Im almost out of time

[Originalist]

I have 8 days left to send in my dues to the Vatican in Hazlewood, Mo. or I lose my credentials.

To pay or not to pay. That is the question.

Being totally honest with myself, I do not see how having them has helped me or enhanced my ministry in the slightest. I can live without a free minister's meal after nightly camp meeting services. In fact I can live without camp meeting all together. Nothing will change in my life by giving them up except I'll have 50 dollars more a month to put in my gas tank instead of having to borrow from family members while seeking gainful employment. Since most churches are family owned businesses I'm not going to be referred to a church as pastor. I'll have to start my own church if I want to pastor. The only country that I felt any leading to go to as a missionary has been abandoned by the organization.

If I sell my property and move to a different State, the last thing I'm going to do is seek out a pastor to chain myself to and surrender all of my individuality and decision making to.

T-minus eight days and counting.

Tick tock tick tock

[Sean]

I have 8 days left to send in my dues to the Vatican in Hazlewood, Mo. or I lose my credentials.

To pay or not to pay. That is the question.

Being totally honest with myself, I do not see how having them has helped me or enhanced my ministry in the slightest. I can live without a free minister's meal after nightly camp meeting services. In fact I can live without camp meeting all together. Nothing will change in my life by giving them up except I'll have 50 dollars more a month to put in my gas tank instead of having to borrow from family members while seeking gainful employment. Since most churches are family owned businesses I'm not going to be referred to a church as pastor. I'll have to start my own church if I want to pastor. The only country that I felt any leading to go to as a missionary has been abandoned by the organization.

If I sell my property and move to a different State, the last thing I'm going to do is seek out a pastor to chain myself to and surrender all of my individuality and decision making to.

T-minus eight days and counting.

Tick tock tick tock



The ALJC is a whole lot cheaper I heard.

[BrotherEastman]

I have 8 days left to send in my dues to the Vatican in Hazlewood, Mo. or I lose my credentials.

To pay or not to pay. That is the question.

Being totally honest with myself, I do not see how having them has helped me or enhanced my ministry in the slightest. I can live without a free minister's meal after nightly camp meeting services. In fact I can live without camp meeting all together. Nothing will change in my life by giving them up except I'll have 50 dollars more a month to put in my gas tank instead of having to borrow from family members while seeking gainful employment. Since most churches are family owned businesses I'm not going to be referred to a church as pastor. I'll have to start my own church if I want to pastor. The only country that I felt any leading to go to as a missionary has been abandoned by the organization.

If I sell my property and move to a different State, the last thing I'm going to do is seek out a pastor to chain myself to and surrender all of my individuality and decision making to.

T-minus eight days and counting.

Tick tock tick tock

I honestly did not know you were licensed with the UPCI. Have you paid your district dues? What district are you in if you don't mind my asking?

[BrotherEastman]

The ALJC is a whole lot cheaper I heard.


My step-father is ALJC.

[Michael The Disciple]

It seems you know the answer. The UPC is not the same as The New Testament Church. You are Oneness and post trib. Move to Somerset Ky start a Church and I will come.

[Originalist]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

[BrotherEastman]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

Actually, I do as well.

[BrotherEastman]

It seems you know the answer. The UPC is not the same as The New Testament Church. You are Oneness and post trib. Move to Somerset Ky start a Church and I will come.

You would make a good pastor, why don't you start a church?

[votivesoul]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

It happens all the time all over the place.

New Jerusalem stones her prophets and kills the ones sent to her, too.

[Michael The Disciple]

You would make a good pastor, why don't you start a church?

I had been a Pastor/Elder for about 13 years in my life. I dont think I did a very good job of it. If the Lord brought it around again I would give it another try.

In the meantime lets get Originalist up here to Ky. Then instead of moving to Alaska you can move here and we we all be happy:highfive

[n david]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?
I've seen this in both the UPC and independent churches.

IMO, a Pastor should not preach more than a certain number of weeks a year; he should set aside services not only for evangelists or missionaries, but also a good number of weeks out of the year for ministers within the church to preach and grow in the ministry.

[Michael The Disciple]

I would love to get Votivesoul down here with us but he seems to be at the center of a rising New Testament Church where he is.

[BrotherEastman]

Whatever happened to the restoration of a minister?

[n david]

I have 8 days left to send in my dues to the Vatican in Hazlewood, Mo. or I lose my credentials.

To pay or not to pay. That is the question.

Being totally honest with myself, I do not see how having them has helped me or enhanced my ministry in the slightest.
Looks like you answered the question already. :)

[Michael The Disciple]

Whatever happened to the restoration of a minister?

Its real for sure. God does restore and use the broken. We dont want to lose sight of that.

[Sean]

I had been a Pastor/Elder for about 13 years in my life. I dont think I did a very good job of it. If the Lord brought it around again I would give it another try.

In the meantime lets get Originalist up here to Ky. Then instead of moving to Alaska you can move here and we we all be happy:highfive




If you guys have bluegrass music in your churches, Im on my way!

[Michael The Disciple]

If you guys have bluegrass music in your churches, Im on my way!

You got it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98jNS8MmEqw&list=PLQ4f6jJiJv7060clAGIFvRIQw5kJS6d13

[Michael The Disciple]

Guess we should check with Originalist about the music.

[Originalist]

Guess we should check with Originalist about the music.

I love Bluegrass and is naturally part of Kentucky's culture.

[Sean]

You got it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98jNS8MmEqw&list=PLQ4f6jJiJv7060clAGIFvRIQw5kJS6d13



Thats awesome stuff, the music of heaven...yehaaaa

[KeptByTheWord]

Will pray that the Lord will give you peace to make this decision.

[Praxeas]

The only real point in being licensed is to vote, Pastor a church or be an evangelist

Local preachers don't need one

[n david]

T-minus 7 days...

http://youtu.be/5JSCbEKsguQ

[votivesoul]

I would love to get Votivesoul down here with us but he seems to be at the center of a rising New Testament Church where he is.

Thanks, Brother Mike.

You know, the thought has hit me a lot that I wish you could come here to WI. Maybe one day the Lord will bring us all together before He comes???

But in the meantime, yes, God is stirring and changing things. The pace is quickening. There is still one major hurdle I see that will either make or break what God is doing, but I am praying and trusting in the Lord.

[Timmy]

I have 8 days left . . .

Sorry to hear that. But, well, we all gotta go some time. (Or should I read further? :heeheehee)

[Rudy]

So sorry things are the way they are. I don't know why the church situation is not working for many. Money and politics maybe? I'm hopeful that a place still exist where one can worship with like minded brethren.

Looking for a move myself..

[Rudy]

It seems you know the answer. The UPC is not the same as The New Testament Church. You are Oneness and post trib. Move to Somerset Ky start a Church and I will come.


Somerset looks very appealing.. I use to live in Lexington.

[Reader]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

We could examine their statistics. "4,459 churches (including daughter works and preaching points) and 9,413 ministers in 2013" comes directly from the UPCI official website. For years there have been many more licensed ministers than number of churches in the USA & Canada, even though there is always a push for establishing more churches.

[n david]

Forgive me if this comes across as bashing the UPC, I don't mean to. I've been in two districts where there were enough politics going on to make an episode of House of Cards.

We could examine their statistics. "4,459 churches (including daughter works and preaching points) and 9,413 ministers in 2013" comes directly from the UPCI official website. For years there have been many more licensed ministers than number of churches in the USA & Canada, even though there is always a push for establishing more churches.

According to the above statistic, there are 9,413 ministers in 4,459 churches. Could it be the reason more Pastors don't help other ministers under them to grow and succeed enough to branch out and start their own work is due to Pastors wanting to retain votes for district positions? I personally know a minister from another district who pushed to have young men in his church licensed so they could vote for him as a district superintendent. It worked, he's been elected and re-elected a few times now.

To me, that's a sad statistic. I know there are a few hundred nomad Evangelists in that number; however, it also means instead of Pastors sending out ministers to start other churches, they're holding onto them.

[FlamingZword]

We could examine their statistics. "4,459 churches (including daughter works and preaching points) and 9,413 ministers in 2013" comes directly from the UPCI official website. For years there have been many more licensed ministers than number of churches in the USA & Canada, even though there is always a push for establishing more churches.

Actually that is a good ratio
for you have the pastor and the assistant pastor just like in the New Testament was
Paul and Barnabas
Paul and Silas

That give us 2 ministers working together and a few extra to establish new works.

It is good to have a pastor and an assistant Pastor in a church because if one dies or leaves the ministry because of whatever reason the other can take quickly over.

[Originalist]

Actually that is a good ratio
for you have the pastor and the assistant pastor just like in the New Testament was
Paul and Barnabas
Paul and Silas

That give us 2 ministers working together and a few extra to establish new works.

It is good to have a pastor and an assistant Pastor in a church because if one dies or leaves the ministry because of whatever reason the other can take quickly over.

Or his backslid son can "pray through" and take over the family business while those faithful ministers who never backslid are left hanging.

[Reader]

Flaming, I disagree with the pastor comparison to Paul, Silas and Barnabas. They never stayed at one church and claimed to be pastor & assistant pastor. I would also disagree that many of those "extra" ministers are acting as assistant pastors. That certainly was not the case where I attended and at one point there were at least three ministers attending.

The ratio is even greater than what it first appears as they started counting preaching points (makes their numbers look better). A church I was in had a preaching point and more than 90% of the time, it was only a few members of our church attending.

In an organization that has been consistently pushing for new churches to be established, that is a poor ratio.

[FlamingZword]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

It depends on the pastor.
Few pastors know how to develop future leaders.

[votivesoul]

Forgive me if this comes across as bashing the UPC, I don't mean to. I've been in two districts where there were enough politics going on to make an episode of House of Cards.



According to the above statistic, there are 9,413 ministers in 4,459 churches. Could it be the reason more Pastors don't help other ministers under them to grow and succeed enough to branch out and start their own work is due to Pastors wanting to retain votes for district positions? I personally know a minister from another district who pushed to have young men in his church licensed so they could vote for him as a district superintendent. It worked, he's been elected and re-elected a few times now.

To me, that's a sad statistic. I know there are a few hundred nomad Evangelists in that number; however, it also means instead of Pastors sending out ministers to start other churches, they're holding onto them.

As if the New Covenant teachings of Yeshua and His Apostles actually make a distinction between ministers and constituents...

- ALL are lively stones
- ALL are priests unto God the Father
- ALL are servants of the Lord
- ALL are members of the same Body
- ALL are ministers with a calling

The day the church realizes that 100% participation by 100% of the Body 100% of the time is the only way to function, will be the day the world finds itself once again turned upside down.

[Jermyn Davidson]

As if the New Covenant teachings of Yeshua and His Apostles actually make a distinction between ministers and constituents...

- ALL are lively stones
- ALL are priests unto God the Father
- ALL are servants of the Lord
- ALL are members of the same Body
- ALL are ministers with a calling

The day the church realizes that 100% participation by 100% of the Body 100% of the time is the only way to function, will be the day the world finds itself once again turned upside down.

God is a God of order.
While we are all the things you have described, there God has ordained the use of offices and even servant positions that delineate the roles of some people versus the roles of others within the Body of Christ.

[FlamingZword]

Or his backslid son can "pray through" and take over the family business while those faithful ministers who never backslid are left hanging.

Nepotism is wrong, that is the reason I left one church.

There were more capable men in the church, but the son of the minister inherited the pulpit. when that happened I quit that church, I was not going to be a part of such shenanigans.

We do not have the Aaronic priesthood, the ministry is not hereditary.

If there is one thing (only one thing) I admire about the Catholic church is that since the priest are not allowed to marry, there is no nepotism in the Catholic church. (none of this; son inhering the ministry, or the wife being the treasurer of the church)

[FlamingZword]

Flaming, I disagree with the pastor comparison to Paul, Silas and Barnabas. They never stayed at one church and claimed to be pastor & assistant pastor. I would also disagree that many of those "extra" ministers are acting as assistant pastors. That certainly was not the case where I attended and at one point there were at least three ministers attending.

The ratio is even greater than what it first appears as they started counting preaching points (makes their numbers look better). A church I was in had a preaching point and more than 90% of the time, it was only a few members of our church attending.

In an organization that has been consistently pushing for new churches to be established, that is a poor ratio.

The pattern was set in the ministry of Moses who chose Joshua as his successor and then we have Elijah, who chose Elisha as his successor and the sad story of Gehazi who was to be the successor to Elisha but blew it.

[n david]

Nepotism is wrong, that is the reason I left one church.

There were more capable men in the church, but the son of the minister inherited the pulpit. when that happened I quit that church, I was not going to be a part of such shenanigans.

We do not have the Aaronic priesthood, the ministry is not hereditary.

If there is one thing (only one thing) I admire about the Catholic church is that since the priest are not allowed to marry, there is no nepotism in the Catholic church. (none of this; son inhering the ministry, or the wife being the treasurer of the church)
I left a church where the dad was the Sr Pastor and he and his wife were over the married couples group, their son in law was the Pastor and youth Pastor, the dad's sister in law was the treasurer and their daughter (Pastor/youth Pastor's wife) was a secretary

[votivesoul]

God is a God of order.
While we are all the things you have described, there God has ordained the use of offices and even servant positions that delineate the roles of some people versus the roles of others within the Body of Christ.

God does order things well:

Headship

1.) God
2.) Christ
3.) Every man
4.) Woman

(1 Corinthians 11:1-3)

Giftings

1.) Apostles
2.) Prophets
3.) Teachers
4.) Miracles
5.) Gifts of Healings
6.) Helps
7.) Governments
8.) Diversity of Tongues

(1 Corinthians 12:28)

Local Leadership

1.) Bishops
2.) Deacons
3.) Elders

(1 Timothy 3)

Now, just because there are clear delineations of all the above roles, it doesn't mean that there is a line demarcating clergy from laity, or any such thing.

All members of the Body of Christ worldwide should fit into the ministry according to their calling, election, and gifting.

Roles and ministries not in the Scripture

1.) Pew-warmer
2.) Passive observer
3.) Leech

If in any local assembly, there is a saint not doing anything to serve in the Kingdom of God and in the Body of Christ, then they are failing their calling and election.

And if in any local assembly, there are "ministers" who keep the Body from functioning properly by stymieing the growth and maturity of the saints by not letting them serve and develop their ministry because they want to maintain a clergy to laity distinction, then they are failing their calling and election, as well.

As for the original poster, Originalist:

You just keep on serving the Lord and following His voice as a faithful sheep. Anyone that get in the way of Christ's Sovereign Headship in your life needs to pray through and fear God again (or risk being considered a usurper of the Son of God [your head] by I AM Himself).

You just go right ahead and grow past all the petty nonsense. Leave the kindergartners to their immaturity.

[returnman]

Does anyone know of a single church in oneness circles that has deacons and elders that operate as they were intended?

[Originalist]

Does anyone know of a single church in oneness circles that has deacons and elders that operate as they were intended?

Even if they have them they just rubber stamp what the pastor wants.

At one time deacons were the checks and balances on the pastor in the AoG and CoG. But in recent years strong willed pastors find ways to bully obstructionist deacons off the board and have their personal puppets installed.

[votivesoul]

Does anyone know of a single church in oneness circles that has deacons and elders that operate as they were intended?

Yes. Check out www.gloriouschurch.com

[FlamingZword]

Even if they have them they just rubber stamp what the pastor wants.

At one time deacons were the checks and balances on the pastor in the AoG and CoG. But in recent years strong willed pastors find ways to bully obstructionist deacons off the board and have their personal puppets installed.

Unfortunately most churches board of directors are just a rubber stamp for the pastor's wish, because they tend to be hard core loyalists who will protect the pastor no matter which direction he goes.

very few board of directors have the power or the will to remove a pastor from the ministry. The few churches which have managed to get rid of a bad pastor often had to go thru a battle to succeed.

[Whoop Harted]

So what happened to him, did he jump ship out of the upci?

[Michael The Disciple]

Unfortunately most churches board of directors are just a rubber stamp for the pastor's wish, because they tend to be hard core loyalists who will protect the pastor no matter which direction he goes.

very few board of directors have the power or the will to remove a pastor from the ministry. The few churches which have managed to get rid of a bad pastor often had to go thru a battle to succeed.

A board of directors is pretty hard to find in the Bible.

[stony ground]

Originalist,

Have you looked into United Apostolic Churches? They are a small organization, but they are mostly former ALJC/UPC ministers who wanted to create a new Apostolic felllowship to foster growth in new & upcoming ministers. They may be the climate you're looking for. PM me if you want more info. :)

[FlamingZword]

A board of directors is pretty hard to find in the Bible.

They used to go by the name "elders of the church" :D

[Praxeas]

Why does the UPCI require dues? Ive been told the Orthodox Churches don't require dues

[Whoop Harted]

Why does the UPCI require dues? Ive been told the Orthodox Churches don't require dues

Silly duck, someone has to pay for those positions at the Vatican!!!

[Praxeas]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?
No. We encourage them.

[Praxeas]

Silly duck, someone has to pay for those positions at the Vatican!!!
So it's to pay for the paid positions only?

[Praxeas]

Silly duck, someone has to pay for those positions at the Vatican!!!
Don't call me duck....:heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

Why does the UPCI require dues? Ive been told the Orthodox Churches don't require dues

Great question! Paying dues? To be a Minister? How absurd.

[Reader]

Why does the UPCI require dues? Ive been told the Orthodox Churches don't require dues

To help pay for the organization's expenses I would assume. Ministers also receive the yearly Manual and Church Directory (digital form now, so much less expensive to produce than the old hard copies), subscriptions to the Pentecostal Herald & Forward, & a $10,000 life insurance policy.

Some may be unaware that in addition to the normal cost for each level of license that goes to headquarters, each district has their own fees as well and they vary.

[ILG]

Has anyone else gotten the sense that allot of these pastors actually try to stifle and stunt the growth of the ministers in their churches who serve underneath them, like clipping their wings?

Seen it before. Too true.

[Abiding Now]

I treasure the Sunday night that I walked into a UPC church and received the Holy Ghost. God bless the UPC for their efforts to win the lost to the only saving message of Acts 2:38. :happydance

[Praxeas]

To help pay for the organization's expenses I would assume. Ministers also receive the yearly Manual and Church Directory (digital form now, so much less expensive to produce than the old hard copies), subscriptions to the Pentecostal Herald & Forward, & a $10,000 life insurance policy.

Some may be unaware that in addition to the normal cost for each level of license that goes to headquarters, each district has their own fees as well and they vary.
That is absurd.

[Rudy]

I treasure the Sunday night that I walked into a UPC church and received the Holy Ghost. God bless the UPC for their efforts to win the lost to the only saving message of Acts 2:38. :happydance

There is some loving/decent people in that organization.

[Abiding Now]

There is some loving/decent people in that organization.

When I was invited to church no one mentioned UPC or organization. Just come to church and see what God can do for you. I went and Jesus filled me with his Spirit. :shockamoo

[Praxeas]

Any other thoughts on where the money goes?

[Abiding Now]

Any other thoughts on where the money goes?

Maintain the district camp ground and office? Pay salary for office help? Pay DS salary? Just guessing.

[Jason B]

To help pay for the organization's expenses I would assume. Ministers also receive the yearly Manual and Church Directory (digital form now, so much less expensive to produce than the old hard copies), subscriptions to the Pentecostal Herald & Forward, & a $10,000 life insurance policy.

Some may be unaware that in addition to the normal cost for each level of license that goes to headquarters, each district has their own fees as well and they vary.

I've got a $275k life insurance policy that costs $32/month. $10k is nothing for life insurance.

The mag subscription isn't worth more than $25/year.

And the directory is online. Google is free.

They should offer health insurance for the dues. Training/continued education programs, free conferences. Instead its like a business, ain't nuthin' free here.*

*Depending on your last name

[Originalist]

The time has come and gone and I have not paid my dues. I have a car insurance and electric bill payment to make. The insurance is two weeks late and about to be canceled. I simply do not see any alternative but to pay for these necessities first.

[Sean]

Well, you may lose your license with man, but you still have a license that was paid in full 2000 years ago to preach!

[Michael The Disciple]

Well, you may lose your license with man, but you still have a license that was paid in full 2000 years ago to preach!

Amen.

[BrotherEastman]

We still love you O!!!!!!

[BrotherEastman]

I don't know why you just don't pay your dues out of your tithes. I do. Just a thought.

[Abiding Now]

So sad to see another brother leave the mother ship.

[Jason B]

I don't know why you just don't pay your dues out of your tithes. I do. Just a thought.

So now all of a sudden you get to decide what part of your giving counts as tithes?

I thought tithes could only go to the local church?

But then again since y'all have no Bible for that doctrine I suppose just make it up as you go. :thumbsup

[Jason B]

So sad to see another brother leave the mother ship.

Spare me. Whether he should or shouldn't leave is his choice, but what's sad is you bemoan the brother leaving the UPC because of dues but could apparently care less whatever struggles the brother has.

Its just another person off your team. Why are you so sad? Do you think the brother lost His salvation because he couldn't renew? No hope outside of the UPC? I am always arguing against people who say the UPC is a cult, but there are undoubtedly cult elements, and many people whose mindset reminds me of JWs and the way they view their org. Abiding Now is Exhibit A.

[Abiding Now]

Spare me. Whether he should or shouldn't leave is his choice, but what's sad is you bemoan the brother leaving the UPC because of dues but could apparently care less whatever struggles the brother has.

Its just another person off your team. Why are you so sad? Do you think the brother lost His salvation because he couldn't renew? No hope outside of the UPC? I am always arguing against people who say the UPC is a cult, but there are undoubtedly cult elements, and many people whose mindset reminds me of JWs and the way they view their org. Abiding Now is Exhibit A.

My fear is that as my friend begins his journey outside that he will fall unto the slippery slope and become like you and please, I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way.

[Jason B]

My fear is that as my friend begins his journey outside that he will fall unto the slippery slope and become like you and please, I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way.

Thanks bro. You don't even know me. I'm not saying anyone should be "like me", but just calling nonsense on this whole philosophy that everything outside of the UPC is just a huge black hole waiting to engulf people.

Christ is bigger than the UPC and many who leave have found this to be true.

Your mind is in shackled to the UPC through fear.

[Abiding Now]

Thanks bro. You don't even know me. I'm not saying anyone should be "like me", but just calling nonsense on this whole philosophy that everything outside of the UPC is just a huge black hole waiting to engulf people.

Christ is bigger than the UPC and many who leave have found this to be true.

Your mind is in shackled to the UPC through fear.

Right, I don't "know you, but you have expressed your distain for the UPC and the Pentecostal doctrines. As for being "shackled", the UPC church where I received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues actually set me free. :happydanc

[jfrog]

My fear is that as my friend begins his journey outside that he will fall unto the slippery slope and become like you and please, I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way.

What if the UPC is the slippery slope that has lead your friend to looking outside where he will find another slippery slope...?

[Originalist]

My fear is that as my friend begins his journey outside that he will fall unto the slippery slope and become like you and please, I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way.


Please remember that I was a licensed AoG minister for many years before going to the UPCI. I could never go back to the AoG.

[Abiding Now]

Please remember that I was a licensed AoG minister for many years before going to the UPCI. I could never go back to the AoG.

Good. Praying for you.

[BrotherEastman]

Well, you may lose your license with man, but you still have a license that was paid in full 2000 years ago to preach!

True enough!!!!!!

[BrotherEastman]

So now all of a sudden you get to decide what part of your giving counts as tithes?

I thought tithes could only go to the local church?

But then again since y'all have no Bible for that doctrine I suppose just make it up as you go. :thumbsup

You obviously do not now what I believe or teach; However, since you brought it up I have never condemned anyone to hell for not paying a tithe. I give by my own free will because 10% is the least I can do for God whom I love. To say that tithe was ever taught in the New Testament would be an error on my part.

Since I'm not paid as a local license minister I am allowed to (by my Pastor's agreement) to pay my dues out of my tithe. I apologize if you have a problem with that, but what I do with my money is between me and God and you are not involved with that decision period!!!!!

[BrotherEastman]

Spare me. Whether he should or shouldn't leave is his choice, but what's sad is you bemoan the brother leaving the UPC because of dues but could apparently care less whatever struggles the brother has.

Its just another person off your team. Why are you so sad? Do you think the brother lost His salvation because he couldn't renew? No hope outside of the UPC? I am always arguing against people who say the UPC is a cult, but there are undoubtedly cult elements, and many people whose mindset reminds me of JWs and the way they view their org. Abiding Now is Exhibit A.

Just because he could not afford to pay his dues does not mean he is off the team. You seem to have an attitude towards the UPC. The UPC is not the ONLY true church the UPC is a group of ministers, not a church.

[BrotherEastman]

My fear is that as my friend begins his journey outside that he will fall unto the slippery slope and become like you and please, I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way.

I do not fear the O will lose his salvation, lol. Are you a licensed minister (not that it is important, just curious)?

[BrotherEastman]

What if the UPC is the slippery slope that has lead your friend to looking outside where he will find another slippery slope...?

blah, blah, blah...........:throwrock

[Timmy]

Lol

[shazeep]

What if the UPC is the slippery slope that has lead your friend to looking outside where he will find another slippery slope...?

:lol truly, one finds what they seek

[Reader]

The UPC is not the ONLY true church the UPC is a group of ministers, not a church.

I so tire of hearing people, especially licensed UPC ministers stating they are only a group of ministers. Everyone who gets license through them is supposed to read their manual. They sign a paper stating they have. In the beginning of it, where the general constitution starts, it very clearly states the following (bold is my emphasis).

Membership in the United Pentecostal Church International shall consist of all ministers and missionaries holding an accredited credential or license, and all members of local assemblies which are affiliated with us, and shall be called “Organization.”

It has stated this since at least the early 1950s. If a UPC church is an affiliated one, every member of that church is considered a member of the UPC, no matter how long and hard their ministers yell otherwise.

My apologies for the rant and I know the one I quoted was not yelling this.

[BrotherEastman]

I so tire of hearing people, especially licensed UPC ministers stating they are only a group of ministers. Everyone who gets license through them is supposed to read their manual. They sign a paper stating they have. In the beginning of it, where the general constitution starts, it very clearly states the following (bold is my emphasis).



It has stated this since at least the early 1950s. If a UPC church is an affiliated one, every member of that church is considered a member of the UPC, no matter how long and hard their ministers yell otherwise.

My apologies for the rant and I know the one I quoted was not yelling this.

My apologies, you are correct. I was wrong stating otherwise. You should know however, that if the Minister leaves the UPC, the members are no longer UPC unless they go and find an affiliate church. I should have been more clear, please accept my apology. God bless you.

[Jason B]

Right, I don't "know you, but you have expressed your distain for the UPC and the Pentecostal doctrines. As for being "shackled", the UPC church where I received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues actually set me free. :happydanc

Disdain? Criticism is different from disdain.

Your last statement makes my point.

You give the UPC credit for "actually" setting you free. No wonder you panic for someone when they leave and fret about ex-UPCers.

[Jason B]

You obviously do not now what I believe or teach; However, since you brought it up I have never condemned anyone to hell for not paying a tithe. I give by my own free will because 10% is the least I can do for God whom I love. To say that tithe was ever taught in the New Testament would be an error on my part.

Since I'm not paid as a local license minister I am allowed to (by my Pastor's agreement) to pay my dues out of my tithe. I apologize if you have a problem with that, but what I do with my money is between me and God and you are not involved with that decision period!!!!!

OK.

Since you say "to say that the tithe was EVER taught in the NT would be an error on my part" makes me wonder why even "pay tithes"? Just to please man?

Why not just freewill giving?

[Reader]

My apologies, you are correct. I was wrong stating otherwise. You should know however, that if the Minister leaves the UPC, the members are no longer UPC unless they go and find an affiliate church.

An affiliated church must have a UPC licensed pastor. Therefore, if an affiliated church has a minister who leaves the UPC, the church is still affiliated and thus members are still members of the UPCI. The District Board would see to it that another licensed UPC minister took their place.

The church would have to first disaffiliate, and then the pastor drops his license, for the members to no longer be considered UPCI members. That is a process in itself.

[BrotherEastman]

An affiliated church must have a UPC licensed pastor. Therefore, if an affiliated church has a minister who leaves the UPC, the church is still affiliated and thus members are still members of the UPCI. The District Board would see to it that another licensed UPC minister took their place.

The church would have to first disaffiliate, and then the pastor drops his license, for the members to no longer be considered UPCI members. That is a process in itself.

Good point, but not all churches with a UPC pastor are affiliated; However I stand corrected once again.

[BrotherEastman]

OK.

Since you say "to say that the tithe was EVER taught in the NT would be an error on my part" makes me wonder why even "pay tithes"? Just to please man?

Why not just freewill giving?

That's what it is......my tithes are freewill giving. I know I don't have to do it, but I do it because it is the least I can do for God. Why would I be better than the Old Testament saints in giving less?

[Jason B]

That's what it is......my tithes are freewill giving. I know I don't have to do it, but I do it because it is the least I can do for God. Why would I be better than the Old Testament saints in giving less?

Unless you're giving more than 23% then you are not giving more than the "OT saints".

Then again if you think everyone in the OT gave 10% that's something to revisit also. Those who made their living off agriculture "tithed" (never 'paid tithes') while those who had other professions did not (such as carpenters and fisherman).

Why would you compare what you do to the old testament saints? A misunderstanding of Matthew 5:20?

[Abiding Now]

Disdain? Criticism is different from disdain.

Your last statement makes my point.

You give the UPC credit for "actually" setting you free. No wonder you panic for someone when they leave and fret about ex-UPCers.

Oh yeah it's distain. Once again I thank God that I walked in a UPC church and received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues and was baptized in Jesus name for the remission of my sins, because I could have walked into a church where your kind was preaching. BTW I do fret about ex-UPCers, don't want to see any backslider be lost.

[Jason B]

Oh yeah it's distain. Once again I thank God that I walked in a UPC church and received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues and was baptized in Jesus name for the remission of my sins, because I could have walked into a church where your kind was preaching. BTW I do fret about ex-UPCers, don't want to see any backslider be lost.

So God never saves anyone outside of a UPC church?

[Abiding Now]

So God never saves anyone outside of a UPC church?

I didn't say that, but God never saves anyone since the day of Pentecost outside of Acts 2:38.

[houston]

I didn't say that, but God never saves anyone since the day of Pentecost outside of Acts 2:38. found nowhere in the epistles

[shazeep]

Amen.

[Rudy]

$50.00 a month -- tithes -- offerings -- building fund -- Quite a burden when raising a family.

[shazeep]

I didn't say that, but God never saves anyone since the day of Pentecost outside of Acts 2:38.

A great model to adhere to on a personal level tho!

[Abiding Now]

found nowhere in the epistles

Of course the epistles were written by men who had already obeyed Acts 2:38, to churches that had already obeyed Acts 2:38. :happydance

[houston]

Of course the epistles were written by men who had already obeyed Acts 2:38, to churches that had already obeyed Acts 2:38. :happydance so much written about salvation in the epistles. Nothing resembling acts 238...

[BrotherEastman]

Unless you're giving more than 23% then you are not giving more than the "OT saints".

Then again if you think everyone in the OT gave 10% that's something to revisit also. Those who made their living off agriculture "tithed" (never 'paid tithes') while those who had other professions did not (such as carpenters and fisherman).

Why would you compare what you do to the old testament saints? A misunderstanding of Matthew 5:20?

So, are you saying that all OT saints gave 23%, I need proof. This ought to be good. BTW why are you judging me?

[shazeep]

Hmm...I think that is because we tend to adhere to such rigid, mutually exclusive definitions, as humans. Acts 2:38, sans the addendum, of course, can be restated to agree with the other Scriptural methods of salvation, imo.

[shazeep]

so much written about salvation in the epistles. Nothing resembling acts 238...

Reply above.

[Abiding Now]

So, are you saying that all OT saints gave 23%, I need proof. This ought to be good. BTW why are you judging me?

Because that's his job. :heeheehee


J/K

[Rudy]

So, are you saying that all OT saints gave 23%, I need proof. This ought to be good. BTW why are you judging me?

I think he is referring to those who tithed under the Mosaic Law. All were not required to tithe.

[BrotherEastman]

I think he is referring to those who tithed under the Mosaic Law. All were not required to tithe.

Rudy, thank you for clearing that up. As a minister I do not teach tithing and neither do I see it as a salvational issue. I practice giving AT LEAST 10% because of a personal principle.

[Rudy]

Indiana here too.

[Originalist]

found nowhere in the epistles


The epistles only explain what happened in Acts. You seem to imply what is in the epistles somehow contradicts the Acts 2:38 message. Can you cite anything in the epistles that contradicts the Acts 2:38 new birth message and actually teaches the one step formula.

[Jason B]

The epistles only explain what happened in Acts. You seem to imply what is in the epistles somehow contradicts the Acts 2:38 message. Can you cite anything in the epistles that contradicts the Acts 2:38 new birth message and actually teaches the one step formula.

There's no contradiction. The problem arises when the initial evidence doctrine is forced into the text. Then everything seems contradictory because tongues was never the normative universal experience of all believers. That's the rub.

[Abiding Now]

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

[Jason B]

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Using that passage if tongues is a requirement of salvation for every believer, then they must also personally cast out devils and heal the sick. To say nothing of taking up serpents and drinking deadly poison. The Snake Handlers are oneness and more apostolic than all you UPCers in that case. Beyond that this is classic picking and choosing. Take verse 17, make it universal, ignore verse 18. Or rather take verse 17 and take it literal, and verse 18 as symbolic. Really verse 17 and 18 apply to the church as a body, corporately, these are the signs that will be present in/amongst the church. They are not for each believer. Again, if they are then add to your laundry list of salvation requirements healing the sick and casting out at least one devil.

[Abiding Now]

Using that passage if tongues is a requirement of salvation for every believer, then they must also personally cast out devils and heal the sick. To say nothing of taking up serpents and drinking deadly poison. The Snake Handlers are oneness and more apostolic than all you UPCers in that case. Beyond that this is classic picking and choosing. Take verse 17, make it universal, ignore verse 18. Or rather take verse 17 and take it literal, and verse 18 as symbolic. Really verse 17 and 18 apply to the church as a body, corporately, these are the signs that will be present in/amongst the church. They are not for each believer. :laffatu Again, if they are then add to your laundry list of salvation requirements healing the sick and casting out at least one devil.

WHO said tongues were "a requirement for salvation"?

[shazeep]

No one seems to understand what I'm saying much of the time-might this be interpreted as 'speaking in tongues?' :D

[Timmy]

No one seems to understand what I'm saying much of the time-might this be interpreted as 'speaking in tongues?' :D

Roughly equivalent, yep. :lol

[shazeep]

:lol

[Jason B]

WHO said tongues were "a requirement for salvation"?



Phrase it how you want, that's what you believe.

[Abiding Now]

Phrase it how you want, that's what you believe.

You're so predictable with your easy believism. :heeheehee I'm not sure that you know what you believe much less what I believe. Jesus says, "these signs shall follow them that believe" and Jason says "no, Jesus is wrong, they are not for each believer". Now really how goofy is that. :laffatu

[Jason B]

You're so predictable with your easy believism. :heeheehee I'm not sure that you know what you believe much less what I believe. Jesus says, "these signs shall follow them that believe" and Jason says "no, Jesus is wrong, they are not for each believer". Now really how goofy is that. :laffatu

I hope you exercise better reading comprehension when you study scripture than when you read my posts. I think they all go right over your head. Or to you just believe whatever your pastor tells you to believe.

Now if you believe that every believer will speak in tongues then do you also believe that every believer will cast out devils, heal the sick, take up serpents, and drink deadly poison?

If yes, explain why.
If no, explain why.
After all "Jesus said it".

Please provide an actual answer. But Ive got a feeling all you can do is post a smiley to cover up your lack of ability to post a thoughtful response. We shall see.

[shazeep]

Yikes, that escalated quickly, huh? :lol

[Timmy]

You're so predictable with your easy believism. :heeheehee I'm not sure that you know what you believe much less what I believe. Jesus says, "these signs shall follow them that believe" and Jason says "no, Jesus is wrong, they are not for each believer". Now really how goofy is that. :laffatu

Is Jesus wrong about taking up serpents and drinking deadly poison?

[Abiding Now]

Is Jesus wrong about taking up serpents and drinking deadly poison?

No.

[Timmy]

No.

So you drink poison and take up serpents?

[BrotherEastman]

So you drink poison and take up serpents?

The bible says IF they drink any deadly thing; key word here is IF.:throwrock And why should he pick up a serpent; it isn't a command silly.

[shazeep]

But, taking up his point-that we do not widely witness believers doing these things-it should be considered that maybe the literal picture this provides us is just not how it really works; people's abilities in those areas vary, according to their confidence, or faith; and often go unremarked because it is just 'normal' to that person. We envision it as some freaky, miraculous occurrence, when it actually plays out in the mundane, save for possibly a witness or two.

[Timmy]

The bible says IF they drink any deadly thing; key word here is IF.:throwrock And why should he pick up a serpent; it isn't a command silly.

Didn't say it was a command. Not the point. The question needs to be answered, by AN. ;)

[Abiding Now]

So you drink poison and take up serpents?

Not yet. :heeheehee
Your turn.
Do you lay hands on the sick? Speak in tongues? Cast out Devils.

[Timmy]

Not yet. :heeheehee
And you're a believer?!

Your turn.
Do you lay hands on the sick? Speak in tongues? Cast out Devils.

Lol. No. Why would I do that?

[Esaias]

I hope you exercise better reading comprehension when you study scripture than when you read my posts. I think they all go right over your head. Or to you just believe whatever your pastor tells you to believe.

Now if you believe that every believer will speak in tongues then do you also believe that every believer will cast out devils, heal the sick, take up serpents, and drink deadly poison?

If yes, explain why.
If no, explain why.
After all "Jesus said it".

Please provide an actual answer. But Ive got a feeling all you can do is post a smiley to cover up your lack of ability to post a thoughtful response. We shall see.

Do those signs follow believers now? Do ALL of them? Some? None?

[BrotherEastman]

Not yet. :heeheehee
Your turn.
Do you lay hands on the sick? Speak in tongues? Cast out Devils.

Don't worry about him, he's an atheist.

[BrotherEastman]

And you're a believer?!


Lol. No. Why would I do that?

Yeah, he's a believer!!!! What's your point?????

[shazeep]

:lol but that is not an answer, even if it is true. Perhaps he has just rejected your definition of God, as we seem to naturally accept that casting out demons = exorcism, when it may just be a kind word, etc.

[Jason B]

Don't worry about him, he's an atheist.

Said in Christian love, of course.


Timmy and I have strong disagreements. I believe as an atheist he ought to repent and trust the Savior.

However he is respectful and shouldn't just be blown off. Even if there is an element of sarcasm in his posts he asks legitimate questions.

And above all else our Lord loves him and therefore so should we. Not be so dismissive of him.

[shazeep]

Thus revealing your premises...touché'

[Jason B]

I hope you exercise better reading comprehension when you study scripture than when you read my posts. I think they all go right over your head. Or to you just believe whatever your pastor tells you to believe.

Now if you believe that every believer will speak in tongues then do you also believe that every believer will cast out devils, heal the sick, take up serpents, and drink deadly poison?

If yes, explain why.
If no, explain why.
After all "Jesus said it".

Please provide an actual answer. But Ive got a feeling all you can do is post a smiley to cover up your lack of ability to post a thoughtful response. We shall see.

Still waiting Abiding Now. Bro Eastman feel free to answer also.

[BrotherEastman]

Said in Christian love, of course.


Timmy and I have strong disagreements. I believe as an atheist he ought to repent and trust the Savior.

However he is respectful and shouldn't just be blown off. Even if there is an element of sarcasm in his posts he asks legitimate questions.

And above all else our Lord loves him and therefore so should we. Not be so dismissive of him.

Timmy knows I love him, I even told him so in Timmy Talk, you should look it up since once again you are judging me. BTW Timmy is on my friends list. I know he is amiable and asks legitimate questions, but I also know him well enough that he scoffs at the ones who have faith.

[BrotherEastman]

Still waiting Abiding Now. Bro Eastman feel free to answer also.

I already answered:thumbsup

[Aquila]

I have 8 days left to send in my dues to the Vatican in Hazlewood, Mo. or I lose my credentials.

To pay or not to pay. That is the question.

Being totally honest with myself, I do not see how having them has helped me or enhanced my ministry in the slightest. I can live without a free minister's meal after nightly camp meeting services. In fact I can live without camp meeting all together. Nothing will change in my life by giving them up except I'll have 50 dollars more a month to put in my gas tank instead of having to borrow from family members while seeking gainful employment. Since most churches are family owned businesses I'm not going to be referred to a church as pastor. I'll have to start my own church if I want to pastor. The only country that I felt any leading to go to as a missionary has been abandoned by the organization.

If I sell my property and move to a different State, the last thing I'm going to do is seek out a pastor to chain myself to and surrender all of my individuality and decision making to.

T-minus eight days and counting.

Tick tock tick tock

:)

[Jason B]

I already answered:thumbsup

Where?

[Jason B]

Do those signs follow believers now? Do ALL of them? Some? None?

Yes, why wouldn't they? However I challenge the idea that everyone of them is normative for every believer.

I believe Mark 16:17-18 describes the signs that will follow the church (corporately), I don't see every single believer doing each one of those things as some sort of checklist. It seems a summary statement of God's activity in/amongst His people. Not a list or requirements to prove you are a true believer.

[Timmy]

Yeah, he's a believer!!!! What's your point?????

AN points to the "signs following" as proof that all Christians will speak in tongues, and yet he doesn't think all Christians pick up snakes or drink poison. For serpents, the same wording is used as for tongues: "they shall". For poison, as you pointed out, it's "if". But please tell me if this is a true statement for you, personally:

If you drink poison, it will not harm you.

True or false?

AN, you should also answer this question, if you don't mind.

[BrotherEastman]

Where?

Post 123 speaks volumes on my behalf, besides I don't find it profitable to tempt God, just look at the followers of Jim Jones in Guyana.

[Timmy]

Post 123 speaks volumes on my behalf, besides I don't find it profitable to tempt God, just look at the followers of Jim Jones in Guyana.
Post 123 doesn't answer this question:

AN points to the "signs following" as proof that all Christians will speak in tongues, and yet he doesn't think all Christians pick up snakes or drink poison. For serpents, the same wording is used as for tongues: "they shall". For poison, as you pointed out, it's "if". But please tell me if this is a true statement for you, personally:

If you drink poison, it will not harm you.

True or false?

AN, you should also answer this question, if you don't mind.

And this has nothing to do with tempting God. It's a simple statement that has a simple answer. Think of accidentally ingesting poison, if you like.

[shazeep]

:lol ya, like the ersatz food in grocery stores...

[Timmy]

:lol ya, like the ersatz food in grocery stores...

Well, yeah, but that's really sloooooow "poison". ;) Let's talk about strychnine. A high concentration.

[shazeep]

Ha ok, but if the wanderings in the Sinai are to be taken as a type for a believer's walk, it seems unfair to expect miracles out of season...and again, we natch look for big, splashy shows there, when it could be viewed that our collective tolerance for fluoride is a miracle...

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
<<Is Jesus wrong about taking up serpents and drinking deadly poison?>>



No.


Does this necessarily mean there should be no documentable cases of Christians dying accidentally from a snake bite? (Accidentally defined as, "Just minding their own business, but got bitten, and died.")

If it could be documented that an innocent Christian did die from snakebite, how would you defend truth of Jesus words?

Do you like any of the following?
(My own ad hoc guesses.)
1. Jesus was speaking metaphorically, not literal snakes nor literal poison.
2. "The victim must not have been a REAL Christian, because Jesus can't lie."
3. "Since no Christian walking with god really ever dies, they only went to a better place, therefore the snake didn't REALLY "hurt them," so Jesus still didn't lie.

Others?
:icecream

[BrotherEastman]

AN points to the "signs following" as proof that all Christians will speak in tongues, and yet he doesn't think all Christians pick up snakes or drink poison. For serpents, the same wording is used as for tongues: "they shall". For poison, as you pointed out, it's "if". But please tell me if this is a true statement for you, personally:

If you drink poison, it will not harm you.

True or false?

AN, you should also answer this question, if you don't mind.

According to scripture it will not harm you. I believe the passage, but I do not do so in order to TEMPT God. Why? What is the scoff this time?????