View Full Version : Apostles never preached hell?
Truthseeker
10-25-2014, 09:57 AM
Anyone ever notice apostles never preached hell in acts or epistles?
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2014, 02:17 PM
Paul mentioned Hades one time showing that Christians would be there until the resurrection. See verse 55. I have inserted the Greek word that belongs there.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O HADES , where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Because people dont understand the nature of eternal judgment they wind up missing the abundance of times its actually there.
Acts 2:38 man
10-25-2014, 02:33 PM
Hades is the generic place of the dead before the resurrection of Jesus. Gehenna is Hell (fire) as we commonly know it. Nonetheless, not an easy answer and yes, I have preached on and often pondered over the lack of eternal punishment in the Apostles' messages. We see it in Jude and Peter, albeit referring to angels and souls from the past before Christ came to earth.
Esaias
10-25-2014, 05:23 PM
The apostles Matthew and John recorded our Lord's teachings on hell and eternal judgement. Luke did as well. Mark also.
Paul taught about the everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord the rebellious will suffer. John "the Revelator" clearly taught the final destruction of the wicked.
To say it is absent from the NT or greatly lacking is clearly false.
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2014, 05:32 PM
The apostles Matthew and John recorded our Lord's teachings on hell and eternal judgement. Luke did as well. Mark also.
Paul taught about the everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord the rebellious will suffer. John "the Revelator" clearly taught the final destruction of the wicked.
To say it is absent from the NT or greatly lacking is clearly false.
Agreed. I said:
Because people dont understand the nature of eternal judgment they wind up missing the abundance of times its actually there.
Acts 2:38 man
10-25-2014, 06:01 PM
Well answered. But I think the original question was why don't we see in in the recorded sermons in Acts or the Epistles hell mentioned in detail like in the teaching of Jesus? I think the question possibly comes from a person who has heard a lot of sermons on hell (I may be mistaken) or simply noticed the lack of clear and/or steady references to it after the Gospels.
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2014, 07:04 PM
Well answered. But I think the original question was why don't we see in in the recorded sermons in Acts or the Epistles hell mentioned in detail like in the teaching of Jesus? I think the question possibly comes from a person who has heard a lot of sermons on hell (I may be mistaken) or simply noticed the lack of clear and/or steady references to it after the Gospels.
Because people are looking to find that when one dies they go to Hell where they will be tormented in flames for hundreds of trillions of years every day and thats just the beginning. They dont find it in the epistles because it is not the doctrine of eternal punishment.
The true teaching of eternal judgment is missed.
Paul mentions it several times in short order to the Romans.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
And here:
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13
And in the most famous verse in the Bible.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Does anyone catch it? The doctrine of eternal judgment?
Now let me make it clearer for those who dont.
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Did anyone catch that? That in Gehenna fire BOTH SOUL AND BODY WILL BE DESTROYED?
Now go back and look at the previous 3 verses posted and hopefully it will start making sense.
What is the basis for the doctrine of eternal punishment in the OT?
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4
There it is! THE SOUL THAT SINS SHALL DIE!
This is in all the Apostles writings. The Gehenna fire that the wicked are cast into at the judgment will DESTROY their souls. They may be there for a long time first but the ultimate end of the wicked is their being destroyed.
Acts 2:38 man
10-25-2014, 07:21 PM
Michael:
I have been leaning that way (your explanation) for sometime and now I have some more evidence for the direction I have been thinking thanks to your explanation. I was never comfortable teaching the eternal torment view but couldn't get around the passages on hell fire and wanted to be truthful to the Word. John 3:16 and "perish" liberated me but I find to teach it is an act of faith but am more spiritually comfortable with that view. Thank you.
Acts 2:38 man
10-25-2014, 07:28 PM
My preaching in recent times has focused on your position due to seeing "perish" in John 3:16 sometime ago and Matthew 10:28 as well as you mentioned.
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2014, 07:31 PM
Michael:
I have been leaning that way (your explanation) for sometime and now I have some more evidence for the direction I have been thinking thanks to your explanation. I was never comfortable teaching the eternal torment view but couldn't get around the passages on hell fire and wanted to be truthful to the Word. John 3:16 and "perish" liberated me but I find to teach it is an act of faith but am more spiritually comfortable with that view. Thank you.
Awesome friend! Yes the Biblical version of eternal judgment is far more scriptural. I imagine others will become involved with this topic and thats good it will be another opportunity to contrast the two teachings. There are maybe 2 or 3 of us here that have come to see the truth.
It happened with me in 1990. A friend brought Matt. 10:28 to me. I read it over a few times and a bit of light broke through! Of course that led to re examine everything and I have been comfortable teaching it for years.
Ready to leave for work now but will check this thread tomorrow. Peace, Michael.
Truthseeker
10-25-2014, 07:51 PM
The apostles Matthew and John recorded our Lord's teachings on hell and eternal judgement. Luke did as well. Mark also.
Paul taught about the everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord the rebellious will suffer. John "the Revelator" clearly taught the final destruction of the wicked.
To say it is absent from the NT or greatly lacking is clearly false.
They quoted what Jesus said but never preached it themselves.
How do people get everlasting destruction means a burning fire pit?
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2014, 08:02 PM
They quoted what Jesus said but never preached it themselves.
How do people get everlasting destruction means a burning fire pit?
One might start here.
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1
Yeshua brought that over in his teaching.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt 13:41-42
Its the same thing. It will burn up the chaff.
Same here.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matt 3:11-12
The chaff is burned up.
Abiding Now
10-25-2014, 09:44 PM
The Apostle John definitely had a grip on hell and the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Esaias
10-26-2014, 01:05 AM
They quoted what Jesus said but never preached it themselves.
How do people get everlasting destruction means a burning fire pit?
You dont know they never preached it. The purpose of the Gospels is to showcase the teaching of Christ. They are evangelistic writings designed to evangelise the lost. Hell is pretty prominent in them. To say "they wrote what Jesus said but didnt preach it" shows a misunderstanding of the purpose of the Gospels.
Besides Paul affirmed that he taught "the whole counsel of God" which of necessity includes the final judgement.
It seems ridiculous to me to suggest the final judgement and punishment of the wicked are not apostolic doctrines taught in the new testament.
As for everlasting destruction meaning a burning fire, not sure what that means. The bible (old and new) uses fire as the metaphor for God's destruction of the wicked. John saw a lake of fire. Daniel saw a river of fire. Jesus spoke of a burning garbage dump. Isaiah spoke of everlasting burnings. Seems pretty clear.
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2014, 06:36 AM
The deeper truth the apostles understood was the truth of ETERNAL JUDGMENT. They knew that the lake of fire was just an instrument God will use for the actual penalty for living in sin, the death of the soul.
Note the apostle James (Jacob) understood and taught this.
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
Sin brings the DEATH OF THE SOUL.
Remember:
The soul that sins shall DIE. Ezekiel 18:4
KeptByTheWord
10-26-2014, 10:15 AM
I would like to add this scripture to this discussion
Romans 1:29-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Sins mentioned that are worthy of "DEATH". This is a theme that you can see over and over when Paul mentions fleshly sins.
Prov. 11:19 "As righteousness tendeth to life; so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death."
Perhaps the best verse of all:
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Death = the wages of sin
Life = the gift of God through Jesus Christ
This is why "hell fire and brimstone" was not preached by the apostles, instead the early church understood and knew the concept that ETERNAL LIFE was their hope, and recognized that DEATH awaited anyone who chose not to believe and follow in Jesus.
Esaias
10-26-2014, 01:52 PM
I would like to add this scripture to this discussion
Romans 1:29-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Sins mentioned that are worthy of "DEATH". This is a theme that you can see over and over when Paul mentions fleshly sins.
Prov. 11:19 "As righteousness tendeth to life; so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death."
Perhaps the best verse of all:
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Death = the wages of sin
Life = the gift of God through Jesus Christ
This is why "hell fire and brimstone" was not preached by the apostles, instead the early church understood and knew the concept that ETERNAL LIFE was their hope, and recognized that DEATH awaited anyone who chose not to believe and follow in Jesus.
And they taught Jesus' own words that the wicked will face death and used a non-stop burning garbage dump to illustrate it.
Paul said the Lord is coming and in flaming fire will take vengeance on those who know not God nor obey the gospel.
They did not teach eternal life in hell but everlasting destruction at the hands of our God who is a CONSUMING FIRE.
Truthseeker
10-26-2014, 02:19 PM
And they taught Jesus' own words that the wicked will face death and used a non-stop burning garbage dump to illustrate it.
Paul said the Lord is coming and in flaming fire will take vengeance on those who know not God nor obey the gospel.
They did not teach eternal life in hell but everlasting destruction at the hands of our God who is a CONSUMING FIRE.
Is he a literal fire tormenting sinners?
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 KJV
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Sounds like the everlasting destruction has to do with recompensing them troubled them. Happens at the coming. Didn't sound like the traditional hell that is taught today.
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2014, 04:46 PM
I would like to add this scripture to this discussion
Romans 1:29-32
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Sins mentioned that are worthy of "DEATH". This is a theme that you can see over and over when Paul mentions fleshly sins.
Prov. 11:19 "As righteousness tendeth to life; so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death."
Perhaps the best verse of all:
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Death = the wages of sin
Life = the gift of God through Jesus Christ
This is why "hell fire and brimstone" was not preached by the apostles, instead the early church understood and knew the concept that ETERNAL LIFE was their hope, and recognized that DEATH awaited anyone who chose not to believe and follow in Jesus.
Yes amen!
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2014, 05:15 PM
And they taught Jesus' own words that the wicked will face death and used a non-stop burning garbage dump to illustrate it.
Paul said the Lord is coming and in flaming fire will take vengeance on those who know not God nor obey the gospel.
They did not teach eternal life in hell but everlasting destruction at the hands of our God who is a CONSUMING FIRE.
Yes Bro exactly right!
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2014, 07:24 PM
As for everlasting destruction meaning a burning fire, not sure what that means. The bible (old and new) uses fire as the metaphor for God's destruction of the wicked. John saw a lake of fire. Daniel saw a river of fire. Jesus spoke of a burning garbage dump. Isaiah spoke of everlasting burnings. Seems pretty clear
Reminds me of this:
Psalms 21:9
9Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Kind of making a long story short. The fire devours or "consumes".
Abiding Now
10-26-2014, 07:32 PM
I'm sure the rich man in Luke 16:19 -31 "and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" and "I am tormented in this flame" probably wished that the fire of hell would "destroy him".
Truthseeker
10-26-2014, 08:36 PM
I'm sure the rich man in Luke 16:19 -31 "and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" and "I am tormented in this flame" probably wished that the fire of hell would "destroy him".
Could a man in a fire carry on a conversation?
Could a man in a fire carry on a conversation?
Yes
Truthseeker
10-26-2014, 10:46 PM
Yes
Sure :thumbsup
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 05:47 AM
I'm sure the rich man in Luke 16:19 -31 "and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" and "I am tormented in this flame" probably wished that the fire of hell would "destroy him".
Nothing in the parable says the rich man had now attained immortality. Only that at present he was tormented in flame. It was just a parable to show there would be punishment or reward in the afterlife.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 05:55 AM
I'm sure the rich man in Luke 16:19 -31 "and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" and "I am tormented in this flame" probably wished that the fire of hell would "destroy him".
Would you like to address the fact that the only time Paul mentions "Hades" is when Christians are brought out of it at the resurrection?
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:12 AM
Probably the main stumbling block for people to see this truth of eternal destrutction (annihilation) is Gods perception of time is not ours.
Forever in Hebrew means something like "to the horizon", like as far as the eye can see.
Jonah the Prophet confessed he went to Hell forever!
2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6
Yet Jesus telling the same story said he was there 3 days.
12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40
The difference is in this.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8
Between God and Jonah those 3 days were like forever! Like they would never end. Yet Jesus (who put Jonah there) later says it all happened in 3 days.
In the time of judgment we should consider with God one day is as a thousand years but a thousand years is as a day. Some may be in Gehenna a long, long time. Others may be destroyed in a day.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:17 AM
Part 1
My study isnt as scholarly as many but it is straight to the point.
Allow me to build a bit of foundation. We see in the gospels both Yeshua and John the Baptist preaching about punishment of fire for the wicked. The big question is where did they get the doctrine? If we can find their REFERENCE POINT we will understand their meaning. The last Prophet before Yeshua and John was MALACHI. I believe much of their doctrine in this matter is referenced back to him.
For behold the DAY cometh that shall BURN AS AN OVEN: and all the proud yea and all THAT DO WICKEDLY shall be STUBBLE: and the DAY that cometh shall BURN THEM UP saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts. MALACHI 4:1-3
Notice Malachi's emphasis is on THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. Keeping this in mind lets go to the gospels and visit the teaching of Yeshua and John.
And now also the ax is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. John the Baptist in Matt.3:10
The enemy that sowed them is the devil: the harvest is the end of the world: and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the TARES are gathered and BURNED IN THE FIRE so shall it be in the end of this world. Matt.13:39-40
So shall it be at the end of the world the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt.13:49-50
Whose fan is in his hand and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner, but THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN with fire unquenchable. John in Luke 3:17
Now my question is where did Yeshua and John get the concepts of the FURNACE OF FIRE? Was it not the same as Malachi's Fiery OVEN?
How about the concept of THE TARES and THE CHAFF? Is it not the same as Malachi's STUBBLE? If they are indeed referring back to Malachi his prophetic words carried the message of the DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED as opposed to their never ending torment.
This harmonizes with what GOD had already declared to be the punishment of sin.
Behold all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. Ezekiel 18:4
If Yeshua and John were not referring back to Malachi, where was their reference point?
And fear not them which KILL the body but are not able to KILL the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both SOUL AND BODY IN HELL. Matt.10:28
It was no doubt the destruction of the wicked in Malachi's OVEN Yeshua had in mind.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:24 AM
Note Nehemiah 9:5
Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever:
They told the people to bless the Lord for how long? FOR EVER AND EVER.
Are they still standing there today? THINK ABOUT IT.
I know its hard to accept something you have always heard was false. When I was a Trinitarian there seemed to be plenty of evidence for my belief. The problem was I was working from a wrong foundation. As I began to study from scripture and forget what men were saying my picture of God began to change.
Why? I found the bottom line. The true point of reference.
It works the same with any truth. The bottom line of the punishment for the wicked is given plainly in the Old and New Covenant scriptures as being the death of the wicked.
When you get that. Then you can more clearly interpret the doctrine.
Apostolics should be very concerned that the one who wrote most of the New Covenant scriptures never once mentiond burning through all eternity. He was very consistent in all his writings that the DESTRUCTION of the wicked would be their judgment.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:31 AM
And if thy hand offend thee cut it off:it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell into the FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED: Where their worm dieth not and the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:43-44
Can we find an Old Testament reference for this?
If so we can understand his meaning.
The reference here goes back to Isaiah 66.
Part 2
For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me saith the Lord so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have TRANSGRESSED against me: for their worm shall not die neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED. And they shall be an abhoring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24
This is the ONLY OTHER REFERENCE POINT for hell that I know of in the Old Testament.
The hell Yeshua speaks of in Mark 9 is GEHENNA.This was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem.
All of the trash as well as bodies of criminals were thrown into it.
In course of time the Jews connected Gehenna with the FIRE OVEN of MALACHI.
The CARCASES Isaiah speaks of are DEAD BODIES! A CARCASE is the remains of a dead body.
People living in the coming kingdom will periodically look out on this sight of the TRANSGRESSORS who had to be destroyed as a solemn warning against sin.
The worm that dieth not is simply showing worms may live off CARCASSES.
Let us look at the phrase FIRE SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED in biblical context.
But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day and not to bear a burden even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof and it shall DEVOUR the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Jer.17:27
The Chaldeans came and burned the city. Jer.39:8
Is that unquenchable FIRE still burning today?
The FIRE THAT SHALL NOT BE QUENCED means NOTHING can put it out.
But when it finishes the job GOD gives it to do it will go out of itself.
So again this biblical reference about hell teaches us of the DESTRUCTION of the wicked.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:37 AM
Part 3
The same shall drink of the wine of THE WRATH OF GOD which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev.14:10-11
How are we to interpret this?
For ever here is greek 165 in Strongs Concordance. The meaning of for ever is AN AGE.
How long is an age? It depends on context.
Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26
Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old.
Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES. So within that 4000 years were contained at least 2 if not more AGES or For evers.
These beast worshippers could suffer in the fire and brimstone for AGES OR FOR EVERS and then still ultimatley DIE. I believe this will be the case.
Again the length of for ever is determined by context.
If thousands of years of our way of thinking qualifies as for ever such as in Col.1:26
could it be even shorter in GODS way of thinking?
But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing,that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS and a THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.
2 Peter3:8
How long will the wicked suffer in the lake of fire before death and would it be different according to the sentence of GOD against them are interesting questions.
However long they may live in the furnace of fire scripture teaches they WILL FINALLY DIE. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is THE SECOND DEATH. REV.20:14
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:38 AM
Part 4
Other Apostolic writings.
What did apostle James say about eternal judgement?
This is all I can find.
Let him know that he which coverteth the SINNER from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20
James the Lords brother believed sin led to the DEATH OF THE SOUL not to eternal life in hell.
But these as natural brute beasts made to be TAKEN AND DESTROYED speak evil of those things they understand not,and shall UTTERLY PERISH in their own corruption. 2 Peter 2:12
But the heavens and the earth which are now,by the same word are kept in store reserved unto fire against the day of judgement AND PERDITION of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7
Apostle Peter says the ungodly will be destroyed.
Nothing in his writings about immortality in hell for the lost.
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2014, 06:39 AM
Part 5
What is OUTER DARKNESS?
Has anyone noticed the phrase OUTER DARKNESS in scripture?
It is pointed out as the fate of the lost.
How can two things as different as being in a lake of fire and being in OUTER DARKNESS BOTH be the fate of the lost?
This revelation opens the eyes of our understanding to the truth of eternal judgement.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS: There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.8:12
These are wells without water,clouds that are carried with a tempest,to whom THE MIST OF DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOREVER. 2 Peter2:17
Raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame,wandering stars, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER. Jude :13
What happened to the lake of fire?
Actually DARKNESS is at times used as a metaphor for DEATH.
If I wait the GRAVE IS MINE HOUSE:I have made my bed IN DARKNESS. I have said to corruption thou art my father,to the worm thou art my mother and my sister.
And where is now my hope?as for my hope who shall see it?
They shall go down to the bars of the pit when our REST TOGETHER IS IN THE DUST. Job 17:13-16
Though WHILE HE LIVED he blessed his soul:and men will praise thee when thou doest well to thyself.
He shall go to the generation of his fathers,they SHALL NEVER SEE LIGHT. Psalms 49:18-19
His roots shall be dried up from beneath and above his branch CUT OFF. His rememberance shall perish from the earth and he shall have no name in the street.
He shall be driven from LIGHT INTO DARKNESS and chased OUT OF THE WORLD. Job 18:16-18
So the answer is that when Yeshua,Peter,and Jude proclaim that DARKNESS AWAITS THE LOST they are speaking from the viewpoint that THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE.
They will FIRST DIE THE SECOND DEATH in the lake of fire.
Then they will pass out of existence and INTO THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER.
For the wages of sin is DEATH,BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. Romans 6:23
Abiding Now
10-27-2014, 09:20 AM
Nothing in the parable says the rich man had now attained immortality. Only that at present he was tormented in flame. It was just a parable to show there would be punishment or reward in the afterlife.
Easy there, there's nothing mentioned in Luke 16:19- about this story being "a parable".
Truthseeker
10-27-2014, 08:41 PM
Nothing says it is not.
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