"in the Spirit"

[mizpeh]

What does it mean to be "in the Spirit"?

What does it mean to be "praying in the Spirit"?

Is "praying in the Spirit" the exact same thing as praying in tongues?



"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" Revelation 1:10

"praying in the Holy Spirit" Jude 1:20

"Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?" 1Corinthians 14: 13-16

[mfblume]

I believe praying in the Spirit is indeed praying in tongues.

Walking in the Spirit and after the Spirit means living a life before God without reliance on law-keeping methodology, but instead relying upon God's empowering grace to do good and avoid evil.

In the Spirit, generally speaking, I believe means a person is in deep communion with God and genuinely fellowshiping with Him in prayer.

[Aquila]

I'll share my thoughts. Essentially the same as Bro. Blume's. I just word it a little different.

Praying in the Spirit is praying as the Spirit leads you to pray, be it in tongues or your native language.

To be "in the Spirit" means to be in present and conscious awareness of the abiding presence of the Spirit within you. Having the Spirit we realize that Christ is in the Father, the Father in Christ, and Christ in us... through the Spirit. This abiding in us is more than merely the Spirit dwelling within us, it is the Spirit's presence and permeation of our spiritual being, our inner man. Through this abiding reality we become one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17) and branches of the vine, Jesus Christ (John 15:5). These realities being so, we realize that we are living extensions of Christ Himself. Being in present conscious awareness of this spiritual reality is being "in the Spirit".

And "walking in the Spirit" is allowing the abiding presence of the Spirit to lead and guide you in your thoughts, actions, and decisions. It is the opposite of living in accordance to the law, as Bro. Blume stated. It is the daily, moment by moment, willingness to follow the Spirit's will and leading in all things as opposed to any codified list of laws, standards, or regulations.

[mizpeh]

I believe praying in the Spirit is indeed praying in tongues.

Walking in the Spirit and after the Spirit means living a life before God without reliance on law-keeping methodology, but instead relying upon God's empowering grace to do good and avoid evil.

In the Spirit, generally speaking, I believe means a person is in deep communion with God and genuinely fellowshiping with Him in prayer.

What about those saints who have not spoken in tongues since their initial infilling...those who do not have the gift of tongues? Does that mean that they can never pray in the Spirit?

[mizpeh]

I'll share my thoughts. Essentially the same as Bro. Blume's. I just word it a little different.

Praying in the Spirit is praying as the Spirit leads you to pray, be it in tongues or your native language.

To be "in the Spirit" means to be in present and conscious awareness of the abiding presence of the Spirit within you. Having the Spirit we realize that Christ is in the Father, the Father in Christ, and Christ in us... through the Spirit. This abiding in us is more than merely the Spirit dwelling within us, it is the Spirit's presence and permeation of our spiritual being, our inner man. Through this abiding reality we become one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17) and branches of the vine, Jesus Christ (John 15:5). These realities being so, we realize that we are living extensions of Christ Himself. Being in present conscious awareness of this spiritual reality is being "in the Spirit".

And "walking in the Spirit" is allowing the abiding presence of the Spirit to lead and guide you in your thoughts, actions, and decisions. It is the opposite of living in accordance to the law, as Bro. Blume stated. It is the daily, moment by moment, willingness to follow the Spirit's will and leading in all things as opposed to any codified list of laws, standards, or regulations.

:highfive Well said.

[Esaias]

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Esaias]

Ezekiel 36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

[Esaias]

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Esaias]

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/against-law/

[Michael The Disciple]

What about those saints who have not spoken in tongues since their initial infilling...those who do not have the gift of tongues? Does that mean that they can never pray in the Spirit?

An example of what false teaching does. If one understands the Apostles teaching they would see themselves being COMMANDED to pray in tongues ALWAYS!

Paul defined praying in the spirit as praying in tongues. Then he commands the Ephesian Christians to pray in the spirit ALWAYS.

Jude tells his readers the same thing.

Today many if not most who think they are "Apostolic" have been taught they will only speak in tongues one time and thats it, robbing them of all the edifying power God has for them.

[shazeep]

and you personally have seen fruit from this? Ty.

[KeptByTheWord]

and you personally have seen fruit from this? Ty.

I have seen lots of "praying in the spirit in tongues" from people who got up from their place of prayer not demonstrating any fruit of the spirit, but fruit of the flesh. Sickening really, and that is what gives "tongue-talkers" such a bad name, in my opinion. Too many have figured out how to speak a few words "in tongues", but their heart has never undergone a spiritual transformation.

However, I do know that there is a deep spiritual level of the heart that can be transformed by spending time in prayer, and in speaking in tongues. But... the outward fruit of such prayer is more the evidence that one has been in the spirit than the prayer itself, in my opinion.

[mfblume]

What about those saints who have not spoken in tongues since their initial infilling...those who do not have the gift of tongues? Does that mean that they can never pray in the Spirit?

I do not believe a person has been filled with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues. Paul spoke of praying in the Spirit in the same manner I believe the Apostles spoke of Holy Ghost baptism. It's meant for everyone. He spoke of prayer in tongues, which is the entire context of 1 Cor 14, as something everyone should do. However, not everyone has yet received the Spirit..

That's just the way I see it. I cannot see infilling without tongues, personally.

[mfblume]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context above shows praying in tongues to be something in which our understanding is unfruitful. IOW, praying WITH understanding is not praying in tongues. We cannot even understand what we are praying, ourselves, when we pray in tongues.

Notice he said HIS SPIRIT is praying when he prayed in tongues. That is what must be carried over into the next verse when we read about [praying in the spirit. He said that was contrasted from his understanding. So, if he prayed in tongues and his spirit prayed and his understanding was unfruitful, then the next verse speaking about praying in the SPIRIT is praying in tongues! And praying with the understanding is contrasted from praying in tongues, and refers to praying with understanding which means praying in our native language. We can understand our own native language. We see that by contrasting praying with understanding from praying in spirit. So, praying in the spirit cannot refer to praying in our native language. Context disallows that in these two verses.

[mizpeh]

I do not believe a person has been filled with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues. Paul spoke of praying in the Spirit in the same manner I believe the Apostles spoke of Holy Ghost baptism. It's meant for everyone. He spoke of prayer in tongues, which is the entire context of 1 Cor 14, as something everyone should do. However, not everyone has yet received the Spirit..

That's just the way I see it. I cannot see infilling without tongues, personally.

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues. So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear. :)

[mfblume]

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues.

I do not believe a person needs the gift of tongues to continue to speak in tongues after they received the Spirit. I do not have the gift of tongues, but I speak in tongues all the time in prayer. The gift of tongues is only for use with an interpretation to follow, from what I see laid out in scripture.


So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear. :)

I get your point. But according to 1 Cor 14, and the 2 verses I quote earlier, I believe a person simply is not praying in the spirit if they are not praying in tongues.

[Esaias]

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

Nowhere is praying in the spirit defined as "praying in tongues". Although praying in tongues is praying in the spirit, the reverse is not true.

For example: Although all genuine miracles are works of the Spirit, not all works of the Spirit are miracles. Although all prophesying is speaking in the Spirit, not all speaking in the Spirit is prophesying.

So the apostle rightly states that if he prays, sings, or speaks in tongues, then he is praying, singing, and speaking in the spirit, because all those activities are done "in the spirit". But it would be an error to say all speaking, praying, or singing in the spirit must necessarily be in tongues.

Further, "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" does not mean ALL praying in the spirit is unintelligible, otherwise it would mean all praying that is understandable is done WITHOUT THE SPIRIT, which is absurd. For if that were true, no praying would be useful or acceptable unless it was wholly in unknown tongues! What he is saying is plain: if he prays in tongues he is praying in the spirit, BUT his understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the ONLY passage in all the bible that talks about praying in tongues is in the heart of a teaching on the superiority of prophesying to tongues, surrounded by instructions for tongue-talker to PRAY FOR INTERPRETATION.

[Esaias]

Ephesians 5
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Here the apostle commands us to be filled with the spirit, and gives several key identifying marks of being spirit-filled: speaking to one another in song; expressing thanks to God through Jesus; and submitting to one another in godly reverence. While these are not the only signs of being spirit-filled, they were important enough to be listed. Praying in tongues obviously was NOT important enough to be listed there.

[Esaias]

Anyone who has ever experienced travailing intercessory prayer knows that praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Perhaps not enough people have experienced genuine travailing intercessory prayer, so the only praying in the spirit they know is tongues?

[Esaias]

Ephesians 6
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.

Here we are commanded to pray with ALL prayer and supplication "in the spirit". If praying in the spirit always and only means in tongues, then here is proof that we are to ONLY pray in tongues. But that is obviously not true. Notice we are to watch unto praying in the spirit making supplication for all saints. Paul wanted the brethren at Ephesus to include praying for him and his ministry. THIS COULD NOT BE OBEYED IF ALL PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT IS IN UNKNOWN TONGUES. Therefore, praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues.

[Aquila]

An example of what false teaching does. If one understands the Apostles teaching they would see themselves being COMMANDED to pray in tongues ALWAYS!

Paul defined praying in the spirit as praying in tongues. Then he commands the Ephesian Christians to pray in the spirit ALWAYS.

Jude tells his readers the same thing.

Today many if not most who think they are "Apostolic" have been taught they will only speak in tongues one time and thats it, robbing them of all the edifying power God has for them.

While I agree with the general premise, that we should regularly pray in tongues (which I truly enjoy), I do believe that one can be "in the Spirit" and not speak in tongues. One can be "in the Spirit" while preaching, sitting quietly, while contemplating, while meditating on Scripture, while Studying Scripture, and while simply praying quietly or in their native tongue.

[Aquila]

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

Nowhere is praying in the spirit defined as "praying in tongues". Although praying in tongues is praying in the spirit, the reverse is not true.

For example: Although all genuine miracles are works of the Spirit, not all works of the Spirit are miracles. Although all prophesying is speaking in the Spirit, not all speaking in the Spirit is prophesying.

So the apostle rightly states that if he prays, sings, or speaks in tongues, then he is praying, singing, and speaking in the spirit, because all those activities are done "in the spirit". But it would be an error to say all speaking, praying, or singing in the spirit must necessarily be in tongues.

Further, "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" does not mean ALL praying in the spirit is unintelligible, otherwise it would mean all praying that is understandable is done WITHOUT THE SPIRIT, which is absurd. For if that were true, no praying would be useful or acceptable unless it was wholly in unknown tongues! What he is saying is plain: if he prays in tongues he is praying in the spirit, BUT his understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the ONLY passage in all the bible that talks about praying in tongues is in the heart of a teaching on the superiority of prophesying to tongues, surrounded by instructions for tongue-talker to PRAY FOR INTERPRETATION.

I've often wonder if the indication that Paul's, "understanding being unfruitful", meant that he couldn't understand himself... or could it mean that what he said in tongues was unfruitful for those listening?

Just thinking here... not being dogmatic or argumentative.

[Aquila]

Anyone who has ever experienced travailing intercessory prayer knows that praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Perhaps not enough people have experienced genuine travailing intercessory prayer, so the only praying in the spirit they know is tongues?

Excellent post.

[Aquila]

Here's a question:

If "praying in the Spirit" is always "praying in tongues"... does this mean that when we pray in English... we're not in the Spirit?

[Pressing-On]

Anyone who has ever experienced travailing intercessory prayer knows that praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Perhaps not enough people have experienced genuine travailing intercessory prayer, so the only praying in the spirit they know is tongues?

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

[mfblume]

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

In context of what he meant in 1 Cor 14 about praying in the spirit, it was solely tongues. That same phrase is not found anywhere else. But I agree being in the spirit does not necessarily mean in tongues. But prayer in tongues in this chapter does state that.

[mfblume]

Here's a question:

If "praying in the Spirit" is always "praying in tongues"... does this mean that when we pray in English... we're not in the Spirit?

You're praying with the understanding when in your native language.

[mfblume]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[Pressing-On]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. ]it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.[/U]

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[mizpeh]

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.
Here is a scripture that lets us know that deep spiritual prayer doesn't have to include speaking in tongues.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

[Pressing-On]

Here is a scripture that lets us know that deep spiritual prayer doesn't have to include speaking in tongues.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.

[Aquila]

You're praying with the understanding when in your native language.

Yes, I know about praying with the understanding. But isn't all prayer to be Spirit led and spoken "in the Spirit"?

I've been overwhelmed with the Spirit's abiding presence while singing, witnessing, preaching, teaching, praying, etc. In all these instances, I was "in the Spirit". I've even received visions and spiritual impressions while being "in the Spirit". While tongues is definitely something that can only happen while in the Spirit... it isn't the only thing that can happen while one is in the Spirit.

[Aquila]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

It isn't strictly one's own spirit that is praying. In fact, the Holy Spirit is also interceding.

Romans 8:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

How is it that it is considered to be our spirit praying, yet the Holy Spirit may also make intercession through us and our prayers? We read...

1 Corinthians 6:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

He is truly the Vine... and we are the branches. Living extensions of Him. The Spirit prays and speaks through our spirit when tongues are taking place. This is also seen when coupled with interpretation. It is the Spirit that is speaking through His abiding presence in our spirit, our inner man. This realization broke upon me after God began using me with regards to tongues and interpretation.

That being said, even when we pray with understanding (as the Spirit leads), we are praying "in the Spirit".

[mizpeh]

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.But this scripture speaks about the take over of the Spirit in prayer as "groans" which cannot be put into words. Groans are not the same as other tongues. I'm not saying that the Spirit doesn't pray through us in other tongues because clearly in 1 Cor 14: 14, He does, BUT the Spirit also prays through us without words coming out of our mouths but in groans. I've experienced that. So can you see how perhaps "praying in the Spirit" doesn't necessarily have to be "praying in tongues"? The Spirit can pray through us in different ways and is not limited to only tongues.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.KJV

[Pressing-On]

But this scripture speaks about the take over of the Spirit in prayer as "groans" which cannot be put into words. Groans are not the same as other tongues. I'm not saying that the Spirit doesn't pray through us in other tongues because clearly in 1 Cor 14: 14, He does, BUT the Spirit also prays through us without words coming out of our mouths but in groans. I've experienced that. So can you see how perhaps "praying in the Spirit" doesn't necessarily have to be "praying in tongues"? The Spirit can pray through us in different ways and is not limited to only tongues.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.KJV

I understand that and have experienced "groaning" many times. I'm just saying that throughout the duration of travail, I have groaned, spoke in tongues, groaned, etc.

IOW, going back and forth. So, yes, groaning is part of travail (for however long you are groaning), but not exclusively groaning. It just simply isn't the only element involved in travail.

The scriptures you cited are not a definite, for me, travail "only" includes groaning. It just doesn't. I couldn't use that scripture and teach it was an "only" element.

I've started out in tongues, gone into groaning. Sometimes I start out groaning and end up speaking in tongues. I know from my intense feelings, that I am in travail. Being that the Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues, I could never instruct anyone that "groaning" is all that is involved. I would feel I was not adequately portraying "travail" correctly if I did that.

Again, I don't see how when the Spirit is present, you will not speak in tongues as well. That is all I am saying.

[Esaias]

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.

[mizpeh]

Again, I don't see how when the Spirit is present, you will not speak in tongues as well. That is all I am saying.Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

[Esaias]

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

:thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

I see the scripture as saying "divers" kinds of tongues are different languages and the "gift of tongues" is used for interpretation. I would have to have God show me in the scripture where someone receives the initial evidence, but never speaks in tongues again. That should have nothing to do with being used in Tongues and Interpretation. I know people in that category, but I don't see it in scripture. What people do and don't do is not as important to me as what the scriptures say.

God uses me in all the gifts because I took His Word seriously and prayed that He would. As a new convert, I fasted 5 days for God to use me in the gifts. And I sought that with sincere intent to be useful to the Kingdom of God, not to pin honors on myself. That's how it should be - for the Kingdom of God - for the edification of the church. And let me add, it comes with a price.

The Spirit is what draws people to God. Whether in personal edification or edification of the church, we should seek His gifts.

By reading Acts 19:6 "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied", I see that the gifts were manifested at the outset of the Church.

I came back to share this story. My son practices the drums at church just about every night. When he is finished, he turns and points back to the drums and says, "It's all for your glory, God." This last time, after having never heard himself speak in tongues for years, he began to speak in tongues and came home crying to share his story. So, I encourage anyone that hasn't spoken in tongues in years, keep believing, it will happen. Don't believe people who have settled with only speaking in tongues as initial evidence only.

[Pressing-On]

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.
I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.

[Esaias]

I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.

You and brother Blume have asserted that praying in the spirit is ONLY and ALWAYS praying in tongues. There is no scripture that says that. There is no scripture that NECESSITATES that conclusion. Therefore there is no scriptural basis for dogmatically asserting that if a person is not praying in tongues, they are not praying in the spirit.

Furthermore, as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture speaking about the subject of praying and tongues does NOT say "praying with the spirit is always in tongues". It doesn't even say "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues" without the "always". What it does say is very specific - if I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. That's all it says. Guess what? If I speak in tongues my spirit speaketh but my understanding is unfruitful. Should I therefore conclude that if a person is NOT speaking in tongues they are not speaking in, by, or with the spirit? Of course not.

If people wish to build their doctrine on their personal experience and subjective opinions without regard to the ACTUAL TEXT then I guess have at it. It's what the entire denominational world does, so why not, right?

As for me, I will stick with the Bible.

[Pressing-On]

You and brother Blume have asserted that praying in the spirit is ONLY and ALWAYS praying in tongues. There is no scripture that says that. There is no scripture that NECESSITATES that conclusion. Therefore there is no scriptural basis for dogmatically asserting that if a person is not praying in tongues, they are not praying in the spirit.

Furthermore, as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture speaking about the subject of praying and tongues does NOT say "praying with the spirit is always in tongues". It doesn't even say "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues" without the "always". What it does say is very specific - if I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. That's all it says. Guess what? If I speak in tongues my spirit speaketh but my understanding is unfruitful. Should I therefore conclude that if a person is NOT speaking in tongues they are not speaking in, by, or with the spirit? Of course not.

If people wish to build their doctrine on their personal experience and subjective opinions without regard to the ACTUAL TEXT then I guess have at it. It's what the entire denominational world does, so why not, right?

As for me, I will stick with the Bible.

The initial evidence of the Holy Ghost is tongues. Anytime the Holy Ghost/Spirit is mentioned it must point back to that initial sign. So, for me, it's a no brainer that Holy Ghost = tongues. I mean, Paul talks about it quite a bit in Corinthians.

[mfblume]

Praying with our spirits is contrasted with praying with our understanding. Paul is not speaking about any contrasts that deal with God's Spirit. God's Spirit is just as involved in understanding through native tongue as it is in spirit in tongues. The difference is our spirits versus our understanding. If we're talking about prayer in the spirit, 1 Cor 14 is the only chapter that deals with that issue, and it is tongues, and context shows it is a contrast of two parts of us, not how much of God's Spirit we tap into or not.

[JoseC]

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

Is it me or are you combining speaking in tongues during prayer with the gift of speaking in tounges? Those are two separate "types" of tongues. One is for self edification the other for the edification of The Church. You can pray in tongues without the gift of speaking in tongues.

[mizpeh]

Is it me or are you combining speaking in tongues during prayer with the gift of speaking in tounges? Those are two separate "types" of tongues. One is for self edification the other for the edification of The Church. You can pray in tongues without the gift of speaking in tongues.

Both, tongues for self edification and for the edification of the church, stem from the gift of tongues. They are the same gift being manifest for different purposes.

So what you are saying is ... not everyone who prays in tongues is used by the Spirit to give a message in tongues? Therefore, they cannot be the same gift?

[Esaias]

So... when you guys are praying in your own language, "with the understanding", then your spirit is NOT praying, you are NOT in the spirit, your prayers aren't spiritual?

[Esaias]

One last time, for the children's sake lol:

Paul did NOT say "if my spirit prays then I pray in tongues". He said "if I pray in tongues then my spirit prays BUT my understanding is unfruitful."

There is a difference between the first statement which is NOT in the Bible but which nevertheless IS AFFIRMED by some people, and the second statement which IS in the Bible, which I agre with, but which apparently is denied by some.

[houston]

Ever pray in tongues and feel contractions in your belly? Serious question.

[Pressing-On]

One last time, for the children's sake lol:

Paul did NOT say "if my spirit prays then I pray in tongues". He said "if I pray in tongues then my spirit prays BUT my understanding is unfruitful."

There is a difference between the first statement which is NOT in the Bible but which nevertheless IS AFFIRMED by some people, and the second statement which IS in the Bible, which I agre with, but which apparently is denied by some.

I am not quite understanding you here. You are referencing the above scripture I Cor 14:14 in regards to "travail"? Because I Cor 14:13-14 is an instruction regarding tongues and interpretation. How do you get "travailing prayer" out of that?

Let me clarify my point as well. In I Cor 14:23 especially, and really all of Corinthians 14 is speaking about the use of the gifts in the church. Paul doesn't want them to stand around edifying themselves, but to operate in the gifts, edifying the church. Anyway, I don't see I Cor 14:14 alluding to travail.

[votivesoul]

Has no one else been praying "in the Spirit" and vacillated, as God moves, between tongues and native language, i.e. between spirit and understanding?

Does that mean, then, at every instance of change between speaking in tongues and speaking in the native language, that one goes in and out of the Spirit?

That doesn't make sense to me.

It's all "in the Spirit" if all inspired by the Spirit. Jesus prayed many times before Pentecost with the understanding in His own native tongue. Was that not "in the Spirit"?

If we ask anything according to the will of God, He hears us, correct?

And the Spirit itself makes intercession for us according to the will of God, does it not?

So, if the Spirit is making intercession for us and leading us to pray according to the will of God, and if by praying according to the will of God we can know that God hears us and that we will have the petitions we ask of Him, then by default all such praying, whether in tongues or not in tongues, is "in the Spirit".

[votivesoul]

Ever pray in tongues and feel contractions in your belly? Serious question.

Yes, frequently. Such as seemed a burden of intercessory prayer or perhaps personal deliverance, as the case may be.

[Aquila]

Childish legalisms.

Are not prophesies, visions, and interpretations given "in the Spirit"? They are manifestations of the Spirit given in one's native tongue.

Some are far too dogmatic and rigid in their approach. This is a dynamic and flowing spiritual reality.

[Pressing-On]

Has no one else been praying "in the Spirit" and vacillated, as God moves, between tongues and native language, i.e. between spirit and understanding?

Does that mean, then, at every instance of change between speaking in tongues and speaking in the native language, that one goes in and out of the Spirit?

That doesn't make sense to me.

It's all "in the Spirit" if all inspired by the Spirit. Jesus prayed many times before Pentecost with the understanding in His own native tongue. Was that not "in the Spirit"?

If we ask anything according to the will of God, He hears us, correct?

And the Spirit itself makes intercession for us according to the will of God, does it not?

So, if the Spirit is making intercession for us and leading us to pray according to the will of God, and if by praying according to the will of God we can know that God hears us and that we will have the petitions we ask of Him, then by default all such praying, whether in tongues or not in tongues, is "in the Spirit".

I agree with you here. However, unless I am misunderstanding Mizpeh and Esaias, they are saying it is not ever necessary to speak in tongues again after initial infilling. I don't agree with that. I don't see the scriptures supporting that view.

[Pressing-On]

One thing I would like to say is that the Apostles taught more on "worship" than they did on Acts 2:38. Everything comes into play when we worship.

Notice these scriptures - Acts 1:4; Ephesians 6:18; Philippians 4:6 - "in prayer/worship and supplication/petition", "with all prayer/worship and supplication/petition"; "by prayer/worship and supplication/petition".

Worship should always precede petition.

Notice when studying the word "prayer" that the definition "worship" G4335 is used more often.

We would see more things happen if we focused on "worship" rather than whether or not it is allowable to speak in tongues in church, at home or ever again after the initial infilling. JMO.

[mfblume]

Childish legalisms.

Are not prophesies, visions, and interpretations given "in the Spirit"? They are manifestations of the Spirit given in one's native tongue.

Not in the context of the HUMAN SPIRIT mentioned in 1 Cor 14:14.

[mfblume]

So... when you guys are praying in your own language, "with the understanding", then your spirit is NOT praying, you are NOT in the spirit, your prayers aren't spiritual?

When MY SPIRIT prays, it has nothing to do with being spiritual in the context you are presenting it. It does in one sense, but not how you are asking. We are talking apples and oranges when we refer to being spiritual and praying in the spirit in the context of 1 Cor 14:14. One can be very spiritual to pray in one's understanding. They are spiritual in their maturity as to what to pray about. But Paul was not talking about that at all when he spoke of praying "in the spirit".

[mfblume]

It isn't strictly one's own spirit that is praying. In fact, the Holy Spirit is also interceding.

Romans 8:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

True but that was not what Paul was referring to by IN THE SPIRIT.

he was simply referring to the human spirit being in activity towards God's Spirit. You are speaking of the spirit in 1 Cor 14:14 in a context Paul was not. Which is fine and true.

How is it that it is considered to be our spirit praying, yet the Holy Spirit may also make intercession through us and our prayers? We read...

1 Corinthians 6:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

He is truly the Vine... and we are the branches. Living extensions of Him. The Spirit prays and speaks through our spirit when tongues are taking place. This is also seen when coupled with interpretation. It is the Spirit that is speaking through His abiding presence in our spirit, our inner man. This realization broke upon me after God began using me with regards to tongues and interpretation.

That being said, even when we pray with understanding (as the Spirit leads), we are praying "in the Spirit".

But that IN THE SPIRIT is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor 14:14. I agree we are IN THE SPIRIT when we pray in native language by knowing what to pray for an what God hears. But in the context of 1 Cor 14:14, the only reference in the bible that says PRAY IN THE SPIRIT it is not speaking about what you are speaking about. That's all that I am saying.

[Aquila]

True but that was not what Paul was referring to by IN THE SPIRIT.

he was simply referring to the human spirit being in activity towards God's Spirit. You are speaking of the spirit in 1 Cor 14:14 in a context Paul was not. Which is fine and true.



But that IN THE SPIRIT is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor 14:14. I agree we are IN THE SPIRIT when we pray in native language by knowing what to pray for an what God hears. But in the context of 1 Cor 14:14, the only reference in the bible that says PRAY IN THE SPIRIT it is not speaking about what you are speaking about. That's all that I am saying.

Why are you narrowing the entire question to I Corinthians 14?

[shazeep]

One thing I would like to say is that the Apostles taught more on "worship" than they did on Acts 2:38. Everything comes into play when we worship.

Notice these scriptures - Acts 1:4; Ephesians 6:18; Philippians 4:6 - "in prayer/worship and supplication/petition", "with all prayer/worship and supplication/petition"; "by prayer/worship and supplication/petition".

Worship should always precede petition.

Notice when studying the word "prayer" that the definition "worship" G4335 is used more often.

We would see more things happen if we focused on "worship" rather than whether or not it is allowable to speak in tongues in church, at home or ever again after the initial infilling. JMO.Amen! And note that one must put the Book down to worship, which btw cannot--or anyway does not--happen in a church building. "Worship" means "follow."

[mfblume]

Why are you narrowing the entire question to I Corinthians 14?

because it's the only verse in the entire bible that mentions prayer in the spirit and that's what the original poster asked about.

[Pressing-On]

Amen! And note that one must put the Book down to worship, which btw cannot--or anyway does not--happen in a church building. "Worship" means "follow."

The definition for "worship" that is used most in the NT is proskuneō. Notice that it is very close to proseuchomai, which is the most used definition for "pray".

In the Greek, "worship" means to "kiss the hand" or "meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand".

It means, metaphorically, that we trust God "entirely" with our care and that is, or should be, our heart and focus when we commune with God.

[shazeep]

Ah, yes. Ok then, to a Hebrew "worship" means "follow." and ty for the clarify.

[Pressing-On]

Ah, yes. Ok then, to a Hebrew "worship" means "follow." and ty for the clarify.
I was looking in the Hebrew and "worship" means to "bow down". Where do you get "follow"?

[MawMaw]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Excellent! :thumbsup

[MawMaw]

Ever pray in tongues and feel contractions in your belly? Serious question.

I have.

Yes, frequently. Such as seemed a burden of intercessory prayer or perhaps personal deliverance, as the case may be.

I agree! :nod

[Aquila]

because it's the only verse in the entire bible that mentions prayer in the spirit and that's what the original poster asked about.

lol!

Literalists can be so funny. If something isn't mentioned word for word... they spin their wheels, failing to see what else is there. Some things are spiritually discerned I guess.

[mfblume]

lol!

Literalists can be so funny. If something isn't mentioned word for word... they spin their wheels, failing to see what else is there. Some things are spiritually discerned I guess.

It has nothing to do with literalism. When the original poster mentioned praying in the spirit, this is the scripture that came to me. So I simply explained what Paul meant in that verse. Go figure. I already said I agreed with your thoughts but just that the verse I dealt with was not dealing with them. Did you forget I agreed? You laugh at me as though I am literalist and cannot accept prayer in spirit can refer to other things after I agreed it can.

[Pressing-On]

lol!

Literalists can be so funny. If something isn't mentioned word for word... they spin their wheels, failing to see what else is there. Some things are spiritually discerned I guess.

How could you intellectually discuss "praying in the Spirit" if you didn't go to the exact literal scripture that discussed the issue?

[shazeep]

I was looking in the Hebrew and "worship" means to "bow down". Where do you get "follow"?from a Hebrew--but surely, just as in our "translations" of Scripture, sometimes no one word is perfect. However, you might notice on FB the notifications from "TWOO," an Israeli site, that "follow us" has been (incorrectly, here) translated as "worship us."

But i am getting some translator deviation there, also; two separate Hebrew words for "worship" and "follow." Hmm. My Hebrew friend is also having no problem with "bow down." To him they mean the same thing.

[Pressing-On]

from a Hebrew--but surely, just as in our "translations" of Scripture, sometimes no one word is perfect. However, you might notice on FB the notifications from "TWOO," an Israeli site, that "follow us" has been (incorrectly, here) translated as "worship us."

But i am getting some translator deviation there, also; two separate Hebrew words for "worship" and "follow." Hmm. My Hebrew friend is also having no problem with "bow down." To him they mean the same thing.

Your Hebrew friend is saying that shâchâh is "follow"?

Brown, Driver, Briggs has "bowed down". I don't know how your friend is getting follow.

[Aquila]

How could you intellectually discuss "praying in the Spirit" if you didn't go to the exact literal scripture that discussed the issue?

More can be done in the Spirit than "praying in the Spirit" as is being focused upon.

One can be pressed in the Spirit to testify:

Acts 18:5
And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

One can teach in the Spirit:

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Choices and decisions can be made in the Spirit:

Acts 19:21
After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

One can be bound to a specific task in the Spirit:

Acts 20:22
And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

So much can transpire and be experienced while being in the Spirit. Tongues are not all that transpire in the Spirit. That was the primary point.

[Aquila]

Often what I love to do is simply sit and wait upon the Lord in silence. When the Spirit moves, God often gives visions, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, tongues, interpretation of tongues, discernment of spirits, etc. God also might challenge our traditional interpretations of Scripture, opening up new dimensions to spiritual realities previously unknown. Sometimes the understandings are timely. Sometimes they are understandings that many are not be ready to receive.

[mfblume]

More can be done in the Spirit than "praying in the Spirit" as is being focused upon.

You keep exchanging the human spirit for God's Spirit in the context we dealt with in Paul's words.

We agree things can be done in God's Spirit as you list them. You seem to keep forgetting that when you protested the issue we raised we were referring to Paul's context of the human spirit. Which is it you wish to deal with? You initially wrote as though Paul was speaking of God's Spirit, though, when you first responded to our notes.

[Pressing-On]

More can be done in the Spirit than "praying in the Spirit" as is being focused upon.

One can be pressed in the Spirit to testify:

Acts 18:5
And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

One can teach in the Spirit:

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Choices and decisions can be made in the Spirit:

Acts 19:21
After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

One can be bound to a specific task in the Spirit:

Acts 20:22
And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

So much can transpire and be experienced while being in the Spirit. Tongues are not all that transpire in the Spirit. That was the primary point.

We weren't discussing "more can be done". We were discussing Mizpeh's particular questions concerning "praying in the spirit".



What does it mean to be "praying in the Spirit"?

Is "praying in the Spirit" the exact same thing as praying in tongues?

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" Revelation 1:10

"praying in the Holy Spirit" Jude 1:20

"Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?" 1Corinthians 14: 13-16

[mfblume]

What happened was Aquila did not think of Paul referring to the human spirit whereby we pray without understanding, and assumed, like most people, it is the Spirit of God Paul referred to. And when we clarified that, he backpeddled a little. ;)

[Esaias]

So now praying in tongues is an action of the human spirit and NOT by the Spirit of God????

No wonder Pentecost is in the mess it's in nowadays.

[Aquila]

We weren't discussing "more can be done". We were discussing Mizpeh's particular questions concerning "praying in the spirit".

And praying in the Spirit doesn't require "tongues" per Mizpeh's question.

[Aquila]

What happened was Aquila did not think of Paul referring to the human spirit whereby we pray without understanding, and assumed, like most people, it is the Spirit of God Paul referred to. And when we clarified that, he backpeddled a little. ;)

If I understand you correctly, this is a false dichotomy. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. The abiding Holy Spirit moves through and speaks through what many call the "human spirit".

Where did I backpeddle?

[Pressing-On]

And praying in the Spirit doesn't require "tongues" per Mizpeh's question.

It doesn't exclude it, which Mizpeh also didn't disagree on that point.

[Pressing-On]

So now praying in tongues is an action of the human spirit and NOT by the Spirit of God????

No wonder Pentecost is in the mess it's in nowadays.

I believe it would be both, we being the vessel - God working through us.

There are times, if you have experienced this, that my thoughts know what I am trying to say to God, but I have no human words to express myself adequately, that is when I am praying in the spirit via tongues.

And there are times, I am so burdened I pray in tongues and/or groaning knowing the Spirit is making intercession for me. In those times, I don't worry that I don't have the understanding as to what I am asking for or interceding about. I am allowing God to use me for whatever purpose He has in that prayer. This, IMO, is what I Cor 14:14 is referring to. Again, Paul in I Corinthians 14 is instructing the church on proper operation in a church setting. Knowing that he "speaks in tongues more than ye all", you know he is not excluding the speaking in tongues in church. He just doesn't want that to be our only function in edification.

There have also been times that I have sung a song in tongues, and then sung that same song in my own language. That is what I believe I Cor 14:15 is referring to - "I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." I have been mightily blessed by those words that always sing of the power, glory and grace of God and His care toward us, His people.

I think I Corinthians 14 makes it hard for some us to believe tongues is not praying in the spirit, and really that it doesn't follow closely after groaning.

[mfblume]

So now praying in tongues is an action of the human spirit and NOT by the Spirit of God????

No wonder Pentecost is in the mess it's in nowadays.

Ask Paul, he's the one who said it, Esaias. You cannot see any HUMAN SPIRIT involved? The truth is OUR HUMAN SPIRITS are born again of God's Spirit, Esaias.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Human spirits are born again of God's Spirit, just like human flesh of a child is born from human mother's flesh.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. (17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

And the HUMAN SPIRIT like the most holy place, is where the SPIRITUAL works of God's SPIRIT occur in us and work outwardly.

If you cannot read Paul's words without refusing to accept that he said it was HIS HUMAN SPIRIT praying then that is evidence Pentecost is messed up.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


Of course God's Spirit is involved and tongues would not occur if it wasn't. But His Spirit works with OUR SPIRITS and it occurs. We could not speak in tongues if God's Spirit was not united to our human spirits.

Why do you reject what Paul said here? If you don't reject his words, then how in the world can you say it was not his spirit praying when he said it was? Are you unaware that a man is spirit, soul and body? 1 Thess 5:23?

[mfblume]

If I understand you correctly, this is a false dichotomy. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. The abiding Holy Spirit moves through and speaks through what many call the "human spirit".

Where did I backpeddle?

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

[mfblume]

And praying in the Spirit doesn't require "tongues" per Mizpeh's question.

According to Paul's context in 1 Cor 14 it does. If you want to get outside of 1 Cor 14 and refer to the Spirit of God involved in our praying, then fine. We already said we agreed. But Mizpeh likely referred to 1 Cor 14:14, or else at least knew that verse was somewhere in the bible, and so we responded to it.

[Pressing-On]

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[mfblume]

It doesn't exclude it, which Mizpeh also didn't disagree on that point.

Amen!

The human spirit in union with God's Spirit upon new birth is what was formerly dead before salvation, like an empty holiest of holies in the temple. Our human spirits come alive and into union with God's Spirit. And through the human spirit God can do many things with His Spirit. Including prayer. And that does not have to include tongues. BUT, when PAUL spoke of prayer in the Spirit he was specifically talking about HIS HUMAN SPIRIT in that instance because he contrasted it from HIS understanding. With our understanding (soul) we pray in native language. We UNDERSTAND what we are praying. But when OUR spirits pray it is in tongues and we cannot understand what we are saying, ourselves! Our understanding is unfruitful.

That's why Paul said earlier that no man understands, not even the speaker, when he speaks in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The translators of the KJV recognized this distinction between God's spirit and the human spirit. so they capitalized the term when in reference to God, but not in reference to human. I do not derive my beliefs from their uses of capitalization of words, but in this case they were right!

It is a case of understanding versus not understanding. And since tongues was the subject of 1 Cor 14, praying in tongues is not praying with understanding.

Too many seem to think that prayer in the spirit is contrasted from prayer when God is not involved, when that is not the point at all. It's like saying someone is in the flesh when some people hear a person not in the spirit. They only know the contrast between ONE SPIRIT, God's, whenever the word SPIRIT is mentioned, and it is ALWAYS contrasting fleshly things from it when it is mentioned. And that is not the case at all.

Esaias thought prayer in the human spirit meant God's Spirit is not involved, and that is not the case at all. Aquila thought prayer in the spirit meant the same thing, but in the context Paul wrote of it both are wrong.

Just because I pray in the understanding does not mean I pray without the presence of God leading me. That's what you folks seem to think Paul was contrasting, and it wasn't.

If we want to talk about leading of God's Spirit, then yes prayer does not have to involve tongues. But Paul was not speaking of that at all in 1 Cor 14. AND THAT IS ALL WE ARE TRYING TO SAY.

:D

[Aquila]

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

[Aquila]

Some people are so caught up on exact wordings of things that they'd deny Jesus ever used the bathroom because it's not worded exactly like that in Scripture. C'mon guys... it's a spiritual book. Not a legal manual.

[shazeep]

:lol

[Pressing-On]

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

Where did he say that?

[mfblume]

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

No. I already said the Spirit of God is involved. You're not reading what we post.

[mfblume]

Some people are so caught up on exact wordings of things that they'd deny Jesus ever used the bathroom because it's not worded exactly like that in Scripture. C'mon guys... it's a spiritual book. Not a legal manual.

Strawman.

[shazeep]

no, thats not really fair. There is also a reading in the spirit, and many of the stories have other dimensions. While that may not apply here, such hair-splitting is usually a kind of telltale to me...

[Pressing-On]

no, thats not really fair. There is also a reading in the spirit, and many of the stories have other dimensions. While that may not apply here, such hair-splitting is usually a kind of telltale to me...

What do you mean by "reading in the spirit"?

[shazeep]

by that i mean understanding the spiritual analogues or equivalents of many Scriptural passages that might seem to be describing some rather mundane situation. The Bible is a spiritual Book--i'm sure you agree--that describes spiritual principles that there really are no words for, and so an approximation is made by retelling a mundane story where things stand for other things spiritually.

As a rule, these comparisons come to me, at least, after reading/thinking on some ambiguous passage, and praying for clarity, then witnessing some reflection of it in real life--usually with me in the "painful" spot in the situation, if there is one :lol
Thankfully i seem to have got past the more painful lessons--but this also worries me somewhat, as i know one could spend a Methusala's age in learning, and still not grasp the whole of God.

So, these are often things that could not be "proven," like "women watering camels" in Genesis, etc., but still provide meaningful reflections to one who has seen the symbology in those three words (for instance).

[mfblume]

Aquila, please read this again...

Amen!

The human spirit in union with God's Spirit upon new birth is what was formerly dead before salvation, like an empty holiest of holies in the temple. Our human spirits come alive and into union with God's Spirit. And through the human spirit God can do many things with His Spirit. Including prayer. And that does not have to include tongues. BUT, when PAUL spoke of prayer in the Spirit he was specifically talking about HIS HUMAN SPIRIT in that instance because he contrasted it from HIS understanding. With our understanding (soul) we pray in native language. We UNDERSTAND what we are praying. But when OUR spirits pray it is in tongues and we cannot understand what we are saying, ourselves! Our understanding is unfruitful.

That's why Paul said earlier that no man understands, not even the speaker, when he speaks in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The translators of the KJV recognized this distinction between God's spirit and the human spirit. so they capitalized the term when in reference to God, but not in reference to human. I do not derive my beliefs from their uses of capitalization of words, but in this case they were right!

It is a case of understanding versus not understanding. And since tongues was the subject of 1 Cor 14, praying in tongues is not praying with understanding.

Too many seem to think that prayer in the spirit is contrasted from prayer when God is not involved, when that is not the point at all. It's like saying someone is in the flesh when some people hear a person not in the spirit. They only know the contrast between ONE SPIRIT, God's, whenever the word SPIRIT is mentioned, and it is ALWAYS contrasting fleshly things from it when it is mentioned. And that is not the case at all.

Esaias thought prayer in the human spirit meant God's Spirit is not involved, and that is not the case at all. Aquila thought prayer in the spirit meant the same thing, but in the context Paul wrote of it both are wrong.

Just because I pray in the understanding does not mean I pray without the presence of God leading me. That's what you folks seem to think Paul was contrasting, and it wasn't.

If we want to talk about leading of God's Spirit, then yes prayer does not have to involve tongues. But Paul was not speaking of that at all in 1 Cor 14. AND THAT IS ALL WE ARE TRYING TO SAY.

:D