View Full Version : Losing gift of righteousness?
Truthseeker
10-11-2014, 01:30 AM
Romans 5:17 KJV
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
When does one lose the gift of righteousness?
Originalist
10-11-2014, 05:27 AM
Romans 5:17 KJV
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
When does one lose the gift of righteousness?
I believe it cannot be "lost" per say, but must be forsaken by rejecting the Lordship of Christ.
Praxeas
10-11-2014, 02:37 PM
Romans 5:17 KJV
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
When does one lose the gift of righteousness?
When they no longer have faith in Jesus
Romans 5:17 KJV
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
When does one lose the gift of righteousness?
When they are again dominated by a besetting sin....1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Truthseeker
10-11-2014, 03:06 PM
Sean, this scriptures are something I am still piecing together.
Do you consider yourself perfect without sin in daily practice?
mfblume
10-11-2014, 06:03 PM
I believe it cannot be "lost" per say, but must be forsaken by rejecting the Lordship of Christ.
Exactly.
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 12:58 AM
One will be cut off from Christ if they fail to bear fruit within a given time.
Luke 13:6-9
6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Apparently Yeshua reserves the right to cut one off if they dont bear the fruit he expects. Its not just that YOU have to decide to walk away from him.
He may give the command to cut someone off if he feels it necessary.
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 10:49 AM
I believe it cannot be "lost" per say, but must be forsaken by rejecting the Lordship of Christ.
You believe in the lordship salvation teaching?
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 10:50 AM
One will be cut off from Christ if they fail to bear fruit within a given time.
Luke 13:6-9
6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Apparently Yeshua reserves the right to cut one off if they dont bear the fruit he expects. Its not just that YOU have to decide to walk away from him.
He may give the command to cut someone off if he feels it necessary.
Who is the fig tree in the parable?
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 12:16 PM
Who is the fig tree in the parable?
Obvious isnt it? The fig tree is a person planted in the garden of Messiah.
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 12:21 PM
There are other ways one can lose the gift of righteousness.
Like this:
Rev 3:15-17
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
A Christian is one who is IN CHRIST. If we persist in being lukewarm he will vomit us OUT OF HIS MOUTH. We will no longer be IN CHRIST.
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 12:27 PM
Obvious isnt it? The fig tree is a person planted in the garden of Messiah.
How do you come to conclusion it is referring to an individual person? Could it not be speaking of natural Israel?
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 12:32 PM
How do you come to conclusion it is referring to an individual person? Could it not be speaking of natural Israel?
Why should it be? The scriptures show various ways an individual believer can be cut off and lose their salvation. This is simply a warning to disciples of Christ that he does not give them a blank check to continue going their own way.
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Why should it be? The scriptures show various ways an individual believer can be cut off and lose their salvation. This is simply a warning to disciples of Christ that he does not give them a blank check to continue going their own way.
So another words you have no evidence that supports its speaking of an individual?
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 01:26 PM
So another words you have no evidence that supports its speaking of an individual?
Well the pricipal is clear from other verses. Do you look at what the Lord said to the Laodiceans? Hes giving them time which is what the letter itself demonstrates. Warning them if they dont repent and get on fire he will vomit them out of his mouth.
Isnt that the same as saying he is giving them some space of time to repent.....otherwise he will put them out of his body thereby losing the precious gift of righteousness? Cutting them down?
Sean, this scriptures are something I am still piecing together.
Do you consider yourself perfect without sin in daily practice?
This, I believe is speaking of "besetting"(habitual) sins. They remove us from the Grace of God and put us back under the works of the flesh, to be judged by the Law. If I fall into the "daily sin" category, I am on this same path. I must keep my "old man" on the cross DAILY.
No excuse for me now. I AM free from sin.(but not sinless)
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 01:37 PM
Well the pricipal is clear from other verses. Do you look at what the Lord said to the Laodiceans? Hes giving them time which is what the letter itself demonstrates. Warning them if they dont repent and get on fire he will vomit them out of his mouth.
Isnt that the same as saying he is giving them some space of time to repent.....otherwise he will put them out of his body thereby losing the precious gift of righteousness? Cutting them down?
Interesting take here
http://hannahsvictory.com/blog/2012/07/16/lukewarm-will-god-really-vomit-you-out-of-his-mouth/
Truthseeker
10-12-2014, 01:39 PM
This, I believe is speaking of "besetting"(habitual) sins. They remove us from the Grace of God and put us back under the works of the flesh, to be judged by the Law. If I fall into the "daily sin" category, I am on this same path. I must keep my "old man" on the cross DAILY.
No excuse for me now. I AM free from sin.(but not sinless)
How do you keep him on the cross?
I thought we are to believe it is a fact already accomplished in Christ.
How do you keep him on the cross?
Prayer, fasting, staying in the word and refusing evil thoughts, etc.
I thought we are to believe it is a fact already accomplished in Christ.
Not when we are naughty
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 02:58 PM
Interesting take here
http://hannahsvictory.com/blog/2012/07/16/lukewarm-will-god-really-vomit-you-out-of-his-mouth/
Yeah I hear this kind of teaching about everyday. Its Evangelical 101. It totally takes the point Yeshua is making and twists it offering the lukewarm assurance when he offers them destruction.
Notice who the letter is written TO.
THE CHURCH AT LAODCEIA.
What is THE CHURCH? Is it not the people of YHWH? The body of Christ?
The womens whole point is it could not be written to a Christian BECAUSE TO HER BELIEF a Christian need not DO ANYTHING to be or stay saved.
Obviously this flies in the face of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
So this kind of teaching assures sinning, lukewarm people they need do nothing for salvation.
Its called "the finished work of Christ" and is the most soul damning doctrine of the day. Sweeping multitudes into the destruction of Hell fire.
Originalist
10-12-2014, 05:22 PM
You believe in the lordship salvation teaching?
The first thing that the Apostles preached to those they encountered was the Lordship of Christ, his exaltation. They glorified and exalted Christ within their outreach message before telling the sinner anything else about salvation. Christ's lordship was the centerpiece of the gospel, not US the sinners.
Therefore, if his Lordship is forsaken, salvation is forsaken.
Michael The Disciple
10-12-2014, 06:52 PM
The first thing that the Apostles preached to those they encountered was the Lordship of Christ, his exaltation. They glorified and exalted Christ within their outreach message before telling the sinner anything else about salvation. Christ's lordship was the centerpiece of the gospel, not US the sinners.
Therefore, if his Lordship is forsaken, salvation is forsaken.
Amen his Lordship WAS the centerpiece PTL.
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