Forgiveness only happens with Forgiveness [Archive]

jfrog

12-02-2014, 03:08 AM

MarkBelosa

12-02-2014, 03:52 AM

You can be a forgiving person but without faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, you still cannot obtain forgiveness.
Forgiving others is part of becoming Christlike. It doesn't mean that you earn God's forgiveness because of your "act" of forgiving others. An unforgiving spirit is rooted in pride. And pride is sin. One cannot be proud and repentant at the same time.

jfrog

12-02-2014, 04:45 AM

You can be a forgiving person but without faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, you still cannot obtain forgiveness

I never implied you could.

Forgiving others is part of becoming Christlike. It doesn't mean that you earn God's forgiveness because of your "act" of forgiving others.

But Jesus said we would not be forgiven if we did not forgive others. Call it what you want but if you want forgiveness you better be doing what Jesus says is required.

MarkBelosa

12-02-2014, 04:53 AM

jfrog

12-02-2014, 05:12 AM

Yup. And I didn't say it was implied in your post either. :-) Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. And let me add... I'm not sure if it's even possible for a person to receive the Holy Ghost if he is harboring bitterness in his heart.

Well if he's repented and been baptized then it's promised to him. So I guess we better put this back at repentance. Do you really believe a person must forgive every single person that has wronged them or that they didn't truly repent?

MarkBelosa

12-02-2014, 05:23 AM

Well if he's repented and been baptized then it's promised to him. So I guess we better put this back at repentance. Do you really believe a person must forgive every single person that has wronged them or that they didn't truly repent?

If a person is aware that he has not forgiven someone, and chooses to harbor an unforgiving attitude, he has not truly repented. If he will allow the Lord to search his heart, the Lord will call his attention on certain things or situations that he needs to surrender to Him, including forgiving everyone that has wronged him.

shazeep

12-02-2014, 07:15 AM

amen
You can be a forgiving person but without faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, you still cannot obtain forgiveness.What is 'faith in Christ,' or 'obedience to the Gospel?' I submit that these are some religious words, that religious people say--quite possibly even meaning them; and even in those cases, quite possibly hypocritical. So, i look for forgiving people, over the other, to be called 'faithful servant.'

"With the measure you use, it will be measured to you," so I'm not sure how you might justify this statement? Although surely i am just lost in the semantics here, i think the first one may largely come from the other two. Or wholly.

shazeep

12-02-2014, 07:22 AM

Jesus said we would not be forgiven if we did not forgive others. Call it what you want but if you want forgiveness you better be doing what Jesus says is required.amen, and trust that all the other is only just words to get one to see this. Many, many, will be called 'faithful servant' who never said the words we consider essential for salvation. While Scripture in places would seem to place great importance upon these words, i think it is to the concept that the words speak, and It also describes this concept in many places as not being relevant to what phrases one says, but what one does. You cannot accept Christ with your mouth.

Jermyn Davidson

12-02-2014, 11:33 AM

Yup. And I didn't say it was implied in your post either. :-) Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. And let me add... I'm not sure if it's even possible for a person to receive the Holy Ghost if he is harboring bitterness in his heart.

I think the chambers of a man's heart can hide many, many things.

GOD may know about them, but a man may not know his own heart.

I think a person can be saved, in spite of what is going on deep in the recesses of man's heart.

God's Plan for a man's life has many twists and turns sometimes.

Abiding Now

12-02-2014, 11:50 AM

UNforgiveness hinders our prayers.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Jermyn Davidson

12-02-2014, 12:32 PM

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?

MarkBelosa

12-02-2014, 04:32 PM

How does this reconcile with the thought that we are forgiven by Christ dying for our sins? Was Christ's death alone not enough, must we still forgive others in order to obtain forgiveness as Jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15?

Any thoughts or opinions or comments?

amen
What is 'faith in Christ,' or 'obedience to the Gospel?' I submit that these are some religious words, that religious people say--quite possibly even meaning them; and even in those cases, quite possibly hypocritical. So, i look for forgiving people, over the other, to be called 'faithful servant.'

"With the measure you use, it will be measured to you," so I'm not sure how you might justify this statement? Although surely i am just lost in the semantics here, i think the first one may largely come from the other two. Or wholly.

Correct me if I am wrong but the original post read like forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

When I mentioned faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, I was talking about how a person gains entrance to the kingdom.

faith in Christ (accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior)
gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus)
obedience to the gospel (repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name, Spirit baptism)

Salvation for me has past, present, and future tenses.
I can say that I was saved (through faith and obedience to the gospel)
I am saved (freedom from the power of sin; I am no longer slave to it)
I will be saved (resurrection/glorification)

Of course, forgiveness is important and it is part of holy living (inward holiness or Christlikeness). And as previously pointed out from one of the other posts, an unforgiving spirit hinders our prayers. I only said what I said because of the question "Was Christ's death alone not enough?"

Forgiving others, I would say falls under repentance if we are to talk about entrance to the kingdom.
Once saved, a Christian must continue to practice it, else, he won't be forgiven if commits sin again, and this would endanger his soul. He might lose his salvation.

Hope this clarifies it.

MarkBelosa

12-02-2014, 04:45 PM

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?

Is it possible to be blinded by one's desires? The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

An un-regenerated man may possibly be blinded or become unaware of having bitterness esp after a long time. A born again Christian, on the other hand, would probably be more aware of what's going on in his heart and mind because God is light and he exposes that which is in the dark. If a Christian refuses to follow the voice of God's Spirit, his heart may become hardened and he might become blind to his own ways. Just my thoughts.

thephnxman

12-02-2014, 06:04 PM

We all know these verses but I don't think anyone ever ponders enough on their doctrinal significance.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Repentance and baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit aren't enough. We must forgive others or we will not be forgiven. How does this reconcile with the thought that we are forgiven by Christ dying for our sins? Was Christ's death alone not enough, must we still forgive others in order to obtain forgiveness as Jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15?
Any thoughts or opinions or comments?

Repentance, baptism in Jesus' NAME, and receiving the Holy Spirit is definitely enough for salvation. Surely the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has redeemed (bought) ALL men: but not all men are saved. It is the gospel that saves; it is the doctrine that keeps us saved.

Matt. 6:14, is the calling to repent; in it we repent of having offended God, and we must come to terms of also having been offended. If we cannot forgive those who offended us, neither have we truly repented of having offended God! In other words, we must show mercy, to obtain mercy.

"Mercy rejoices against judgment." Surely all men have sinned; all men deserve the punishment of death. But mercy suspended God's righteous judgment, until grace entered our hearts.

jfrog

12-02-2014, 06:43 PM

Repentance, baptism in Jesus' NAME, and receiving the Holy Spirit is definitely enough for salvation. Surely the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has redeemed (bought) ALL men: but not all men are saved. It is the gospel that saves; it is the doctrine that keeps us saved.

Matt. 6:14, is the calling to repent; in it we repent of having offended God, and we must come to terms of also having been offended. If we cannot forgive those who offended us, neither have we truly repented of having offended God! In other words, we must show mercy, to obtain mercy.

"Mercy rejoices against judgment." Surely all men have sinned; all men deserve the punishment of death. But mercy suspended God's righteous judgment, until grace entered our hearts.

Then what do you make of Jesus words? If you forgive others the father will forgive you. If you don't forgive others the father will not forgive you.

In other words if a man has repented been baptized and received the Holy Ghost but doesn't forgive others doesnt that mean that according to Jesus that God won't forgive him?

shazeep

12-02-2014, 06:50 PM

amen--especially today, imo, when those first three have been so distorted. Or a better way to put it might be that the message that brought the candidates for the first three has been so distorted.
Correct me if I am wrong but the original post read like forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

When I mentioned faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, I was talking about how a person gains entrance to the kingdom.

faith in Christ (accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior)
gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus)
obedience to the gospel (repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name, Spirit baptism)

Salvation for me has past, present, and future tenses.
I can say that I was saved (through faith and obedience to the gospel)
I am saved (freedom from the power of sin; I am no longer slave to it)
I will be saved (resurrection/glorification)

Of course, forgiveness is important and it is part of holy living (inward holiness or Christlikeness). And as previously pointed out from one of the other posts, an unforgiving spirit hinders our prayers. I only said what I said because of the question "Was Christ's death alone not enough?"

Forgiving others, I would say falls under repentance if we are to talk about entrance to the kingdom.
Once saved, a Christian must continue to practice it, else, he won't be forgiven if commits sin again, and this would endanger his soul. He might lose his salvation.

Hope this clarifies it.well, nicely put. But--being deliberately obtuse here--what is 'saved' then? i think forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

shazeep

12-02-2014, 06:52 PM

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?'hateful' easily becomes justified as 'righteous indignation,' etc. in many minds.

thephnxman

12-02-2014, 11:04 PM

Then what do you make of Jesus words? If you forgive others the father will forgive you. If you don't forgive others the father will not forgive you.
In other words if a man has repented been baptized and received the Holy Ghost but doesn't forgive others doesnt that mean that according to Jesus that God won't forgive him?

A person repents: has agreed that he is a sinner needing salvation; that, essentially he is wrong and God is right;
The person is baptized: the sins are remitted, has, believed and accepted the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus;
Received the Holy Spirit: in other words, has been received into the kingdom of God.

(1) If the person was offended PRIOR to repentance: it seems that God has accepted that person: I would not try to judge him/her. There is "...a sin not unto death....
(2) If the person was offended AFTER salvation, and harbors ill will: then there is a "...sin unto death...": and the church must pray for his/her repentance.

What we must guard against is judging anyone based on just ONE solitary scripture. Remember: "Let every word be established by the mouth of two witnesses or three." These must be NEUTRAL witnesses!

jfrog

12-03-2014, 12:02 AM

A person repents: has agreed that he is a sinner needing salvation; that, essentially he is wrong and God is right;
The person is baptized: the sins are remitted, has, believed and accepted the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus;
Received the Holy Spirit: in other words, has been received into the kingdom of God.

(1) If the person was offended PRIOR to repentance: it seems that God has accepted that person: I would not try to judge him/her. There is "...a sin not unto death....
(2) If the person was offended AFTER salvation, and harbors ill will: then there is a "...sin unto death...": and the church must pray for his/her repentance.

What we must guard against is judging anyone based on just ONE solitary scripture. Remember: "Let every word be established by the mouth of two witnesses or three." These must be NEUTRAL witnesses!

And yet Jesus said if you do not forgive others then the Father will not forgive you. Talk about his blood and crucifixion and sacrifice and your faith in him all you want but if you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven. Jesus said that not me.

You want another witness? In the gospel of Mark, Jesus says the same thing.

jfrog

12-03-2014, 12:24 AM

It's amazing to me how many say Jesus was wrong about forgiveness in Matthew 6:14-15

thephnxman

12-03-2014, 09:27 AM

And yet Jesus said if you do not forgive others then the Father will not forgive you. Talk about his blood and crucifixion and sacrifice and your faith in him all you want but if you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven. Jesus said that not me.
You want another witness? In the gospel of Mark, Jesus says the same thing.

Beloved, it seems to me that you made a blanket statement on forgiveness.

I want to qualify my answer and be more explicit: for I guess to you it seems that I was just beating around the bush. Here goes:

Baptism, which is for remission of sins, will not avail the unrepentant sinner anything. Remission, like the Holy Spirit, is offered: but remission of sins will not be attained, and the Holy Spirit will be there only to convict of sin.

However, for the saint: We have the scriptures: "...we have an advocate with the Father...and if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Do you see the two-fold work of the Lord? He will not only forgive (is faithful), but will also cleanse (is just). In other words, the Lord will also root out the spirit of unforgiveness.

I hope this answer helps.

votivesoul

12-04-2014, 07:54 AM

There is no salvation outside of forgiving others. In Matthew 18, Jesus told the parable of the unjust steward who the master sent off to prison to be tortured for his unforgiveness of a small debt, after he was forgiven a great debt.

Jesus said "so shall my heavenly Father do unto you, if you don't, from your heart, forgive every man his trespasses against you" (quoting from memory).

God will send every man to the prison of hell to be tormented if we don't forgive others their small debts against us, when after all God forgive our monumental, unpayable debt against Him.

I have seen born again believers be so delivered up. They are mentally and spiritually tormented every day of their life; theirs is an existence of pure agony, all because they refused to forgive others.

Jesus wasn't lying, nor was He mistaken. Fear Him who can destroy both your body and soul in hell.

shazeep

12-04-2014, 09:17 AM

amen. i would like to add that this may very well happen in the now--Understand I AM.

"I have seen born again believers be so delivered up. They are mentally and spiritually tormented every day of their life; theirs is an existence of pure agony, all because they refused to forgive others"

sounds like hell to me; shall it eternally be so.

votivesoul

12-04-2014, 11:25 AM

shazeep

12-04-2014, 11:42 AM

HA! well that was a curve ball... :D

thephnxman

12-05-2014, 08:16 AM

Received exactly as it was meant. Well done. :)

You forgot to say, "grasshopper".

shazeep

12-05-2014, 10:00 AM

:lol hey, i'm thrilled that the concept is finally emerging--I'll take it!

jfrog

12-09-2014, 04:25 AM

Compare Matthew 18:21-35 and Matthew 6:14-15

Matthew 6:14-15
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

-------------------------------------------------------
How much more clear can Jesus' parable be: Fail to forgive others and even though God has in the past forgiven you for your debt he will refuse to maintain that forgiveness and thus you will revert to being unforgiven and owing God in full.

Aquila

12-09-2014, 02:43 PM

Well if he's repented and been baptized then it's promised to him. So I guess we better put this back at repentance. Do you really believe a person must forgive every single person that has wronged them or that they didn't truly repent?

Seeing that we are one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17) and that we are branches of the true vine (John 15:5), Jesus Christ, we should ask... What would Jesus do? We are to be conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus, being living extensions of Him. So yes... I believe that one is called to forgive every person and every wrong... even to the point of truly loving one's enemies.

This is not an easy path. It is about crucifying the self that Christ might live... in us.