You find a piece of paper....

[Timmy]

You find a piece of paper. Written on it is this:


God spoke to me. This is what He said: " ___________ "


What's in the blank is irrelevant to my question, but you would be able to read it, if it helps determine whether it came from God or not. And my question is this:

If you found that paper, would you be able to know if God really said what it says?

[mfblume]

Ever seeking to prove the bible wrong and mythical, and never ceasing. What's your mission, T? You get on a Christian forum and do nothing but intend to shoot down faith in the God of the Bible. Why the vengeance?

[Jermyn Davidson]

I voted.

[Timmy]

Thanks, J.

Matterwichoo, M?

:lol

[Jermyn Davidson]

Matterwichoo, M?



???

[Timmy]

???

(What's the) matter wi(th) yo(u), M?

[Timmy]

Care to expound, Jermyn? How would you know?

[Timmy]

Ah, thanks for voting, Mike. You could expound, too, if you like.

[mfblume]

Just compare the writing with the bible. Simple.

Now, answer my question. :D

[mizpeh]

You find a piece of paper. Written on it is this:


God spoke to me. This is what He said: " ___________ "


What's in the blank is irrelevant to my question, but you would be able to read it, if it helps determine whether it came from God or not. And my question is this:

If you found that paper, would you be able to know if God really said what it says?

depends what is written

[Jermyn Davidson]

Care to expound, Jermyn? How would you know?

Like Mike said, I'd compare it to the Bible.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Ever seeking to prove the bible wrong and mythical, and never ceasing. What's your mission, T? You get on a Christian forum and do nothing but intend to shoot down faith in the God of the Bible. Why the vengeance?

You don't think that is what he is really trying to do?

Why would someone want to waste their time doing such a destructive thing as that?

[Timmy]

Just compare the writing with the bible. Simple.

Now, answer my question. :D

So you compare the writing with the Bible. If it doesn't contradict, does that prove that God spoke those words to the writer?

As to your question, asking what I did doesn't do any such thing. Now, how about my followup question: "Matterwichoo?" :heeheehee

[mfblume]

You don't think that is what he is really trying to do?

Why would someone want to waste their time doing such a destructive thing as that?

Believe me, that's all he has been doing for the most part on this forum. Seriously. And that is the same question I am asking. WHY? lol

[mfblume]

So you compare the writing with the Bible. If it doesn't contradict, does that prove that God spoke those words to the writer?

Nope, but it's a place to start.

As to your question, asking what I did doesn't do any such thing.

What?

[Timmy]

Nope, but it's a place to start.
So you're not finished? Continue, please. ;)




What?
The question I posed on this thread does not do what you accuse me of doing. Well, unless someone reads it and it occurs to them that they can't possibly know whether any particular writing was God-inspired or not, and take the logical step that even the Bible would have the same problem -- that you cannot know that it itself is inspired by God, unless, say, you think you have the supernatural power to determine such things, and of course conclude "No" for some books (Quran, Book of Mormon, e.g.) and "Yes" for others (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc., e.g.). But then, don't blame me: such a person's faith wasn't very strong anyway. Pray for them. That will fix it.

[Timmy]

(So far, so good, though. No "No" votes yet. ;))

[Aquila]

You find a piece of paper. Written on it is this:


God spoke to me. This is what He said: " ___________ "


What's in the blank is irrelevant to my question, but you would be able to read it, if it helps determine whether it came from God or not. And my question is this:

If you found that paper, would you be able to know if God really said what it says?

Not from the piece of paper. And if the statement isn't egregiously in violation to Scripture, you'd not be able to tell by the statement itself. If it were from God, you'd feel a witness to it's truth in your spirit.

[BrotherEastman]

Just compare the writing with the bible. Simple.

Now, answer my question. :D

This sums it up for me.

[Timmy]

Not sure everyone understands the question. It's not "Can you rule it out if it disagrees with other books that you have previously accepted as divinely inspired?" Rather, it asks if you can tell whether or not that particular paper accurately records something God has actually spoken to someone, as it claims. Ruling it out, if it's false, is part of it, but if you can't rule it out, you have to keep going: did God say it?

Today is December 23.

Does that contradict the Bible? No. Did God tell me that it is December 23? You tell me.

[Timmy]

Not from the piece of paper. And if the statement isn't egregiously in violation to Scripture, you'd not be able to tell by the statement itself. If it were from God, you'd feel a witness to it's truth in your spirit.

Ah. Now we're talking. You have the ability to feel a witness in your heart. Maybe my problem is I was never given this ability. Or maybe I was! My heart says No to certain things that your hears says Yes to. Who's right?

Well, duh. I am. :lol

[Jermyn Davidson]

Ah. Now we're talking. You have the ability to feel a witness in your heart. Maybe my problem is I was never given this ability. Or maybe I was! My heart says No to certain things that your hears says Yes to. Who's right?

Well, duh. I am. :lol

Your heart can't be trusted.

[mfblume]

The question I posed on this thread does not do what you accuse me of doing. Well, unless someone reads it and it occurs to them that they can't possibly know whether any particular writing was God-inspired or not, and take the logical step that even the Bible would have the same problem -- that you cannot know that it itself is inspired by God, unless, say, you think you have the supernatural power to determine such things, and of course conclude "No" for some books (Quran, Book of Mormon, e.g.) and "Yes" for others (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc., e.g.). But then, don't blame me: such a person's faith wasn't very strong anyway. Pray for them. That will fix it.

What you said is not read into it, but rather precisely the reason you wrote what you did. To cast disbelief of the bible onto others.

[shazeep]

Not sure everyone understands the question. It's not "Can you rule it out if it disagrees with other books that you have previously accepted as divinely inspired?" Rather, it asks if you can tell whether or not that particular paper accurately records something God has actually spoken to someone, as it claims. Ruling it out, if it's false, is part of it, but if you can't rule it out, you have to keep going: did God say it?

Today is December 23.

Does that contradict the Bible? No. Did God tell me that it is December 23? You tell me.well, a calendar could do that; can you give another example?

[shazeep]

Ah. Now we're talking. You have the ability to feel a witness in your heart. Maybe my problem is I was never given this ability. Or maybe I was! My heart says No to certain things that your hears says Yes to. Who's right?

Well, duh. I am. :lolthere is no reason why you both might not be "right," from your respective povs.

[MawMaw]

Ever seeking to prove the bible wrong and mythical, and never ceasing. What's your mission, T? You get on a Christian forum and do nothing but intend to shoot down faith in the God of the Bible. Why the vengeance?

What you said is not read into it, but rather precisely the reason you wrote what you did. To cast disbelief of the bible onto others.

Sad.

I have to agree with you Bro. Blume.

[mfblume]

Sad.

I have to agree with you Bro. Blume.

Like J said, why would anyone waste their time to this extent?

[Timmy]

Your heart can't be trusted.

:heeheehee

[Timmy]

well, a calendar could do that; can you give another example?

OK. Here's an actual example, though it wasn't written on paper. A man told me that God told him my brother would be healed of cancer.

Did God say that to the man? Can you tell?

Mike, can you?

[Timmy]

there is no reason why you both might not be "right," from your respective povs.

There is a reason we can't both be right, no matter the povs. It's simple: God said something to the writer or He didn't. One of our hearts is right and one is wrong.

You're not even trying to make sense, are you?

[Timmy]

What you said is not read into it, but rather precisely the reason you wrote what you did. To cast disbelief of the bible onto others.

So, are you going to continue your answer or not? Can you?

Is it not even important to you?

[mfblume]

OK. Here's an actual example, though it wasn't written on paper. A man told me that God told him my brother would be healed of cancer.

Did God say that to the man? Can you tell?

Mike, can you?

Sure! Was he healed? If not, then it was not God.

[mfblume]

So, are you going to continue your answer or not? Can you?

Is it not even important to you?

It's important to me, but I cannot honestly see that it is to you.

[Miss Scarlett]

At a Sunday Night Service....Mother and Dad, that child over there is coming home. Two days later he called and said, Mama, i'm coming home, can you meet my bus at such and such time? And I did..

[mfblume]

At a Sunday Night Service....Mother and Dad, that child over there is coming home. Two days later he called and said, Mama, i'm coming home, can you meet my bus at such and such time? And I did..

And...

[shazeep]

OK. Here's an actual example, though it wasn't written on paper. A man told me that God told him my brother would be healed of cancer.

Did God say that to the man? Can you tell?

Mike, can you?Well, since i know your bro was not healed, it is easy for me to say that God did not say that to the guy. But also my position is that God does not really speak to people since our canon is now closed. I even have Scripture that indicates this. But this is an old argument, so surely you've heard them.

[shazeep]

There is a reason we can't both be right, no matter the povs. It's simple: God said something to the writer or He didn't. One of our hearts is right and one is wrong.

You're not even trying to make sense, are you?well, it is my position that the real truth, spiritual 'sense,' is hardly comprehensible to anyone, me included. In this case, yes, there is no pov involved--the guy had an agenda. Now, whether that was to promote positive thinking--a powerful force--or not, it was still wrong of him to put it that way--"God told me _______," even if your brother then went on to a cure, imo; for the simple reason that we have a Scriptural formula for healing, and that is not a part of it. Personally, i run from people who say "God told me ______" now, as 1) i have had some painful experiences there myself, and 2) i now understand the psychology behind the claim. So, it led me to what Scripture advises, which is that charlatans flock to religion for cover.

Maybe it led you somewhere else; maybe for good reason. Personally, i am aware that the Bible we have is corrupted--but we now have access to the original languages, plus a lexicon; and even before all these tools were so easily available, getting the essential part of Scripture was possible even with a KJV, and if the essence is misunderstood, all the perfection of translation in the world would not help one anyway.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Just because a person dies from a disease doesn't mean that person wasn't healed.

In fact, if they're saved, natural death guarantees their healing.

Some of the Jews thought when then Messiah would come, He'd conquer the Romans and usher in a new government. The Messiah came but when He didn't perform the way they thought He would perform, they rejected the Messiah.

Just because they rejected the Messiah doesn't mean that the Messiah didn't come.

[thephnxman]

well, it is my position that the real truth, spiritual 'sense,' is hardly comprehensible to anyone, me included. In this case, yes, there is no pov involved--the guy had an agenda. Now, whether that was to promote positive thinking--a powerful force--or not, it was still wrong of him to put it that way--"God told me _______," even if your brother then went on to a cure, imo; for the simple reason that we have a Scriptural formula for healing, and that is not a part of it. Personally, i run from people who say "God told me ______" now, as 1) i have had some painful experiences there myself, and 2) i now understand the psychology behind the claim. So, it led me to what Scripture advises, which is that charlatans flock to religion for cover.

Maybe it led you somewhere else; maybe for good reason. Personally, i am aware that the Bible we have is corrupted--but we now have access to the original languages, plus a lexicon; and even before all these tools were so easily available, getting the essential part of Scripture was possible even with a KJV, and if the essence is misunderstood, all the perfection of translation in the world would not help one anyway.

I will only touch upon the points in bold:

You stated: "we have a scriptural formula for healing, and that is not a part of it".
You do err, not knowing the scriptures...": What is the gift of the word
of knowledge? Tell us.

You again: "but we now have access to the original languages, plus a lexicon...".
True believers have had access to the Holy Spirit since Pentecost: it is the
Holy Spirit that truly opens up the scriptures and gives one understanding
of God's will and the spiritual realm.

You once more: "if the essence is misunderstood, all... translation in the world
would not help one anyway".The essence can only be misunderstood sans the
Holy Spirit. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."

[KeptByTheWord]

Just because a person dies from a disease doesn't mean that person wasn't healed.

In fact, if they're saved, natural death guarantees their healing.

Some of the Jews thought when then Messiah would come, He'd conquer the Romans and usher in a new government. The Messiah came but when He didn't perform the way they thought He would perform, they rejected the Messiah.

Just because they rejected the Messiah doesn't mean that the Messiah didn't come.

So true! God's answers to our prayers many times are in ways we could never imagine.

[KeptByTheWord]

You find a piece of paper. Written on it is this:


God spoke to me. This is what He said: " ___________ "


What's in the blank is irrelevant to my question, but you would be able to read it, if it helps determine whether it came from God or not. And my question is this:

If you found that paper, would you be able to know if God really said what it says?

Generally I have found that when I hear the Lord speak something to me, it usually involves giving up something of my flesh that I love, and don't want to let go of. Generally when I understand the Lord to be speaking to me, it is in prayer, and it is something that my flesh does not want to do.

[shazeep]

that has been my experience also.
I will only touch upon the points in bold:

You stated: "we have a scriptural formula for healing, and that is not a part of it".
You do err, not knowing the scriptures...": What is the gift of the word
of knowledge? Tell us.well, that seems different than the gift of healing, to me? But it strikes me that Timmy's guy was ignorant of both, in this case.

You again: "but we now have access to the original languages, plus a lexicon...".
True believers have had access to the Holy Spirit since Pentecost: it is the
Holy Spirit that truly opens up the scriptures and gives one understanding
of God's will and the spiritual realm.

You once more: "if the essence is misunderstood, all... translation in the world
would not help one anyway".The essence can only be misunderstood sans the
Holy Spirit. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
an excellent restatement, tho i might argue that seekers have always had access to the Holy Spirit. And yes i am aware of the verses that might indicate otherwise.

[shazeep]

ok and i voted 'yes,' which is kind of disingenuous prolly, as it currently manifests as the ability to silently declare "nope" @ others' proclamations of burning bushes; although i am open! :D

but really, we have a canon that reveals God's Word to us; which would make me, at least, consider long and hard before i came out with any "God told me ________."

[Miss Scarlett]

And...

Have a great prophet prophesy as to the outcome and post it here. :nod

[mfblume]

Have a great prophet prophesy as to the outcome and post it here. :nod

Please explain how that applies to the subject of the thread.

[thephnxman]

Have a great prophet prophesy as to the outcome and post it here. :nod

Yes, that could be classified as a prophetic utterance!

[Miss Scarlett]

Please explain how that applies to the subject of the thread.

Yes, that could be classified as a prophetic utterance!

I would LOVE to see it:thumbsup

[thephnxman]

I would LOVE to see it:thumbsup

Did you receive that prophecy about someone coming home?

A prophet in the ministry must necessarily have the "gift of prophecy";
but the "gift of prophecy" does not necessarily place one in the
office of a prophet.

[shazeep]

hmm...

[Timmy]

Just because a person dies from a disease doesn't mean that person wasn't healed.

In fact, if they're saved, natural death guarantees their healing.

Some of the Jews thought when then Messiah would come, He'd conquer the Romans and usher in a new government. The Messiah came but when He didn't perform the way they thought He would perform, they rejected the Messiah.

Just because they rejected the Messiah doesn't mean that the Messiah didn't come.

He wasn't healed.

[Miss Scarlett]

Have a great prophet prophesy as to the outcome and post it here. :nod

Please explain how that applies to the subject of the thread.

YOU FIND A Piece of paper.....I guess it doesn't. I will bow out now.

[mfblume]

YOU FIND A Piece of paper.....I guess it doesn't. I will bow out now.

No need to bow out. It';s just it's hard to follow your thoughts with incomplete sentences. Sounds like good stuff!

[Timmy]

YOU FIND A Piece of paper.....I guess it doesn't. I will bow out now.

It's perfectly relevant to the thread. Don't let MB bully you. :lol

[shazeep]

ok, does the lady meet the bus her son was on, or not?
i gotta know! :lol

[mfblume]

It's perfectly relevant to the thread. Don't let MB bully you. :lol

I told her to continue, too! Don't bow out. lol

[KeptByTheWord]

Re the Ms. Scarlett post - I think she told us in her first post that the prophetic word came to pass, so I am assuming that the answer was yes.

[Miss Scarlett]

It's perfectly relevant to the thread. Don't let MB bully you. :lol

I guess I didn't quite understand the title of the thread until I reconsidered.

Bro. Becton was the preacher in the pulpit that night. My husband and I were sitting on the front pew. He came to the platform on our side, and said Mama and Daddy, that child you have off over there is coming home. I felt in my body, mind and soul, that he was talking to me. This was a Sunday night, At 2:00 AM on Tuesday Morning, I was sleeping soundly and the phone woke me up. It was my son who was off over there calling. His words were, Mama, I'm coming home, could you meet the bus tomorrow afternoon, in Brookhaven? Of course he didn't come right home, and start right to church, because I raised them Baptist, and now we were attending an Apostolic church, which he didn't know much about at the time. But later he came into the church one Wed. night and from then, was baptized in Jesus Name and came for two years, then he stopped. He did clean his life up gave up old habits, married when they were expecting their first child, and after for about a year, he and his wife both came, then quit, and now he has 4 children but still not active in church, but that prophecy was for me, I'm claiming it, and he is coming into the church. In Jesus Name. I HAVE NOT BEEN BULLIED, just short of time at that time.

[thephnxman]

I guess I didn't quite understand the title of the thread until I reconsidered.

Bro. Becton was the preacher in the pulpit that night. My husband and I were sitting on the front pew. He came to the platform on our side, and said Mama and Daddy, that child you have off over there is coming home. I felt in my body, mind and soul, that he was talking to me. This was a Sunday night, At 2:00 AM on Tuesday Morning, I was sleeping soundly and the phone woke me up. It was my son who was off over there calling. His words were, Mama, I'm coming home, could you meet the bus tomorrow afternoon, in Brookhaven? Of course he didn't come right home, and start right to church, because I raised them Baptist, and now we were attending an Apostolic church, which he didn't know much about at the time. But later he came into the church one Wed. night and from then, was baptized in Jesus Name and came for two years, then he stopped. He did clean his life up gave up old habits, married when they were expecting their first child, and after for about a year, he and his wife both came, then quit, and now he has 4 children but still not active in church, but that prophecy was for me, I'm claiming it, and he is coming into the church. In Jesus Name. I HAVE NOT BEEN BULLIED, just short of time at that time.

It was, and it was fulfilled.

[Aquila]

Ah. Now we're talking. You have the ability to feel a witness in your heart. Maybe my problem is I was never given this ability. Or maybe I was! My heart says No to certain things that your hears says Yes to. Who's right?

Well, duh. I am. :lol

I'd not necessarily say that you feel a witness in your "heart". One's heart is merely the center of one's emotions. I'd say that there is a witness within your spirit (where the Holy Spirit resides). There is a difference. When a word from the Spirit enters the soul (mind, will, emotions) through hearing (ear gate) or reading (eye gate) it is also experienced by the spirit (your living essence/breath of life). If you're born again, the Holy Spirit resides within your spirit. The Holy Spirit will bear witness to the word's truth, even if it defies the logic of the soul (mind, will, emotions).

The will of the Spirit can be different from one individual to the next. For example, the Spirit may convict me against owning a firearm. However, the Spirit may not convict my brother about owning a firearm. The Spirit might convict my brother with relation to specific foods or drinks, yet not convict me about specific foods or drinks. The Spirit might convict me not to go to a given place on vacation... yet not convict another brother about going to that specific place. So yes, the Spirit might have differing directives for different individuals.

Now, not only might the Spirit direct different individuals differently, but one hearing from the Spirit must properly interpret the impressions from the Spirit. While the Spirit makes no error in His guidance, one can error in interpreting what the Spirit is saying. So, no message from the Spirit outside of Scripture is absolutely inerrant. Subtle nuances of interpretation may be slightly off and require discernment on behalf of the receiver in order to be properly understood. Interpreting tongues is like this. The impressions that reverberate in one's inner man (spirit) from the Holy Spirit give meaning to the tongues spoken. However, the interpreter's ability to interpret can be limited by their own experience, vocabulary, and confidence. For example, there's the old funny tale about an inexperienced man who was interpreting tongues and the interpretation was as follows...

"Thus saith the LORD, Stay close to me my child, for today's trials and tribulations are many. I don't know if I'm going to make it myself. But if you hold on to me, I will carry you through."

We laugh at this and many say it would prove that the interpretation wasn't from God. However, in truth it may have indeed been from God. It is the individual's interpretation of the Spirit's impression that is off. A seasoned and spiritually astute interpreter might have interpreted it differently. For example, they might have given the interpretation as follows,

"Thus saith the LORD. Stay close to me my child, for today's trials and tribulations are many. I the LORD know the uncertainty that you feel. But if you hold on to me, I will carry you through."

Notice that in the example above it was the more seasoned and experienced interpreter who gave a more a more accurate interpretation of the impression from the Spirit as it relates to the meaning of the tongues.

With this in mind, no interpretation of the Spirit's leading or impression is absolutely inerrant. However, some "Words" from the Spirit may be more on target with relation to the Spirit's original intention than others.

More troublesome still, the Spirit might even challenge our traditional interpretations of Scripture. You see, while Scripture is inerrant in it's message, our interpretations of it are not. For example, in the beginning of the 20th century the Holy Spirit began challenging traditional interpretations of the godhead (Trinitarianism) and began revealing Oneness. This can get REAL sticky, especially if the Spirit is challenging a deeply established interpretation of a given text.

So we should always keep this in mind:

1.) The Spirit might indeed lead different people in different directions as it relates to various issues.

2.) The leading of the Spirit or a Word from the Spirit might be misinterpreted to some degree by the one who receives it.

3.) The Spirit can challenge our traditional interpretations of Scripture.

[Esaias]

OK. Here's an actual example, though it wasn't written on paper. A man told me that God told him my brother would be healed of cancer.

Did God say that to the man? Can you tell?

Mike, can you?

So your brother wasn't healed of cancer THEREFORE the Bible is not inspired and the gospel is not true, right? I wonder why so many people think God somehow owes them happiness...

[shazeep]

well, it is only natural to doubt, i think, if some Dr. of the field is so easily proven a liar. All men are not rapists, but if you are raped by a man, you would henceforth be uncomfortable around men--which is not a perfect analogy, as no choice is assumed in that case.

[Timmy]

So your brother wasn't healed of cancer THEREFORE the Bible is not inspired and the gospel is not true, right? I wonder why so many people think God somehow owes them happiness...

Not my point. Would you have known whether God had really spoken to that man, before knowing the rest of the story? Should I have been able to say "No, God didn't say that to you", somehow?

What he said didn't contradict the Bible, of course. But as I have been trying to explain here, that doesn't prove that God actually did say it.

[shazeep]

hmm, it can be argued that he contradicted Scripture, imo, in not actually healing--or finding a healer if that was not his gift--but rather making some empty--obviously--declaration of what God would do. It was proved that God did not say that when your bro was not healed, imo.

[Esaias]

Not my point. Would you have known whether God had really spoken to that man, before knowing the rest of the story? Should I have been able to say "No, God didn't say that to you", somehow?

What he said didn't contradict the Bible, of course. But as I have been trying to explain here, that doesn't prove that God actually did say it.

What exactly is your point? Unless God gives someone a special revelation, or unless the piece of paper contains information that only God and the recipient knew, then nobody could KNOW that the message on the paper was from God, anymore than they could know it was from ANYONE in particular.

Again, what's your point? A man said your brother would be healed of cancer. I presume from your later posts here such event did not take place as stated. Did the man hear from God? Maybe, maybe not.

Ninevah was told 40 days until Doomsday, but they continued about an additional 120 years or so. Did Jonah get it wrong? Not the message, but he sure misunderstood the character and activity of God as evidenced by his response to God's mercy.

So... what was your point?

[shazeep]

It was proved that God did not say that when your bro was not healed, imo.oh, duh, i get it; is there some way to know in the moment. yes, there is, but i would prolly have missed it. Where in Scripture does it say "You will have the power to determine whether God will or will not heal someone." it's not in there.

[Timmy]

What exactly is your point? Unless God gives someone a special revelation, or unless the piece of paper contains information that only God and the recipient knew, then nobody could KNOW that the message on the paper was from God, anymore than they could know it was from ANYONE in particular.

Again, what's your point? A man said your brother would be healed of cancer. I presume from your later posts here such event did not take place as stated. Did the man hear from God? Maybe, maybe not.

Ninevah was told 40 days until Doomsday, but they continued about an additional 120 years or so. Did Jonah get it wrong? Not the message, but he sure misunderstood the character and activity of God as evidenced by his response to God's mercy.

So... what was your point?

Can you tell if a claimed message from God is really from God?

[Timmy]

oh, duh, i get it; is there some way to know in the moment. yes, there is, but i would prolly have missed it. Where in Scripture does it say "You will have the power to determine whether God will or will not heal someone." it's not in there.

OK, let's forget about that specific example. Forget the healing or lack thereof. Forget about the piece of paper, for now. Let's go to the basic, simple question, as stated in my previous post:

Can you tell if a claimed message from God is really from God?

[jfrog]

OK, let's forget about that specific example. Forget the healing or lack thereof. Forget about the piece of paper, for now. Let's go to the basic, simple question, as stated in my previous post:

Can you tell if a claimed message from God is really from God?

Timmy, I think the better question is how can you know if a message from your mother is really a message from your mother?

[Timmy]

Timmy, I think the better question is how can you know if a message from your mother is really a message from your mother?

Uh. You're kidding, right?

[jfrog]

Uh. You're kidding, right?

Nope. But if your mother is no longer with us maybe you can replace mother with someone in your family that is still here with us. A sister maybe, or a father?

[thephnxman]

Nope. But if your mother is no longer with us maybe you can replace mother with someone in your family that is still here with us. A sister maybe, or a father?

I could tell if a letter sent to Timmie from his mom, was REALLY from his mom!

IF I KNEW HIS MOM!

[shazeep]

OK, let's forget about that specific example. Forget the healing or lack thereof. Forget about the piece of paper, for now. Let's go to the basic, simple question, as stated in my previous post:

Can you tell if a claimed message from God is really from God?categorically, no. i might go as far as to say that i would consider any 'message from God' to be in error, unless it just basically reiterates some Scripture relevant to the moment. Don't know about anyone else, but i am generally struck, in these messages from God, by a sense of the receiver's self importance primarily? "i got something special/extraBiblical from God for you," like that. Been guilty of it myself. With the best of intentions, of course.

Scripture indicates to me that an extraBiblical message of this type should/would come with irrefutable proof attached; Abram struck dumb, etc.

so, yes, i can tell, because game recognize game... :lol

[Timmy]

Nope. But if your mother is no longer with us maybe you can replace mother with someone in your family that is still here with us. A sister maybe, or a father?

Yes. I could tell if a letter really was from my mother.

Are you illustrating something like xman is alluding to? If I knew God, I could tell if a purported message really was from God?

Touche.

Except, those who claim to know God have vastly different descriptions of him, of what he wants, of what he says. They very often disagree with each other on purported messages' authenticity. Funny.

[shazeep]

game reckanize game, grandpa!

[Timmy]

categorically, no. i might go as far as to say that i would consider any 'message from God' to be in error, unless it just basically reiterates some Scripture relevant to the moment. Don't know about anyone else, but i am generally struck, in these messages from God, by a sense of the receiver's self importance primarily? "i got something special/extraBiblical from God for you," like that. Been guilty of it myself. With the best of intentions, of course.

Scripture indicates to me that an extraBiblical message of this type should/would come with irrefutable proof attached; Abram struck dumb, etc.

so, yes, i can tell, because game recognize game... :lol

The Bible is a purported message from God. And irrefutable proof of this kind of thing has likely never happened and probably never can. Being struck dumb is not irrefutable proof of anything.

Otherwise, good points. But, I don't get the "game recognize game" thing. ;)

[jfrog]

Yes. I could tell if a letter really was from my mother.

Are you illustrating something like xman is alluding to? If I knew God, I could tell if a purported message really was from God?

Touche.

Except, those who claim to know God have vastly different descriptions of him, of what he wants, of what he says. They very often disagree with each other on purported messages' authenticity. Funny.

I have an illustration but it will take a moment to develop. Can I ask how could you tell a letter was from your mother?

[shazeep]

The Bible is a purported message from God. And irrefutable proof of this kind of thing has likely never happened and probably never can. Being struck dumb is not irrefutable proof of anything.

Otherwise, good points. But, I don't get the "game recognize game" thing. ;)ah--a Boondocks reference, nevermind. And of course 'struck dumb' was for Abram only; the proof would be tailored for whatever hearer.

[Timmy]

. . . And irrefutable proof of this kind of thing has likely never happened and probably never can. . . .

The Bible illustrates this perfectly in the duel between Aaron and Pharaoh's magicians. A rod turning into a snake is not proof, because it wasn't amazing enough. The magicians could do that, too. Is Aaron's snake devouring the magicians' snakes amazing enough? To some it is, apparently.

But that puts the believers into a tough spot: are they simply to believe that every amazing thing, at least if it's really really amazing, is from God? But what if some of those false signs and wonders are really really amazing? They are told not to believe them, but they are not told how to recognize them.

:dunno

[Timmy]

ah--a Boondocks reference, nevermind. And of course 'struck dumb' was for Abram only; the proof would be tailored for whatever hearer.

If Abram had thought it through, he wouldn't think of it as proof. Thank God he didn't! :lol

[Timmy]

I have an illustration but it will take a moment to develop. Can I ask how could you tell a letter was from your mother?

Come to think of it, I couldn't really tell with 100% certainty that is wasn't a forgery. But in practical terms, I would just see the signature, and the content would be plausible as something she would write (easy to recognize her style ;)). I wouldn't normally have reason to suspect a forgery. Contrast that with all the claims of messages from God.

[shazeep]

ya, apparently they're going to be. Good question, and all i got at the moment is that Abram struck dumb is a like a 'personal proof,' only applicable for Abram--to the rest of us, he could even have been faking it--v "miracles" which you seem to be alluding to, which we know are for the lost.

[Timmy]

But hey, if you guys can tell, that's great. God has blessed you with supernatural power. Lucky you.

[shazeep]

If Abram had thought it through, he wouldn't think of it as proof. Thank God he didn't! :lolhow so?

[Timmy]

ya, apparently they're going to be. Good question, and all i got at the moment is that Abram struck dumb is a like a 'personal proof,' only applicable for Abram--to the rest of us, he could even have been faking it--v "miracles" which you seem to be alluding to, which we know are for the lost.

Miracles are for the lost? :blink

[shazeep]

definitely, c'mon. but I'll quote later, give frog the floor...

[shazeep]

Come to think of it, I couldn't really tell with 100% certainty that is wasn't a forgery. But in practical terms, I would just see the signature, and the content would be plausible as something she would write (easy to recognize her style ;)). I wouldn't normally have reason to suspect a forgery. Contrast that with all the claims of messages from God.:popcorn2

[Timmy]

how so?

Being struck dumb could have been from any number of causes. If he believed in devils, they could have done it as a false sign that the NT warns us about.

That's assuming it happened just as it says. It's a story. Someone wrote down a story that had likely been oral tradition for some decades, maybe centuries. There is no reason to think it is an accurate record of real events. Unless you are commanded to on penalty of death, maybe. ;) Even a large number of Christians see most of those stories as allegory or fable, with an important lesson. They would say literalism missed the intended point.

[shazeep]

hmm ya, i consider it more like mythology now, prolly embellished by men, but still containing truth that endured.

[jfrog]

Come to think of it, I couldn't really tell with 100% certainty that is wasn't a forgery. But in practical terms, I would just see the signature, and the content would be plausible as something she would write (easy to recognize her style ;)). I wouldn't normally have reason to suspect a forgery. Contrast that with all the claims of messages from God.

So basically you would:

1. Check to see if the letter was consistent with her other known writings

But doesn't that beg the question: how do you know the other writings were actually from her?

What I'm getting at is: Aren't you in the same quandry concerning a letter from your mother as those who can't say 100% for certain that a message is from God?

[Timmy]

So basically you would:

1. Check to see if the letter was consistent with her other known writings

But doesn't that beg the question: how do you know the other writings were actually from her?

What I'm getting at is: Aren't you in the same quandry concerning a letter from your mother as those who can't say 100% for certain that a message is from God?

In the most pedantic, technical way, yes. In practical terms, no. Not in the ballpark. I have seen and spoken with my mom, face to face. I know her handwriting. Most importantly, there is no reason to be wary of forgeries of her writing.

[Timmy]

Oh, about that quandary: believers don't have any known writings to compare with, except for what they have accepted as such on the word of strangers who lived centuries ago. Same quandry as the Muslims are in, etc.

[Esaias]

Can you tell if a claimed message from God is really from God?

1: if it doesn't contradict the scriptures and is in accordance with them.

2: if it contains a prediction that comes to pass within its context.

3: if it promotes faith in God and draws the recipient closer to God.

4: if it reveals the secrets of the heart or otherwise contains information that otherwise could not be known.

5: if there is an absence of evidence indicating it is not from God.

I suppose if those conditions were met it would be safe to conclude a message is from God.

But keep in mind the conclusion to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. ..

[Jermyn Davidson]

He wasn't healed.

Was he saved when he died?

Doesn't anyone else find it curious that the scriptures speak of our healing as already taken place when it is obvious that many of us are sick and that some of us will eventually die without being healed in this world?

[Lafon]

Timmy, allow me to try and instill some "reason" to all of the "rhyme" that has been posted in response to your fictional "piece of paper" from God (I'm NOT attempting to make "light" of the words of others, just being candid).

I also had a younger brother (who was also my "best friend") who died from the devastating effect of cancer. Even I prayed for him to be healed, as well as countless others, but it just never happened. However, know this .... I did NOT, nor do I now, blame God because he wasn't healed. Rather, I blame myself. Yes, that's correct, myself! Here is why, and I witness the same thing again and again, in fact, almost every time I attend worship services at the church I attend. It all comes down to an absence of FAITH! No, not on the part of the afflicted one whom I and others pray for their healing, rather it is because of the absence of FAITH on my part!

You see, before He ascended bodily to His throne located in the invisible heavens, the Lord Jesus Christ "commissioned" HIs disciples, empowering them to "lay hands on the sick and they shall recover" (Mark 16:18). On an earlier occasion He said to them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do" (John 14:12). This same apostle (John) would later, in his 1st epistle to the members of the 1st Century churches, wrote to inform them (and this same thing is applicable to every member of the contemporary church) that, "because as he is (referring to the Lord Jesus Christ), so are we in this world" (I John 4:17). This saying is true, but how many members of the church today practice it? Note that I did NOT ask how many members of the church "believe" it, for I am convinced that most do. The problem is in putting that "belief" (or, faith) into actual practice.

Did the apostles of the 1st Century "believe" they possessed the power to heal the sick, give strength to the lame, or even, yes, raise the dead to life again? Absolutely, and they, in fact, did all of these things, and even more. WHY? Because they put their "faith" into action. You see, it was NOT the "faith" of a dead woman named Tabitha, when Peter entered the room where she lay, and kneeled down and prayed, and said, "Tabitha, arise!" and she opened her eyes and saw Peter and sat up. No, the dead don't have nor are they able to display their "faith." It was Peter's "faith" in the words of our Lord who informed him that He was granting him that ability! That is what enabled Tabitha to be awakened from the "sleep of death." And if I had only known, and understood that as I do at this very moment, when almost six years ago I prayed for my youngest brother's healing, I am persuaded that he would be alive today! And by the same token, I am persuaded to believe that if those who laid hand on or prayed for your brother's healing had truly possessed the "faith" in our Lord's promise as they should have, there would be no discussion such as this for it would not be needed!

In Paul's words to the young evangelist Timothy, we read that he admonished him, saying, "Lay hands suddenly on NO man" (see I Timothy 5:22). Some, perhaps even many, read this and believe Paul was telling Timothy not to become engaged in a physical confrontation with another. And then there are those, such as I, who interpret Paul's words to imply that when we are preparing to lay our hands upon someone who is afflicted with a sickness or disease of some kind, or perhaps to even lay our hand upon someone who has died for the intent of restoring them to life again, we MUST never do so "suddenly," that is, in a happenstance manner or without FIRST having prayed and receiving assurance from the Spirit that the results which we desire will actually transpire. To do so without possessing such unwavering "faith" that what we are about to undertake to accomplish will actually happen, can only bring despair and a sense of hopelessness in those who observe our actions, but even worse, to the individual to whom we are seeking to heal.

No, I'm not trying to place blame on those who prayed for or laid their hands on your brother and he was not healed. Not at all. God forbid! What I am saying is that they did not FULLY PREPARE themselves before they undertook to do such a thing, just as I failed to do so with my youngest brother. Today, right at this very instance, one of my closes friends has lost all sight in one of his eyes. All of the medical specialists he has visited have given him the same bad news - "Your sight in that eye is gone forever!" I want so much to lay my hands on his eye, and pray for its complete restoration. I believe that can happen. In fact, I have absolutely NO doubts whatsoever that his sight will be restored, completely! So what's preventing me from laying my hands on him and praying for his healing, you many wonder. Well, it is this .... I will continue to pray for that to happen, and I will at some moment in the near future do so and he will be healed, but ONLY "after" I have received assurance from God that it will happen. And I am even now awaiting for that confirmation.

In summary, I beg of you not to feel bitterness or hatred, or any type of harsh feeling because your brother did not receive the healing you and he so desired. Please do NOT allow it to destroy your "faith" in God's ability to heal others, or even yourself should the occasion arise in the future that you are in need of His healing. And above all else, do not allow "unbelief" in the ability of others to whom God has granted the "power" to perform miracles of healings to dampen or diminish your belief that there are those who DO possess and exercise that "power"!

It is my prayerful hope that all of the things I've written here will be beneficial to you in some small way to know that God cares and He is still a miracle working Savior! I assure you that there are those today who do possess the "faith" required to use the "power" that God gives to His saints to perform miracles of healing the lame and the sick and diseased, and yes, even restore the dead to life again.

[Aquila]

1: if it doesn't contradict the scriptures and is in accordance with them.

2: if it contains a prediction that comes to pass within its context.

3: if it promotes faith in God and draws the recipient closer to God.

4: if it reveals the secrets of the heart or otherwise contains information that otherwise could not be known.

5: if there is an absence of evidence indicating it is not from God.

I suppose if those conditions were met it would be safe to conclude a message is from God.

But keep in mind the conclusion to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. ..

I can generally agree with your take on it. However, what if a message from God challenges a current interpretation of Scripture?

For example, the revelation of Oneness challenged the common Trinitarian interpretation of its day. There is also the Spirit's leading in regards to slavery that challenged the current interpretations of Scripture as it related to slavery in its day.

[Timmy]

Was he saved when he died?
Yes. Well, sort of. Trinny. Lol

Doesn't anyone else find it curious that the scriptures speak of our healing as already taken place when it is obvious that many of us are sick and that some of us will eventually die without being healed in this world?
Yeah. Curious.

[shazeep]

no longer curious about that; but the truth is not pleasant to contemplate...
Aquila, nice! Real, personal messages "from God" are quite possibly best characterized thus.

[shazeep]

Oh, about that quandary: believers don't have any known writings to compare with, except for what they have accepted as such on the word of strangers who lived centuries ago. Same quandry as the Muslims are in, etc.hmm...

[shazeep]

ok, @ "miracles are for the lost," i was sure we had debated this already, but maybe not.

ok, and unless someone provides the quote--i'm pretty sure it's red-letter--i will have to unpack a Bible...and a pair of glasses... :lol

and for what it's worth, T, we have the cliche "only the good die young," and arguably for a good reason.

[Aquila]

I've contemplated journaling some of my talks with God. Approach God with a repentant heart. Confess known sin. Seek forgiveness, grace, and patience. Testify of your faith in Christ and praise God for His grace and mercy. Realize your justification before His throne and how your righteousness is as filthy rags, yet you are clothed in Christ's righteousness through faith.

For those who might be interested in hearing from the Lord, one method I've found to be useful is as follows:

STOP - Quiet your mind so that you can hear God's voice. (Psalms 46:10; Lamentations 3:26; Job 29:21; Psalms 62:5; Matthew 14:23; Mark 1:35)

LOOK - As you press into the Spirit do not allow yourself to be distracted by any outside stimuli. Become fixed upon the Lord's presence. Pray in tongues, seek spiritual saturation, feel and experience your communion in Spirit. Share your thoughts and concerns. Look for vision as you pray. As God to speak to you. Allow yourself to see and experience yourself in communion with God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 6:18; John 15:7; Matthew 21:22; 1 John 5:14-15; Isaiah 55:6; Matthew 7:7; Psalms 55:17; Psalms 88:13; 1 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 11:6; John 4:24; Luke 18:1)

LISTEN - Recognize God's voice as a spontaneous flow of thoughts and visions which light upon your spirit. (John 10:27; John 16:13; John 6:63; James 1:19-27; Romans 8:14; John 8:47; John 14:26; John 10:16; Jeremiah 33:3; Psalms 32:8-9; 1 John 1:7; Psalms 5:3; 2 Peter 1:21; Exodus 33:18-23; Revelation 22:1)

WRITE - Write down the flow of thoughts and visions that come to you. (Habakkuk 2:2; Joel 2:28; Exodus 17:14; Psalm 45:1; Proverbs 3:3; Isaiah 8:1; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Habakkuk 2:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:17; 2 Peter 3:1; 1 John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Jude 1:3; Revelation 1:11; Revelation 1:19; Revelation 21:5)

These things can assist one seeking a Word from the Lord. Many conversations with the Lord might become foundations for sermons, lessons, books, articles, or just personal devotion. Realize that your talk with God is personal. Realize also that your journaling isn't holy Scripture. We know only in part. Therefore, we can misinterpret the Spirit. We are limited by our vocabulary, therefore the words we choose may not always be exactly on point with the Spirit's intention. These conversations with God will no doubt prove to be edifying to you and will aid you in developing what most of us truly lack... a "personal relationship" with God. You will learn how to better hear God's voice and feel God's leading as you do this. You may very well receive prophetic visions, Words of Knowledge, and Words of Wisdom. Confide in two close brothers or sisters who have discerned your spirit. Share with them what God and you are talking about. Allow them to address or present any concerns or questions about your talk with God. Consider their counsel and compare all things with Scripture and the general leading of the Spirit.

[thephnxman]

Was he saved when he died?
Doesn't anyone else find it curious that the scriptures speak of our healing as already taken place when it is obvious that many of us are sick and that some of us will eventually die without being healed in this world?

Healing, as is salvation, is a promise.

The Prophet Isaiah looked to the future and saw the cross, and declared. "By His stripes we ARE
healed." The Old Testament believers could appropriate healing for their bodies through the promise.

The Apostle Peter looked back to the cross and declared, "By whose stripes we were healed."
The Church should be told that healing, deliverance, forgiveness and peace of mind belongs
to us! "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God."

[Esaias]

I can generally agree with your take on it. However, what if a message from God challenges a current interpretation of Scripture?

For example, the revelation of Oneness challenged the common Trinitarian interpretation of its day. There is also the Spirit's leading in regards to slavery that challenged the current interpretations of Scripture as it related to slavery in its day.

If a revelation agrees with scripture, then all else being equal it should be received. Trinitarianism was and is unscriptural. God is constantly trying to call people out of man made traditions and back to the Bible.

Re the slavery issue, the Bible nowhere commands any nation to continue slavery or maintain it. The Bible does give rules for its management assuming the institution exists. It should also be noted that antebellum slavery seems to have violated in some ways those Biblical commands.

[jfrog]

If a revelation agrees with scripture, then all else being equal it should be received. Trinitarianism was and is unscriptural. God is constantly trying to call people out of man made traditions and back to the Bible.

Re the slavery issue, the Bible nowhere commands any nation to continue slavery or maintain it. The Bible does give rules for its management assuming the institution exists. It should also be noted that antebellum slavery seems to have violated in some ways those Biblical commands.

If slavery was wrong the bible should say to free your slaves instead of giving rules on managing them...

[Timmy]

I've contemplated journaling some of my talks with God. Approach God with a repentant heart. Confess known sin. Seek forgiveness, grace, and patience. Testify of your faith in Christ and praise God for His grace and mercy. Realize your justification before His throne and how your righteousness is as filthy rags, yet you are clothed in Christ's righteousness through faith.

For those who might be interested in hearing from the Lord, one method I've found to be useful is as follows:

STOP - Quiet your mind so that you can hear God's voice. (Psalms 46:10; Lamentations 3:26; Job 29:21; Psalms 62:5; Matthew 14:23; Mark 1:35)

LOOK - As you press into the Spirit do not allow yourself to be distracted by any outside stimuli. Become fixed upon the Lord's presence. Pray in tongues, seek spiritual saturation, feel and experience your communion in Spirit. Share your thoughts and concerns. Look for vision as you pray. As God to speak to you. Allow yourself to see and experience yourself in communion with God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 6:18; John 15:7; Matthew 21:22; 1 John 5:14-15; Isaiah 55:6; Matthew 7:7; Psalms 55:17; Psalms 88:13; 1 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 11:6; John 4:24; Luke 18:1)

LISTEN - Recognize God's voice as a spontaneous flow of thoughts and visions which light upon your spirit. (John 10:27; John 16:13; John 6:63; James 1:19-27; Romans 8:14; John 8:47; John 14:26; John 10:16; Jeremiah 33:3; Psalms 32:8-9; 1 John 1:7; Psalms 5:3; 2 Peter 1:21; Exodus 33:18-23; Revelation 22:1)

WRITE - Write down the flow of thoughts and visions that come to you. (Habakkuk 2:2; Joel 2:28; Exodus 17:14; Psalm 45:1; Proverbs 3:3; Isaiah 8:1; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Habakkuk 2:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:17; 2 Peter 3:1; 1 John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Jude 1:3; Revelation 1:11; Revelation 1:19; Revelation 21:5)

. . .

Seems dangerous. It would also work for channeling any spirits! :lol Or for tapping your own normally subconscious thoughts and intuitions, or course, which you can't distinguish from God (or anyone else's) voice. IMO. ;)

[Timmy]

Timmy, allow me to try and instill some "reason" to all of the "rhyme" that has been posted in response to your fictional "piece of paper" from God (I'm NOT attempting to make "light" of the words of others, just being candid).

I also had a younger brother (who was also my "best friend") who died from the devastating effect of cancer. Even I prayed for him to be healed, as well as countless others, but it just never happened. However, know this .... I did NOT, nor do I now, blame God because he wasn't healed. Rather, I blame myself. Yes, that's correct, myself! Here is why, and I witness the same thing again and again, in fact, almost every time I attend worship services at the church I attend. It all comes down to an absence of FAITH! No, not on the part of the afflicted one whom I and others pray for their healing, rather it is because of the absence of FAITH on my part!

You see, before He ascended bodily to His throne located in the invisible heavens, the Lord Jesus Christ "commissioned" HIs disciples, empowering them to "lay hands on the sick and they shall recover" (Mark 16:18). On an earlier occasion He said to them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do" (John 14:12). This same apostle (John) would later, in his 1st epistle to the members of the 1st Century churches, wrote to inform them (and this same thing is applicable to every member of the contemporary church) that, "because as he is (referring to the Lord Jesus Christ), so are we in this world" (I John 4:17). This saying is true, but how many members of the church today practice it? Note that I did NOT ask how many members of the church "believe" it, for I am convinced that most do. The problem is in putting that "belief" (or, faith) into actual practice.

Did the apostles of the 1st Century "believe" they possessed the power to heal the sick, give strength to the lame, or even, yes, raise the dead to life again? Absolutely, and they, in fact, did all of these things, and even more. WHY? Because they put their "faith" into action. You see, it was NOT the "faith" of a dead woman named Tabitha, when Peter entered the room where she lay, and kneeled down and prayed, and said, "Tabitha, arise!" and she opened her eyes and saw Peter and sat up. No, the dead don't have nor are they able to display their "faith." It was Peter's "faith" in the words of our Lord who informed him that He was granting him that ability! That is what enabled Tabitha to be awakened from the "sleep of death." And if I had only known, and understood that as I do at this very moment, when almost six years ago I prayed for my youngest brother's healing, I am persuaded that he would be alive today! And by the same token, I am persuaded to believe that if those who laid hand on or prayed for your brother's healing had truly possessed the "faith" in our Lord's promise as they should have, there would be no discussion such as this for it would not be needed!

In Paul's words to the young evangelist Timothy, we read that he admonished him, saying, "Lay hands suddenly on NO man" (see I Timothy 5:22). Some, perhaps even many, read this and believe Paul was telling Timothy not to become engaged in a physical confrontation with another. And then there are those, such as I, who interpret Paul's words to imply that when we are preparing to lay our hands upon someone who is afflicted with a sickness or disease of some kind, or perhaps to even lay our hand upon someone who has died for the intent of restoring them to life again, we MUST never do so "suddenly," that is, in a happenstance manner or without FIRST having prayed and receiving assurance from the Spirit that the results which we desire will actually transpire. To do so without possessing such unwavering "faith" that what we are about to undertake to accomplish will actually happen, can only bring despair and a sense of hopelessness in those who observe our actions, but even worse, to the individual to whom we are seeking to heal.

No, I'm not trying to place blame on those who prayed for or laid their hands on your brother and he was not healed. Not at all. God forbid! What I am saying is that they did not FULLY PREPARE themselves before they undertook to do such a thing, just as I failed to do so with my youngest brother. Today, right at this very instance, one of my closes friends has lost all sight in one of his eyes. All of the medical specialists he has visited have given him the same bad news - "Your sight in that eye is gone forever!" I want so much to lay my hands on his eye, and pray for its complete restoration. I believe that can happen. In fact, I have absolutely NO doubts whatsoever that his sight will be restored, completely! So what's preventing me from laying my hands on him and praying for his healing, you many wonder. Well, it is this .... I will continue to pray for that to happen, and I will at some moment in the near future do so and he will be healed, but ONLY "after" I have received assurance from God that it will happen. And I am even now awaiting for that confirmation.

In summary, I beg of you not to feel bitterness or hatred, or any type of harsh feeling because your brother did not receive the healing you and he so desired. Please do NOT allow it to destroy your "faith" in God's ability to heal others, or even yourself should the occasion arise in the future that you are in need of His healing. And above all else, do not allow "unbelief" in the ability of others to whom God has granted the "power" to perform miracles of healings to dampen or diminish your belief that there are those who DO possess and exercise that "power"!

It is my prayerful hope that all of the things I've written here will be beneficial to you in some small way to know that God cares and He is still a miracle working Savior! I assure you that there are those today who do possess the "faith" required to use the "power" that God gives to His saints to perform miracles of healing the lame and the sick and diseased, and yes, even restore the dead to life again.

You prayed for your brother and he died. You take the blame.

I prayed for my brother and he died. You are not blaming me. Not at all. God forbid.

Would you like to rewrite that post to make sense, or shall I just disregard it? Up to you.

[Timmy]

. . . I assure you that there are those today who do possess the "faith" required to use the "power" that God gives to His saints to perform miracles of healing the lame and the sick and diseased, and yes, even restore the dead to life again.

Nobody can restore the dead to life again, unless you are talking about a very limited time after a heart stops, but that would be resuscitation, and it happens every day. People do it, and in some cases there were prayers, and I guarantee you the ones doing the praying gave God all the glory, whether He had anything to do with it or not. Happens without prayers, too, of course.

[Timmy]

By the way, I don't blame God for anything. Why would I? Why would anyone think that I do?

[shazeep]

If slavery was wrong the bible should say to free your slaves instead of giving rules on managing them...well, there are slaves and then there are slaves; it was not uncommon for a person to sell themselves into slavery then.

[Esaias]

Nobody can restore the dead to life again, unless you are talking about a very limited time after a heart stops, but that would be resuscitation, and it happens every day. People do it, and in some cases there were prayers, and I guarantee you the ones doing the praying gave God all the glory, whether He had anything to do with it or not. Happens without prayers, too, of course.

Since (according to you) the dead are not raised, then how do you explain the existence of Christianity? Were the first Christians liars? Or just deluded?

[Abiding Now]

If you don't believe that the dead are raised, you need to be at my workplace at 5:00pm on Friday.

[shazeep]

:lol the spiritually dead might also be 'raised,' in a sense.

Has anyone volunteered the "miracles are for the lost" passage yet, T? I'm pretty sure it was Christ telling the disciples this, but my search phrase is not helping me...

[shazeep]

I will continue to pray for that to happen, and I will at some moment in the near future do so and he will be healed, but ONLY "after" I have received assurance from God that it will happen. And I am even now awaiting for that confirmation.Nice, Lafon. I'd be interested in the developments there, send us a report! HNY to all!

[Lafon]

Healing, as is salvation, is a promise.

The Prophet Isaiah looked to the future and saw the cross, and declared. "By His stripes we ARE
healed." The Old Testament believers could appropriate healing for their bodies through the promise.

The Apostle Peter looked back to the cross and declared, "By whose stripes we were healed."
The Church should be told that healing, deliverance, forgiveness and peace of mind belongs
to us! "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God."


Oh! How our Lord willingly allowed Himself to be beaten; first by the Jews of ancient Israel who repeatedly struck (i.e., "smote") him with the palms of their hands, and a short while later when the Roman soldiers used a reed to flail His body. It was such a horrible sight to look upon His broken, severely beaten body; deep gashes in His back, blood oozing from them! It was so pitiful looking that many there turned their heads, being repulsed at the sight they had seen! And just think, all this physical torture so that "by His stripes" we might receive "healings" of our physical body!

How often have you heard someone make such statements? Quite often, yes? In fact, those who make such statements even refer to the scriptural passages of Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 (just as you've done) in an attempt to lend credibility to their claim. Well, it simply is NOT true! Yes, that's correct, its just NOT true!

In my humble opinion (be it right or wrong; I'll leave that for the Lord to decide), I am persuaded to believe there prevails a widespread misunderstanding among contemporary One God Apostolic Pentecostal Christians concerning a "figure of speech," if you please, that was used in the writings of the prophet Isaiah, as well as those of Peter the apostle, and is generally interpreted in the literal sense to imply physical "healings," when, in fact, it actually refers to something altogether different.

I am referring specifically to the word "stripes" found in the following passages wherein reference has been made to the physical beating our Lord suffered at the hand of both the accusing Jews and the Roman soldiers at the time of His crucifixion. Let's look carefully at these passages:

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" [Isaiah 53:5]
"Who his own self bare our sins in own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" [I Peter 2:24].

Calling attention to the words of Proverbs 25:2, which advise that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:..." then I believe it imperative, if we are to properly comprehend the "esoteric" content of Isaiah and Peter's statements wherein reference is made to the "stripes" which were inflicted upon our Lord's physical body at the time of His crucifixion, we MUST carefully examine the context of the scriptural passages wherein this word appears to discover what is being stated.

Isaiah, as well as Peter, wrote to advise us that our Lord allowed sinful men to inflict many blows upon His physical body, however, none of this was done so that you and I, or any other, might receive "healings" of the physical sicknesses and diseases that might be inflicted upon our physical bodies. While hoping I don't come across as being ridiculous, I must state that such an interpretation of their words are absolutely ludicrous and altogether wrong!

Please note that In Isaiah's statement he is referring to "our transgressions," "our iniquities," and "our peace" (that is, our need for reconciliation to God); while Peter has written to advise us that our Lord was crucified because of "our sins." In other words, the "stripes," or physical beating, was all an integral part of the physical suffering He willingly underwent while sacrificing His physical body, and the subsequent shedding of His life's blood, as a token of atonement for "our sins."

Isaiah explicitly wrote that it was "with his stripes we are HEALED" of "our transgressions" and "our iniquities," whereas Peter wrote that it was "BY whose stripes" ye were HEALED" of "our sins." Neither made any mention whatsoever about our physical healing! Rather, the "stripes" (i.e., beatings) our Lord allowed sinful men to inflict upon His physical body at the time of His crucifixion was part and parcel of the physical suffering He willingly underwent to EFFECTUATE God's plan for the redemption of the souls of sinful mankind!

We do NOT gain or acquire "healings" for our physical ailments as a result of the "stripes" and physical beating our Lord received prior to His crucifixion, rather such is obtained through the power of His Name! This fact is made indisputably clear in our Lord's words recorded in Mark 16:17-18, to wit, "And these signs shall follow them that believe: IN MY NAME ... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

An excellent example of this is seen when Peter took the hand of the lame man at the gate of the temple in Jerusalem and said, "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk" (see Acts 3:1-8). Peter did NOT tell the lame man to "rise up and walk" because the Lord allowed Himself to suffer horrendous physical torture so that the likes of you could be HEALED!!

[Lafon]

By the way, I don't blame God for anything. Why would I? Why would anyone think that I do?

I didn't state that you blamed God, only suggested that you NOT do so. Neither do I blame you for your brother not being healed. If I left that impression, I beg your forgiveness!

[Timmy]

I didn't state that you blamed God, only suggested that you NOT do so. Neither do I blame you for your brother not being healed. If I left that impression, I beg your forgiveness!

OK.

Have you seen my other post?

[mfblume]

Timmy, you really did take things way too far and offcourse to get so upset with Christianity when your brother died, though I do not belittle the thought of his loss in any way by saying this. People died in the bible without healing, too! But that did not stop folks from serving God.

[Timmy]

:lol the spiritually dead might also be 'raised,' in a sense.

Has anyone volunteered the "miracles are for the lost" passage yet, T? I'm pretty sure it was Christ telling the disciples this, but my search phrase is not helping me...

Could you be thinking of 1 Corinthians 14, saying tongues are for unbelievers?

[Timmy]

Timmy, you really did take things way too far and offcourse to get so upset with Christianity when your brother died, though I do not belittle the thought of his loss in any way by saying this. People died in the bible without healing, too! But that did not stop folks from serving God.

I may have misled here, but that was really just one piece of it. Many, many other factors.

[shazeep]

Could you be thinking of 1 Corinthians 14, saying tongues are for unbelievers?well, i'll sleep on that, as it is for the same reasoning--i thought--that miracles were for unbelievers...

[thephnxman]

Oh! How our Lord willingly allowed Himself to be beaten; first by the Jews of ancient Israel who repeatedly struck (i.e., "smote") him with the palms of their hands, and a short while later when the Roman soldiers used a reed to flail His body. It was such a horrible sight to look upon His broken, severely beaten body; deep gashes in His back, blood oozing from them! It was so pitiful looking that many there turned their heads, being repulsed at the sight they had seen! And just think, all this physical torture so that "by His stripes" we might receive "healings" of our physical body!
How often have you heard someone make such statements? Quite often, yes? In fact, those who make such statements even refer to the scriptural passages of Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 (just as you've done) in an attempt to lend credibility to their claim. Well, it simply is NOT true! Yes, that's correct, its just NOT true!
In my humble opinion (be it right or wrong; I'll leave that for the Lord to decide), I am persuaded to believe there prevails a widespread misunderstanding among contemporary One God Apostolic Pentecostal Christians concerning a "figure of speech," if you please, that was used in the writings of the prophet Isaiah, as well as those of Peter the apostle, and is generally interpreted in the literal sense to imply physical "healings," when, in fact, it actually refers to something altogether different.
I am referring specifically to the word "stripes" found in the following passages wherein reference has been made to the physical beating our Lord suffered at the hand of both the accusing Jews and the Roman soldiers at the time of His crucifixion. Let's look carefully at these passages:
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" [Isaiah 53:5]
"Who his own self bare our sins in own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" [I Peter 2:24].
Calling attention to the words of Proverbs 25:2, which advise that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:..." then I believe it imperative, if we are to properly comprehend the "esoteric" content of Isaiah and Peter's statements wherein reference is made to the "stripes" which were inflicted upon our Lord's physical body at the time of His crucifixion, we MUST carefully examine the context of the scriptural passages wherein this word appears to discover what is being stated.
Isaiah, as well as Peter, wrote to advise us that our Lord allowed sinful men to inflict many blows upon His physical body, however, none of this was done so that you and I, or any other, might receive "healings" of the physical sicknesses and diseases that might be inflicted upon our physical bodies. While hoping I don't come across as being ridiculous, I must state that such an interpretation of their words are absolutely ludicrous and altogether wrong!
Please note that In Isaiah's statement he is referring to "our transgressions," "our iniquities," and "our peace" (that is, our need for reconciliation to God); while Peter has written to advise us that our Lord was crucified because of "our sins." In other words, the "stripes," or physical beating, was all an integral part of the physical suffering He willingly underwent while sacrificing His physical body, and the subsequent shedding of His life's blood, as a token of atonement for "our sins."

Isaiah explicitly wrote that it was "with his stripes we are HEALED" of "our transgressions" and "our iniquities," whereas Peter wrote that it was "BY whose stripes" ye were HEALED" of "our sins." Neither made any mention whatsoever about our physical healing! Rather, the "stripes" (i.e., beatings) our Lord allowed sinful men to inflict upon His physical body at the time of His crucifixion was part and parcel of the physical suffering He willingly underwent to EFFECTUATE God's plan for the redemption of the souls of sinful mankind!
We do NOT gain or acquire "healings" for our physical ailments as a result of the "stripes" and physical beating our Lord received prior to His crucifixion, rather such is obtained through the power of His Name! This fact is made indisputably clear in our Lord's words recorded in Mark 16:17-18, to wit, "And these signs shall follow them that believe: IN MY NAME ... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
An excellent example of this is seen when Peter took the hand of the lame man at the gate of the temple in Jerusalem and said, "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk" (see Acts 3:1-8). Peter did NOT tell the lame man to "rise up and walk" because the Lord allowed Himself to suffer horrendous physical torture so that the likes of you could be HEALED!!

THERE IT IS! The reason many Christians are not healed: it is the preaching against
divine healing. We're talking New Testament, folks; and there are various modes of healing:

Authority to the Church

1) "...these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick...";
2) "...is any sick...send for the elders of the Church..."'

Spiritual Gifts

3) "...the word of knowledge...": the Spirit reveals the problem to the Church, who
declares the problem to the recipient for...;
4) "...faith..."[/I: the Spirit moves faith upon a member, who declares the healing;
5) [I] "...gifts of healing...": the sick asks for healing, and the Spirit moves in a member to pray;
6) ...working of miracles...; the Spirit moves on a member to pray for the sick.

Perhaps we have neglected this scripture: "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by
the word of God." If we HEAR the word, we receive faith; but if we hear a man, well...

I have been a witness to too many healings and miracles to deny the power of God...and I don't mean [TV] healings!

[Timmy]

well, i'll sleep on that, as it is for the same reasoning--i thought--that miracles were for unbelievers...

Now I recall there are places that talk about miracles and signs that "prove" Jesus is for real (paraphrased), but I don't remember specifics.

[Timmy]

Pardon the quote marks, but I think it's funny, considering the warnings against false signs.

[mfblume]

I may have misled here, but that was really just one piece of it. Many, many other factors.

Many factors similarly occurred with many other people as well, who still believed.

[Timmy]

Many factors similarly occurred with many other people as well, who still believed.

Yeah, they've better than me, so freakin what?! The Christian message is all about how awful and weak and stupid we humans are, but when someone walks away rather than fight on and keep the faith, NO MATTER WHAT, it's time to DUMP on him for being awful and weak and stupid.

You make me sick. Seriously.

[mfblume]

Yeah, they've better than me, so freakin what?! The Christian message is all about how awful and weak and stupid we humans are, but when someone walks away rather than fight on and keep the faith, NO MATTER WHAT, it's time to DUMP on him for being awful and weak and stupid.

You make me sick. Seriously.

You say this after years of mockery of our faith on this forum? Seriously?

1 Cor 10:13

You take a lot of things wrong, let alone why things go wrong. No one is dumping on you. Just trying to get you to hold faith again and be recovered.

[Abiding Now]

One time I found a $20 bill, it was a good day.

[Timmy]

You say this after years of mockery of our faith on this forum? Seriously?

1 Cor 10:13

You take a lot of things wrong, let alone why things go wrong. No one is dumping on you. Just trying to get you to hold faith again and be recovered.

You're hilarious.

Ok, how about you give me a reason I should come back to your religion. I know of none.

[thephnxman]

Pardon the quote marks, but I think it's funny, considering the warnings against false signs.

There will be "false" signs; including, perhaps, healing , and wonders in the heavens. But
the false signs do not glorify the Lord Jesus; instead, they divert away
from the truth that is in the gospel.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe in my NAME: they shall cast out devils;
they shall speak in new tongues...", etc.

The NAME that the scriptures refer to is the NAME that was given to a child born of a virgin;
it refers to a child who grew to be a man without sin; it is the NAME of "...the Lamb of God
that takes away the sin of the world."; it refers to the NAME of the ONE falsely accused
and was crucified, who was buried and "...rose again the third day according to the
scriptures." And it is the NAME upon whom the Church invokes over a repentant sinner
"...for the remission of sins."

When the Church uses that NAME, Jesus, it refers to all the aforementioned!

[mfblume]

You're hilarious.

Ok, how about you give me a reason I should come back to your religion. I know of none.hillarous? Whatever.


First of all, because the reasons you have to leave are empty. They lack the faith that the bible said all along was necessary, as I've pointed out many times. Many have stood strong in faith with worse situations than you or I ever knew that would attack faith. And like atheists, not saying you are one, the strongest fighters of faith are simply those disillusioned after a genuine passion of faith. Every reason you ever gave lacks genuine reasons to leave, knowing proper truth of the bible.

[Lafon]

THERE IT IS! The reason many Christians are not healed: it is the preaching against
divine healing. We're talking New Testament, folks; and there are various modes of healing:

Authority to the Church

1) "...these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick...";
2) "...is any sick...send for the elders of the Church..."'

Spiritual Gifts

3) "...the word of knowledge...": the Spirit reveals the problem to the Church, who
declares the problem to the recipient for...;
4) "...faith..."[/I: the Spirit moves faith upon a member, who declares the healing;
5) [I] "...gifts of healing...": the sick asks for healing, and the Spirit moves in a member to pray;
6) ...working of miracles...; the Spirit moves on a member to pray for the sick.

Perhaps we have neglected this scripture: "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by
the word of God." If we HEAR the word, we receive faith; but if we hear a man, well...

I have been a witness to too many healings and miracles to deny the power of God...and I don't mean [TV] healings!


Wow! Give me a break, PLEASE! Read my post again, only this time do it real slowly.

Where did I preach AGAINST "divine healing"? I did NOT state, suggest, or in ANY manner insinuate that "divine healing" does NOT still happen today! I am NOT a FOOL, nor would I ever make such a FOOLISH statement!

What I did, however, was REFUTE your assertion that "divine healings" comes about as a direct consequence of the physical beatings ("stripes") our Lord endured at the time of His crucifixion, showing how the words of Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 are statements showing that such "stripes" were endured for the "healing" of our SINS, TRANSGRESSIONS, and INIQUITIES!

[thephnxman]

Wow! Give me a break, PLEASE! Read my post again, only this time do it real slowly.
Where did I preach AGAINST "divine healing"? I did NOT state, suggest, or in ANY manner insinuate that "divine healing" does NOT still happen today! I am NOT a FOOL, nor would I ever make such a FOOLISH statement!
What I did, however, was REFUTE your assertion that "divine healings" comes about as a direct consequence of the physical beatings ("stripes") our Lord endured at the time of His crucifixion, showing how the words of Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 are statements showing that such "stripes" were endured for the "healing" of our SINS, TRANSGRESSIONS, and INIQUITIES!

I re-read your post...and mine. I did not refer to the sins, transgressions, and iniquities, but to
the healing of our bodies: sickness, infirmities, etc. As for the sacrifice on the cross:
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the
chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
Our transgressions (sins before we believed), and iniquities (sins AFTER coming to the knowledge
of the truth) are definitely covered. Also, you are quite correct in asserting that we have received
our peace with God. Isaiah presents promises to all areas of our lives: spiritual (transgressions &
iniquities), mental (chastised for our peace), and physical (illnesses, etc.).

You quoted Mk. 16:16. Yes, that is ONE-WAY to receive/impart healing: I cannot but totally
agree with you: not disregarding the "gifts", nor elders of the Church, etc.

Whosoever has repented, had their sins remitted in His NAME, and received God's gift (Holy Spirit),
then they have also received the authority given to the Church to "...lay hands on the sick, and
they SHALL be healed."

"...and whosoever shall direct his conversation aright, I will show the salvation of God."

[Esaias]

It always comes down to "God didn't give me what I wanted, so therefore God doesn't exist."

I cannot see how such people - who "lose their faith" because God didn't make them happy - ever had real faith to begin with.

But this is really the fault of modern evangelism, presenting Jesus as Santa Claus in disguise...

[thephnxman]

It always comes down to "God didn't give me what I wanted, so therefore God doesn't exist."
I cannot see how such people - who "lose their faith" because God didn't make them happy - ever had real faith to begin with.
But this is really the fault of modern evangelism, presenting Jesus as Santa Claus in disguise...

That's too close to the truth for too many people.

God has given us everything we NEED; however, the things we need are all wrapped
up in His promises...but too many folks want to be spoon fed, instead of
taking literal possession of what is already ours.

[Timmy]

That's too close to the truth for too many people.

God has given us everything we NEED; however, the things we need are all wrapped
up in His promises...but too many folks want to be spoon fed, instead of
taking literal possession of what is already ours.

Promises such as?

[thephnxman]

Promises such as?

To some, they are "...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

But to the Church: they are the promises made to the Israelites, but fulfilled for us: "For all the promises of God in him are YEA, and in him, Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

If you seek His will, you will also KNOW His promises.

[shazeep]

But this is really the fault of modern evangelism, presenting Jesus as Santa Claus in disguise...ty

[Timmy]

To some, they are "...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

But to the Church: they are the promises made to the Israelites, but fulfilled for us: "For all the promises of God in him are YEA, and in him, Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

If you seek His will, you will also KNOW His promises.

Presumably, you have sought His will. So why not tell me what they are? At least some of them?

[Timmy]

hillarous? Whatever.


First of all, because the reasons you have to leave are empty. They lack the faith that the bible said all along was necessary, as I've pointed out many times. Many have stood strong in faith with worse situations than you or I ever knew that would attack faith. And like atheists, not saying you are one, the strongest fighters of faith are simply those disillusioned after a genuine passion of faith. Every reason you ever gave lacks genuine reasons to leave, knowing proper truth of the bible.

Ending my depression was not an empty reason. Or maybe it was in, your opinion, but that matters exactly 0 to me. Depression was going to kill me.

Anyway, I was hoping for a better reason than "You shouldn't have left in the first place" or "You did it wrong, so you should try again." Can you actually give me some reason to believe the things you think I should believe?

[Timmy]

Oh, and "proper truth" is another example of your hilarity. As if you Apostolics can agree on even the simplest things.

[Esaias]

Oh, and "proper truth" is another example of your hilarity. As if you Apostolics can agree on even the simplest things.

Like agnostics and atheists can agree on "even the simplest things" lol.

Earlier you asked why? Because God is real, the Bible is true (regardless of what men agree on), and Jesus will be your Judge, or more specifically, His Word.

Now if you don't believe that, fine. Enjoy your life, what you have left of it anyway, before your Appointment with God comes due. Meanwhile, those of us who know the Lord will keep on keeping on

"The world behind me, the cross before me...no turning back, no turning back."

Or as Jesus said, "No man putting his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit to be my disciple." EDIT: He said no man putting his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[jfrog]

Timmy, is there anything that could convince you that the God of Christianity is real? If so what would it be?

[shazeep]

Could it be that God is real, but the religion is corrupted?

[Timmy]

Like agnostics and atheists can agree on "even the simplest things" lol. . . .

:blink

[Timmy]

Timmy, is there anything that could convince you that the God of Christianity is real? If so what would it be?

Good question. I don't know, but I suspect not. Not in the sense that some combination of words when placed before me would make me say "Ah yes! That's true! I've never thought of it that way!" But I'm giving MB a chance to try, and anyone else who wants to.

But if that doesn't work, they could try another approach: tell me of what benefit it would be to believe the way they do. What good things will happen? Not necessarily to me, or only to me, but perhaps to my loved ones. Or who knows, maybe some other kind of benefit. I'll let them figure that out. And if they can convince me that they are correct, that all those good things will happen, and there aren't some horrible things to counter them in balance, I'll convert.

Now, "convert" might be tough to pin down: I'm not sure I can literally believe what I'm expected to believe -- in the sense that I really consider it all true* -- but I will at least come back to church, put in a good effort to follow the rules (please, nobody jump in here and say something ridiculous like "there are no rules", because everyone knows there are), and call myself a Christian again.

I'm serious.

* - "true" in the common meaning of the English word. Man, I have to be careful around here! :lol

[Timmy]

Could it be that God is real, but the religion is corrupted?

Of course.

[Timmy]

Like agnostics and atheists can agree on "even the simplest things" lol.

Earlier you asked why? Because God is real, the Bible is true (regardless of what men agree on), and Jesus will be your Judge, or more specifically, His Word.

Now if you don't believe that, fine. Enjoy your life, what you have left of it anyway, before your Appointment with God comes due. Meanwhile, those of us who know the Lord will keep on keeping on

"The world behind me, the cross before me...no turning back, no turning back."

Or as Jesus said, "No man putting his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit to be my disciple." EDIT: He said no man putting his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Nice opinions you've got there.

(Above is an example of what won't work. Not sure how anyone would even think it might.)

[Esaias]

Nice opinions you've got there.

(Above is an example of what won't work. Not sure how anyone would even think it might.)

I've never understood why people who abandon faith in God expect Christians to try and sweet-talk them back into the faith. Why do you think I'm the least bit concerned with trying to "say something that will work"? Hebrews 6 says concerning those who apostasize that they are like thorns and briars and are rejected and destined for the burn pile.

Why would you be concerned about Christians simply recognizing you have made your choice? Don't you want us to respect your decisions? I do. You reject Christ, God, the gospel. You have decided God - as presented in Scripture - isn't up to your standards. He doesn't meet your approval. So you have no need for him or his Way or his people.

Why would you have any objection whatsoever to hearing God accepts your rejection of his salvation?

I mean it's like you come here to tell us 1001 reasons why God isn't real and why you aren't a Christian, and yet you expect everyone to bend over backwards to try and "win you back".

God isn't at anyone's beck and call. God isn't whining and begging for YOUR approval.

People are so goofy. They act as if everything revolves around them, as if they are the center of the universe.

But it's not entirely your fault I suppose. Like I suggested earlier you're probably a victim of bad evangelism, the sorry kind that has Jesus begging outside your door just HOPING he can get an audience with you, so you'll honour him with an opportunity to "save" you. As if Jesus was applying for a job and you are doing the interview! lol

[Timmy]

I've never understood why people who abandon faith in God expect Christians to try and sweet-talk them back into the faith. Why do you think I'm the least bit concerned with trying to "say something that will work"? Hebrews 6 says concerning those who apostasize that they are like thorns and briars and are rejected and destined for the burn pile.

Why would you be concerned about Christians simply recognizing you have made your choice? Don't you want us to respect your decisions? I do. You reject Christ, God, the gospel. You have decided God - as presented in Scripture - isn't up to your standards. He doesn't meet your approval. So you have no need for him or his Way or his people.

Why would you have any objection whatsoever to hearing God accepts your rejection of his salvation?

I mean it's like you come here to tell us 1001 reasons why God isn't real and why you aren't a Christian, and yet you expect everyone to bend over backwards to try and "win you back".

God isn't at anyone's beck and call. God isn't whining and begging for YOUR approval.

People are so goofy. They act as if everything revolves around them, as if they are the center of the universe.

But it's not entirely your fault I suppose. Like I suggested earlier you're probably a victim of bad evangelism, the sorry kind that has Jesus begging outside your door just HOPING he can get an audience with you, so you'll honour him with an opportunity to "save" you. As if Jesus was applying for a job and you are doing the interview! lol

Okay.

[Timmy]

What do you guys tell unbelievers who never were believers? How do you (if you do!) try to get them to believe as you do, and to do what they need to do to be saved?

[jfrog]

Good question. I don't know, but I suspect not. Not in the sense that some combination of words when placed before me would make me say "Ah yes! That's true! I've never thought of it that way!" But I'm giving MB a chance to try, and anyone else who wants to.

But if that doesn't work, they could try another approach: tell me of what benefit it would be to believe the way they do. What good things will happen? Not necessarily to me, or only to me, but perhaps to my loved ones. Or who knows, maybe some other kind of benefit. I'll let them figure that out. And if they can convince me that they are correct, that all those good things will happen, and there aren't some horrible things to counter them in balance, I'll convert.

Now, "convert" might be tough to pin down: I'm not sure I can literally believe what I'm expected to believe -- in the sense that I really consider it all true* -- but I will at least come back to church, put in a good effort to follow the rules (please, nobody jump in here and say something ridiculous like "there are no rules", because everyone knows there are), and call myself a Christian again.

I'm serious.

* - "true" in the common meaning of the English word. Man, I have to be careful around here! :lol

That's fair. What about a miracle? Would that convince you?

[Esaias]

What do you guys tell unbelievers who never were believers? How do you (if you do!) try to get them to believe as you do, and to do what they need to do to be saved?

According to the Bible our job is to proclaim the gospel. God has the responsibility to "convert" people as He chooses. When WE try to do God's job, trying to "sell" the gospel and do everything we can to "convince" people, we invariably pervert the gospel into a marketing ploy or gimmick. And the results are tons of weak, self centered Christians who tend to fall out with God as soon as trouble comes along.

Paul said "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." That is, Paul wasn't sent to "win people to Jesus", he was sent to proclaim the gospel (saving people is God's job).

[Timmy]

That's fair. What about a miracle? Would that convince you?

Another good question!

I'd have to say I'd be open to the possibility, but again, it's unlikely. There are many problems with the idea that miracles should convince anyone of whatever theology the miracle maker espouses to. Probably the most obvious is that the miracle could have been caused by any number of things, and not just the particular God being touted. See Aaron and the magicians in their contest of dueling miracles.

But it depends on the miracle, maybe. If God were to miraculously rewire my brain so it would suddenly believe what He wanted me to, then yeah. I'd be "convinced". ;)

[Timmy]

Oh, and the trouble with virtually all modern-day miracles is that they are indistinguishable from natural phenomena that happen to be somewhat (or very) amazing to see. Unusual doesn't necessarily equal divine intervention.

E.g., people do recover from cancer. People do find lost items. Parking places do appear. :heeheehee

[Timmy]

Anyone think it's a little weird that Lafon won't lay hands on someone for healing until God tells him to? Does the Bible tell him that it works that way? "Lay hands suddenly on NO man"? Really?

[mfblume]

I mean it's like you come here to tell us 1001 reasons why God isn't real and why you aren't a Christian, and yet you expect everyone to bend over backwards to try and "win you back".

Amen. A person who is not a frame of mind to humbly sincerely seek God without a smirk and attitude, "Yeah, right," cannot be dealt with.

[Timmy]

Amen. A person who is not a frame of mind to humbly sincerely seek God without a smirk and attitude, "Yeah, right," cannot be dealt with.

And you can't tell my why I should humbly seek God. Again.

[Esaias]

Oh, and the trouble with virtually all modern-day miracles is that they are indistinguishable from natural phenomena that happen to be somewhat (or very) amazing to see. Unusual doesn't necessarily equal divine intervention.

E.g., people do recover from cancer. People do find lost items. Parking places do appear. :heeheehee

"Please, father Abraham, send Lazarus, my brothers will believe if you send Lazarus!"

"Nay, they have Moses and the prophets... if they will not hear them, then neither will they believe even though someone were to be raised from the dead."

[Esaias]

And you can't tell my why I should humbly seek God. Again.

Amazing how blind people can be. "Tell me WHY I should humbly seek God"... lol

Timmy, IF there's a God then "why" should be self evident. You should HUMBLY seek God ie BELIEVE and OBEY God because it is RIGHT to do so. It is right to give honour to whom it is due. God by definition is deserving of honour and obedience. It is not only demanded by his nature as the supreme being, it is demanded by our nature as his creation. The obligation is a natural product of our nature and relations.

As moral agents we are obliged to do what is right. It is right for subjects to obey their Sovereign, especially when the Sovereign is infinitely wise and supremely benevolent, which God is.

To argue otherwise is, by definition, rebellion. And every Sovereign is DUTY BOUND to punish rebellion, even more so when pardon is offered and spurned. And how much more severe the guilt, and punishment, for TREASON?

[Timmy]

God has never told me to do anything, so there is nothing to obey or to rebellion against.

[Timmy]

"Please, father Abraham, send Lazarus, my brothers will believe if you send Lazarus!"

"Nay, they have Moses and the prophets... if they will not hear them, then neither will they believe even though someone were to be raised from the dead."

There ya go. The Bible agrees with me. ;)

[Aquila]

What do you guys tell unbelievers who never were believers? How do you (if you do!) try to get them to believe as you do, and to do what they need to do to be saved?

I don't look at it like trying to get anyone to believe as I do. In my opinion, it's God's choice to begin drawing people to Himself when and how He desires to draw them. I'm to simply respond with sharing the Gospel when the time comes, as He leads.

[mfblume]

Throw the seed out there, and some will fall on shallow ground, some stony, some thorny but some on good ground! We cannot change the ground. We just throw the seed.

[Timmy]

I don't look at it like trying to get anyone to believe as I do. In my opinion, it's God's choice to begin drawing people to Himself when and how He desires to draw them. I'm to simply respond with sharing the Gospel when the time comes, as He leads.

So God has chosen me not to believe. Awesome.

[Timmy]

Throw the seed out there, and some will fall on shallow ground, some stony, some thorny but some on good ground! We cannot change the ground. We just throw the seed.

That's really how all religions work, far as I know.

[shazeep]

hmm, one loses their religion by the same route, more or less. They either abandon God in the process, or come to a more personal understanding of him...actually, religion requires a cult~ivator, it seems to me, that the parable does not allow for! :D

[thephnxman]

So God has chosen me not to believe. Awesome.

Wake up, Timmy!

Surely it is God that leads a person to His son, and to repentance, etc.
But had God not cared about YOU...well, you would not be on this
forum trying to dissuade Him!

[Aquila]

So God has chosen me not to believe. Awesome.

If God has chosen you not to believe, you'd not be here discussing this. I believe you're kicking against the goads.

[Timmy]

smh

[mfblume]

If God has chosen you not to believe, you'd not be here discussing this. I believe you're kicking against the goads.

Right, since Timmy did believe at one time. He sadly fell departed due to circumstances in which he did not find the escape God provided (1 Cor 10:13).

[Timmy]

Right, since Timmy did believe at one time. He sadly fell departed due to circumstances in which he did not find the escape God provided (1 Cor 10:13).

Oh, so that's what happened! :lol