Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[Aquila]

It is written...

Revelation 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The nature of the false prophet. He presents himself as a lamb, a man of peace... but he speaks like a dragon. His words are a destructive web of lies.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).



Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.



Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."



Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."



Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.



From Islamic Law:



Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...



"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.

(Source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)

[FlamingZword]

It is written...

Revelation 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The nature of the false prophet. He presents himself as a lamb, a man of peace... but he speaks like a dragon. His words are a destructive web of lies.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).



Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.



Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."



Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."



Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.



From Islamic Law:



Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...



"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.

(Source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)


Sound like the catholic doctrine of the merciful lie.
that one can lie as long as something good comes from that lie.
that is why you can not trust anything that Catholics say, for they are permitted to lie.

[Walks_in_islam]

You say it is a religion of lies.

Point them out.

After you are done, we will start discussing "lies of the UPC". This should be fun.

[Pliny]

Lets not forget the "Al-Khansa brigade" and how "peaceful" this evil is.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/20/brutal-female-police-enforce-isis-sharia-vision-on-women-caliphate/?intcmp=obnetwork

[Timmy]

How can you tell, in general, if a religion is lying?

[ILG]

If a person is towards God, they can practice any religion as peaceful and true. If a person is turned away from God the same is true.

Acts 10:34,35

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[DaveC519]

If a person is towards God, they can practice any religion as peaceful and true. If a person is turned away from God the same is true.

Acts 10:34,35

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Certainly, as long as they accept that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and they become born again of water and the Spirit just like Cornelius and his household did in this same passage! ;)

[BrotherEastman]

You say it is a religion of lies.

Point them out.

After you are done, we will start discussing "lies of the UPC". This should be fun.

LOL Aquila IS NOT UPC. :laffatu BTW tit for tat will not get you out of the fact that Islam is a religion of lies.

[Pressing-On]

Certainly, as long as they accept that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and they become born again of water and the Spirit just like Cornelius and his household did in this same passage! ;)

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness — This being the well-known phraseology of the Old Testament in describing the truly godly man, within the pale of revealed religion, it cannot be alleged that Peter meant it to denote a merely virtuous character, in the heathen sense; and as Peter had learned enough, from the messengers of Cornelius and from his own lips, to convince him that the whole religious character of this Roman officer had been molded in the Jewish faith, there can be no doubt that the apostle intended to describe exactly such saintship - in its internal spirituality and external fruitfulness - as God had already pronounced to be genuine and approved. And since to such “He giveth more grace,” according to the law of His Kingdom (Jam_4:6; Mat_25:29), He sends Peter, not to be the instrument of his conversion, as this is very frequently called, but simply to “show him the way of God more perfectly,” as before to the devout Ethiopian eunuch. - JFB

[Praxeas]

You say it is a religion of lies.

Point them out.

After you are done, we will start discussing "lies of the UPC". This should be fun.
Aquila is not UPC that I am aware of, so you'd be beating at the wind

[Abiding Now]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8EOL1-4S6c

Pastor of FBC Dallas ain't skeeredof jihad.

[mfblume]

Islam encourages beating one's wife if she gets out of line, and slaying those who refuse to accept Islam. It is in the Koran. I will get the quotes.

[Timmy]

Islam encourages beating one's wife if she gets out of line, and slaying those who refuse to accept Islam. It is in the Koran. I will get the quotes.

Are those bad things?

[MarcBee]

Islam encourages beating one's wife if she gets out of line, and slaying those who refuse to accept Islam. It is in the Koran. I will get the quotes.


Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

[BrotherEastman]

Are those bad things?

Are they good things?

[BrotherEastman]

Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

you might as well become Muslim

[Timmy]

Are they good things?

Not in my opinion. What about you?

[Pliny]

Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

Can you give a reference where the stoning of a child took place or the year?
Could you provide the documentation where nations were slayed simply because they rejected the "Yaweh thing"? Also, please provide the last time these things happened.

I would prefer to have a relevant conversation that is at least within this millenium and preferably this century.

Thank you.

[BrotherEastman]

Not in my opinion. What about you?

then why ask?

[Timmy]

then why ask?

:blink

[mfblume]

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

[Praxeas]

I don't care much for Bill Mahor but he actually has a pretty good arguments on Islam

[Aquila]

Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

I'm talking about the sanctioning of outright lying. Yes, God did give ancient Israel stringent laws that included the death penalty. However, the God of the Bible has established various covenants. In Islam, God is very much still back on the bronze age with His approach to man.

[Aquila]

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

Deplorable.

However, even in Christian countries a father used to be able to discipline both his wife and his children should they be absolutely disobedient.

[ILG]

Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

I don't care much for Bill Mahor but he actually has a pretty good arguments on Islam

I've heard some of his thoughts. While I don't agree with him on most things, I do find myself agreeing with many of his thoughts regarding Islam.

[ILG]

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

That's disgusting.

[Pressing-On]

Yahweh encourages stoning one's son if he gets disobedient, and at times slaying other nations who don't accept the Yahweh thing. It is the bible. I will get the quotes.

In context, Deut 21:20 shows that the “boy” was a “grown man” who was stubborn, rebellious, will not obey his parents, who is a glutton and a drunkard.

The Law required that “both” parents be in agreement, bringing the child to the elders of the city. The elders judge the matter according to the Law of Moses, i.e., Exodus 20:12; Exo. 21:15, Exo. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.

This isn’t much different than a policeman apprehending a suspect, bringing him to the courts for judgment and sentencing. Apparently, this “grown man” was a nuisance to society.

Today, we have the media and families calling a “thug” a gentle giant and vocally crying out against the policeman who put him down because he was a nuisance and danger to society, i.e. Ferguson, MO.

And who were these heathen nations that Israel fought against in order to survive as a nation?

They were nations who were killing children in human/child sacrifice, who were forcing young men and women into perverted sexual rituals to worship false gods who were” made of silver and gold, made by human hands, mouths that cannot speak, eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, no breath in their mouths. And those that make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 135:15-18

[mfblume]

In context, Deut 21:20 shows that the “boy” was a “grown man” who was stubborn, rebellious, will not obey his parents, who is a glutton and a drunkard.

The Law required that “both” parents be in agreement, bringing the child to the elders of the city. The elders judge the matter according to the Law of Moses, i.e., Exodus 20:12; Exo. 21:15, Exo. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.

This isn’t much different than a policeman apprehending a suspect, bringing him to the courts for judgment and sentencing. Apparently, this “grown man” was a nuisance to society.

Today, we have the media and families calling a “thug” a gentle giant and vocally crying out against the policeman who put him down because he was a nuisance and danger to society, i.e. Ferguson, MO.

And who were these heathen nations that Israel fought against in order to survive as a nation?

They were nations who were killing children in human/child sacrifice, who were forcing young men and women into perverted sexual rituals to worship false gods who were” made of silver and gold, made by human hands, mouths that cannot speak, eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, no breath in their mouths. And those that make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 135:15-18


Right on, sister!

That ruse Marcbee used is like the punchline saying the Bible condones slavery. In actuality, the Bible was speaking of the nations of Canaan that Israel invaded who were sacrificing their children to idols in the fire, and that sort of ilk, and the survivors of the massacre that was well deserving to those human sacrificing animals was imprisonment amongst Israel in the form of slavery. It was not slavery like the filth-spewing world is trying to imply when they quote these biblical passages. It was more imprisonament in a day when they had no such prisons as we do.

[Pressing-On]

Right on, sister!

That ruse Marcbee used is like the punchline saying the Bible condones slavery. In actuality, the Bible was speaking of the nations of Canaan that Israel invaded who were sacrificing their children to idols in the fire, and that sort of ilk, and the survivors of the massacre that was well deserving to those human sacrificing animals was imprisonment amongst Israel in the form of slavery. It was not slavery like the filth-spewing world is trying to imply when they quote these biblical passages. It was more imprisonament in a day when they had no such prisons as we do.

Exactly! We must study further when reading a passage. God has a purpose and doesn't contradict His own Word.


Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

[mfblume]

Exactly! We must study further when reading a passage. God has a purpose and doesn't contradict His own Word.


Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

Critics are afraid to listen to responses and to read the entire overall issue in the overall bible.

[Pressing-On]

Critics are afraid to listen to responses and to read the entire overall issue in the overall bible.

:thumbsup

I believe some critics are afraid, but there are also those who are so vehemently in opposition that they will leave off good common sense, skipping the obvious context in order to try and win an argument to support their claims.

[ILG]

But progressive, moderate Muslims would explain some of their own scriptures in the same way and say they were not meant to be taken literally. The point is both Christianity and Islam can be practiced in an extreme fashion with killing and the whole deal or more moderately, with love and peace. The person who is doing the practicing will determine if they are going to use those verses to literally beat their wives or if they meant something in some specific context not meant for today or whatever. I suspect if we had a moderate Muslim amongst us, they would suggest that is not to be taken literally just as many biblical verses are not taken literally.

[Timmy]

It's always possible the make the Bible sound all nicey-nice. Except for Numbers 31. Not much you can do, there. ;)

(Kidding, of course. Even Numbers 31 can be "interpreted" beyond recognition. Might even make it into Sunday School lessons.)

[mfblume]

It's always possible the make the Bible sound all nicey-nice. Except for Numbers 31. Not much you can do, there. ;)

(Kidding, of course. Even Numbers 31 can be "interpreted" beyond recognition. Might even make it into Sunday School lessons.)

Oh! It's nicey-nice Timmy again!

The Midianites took Israel's daughters and enticed them to commit uncleanness with them, and then drew them into the worship of their idols, which brought the wrath of God upon them. Hello?

[Pliny]

But progressive, moderate Muslims would explain some of their own scriptures in the same way and say they were not meant to be taken literally. The point is both Christianity and Islam can be practiced in an extreme fashion with killing and the whole deal or more moderately, with love and peace. The person who is doing the practicing will determine if they are going to use those verses to literally beat their wives or if they meant something in some specific context not meant for today or whatever. I suspect if we had a moderate Muslim amongst us, they would suggest that is not to be taken literally just as many biblical verses are not taken literally.

No such thing as a moderate Muslim IMO.

Islam is NOT Christianity hence the fallacy of your logic and the FACT that thousands upon thousands of Muslims are murdering people, enslaving women and crucifying children TODAY.

[mfblume]

No such thing as a moderate Muslim IMO.

Islam is NOT Christianity hence the fallacy of your logic and the FACT that thousands upon thousands of Muslims are murdering people, enslaving women and crucifying children TODAY.

Yes, notice the diverting intention of the critics to change the reality of the point we make.

[Timmy]

Oh! It's nicey-nice Timmy again!

The Midianites took Israel's daughters and enticed them to commit uncleanness with them, and then drew them into the worship of their idols, which brought the wrath of God upon them. Hello?

Told ya. :heeheehee

[Timmy]

How can you tell, in general, if a religion is lying?

Anyone? Mike, I know you can answer this! :lol

[Pliny]

Yes, notice the diverting intention of the critics to change the reality of the point we make.

Yes, typical straw man arguments. Muslim's usually talk about other people's bad behavior to justify their own.

[mfblume]

Told ya. :heeheehee

You disagree with God's decision? God was unrighteous? Please inform us. It's okay to let Midianites take your women and lead them into idolatry?

[mfblume]

Anyone? Mike, I know you can answer this! :lol

Tim, you know better than God. You tell us! You're omniscient and know you cannot have missed something if God chose not to heal -- you know why. So, tell us, oh Tim!

[Timmy]

You disagree with God's decision? God was unrighteous? Please inform us. It's okay to let Midianites take your women and lead them into idolatry?

It's OK to kill babies, as punishment for what some of their parents did? To take the virgin women and girls as spoils of war? Well, sure. If God told you to. You would too, wouldn't you? You have to obey God!

[Timmy]

Tim, you know better than God. You tell us! You're omniscient and know you cannot have missed something if God chose not to heal -- you know why. So, tell us, oh Tim!

I am not omniscient. I have never said anything to imply that I think I am.

You, however, know when God has spoken. You know which writings that claim to be inspired by God are inspired by God. OK, technically, I claim to know that, too. But my answer is different from yours, and you actually do think some are inspired. Which ones, and how do you know?

Oh, and you have already enlightened me on my brother's death. It was because I asked amiss. It was about my own lusts. Thanks.

And no, I don't know anything better than God. Where did you get that?

[mfblume]

It's OK to kill babies, as punishment for what some of their parents did? To take the virgin women and girls as spoils of war? Well, sure. If God told you to. You would too, wouldn't you? You have to obey God!

You need to read the bible more carefully, oh great mocker. The babies were distinctly not to be killed. Any other way to misrepresent the bible, ye who could not have been wrong about your lack of healing, omniscience personified?

[mfblume]

I am not omniscient. I have never said anything to imply that I think I am.

Sure you did! You said you almost went crazy over not being healed or a brother not being healed. That implies omnicscience because you could not trust God in the midst of it as though he might have a rason you do not know, but demanded nothing other than healing. You had no concept God might have a reason unknown to you, so you could only conclude He is not real nor does He exist because the healing did not come.

You, however, know when God has spoken. You know which writings that claim to be inspired by God are inspired by God. OK, technically, I claim to know that, too. But my answer is different from yours, and you actually do think some are inspired. Which ones, and how do you know?

It's the books in the bible. ANYTHING ELSE is subject to error. EVEN MY WORDS.


Oh, and you have already enlightened me on my brother's death. It was because I asked amiss. It was about my own lusts. Thanks.

Wrong. I simply said there may have been a key to his healing you did not know about, or God may have had a purpose for the death. There are many reasons that it could be, but I sure don't know the one. In fact that was my point to you. You thought you knew according to the word, so you said the word must be wrong since what you thought you knew was not the case. Omniscience.

I don't know. But you sure claim you do -- to you that means there is no God!

And no, I don't know anything better than God. Where did you get that?

Your omniscience demonstrated in concluding God must not exist as explained above.

[Timmy]

You need to read the bible more carefully, oh great mocker. The babies were distinctly not to be killed. Any other way to misrepresent the bible, ye who could not have been wrong about your lack of healing, omniscience personified?

I need to read more carefully? Bwahahahaha!

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

[Timmy]

BTW, no, of course I don't disagree with God. I disagree with you.

[mfblume]

BTW, no, of course I don't disagree with God. I disagree with you.

Did I write the bible, Tim? What is it? Do you agree with God or with the God of the Bible? IS God the God of the Bible? Please tell us, omniscient one. Am I the God of the Bible? You believe I was wrong when your brother died? I am saddened by your loss. Please understand me. But was I the blame? Not the God of the Bible? Or what is it about the God of the bible you are trying to say?

[mfblume]

I agree with what Adam Clarke said about the deaths of babies.

Kill every male among the little ones - For this action I account simply on the principle that God, who is the author and supporter of life, has a right to dispose of it when and how he thinks proper; and the Judge of all the earth can do nothing but what is right. Of the women killed on this occasion it may be safely said, their lives were forfeited by their personal transgressions; and yet even in this case there can be little doubt that God showed mercy to their souls. The little ones were safely lodged; they were taken to heaven and saved from the evil to come.

[Walks_in_islam]

I'm talking about the sanctioning of outright lying. Yes, God did give ancient Israel stringent laws that included the death penalty. However, the God of the Bible has established various covenants. In Islam, God is very much still back on the bronze age with His approach to man.

Where in the bible does it say lying is unacceptable?

Here?

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

God rewarded lying in this case

Here?

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him ... I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

Again, approved and rewarded

Here?

And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

Was God displeased with this lie?

Here?

Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Another lie, approved and rewarded

Does God lie?

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

What's this? God commands a lie

"And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon; Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say-She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise: Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live

Do you want to revisit your first post and put what you said beside what your own bible says is acceptable or not acceptable?

[mfblume]

Here?

And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

Was God displeased with this lie?

Here?

Out of context again!

2 Kings 8:10

Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die - That is, God has not determined thy death, nor will it be a necessary consequence of the disease by which thou art now afflicted; but this wicked man will abuse the power and trust thou hast reposed in him, and take away thy life. Even when God has not designed nor appointed the death of a person, he may nevertheless die, though not without the permission of God. This is a farther proof of the doctrine of contingent events: he might live for all his sickness, but thou wilt put an end to his life.

[mfblume]

Where in the bible does it say lying is unacceptable?

Here?

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

God rewarded lying in this case


More from Adam Clarke

I have entered more particularly into this subject because, through want of proper information, (perhaps from a worse motive), certain persons have spoken very unguardedly against this inspired record: “The Hebrew midwives told palpable lies, and God commends them for it; thus we may do evil that good may come of it, and sanctify the means by the end.” Now I contend that there was neither lie direct nor even prevarication in the case. The midwives boldly state to Pharaoh a fact, (had it not been so, he had a thousand means of ascertaining the truth), and they state it in such a way as to bring conviction to his mind on the subject of his oppressive cruelty on the one hand, and the mercy of Jehovah on the other. As if they had said, “The very oppression under which, through thy cruelty, the Israelites groan, their God has turned to their advantage; they are not only fruitful, but they bring forth with comparatively no trouble; we have scarcely any employment among them.” Here then is a fact, boldly announced in the face of danger; and we see that God was pleased with this frankness of the midwives, and he blessed them for it.

[mfblume]

Here?

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him ... I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

Again, approved and rewarded

Sending a lying spirit is not condoning lying. lol. God simply said the lying spirit would cause the prophets to lie. It was a final step after a man had every chance in to the world to get right and follow God.

Next!

[mfblume]

Here?

Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Another lie, approved and rewarded

Does God lie?

That was not overlooked by God. It was a lie. God did not reward her for lying. Her justification was not in lying. lol

[mfblume]

Does God lie?

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

You miss the manner of speaking. God allows spirits to do things -- even evil spirits, when His will cannot be done by the person's volition. So it speaks as though God did it , when he actually suffered it to occur.

[Abiding Now]

Where in the bible does it say lying is unacceptable?


Here.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

:happydance

[Timmy]

Did I write the bible, Tim? What is it? Do you agree with God or with the God of the Bible? IS God the God of the Bible? Please tell us, omniscient one. Am I the God of the Bible? You believe I was wrong when your brother died? I am saddened by your loss. Please understand me. But was I the blame? Not the God of the Bible? Or what is it about the God of the bible you are trying to say?

What's wrong with you?

[Timmy]

I agree with what Adam Clarke said about the deaths of babies.

Kill every male among the little ones - For this action I account simply on the principle that God, who is the author and supporter of life, has a right to dispose of it when and how he thinks proper; and the Judge of all the earth can do nothing but what is right. Of the women killed on this occasion it may be safely said, their lives were forfeited by their personal transgressions; and yet even in this case there can be little doubt that God showed mercy to their souls. The little ones were safely lodged; they were taken to heaven and saved from the evil to come.

So the adults deserved to be killed? :heeheehee

And the "little ones" were better off because they were killed? :blink

[mfblume]

What's wrong with you?

That's what we're trying to figure out about you. Why you spend so much time trying to refute the bible. It's like an OCD mission of some sort.

[Timmy]

That's what we're trying to figure out about you. Why you spend so much time trying to refute the bible. It's like an OCD mission of some sort.

You don't like answering questions, do you?

[mfblume]

You don't like answering questions, do you?

You twist too many things for us to just answer anything you ask. Let's straighten out your misrepresentations first. You are lethal with twists. lol

[mfblume]

Saying that one does not consider what is deserving when one thinks of hell is to you a claim of not caring who is in hell.

Riiighhht.

[Timmy]

Saying that one does not consider what is deserving when one thinks of hell is to you a claim of not caring who is in hell.

Riiighhht.

I didn't say that.

[MarcBee]

But progressive, moderate Muslims would explain some of their own scriptures in the same way and say they were not meant to be taken literally. The point is both Christianity and Islam can be practiced in an extreme fashion ....

Bingo, ILG. Furthermore, a common Christian ruse is to keep claiming that "context" somehow changes the moral meaning of genocide, fratricide, and killing of children. Sorry, but to the morally sensitive, there is probably NO context to justify some crimes--but we keep waiting to hear a good reason! So far, the OT "context" falls flat. Of course, the next favorite toggle is to claim, "God must have his reasons." In other words, if our god did it or said it, it's got to be correct, so lets not accept the REST OF humanity's (in this case superior) moral sense. Or yet another toggle--inventions--such as to claim, "The dead babies must have been spirited safely to the arms of God." This invented stuff does not appear anywhere close to the texts in question. But of course, if they can find a possible explanation based on some other scripture anywhere else in the bible, even if centuries later, that's fair game to the faith-filled mind. Whatever can bail the mind out of cognitive dissonance, no matter how wild or improbable, doesn't matter: gotta preserve personal faith, as well as the infallibility doctrine. It's that simple.

Of course, when Muslims or the Muslim god or the Muslim Messenger perform atrocities similar to the OT god, well, that's different, right? (Boo, hiss....)

:icecream

[Pressing-On]

Bingo, ILG. Furthermore, a common Christian ruse is to keep claiming that "context" somehow changes the moral meaning of genocide, fratricide, and killing of children. Sorry, but to the morally sensitive, there is probably NO context to justify some crimes--but we keep waiting to hear a good reason! So far, the OT "context" falls flat. Of course, the next favorite toggle is to claim, "God must have his reasons." In other words, if our god did it or said it, it's got to be correct, so lets not accept the REST OF humanity's (in this case superior) moral sense. Or yet another toggle--inventions--such as to claim, "The dead babies must have been spirited safely to the arms of God." This invented stuff does not appear anywhere close to the texts in question. But of course, if they can find a possible explanation based on some other scripture anywhere else in the bible, even if centuries later, that's fair game to the faith-filled mind. Whatever can bail the mind out of cognitive dissonance, no matter how wild or improbable, doesn't matter: gotta preserve personal faith, as well as the infallibility doctrine. It's that simple.

Of course, when Muslims or the Muslim god or the Muslim Messenger perform atrocities similar to the OT god, well, that's different, right? (Boo, hiss....)

:icecream

So, today, the only wandering, conquesting, tribal nomads who are still beheading and beating women are not the Hebrews. Why is that?

[mfblume]

I didn't say that.

Timmy, who knows what you said?

[Timmy]

Timmy, who knows what you said?

It's all right here!


Again. What is wrong with you!?

[mfblume]

Bingo, ILG. Furthermore, a common Christian ruse is to keep claiming that "context" somehow changes the moral meaning of genocide, fratricide, and killing of children. Sorry, but to the morally sensitive, there is probably NO context to justify some crimes--but we keep waiting to hear a good reason! So far, the OT "context" falls flat. Of course, the next favorite toggle is to claim, "God must have his reasons." In other words, if our god did it or said it, it's got to be correct, so lets not accept the REST OF humanity's (in this case superior) moral sense. Or yet another toggle--inventions--such as to claim, "The dead babies must have been spirited safely to the arms of God." This invented stuff does not appear anywhere close to the texts in question. But of course, if they can find a possible explanation based on some other scripture anywhere else in the bible, even if centuries later, that's fair game to the faith-filled mind. Whatever can bail the mind out of cognitive dissonance, no matter how wild or improbable, doesn't matter: gotta preserve personal faith, as well as the infallibility doctrine. It's that simple.

Of course, when Muslims or the Muslim god or the Muslim Messenger perform atrocities similar to the OT god, well, that's different, right? (Boo, hiss....)

:icecream

You certainly cannot trust God like this, can you? More omniscience I see.

The fact remains that we who trust God see the results God said we would see in answering prayers and performing wonders and miracles and changing our lives. You can mock us for doing what the bible said all you like. It's a free forum, it seems. However, the miracles I have seen are real and prove that what He said in His word is true. Obviously you never saw such results. And the stipulation is that the adage "seeing is believing" will keep you from seeing. So , it remains a very personal thing that can only be proved to oneself. I cannot prove anything to you, since it was made in a way in which I see the proof for me.

If you say you tried it and it doesn't or didn't work, then I can only respond saying it did for me. And I am not lying when I say it worked for. What the Bible said would occur if we believe did occur with me!

[mfblume]

It's all right here!


Again. What is wrong with you!?

You just keep on telling yourself that.

[MarcBee]

So, today, the only wandering, conquesting, tribal nomads who are still beheading and beating women are not the Hebrews. Why is that?

Not sure who you mean by "Hebrews" (The modern ones? There aren't any Hebrew tribes anymore, and Israel is so secular today that 50% of them don't even observe the Sabbath.)

But IMO, the answer is "secularization," thanks largely to the Romans, and the Jewish diaspora of 70 AD. (Merely 70 or 72 years before that, a group of Jews were supposedly ready to stone a certain woman taken in adultery, and asked Jesus how to handle it. So maybe that's a benchmark of sorts concerning stoning.) Anyhow, Jews got spread across three continents, and were cross pollinated by different cultural forces. By the time of Israel's nationhood in 1948, the religious nature of many Jews had changed, at least they were no longer very high on the scale of "OT literalism."

But some or many muslims today simply BELIEVE what their book tells them to do, approximately as deeply as many fundamentalist Christians also believe--if god said it, it's correct, and that's why you all defend the baby killer OT hero, Joshua. Or, just 600 or 1000 years ago, BELIEF had equally violent manifestations from the Christians-du-jour, the Catholics. And later on with Protestant leaders, whenever they could get the upper hand. Oops, and Nigerian Pentecostals who still kill "witches" today. Aside from that.....Amen, down with muslim terrorists.

:icecream

[mfblume]

Not sure who you mean by "Hebrews" (The modern ones? There aren't any Hebrew tribes anymore, and Israel is so secular today that 50% of them don't even observe the Sabbath.)

But IMO, the answer is "secularization," thanks largely to the Romans, and the Jewish diaspora of 70 AD. (Merely 70 or 72 years before that, a group of Jews were supposedly ready to stone a certain woman taken in adultery, and asked Jesus how to handle it. So maybe that's a benchmark of sorts concerning stoning.) Anyhow, Jews got spread across three continents, and were cross pollinated by different cultural forces. By the time of Israel's nationhood in 1948, the religious nature of many Jews had changed, at least they were no longer very high on the scale of "OT literalism."

But some or many muslims today simply BELIEVE what their book tells them to do, approximately as deeply as many fundamentalist Christians also believe--if god said it, it's correct, and that's why you all defend the baby killer OT hero, Joshua. Or, just 600 or 1000 years ago, BELIEF had equally violent manifestations from the Christians-du-jour, the Catholics. And later on with Protestant leaders, whenever they could get the upper hand. Oops, and Nigerian Pentecostals who still kill "witches" today. Aside from that.....Amen, down with muslim terrorists.

:icecream

Despite anyone since the cross who slew another for the Lord, the New Testament teaches no such thing nor allows for it.

[MarcBee]

Despite anyone since the cross who slew another for the Lord, the New Testament teaches no such thing nor allows for it.

And thank god! Imagine that! The NT does not condone killing "for the Lord". But if it did, believers would be defending it just like they defend the baby and woman killer OT hero Joshua.

But, if you are a powerful enough mand of god, you still can possibly "sick the Holy Ghost" on a poor miscreant Christian, to have their flesh destroyed FOR THEIR OWN good, maybe not unlike how the OT enemy babies were killed "for their own good" (some here are saying.) ICor. 5:5

:icecream

[mfblume]

And thank god! Imagine that! The NT does not condone killing "for the Lord". But if it did, believers would be defending it just like they defend the baby and woman killer OT hero Joshua.

But, if you are a powerful enough mand of god, you still can possibly "sick the Holy Ghost" on a poor miscreant Christian, to have their flesh destroyed FOR THEIR OWN good, maybe not unlike how the OT enemy babies were killed "for their own good" (some here are saying.) ICor. 5:5

:icecream

Why do you come on Christian forums and spout that drivel? It gives you some kick?

[Pressing-On]

Not sure who you mean by "Hebrews" (The modern ones? There aren't any Hebrew tribes anymore,

Right. That was the point. When is Islam going to change their 1406 BC timeline?

Let’s look at the “myth” of moderate Islam.

Let’s focus on their inherent beliefs more than focusing on whether or not they are violent:


According to a 2011 Pew Research poll:
1.6 Billion Muslims live in this world - in 49 different countries there they have the majority


Asia - 205 Million Muslims
Indonesia and a lot of other countries - 50% support strict Sharia Law
70% - Blame the US or Israel for 911
Total: 143 radicalized Muslims

Egypt: 80 million Muslims
65% support strict Sharia law
70% positive or mixed feelings about Ben Laden
Total: 55.2 Million radicalized Muslims

Pakistan - 179 Million Muslims
76% support strict Sharia law in ALL Islamic countries
Total: 135.4 Million radicalized Muslims

Bangladesh - 149 Million Muslims
2013 Pew Research - 1/4 believe suicide bombings sometimes justified
82% want Sharia law as official law of the country
2/3 support honor killings of women as sometimes justified
Total: 121.9 Million radicalized Muslims

Nigeria - 75.7 Million Muslims
71% favor Sharia Law
Total: 53:7 Million radicalized Muslims

Iran - 74.8 Million Muslims
83% favor Sharia as of 2013
Total: 62.1 Million radicalized Muslims

Turkey - 74.7 Million Muslims (the most moderate Muslim country and ally of the US)
32% support honor killings of women as sometimes justified.
Total: 23.9 million radicalized Muslims

Morocco - 32.4 Million Muslims
3/4 support Sharia Law
Total: 24.6 Million radicalized Muslims

Iraq - 31.1 Million Muslims
78% support honor killings of women
Total: 24.3 Million radicalized Muslims

Afghanistan - 24 Million Muslims
76% support honor killing of women
99% support Sharia law
Total: 24 Million radicalized Muslims

Jordan - 6.4 Million Muslims
60% approval ratings for Hamas
Total: 3.8 Million radicalized Muslims

Palestinian Areas - 4.3 Million Muslims
78% positive or mixed feelings about Bin Laden
89% support terror attacks against Israel
89% support Sharia Law
Total: 3.83 Million radicalized Muslims

France - 4/7 Million Muslims
2007 - 35% favored suicide bombings as justified
Total: 1.6 Million radicalized Muslims

Great Britain - 2.8 Million Muslims
78% wanted prosecution of Mohammad cartoonist
Total: 2.2 Million radicalized Muslims

United States - 2.6 "Moderate" Muslims
13% support violence against civilians as justified
19% favorable to Al Qaeda
Total: 500,000 radicalized Muslims

Grand Total: 680,030,000 radicalized Muslims

942.4 Million Total Muslims - leaving off the totals for Algeria, Syria, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Tunisia, Somalia and Libya.

What is the logical conclusion? That the totals are NOT a "minority", they are a "MAJORITY"! - "MODERATE IS A MYTH"!!!!

[ILG]

No such thing as a moderate Muslim IMO.

Islam is NOT Christianity hence the fallacy of your logic and the FACT that thousands upon thousands of Muslims are murdering people, enslaving women and crucifying children TODAY.

I worked with a moderate Muslim. She is a very nice person. Doesn't wear a covering either, just like some Christian women wear a covering and some don't.

[ILG]

Bingo, ILG. Furthermore, a common Christian ruse is to keep claiming that "context" somehow changes the moral meaning of genocide, fratricide, and killing of children. Sorry, but to the morally sensitive, there is probably NO context to justify some crimes--but we keep waiting to hear a good reason! So far, the OT "context" falls flat. Of course, the next favorite toggle is to claim, "God must have his reasons." In other words, if our god did it or said it, it's got to be correct, so lets not accept the REST OF humanity's (in this case superior) moral sense. Or yet another toggle--inventions--such as to claim, "The dead babies must have been spirited safely to the arms of God." This invented stuff does not appear anywhere close to the texts in question. But of course, if they can find a possible explanation based on some other scripture anywhere else in the bible, even if centuries later, that's fair game to the faith-filled mind. Whatever can bail the mind out of cognitive dissonance, no matter how wild or improbable, doesn't matter: gotta preserve personal faith, as well as the infallibility doctrine. It's that simple.

Of course, when Muslims or the Muslim god or the Muslim Messenger perform atrocities similar to the OT god, well, that's different, right? (Boo, hiss....)

:icecream

Well, the Bible is really a bunch of writings written over a loooooonnnnggg space of time and put together by men too. If it was put together by men, it should be allowed questioning. I mean, God didn't put it together.

[ILG]

You certainly cannot trust God like this, can you? More omniscience I see.
!

Actually, I think you trust God MORE like this, seems to me.

[Pliny]

Why do you come on Christian forums and spout that drivel? It gives you some kick?

Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.

[Pliny]

Right. That was the point. When is Islam going to change their 1406 BC timeline?

Then there is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/terrorism3.html

[Pliny]

I worked with a moderate Muslim. She is a very nice person. Doesn't wear a covering either, just like some Christian women wear a covering and some don't.

She must not believe the koran and is therefore not a Muslim or is applying the doctrine of taqiyya.

Does she believe Sharia should be imposed on the world? If not she does not believe the koran because the koran demands it by force if necessary.

[Esaias]

MarcBee, since there is no God, then there is no system of ethics or morality beyond those invented by humans. And therefore none of them are "objective or transcendent".

That being the case, the only ground you have for objecting to "genocide" is your personal preferences, feelings, and will. Should your personal feelings be forced on everyone else?

And why are you so holier than thou, you speak as if YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS are the standard of what constitutes "enlightenment" while disparaging everyone else who might not accept YOU as the final arbiter of right and wrong?

[Esaias]

How many people have been murdered at the hands of atheistic and/or "secular" governments? 100 million? 200 million? In the last 150 years alone?

[Esaias]

As for who is a "true muslim" and who is not... wouldn't that be up to muslims to decide?

Would anyone here acknowledge a muslim pontificating on who is a true christian and who is not?

Didn't think so.

To me, if a person self identifies as muslim, there are at least a nominal muslim in my book.

[Ferd]

As for who is a "true muslim" and who is not... wouldn't that be up to muslims to decide?

Would anyone here acknowledge a muslim pontificating on who is a true christian and who is not?

Didn't think so.

To me, if a person self identifies as muslim, there are at least a nominal muslim in my book.

Here is a good piont of reference.

WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us drivin a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.

Every single day for centruries, muslims have paid with thier lives, because some other muslim doesnt think they are the right kind of muslim.

[BrotherEastman]

And thank god! Imagine that! The NT does not condone killing "for the Lord". But if it did, believers would be defending it just like they defend the baby and woman killer OT hero Joshua.

But, if you are a powerful enough mand of god, you still can possibly "sick the Holy Ghost" on a poor miscreant Christian, to have their flesh destroyed FOR THEIR OWN good, maybe not unlike how the OT enemy babies were killed "for their own good" (some here are saying.) ICor. 5:5

:icecream

*yawn* you are way off topic, I have an idea, why don't you start a new thread?

[Pressing-On]

Here is a good point of reference.

WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us driven a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.

Every single day for centuries, muslims have paid with their lives, because some other muslim doesn't think they are the right kind of muslim.
:thumbsup :thumbsup

[ILG]

She must not believe the koran and is therefore not a Muslim or is applying the doctrine of taqiyya.

Does she believe Sharia should be imposed on the world? If not she does not believe the koran because the koran demands it by force if necessary.

The women here must not be Christians because they don't wear a covering like the Mennonites. I say that because I get to decided who is Christian and who is not. Savvy?

[ILG]

Here is a good piont of reference.

WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us drivin a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.

Every single day for centruries, muslims have paid with thier lives, because some other muslim doesnt think they are the right kind of muslim.

There are Christians who kill abortion doctors. There are catholic and protestant wars in Ireland. There were the crusades. The point is, people call themselves Christians and don't act like you do. People call themselves Muslims and don't act like terrorists.

[Ferd]

Thank you for bringing up these points. They are very good points of references to juxtapose Christianity and islam.

1. Christians who kill abortion doctors.
We agree that
A. it has happened.
now do we also agree that
A. Christian Ministers roundly reject this, speak open and often that it is NOT representative of Christianity to kill people we do not agree with
B. Understand that the actual number of murdering terrorists who actually kill abortion drs can be listed on a single hand over the last 10 years? that the number for all of the modern era is less than what? 100?

2. Catholic/Protestant Wars in Ireland.
That my friend is a mis-representation of the history of Ireland.

It is in fact lazy to boil that down to a religious war.


The strife that STILL exists in Ireland... and that has at times blown up into actual war and terrorism is NOT religiously motivated.

Here is the very brief history. back in the 1200s Henry II invaded Ireland. This led to his taking land from the Irish and giving it to his Norman/French followers. over the centuries, English Kings dominated the Irish and they hated them for it. in the 1500s the English Monarch split with the catholic church, but the Irish maintained close ties to the Catholic church. In the wars that followed with Ireland, the Irish sought to gain their independence from the English Crown. The Crown won the wars and took land from the Irish and gave it to their followers. These followers were protestant. then came more wars.

The Irish fought the English invaders year by year, decade by decade, century by century. They fought not because one side was Protestant and they were catholic. They fought because they had been invaded by the English who were taking their land, raping their women and starving their kids.

It just so happened that the Irish were catholic and the invaders became Protestant. the war was and is over English invasions for 800 years.

3. There were the crusades. This is a well-used argument. Crusades.... So let’s review what the crusades were.
first, the lands around Jerusalem were Christian lands. controlled by the Byzantine Emperor. Then Muhammad rose to power and over a number of years, the Arabs gained control of a lot of land... including Jerusalem. BUT that wasn’t the end of their invasions. from the 600s to the 1000s Muslims expanded into Christian held lands. They took large portions of the Byzantine lands, they took portions of Italy. They took portions of southern france. They took complete control of North Africa, extinguishing entire Christian nations…it was these Islamic invasions over a 400 year period that ended Aryanism. They took almost all of what we now call Spain.

So over that period, the Christian nations fought for their survival against an enemy with a very different culture which was vastly different from the mideval wars within the Christian nations that raged at the same time. This was seen as a cultural war by both sides. Beyond that the Muslims saw themselves as the “sword of allah” and the Christians saw themselves as “defenders of the faith”. BOTH SIDES saw the invading muslims as the agressors and the Christians as the defenders….

THEN at the same time the Vikings began their invasions from the north. Christian Europe became an armed camp every man capable of fighting was in an army marching around the countryside figting off invader after invader. The Vikings could not simply be defeated, because more came and none were controled by any one king. They were just marauders. So in the end, the church just went there and CONVERTED THEM thus ending the Viking invasions. BUT that left Christian Europe with a serious problem. They had HUGE armies full of men who had no trade other than fighting…. And most of those they had been fighting were no longer invading.

THIS was the political and social pressure that led the church to point toward turning from being defensive to being the agressors where the muslims were concerned. Enter the Crusades. 400 years of pent up frustration, cultural pressure, and massive armies that were going to undo their own societies combined to form a perfect storm that brought about the Crusades. MOST of it was just socio-economic-political realities clothed in the religious language of the age.


BUT beyond that, it can be argued that John Hunyadi who died in 1456 of the plague was The Last Crusader…Certainly by the year 1500, there was no one left alive who could legitamatly wear the Crusaders Cross. We have lived for 514 years, without a single Christian Crusader walking to and fro upon the earth…YESTERDAY AT THE VERY LEAST 10,000 FUTURE JIHADIES WERE BORN…



Finally, you suggest that the point of your points are that there are Christians that don’t act like me. That is true. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians don’t act like me. I believe baptism in Jesus Name is required for salvation. I do not own a single piece of jewlery. In fact, I have never owned a wedding ring. ive been married 19 years. I do not ever go out in public wearing shorts. Period. I never drink. I think it is a sin. Those things alone, separate me from the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. I don’t any issue with what others do.

BUT the numbers of people who call themselves Christian, have NEVER ONCE tried to kill someone for the cause of Christianity. The statistical reality is the number of such is so close to zero as to be statistically inseperable from zero.
TODAY more than one Muslim will attempt to and likely succeed in killing someone (liklely a fellow muslim) because they believe their victim doesn’t believe in islam in the right way. These people number in the millions. Hundreds of millions more muslims while not activly killing people, believe such is utterly reasonable.

[Praxeas]

I worked with a moderate Muslim. She is a very nice person. Doesn't wear a covering either, just like some Christian women wear a covering and some don't.
Ive known and met many "Moderate" Muslims.

Yes many of them are not like the extremists nut jobs but try getting them to condemn their actions in Canada or ISIS and they won't

Many seem to sympathize with Hamas and other groups.

And the reason why is their global agenda is the same, to spread Islam.

Now, before someone jumps up and down about Christians spreading Christianity, we spread it by word of mouth, not by violence or force and while at one time some groups DID that in the past things have changed and most of us do not condone that sort of thing

[houston]

Here is a good piont of reference. WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us drivin a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics. Every single day for centruries, muslims have paid with thier lives, because some other muslim doesnt think they are the right kind of muslim. but I'm sure some would have liked to, if they knew they could get into heaven

[jfrog]

It's funny how Christians are so quick to dismiss claims against their religion but don't give any other religion the same benefit of a doubt

[Praxeas]

It's funny how Christians are so quick to dismiss claims against their religion but don't give any other religion the same benefit of a doubt
No whats funny is Muslims do that exact thing in reverse. They make excuses for their religions doctrine and book and mock us when we do the same.

Im willing to give them that benefit of the doubt if they will reciprocate but here is the real issue that is being obfuscated

There are a LOT of Muslims that do not dismiss those claims. They are in a Jihad right now because they believe the Quran tells them so

Please tell us where on this planet Christians kill masses of people in the name of their God while citing the Quran and shouting "Jesus is Great!"??

It does not exist and when or if it does it's a single nut job like Timothy McVeigh and the first ones to stand up and condemn such actions are Christians

Seriously..I am in a Facebook forum with thousands of Muslims as members and I ask often for someone to stand up and condemn those actions that occurred recently in Canada and not one will do it

They see the topic but they don't answer

It's always the Christians that do

That exercise is repeated wth regards to other issues involving people claiming to be Muslims. We ask and they refuse to respond

That is what people are asking..where are these Moderate Muslims? It's usually only some brave single person who will speak up...and often it's a woman.

But by and large I don't see Moderate Muslims speaking up

[jfrog]

If true on a large scale it is troubling that such Muslims do not condemn those groups

[jfrog]

Maybe walks in Islam can condemn groups like Isis here?

[Praxeas]

If true on a large scale it is troubling that such Muslims do not condemn those groups
It's my personal experience. But I have heard of polls being done at Muslim conventions and other places where they ask similar questions .

Its eye opening. Maybe I can find some
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/09/the_mysterious_moderate_muslim_.html

[mfblume]

Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.

lol. Sounds likely right.

[BrotherEastman]

Maybe walks in Islam can condemn groups like Isis here?

I highly doubt that he will. lol

[mfblume]

Islam allegedly is a word meaning peaceful or something close, right? ISIS is the epitome of ISLAM! lol

[Ferd]

It's funny how Christians are so quick to dismiss claims against their religion but don't give any other religion the same benefit of a doubt

are you kidding? really?

I have never once suggested the Hindu religion or Buddists faith or Shintoism or Confusism or Ba'hai or Zorastorism or any other religion had a violence problem

I have never argued that there arent idiots that hijack relegion.


But we are really clear about the simple fact that TODAY RIGHT NOW there is one group of people acting out on a massive scale, killing people BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION.

ONE

Not two, not ten. Not a single sect of islam, but every sect of islam killing other muslims, killing non-muslims as an act of their faith, based purely upon the idea that they are following their God, as he commands in their holy book

[Ferd]

Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.

Here is yet another good point of reference.

you are right Pliny.

Lets explore.


If you take a Christian Cross, put it in a jar with urine and hang it in a museum and the "artist" gets paid for doing it by federal tax dollars, you get outrage from Christians.

It looks like this. A bunch of Christians say "that is OUTRAGEOUS!"

The next morning we all get up, go to work and move along.


You have a guy draw a picture of Muhammad in a news paper in Eruope, peaceful muslims riot the world over. death threats are issued. muslim preachers issue a thing they call a fatwa which is basically a Holy Death Warrent.

[Pressing-On]

Thank you for bringing up these points. They are very good points of references to juxtapose Christianity and islam.

1. Christians who kill abortion doctors.
We agree that
A. it has happened.
now do we also agree that
A. Christian Ministers roundly reject this, speak open and often that it is NOT representative of Christianity to kill people we do not agree with
B. Understand that the actual number of murdering terrorists who actually kill abortion drs can be listed on a single hand over the last 10 years? that the number for all of the modern era is less than what? 100?

2. Catholic/Protestant Wars in Ireland.
That my friend is a misrepresentation of the history of Ireland.

It is in fact lazy to boil that down to a religious war.


The strife that STILL exists in Ireland... and that has at times blown up into actual war and terrorism is NOT religiously motivated.

Here is the very brief history. back in the 1200s Henry II invaded Ireland. This led to his taking land from the Irish and giving it to his Norman/French followers. over the centuries, English Kings dominated the Irish and they hated them for it. in the 1500s the English Monarch split with the catholic church, but the Irish maintained close ties to the Catholic church. In the wars that followed with Ireland, the Irish sought to gain their independence from the English Crown. The Crown won the wars and took land from the Irish and gave it to their followers. These followers were protestant. then came more wars.

The Irish fought the English invaders year by year, decade by decade, century by century. They fought not because one side was Protestant and they were catholic. They fought because they had been invaded by the English who were taking their land, raping their women and starving their kids.

It just so happened that the Irish were catholic and the invaders became Protestant. the war was and is over English invasions for 800 years.

3. There were the crusades. This is a well-used argument. Crusades.... So let’s review what the crusades were.
first, the lands around Jerusalem were Christian lands. controlled by the Byzantine Emperor. Then Muhammad rose to power and over a number of years, the Arabs gained control of a lot of land... including Jerusalem. BUT that wasn’t the end of their invasions. from the 600s to the 1000s Muslims expanded into Christian held lands. They took large portions of the Byzantine lands, they took portions of Italy. They took portions of southern France. They took complete control of North Africa, extinguishing entire Christian nations…it was these Islamic invasions over a 400 year period that ended Aryanism. They took almost all of what we now call Spain.

So over that period, the Christian nations fought for their survival against an enemy with a very different culture which was vastly different from the midieval wars within the Christian nations that raged at the same time. This was seen as a cultural war by both sides. Beyond that the Muslims saw themselves as the “sword of allah” and the Christians saw themselves as “defenders of the faith”. BOTH SIDES saw the invading muslims as the aggressors and the Christians as the defenders….

THEN at the same time the Vikings began their invasions from the north. Christian Europe became an armed camp every man capable of fighting was in an army marching around the countryside fighting off invader after invader. The Vikings could not simply be defeated, because more came and none were controlled by any one king. They were just marauders. So in the end, the church just went there and CONVERTED THEM thus ending the Viking invasions. BUT that left Christian Europe with a serious problem. They had HUGE armies full of men who had no trade other than fighting…. And most of those they had been fighting were no longer invading.

THIS was the political and social pressure that led the church to point toward turning from being defensive to being the aggressors where the muslims were concerned. Enter the Crusades. 400 years of pent up frustration, cultural pressure, and massive armies that were going to undo their own societies combined to form a perfect storm that brought about the Crusades. MOST of it was just socio-economic-political realities clothed in the religious language of the age.


BUT beyond that, it can be argued that John Hunyadi who died in 1456 of the plague was The Last Crusader…Certainly by the year 1500, there was no one left alive who could legitimately wear the Crusaders Cross. We have lived for 514 years, without a single Christian Crusader walking to and fro upon the earth…YESTERDAY AT THE VERY LEAST 10,000 FUTURE JIHADIES WERE BORN…



Finally, you suggest that the point of your points are that there are Christians that don’t act like me. That is true. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians don’t act like me. I believe baptism in Jesus Name is required for salvation. I do not own a single piece of jewelry. In fact, I have never owned a wedding ring. I've been married 19 years. I do not ever go out in public wearing shorts. Period. I never drink. I think it is a sin. Those things alone, separate me from the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. I don’t any issue with what others do.

BUT the numbers of people who call themselves Christian, have NEVER ONCE tried to kill someone for the cause of Christianity. The statistical reality is the number of such is so close to zero as to be statistically inseparable from zero.
TODAY more than one Muslim will attempt to and likely succeed in killing someone (likely a fellow muslim) because they believe their victim doesn’t believe in islam in the right way. These people number in the millions. Hundreds of millions more muslims while not actively killing people, believe such is utterly reasonable.

Good stuff, Ferdinand!! :thumbsup

[MarcBee]

Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.

Quite right! Therefore, I commend all you AFF readers here who are willing and able to talk things through instead of calling for my immediate death. Although, a few of you keep reminding me (*yawn*) about my impending eternal destruction. And although in other times and places, I would definitely fear for my life among Christians, too. Congratulations, you are all better than that. Give your god the glory! [Of course, I give wider cultural forces such as church/state separation, secular legal system, and AFF administators the glory.]

Bro. Eastman, I will be addressing the other challenges in Timmy Talk, so as to not go further off topic in this thread.

On topic point. Violence-leaning muslims merely walk by FAITH. Maybe that's how y'all "have their number" so surely!

:icecream

[Walks_in_islam]

Here.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

:happydance

Happy dance doesn't explain why lying is condoned and yes even rewarded in some circumstances, in the bible. Do you have an answer to the specific passages or not? No? Then the words say that there are specific circumstances, in the bible, where lying is acceptable.

[Walks_in_islam]

Ive known and met many "Moderate" Muslims.

Yes many of them are not like the extremists nut jobs but try getting them to condemn their actions in Canada or ISIS and they won't

Many seem to sympathize with Hamas and other groups.

And the reason why is their global agenda is the same, to spread Islam.

Now, before someone jumps up and down about Christians spreading Christianity, we spread it by word of mouth, not by violence or force and while at one time some groups DID that in the past things have changed and most of us do not condone that sort of thing

Some points from this thread:

Christians don't lie. Lying is a mortal sin according to the bible
"moderate muslims do not condemn radical Islam"

http://rt.com/uk/200431-muslim-leaders-condemn-isis/ London
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/25/muslims_scholars_open_letter_to_isis_baghdadi_cali phate_s_actions_against.html

From Saudi Arabia:

The 21 senior clerics of Saudi Arabia labeled terrorism a "heinous crime" in a recent fatwa, or legal ruling, and the country has been increasingly vocal in its opposition to ISIS. The influential Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, a native of Mauritania who teaches in Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa of his own condemning the establishment of a caliphate by force. Bin Bayyah's words—"We must declare war on war so the outcome will be peace upon peace"

From the UK:

“In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation,” they write. “Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven.

“In contrast, the senseless kidnapping and despicable threats to Mr Henning cannot be justified.”

Using Koranic references the letter says that if they are true Muslims the kidnappers – including the British man dubbed Jihadi John – must release him “immediately”.

The leaders also express their “horror and revulsion” at the “senseless murder” of the previous three hostages, including the Briton David Haines.

From Indonesia:

“The public have to be critical. This is not about [establishing] a Caliphate [Islamic State]; but [a group] working for its own cause and gains from a sectarian issue,” said Nahdlatul Ulama executive council chair, Slamet Effendy Yusuf.

The Nahdlatul Ulama is one of the largest Islamic organizations in the world and concentrates on traditional Islam. It funds schools and hospitals but is also active in politics. Muhammadiyah, an organization with 29 million members, is more modern, well-known for educational activities, and avoids politics. Secretary Abdul Mu'ti said ISIS does not represent Islam.

“That’s my point, this [movement] is not in the context of religion [Islam],” Abdul said. “We all need to question the group’s goals. Don’t just follow radicals who tried to win their own wars in other countries; we will be the ones to suffer losses.”

From Malaysia:

[I]"They are against the teachings of the Prophet, a man of peace and moderation; and against Islamic law, which prizes the protection of life above all. "Around the world, the majority of Muslims seek to live their lives free from violence. We do not recognise the vision of our faith being forced on innocent civilians… whether Sunni, Shia or Christian… over the barrel of a gun." [/I

When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?

[Aquila]

Moderate Muslims are often silent, especially in some regions of the Middle East because they have often be assassinated. Many in areas outside of the Middle East want low profiles because family members have been arrested or assassinated.

The plight of the moderate Muslim has often been a rather complicated situation.

Here's a Wikipedia link to the liberal Islamic movement. Here you'll see links to schools of thought and various leaders who advocate a more moderate form of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

[Pressing-On]

Some points from this thread:

Christians don't lie. Lying is a mortal sin according to the bible
"moderate muslims do not condemn radical Islam"

http://rt.com/uk/200431-muslim-leaders-condemn-isis/ London
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/25/muslims_scholars_open_letter_to_isis_baghdadi_cali phate_s_actions_against.html

From Saudi Arabia:

The 21 senior clerics of Saudi Arabia labeled terrorism a "heinous crime" in a recent fatwa, or legal ruling, and the country has been increasingly vocal in its opposition to ISIS. The influential Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, a native of Mauritania who teaches in Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa of his own condemning the establishment of a caliphate by force. Bin Bayyah's words—"We must declare war on war so the outcome will be peace upon peace"

From the UK:

“In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation,” they write. “Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven.

“In contrast, the senseless kidnapping and despicable threats to Mr Henning cannot be justified.”

Using Koranic references the letter says that if they are true Muslims the kidnappers – including the British man dubbed Jihadi John – must release him “immediately”.

The leaders also express their “horror and revulsion” at the “senseless murder” of the previous three hostages, including the Briton David Haines.

From Indonesia:

“The public have to be critical. This is not about [establishing] a Caliphate [Islamic State]; but [a group] working for its own cause and gains from a sectarian issue,” said Nahdlatul Ulama executive council chair, Slamet Effendy Yusuf.

The Nahdlatul Ulama is one of the largest Islamic organizations in the world and concentrates on traditional Islam. It funds schools and hospitals but is also active in politics. Muhammadiyah, an organization with 29 million members, is more modern, well-known for educational activities, and avoids politics. Secretary Abdul Mu'ti said ISIS does not represent Islam.

“That’s my point, this [movement] is not in the context of religion [Islam],” Abdul said. “We all need to question the group’s goals. Don’t just follow radicals who tried to win their own wars in other countries; we will be the ones to suffer losses.”

From Malaysia:

[I]"They are against the teachings of the Prophet, a man of peace and moderation; and against Islamic law, which prizes the protection of life above all. "Around the world, the majority of Muslims seek to live their lives free from violence. We do not recognise the vision of our faith being forced on innocent civilians… whether Sunni, Shia or Christian… over the barrel of a gun." [/I

When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?

The thing is, you have taqiyya as part of the muslim faith, something that isn't a part of Christianity - ever. That means no matter what is quoted by you or your people, it is never going to be fully believed to be true.

[Praxeas]

When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?
No. Read my statements again. It was not a blanket statement. I never said there isn't a Muslim anywhere that will do it

But more specifically do YOU condemn what ISIS is doing to Christians, Muslims and others?

Do you condemn the actions recently in Canada by two claiming to be Muslims?

[jfrog]

No. Read my statements again. It was not a blanket statement. I never said there isn't a Muslim anywhere that will do it

But more specifically do YOU condemn what ISIS is doing to Christians, Muslims and others?

Do you condemn the actions recently in Canada by two claiming to be Muslims?

Yea, I noticed that was absent from his page of quotes as well. I thought it was strange or maybe an oversight. Definetely nice to see his page of quotes though :)

[Praxeas]

Yea, I noticed that was absent from his page of quotes as well. I thought it was strange or maybe an oversight. Definetely nice to see his page of quotes though :)
Yes I agree however it seems the most disagreement was over ISIS forming a Caliphate, not raping Christian girls

Lets not forget there is an ideological divide that this ISIS Caliphate idea has with others. Saudi Arabia feels threatened because they don't know how far this caliphate will spread. Will it consume them too?

Iran is threatened because it's a religious faction..Sunni vs Shiite.

So some of that opposition may be political. But what I was getting at s on Social media when I give Muslims the option to vote yes or no. They abstain most of the time

[Walks_in_islam]

The thing is, you have taqiyya as part of the muslim faith, something that isn't a part of Christianity - ever. That means no matter what is quoted by you or your people, it is never going to be fully believed to be true.

Lying isn't a part of Christianity? Whose pipe are you smoking? You think you will lie to me?

Whipping up a congregation with fantastic untrue stories at "alter-call" isn't a part of Christianity?
Tora Bora wives of Bin Laden?
"Prosperity Doctrine"?
Benny Hinn's fake manefestations?
Fantastic prophecies like "the USSR is the kingdom of the beast" or "the common market is the kingdom of the beast" or "a computer in Europe is the beast" spread by two-bit pennycostal evangelists from coast to coast?
Treece refunding all of his buyer's money because his fantastic prophecy books turned out to be inaccurate?
Healing services where "god gives blood transfusions" to random people who don't actually get well after collecting "love offerings" to "get the spirit moving"

This is what I know. You people will do, say, pretend anything to make a few bucks or swell attendance. Go don your nomex. Trying to lie to me. Bleh.

[Walks_in_islam]

Good stuff, Ferdinand!! :thumbsup

Yeah good stuff. Another lie? The Crusades paled to the tactics used to convert the native americans to Christianity. Didn't stop until the early 1900's when they were either locked up on reservations or all dead.

"Smallpox for Jesus" - after passing out contaminated blankets to the native americans:

“the natives are neere all dead of the smalle Poxe, so as the Lord hathe cleared our title to what we posses.” John Winthrope

till their Priests and Ancients have their throats cut, there is no hope to bring them to conversion.”-John Smith

There is a final, far more tragic means to convert the people. Kidnap the children.

1.Rechristen them with English Christian names, forbid the use of their own names.
2.Punish them for speaking their own language, or grab them when they are young enough not to have learned it very well.
3.Force them to live at the Mission School and only visit home 1 or 2 days for the Christian Christmas.
4.Cut their hair, strip them of their clothing and religious artifacts, and denigrate the artifacts as uncivilized, backwards, or "primitive".
5.Do this all when they are young enough to not fight back.

Native populations were decimated by illness, starvation, and war. But the actual native cultures were more decimated by the mission schools and "Jesus" than anything else done to the various Indian peoples.


Jesuits set up reserves for Native Americans and missionaries. The laws governing these reserves reflected Christian values, and punishments varied from whipping, payment, to even death for crimes of adultery, witchcraft, and worshiping any other deity than the Christian God. However, many Natives did not truly convert and became false Christians to avoid punishment, which only further angered the Europeans. Lesser punishments on the reserves were for the following crimes: powwowing, gaming, fornication, polygamy, mourning with loud noises (such as howling), body-greasing, as well as several others


Wow this list is so long I'm just going to save the real good stuff for later.

[Pliny]

Lying isn't a part of Christianity? Whose pipe are you smoking? You think you will lie to me?

Whipping up a congregation with fantastic untrue stories at "alter-call" isn't a part of Christianity?
Tora Bora wives of Bin Laden?
"Prosperity Doctrine"?
Benny Hinn's fake manefestations?
Fantastic prophecies like "the USSR is the kingdom of the beast" or "the common market is the kingdom of the beast" or "a computer in Europe is the beast" spread by two-bit pennycostal evangelists from coast to coast?
Treece refunding all of his buyer's money because his fantastic prophecy books turned out to be inaccurate?
Healing services where "god gives blood transfusions" to random people who don't actually get well after collecting "love offerings" to "get the spirit moving"

This is what I know. You people will do, say, pretend anything to make a few bucks or swell attendance. Go don your nomex. Trying to lie to me. Bleh.


LOL! Typical of Mulism apologists. Never deal with the FACTS. Facts like lying is enshrined in the unholy quran and is encouraged by their perverted profit, you know the profit that married a 6 year old little girl...

Please note this is from a pro-Islamic site.

Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”

“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” [3]

[3]. Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her’. For Muhsin Khan’s translation, see this link and go down to reports listed as Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236.
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm


They also believe:
"the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the perfect model of Islamic teachings whose example shall forever be binding on every Muslim to follow."


So according to this philosophy ALL Muslims should marry 6 year old little girls. How disgusting!!!




And as is typical the Muslim apologists will never deal directly with the truth. The truth that their profit was a pervert for example or the fact that lying is encouraged by their unholy book. The fact that some "Christians" lie is used to justify their own lying. The fact is Christians do NOT condone lying nor does the Bible. Muslims not only condone lying their unholy book prescribes it.

[Pliny]

Yeah good stuff. Another lie? The Crusades paled to the tactics used to convert the native americans to Christianity. Didn't stop until the early 1900's when they were either locked up on reservations or all dead.

"Smallpox for Jesus" - after passing out contaminated blankets to the native americans:

“the natives are neere all dead of the smalle Poxe, so as the Lord hathe cleared our title to what we posses.” John Winthrope

till their Priests and Ancients have their throats cut, there is no hope to bring them to conversion.”-John Smith

There is a final, far more tragic means to convert the people. Kidnap the children.

1.Rechristen them with English Christian names, forbid the use of their own names.
2.Punish them for speaking their own language, or grab them when they are young enough not to have learned it very well.
3.Force them to live at the Mission School and only visit home 1 or 2 days for the Christian Christmas.
4.Cut their hair, strip them of their clothing and religious artifacts, and denigrate the artifacts as uncivilized, backwards, or "primitive".
5.Do this all when they are young enough to not fight back.

Native populations were decimated by illness, starvation, and war. But the actual native cultures were more decimated by the mission schools and "Jesus" than anything else done to the various Indian peoples.


Jesuits set up reserves for Native Americans and missionaries. The laws governing these reserves reflected Christian values, and punishments varied from whipping, payment, to even death for crimes of adultery, witchcraft, and worshiping any other deity than the Christian God. However, many Natives did not truly convert and became false Christians to avoid punishment, which only further angered the Europeans. Lesser punishments on the reserves were for the following crimes: powwowing, gaming, fornication, polygamy, mourning with loud noises (such as howling), body-greasing, as well as several others


Wow this list is so long I'm just going to save the real good stuff for later.



Could you give us an example from this century? LOL!!!

Typical of Muslim apologists. They never deal with the facts. They only seek to justify their disgusting behavior.


Oh wait I know...
It's Christians that are kidnapping, raping and forcing girls into marriages against their will in Egypt...
No wait that was MUSLIMS doing this to Christian girls!

Hundreds of Coptic Christian schoolgirls in Egypt have been kidnapped and forced to convert to the Muslim faith of their abductors in recent years...

There has been a surge in numbers of Christian girls being kidnapped in Egypt since the fall of Hosni Mubarak.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/550.christian.girls.kidnapped.and.forced.to.conver t.in.egypt.since.2011/38177.htm



Ok it must have been Christians in Nigeria that kidnapped schoolgirls and married them off...
No wait that was MUSLIMS!

"Laughing, Shekau said the issue of the girls he'd earlier threatened to sell off as slaves was long forgotten.
"He says they've become Muslims and are now married to Boko Haram fighters. The news is a bitter blow for the families who were clinging to the possibility of some progress, though most Nigerians were deeply skeptical about the government's announcement."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/01/360629727/boko-haram-says-kidnapped-girls-are-now-married



Ok it must be Christians that have attacked others and kidnapped the women and sold them as sex slaves.
No once AGAIN MUSLIMS!

Article in Islamic State's English-language online magazine Dabiq not only admits selling Yazidi women into sex slavery but justifies it according to the theological rulings of early Islam.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11158797/Thousands-of-Yazidi-women-sold-as-sex-slaves-for-theological-reasons-says-Isil.html


Here is a portion of the story of one young girl that was fortunate to escape:
“I was sold in Syria. I stayed about five days with my two sisters. Then one of my sisters was sold and taken to Mosul and I remained in Syria," she said.

She is one of hundreds of women and girls, mostly Yazidis,

The Islamic State has captured and then tortured, raped, sold into slavery, or forced to marry their fighters, according to United Nations and human rights groups.

Most of them are still being held.

A few have been able to call home, either because they were able to hide their phones or because their captors let them. They sound hopeless, says Baher Ali of the international charity AMAR Foundation.

“They ask them, 'Please tell Iraqi authorities, please tell U.S. and other international community to bomb this place that we are living now. We want to die. We don’t want to live because we are dying already,'" said Ali.

Human Rights Watch recently published a report on forced marriage and conversion of Yazidis by the Islamic State.
http://www.voanews.com/content/grim-fate-awaits-women-girls-captured-by-islamic-state/2501391.html


And the list goes on and on and on and on...


Do we need to discuss the Kansas City shooter:
Mohammed Whitaker arraigned on 18 felony charges in series of highway shootings

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article346082/Mohammed-Whitaker-arraigned-on-18-felony-charges-in-series-of-highway-shootings.html#storylink=cpy

What about the Oklahoma beheading?
Prosecutor to seek death penalty in Oklahoma beheading
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/justice/oklahoma-beheading-death-penalty/


Or the assault on Police Officers in NY
Hatchet assault on New York police comes during fears of Islamist attacks
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/us/new-york-hatchet-islamist-suspicions/



It's because of MUSLIMS that police and soldiers in England are told to NOT wear their uniforms unless they are on duty.
British soldiers warned not to wear uniforms in public: alert over copycat Lee Rigby-style jihad murders - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2014/02/british-soldiers-warned-wear-uniforms-public-alert-copycat-lee-rigby-style-jihad-murders.html/#sthash.jCX6j9wF.dpuf



There is also the recent unprovoked assaults in Canada
'Terrorist' murdered soldier 'in cold blood,' Canada's Prime Minister says
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/world/americas/canada-ottawa-shooting/


And the list goes on and on and on and on...


One last thought concerning the Muslim Brotherhood organization that we hear so much about and is active in the US Government.
Muslim Brotherhood Fact Sheet
"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope. Allahu akbar!” [1]

The Brotherhood’s goal is to turn the world into an Islamist empire. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928, is a revolutionary fundamentalist movement to restore the caliphate and strict shariah (Islamist) law in Muslim lands and, ultimately, the world. Today, it has chapters in 80 countries.

“It is in the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet.” —Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna[2]

· The Brotherhood wants America to fall. It tells followers to be “patient” because America “is heading towards its demise.” The U.S. is an infidel that “does not champion moral and human values and cannot lead humanity.” —Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammed Badi, Sept. 2010[3]

· The Brotherhood claims western democracy is “corrupt,” “unrealistic.” and “false.”
—Former Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammed Mahdi Akef [4]

· The Brotherhood calls for jihad against “the Muslim’s real enemies, not only Israel but also the United States. Waging jihad against both of these infidels is a commandment of Allah that cannot be disregarded.” —Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammed Badi, Sept. 2010[5]


[1]Cited Lorenzo Vidino, “The Muslim Brotherhood’s Conquest of Europe,” Middle East Quarterly, Winter, 2005 at http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europeand in Andrew C. McCarthy, “Fear the Muslim Brotherhood,” National Review, Jan. 31, 2011, at http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/258419
[2]“The Muslim Brotherhood,” The Investigative Project on Terrorism, http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/173
[3]Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammad Badi, "How Islam Confronts the Oppression and Tyranny,” Sermon, Sept. 2010, translated at MEMRI at http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4650.htm
[4]Cited in Lt. Col. (res.) Jonathan Dahoah-Halevi, “The Muslim Brotherhood: A Moderate Islamic Alternative to al-Qaeda or a Partner in Global Jihad?” Jerusalem Viewpoints, Nov. 1, 2007, at http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=2&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=443&PID=0&IID=1920&TTL=The_Muslim_Brotherhood:_A_Moderate_Islamic_Alt ernative_to_al-Qaeda_or_a_Partner_in_Global_Jihad?
[5]Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammad Badi, "How Islam Confronts the Oppression and Tyranny,” Sermon, Sept. 2010, translated at MEMRI at http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4650.htm



Then there is the object of lying in Islam.
The Brotherhood advocates a deceptive strategy in democracies: appear moderate and use existing institutions to gain power. “The civilizational-jihadist process…is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house…so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious overall other religions,” reads a US Muslim Brotherhood 1991 document.[13] It believes it can conquer Europe peacefully: “After having been expelled twice, Islam will be victorious and reconquer Europe....I am certain that this time, victory will be won not by the sword but by preaching and [Islamic] ideology.” — Muslim Brotherhood Spiritual leader Yusuf al-Qaradawi, “Fatwa,” 2003[14]
https://www.standwithus.com/news/article.asp?id=1757

[Jason B]

Lying isn't a part of Christianity? Whose pipe are you smoking? You think you will lie to me?

Whipping up a congregation with fantastic untrue stories at "alter-call" isn't a part of Christianity?
Tora Bora wives of Bin Laden?
"Prosperity Doctrine"?
Benny Hinn's fake manefestations?
Fantastic prophecies like "the USSR is the kingdom of the beast" or "the common market is the kingdom of the beast" or "a computer in Europe is the beast" spread by two-bit pennycostal evangelists from coast to coast?
Treece refunding all of his buyer's money because his fantastic prophecy books turned out to be inaccurate?
Healing services where "god gives blood transfusions" to random people who don't actually get well after collecting "love offerings" to "get the spirit moving"

This is what I know. You people will do, say, pretend anything to make a few bucks or swell attendance. Go don your nomex. Trying to lie to me. Bleh.

Oh. This is a GREAT argument. Just take the people who Jesus warned us about (false prophets) and some fanatical elements of fringe Pentecostalism (rejected by most Christians) and build your case. I'm convinced now. :rolleyes

[Praxeas]

Yeah good stuff. Another lie? The Crusades paled to the tactics used to convert the native americans to Christianity. Didn't stop until the early 1900's when they were either locked up on reservations or all dead.


1) I condemn the actions of people claiming to be Christians and forced others to convert by force. I condemn the actions of those people who claimed to be Christians and used other means of violence for anyreason

2) The important part "Didn't stop until the early 1900s" but it DID stop. Islam is stuck in the middle ages

[shazeep]

And thus, all premises are revealed...unless you'd care to, T? :lol

[Timmy]

And thus, all premises are revealed...unless you'd care to, T? :lol

Be my guest. As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. Lol.

[shazeep]

Ah-meaning that people find what they seek, thereby revealing their true heart; their premises. This is used to divide us a countless number of ways. People are polarizable, might be another way to put it.

[shazeep]

Ps "Islam: a religion of lies" is simply a slur. It is an accusation, and we all know where those come from. Thus premises are revealed.

[Timmy]

Ah-meaning that people find what they seek, thereby revealing their true heart; their premises. This is used to divide us a countless number of ways. People are polarizable, might be another way to put it.

I see.

[shazeep]

:lol on a side note, I think I figgered out why I don't get any 2nd dates!

[Dordrecht]

A waste of time looking at this thread.
Nothing changed here.
I might check back in about 4 weeks or so.

[shazeep]

:lol well, be the change you seek. Change your mind, yes? You might examine why you would even want to view a thread titled by a slur, perhaps. Unfortunately, condemning others makes us feel superior. Don't we have anything better to do?

[Pressing-On]

Could you give us an example from this century? LOL!!!

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Oh. This is a GREAT argument. Just take the people who Jesus warned us about (false prophets) and some fanatical elements of fringe Pentecostalism (rejected by most Christians) and build your case. I'm convinced now. :rolleyes

:toofunny Thanks, Jason, for saving me the trouble of having to give a response. :highfive

[shazeep]

:lol and don't forget to ignore that radical Islam is rejected by virtually all Muslims...

[Pressing-On]

:lol and don't forget to ignore that radical Islam is rejected by virtually all Muslims...

The Pew polling shows that, aside from focusing on violence, the majority are still radicalized toward, Sharia Law. That would be 75% in Egypt alone.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-1.png

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-2.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

[shazeep]

Well, you characterize those living under Sharia as radicalized; why is this? I have lived among those submitting to Sharia, and found it very unobtrusive, Fox News reports notwithstanding. No one is forced to live under Sharia that I am aware of-even Muslim countries have civil courts. Yes, there might be consequences for this; one might be ostracized, etc., but the reports I see in the mainstream news are ridiculously exaggerated.

[Pressing-On]

Well, you characterize those living under Sharia as radicalized; why is this? I have lived among those submitting to Sharia, and found it very unobtrusive, Fox News reports notwithstanding. No one is forced to live under Sharia that I am aware of-even Muslim countries have civil courts. Yes, there might be consequences for this; one might be ostracized, etc., but the reports I see in the mainstream news are ridiculously exaggerated.

The true perspective is given here by Sam Harris when interviewed by Fareed Zakaria on radical Islam:

HARRIS: I'm telling you the only metric I have for that is I hear from people living in Pakistan, for instance, who say if a liberal like you can't even speak honestly about the link between ideology and violence, what hope is there for me?

I can't even tell my mother what I believe about God because I would be afraid of my own family or village killing me.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/11/02/fareed_zakaria_vs_sam_harris_on_radical_islam_isla m_has_been_spread_by_the_sword_for_over_1000_years .html

[shazeep]

Ok, well, true for him maybe, in his village. Not universal by any means. Why stay where you are unwelcome? Beautiful are the feet, baby. Surely you don't think one of your peers would suffer less if they decided to convert to Islam :lol

[shazeep]

Note that these stories always emanate from some inbred little backwater; just like the Christian ones.

[Pressing-On]

Ok, well, true for him maybe, in his village. Not universal by any means. Why stay where you are unwelcome? Beautiful are the feet, baby. Surely you don't think one of your peers would suffer less if they decided to convert to Islam :lol

Note that these stories always emanate from some inbred little backwater; just like the Christian ones.

I'll remind you of these posts when this thing comes to a full head, because it is coming.

[Pliny]

:lol and don't forget to ignore that radical Islam is rejected by virtually all Muslims...

Really? Where did this data come from? It's easy to make sweeping statements and quite another to back it up with data.

What is true is VIRTUALLY ALL TERRORISM is perpetrated by Muslims.

[Pliny]

Well, you characterize those living under Sharia as radicalized; why is this? I have lived among those submitting to Sharia, and found it very unobtrusive, Fox News reports notwithstanding. No one is forced to live under Sharia that I am aware of-even Muslim countries have civil courts. Yes, there might be consequences for this; one might be ostracized, etc., but the reports I see in the mainstream news are ridiculously exaggerated.

Once again NO data to substantiate your assertion.

Let's see about how "mainstream" Sharia is.

Women are only counted as half a person in court.
A woman can be raped but it requires at least 2 men to confirm the rape.
If a woman complains of rape but cannot produce 2 men to confirm the rape she can be killed for adultery.

I could go on but what's the point? If someone cannot see that as radical then no wonder they defend jihad.

[Pliny]

The Pew polling shows that, aside from focusing on violence, the majority are still radicalized toward, Sharia Law. That would be 75% in Egypt alone.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-1.png

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-2.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Excellent points.

[Pressing-On]

Swedish Police Release Extensive Report Detailing Control Of 55 ‘No-Go Zones’ By Muslim Criminal Gangs

Officers frequently face outright attacks when trying to enter the areas, which is a step up from the previous problem with attacks on mailmen, fire trucks, ambulances and similar services. Fire trucks and ambulances had to wait for police escort to enter the areas, but now the police themselves need protection.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/02/swedish-police-release-extensive-report-detailing-control-of-55-no-go-zones-by-muslim-criminal-gangs/

I can see a drug cartel taking over, i.e. Mexico, but when you do this in the name of religion, that's a totally different narrative. Neither is right, but don't do it in the name of religion.

[Timmy]

I can see a drug cartel taking over, i.e. Mexico, but when you do this in the name of religion, that's a totally different narrative. Neither is right, but don't do it in the name of religion.

Unless God really does give the order, you mean. Right? :)

[Pliny]

I can see a drug cartel taking over, i.e. Mexico, but when you do this in the name of religion, that's a totally different narrative. Neither is right, but don't do it in the name of religion.

Obviously these "facts" must be wrong because we have been told "virtually all Muslims" reject this "radicalism"...

The reporter must be some inbred backwater nincumpoop...





Yeah right.

Coming to a neighborhood here in the US sooner than later. :nod

[shazeep]

Really? Where did this data come from? It's easy to make sweeping statements and quite another to back it up with data.

What is true is VIRTUALLY ALL TERRORISM is perpetrated by Muslims.

Well; and you get to define terrorism, right? You know I could have you cringing with some examples closer to home. Yet one will see what they will see. My data is empirical; I have lived in many Muslim areas, even backwaters. It's propaganda, Pliny. Isolated, quite possibly incited, incidents chosen for their shock value, to sway your opinion and keep you divided. Are their horrible people parading as Muslim, yes. And if enough people repeat "Muslim" in the same breath as their remarks upon this base peering in of atrocity, the two must be connected, right?

It is an insult to the vast majority of peaceful, wonderful practicing Muslims that adhere to the Qur'an, and would have considered you a brother, were it not for the condemnation.

[shazeep]

Yet I'm not denying that the world is afire right now either, Pliny-just arguing who is really pulling the strings. Be mad at Muslims if you want, but they have been incited against us as we have been incited against them.

[shazeep]

Obviously these "facts" must be wrong because we have been told "virtually all Muslims" reject this "radicalism"...

The reporter must be some inbred backwater nincumpoop...





Yeah right.

Coming to a neighborhood here in the US sooner than later. :nod:lol gimme a break. There hasn't been a cop on patrol in Compton in 20 years prolly. And those guys don't pretend to be following any dogmas. You are fear-mongering now. Killer bees were coming, too.

[shazeep]

I'll remind you of these posts when this thing comes to a full head, because it is coming.
Actually, it comes every 80 years, since the industrial revolution, anyway. ?.it's how they milk us, and reduce the population at the same time, perhaps. I'm not trying to deny that many atrocities will be committed in Allah's Name.

[Pliny]

Well; and you get to define terrorism, right? You know I could have you cringing with some examples closer to home. Yet one will see what they will see. My data is empirical; I have lived in many Muslim areas, even backwaters. It's propaganda, Pliny. Isolated, quite possibly incited, incidents chosen for their shock value, to sway your opinion and keep you divided. Are their horrible people parading as Muslim, yes. And if enough people repeat "Muslim" in the same breath as their remarks upon this base peering in of atrocity, the two must be connected, right?

It is an insult to the vast majority of peaceful, wonderful practicing Muslims that adhere to the Qur'an, and would have considered you a brother, were it not for the condemnation.

Muslims are not "my brothers" unless you are speaking of humanity in general. As to the spiritual only those who have been born again are "my brothers and sisters".

Terrorism is self evident and does not need to be defined.
Hi-jacking airplanes and flying them into buildings is not workplace violence.
Planting bombs at a sporting event is not workplace violence.
Using a hatchet to attack police officers because of jihad is not workplace violence.
Decapitating a woman while screaming allahu akbar is not workplace violence.
Marching into a chow hall for jihad and shooting at unarmed fellow soldiers is not workplace violence.

And the list goes on and on.
And no you could not have me "cringing" with your examples. You obviously don't know me.
Your "data" being based upon "empirical" evidence means you have NO scientific data. You have your opinion and that is all. You are welcome to your opinion but not your own facts.

The "incidents" I quoted are not "propaganda" nor were they "incited". Neither were they "isolated". These are not "just people" these are MULTITUDES of Muslims perpetrating atrocities all over the world in the name of Islam. The unholy quran is as much a legal document as a religious document and Sharia is based upon that document. I have already pointed out about the subjugation of women and the atrocities perpetrated upon women in the name of Islam, after all allah knows best right?

[Pliny]

Yet I'm not denying that the world is afire right now either, Pliny-just arguing who is really pulling the strings. Be mad at Muslims if you want, but they have been incited against us as we have been incited against them.

This is quite an assertion that needs to be documented.
If you believe there is a conspiracy against Muslims then document it.
The documentation I see every day is Muslims murdering, pillaging, kidnapping children while laughing at their parents:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/01/world/africa/nigeria-boko-haram-denies-deal/index.html?eref=edition

And the list goes on and on and on.

You believe its a conspiracy fine. That's your opinion. Back up that opinion with facts if you can.


It is not Baptists, Methodists etc that have perpetrated these acts, they are Muslims.

[Pliny]

:lol gimme a break. There hasn't been a cop on patrol in Compton in 20 years prolly. And those guys don't pretend to be following any dogmas. You are fear-mongering now. Killer bees were coming, too.

Another unfounded assertion. More of your "empirical" evidence. :smack


You are entitled to your opinion but don't try passing your opinion off as facts. :thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

Well; and you get to define terrorism, right? You know I could have you cringing with some examples closer to home. Yet one will see what they will see. My data is empirical; I have lived in many Muslim areas, even backwaters. It's propaganda, Pliny. Isolated, quite possibly incited, incidents chosen for their shock value, to sway your opinion and keep you divided. Are their horrible people parading as Muslim, yes. And if enough people repeat "Muslim" in the same breath as their remarks upon this base peering in of atrocity, the two must be connected, right?

It is an insult to the vast majority of peaceful, wonderful practicing Muslims that adhere to the Qur'an, and would have considered you a brother, were it not for the condemnation.

Actually, it comes every 80 years, since the industrial revolution, anyway. ?.it's how they milk us, and reduce the population at the same time, perhaps. I'm not trying to deny that many atrocities will be committed in Allah's Name.

These two posts seem very contradictory, IMO.

[shazeep]

Many atrocities are also committed in God's Name, by people calling themselves Christian. Many are committed with your blessing, your money. They are documented, and available on the web-but of course they are not being shown to you, but to them. seek Max Keiser if you dare...

[shazeep]

Another unfounded assertion. More of your "empirical" evidence. :smack


You are entitled to your opinion but don't try passing your opinion off as facts. :thumbsup

ok, that evidence is not empirical; but I never said it was. So, I dare you to go to Compton :lol and that's a fact. You answer with an evasion?

[shazeep]

This is quite an assertion that needs to be documented.
If you believe there is a conspiracy against Muslims then document it.
The documentation I see every day is Muslims murdering, pillaging, kidnapping children while laughing at their parents:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/01/world/africa/nigeria-boko-haram-denies-deal/index.html?eref=edition

And the list goes on and on and on.

You believe its a conspiracy fine. That's your opinion. Back up that opinion with facts if you can.


It is not Baptists, Methodists etc that have perpetrated these acts, they are Muslims.

Wadr Pliny, it is an established fact that is being intentionally obscured from us. Explain to me why "Christians murdering" is an oxymoron, but "Muslims murdering" is not. It's not a conspiracy-I'm sure that you are at least vaguely aware that something like 96% of your media is controlled by 6 organizations-Billy Ray Cyrus "they have my daughter" is just the fluff.

And it is not the Baptists or Methodists because people busy eating and wiping their mouths-while condemning everyone else to hell, of course-simply don't make for many eyeballs on Fox News. I list, and could list, 'facts' all day, which are/will be ignored or justified. You have no problems with being seen as the world's largest arms dealer? (Nice commish on all those new F-35s to Israel, btw...oh ya, it was already your money! :lol )

And as to your list, you will find what you seek. Congratulations on swallowing the bait, which had to be dug up in Africa, very much. If you're so worried for Africans why not feed a few of them instead of sending all that thimerosal-laced vaccine to test out on them? Speaking generally of course.

Ok, and if you will clarify whether you want doc for "80 years" (Google "80 year cycle") or the mutually exclusive inciting of the nations to keep them divided and fighting each other (as if), I will provide. But understand that even tho this reality was once trumpeted in the news, the ptb have gotten smarter, and no longer reveal their motives so openly.

[shazeep]

Muslims are not "my brothers" unless you are speaking of humanity in general. As to the spiritual only those who have been born again are "my brothers and sisters".

Terrorism is self evident and does not need to be defined.
Hi-jacking airplanes and flying them into buildings is not workplace violence.
Planting bombs at a sporting event is not workplace violence.
Using a hatchet to attack police officers because of jihad is not workplace violence.
Decapitating a woman while screaming allahu akbar is not workplace violence.
Marching into a chow hall for jihad and shooting at unarmed fellow soldiers is not workplace violence.

And the list goes on and on.
And no you could not have me "cringing" with your examples. You obviously don't know me.
Your "data" being based upon "empirical" evidence means you have NO scientific data. You have your opinion and that is all. You are welcome to your opinion but not your own facts.

The "incidents" I quoted are not "propaganda" nor were they "incited". Neither were they "isolated". These are not "just people" these are MULTITUDES of Muslims perpetrating atrocities all over the world in the name of Islam. The unholy quran is as much a legal document as a religious document and Sharia is based upon that document. I have already pointed out about the subjugation of women and the atrocities perpetrated upon women in the name of Islam, after all allah knows best right?
Yes, and of course you also get to define 'born again,' which will involve the correct way to hold ones mouth when contemplating brotherly love.

Terrorism is self evident? What about financial terrorism? Funny you cite an example of planes flying into towers, that even most Americans now reject. Maybe Kennedy was wrong about the 'secret cabal,' too-you hope. There is no multitude of Muslims committing any atrocities, sorry-if you reject that a Christian believer may commit atrocities and still be a Christian, then it is nothing less than hypocrisy to suggest that the same might not be true for a Muslim. What yack! And the list goes on and on...gag. Let's ignore that American cops murder more people every day now than Boco Haram. You want video or what?

And wadr, you have no idea how those incidents may or may not have come about, and neither do I-but it's practically guaranteed to have been taken out of context and twisted to fit an agenda, if you got it from tv. No, guaranteed. I fail to understand why a seeker would accept the most obviously whacked propaganda, yet refuse to accept common sense, like that OBL would have loved to have taken credit for 9/11, if he had done it-but, tempted as he surely was, he declined? :lol

it is from contemplating these that the truth is found. I don't mean to say that that little snippet should convince you of some grand conspiracy, but I am suggesting that the truth must be sought, and, by definition, will not be brought to you whole by any non-vested interests.

[shazeep]

You might Google "Dylan Ratigan meltdown" if you haven't seen it yet, some clues there...

[Pliny]

ok, that evidence is not empirical; but I never said it was. So, I dare you to go to Compton :lol and that's a fact. You answer with an evasion?

LOL! I used to live out there. :happydance

[Pliny]

Wadr Pliny, it is an established fact that is being intentionally obscured from us. Explain to me why "Christians murdering" is an oxymoron, but "Muslims murdering" is not. It's not a conspiracy-I'm sure that you are at least vaguely aware that something like 96% of your media is controlled by 6 organizations-Billy Ray Cyrus "they have my daughter" is just the fluff.

And it is not the Baptists or Methodists because people busy eating and wiping their mouths-while condemning everyone else to hell, of course-simply don't make for many eyeballs on Fox News. I list, and could list, 'facts' all day, which are/will be ignored or justified. You have no problems with being seen as the world's largest arms dealer? (Nice commish on all those new F-35s to Israel, btw...oh ya, it was already your money! :lol )

And as to your list, you will find what you seek. Congratulations on swallowing the bait, which had to be dug up in Africa, very much. If you're so worried for Africans why not feed a few of them instead of sending all that thimerosal-laced vaccine to test out on them? Speaking generally of course.

Ok, and if you will clarify whether you want doc for "80 years" (Google "80 year cycle") or the mutually exclusive inciting of the nations to keep them divided and fighting each other (as if), I will provide. But understand that even tho this reality was once trumpeted in the news, the ptb have gotten smarter, and no longer reveal their motives so openly.

"Established fact"? All I have seen from you is opinion. NO evidence of any kind. You are entitled to your opinion. Have at it.

Christians do not murder. To be a Christian is to be like Christ and He said that His kingdom was not of this world therefore His followers do not fight.

Muslims on the other hand, multitudes of them, believe there are three options:
1) Convert to Islam, by force if necessary.
2) Have your head cut off.
3) Become a subjugated class of people. Like in Egypt where the Coptic Christians routinely have their daughters kidnapped and forced to convert.

Yeah Islam is so peaceful that it's okay to beat your wife, allah knows best right?
And I could go on and on but like previous posts you will just ignore the facts of the koran.

The rant concerning Baptists and Methodists is nothing more than claptrap. The idea of the US selling arms is nothing more than a straw man argument. Many nations sell arms to other nations, especially allied nations. Logically it makes logistics easier if you have to defend one another. Your using the same equipment making the logistics easier but that is just common sense.

Yes what you seek you will find. Except of course your conspiracy theory.

I will "google the 80 year cycle" since you cannot provide any other sliver of evidence for your theories.

[Pliny]

Yes, and of course you also get to define 'born again,' which will involve the correct way to hold ones mouth when contemplating brotherly love.

Terrorism is self evident? What about financial terrorism? Funny you cite an example of planes flying into towers, that even most Americans now reject. Maybe Kennedy was wrong about the 'secret cabal,' too-you hope. There is no multitude of Muslims committing any atrocities, sorry-if you reject that a Christian believer may commit atrocities and still be a Christian, then it is nothing less than hypocrisy to suggest that the same might not be true for a Muslim. What yack! And the list goes on and on...gag. Let's ignore that American cops murder more people every day now than Boco Haram. You want video or what?

And wadr, you have no idea how those incidents may or may not have come about, and neither do I-but it's practically guaranteed to have been taken out of context and twisted to fit an agenda, if you got it from tv. No, guaranteed. I fail to understand why a seeker would accept the most obviously whacked propaganda, yet refuse to accept common sense, like that OBL would have loved to have taken credit for 9/11, if he had done it-but, tempted as he surely was, he declined? :lol

it is from contemplating these that the truth is found. I don't mean to say that that little snippet should convince you of some grand conspiracy, but I am suggesting that the truth must be sought, and, by definition, will not be brought to you whole by any non-vested interests.

The Bible gets to define "born again". And it has nothing to do with contemplating brotherly love.

You continuously make unfounded statements like "most Americans now reject [airplanes flying into buildings]. Really? Where did this "evidence" come from? What survey states "most Americans reject" this? I have never seen it or heard it. I don't know a single person who rejects this. So just more unfounded speculation.

As to your comments that there is "no multitude of Muslims committing atrocities" then you are hopeless. Multitudes of facts have been documented on this thread and you prefer to stick your head in the ground. No problem. You have a right to be wrong. You have a right to your opinion. You have a right to ignore facts.

Yes I would like you to document where police are "murdering" more people than Boko Haram. You do know what murder is i hope?

1.
Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder) and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder?s=t

BTW This is called documentation...

Oh yes and let's not forget your typical unfounded speculation about "financial" terrorism. Here is some advice: stay away from the kool-aid!

OH and BTW I don't have a TV and don't watch it so your premise is flawed. I get my information from research. Again if you believe there is a conspiracy document your findings others it is nothing more than a straw man at best.

[shazeep]

you wish. did DRatigan also come across as complete gibberish to you? And "We have arms because they have arms; who needs God to defend us?" is an understandable reply-go ye, and pledge allegiance then.

And the question still remains, I notice, why it is not hypocrisy to condemn Muslims, but anyone who pastes "Christian" on their jewelry gets a free pass. Rhetoric is still persuasive tho, huh-even if it avoids some uncomfortable truth. Ok. Pentecostalism is so peaceful that it's ok to sleep with your daughter...want some "evidence" for that? I didn't think so.

[Pliny]

You might Google "Dylan Ratigan meltdown" if you haven't seen it yet, some clues there...

Two things I will look into.
1) 80 day cycle
2) Dylan Ratigan meltdown

[Pliny]

OK I quickly looked up "Dylan Ratigan meltdown" and found a man declaring the main issue as being the financial turmoil and the trillions being pulled out of the country.

On this I agree.

The government has overspent by trillions. There ARE trillions in unfunded liabilities. At some point in time the house of cards will come crashing down. When this happens it will be worse, in my opinion, than in the Great Depression.

This does not in any way have anything to do with multitudes of Islamic terrorists murdering, kidnapping and otherwise destroying communities they are in. Wherever Islam has gone Sharia becomes a reality in one form or another.

[shazeep]

I have lived around Muslims forever, and have yet to be proselytizes even once. I am on an iPad, and don't know how to use it, otherwise I would just provide the links for you-but they are not hard to find. I can say with confidence that these 'conspiracy theories,' including the one divulged by JFK-oh, but he was prolly just another nut, too, right-are not my own, but are widely held. But hey, just wrap Ol' Glory around you a bit tighter, maybe stick the corners in your ears...I did. I don't even blame you. The machine is powerful.

[shazeep]

OK I quickly looked up "Dylan Ratigan meltdown" and found a man declaring the main issue as being the financial turmoil and the trillions being pulled out of the country.

On this I agree.

The government has overspent by trillions. There ARE trillions in unfunded liabilities. At some point in time the house of cards will come crashing down. When this happens it will be worse, in my opinion, than in the Great Depression.

This does not in any way have anything to do with multitudes of Islamic terrorists murdering, kidnapping and otherwise destroying communities they are in. Wherever Islam has gone Sharia becomes a reality in one form or another.no, this is about the hypocrisy intrinsic in an American Christian's uttering (muttering) "Muslim terrorists" with glazed eyes, Pliny-I know you to be a genuine seeker who loves God; we are just, all of us, deceived in various ways.

[shazeep]

Ok, and I have no idea how to migrate it here, but I just googled "Americans 911 official version" which gives pages of interesting hits. Never mind conspiracy, Pliny-paying AIG off at 100cents on the dollar should tell you all you need to know! Max Keiser is also informative, for US; although RT is just another prop channel where Russia is concerned. Larry King has really blossomed there...gee, wonder why they aren't available on cable anymore, hmm...

[shazeep]

OK I quickly looked up "Dylan Ratigan meltdown" and found a man declaring the main issue as being the financial turmoil and the trillions being pulled out of the country.

On this I agree.

The government has overspent by trillions. There ARE trillions in unfunded liabilities. At some point in time the house of cards will come crashing down. When this happens it will be worse, in my opinion, than in the Great Depression.

This does not in any way have anything to do with multitudes of Islamic terrorists murdering, kidnapping and otherwise destroying communities they are in. Wherever Islam has gone Sharia becomes a reality in one form or another. personally, I am more worried about killer bees, wadr.

[shazeep]

Google:
"911:who ordered the Air Force stand-down?

[shazeep]

"Washington, London, and Vatican obelisks" is interesting...you are chattel, and these are your masters, if you vote and pay taxes anyway. They even have a flag, common only to themselves.

[Praxeas]

:lol and don't forget to ignore that radical Islam is rejected by virtually all Muslims...
You mean by virtually all NON radical Muslims

[Praxeas]

personally, I am more worried about killer bees, wadr.
That's sad.

[Praxeas]

Google:
"911:who ordered the Air Force stand-down?
Google it and it must be true because you googled it and found websites that regurgitates the same stuff

What was the air force gonna do? Shoot every commercial air plane down?

Nobody really knew anything had happened until the first air liner hit the tower. It's transponder was off so we did not know where it was at.

Nobody knew how many Jets had been hijacked at first.

Lastly the whole issue of them standing down was not true. Several Jets were scrambled, but they were scrambled late because the FAA did not properly notify them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_att acks

[shazeep]

Well, I don't know, but I'm finding the official video of the first plane hitting (right after it's left wing goes behind a building in the near distance) to be compelling...seen that one yet? Rather sloppy patch job there lol. And ok I'm supposed to buy that some little transponder being turned off rendered the plane invisible to the world's greatest Air Force? C'mon, Prax, you wanna hear it from a horse's mouth? I got USAF generals crying foul, too...

[shazeep]

You mean by virtually all NON radical Muslims

Ok, yes-those billion+ souls.

[Praxeas]

Well, I don't know, but I'm finding the official video of the first plane hitting (right after it's left wing goes behind a building in the near distance) to be compelling...seen that one yet? Rather sloppy patch job there lol. And ok I'm supposed to buy that some little transponder being turned off rendered the plane invisible to the world's greatest Air Force? C'mon, Prax, you wanna hear it from a horse's mouth? I got USAF generals crying foul, too...
Compelling of what?

You didn't read what I wrote. Yes Transponders make it easier to see planes, ok and Yes the Air force can see plans on radar...but what you are missing is WHICH ONES?

There are Hundreds of commercial jets in the sky at any given moment

The other part you ignored is that the FAA did NOT contact them soon enough

The last part you ignored is the Air force DID scramble jets.

you avoided all three of those facts

[shazeep]

That's sad.

Ha, what's sad to me is that like 2000 AmVets have committed suicide in the last year, but we're all plexing on "terrorists" and "Ebola;" this week anyway...and of course I cannot recommend blindly accepting anything one googles, that is kind of unfair. Hits can be determined for their veracity. You have MIT profs calling the U.S. the world's greatest terrorist organization. I didn't make that up. Let's see...cops have killed more people in the last year than Ebola has killed in 30 years...

Sad maybe; but I fear God, not some imaginary, engineered enemy. I'm not even meaning to be at odds with anyone here, or asking you to think like me, lol-i know I'm off-so please see this as an invitation to look past your preconceptions, no more.

[Praxeas]

Ha, what's sad to me is that like 2000 AmVets have committed suicide in the last year, ..
That has nothing to do with the conspiracy theory stuff you raised and my refutations you ignored to respond to

That's not even "changing the topic". That's Obfuscation.

[shazeep]

Yes, I see that we are talking at each other. That is surely a chief aim with the best propaganda-pick a sore point, stir up and divide. I can't discredit any of the links of atrocities posted here, but I can discredit anyone committing them while imagining that they are following Islam. And, I think it depends upon where one focuses on the food chain, and maybe I'm just imagining that the 1% are manipulating things, and hiding...everything, lol...

[shazeep]

"Kurdish female fighters take the fight to Isis" don't worry, Pliny, the women will save you :lol apparently violently apostate Muslims are terrified of death by female :D

[Praxeas]

Yes, I see that we are talking at each other. That is surely a chief aim with the best propaganda-pick a sore point, stir up and divide. I can't discredit any of the links of atrocities posted here, but I can discredit anyone committing them while imagining that they are following Islam. And, I think it depends upon where one focuses on the food chain, and maybe I'm just imagining that the 1% are manipulating things, and hiding...everything, lol...
You were the one that brought up 9/11 and when I challenged your conspiracy driven narrative you changed the topic instead of dealing with what I posted

[Pliny]

"Kurdish female fighters take the fight to Isis" don't worry, Pliny, the women will save you :lol apparently violently apostate Muslims are terrified of death by female :D

Silly post. Perhaps you cower behind females and are projecting your own fears upon others. :thumbsup

[shazeep]

Well, my apologies; I was just not anxious to rehash 911. I'll see if I can respond to your post with anything meaningfulGoogle it and it must be true because you googled it and found websites that regurgitates the same stuff

What was the air force gonna do? Shoot every commercial air plane down?

Nobody really knew anything had happened until the first air liner hit the tower. It's transponder was off so we did not know where it was at.

Nobody knew how many Jets had been hijacked at first.

Lastly the whole issue of them standing down was not true. Several Jets were scrambled, but they were scrambled late because the FAA did not properly notify them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_att acks
Ok, and I can't. Any of my answers to this are just potshots, more or less. All I can say is that I don't for a second buy that turning a plane transponder off renders that plane invisible to our Air Force. In fact, my understanding is that doing this on a commercial airliner actually red flags the plane, and highlights it. The whole story reeks to me.

[shazeep]

Silly post. Perhaps you cower behind females and are projecting your own fears upon others. :thumbsup

Ha, that must be it. Don't know about silly, tho-apparently these women have caused rebel posts to be abandoned, etc. simply because these guys have it in their head that death by female = a trip to hell. Go figure.

[shazeep]

That's sad.
Ok, and since that seems like a flip answer (we'll see in a year),I'll say that if I were to pick something to worry about-which I am not interested in doing-it would by definition be something that is not being reported to us by the mainstream news; financial terrorism, Fukushima, whatever.

[Pliny]

Well, my apologies; I was just not anxious to rehash 911. I'll see if I can respond to your post with anything meaningful
Ok, and I can't. Any of my answers to this are just potshots, more or less. All I can say is that I don't for a second buy that turning a plane transponder off renders that plane invisible to our Air Force. In fact, my understanding is that doing this on a commercial airliner actually red flags the plane, and highlights it. The whole story reeks to me.

No turning a transponder off does NOT make a plane invisible. They are devices that help in collision avoidance. If that was all that was needed to make an airplane invisible we have wasted a ton of money on stealth technology.

Airplanes use a mode of IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) that provides altitude information, at least used to in the Mode C operation. Mode 3 gives their position. It was a long time ago when I worked in Avionics.

Transponders came out of the IFF technology to help ATC (Air Traffic Control). Radar provides range information but not altitude information. Therefore, transponders provide this data and when a code is assigned to a particular aircraft the transponder sends that code and all relevant data to ATC. The ATC can then quickly identify each aircraft on its screen and know where it is in range and altitude. This is a tremendous help with crowded skies making take offs and landings more efficient and safe.

By turning off the transponder there is still a blip on the screen. It's just a UFO (no pun intended). Like I said, if that was all there was to making a plane invisible then we wasted a lot of money on stealth!

Turning the transponder off would "red flag" the aircraft but only from a maintenance standpoint. This may have now changed due to the circumstances surrounding the 911 event.

That's how I would see it. Whether it was turned off or not I have no idea.

Ha, that must be it. Don't know about silly, tho-apparently these women have caused rebel posts to be abandoned, etc. simply because these guys have it in their head that death by female = a trip to hell. Go figure.

That's funny!!! :happydance

[Praxeas]

Well, my apologies; I was just not anxious to rehash 911. I'll see if I can respond to your post with anything meaningful
Ok, and I can't. Any of my answers to this are just potshots, more or less. All I can say is that I don't for a second buy that turning a plane transponder off renders that plane invisible to our Air Force.
You didn't read what I said either time

Please read it this time

There are HUNDREDS of planes in the sky at any time. The Air force did not know at first which planes were hijacked. You can tell the Air force "they hijacked flight 11" but a radar does not tell you which plane is flight 11

Transponders would have helped. Nobody said they were invisible. You clearly did not read anything I wrote

Do you understand the above? Radar pings anything in the sky that is moving. Also Radars are limited . That is why Air planes get pass off to other radar tracking systems.

[Praxeas]

Turning the transponder off would "red flag" the aircraft but only from a maintenance standpoint. This may have now changed due to the circumstances surrounding the 911 event.

That's how I would see it. Whether it was turned off or not I have no idea.



That's funny!!! :happydance
Im not sure it was changed. They seemed to have had similar problems with that Taiwan flight that went down

[Praxeas]

Ok, and since that seems like a flip answer (we'll see in a year),I'll say that if I were to pick something to worry about-which I am not interested in doing-it would by definition be something that is not being reported to us by the mainstream news; financial terrorism, Fukushima, whatever.
Worry about conspiracy theories? Worry about Killer bees more than a Nuclear melt down?

[shazeep]

Well, that post would elevate those above killer bees to me, Prax; if there were anything to elevate. as to the rest, the 911 stuff, I'm personally confident that the official version is whacked if for no other reason than that I'm at a loss to find an official version of anything that is not! :lol but the AF conducting east coast-wide war games while unable to locate a plane, the people warned not to fly that day, the timing of the insurance dbl-down, and the statements of the firemen at the scene, and...on and on, the impossibility of a tower melting or collapsing from a jet (combined with the obvious, documentable lie about the ptb never foreseeing the scenario)...just gets overwhelming to me after a point.

But really, it doesn't matter anymore, except to illuminate the current truth, imo. Wow, iPads are from hell! :lol

[shazeep]

Ok and no one who has seen "confessions of an economic hitman" or watched Max Keiser could claim that financial terrorism is a conspiracy theory. We mostly see what it is we want to see, I think. I'm still no different lol

[Praxeas]

Well, that post would elevate those above killer bees to me, Prax; if there were anything to elevate. as to the rest, the 911 stuff, I'm personally confident that the official version is whacked if for no other reason than that I'm at a loss to find an official version of anything that is not! :lol but the AF conducting east coast-wide war games while unable to locate a plane, the people warned not to fly that day, the timing of the insurance dbl-down, and the statements of the firemen at the scene, and...on and on, the impossibility of a tower melting or collapsing from a jet (combined with the obvious, documentable lie about the ptb never foreseeing the scenario)...just gets overwhelming to me after a point.

But really, it doesn't matter anymore, except to illuminate the current truth, imo. Wow, iPads are from hell! :lol
The Air Force was able to locate some of the planes.

Again you are ignoring facts. There are Hundreds of Air craft in the sky at any given time...radar simply does not show which one has been hijacked

that's like believing a Cop on the side of the road with a radar gun can tell what you had for lunch just by pointing it at your car.

Ok? Ive said that several times. The problem is nobody really knew what was up for a good while.

Nobody knew how many were hijacked at first. Nobody knew which of the 100s if planes in the sky had been hijacked

Radars are limited and there are hundreds of miles of Eastern coast line. Having war games going on means nothing.

Also what people were warned not to fly? That is a meaningless statement

What insurance double down?

It's not impossible for the building to collapse. It's been proven already

Id give you the proof but I have a feeling you just aren't going to read anything, preferring to believe your conspiracy narrative no matter what

I saw an experiment with an I beam and jet fuel burning. the i beam got so hot it lost it's integrity to stay in an I shape. It bent in half.

On the News a tanker over turned on a free way overpass and burned. The free way over pass eventually collapsed from the heat damage to the rebar.

[shazeep]

Ok, well, for what it's worth-and since I don't know how to migrate them here on this thing, sorry-all of my assertions are just a click away. Some I am more convinced of than others, but really the whodunnit is irrelevant now, except to show who's still doing it. I don't see the point of intentionally dividing along these lines too.

[Praxeas]

Ok, well, for what it's worth-and since I don't know how to migrate them here on this thing, sorry-all of my assertions are just a click away. Some I am more convinced of than others, but really the whodunnit is irrelevant now, except to show who's still doing it. I don't see the point of intentionally dividing along these lines too.
Who is still doing it are men.

[shazeep]

Yup-there are surely a majority of people even in gov that seek good as they understand it.

[Esaias]

The Air Force was able to locate some of the planes.

Again you are ignoring facts. There are Hundreds of Air craft in the sky at any given time...radar simply does not show which one has been hijacked

that's like believing a Cop on the side of the road with a radar gun can tell what you had for lunch just by pointing it at your car.

Ok? Ive said that several times. The problem is nobody really knew what was up for a good while.

Nobody knew how many were hijacked at first. Nobody knew which of the 100s if planes in the sky had been hijacked

Radars are limited and there are hundreds of miles of Eastern coast line. Having war games going on means nothing.

Also what people were warned not to fly? That is a meaningless statement

What insurance double down?

It's not impossible for the building to collapse. It's been proven already

Id give you the proof but I have a feeling you just aren't going to read anything, preferring to believe your conspiracy narrative no matter what

I saw an experiment with an I beam and jet fuel burning. the i beam got so hot it lost it's integrity to stay in an I shape. It bent in half.

On the News a tanker over turned on a free way overpass and burned. The free way over pass eventually collapsed from the heat damage to the rebar.

Bringing up the collapsed bridge as proof that oxygen-starved kerosene can pulverize into dust a 110 story skyscraper only shows you really didn't research either event.

Read this : http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t6584.html

[Praxeas]

Bringing up the collapsed bridge as proof that oxygen-starved kerosene can pulverize into dust a 110 story skyscraper only shows you really didn't research either event.

Read this : http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t6584.html
No..it would not pulverize into dust anything. It would weaken the support that holds the structure up.

All you needed to do was weaken the integrity of the i beams. The load above those I beams would do the rest just as weakening the rebar in the concrete of the over pass had become weak the weight of the concrete did the rest

Nobody said the over pass was made of steel. Nobody said the steel melted. If you read what I posted and research the evidence, the heat weakened the metal so that it began to bend. It could no longer support the load it was intended to support. It did not have to melt at all

[Pliny]

Those "moderate Muslims" again:

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistani police say they have arrested up to 40 people in connection with the killing of a Christian couple in Punjab province who were beaten, then pushed into a burning kiln after being accused of desecrating the Quran.

Local police officials said a mob from neighboring villages formed Tuesday after a local mullah declared the couple were guilty of blasphemy.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/05/world/asia/pakistan-couple-slain/index.html?hpt=hp_c2



Muslims are obligated to vote based upon how their community tells them to vote. How moderate!

Background: The District of Columbia Muslim Caucus was formed in 2008, during the historic election of President Barack Obama. As an organization, it represents the estimated 20% of DC residents who are Muslim or live in a household together with a Muslim. In the past six years, the DC Muslim Caucus has endorsed scores of winning District candidates, raised thousands of dollars and recruited dozens of volunteers for its endorsed candidates, and mobilized thousands of votes in support of candidates. According to Islamic tenets, Muslims participating in democratic elections are obligated to vote as a bloc based upon a consensus of the Muslim community.
http://www.dcmuslimcaucus.org/election-press-release/

[shazeep]

Well then, Pliny, don't become a Muslim! :lol

[Pliny]

Well then, Pliny, don't become a Muslim! :lol

Don't worry... I would never do that! :thumbsup

[Walks_in_islam]

1) I condemn the actions of people claiming to be Christians and forced others to convert by force. I condemn the actions of those people who claimed to be Christians and used other means of violence for anyreason

2) The important part "Didn't stop until the early 1900s" but it DID stop. Islam is stuck in the middle ages

No Prax. It didn't stop until they were all dead or moved. Why continue after that?

Then Christian expansion moved to other places. Africa, India, South Asia - anywhere in the world that had indigenous people who were ripe for exploitation and "conversion".

Still continues today. Here and there. When the Christians get the upper hand, which thankfully and today is rarely right?

After all we should not forget that the first amendment was written to protect America from Christian rule, not written by Christians to protect themselves.

The Anti-balaka are Christian and animist militias formed in the Central African Republic after the rise to power of Michel Djotodia in 2013.
As many Christians had sedentary lifestyles and many Muslims were nomadic, claims to the land were yet another dimension of the tensions. In November 2013, the UN warned the country was at risk of spiraling into genocide, was "descending into complete chaos". and France described the country as "...on the verge of genocide". On 2 December, anti-balaka militiamen are suspected to have killed 12 people, including children, and wounded 30 others in an attack on the mostly Muslim Fula ethnic group in Boali, according to the government. This was amidst the Central African Republic conflict under the Djotodia administration.

Early 2014 marked a turning point; hardened by war and massacres, the anti-balaka committed multiple atrocities. In 2014, Amnesty International reported several massacres committed by anti-balaka against Muslim civilians, forcing thousands of Muslims to flee the country.


The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), a rebel group that seeks the secession of Tripura, North-East India, from the country, has been described as Christian terrorists engaging in terrorist violence motivated by their Christian beliefs. The NLFT includes in its aims the forced conversion of all tribespeople in Tripura to Christianity. The NLFT is listed as a terrorist organization in the Prevention of Terrorism Act, 2002. The state government contends that the Baptist Church of Tripura supplies arms and gives financial support to the NLFT.[25][26][27] Reports from the state government and Indian media describe activities such as the acquisition by the NLFT of explosives through the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, and threats of killing Hindus celebrating religious festivals. Over 20 Hindus in Tripura were reported to have been killed by the NLFT from 1999 to 2001 for resisting forced conversion to Christianity. According to Hindus in the area, there have also been forced conversions of tribal villagers to Christianity by armed NLFT militants. These forcible conversions, sometimes including the use of "rape as a means of intimidation", have also been noted by academics outside of India.[30] In 2000, the NLFT broke into a temple and gunned down a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali.


Maronite Christian militias perpetrated the Karantina and Tel al-Zaatar massacres of Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims during Lebanon's 1975–1990 civil war. The 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacre, which targeted unarmed Palestinian refugees for rape and murder, was considered to be genocide by the United Nations General Assembly. A British photographer present during the incident said that "People who committed the acts of murder that I saw that day were wearing crucifixions and were calling themselves Christians." After the end of the civil war, Christian militias refused to disband, concentrating in the Israeli-occupied south of the country, where they terrorized Muslim and Druze villages and forcefully recruited men and boys from those communities into their groups


The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult and guerrilla army, was engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in 2005. It has been accused of using child soldiers and of committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, and using forced child labourers as soldiers, porters, and sex slaves.[65] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism, it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle

Wanna dig some more into this century?

[Praxeas]

Yeah good stuff. Another lie? The Crusades paled to the tactics used to convert the native americans to Christianity. Didn't stop until the early 1900's when they were either locked up on reservations or all dead.



1) I condemn the actions of people claiming to be Christians and forced others to convert by force. I condemn the actions of those people who claimed to be Christians and used other means of violence for anyreason

2) The important part "Didn't stop until the early 1900s" but it DID stop. Islam is stuck in the middle ages

No Prax. It didn't stop until they were all dead or moved. Why continue after that?


I was quoting you. You can't seriously compare anything Christians do today with what Muslims are doing today all over the world.

That's a joke. Condemn them as I just condemned Christians who do bad stuff and you'll get better feed back.

You never actually did you condemn any of the acts I asked about. Instead you do the "you too" fallacy

Right? See my post again, in no uncertain terms I said explicitly I CONDEMN them

Do you? Do you condemn ISIS?

Do you condemn invading towns, killing all the men and enslaving the women, even making them their brides?

Do you condemn forced conversions?

Do you condemn forcing Christians to pay a special tax?

Do you condemn what happened in Canada recently? Do you condemn the massacre at a Jewish synagogue in Israel just recently?

I do.

[Praxeas]

When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?

No. Read my statements again. It was not a blanket statement. I never said there isn't a Muslim anywhere that will do it

But more specifically do YOU condemn what ISIS is doing to Christians, Muslims and others?

Do you condemn the actions recently in Canada by two claiming to be Muslims?

Yea, I noticed that was absent from his page of quotes as well. I thought it was strange or maybe an oversight. Definetely nice to see his page of quotes though :)

My point...WII never condemned those things I mentioned. Instead he went "Oh yeah? What about these?"

And that goes back to what I said before. Moderate Muslims won't commit to condemning certain actions or groups when asked to.

Jfrog. It's not an oversight. It's a predictable pattern. As can be seen, several times we christians have condemned certain things attributed to Christians but what about Muslims?

[Walks_in_islam]

I was quoting you. You can't seriously compare anything Christians do today with what Muslims are doing today all over the world.

That's a joke. Condemn them as I just condemned Christians who do bad stuff and you'll get better feed back.

You never actually did you condemn any of the acts I asked about. Instead you do the "you too" fallacy

Right? See my post again, in no uncertain terms I said explicitly I CONDEMN them

Do you? Do you condemn ISIS?

Do you condemn invading towns, killing all the men and enslaving the women, even making them their brides?

Do you condemn forced conversions?

Do you condemn forcing Christians to pay a special tax?

Do you condemn what happened in Canada recently? Do you condemn the massacre at a Jewish synagogue in Israel just recently?

I do.

Me? I've stated my views enough times. You don't get it.

1. I want ISIS nuked. Enough already.
2. I want terrorists to receive the death penalty, and be executed publicly, as they are here in the KSA. Swiftly. As in - take a life in late spring - you should be looking up at the roots of daisies by early summer.
3. This applies to: The boston bomber, the texas base shooter, the terrorists who attacked the synagogue, the Canada shooter, and yeah - every street gangster who shoots up American streets and bus stop
4. Start a hate website in the US selling that terrorist cr-p? Get out. Put 'em on a plane and put 'em with their hopefully soon nuked buddies. No need to land. Just drop em.

Hate speech in the name of religion should not be tolerated. Not Christian and not Islamic.

This is what I believe should happen to terrorists. Here - and there. Define terrorism as deviant thinking and execute the people who apply it that way. You coddle these people in the US. Know this - they aren't coddled and tolerated here.


Published Monday, September 22, 2014


Four Saudi men have been sentenced to death for their role in one of the kingdom's "bloodiest terror cells," official SPA news agency reported.

The agency said late Sunday that a special criminal court in Riyadh jailed "as many as 20" others for between two and 23 years for a variety of crimes.

These included embracing "deviant" thinking contrary to the Quran.

The defendants were also convicted of fighting abroad and purchasing five tons of aluminium nitrate -- which can be used to make explosives.

They were also found guilty of booby-trapping vehicles to kill policemen, carrying out suicide bombings inside the country, planning to explode oil pipelines and killing foreigners as well as Islamic religious leaders, SPA said.

The convicted were given 30 days to appeal the verdicts.

SPA did not say when the offenses occurred but the sentences are the latest in a series since authorities in 2011 established specialized courts to try Saudis and foreigners accused of belonging to al-Qaeda or involvement in deadly attacks in the kingdom from 2003-2006.

PS: The mentioned appeal will take about one day. So don't complain about their "civil rights" after their little nappy terrorist heads are lopped off by new years day.

Any more questions Prax? Your fellow Christians here or in Indonesia or in Malaysia don't pay any taxes. Ancient history. Ask someone else about that. The only taxes we pay are to support YOU back home, not any local government. So we, all of us, would just prefer that you say thank you and move on with that silly tax thing.

[Walks_in_islam]

LOL! Typical of Mulism apologists. Never deal with the FACTS. Facts like lying is enshrined in the unholy quran and is encouraged by their perverted profit, you know the profit that married a 6 year old little girl...

Please note this is from a pro-Islamic site.

Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”

“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” [3]

[3]. Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her’. For Muhsin Khan’s translation, see this link and go down to reports listed as Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236.
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm


They also believe:
"the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the perfect model of Islamic teachings whose example shall forever be binding on every Muslim to follow."


So according to this philosophy ALL Muslims should marry 6 year old little girls. How disgusting!!!

And as is typical the Muslim apologists will never deal directly with the truth. The truth that their profit was a pervert for example or the fact that lying is encouraged by their unholy book. The fact that some "Christians" lie is used to justify their own lying. The fact is Christians do NOT condone lying nor does the Bible. Muslims not only condone lying their unholy book prescribes it.

Typical of you. Except you forgot to pull the beam out of your own eye. So Mohammed brought a 9-yr-old wife into his household over 1400 years ago? Here are your own ages of consent by state, only 150 years ago.

Alabama 10
Alaska -
Arizona 12
Arkansas 10
California 10
Colorado 10
Connecticut 10
District of Columbia 12
Delaware 7
Florida 10
Georgia 10
Hawaii - -
Idaho 10
Illinois 10
Indiana 12
Iowa 10
Kansas 10
Kentucky 12
Louisiana 12
Maine 10
Maryland 10
Massachusetts 10
Michigan 10
Minnesota 10
Mississippi 10
Missouri 12
Montana 10
Nebraska 10
Nevada 12
New Hampshire 10
New Jersey 10
New Mexico 10
New York 10
North Carolina 10
North Dakota 10
Ohio 10
Oklahoma - - 16
Oregon 10
Pennsylvania 10
Rhode Island 10
South Carolina 10
South Dakota 10
Tennessee 10
Texas 10
Utah 10
Vermont 10
Virginia 12
Washington 12
West Virginia 12
Wisconsin 10
Wyoming 10

Delaware stands out. How come? I know I know. Here's why. To hold office in Delaware, you had to be a religious man.

Article 22 shown below is a very strict religious test-oath. Not only did you have to be a Christian, you had to believe in the Trinity and the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

"Every person who shall be chosen a member of either House, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit: I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration".

Reworded:

I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration and this gives me and my white protestant peers the full right to be perverts and violate 7-yr-old girls".

Gotta be specially religious to hold office in Delaware in the good old US of A huh? How come you don't address that first, then go back 1400 years when God knows what was practiced in society and bring that up. You think age of marriage or consent is religious or traditional? Speak up.

[shazeep]

:lol zing!

[Praxeas]

Any more questions Prax? Your fellow Christians here or in Indonesia or in Malaysia don't pay any taxes. Ancient history. Ask someone else about that. The only taxes we pay are to support YOU back home, not any local government. So we, all of us, would just prefer that you say thank you and move on with that silly tax thing.
Yes but you did not state that you condemn certain acts I mentioned. All you said was in some certain location Christians don't pay a tax

Also why did you say "we"? You aren't a Christian are you?

Also do you condemn invading a town, killing the men and taking slaves of the women and girls and becoming brides to Muslims?

[Walks_in_islam]

Yes but you did not state that you condemn certain acts I mentioned. All you said was in some certain location Christians don't pay a tax

Also why did you say "we"? You aren't a Christian are you?

Also do you condemn invading a town, killing the men and taking slaves of the women and girls and becoming brides to Muslims?

WE are American and WE all pay the same taxes. WE would not accept a religious-based tax. None of us.

On the issue of invading and killing:

See previous post. I don't believe that encouraging or supporting killing and forcing religion is acceptable, much less invading and killing.

[Walks_in_islam]

:lol zing!

Took awhile to rescue the Delaware girls out of the grubby hands of the perverted church.

1920's or so.

Can't blame those sinful mackerel-smacking catholics on that one this time. Forbidden for a catholic to hold office back in the day. "Convert or die" was "convert or stay out of the political process". Amazing how the second amendment levels things out when you aren't indigenous or a "person of color" huh.

I idly wonder why so many people, generations of them, who professed their faith in Jesus when they took office in that state never got that changed (since it's such a perverted practice I would think that might be a priority). It sure is a priority today.

Perhaps had some guidance should been included in the bible?

Irony: Using the principles of the feminists (atheists) who got ages of consent raised and set as a comparison tool for "my religion is better than yours".

That's really, really funny.

[Esaias]

Typical of you. Except you forgot to pull the beam out of your own eye. So Mohammed brought a 9-yr-old wife into his household over 1400 years ago? Here are your own ages of consent by state, only 150 years ago.

Alabama 10
Alaska -
Arizona 12
Arkansas 10
California 10
Colorado 10
Connecticut 10
District of Columbia 12
Delaware 7
Florida 10
Georgia 10
Hawaii - -
Idaho 10
Illinois 10
Indiana 12
Iowa 10
Kansas 10
Kentucky 12
Louisiana 12
Maine 10
Maryland 10
Massachusetts 10
Michigan 10
Minnesota 10
Mississippi 10
Missouri 12
Montana 10
Nebraska 10
Nevada 12
New Hampshire 10
New Jersey 10
New Mexico 10
New York 10
North Carolina 10
North Dakota 10
Ohio 10
Oklahoma - - 16
Oregon 10
Pennsylvania 10
Rhode Island 10
South Carolina 10
South Dakota 10
Tennessee 10
Texas 10
Utah 10
Vermont 10
Virginia 12
Washington 12
West Virginia 12
Wisconsin 10
Wyoming 10

Delaware stands out. How come? I know I know. Here's why. To hold office in Delaware, you had to be a religious man.

Article 22 shown below is a very strict religious test-oath. Not only did you have to be a Christian, you had to believe in the Trinity and the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

"Every person who shall be chosen a member of either House, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit: I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration".

Reworded:

I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration and this gives me and my white protestant peers the full right to be perverts and violate 7-yr-old girls".

Gotta be specially religious to hold office in Delaware in the good old US of A huh? How come you don't address that first, then go back 1400 years when God knows what was practiced in society and bring that up. You think age of marriage or consent is religious or traditional? Speak up.

Your data seems incorrect.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IBQ9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=texas+age+of+consent+1864&source=bl&ots=COrzacwoGz&sig=EHE32jkcJCCj2NRYqsRfQJOXWwc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IDpwVOCzGMaegwSn24CoCw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwCTgK

[Pliny]

WE are American and WE all pay the same taxes. WE would not accept a religious-based tax. None of us.

On the issue of invading and killing:

See previous post. I don't believe that encouraging or supporting killing and forcing religion is acceptable, much less invading and killing.

No WE don't all pay the same taxes.
Some people don't pay any income taxes.
Some pay very little as a percentage of their income.
This government penalizes success and keeps people dependant upon it through the tax structure and entitlements.

A question only:
What would this world look like if everyone acted like Muslims?

[Pliny]

Typical of you. Except you forgot to pull the beam out of your own eye. So Mohammed brought a 9-yr-old wife into his household over 1400 years ago? Here are your own ages of consent by state, only 150 years ago.

Alabama 10
Alaska -
Arizona 12
Arkansas 10
California 10
Colorado 10
Connecticut 10
District of Columbia 12
Delaware 7
Florida 10
Georgia 10
Hawaii - -
Idaho 10
Illinois 10
Indiana 12
Iowa 10
Kansas 10
Kentucky 12
Louisiana 12
Maine 10
Maryland 10
Massachusetts 10
Michigan 10
Minnesota 10
Mississippi 10
Missouri 12
Montana 10
Nebraska 10
Nevada 12
New Hampshire 10
New Jersey 10
New Mexico 10
New York 10
North Carolina 10
North Dakota 10
Ohio 10
Oklahoma - - 16
Oregon 10
Pennsylvania 10
Rhode Island 10
South Carolina 10
South Dakota 10
Tennessee 10
Texas 10
Utah 10
Vermont 10
Virginia 12
Washington 12
West Virginia 12
Wisconsin 10
Wyoming 10

Delaware stands out. How come? I know I know. Here's why. To hold office in Delaware, you had to be a religious man.

Article 22 shown below is a very strict religious test-oath. Not only did you have to be a Christian, you had to believe in the Trinity and the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

"Every person who shall be chosen a member of either House, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit: I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration".

Reworded:

I _____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration and this gives me and my white protestant peers the full right to be perverts and violate 7-yr-old girls".

Gotta be specially religious to hold office in Delaware in the good old US of A huh? How come you don't address that first, then go back 1400 years when God knows what was practiced in society and bring that up. You think age of marriage or consent is religious or traditional? Speak up.

Typical! Thanks for demonstrating once again that YOU JUSTIFY Islamic perversion by the perversion of others! LOL!!!

Oh and your data is not accurate as demnonstrated by someone else. You just pull stuff out of the air and expect it to be believed.

So hear you go someo questions:
1) Do you believe its okay to marry a 6 year old girl?
2) Do you believe a grown man should be able to marry and have "relations" with a 9 year old girl?

If your answer is "yes" then you have proven your mindset.

If no:
3) Do you believe it is a perversion?


I think everyone else here would answer no and that it IS a perversion.
So your answer please.

[Pliny]

Once AGAIN those "peaceful Mislims are at it!

NAIROBI, Kenya — Al-Shabab terrorists from Somalia hijacked a bus in Kenya’s north and killed 28 non-Muslims on board after they had been singled out from the rest of the passengers, police officials said Saturday

Read more: Al-Shabab terrorists kill 28 non-Muslims in Kenya bus | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/al-shabab-terrorists-kill-28-non-muslims-in-kenya-bus/#ixzz3JoXgehYI
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

[shazeep]

While these are sad, they amount to peering in to me, and IMO only lend credence to Islam (if djinn/satan are so intent upon co-opting and perverting the form)

[Walks_in_islam]

Your data seems incorrect.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IBQ9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=texas+age+of+consent+1864&source=bl&ots=COrzacwoGz&sig=EHE32jkcJCCj2NRYqsRfQJOXWwc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IDpwVOCzGMaegwSn24CoCw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwCTgK

Is it?

Not according to this Yale Law article

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1169&context=yjlh

When agitation for reform of statutory rape law first began in the United States in 1885, the age of consent in most states was ten years. Ten years was the English common law rule adopted by most of the newly-formed United States and the District of Columbia. Four years later, in 1889, Congress revised the statutory age in the D.C. criminal code upwards to sixteen years, where it remains today. In like measure, throughout the country during the 1880s and 1890s, state and territorial legislatures significantly raised the age of consent. Today, all states criminalize statutory rape in some form and the age of consent in the majority of states is sixteen years.

Not according to any other history source either actually. Here's a random one.

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen. The campaign was eventually quite successful; by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.

Check again?

Unless........you want to perpetuate lies in a thread about a religion of lies...?

[Walks_in_islam]

Typical! Thanks for demonstrating once again that YOU JUSTIFY Islamic perversion by the perversion of others! LOL!!!

Oh and your data is not accurate as demnonstrated by someone else. You just pull stuff out of the air and expect it to be believed.

So hear you go someo questions:
1) Do you believe its okay to marry a 6 year old girl?
2) Do you believe a grown man should be able to marry and have "relations" with a 9 year old girl?

If your answer is "yes" then you have proven your mindset.

If no:
3) Do you believe it is a perversion?


I think everyone else here would answer no and that it IS a perversion.
So your answer please.

My data is just fine. Still standing. Want some more sources? There are jillions of them and they all say the same thing and give the same ages - 7 in delaware and 10 in 25 other states. Because in Delaware, you had to swear in as a Christian to be a lawmaker and that is also from a reputable source.

So what society today defines to be perversion was, right or wrong in your eyes, acceptable in the past.

This acceptance in the past does not seem to be religious in nature.

For you, as a Christian, to call what a Muslim did 1450 years ago a perversion vs. Christianity and Christian beliefs then you need to conclusively demonstrate that this was a perversion in the eyes of God from the beginning of Christianity. Crack that book of yours open and go.

I know this: I am in no position to declare what is or is not perversion other than what the words in the books declare to be perversion. One of the things that is declared to be perversion in both your book and mine is standing on behalf of God and declaring judgement on a person or action with no written basis behind it. Doing so puts oneself in God's position and this is both a dangerous and perverted act.

[BrotherEastman]

My data is just fine. Still standing. Want some more sources? There are jillions of them and they all say the same thing and give the same ages - 7 in delaware and 10 in 25 other states. Because in Delaware, you had to swear in as a Christian to be a lawmaker and that is also from a reputable source.

So what society today defines to be perversion was, right or wrong in your eyes, acceptable in the past.

This acceptance in the past does not seem to be religious in nature.

For you, as a Christian, to call what a Muslim did 1450 years ago a perversion vs. Christianity and Christian beliefs then you need to conclusively demonstrate that this was a perversion in the eyes of God from the beginning of Christianity. Crack that book of yours open and go.

I know this: I am in no position to declare what is or is not perversion other than what the words in the books declare to be perversion. One of the things that is declared to be perversion in both your book and mine is standing on behalf of God and declaring judgement on a person or action with no written basis behind it. Doing so puts oneself in God's position and this is both a dangerous and perverted act.

Sooooooo, you're into perversion??????

[BrotherEastman]

The problem with Walks -in - Islam is that his prophet was perverse, and Christ was not. He tries to bring in the "well your guys did it" argument but it doesn't hold in the face of Jesus. Muhammad was a pervert and Christ was not, that settles that!!!!!!!!

[Pliny]

My data is just fine. Still standing. Want some more sources? There are jillions of them and they all say the same thing and give the same ages - 7 in delaware and 10 in 25 other states. Because in Delaware, you had to swear in as a Christian to be a lawmaker and that is also from a reputable source.

So what society today defines to be perversion was, right or wrong in your eyes, acceptable in the past.

This acceptance in the past does not seem to be religious in nature.

For you, as a Christian, to call what a Muslim did 1450 years ago a perversion vs. Christianity and Christian beliefs then you need to conclusively demonstrate that this was a perversion in the eyes of God from the beginning of Christianity. Crack that book of yours open and go.

I know this: I am in no position to declare what is or is not perversion other than what the words in the books declare to be perversion. One of the things that is declared to be perversion in both your book and mine is standing on behalf of God and declaring judgement on a person or action with no written basis behind it. Doing so puts oneself in God's position and this is both a dangerous and perverted act.

Okay YOUR answer is that an old man marrying a 6 year old girl is NOT perversion.

What a despicable religion you have.

Oh and BTW I think ANYONE marerying a 6 year old is SICK!!! I could care less if he calls himself a Christian or a Muslim Prophet.

As a "holy man" (which he surely was NOT) he should be set to a higher standard. Also, since he is the one Mulsims look up to and seek to emulate this perversion is part of the Islamic tradition.

Jesus on the other hand was HOLY and sets a far higher standard and is therefore a much better person to emulate. This alone makes Christianity far superior to the perversion of Islam.

[Pliny]

The problem with Walks -in - Islam is that his prophet was perverse, and Christ was not. He tries to bring in the "well your guys did it" argument but it doesn't hold in the face of Jesus. Muhammad was a pervert and Christ was not, that settles that!!!!!!!!

Well said.

[Praxeas]

WE are American and WE all pay the same taxes. WE would not accept a religious-based tax. None of us.

On the issue of invading and killing:

See previous post. I don't believe that encouraging or supporting killing and forcing religion is acceptable, much less invading and killing.
I didn't ask about being American. I asked specifically whether you condemn or not imposing a tax on Christians

[mfblume]

So what society today defines to be perversion was, right or wrong in your eyes, acceptable in the past.

Wow. You admit to what our society calls perversion in a man marrying a six year old girl. Sick sick sick. And you say it is not necessarily perversion in other cultures. No, and murdering people if they do not conform is also not considered perversion of morality in other culturs as well..

This acceptance in the past does not seem to be religious in nature.

For you, as a Christian, to call what a Muslim did 1450 years ago a perversion vs. Christianity and Christian beliefs then you need to conclusively demonstrate that this was a perversion in the eyes of God from the beginning of Christianity. Crack that book of yours open and go.

Again you admit to this tripe! Wow.

I know this: I am in no position to declare what is or is not perversion other than what the words in the books declare to be perversion. One of the things that is declared to be perversion in both your book and mine is standing on behalf of God and declaring judgement on a person or action with no written basis behind it. Doing so puts oneself in God's position and this is both a dangerous and perverted act.

Don't digress. Your religion is perverted. Just admit it. It's perverted to morality in our culture. Say it.

[Praxeas]

I think...getting away from accusing someone of perversion, the problem with Islam is

Many Islamics believe and practice murder, lies,kidnapping, rape and pedophilia as a part of their religious beliefs

Many Islamics claim to not but often won't condemn those that do then or are sympathetic towards these groups like Hamas

Many Islamics just do not agree at all with all these acts and groups BUT...the problem is, while condemning them they are actually condemning the founder of their religion

Muhammad was a man of war. Jesus was of Peace.

Muhammad and his followers warred against the Meccans. They raided towns, killing the man and taking women and girls as slaves, later to be married off

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/046-sbt.php#003.046.717))


Book 008, Number 3371: Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

WII and other Moderate Muslims have condemned these sorts of actions by their own prophet and his direct followers

[Walks_in_islam]

I didn't ask about being American. I asked specifically whether you condemn or not imposing a tax on Christians

I do not believe imposing a tax that is not equally applied to everyone is acceptable.

[Walks_in_islam]

Wow. You admit to what our society calls perversion in a man marrying a six year old girl. Sick sick sick. And you say it is not necessarily perversion in other cultures. No, and murdering people if they do not conform is also not considered perversion of morality in other culturs as well..

Again you admit to this tripe! Wow.



Don't digress. Your religion is perverted. Just admit it. It's perverted to morality in our culture. Say it.

I did not digress.

Since you declare this to be perverted I asked you, based on YOUR infallible bible, what is the right, and true, criteria for marriage and age of marriage.

Christianity is older than Islam and the roots of the bible go back more than 3,000 years. This highly critical aspect of his life for which you judge Mohammed MUST be mentioned somewhere.

So please go get it and teach me and everyone else here not only what is perversion but ALSO spell out, since according to you a big wrong was done, what is right and what specifically should have been done according to all of the records of God's law that you seem to be highly familiar with.

Please find it, and show it, and teach it, and I will accord you the respect of listening to what you find and have to say. God ALWAYS defines what is and is not perversion in his books so this terrible thing needs to be exposed once and for all.

ONCE AGAIN: Crack that book and go. Nobody gives two hoots about your opinion, this is a religious forum, you are apostolic, and you should be able to easily demonstrate such a highly important sin from your book and also demonstrate exactly what criteria should be followed, also from your book. Go.

Idly thinking that maybe you can find it in ancient Jewish law. Check the Talmud? Here's the link.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/l/l3702.htm

I know what it says. Translate it yourself.

[Walks_in_islam]

[QUOTE=Praxeas;1344940]I think...getting away from accusing someone of perversion, the problem with Islam is

Jesus was of Peace.




When? PLEASE show us all, in 2000 years, how Jesus was the "prince of peace" and Christian followers of Jesus ever asked for, strove for, or wished for peace.

5 years? 10 years? 100 years? Any period of time? Your prophecy preachers are rattling again about end times. It would have been nice to demonstrate this peaceful nature sometime in the last 2000 years before talking about it now wouldn't it?

[Praxeas]

And here is what I REALLY said

I think...getting away from accusing someone of perversion, the problem with Islam is

Many Islamics believe and practice murder, lies,kidnapping, rape and pedophilia as a part of their religious beliefs

Many Islamics claim to not but often won't condemn those that do then or are sympathetic towards these groups like Hamas

Many Islamics just do not agree at all with all these acts and groups BUT...the problem is, while condemning them they are actually condemning the founder of their religion

Muhammad was a man of war. Jesus was of Peace.

Muhammad and his followers warred against the Meccans. They raided towns, killing the man and taking women and girls as slaves, later to be married off

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/046-sbt.php#003.046.717))


Book 008, Number 3371: Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

WII and other Moderate Muslims have condemned these sorts of actions by their own prophet and his direct followers


WII you avoided everything then your comment about Jesus actually ignored Jesus and instead focused on people who were NOT Jesus as if they were.

[Walks_in_islam]

And here is what I REALLY said



WII you avoided everything then your comment about Jesus actually ignored Jesus and instead focused on people who were NOT Jesus as if they were.

Who ignored Jesus? Please re-interpret my comment on times of peace to include all days from birth of Jesus to present.

I generously included you and your peaceful fellow Christians. Has there been one Christian place, one nation, one period of time, that you can use to demonstrate your peaceful nature? God knows Christianity has blazed much further across the globe than Islam has.

What nations or peoples have you brought peace too? Is there even one?

[Walks_in_islam]

Okay YOUR answer is that an old man marrying a 6 year old girl is NOT perversion.

What a despicable religion you have.

Oh and BTW I think ANYONE marerying a 6 year old is SICK!!! I could care less if he calls himself a Christian or a Muslim Prophet.

As a "holy man" (which he surely was NOT) he should be set to a higher standard. Also, since he is the one Mulsims look up to and seek to emulate this perversion is part of the Islamic tradition.

Jesus on the other hand was HOLY and sets a far higher standard and is therefore a much better person to emulate. This alone makes Christianity far superior to the perversion of Islam.

In your excitement to attribute words to me (twisting another's words is just another form of a lie actually) I will remind you that I said that from a historical perspective the definition of perversion seems to be subjective across religious boundaries followed by noting that I am not really in the position to define perversion in the context of history.

The way your ladies dress up today to go to church was once declared perversion (actually not so long ago). Your declaration is thus not special or unique in nature however based on the silence to answering my question from a biblical or Torah or any other perspective.

Perversion is doing something unacceptable or different in the eyes of current culture. Here is an example of current perversion and I believe this IS ALSO declared so in your bible, (as opposed to your personal views about events over a thousand years ago):

The president and CEO of a Missouri Baptist conference center is out of a job after a sheriff’s Cyber Crimes Task Force arrested him for allegedly arranging to have sex with a dog after posting an ad on Craigslist .

Jerald “Jerry” Hill, 56, of Camden County was arrested on Aug. 5th after setting up a meeting with an undercover officer for the purpose of having sex with a dog, according to the Columbia Daily Tribune.

According to Boone County sheriff’s Detective Tracy Perkins, her office received a tip that someone was seeking sex with a dog or other type of animal — which she did not specify — on Craigslist. An undercover officer exchanged emails with Hill offering a dog for sex. Subsequently, Hill was taken into custody in Columbia, MO., when he arrived anticipating a sexual tryst.



?As a "holy man" (which he surely was NOT) he should be set to a higher standard.?

Is that biblical? Though you care, God really doesn't seem to, perhaps He uses a different criteria than you do to determine what standard He declares to be righteous or what vessels He chooses to convey His plans or His message. THAT is sprinkled throughout your bible, as you well know. Abraham after all was boinking his sister - yet He somehow became the father of nations and was declared Righteous by God. Dunno maybe God got that wrong. What's your take? Everyone born of that union is perverted? Not good for your buddies the Jews. Both sides of the Jews actually - the Taliban Pashtuns that you bomb (should you be bombing Jews? What if they are SUPPOSED to eventually take Jerusalem back? What side does that put you on?) or the Israeli Zionists that you support.

Maybe you should write your OWN bible and teach from that since you have your own set of rules and all. God however makes his own.

At one time in history:

Genesis 20:11–12

And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

YET God said:

I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Later in History:

Deuteronomy 27:22

‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ [Also see Leviticus 18:6–9.]

See how that works? That IS ALSO in your bible. Do you perhaps have an example to apply to Mohammed or Mohammed's actions? No? Alrightythen. Just make some stuff up.

[Walks_in_islam]

:chirp

[Ferd]

In your excitement to attribute words to me (twisting another's words is just another form of a lie actually) I will remind you that I said that from a historical perspective the definition of perversion seems to be subjective across religious boundaries followed by noting that I am not really in the position to define perversion in the context of history.

The way your ladies dress up today to go to church was once declared perversion (actually not so long ago). Your declaration is thus not special or unique in nature however based on the silence to answering my question from a biblical or Torah or any other perspective.

Perversion is doing something unacceptable or different in the eyes of current culture. Here is an example of current perversion and I believe this IS ALSO declared so in your bible, (as opposed to your personal views about events over a thousand years ago):

The president and CEO of a Missouri Baptist conference center is out of a job after a sheriff’s Cyber Crimes Task Force arrested him for allegedly arranging to have sex with a dog after posting an ad on Craigslist .

Jerald “Jerry” Hill, 56, of Camden County was arrested on Aug. 5th after setting up a meeting with an undercover officer for the purpose of having sex with a dog, according to the Columbia Daily Tribune.

According to Boone County sheriff’s Detective Tracy Perkins, her office received a tip that someone was seeking sex with a dog or other type of animal — which she did not specify — on Craigslist. An undercover officer exchanged emails with Hill offering a dog for sex. Subsequently, Hill was taken into custody in Columbia, MO., when he arrived anticipating a sexual tryst.



?As a "holy man" (which he surely was NOT) he should be set to a higher standard.?

Is that biblical? Though you care, God really doesn't seem to, perhaps He uses a different criteria than you do to determine what standard He declares to be righteous or what vessels He chooses to convey His plans or His message. THAT is sprinkled throughout your bible, as you well know. Abraham after all was boinking his sister - yet He somehow became the father of nations and was declared Righteous by God. Dunno maybe God got that wrong. What's your take? Everyone born of that union is perverted? Not good for your buddies the Jews. Both sides of the Jews actually - the Taliban Pashtuns that you bomb (should you be bombing Jews? What if they are SUPPOSED to eventually take Jerusalem back? What side does that put you on?) or the Israeli Zionists that you support.

Maybe you should write your OWN bible and teach from that since you have your own set of rules and all. God however makes his own.

At one time in history:

Genesis 20:11–12

And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

YET God said:

I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Later in History:

Deuteronomy 27:22

‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ [Also see Leviticus 18:6–9.]

See how that works? That IS ALSO in your bible. Do you perhaps have an example to apply to Mohammed or Mohammed's actions? No? Alrightythen. Just make some stuff up.

this is called deflection.

your wonderful faith has been shown to be a violent relgion and what do you do? well you cannot defend islam, so you try to point to bad stuff in other places to lessen the reality that your religion is a religion of death.

islams issue is islam. islams issue is not whatever might be or might have been wrong with some other religion.

[Aquila]

I've heard of Muslims marrying 9 year old girls, but not 6 year old girls. I also read that in most cases, these "child marriages" are more like betrothals. The marriage isn't consummated until the girl is "of age", in most primitive cultures, between 12 and 14.

[Aquila]

A Muslim friend of mine, Ahmed, lives down the street from me. We're the only house on the block that welcomed him and his family. The little lady works fro St. Vincent de Paul charities. We've assisted them (they have four kids and are struggling) with food, clothes, furniture, etc. Ahmed has helped me with auto mechanic work, has given us food that they don't eat, and has helped us with transportation on occasion. One night he was working late and his wife came to our door not knowing what to do about her son who was suffering from a terrible ear infection. It was late and the only 24 hour Walgreen's was nearly 40 minutes away. I took her and her son so that she could get some decent medication for the boy until he could see a doctor. They've come over and talked on the porch with us for hours before. Ahmed is from Iraq and his wife Nina (?) is from Iran. They are Shiite. This past weekend Ahmed and his family left for Iraq, Basra. They are going to see family and show the kids their dad's homeland. The kids, especially Malak (his very lovely daughter) are a bit freaked out about ISIS. Ahmed's brother had become a Christian and was rounded up with a group of Christians and killed earlier this year by ISIS in the North. Ahmed was very torn up. Before they left, Ahmed gave me some kind of prayer beads. I'm not sure how to pray them or work them or anything, but it was a nice gesture. They are really pretty beads. They are hand made from Saudi Arabia. They are blood red. There's a very nice tassel where a cross would normally be if it were a Rosary. I put it on my rear view mirror to remind me to pray for him and his family until they get back next month. They promised to send some gifts from Iraq. I really don't mind, but I was joking with the little lady about opening the packages in the back yard away from the kids. lol

[Esaias]

Anybody ever see the movie Four Lions?

[Pliny]

In your excitement to attribute words to me (twisting another's words is just another form of a lie actually) I will remind you that I said that from a historical perspective the definition of perversion seems to be subjective across religious boundaries followed by noting that I am not really in the position to define perversion in the context of history.


That's right "you're not in a position to define perversion". How utterly stupid. Like I said YOUR religion is despicable. Your "prophet" is a despicable pervert. No doubt the reason for you're aversion to understanding what perversio is.


The way your ladies dress up today to go to church was once declared perversion (actually not so long ago). Your declaration is thus not special or unique in nature however based on the silence to answering my question from a biblical or Torah or any other perspective.

Can anyone say obfuscation? Trying to justify the pervserion of your profit...

Perversion is doing something unacceptable or different in the eyes of current culture. Here is an example of current perversion and I believe this IS ALSO declared so in your bible, (as opposed to your personal views about events over a thousand years ago):

The president and CEO of a Missouri Baptist conference center is out of a job after a sheriff’s Cyber Crimes Task Force arrested him for allegedly arranging to have sex with a dog after posting an ad on Craigslist .

Jerald “Jerry” Hill, 56, of Camden County was arrested on Aug. 5th after setting up a meeting with an undercover officer for the purpose of having sex with a dog, according to the Columbia Daily Tribune.

According to Boone County sheriff’s Detective Tracy Perkins, her office received a tip that someone was seeking sex with a dog or other type of animal — which she did not specify — on Craigslist. An undercover officer exchanged emails with Hill offering a dog for sex. Subsequently, Hill was taken into custody in Columbia, MO., when he arrived anticipating a sexual tryst.


LOL! Your profit is STILL a pervert no matter how you try to justify his perversion!


?As a "holy man" (which he surely was NOT) he should be set to a higher standard.?

Is that biblical? Though you care, God really doesn't seem to, perhaps He uses a different criteria than you do to determine what standard He declares to be righteous or what vessels He chooses to convey His plans or His message. THAT is sprinkled throughout your bible, as you well know. Abraham after all was boinking his sister - yet He somehow became the father of nations and was declared Righteous by God. Dunno maybe God got that wrong. What's your take? Everyone born of that union is perverted? Not good for your buddies the Jews. Both sides of the Jews actually - the Taliban Pashtuns that you bomb (should you be bombing Jews? What if they are SUPPOSED to eventually take Jerusalem back? What side does that put you on?) or the Israeli Zionists that you support.

Maybe you should write your OWN bible and teach from that since you have your own set of rules and all. God however makes his own.

At one time in history:

Genesis 20:11–12

And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

YET God said:

I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Later in History:

Deuteronomy 27:22

‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ [Also see Leviticus 18:6–9.]

See how that works? That IS ALSO in your bible. Do you perhaps have an example to apply to Mohammed or Mohammed's actions? No? Alrightythen. Just make some stuff up.

LOL! The calistenics a person goes through to justify the perversion of their profit. Notice these facts:
Muhammed married a 6 year old girl. He consumated that marriage when she was 9.
The mind is never so resourceful as wehen it seeks to justify itself! LOL!

When confronted with this truth all the Muslim can do is try to say he cannot determine what perversdion is! ROTFL.
It would be far better to accept that Islam is a perverted religion and repent.

[Esaias]

Nobody's seen Four Lions? WII? Surely you have?

Oh well, probably for the best.

[shazeep]

Nobody's seen Four Lions? WII? Surely you have?

Oh well, probably for the best.so, give us a synopsis, and your point, then...surely better than reading this base casting of stones at each other.

[Esaias]

so, give us a synopsis, and your point, then...surely better than reading this base casting of stones at each other.

Hilarious comedy about an incompetent terrorist cell in London. Warning: some strong language including strings of Pashto cursing and insults. No sex or gratuitous violence (there are a couple scenes where people die but it's done without typical Hollyweird fixation on blood and gore. In fact there's no actual blood in the movie to my recollection.)

Not for everyone, it's British, some crass and goofy humour, but clearly political satire making fun of both terrorist wanna-be's and the police state response. There are several scenes of irony that ought to make any rational person really think about current events outside the box. Due to language not for children.

[Esaias]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyjlOLBv5o

[shazeep]

:lol ok i'll look for a link, seeing as how it doesn't seem to be from Hollywood...

[Walks_in_islam]

LOL! The calistenics a person goes through to justify the perversion of their profit. Notice these facts:
Muhammed married a 6 year old girl. He consumated that marriage when she was 9.
The mind is never so resourceful as wehen it seeks to justify itself! LOL!

When confronted with this truth all the Muslim can do is try to say he cannot determine what perversdion is! ROTFL.
It would be far better to accept that Islam is a perverted religion and repent.

When confronted with this truth all the Muslim can do is try to say he cannot determine what perversdion is (from the context of history, you forgot that)

The bible has many books. Surely this critical issue is mentioned somewhere? I committed to listen quietly to what your bible said about it.

Do you have anything at all that defines this "perversdion" (ROTFL) from a biblical point of view?

After you are finished laughing why don't you dust that book off and get started teaching from it? You DO have one and you DO know what's in it, don't you?

So answer. Still waiting. For awhile now.

[Walks_in_islam]

this is called deflection.

your wonderful faith has been shown to be a violent relgion and what do you do? well you cannot defend islam, so you try to point to bad stuff in other places to lessen the reality that your religion is a religion of death.

islams issue is islam. islams issue is not whatever might be or might have been wrong with some other religion.

No, that's called specifically demonstrating in black and white from your own bible that what is perverted at one period of time is not perverted from another period of time.

Your turn.

Take this issue and teach from your bible about it. Go.

[Walks_in_islam]

Who ignored Jesus? Please re-interpret my comment on times of peace to include all days from birth of Jesus to present.

I generously included you and your peaceful fellow Christians. Has there been one Christian place, one nation, one period of time, that you can use to demonstrate your peaceful nature? God knows Christianity has blazed much further across the globe than Islam has.

What nations or peoples have you brought peace too? Is there even one?

Answer if you can. We are near the end times right? The prophecy was about Jesus right? Where is the peace on earth? Goodwill? Time's kind of running short if the current signs are to be believed.

As stated, the gospel has blazed through villages and countries across the globe.

Please share the victorious message of peace and goodwill it has brought to anyone anywhere at any time. Not greedy here. We will leave the "on earth" out for the moment.

Just looking for one peaceful place for now. Do you have one?

[Lafon]

Answer if you can. We are near the end times right? The prophecy was about Jesus right? Where is the peace on earth? Goodwill? Time's kind of running short if the current signs are to be believed.

As stated, the gospel has blazed through villages and countries across the globe.

Please share the victorious message of peace and goodwill it has brought to anyone anywhere at any time. Not greedy here. We will leave the "on earth" out for the moment.

Just looking for one peaceful place for now. Do you have one?


As I read your comments I recalled that MY Bible states this concerning those such as you:

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (II Peter 3:3-4, KJV).

"Peace" WILL come to the whole earth, but ONLY when the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, my God and Saviour Jesus Christ returns (and that will be soon). This worldwide "peace" and "righteousness" will follow His casting of Satan and his wicked forces (such as Islam) into a bottomless pit, where there they shall remain for 1,000 years.

It truly gives me sorrow and grief to know that there are those like you who don't believe that!

[Pliny]

When confronted with this truth all the Muslim can do is try to say he cannot determine what perversdion is (from the context of history, you forgot that)

The bible has many books. Surely this critical issue is mentioned somewhere? I committed to listen quietly to what your bible said about it.

Do you have anything at all that defines this "perversdion" (ROTFL) from a biblical point of view?

After you are finished laughing why don't you dust that book off and get started teaching from it? You DO have one and you DO know what's in it, don't you?

So answer. Still waiting. For awhile now.

ROTFL!!!

What lengths muslims go to, to ignore the FACT that their profit was a pervert!!!

The rather than acknowledge the FACTs they try to justify it a thousand ways instead of accepting the FACT that their religion is a religion of perverts and repent.

Notice how the resident muslim refuses to acknowledge that a 50 year old man marrying a 6 year old is a pervert? He cannot refute the FACT that this is what his profit did so instead he ignores the obvious and tries to obfuscate the issue rather than deal with the truth. This is the type of religion islam is. A religion of lies, perversion, murder, rape and the list goes on and on.

Almost everyday the headlines are filled with muslims practicing their religion.

For example:
BAUCHI, Nigeria (AP) - Two teenage female suicide bombers blew themselves up Tuesday in a crowded market in Nigeria's northeastern city of Maiduguri, killing at least 30 people, according to witnesses and a security official.
Boko Haram, Nigeria's Islamic extremist rebels, are suspected of the bombings, as they have carried out many similar attacks. The bombings highlight Nigeria's ongoing insecurity in which 1,500 people have been killed by the militant's insurgency this year, according to Amnesty International.
The two girls dressed in full hijabs entered the busy marketplace and detonated their explosives, said Abba Aji Kalli, the Borno state coordinator of the Civilian Joint Task Force.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/11/26/nigeria-2-teen-female-suicide-bombers-kill-30/20999226/


2ND VEHICULAR JIHAD IN FRANCE IN 2 DAYS: Muslim Shouting “Allahu Akbar” Rams His Car into Christmas Shoppers - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2014/12/2nd-vehicular-jihad-in-2-days-muslim-rams-his-car-into-christmas-crowd-shouting-allahu-akbar.html/#sthash.CKV5wBdm.dpuf


Rape and Sexual Slavery Inside an ISIS Prison
Held by the terror group, women and girls as young as 14 who are not sold as wives are subjected to rape and torture. One woman is trying to buy their freedom—but time is running out.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/28/rape-and-sexual-slavery-inside-an-isis-prison.html


And the list goes on and on and on and on...

[shazeep]

strictly hate mongering. you should be ashamed. A "Pentecostal" posting links from the "news" :lol tsk tsk

[shazeep]

Hilarious comedy about an incompetent terrorist cell in London. Warning: some strong language including strings of Pashto cursing and insults. No sex or gratuitous violence (there are a couple scenes where people die but it's done without typical Hollyweird fixation on blood and gore. In fact there's no actual blood in the movie to my recollection.)

Not for everyone, it's British, some crass and goofy humour, but clearly political satire making fun of both terrorist wanna-be's and the police state response. There are several scenes of irony that ought to make any rational person really think about current events outside the box. Due to language not for children.i usually have no problem finding movies at viooz or putlocker; but this one is proving difficult.

[shazeep]

Ah, today it popped up no problem, hmm.
http://www.putlocker.tw/watch-four-lions-online-free-putlocker-2010.html

[Pliny]

Does islam allow pre-pubiscent girls to marry?

From islamic rulings on marriage:

"Islam does not give a specific age for marriage, either for the husband or for the wife. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not”

[al-Talaaq 65:4].

Al-Sa‘di (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “along with those who have it [menses] not” means minors, those who have not yet started to menstruate. Adult women who have never menstruated at all are like those who “despair of menstruation” (i.e., have passed menopause); their ‘iddah is three months. End quote.

Hmmm... did you cath that? Just in case here it is again:
“And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not”

Those who "have it not" means pre-pubiscent girls. This is reiterated in their own interpretation:
Al-Sa‘di (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “along with those who have it [menses] not” means minors, those who have not yet started to menstruate.


But hey its a great religion because the men are told to not "consumate" the marriage until the little girl can physically handle the weight of the pervert, ooopppsss, I mean the man. Here is their teaching:

"A man should not consummate marriage with his young bride until she is physically able to bear intercourse. This varies from one time, place and environment to another."

http://islamqa.info/en/146882


Then there is this teaching in islam:
"Marrying a young girl before she reaches the age of adolescence is permitted in sharee’ah; indeed it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.

(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah has made the ‘iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods – because she is young and has not yet reached puberty – three months. This clearly indicates that Allaah has made this a valid marriage."
http://islamqa.info/en/22442


That's right. Child brides are ok with islam. The moon god (allah) makes it valid. It is a sick, twisted and perverted religion. As we have seen, they refuse to acknowledge this as a perversion because that would mean identifying their profit as a pedophile.

[shazeep]

Pliny, wadr, i am curious about something; disregarding for the moment our perceptions in the matter--that people back then only lived to 35-40, and sex at 12 was not that uncommon; or that it is a different culture; or that you seem to be grabbing a strange dog by the ears, here--how are you serving God with this? Do you really believe that satan needs help accusing? What is the point, in your opinion, to this...hate-mongering?

I have no doubt that you are surely loving to many--and this is a forum, after all; a place for ideas; so i'm trying not to be judgemental. But really, being American, i'm wondering why--if you wish to bang on child brides--"Mississippi" does not first come to mind, because take it from an eyewitness, i never saw any of that in any Muslim community. Not that it is non-existent (i don't know)

[shazeep]

Ah, today it popped up no problem, hmm.
http://www.putlocker.tw/watch-four-lions-online-free-putlocker-2010.htmlhilarious, and prolly very close to the truth in many cases.

[Pliny]

Pliny, wadr, i am curious about something; disregarding for the moment our perceptions in the matter--that people back then only lived to 35-40, and sex at 12 was not that uncommon; or that it is a different culture; or that you seem to be grabbing a strange dog by the ears, here--how are you serving God with this? Do you really believe that satan needs help accusing? What is the point, in your opinion, to this...hate-mongering?

I have no doubt that you are surely loving to many--and this is a forum, after all; a place for ideas; so i'm trying not to be judgemental. But really, being American, i'm wondering why--if you wish to bang on child brides--"Mississippi" does not first come to mind, because take it from an eyewitness, i never saw any of that in any Muslim community. Not that it is non-existent (i don't know)

Several points were made that i will address and have to break up due to size.

The points of this post are:
That sex at 12 was common in history.
That it (I assume you mean islam) is a different culture.
I am grabbing a strange dog by the ears.

A question asked is how does my post “serve God”?

Then the accusation of “helping satan accuse”.
Then you call it “hatemongering”.

You state that you are not trying to be judgmental.
Then try to justify Islamic child brides by attempting to equate a moral equivalency with Mississippi child brides.
Next you state you have never seen it in a muslim community that you are aware of.

So allow me to address these points.
1) That sex at 12 was not uncommon because of lifespans, historically.
This has nothing to do with the subject. First the Islamic “holy man” married a 6 year old girl not a 12 year old. Big difference in that alone. Also, morality is not based upon cultural norms. If that were the case there would be little that could ever be considered “wrong”. Should child sacrifice be accepted and justified because historically it was a cultural norm? I sincerely pray you don’t actually think so.

What you have attempted here is a false dichotomy. There is no moral equivalency. Remember Muhammad set himself above the entire world by proclaiming himself to be uniquely established to be the mouthpiece of his deity. Therefore, he alone sets the standard of morality. This is far different from sinful humanity attempting to establish a cultural norm. One can expect a depraved human being to establish a culture that is shocking to a holy God. However, when a man proclaims himself to be the mouthpiece of god and is more depraved than the “sinful” peoples around him it is quite telling what kind of man he was.

As mentioned this is a false dichotomy. First because the girl in question in regards to the supposed “holy man” was 6 not 12. Secondly, there is no moral equivalency due to the fact that he established a new “culture” through his unique position of being the mouthpiece of his deity. He asserted that what he did, he did with the blessing and/or commandment of his deity.

2) That islam is a different culture.
This appears to mean that we cannot say that the culture is wrong regardless of what they do. If this is what you mean then you are completely and totally wrong. Truth and justice demands that we acknowledge what is right or wrong. Should we accept honor killings as well because of the culture of violence within muslim communities? Should we bury our heads in the sand because millions of muslims exercise jihad as part of their culture? When they murderously blow up people like at the Boston Marathon should we not acknowledge the evil because it is a “different culture”? As far as I am concerned I will continue to the truth regardless of culture, foreign or domestic.

3) Grabbing a strange dog by the ears.
I suppose it is a “strange dog”. Actually it’s worse than a “strange dog”.

4) How does my post serve God?
First remember the audience. This is supposed to be a “Christian” forum or more specifically an “Apostolic” one. Truth is truth therefore it is reasonable to me that “Apostolics” would desire to know the truth.

For those who are unaware of the tenets of islam they can see for themselves the truth and the obfuscations of muslims. It’s apparent to me that the resident muslim does not care about the truth. He seeks only to justify the bad behavior of other muslims. Yet, that bad behavior is inherent in islam and is something to be emulated since its founder propagated this bad behavior. People need to know the evil of islam so they can perhaps help someone who is sincere but sincerely wrong.

Please note that the facts have never been questioned. There has only been attempts to justify the bad behavior.

5) You accused me of helping satan accuse.
How ridiculous. Jesus was very forthright with the religious rulers of his day. It is not an accusation to stand for truth. It is not an accusation to call evil – evil. Indeed we live in a day when people call evil good and good evil. Based upon your premise a Christian should never take a stand against sin. A Christian should never tell someone that the behavior they are propagating is evil. Jesus said if the salt has lost its saltiness it is good for nothing (paraphrased). Apostolics are to be the light of the earth. That means light will be directed at darkness. It is not an accusation to call evil – evil. It’s the truth.

I am reminded of the narrative of the Good Samaritan. I am sure you know the story so I will only make the point about the oil and the wine that was poured into the wounds of the man. Oil is symbolic of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of truth. As such an alcoholic, for example, must first recognize he is an alcoholic before he can begin the process healing. In fact everyone must come to grips with the d=fact that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. That can only happen when we are confronted with the truth. The “wine” can be poured into the wound. The wine is of course symbolic of the blood of Christ. Once we understand our need of a savior then spiritual healing can take place. It will never take place without the truth being accepted.

6) You called it “hatemongering”.
Really? You prefer people bury their heads in the sand and ignore the fact that a major religion supports and tells its believers to emulate an old man that married a 6 year old girl? This mindset reminds me of the social psychological phenomenon known as the “Genovese syndrome”. It is shocking that you would call that “hatemongering”.

What is truly “hateful” is that young girls are being manipulated and exploited by old men for their own perverse gratification. THAT is “hateful” and despicable.

In case you did not read what muslim scholars have said concerning this despicable act here it is again:
Marrying a young girl before she reaches the age of adolescence is permitted in sharee’ah; indeed it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.
(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”
[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah has made the ‘iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods – because she is young and has not yet reached puberty – three months. This clearly indicates that Allaah has made this a valid marriage.

There is Islamic scholarly consensus that their deity has made this a valid marriage.

Also,
Ibn Qudaamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said in al-Sharh al-Kabeer, 7/386:
With regard to females, the father may give his minor, virgin daughter who has not yet reached the age of nine in marriage, and there is no difference of opinion concerning that, if he gives her in marriage to someone who is compatible.

Ibn al-Mundhir said: All of those scholars from whom we acquired knowledge unanimously agreed that it is permissible for a father to give his minor daughter in marriage if he arranges her to someone who is compatible, and it is permissible for him to do that even if she is reluctant. End quote.

Did you catch that? All those scholars from whom they acquired knowledge unanimously agree that it is permissible for a father to give his daughter in marriage even though she is not yet 9 years old. Child brides are intrinsic to islam. It’s permissible to give a daughter in marriage as young as 6 years old under islam. And you dare to say my voicing of this travesty is “hatemongering”!?!?

It’s appalling that someone would attempt to justify such a heinous act but to then call it “hatemongering” when someone stands against it is shocking to say the least.

Muslims are also known as Mohammedans because they emulate their founder. Their founder was a pervert and they have unanimous scholarship that tells them that it’s okay with their deity for this kind of exploitive abuse to take place.

The true “hate” is those who would justify this disgusting practice and condemn little girls to a life of manipulation bound to the gratification of an old gray headed pervert. It’s simply disgusting that you would attempt to justify this practice. Shame on you. Shame on anyone who would adhere to such a belief system. Common sense should tell anyone to flee such a system of thought. Common sense should tell everyone to run to the only person the world should emulate, Jesus Christ. Instead the spirit of anti-Christ continues to this day.

[Pliny]

Pliny, wadr, i am curious about something; disregarding for the moment our perceptions in the matter--that people back then only lived to 35-40, and sex at 12 was not that uncommon; or that it is a different culture; or that you seem to be grabbing a strange dog by the ears, here--how are you serving God with this? Do you really believe that satan needs help accusing? What is the point, in your opinion, to this...hate-mongering?

I have no doubt that you are surely loving to many--and this is a forum, after all; a place for ideas; so i'm trying not to be judgemental. But really, being American, i'm wondering why--if you wish to bang on child brides--"Mississippi" does not first come to mind, because take it from an eyewitness, i never saw any of that in any Muslim community. Not that it is non-existent (i don't know)

Continued:

7) Then try to justify Islamic child brides by attempting to equate a moral equivalency with Mississippi child brides.
I mentioned it above but will reiterate it here. There is no moral equivalency between Mohammedans and governmental institutions such as the state of Mississippi. Mississippi does not attempt to set itself up as the sole arbiter of divine will. It does not propagate the idea that a deity specifically chose them to be the mouthpiece for that deity setting themselves up as the unique arbiter the will of god. In other words the state of Mississippi does not say anything is right or wrong because god told them so.

That is actually one reason why so many muslims either demand Sahria Law or are okay with Sharia Law. Sharia, according to them, is gods will for humanity. That means, according to Sharia, it’s gods’ will for innocent children to be married off to old men who will then exploit them for their own disgusting purposes.

Muhammad is said to be the messenger of god and what he says is to be understood as coming directly from his god. As such Islamic scholars are in agreement that this practice, child brides, is accepted within Islamic law. It’s inherent to islam thus, to accept islam is to accept this perversion, nothing could be more clear.


8) Next you state you have never seen it in a muslim community that you are aware of.
Whether you have personally seen it or not has no bearing on the fact that within islam, child brides are okay. I truly hope muslims take a good hard look at what islam teaches and reject it. I truly hope and pray that they will turn to the only person in the world we should strive to be like, Jesus Christ.

Concluding remarks:
All we see from muslim apologists are the prevarications concerning this and other atrocities perpetrated by muslims. Their argument that this was from a long time ago does not negate the fact that Islamic scholarship unanimously agrees that it is permissible in islam TODAY. The argument that there were others that did the same thing is a false dichotomy.

The only way for muslims to justify this is to try and point out the bad behavior of others and attempt a moral comparison. However, there is no moral equivalency because they are adamant that their “holy man” received his revelations directly from his deity. Therefore, the bad behavior cannot be used as justification because there is no moral equivalency whether it be by a state or an individual. The fact that they have to do this reveals the inherent depravity within islam.

This inherent depravity reveals their great need of a savior. The only way for them to see this is to point out the failings of such a system. Yet, as we have seen here they are deceived and refuse to accept the truth. In fact many muslims are told to not read the bible for fear it will confuse them, according to a Fatwa I read some time back. Only those muslims who are “mature” (deceived) enough are allowed to read the Bible and then only to argue against those who would bring up the truth.

So do you believe it’s okay for a 50 year old man to marry a 6 year old girl? Is there any justification for it in your mind? If so you are as deceived as the Mohammedans. They need to know the truth. Someone has to be willing to tell them. Instead the try to pass “anti-blasphemy” laws to keep people from telling the truth about their “holy man”.

[shazeep]

ok, are you familiar with Muslim adoption practices? i am...

"The only way for them to see this is to point out the failings of such a system."

On a Pentecostal forum? really? :lol ok, well it comes off as pointing a finger, where you are most likely to get wide agreement. I think you are kidding yourself.

Pliny, have you ever even met a Muslim? At the very least, you might consider seeking out some more neutral news sources, because lets admit it, you would not even be aware of Muslims were it not for the news, yes? And why attack a religion, when it is the people that matter to God, I'm wondering.

Not really, i already know--it is so that your, and other readers' premises may be revealed. One's heart is made plain, and the plainer for bashing those completely foreign, different from themselves. I mean yikes, the reps of Christianity are bizzy demanding that Christ be the Father, and praying to Christ, or even Mary lol--seems pretty disingenuous, imo.

[Esaias]

So... who's gonna bring up the Talmud's teachings on "age of consent" etc?

[Aquila]

We're comparing ancient laws to modern society.

In Ohio the age of consent is 16. Young people can even marry at 16 with a parent's consent.

However, in our society today most are expected to wait at least until they are out of high school (roughly 18 years old). In best case scenarios we expect young people to wait until they are out of college, on average that's around their mid to late 20's. This is due to the level of advancement in our society. Not because of any inherent "decency" or "innocence". For the vast majority of human history in most cultures, girls would have been married off by 15 or 16.