviously that made no difference in my analysis of the KJV version of that passage. I have done much study on the received text and manuscript evidence, btw. I know how the TR is superior.
Ever Read Edward HIlls' THE KJV DEFENDED?
Like I said, I concluded the same thing from KJV study of the passage. That version had no bearing on my conclusions. I found it agreed later!
Obviously that made no difference in my analysis of the KJV version of that passage. I have done much study on the received text and manuscript evidence, btw. I know how the TR is superior.
Ever Read Edward HIlls' THE KJV DEFENDED?
I know what you believe Mike, I was surprised that you "tossed" that guys' "commentary" bible out there. I kinda thought you were a KJV guy like me.
I was worried that Pastor Febus was getting the best of you for a minute...LOL
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 08:51 PM
Matthew 24:33 KJV
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
What does the word you mean in this text?
Matthew 24:33 KJV
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
What does the word you mean in this text?
"YOU" is the saints that would ACTUALLY SEE these events described prior to the passage. These events that HAVE NOT HAPPENED yet.
To clarify, if WE(you and I), see the signs here.....
1 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Then, when we BEGIN to see these things happen...LOOK UP!...
Luke 21:28
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 10:06 PM
He said "when ye (you) see these things" clear he was speaking of them he spoke to.
He said "when ye (you) see these things" clear he was speaking of them he spoke to.
Only the 12 disciples?
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 10:21 PM
I believed it meant that before I even knew another version flatly stated it. "This" meant the one to whom he spoke. He did not say "that." It's simple English.
Preachers who aren't even preterist can see that.
Like this?
Luke 17:25 KJV
But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
"This" generation was describing a generation to see particular multiple events in prophecy.
As in.....Verily I say unto you, This(particular) generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.(see these events fulfilled, they will happen in 7 years, not multiple generations)
The fact that these end time events have not occurred, lets us know that we are still LOOKING for the particular generation the Lord was addressing.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:00 PM
There is no indication in that chapter it was gong to happen beyond those he spoke to. He said you over and over.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:02 PM
Matthew 24:4-5 KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
"Deceive you" not them
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:05 PM
" Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
"Shall deliver you up" not them. He was warning them what was going to happen to them.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:08 PM
Matthew 24:15-16 KJV
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
"When ye(you) therefore shall see" not them. They were to flea into the mountains from Judea. Shows what was going to happen was local to that area.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:09 PM
Matthew 24:20 KJV
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
"Your"
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:10 PM
Matthew 24:20, 25-26 KJV
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
"You"
Matthew 24:20 KJV
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
"Your"
Review my "breakdown" of Matt. in this thread and you will find it's category. (The one I did before Luke)
Matthew 24:20, 25-26 KJV
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
"You"
Same as above
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:19 PM
Who is the you in this text?
Matthew 24:9 KJV
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:26 PM
Post #12
I saw it, there is just nothing in the text that indicates he was warning different groups thousands of years apart.
You do realize apostle taught they were living in the last days and at the end of the world?
Who is the you in this text?
Matthew 24:9 KJV
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
I already told you a few posts ago
Did you read my posts on Matt and Luke?
I saw it, there is just nothing in the text that indicates he was warning different groups thousands of years apart.
The whole new testament is that way, it was written to certain folks...or was it?
You do realize apostle taught they were living in the last days and at the end of the world?
Yes, but Nobody was to know the day of the Lords' return, not even Jesus himself. He only shared the signs that were revealed to him of his Father. Every generation since has hope for His return, but they/we get the same signs.
We are still in the Last Days
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:40 PM
The apostles taught it as a real fact.
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:41 PM
We are still in the Last Days
Last days for thousands of years?
Yes, it can be considered a "time period", like "grace"
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
It is still happening....
Good night, I gotta go garage sale-ing in the am
Truthseeker
10-10-2014, 11:57 PM
Good night, I gotta go garage sale-ing in the am
Enjoy!
mfblume
10-11-2014, 06:05 PM
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
It is still happening....
Who said it isn't?
mfblume
10-11-2014, 06:26 PM
Matthew 24 shows Jesus walking from the temple after having shocked them out of their wits about destruction in their lifetimes. In that previous chapter, He said Jerusalem would have been "gathered together" like a hen gathers its chicks in safety from a coming onslaught, but they refused.
Having said that, and nothing about anybody's distant future thousands of years later, the stage was set for the questions of the disciples. They just heard Him speak of THEIR DAY and THEIR GENERATION.
Matthew 23:36-37 KJV Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This is important, since the IDENTICAL TERMS are used later for the faithful people being gathered instead, and the timeframe remained the same -- the generation they were then living in.
So the, disciples show Him the very temple He just said would be destroyed. Why? Because of the words He just spoke in Ch. 23 about its destruction.
Matthew 24:1 KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Jesus repeats His assertion from Ch 23, not one stone would be left standing.
Matthew 24:2 KJV And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This moves the disciples to ask about HIS COMING.
Matthew 24:3 KJV And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
THE SAME CONVERSATION is recorded in Mark 13 and Luke 21, but phrased slightly different due to the writer and the ingenious wisdom of the Spirit inspiring the writer, because the variance in terminology narrows down the meaning of those questions.
Mark 13:2-4 KJV And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, (4) Tell us, color=red]when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?[/color]
Luke 21:6-7 KJV As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
When they ask for the SIGN OF HIS COMING in Matt 24, that is a variation of the same question found in Mark and Luke of the SIGN WHEN THESE THINGS COME TO PASS. In order to realize what they meant, we put all the forms of the same questions together and come to this undeniable conclusion: the LORD WOULD COME WHEN THE TEMPLE IS DESTROYED.
The SIGN in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 is one and the same SIGN. It is phrased differently in each Gospel just like every other conversation recorded in all three gospels changes the words slightly. If the SIGN of His coming is the same SIGN when THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, we have to learn what THESE THINGS COME TO PASS is referring to. Jesus said the words "THESE THINGS" before they asked, informing us their questions pointed to the very thing He referred to first--- THE BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE BEING DESTROYED STONE BY STONE.
Without comparing the various versions of the same conversation, one would miss all of this, which is precisely why people reject the concept of a coming of the Lord in the first century when the temple was destroyed.
Jesus formerly spoke in Matthew about HIS COMING in destruction, not once having spoken earlier in Matthew anywhere about HIS SECOND COMING which is definitely still future.
Matthew 10:23 KJV But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 16:28 KJV Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 21:40-41 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? (41) They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons... Matthew 21:45 KJV And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
There is no other reference before Matt 24 ABOUT HIS COMING in all of Matthew that refers to the second coming. Matthew only recorded His words about a first century coming. THE SECOND COMING that is definitely future is found in John 5, 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, as well as a few other places in the epistles. But not in Matthew. the context of Matthew's COMING of the Lord is a first century coming alone.
continued...
mfblume
10-11-2014, 06:55 PM
We learn the questions the disciples asked were synonymous and NOT ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT THINGS. The Bible often rephrased the same concept in one conversation since it was a Hebrew way of speaking.
When they asked about the END OF THE WORLD, the Greek word for WORLD is actually better translated as AGE. THE END OF THE AGE.
Jesus said NOTHING before their questions to make them ask about thousands of years in the distant future. They just heard Him speak about their day when the temple would be destroyed. WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK HE TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING THEY NEVER EVEN ASKED ABOUT? Their questions were all about THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION. If you were alive in that day and heard the words of the previous chapter, Matthew 23, would YOU ask about events to come thousands of years later?
lol
Jerusalem's temple was instituted back in Solomon's day, and time never passed very long before a new one was built after a previous one was destroyed. THERE IS STILL NO TEMPLE THERE after almost two thousand years! And they asked about something different than that monstrously monumental issue to occur in their day? The proposect seems foolish in light of context.
After having asked the Lord of the SIGN OF HIS COMING, when the temple would be destroyed, he proceeded the answer them.
Matthew 24:4-12 KJV And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Jesus addresses several things that He emphasizes were not the SIGN they asked about. These were things to occur before the SIGN. However, in each case, He distinctly noted the second personal pronouns YE, and YOU. This repeats the same emphasis from the previous chapter where they would experience the destruction of the temple and city, and the "THESE THINGS" regarding the same.
Incidentally, the list of the seals in Revelation 6 fall in the EXACT SAME SEQUENCE as these are listed here. Matthew 24 is Christ's interpretation of Revelation 6.
Between the time of the cross and the destruction of the city, there were more false prophets than ever since everyone knew Daniel's prophecy of Messiah coming after 69 weeks was THAT TIME PERIOD. So they were all claiming to be the Messiah of Daniel's prophecy. Earthquakes abounded which is recorded in ancient history of that time. The book of Acts speaks of quakes, famines, etc. Christians were persecuted in the first century right in the Book of Acts!
Jesus never said those things would never happen again, but just that THEY would see them IN THAT DAY in MORE ABUNDANCE.
Matthew 24:13-14 KJV But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
This was fulfilled before Paul finished his epistles. The gospel of the kingdom going to all the world was distinctly mentioned as done by Paul:
Colossians 1:5-6 KJV For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (6) Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Colossians 1:23 KJV If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
If Paul said the gospel went to all the world at his time, then he obviously meant the then-known world. That is what Jesus meant as well. The phraseology of "all the world" was commonly used in the New Testament to only refer to the then-known jurisdiction of the Roman empire.
Luke 2:1 KJV And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
All NATIONS in Greek means ALL TRIBES. The END that would come was the end they asked about... THE END OF THE AGE. Not the planet.
Continued...
mfblume
10-11-2014, 07:05 PM
Matthew 24:15-16 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
As with the questions the disciples asked, we have to compare this version in Matthew with Luke 21 and Mark 13 to narrow it down and reveal the correct picture.
Mark 13:14 KJV But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luke 21:20-21 KJV And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Obviously the abomination would occur when the city was surrounded by Roman armies, which occurred in the first century. THE WHOLE CITY WAS A HOLY PLACE. When the Romans came into the city, they brought standards which were IDOLS ON POLES. Idols came into the holy city. Even the temple was trespassed by these idol carrying Romans.
History records the CHURCH fled the city when Cestius Gallus approached with armies and, for not apparent reason, backed off. If the Christians did not believe it was their day and stayed, they would have PERISHED. BUT NOT ONE PERISHED! Like myself, and others, they believed the Lord meant THEIR DAY. THANK GOD THEY DID!
continued...
HERE IS MY LUKE 21 OUTLINE I PROMISED....Notice, no long explanations...Just easily understood passages laid out for the simple folks to read. The kind Jesus wants to save. Even a CAVEMAN could understand it...LOL
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
They asked Jesus ONLY about the destruction of the temple here, but Jesus gives them more info than they actually asked for, just like Matt. 24...
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven......
Now this above is the series of General signs before His 2nd coming.
Notice now..."but (before) all these", addressing their original question...
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. At this point, Jesus is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem explanation and proceeds to speak of His 2nd coming signs...
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. These above are the signs that Jesus wanted to point out of His 2nd coming in these end times.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Here, Jesus gives us a warning to watch for these signs, before His return...FOR THE WHOLE EARTH....LOOK BELOW
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the (whole earth).
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Again, for the reader
Okay, here goes...BTW..I am a pre/mid tribber.*......This was in last years debate with preterists.....
Matthew 24
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews part. ad70
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is during the tribulation and its ending.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.
NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord. You guys blended it all together into the part of the Jews being dispersed only....This is what I call logical eschatology.(Notice, that I use very little commentary?). I showed you something easily understood, the way the gospel should be understood....simply
Note, I did not copy and paste this from elsewhere, I just have realized it and taught it that way.
I will not debate preterists anymore though. Im just sharing ideas here. Thanks
Again for the reader.....
HERE IS MY LUKE 21 OUTLINE I PROMISED....Notice, no long explanations...Just easily understood passages laid out for the simple folks to read. The kind Jesus wants to save. Even a CAVEMAN could understand it...LOL
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
They asked Jesus ONLY about the destruction of the temple here, but Jesus gives them more info than they actually asked for, just like Matt. 24...
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven......
Now this above is the series of General signs before His 2nd coming.
Notice now..."but (before) all these", addressing their original question...
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. At this point, Jesus is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem explanation and proceeds to speak of His 2nd coming signs...
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. These above are the signs that Jesus wanted to point out of His 2nd coming in these end times.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Here, Jesus gives us a warning to watch for these signs, before His return...FOR THE WHOLE EARTH....LOOK BELOW
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the (whole earth).
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
So according to you, men's hearts failing them with fear and the powers of the heavens shaken has zero to do with the "these be the days of vengeance" since there is a 2000+ year jump between verse 24 & 25, correct ?
Just curious, do u also believe in the Gap theory in relation to creation?
Do u believe the listeners mistakingly thought that Jesus was referring to them, when he said "this generation..."?
And do you believe the listeners understood that 2000+ year gap between was was later labeled as vs24 & 25, as you see it?
So according to you, men's hearts failing them with fear and the powers of the heavens shaken has zero to do with the "these be the days of vengeance" since there is a 2000+ year jump between verse 24 & 25, correct ? Correct.
Just curious, do u also believe in the Gap theory in relation to creation? No
Do u believe the listeners mistakingly thought that Jesus was referring to them, when he said "this generation..."? No, it was spoken of as a "certain" generation.
There was no indication to the Apostles which generation these events would happen, other than the destruction of Jerusalem(which was spoken of as an independent matter..ie..."when shall these things be?").
And do you believe the listeners understood that 2000+ year gap between was was later labeled as vs24 & 25, as you see it?
No, they did not. This passage below was thought by them to be in their generation, but the Lord knew that ALL generations would read it. The "warning" below would be to a "certain" generation. The Lord "allows" all men to think it is their generation so they will be watching and be ready for the return of the BRIDEGROOM, as in Matt. 25.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
houston
10-12-2014, 06:08 AM
Really? Jesus said "you" to personalize it for a later generation? Ignorance IS a bliss.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.(days of His veangance-no fear?)
Ad70
2014+
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth
I can see where one would say the listeners would've missed a confusing 2000 year leap here...agreed.
I just believe they were right :)
mfblume
10-12-2014, 03:54 PM
The problem I see with prophecy is the lack of explanations. Two thousand years ago terms were used to speak of the then-known world that we take today as the entire planet because TERMS HAVE CHANGED. Unless we explain the first century thinking to a 21st century reader, THEY WILL GET IT WRONG. They will read it through 21st century lenses which is why there is futurism to begin with.
Without explanations, a two thousand year old statement will not be properly understood. Half a world of culture away with two thousand years thrown in DEMANDS explanation.
mfblume
10-12-2014, 04:17 PM
CONTINUATION.
Matthew 24:16-21 KJV Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Why did Jesus tell people ONLY IN JUDAEA to flee to the mountains? Because then would be great tribulation. If it was wordlwide tribulation, He would nto have restricted it to JUDAEA.
Matthew 24:22-28 KJV And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (25) Behold, I have told you before. (26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. (27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
All Israelites would have perished if God did not step in and preserve the Jews. So long as there is a church there will be JEWS, because the CHURCH was meant FIRST FOR JEWS, and then Gentiles came in on the action with them. And the church is also known as the ELECT in the epistles, so it was cutting the thing short for the church's sake as well.
False prophets were warned about again.
THE EAGLES clearly depicted the Roman armies who carried idols of eagles in their ranks..
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
After the tribulation Jesus made us of the OLD TESTAMENT Hebrew manners of speaking to describe the horrors of a kingdom collapsing. STARS FALLING AND SUN AND MOON DARKENING. None of that really happened when THE SAME PHRASE was used in these passages, but kingdoms actually fell:
Isaiah 13:1, 10,13 - BABYLON'S fall.
Ezekiel 32:7-8 - EGYPT'S fall
Isaiah 34:4-5 - EDOM'S fall
THE SAME WORDS "gather together" were used in Matt 23:37, and that was not talking about the rapture. Why say it does here? Because of the trumpet? Trumpets sounded for many reasons. The gathering together of the elect is the SALVATION MESSAGE going out to gather them from sin, as chicks gathered to safety by the hen. Nothing about resurrection here. ELECT are those to be saved.
Matthew 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The SIGN is not the Lord Himself. It is a SIGN that HE IS IN HEAVEN. Jesus WENT IN CLOUDS INTO HEAVEN according to:
Daniel 7:13 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
THE SIGN that He is IN HEAVEN is the destruction of the city and temple to FULFILL HIS WORDS in Matt 24:2. The sign is not Jesus. Jesus is never a sign. lol. He is what the SIGNS POINT TO.
ALL THE TRIBES of the EARTH in Greek is TRIBES OF THE LAND. What mourning they had for the temple destruction!
Seeing the SON OF MAN coming in CLOUDS is an OLD TESTAMENT JUDGMENT WAY OF SPEAKING of wrath.
2 Samuel 22:11-12 KJV And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. (12) And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.
No man ever saw God at any time. But here we read God was SEEN. And the same passage says THICK CLOUDS were with Him. This is simply speaking of JUDGMENT. Unless we become familiar with the REST OF THE BIBLE we will invariably MISTAKEN this to mean FACE-VALUE things. So, again, lack of explanation leaves people who are not aware of these other passages to misunderstand the,m. YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR BIBLE to know prophecy OR YOU WILL GET IT WRONG.. It's not just long explanations. IT IS BIBLE REFERENCING I AM DOING.
Matthew 24:32-34 KJV Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The FIG TREE IS NOT ISRAEL! The fig tree putting forth leaves here IS ALL THESE THINGS COMING TO PASS THAT HE LISTED. He flatly stated that! Like the fig tree putting leaves, WHEN WE SEE ALL THESE THINGS --- NOT SOME OF THEM -- the destruction of the temple will come.
ONE GENERATION would see ALL those events. NOT SOME OF THEM. The same generation that saw the temple destruction would see ALL THE REST.
Continued...
mfblume
10-12-2014, 04:25 PM
Matthew 24:35-42 KJV Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
No man would know the HOUR OF DESTRUCTION. Jesus would COME in DESTRUCTION.
Matthew 21:40-41 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? (41) They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
The FLOOD CAME like JESUS WOULD COME---- TO DESTROY.
The ones TAKEN BY THE FLOOD were taken in destruction. Jesus is like the flood. HE WOULD COME AND TAKE PEOPLE IN DEATH. The ones who were TAKEN were the ones marrying, giving in marriage who KNEW NOT til the FLOOD TOOK THEM.
So shall it be when Jesus comes. In other words when Jesus said ONE IS TAKEN form the field and the other left, THE TAKEN MUST BE SINNERS who are destroyed by the coming, because IT WAS SINNERS TAKEN BY THE FLOOD in Noah's day.
You do not say it was like Noah's day when you speak of people being taken and mean a rapture to safety if you just said NOAH'S day saw people TAKEN in destruction! You have to be consistent with WHO IS "TAKEN" between both stories if both stories including a TAKING and you said, "As it was then, so shall it be when Jesus comes." . If sinners were "TAKEN" in Noah's day then SINNERS are "TAKEN" when Jesus comes according to this chapter.
To say this is the rapture taking saints is so full of grammatical errors, an English teacher would pull his/her hair all out! lol
continued..
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 04:32 PM
When you consider stuff that bro Blume posted there is not doubt Matt 24 is fulfilled.
mfblume
10-12-2014, 04:37 PM
Matthew 24:42-44 KJV Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
AGAIN DESTRUCTION is the point. Just like NOAH'S FLOOD DESTROYED the ones it TOOK, Jesus spoke of DESTRUCTION coming. The THIEF is not said to have stolen anything in this passage. Everyone only thinks of thieves stealing, which they indeed do. But that is not the point Jesus made. Jesus RESTRICTED His thoughts to the destruction of a home that the thief causes. THAT DESTRUCTION is the only thing Jesus used to compare with His coming. Like the flood taking sinners in destruction, the thief came to destroy the house.
It is amazing how people mix Noah's story and this thief story up. Jesus would come at an unexpected MOMENT OF DESTRUCTION just like the FLOOD DID. JUST LIKE THE THIEF DID.
How people TWIST these verses to show a rapture is unbelievable. It's only from hearing it for two hundred times over and over again that people think that way. No one reading this for the first time without influence from tradition would think of the rapture!
mfblume
10-12-2014, 04:40 PM
Matthew 24:45-51 KJV Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
AGAIN DESTRUCTION ALONE is the issue. NOTHING about a rapture.
We read NOTHING -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a rapture when He comes here. Just cutting people asunder, like the flood taking sinners in death and the thief coming and breaking up the house. It's nothing but a coming in destruction. To say anything else is to get an interpretation from a tradition that does not even make sense when you read the actual chapter without traditional influence.
mfblume
10-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Destruction is that coming we read about in Matt 24:
Matthew 24:38-39 KJV For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:43 KJV But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:50-51 KJV The lord of that servant shall come......And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
THE COMING WAS ONLY IN DESTRUCTION.
The disciples KNEW THAT because of what they heard in Matt 23 about the temple destruction. So when they heard Jesus speak of the temple destruction they immediately connected it WITH HIS COMING.
Matthew 24:2-3 KJV And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The ONLY COMING they ever heard Him talk about in Matthew before this chapter was DESTRUCTION.
Matthew 21:40-41 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? (41) They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
When you consider stuff that bro Blume posted there is not doubt Matt 24 is fulfilled.
As you wish.
It is interesting to me, when somebody said months ago, that preterism is a majority of the opinion in Christianity. That is "whistling in the graveyard to keep one's courage up". I have been around thousands of saints and dozens of churches in my 35 years of walking with God. I am in driving distance to the largest UPC church in North America, and its many surrounding churches. Even my friends of other denominations have never heard of it.
The first time I ever heard of this idea is last year(2013). I still know of NO churches or saints that believe in it. I am interviewing ministers and saints whenever possible to see what they believe.
My conclusion is that only a handful of folks believe in preterism and they hang out as "outcasts" on the internet. They seek each other out online and each others favor to keep the faith.
I am being objective in my conclusion here. I am still seeking out preterists in my general area to no avail.
Good luck guys....
mfblume
10-12-2014, 09:49 PM
It is interesting to me, when somebody said months ago, that preterism is a majority of the opinion in Christianity. That is "whistling in the graveyard to keep one's courage up". I have been around thousands of saints and dozens of churches in my 35 years of walking with God. I am in driving distance to the largest UPC church in North America, and its many surrounding churches. Even my friends of other denominations have never heard of it.
The first time I ever heard of this idea is last year(2013). I still know of NO churches or saints that believe in it. I am interviewing ministers and saints whenever possible to see what they believe.
My conclusion is that only a handful of folks believe in preterism and they hang out as "outcasts" on the internet. They seek each other out online and each others favor to keep the faith.
I am being objective in my conclusion here. I am still seeking out preterists in my general area to no avail.
Good luck guys....
You need to go out more. lol ;)
I met apostolic preachers who believed this for thirty years.
But, nevertheless, who said counting heads determines truth, anyway?
Again, also, the BIBLE is the issue to deal with, not extrabiblical generalities like this.
You need to go out more. lol ;)
I met apostolic preachers who believed this for thirty years.
But, nevertheless, who said counting heads determines truth, anyway?
Again, also, the BIBLE is the issue to deal with, not extrabiblical generalities like this.
Mike, I just forgot to reply to that post back then when "crazy" showed up and ruined the party...LOL
Guys, I am through debating with preterists, however,I will gladly answer questions like the kind TRUTHSEEKER asked. That was fun and easy. If anyone that is objective would like to see my comparison of Paul quoting Jesus' rapture of Matt 24, feel free to ask.
(I saw this myself and was never taught it as a futurist.)
mfblume
10-13-2014, 10:04 AM
(I saw this myself and was never taught it as a futurist.)
No one would come up with a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel unless they were taught it. It's too gapless in the chapter for that. :) And there's so much preaching of matt 24 being our time of the last days that in our churches you could not avoid seeing it that way due to that influence.
TGBTG
10-13-2014, 10:27 AM
Guys, I am through debating with preterists, however,I will gladly answer questions like the kind TRUTHSEEKER asked. That was fun and easy. If anyone that is objective would like to see my comparison of Paul quoting Jesus' rapture of Matt 24, feel free to ask.
(I saw this myself and was never taught it as a futurist.)
Ok, since you will answer questions..lol. Let me ask you a couple of questions based on Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2:
I'm sure you know the back drop to the story, so I will just post starting from verse 31.
Dan 2 (KJV)
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (kingdom #1)
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom (kingdom #2) inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, (kingdom #3) which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom (kingdom #4) shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; (kingdom #4 shall be divided) but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. (kingdom #4 shall be partly strong, and partly broken)
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Questions:
1. Based on the passage above, how many kingdoms total were represented by the large statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision?
(my answer is: 4 kingdoms. what say you?)
2. In the passage above, who was the fourth kingdom?
(my answer: Rome. what say you?)
3. In the passage above, "the stone cut without hands" smashed the statue at its feet. Verse 44 interprets this action as: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
a) What does this stone represent?
(my answer: the kingdom established by God in the new testament during the Roman kingdom. what say you?)
b)The kingdom established by God destroys the statue by smashing at the fourth kingdom, filling the whole earth and will never be destroyed. What's your take on this?
(my answer: the new testament kingdom set up by God is the last kingdom. There will NEVER be another worldwide kingdom like the 4 mentioned in the passage again. The new testament kingdom will eventually fill the whole earth (ergo "Go ye into the world and make disciples of ALL nations..." What say you?)
4. Also, if you have any other comments on the vision in Daniel 2 from your view point, add it...thanks!
TGBTG
10-13-2014, 10:29 AM
No one would come up with a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel unless they were taught it. It's too gapless in the chapter for that. :) And there's so much preaching of matt 24 being our time of the last days that in our churches you could not avoid seeing it that way fue to that influence.
To play devil's advocate here, the first person that taught others about the gap in the 70 weeks must him/herself "discovered" it independently...haha
Ok, since you will answer questions..lol. Let me ask you a couple of questions based on Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2:
I'm sure you know the back drop to the story, so I will just post starting from verse 31.
Dan 2 (KJV)
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (kingdom #1)
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom (kingdom #2) inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, (kingdom #3) which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom (kingdom #4) shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; (kingdom #4 shall be divided) but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. (kingdom #4 shall be partly strong, and partly broken)
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Questions:
1. Based on the passage above, how many kingdoms total were represented by the large statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision?
(my answer is: 4 kingdoms. what say you?) Yes
2. In the passage above, who was the fourth kingdom?
(my answer: Rome. what say you?) Yes
3. In the passage above, "the stone cut without hands" smashed the statue at its feet. Verse 44 interprets this action as: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
a) What does this stone represent?
(my answer: the kingdom established by God in the new testament during the Roman kingdom. what say you?) The physical return of Jesus
b)The kingdom established by God destroys the statue by smashing at the fourth kingdom, filling the whole earth and will never be destroyed. What's your take on this? The physical millennium
(my answer: the new testament kingdom set up by God is the last kingdom. There will NEVER be another worldwide kingdom like the 4 mentioned in the passage again. The new testament kingdom will eventually fill the whole earth (ergo "Go ye into the world and make disciples of ALL nations..." What say you?)
This in my opinion is the physical kingdom, SMASHING ALL of the kingdoms of men, with the physical Jesus reigning on the physical earth.(notice, He hasn't even smashed Obama yet...LOL)
4. Also, if you have any other comments on the vision in Daniel 2 from your view point, add it...thanks!
No, I really see it as it is "Literally", even though a statue is used to illustrate to Nebuchadnezzar the future, they are REAL physical kingdoms, to be conquered by a REAL Physical kingdom to come. The Iron/Clay mix is the extended kingdom of Rome into all the world as "mixed" rulers...43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay....(notice how the nations are independent today and not ruled by a single empire.)
mfblume
10-13-2014, 02:05 PM
To play devil's advocate here, the first person that taught others about the gap in the 70 weeks must him/herself "discovered" it independently...haha
True. But the person certainly didn't require the bible to inform us of how we must believe to convict that error. Lol.
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