What was the "Latter Rain" Movement ??

[Scott Pitta]

Harry Morse was disfellowshipped from the UPC for endorsing the "Latter Rain" movement, I think.

What was the Latter Rain movement ? Was Harry Morse fellowshipped for endorsing it ?

How do I even find out about this sort of thing ?

Not the sort of thing I like researching. :(

[n david]

Harry Morse was disfellowshipped from the UPC for endorsing the "Latter Rain" movement, I think.

What was the Latter Rain movement ? Was Harry Morse fellowshipped for endorsing it ?

How do I even find out about this sort of thing ?

Not the sort of thing I like researching. :(

Good info at the link.

Source Link (http://www.gotquestions.org/latter-rain-movement.html)

[Sean]

The Latter Rain idea is probably okay in general, but there are glitches in the whole package. Why cant a man separate himself from the movement, yet adhere to some of its' tenets.
Is it always... "all or nothing"?

[Steve Epley]

The "latter rain movement" began in Canada mainly under the influence of the Hawtin brothers. It spread quickly as a new wave of the Spirit it emphasized gifts to an extreme particularly personal prophecy. Gifts were given men were named apostles and prophets. Doctrine became secondary if important at all. Any type of outward standard was rejected. It moved the boundary between Oneness and Trinitarian groups. It was the force that birth the healing crusades in the 40's & 50's such as Roberts, Cole, Branham, etc laid the foundation of the modern Charismatic Movement. The first split in the UPC was caused by it those who left formed the IMA, Kidson, Vanhoose, Moore, Houstra, etc.
Most disfellowshipped by the UPC were disfellowshipped for denying the necessity of baptism,denying tongues as the initial evidence, forsaking all holiness standards.

[KeptByTheWord]

Thanks for the link ND. We have friends who got caught up in the Latter Rain movement back in the 70s, and the manifest sons of God doctrine as well. They still believe to this day that they are going to be "Joel's Army" in Joel 2, and that God is raising up an army today that will be supernatural overcomers, as those spoken of in Joel 2. They also have some other very strange ideas as well.

[KeptByTheWord]

The "latter rain movement" began in Canada mainly under the influence of the Hawtin brothers. It spread quickly as a new wave of the Spirit it emphasized gifts to an extreme particularly personal prophecy. Gifts were given men were named apostles and prophets. Doctrine became secondary if important at all. Any type of outward standard was rejected. It moved the boundary between Oneness and Trinitarian groups. It was the force that birth the healing crusades in the 40's & 50's such as Roberts, Cole, Branham, etc laid the foundation of the modern Charismatic Movement. The first split in the UPC was caused by it those who left formed the IMA, Kidson, Vanhoose, Moore, Houstra, etc.
Most disfellowshipped by the UPC were disfellowshipped for denying the necessity of baptism,denying tongues as the initial evidence, forsaking all holiness standards.

Great history lesson! :)

[KeptByTheWord]

The Latter Rain idea is probably okay in general, but there are glitches in the whole package. Why cant a man separate himself from the movement, yet adhere to some of its' tenets.
Is it always... "all or nothing"?

Which tenets of this would you adhere to?

[Steve Epley]

Thanks for the link ND. We have friends who got caught up in the Latter Rain movement back in the 70s, and the manifest sons of God doctrine as well. They still believe to this day that they are going to be "Joel's Army" in Joel 2, and that God is raising up an army today that will be supernatural overcomers, as those spoken of in Joel 2. They also have some other very strange ideas as well.

Bill Britton became a noted teacher of a certain element published booklets teaching his weird ideas. He bordered divine health, gradual immortality, other far out stuff inspired by Franklin Hall.

[Steve Epley]

You might find that resolution of the UPC and the AG somewhere? The AG were more affected than the UPC they also made an official stance and disfellowshipped men.
The outlandish prophecies, oil dripping, teeth fillings, crosses appearing in the forehead, appearance of blood, were some of the charges.

[KeptByTheWord]

You might find that resolution of the UPC and the AG somewhere? The AG were more affected than the UPC they also made an official stance and disfellowshipped men.
The outlandish prophecies, oil dripping, teeth fillings, crosses appearing in the forehead, appearance of blood, were some of the charges.

We met some folks several years ago, and were shocked to discover that they had been to some of these kind of meetings where gold dust was coming down into the room, and diamonds too. They brought some home just to prove to everyone that it had really happened. We tried to explain to them how easily something like that could have been contrived, but there was no changing their mind. LOL. You see, they had the "evidence" and could not be persuaded otherwise.

Scary stuffy to manipulate people like that.

[mfblume]

It started in Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada, and Franklin Hall headed it up. Total nonsense like the charismania today where people focus on gold-dust and firetunnels and layng over graves to get a dead evangelist's anointing. Hall promoted how people took a bronze colour on their faces when they got in the Spirit, etc. Total and absolute nonsense. It was an outward sensational thing where morality went out the window, and people went to see sensational sights and prophesy over each other all night, violating precepts in the Word in 1 Cor 14.

It's modern-day counterpart is the Toronto Blessing and the Redding California nuttiness.

[mfblume]

The current charismania "prophetic" movement and Latter Rain movement in the fifties are the best examples I have seen of the following words of Jesus being fulfilled:

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Steve Epley]

We met some folks several years ago, and were shocked to discover that they had been to some of these kind of meetings where gold dust was coming down into the room, and diamonds too. They brought some home just to prove to everyone that it had really happened. We tried to explain to them how easily something like that could have been contrived, but there was no changing their mind. LOL. You see, they had the "evidence" and could not be persuaded otherwise.

Scary stuffy to manipulate people like that.

As a boy I was in a meeting where the blood of Jesus appeared on clothing and Bibles a friend has some appear on his clothing. He had it analysied it was chicken blood how they accomplished it we don't know.

[Steve Epley]

It started in Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada, and Franklin Hall headed it up. Total nonsense like the charismania today where people focus on gold-dust and firetunnels and layng over graves to get a dead evangelist's anointing. Hall promoted how people took a bronze colour on their faces when they got in the Spirit, etc. Total and absolute nonsense. It was an outward sensational thing where morality went out the window, and people went to see sensational sights and prophesy over each other all night, violating precepts in the Word in 1 Cor 14.

It's modern-day counterpart is the Toronto Blessing and the Redding California nuttiness.

Franklin Hall was teaching fire baptism where you would never get sick nor die. By the way he is dead.:thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

It started in Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada, and Franklin Hall headed it up. Total nonsense like the charismania today where people focus on gold-dust and firetunnels and layng over graves to get a dead evangelist's anointing. Hall promoted how people took a bronze colour on their faces when they got in the Spirit, etc. Total and absolute nonsense. It was an outward sensational thing where morality went out the window, and people went to see sensational sights and prophesy over each other all night, violating precepts in the Word in 1 Cor 14.

It's modern-day counterpart is the Toronto Blessing and the Redding California nuttiness.

I met one of the Hawtin brothers.

[mfblume]

Franklin Hall was teaching fire baptism where you would never get sick nor die. By the way he is dead.:thumbsup

I knew a brother who was into sensationalism like that and had a booklet by Franklin Hall. In it it mentioned some more "deep teachings" from the Bible. And he got into Revelation's beast with seven heads, and said it was the human TONGUE that has seven taste centres on it!!! lol. He applied what James said when he described the tongue as an evil and no man can tame it. He had a diagram of the tongue showing the seven taste centres, too!

Unbelievable. Hahahaha.

[Steve Epley]

I knew a brother who was into sensationalism like that and had a booklet by Franklin Hall. In it it mentioned some more "deep teachings" from the Bible. And he got into Revelation's beast with seven heads, and said it was the human TONGUE that has seven taste centres on it!!! lol. He applied what James said when he described the tongue as an evil and no man can tame it. He had a diagram of the tongue showing the seven taste centres, too!

Unbelievable. Hahahaha.

I was preaching in Phoenix decades ago the Halls had a broadcast. I personally heard her say she was redeemed from the curse she hadn't sweat in years and the last time she did it smelled like the rose of sharron. I lie not.:highfive:heeheehee

[Steve Epley]

And all those appearances of the pillar of fire you ever see any Neal Frisby's stuff? :heeheehee:heeheehee halos everywhere on everything.:happydance

[Michael The Disciple]

Yea real funny. Or maybe some of them were seeking more of God than they were getting like many movements? If they were praying for a more supernatural move in the last days I see nothing wrong with that.

I knew an old Evangelist named Maynard Howe. He remembered the Latter Rain Movement with fondness having been from some accounts well known in it.

He was known for the teaching and practice of plural Eldership, body ministry, and headcovering for woman partaking in the ministry. He taught Acts 2:38 as the plan of salvation writing some good articles about it.

When I went to meet him at a convention in St. Paul he seemed to have weakened on that point. That same meeting was the one where the famous UPC Preacher Robert Sabin showed up to check out "body ministry".

Maynard started Churches in Minnesota, Michigan, and Ohio that I am aware of. Later in life he visited the Philippines starting a Bible College. He supported many Missionaries around the world.

I was truly blessed to have known him.

[n david]

I was preaching in Phoenix decades ago the Halls had a broadcast. I personally heard her say she was redeemed from the curse she hadn't sweat in years and the last time she did it smelled like the rose of sharron. I lie not.:highfive:heeheehee
:toofunny I live in Phoenix. People sure don't smell like the rose of sharron when they sweat around here!

[Steve Epley]

:toofunny I live in Phoenix. People sure don't smell like the rose of sharron when they sweat around here!

I doubted her.:happydance do you remember them or Frisby who had that Capstone Cathedral?

[Scott Pitta]

I wonder who would remember the Morse case? Rev. Cagle was probably the district sup. Who from that part of California would remember ?

I run into people I need to interview, but their memory has faded so much it is needless to interview them. But not always. I chatted with a former member of the Big Downtown Mission (Morse) last night. Lots of memories !

[n david]

I doubted her.:happydance do you remember them or Frisby who had that Capstone Cathedral?
No, I don't.

[Steve Epley]

I wonder who would remember the Morse case? Rev. Cagle was probably the district sup. Who from that part of California would remember ?

I run into people I need to interview, but their memory has faded so much it is needless to interview them. But not always. I chatted with a former member of the Big Downtown Mission (Morse) last night. Lots of memories !

Paul Price would have been a young man but maybe he remembers?

[Scott Pitta]

I called him. He was not in a condition to be interviewed. Please remember him in your prayers.

[CC1]

As a boy I was in a meeting where the blood of Jesus appeared on clothing and Bibles a friend has some appear on his clothing. He had it analysied it was chicken blood how they accomplished it we don't know.

I would guess maybe in the A/C system but if this happened when you were a boy they probably didn't have air conditioning! :happydance

[Steve Epley]

I would guess maybe in the A/C system but if this happened when you were a boy they probably didn't have air conditioning! :happydance

They had their lights low for prayer we wonder if maybe someone had a squirt gun or something like that?

[Sean]

Which tenets of this would you adhere to?




The Former and Latter outpouring concept...
Joel 2:23..Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

History shows us this Holy Ghost revival happening twice(world wide).


Not sure about much more of their beliefs though.

[Esaias]

Sounds like typical catholic "miracles".

History repeats itself.

[Esaias]

The Former and Latter outpouring concept...
Joel 2:23..Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

History shows us this Holy Ghost revival happening twice(world wide).


Not sure about much more of their beliefs though.

Actually I think the latter rain comes in spring, and the former rain comes in fall?

[Sean]

Yea real funny. Or maybe some of them were seeking more of God than they were getting like many movements? If they were praying for a more supernatural move in the last days I see nothing wrong with that.

I knew an old Evangelist named Maynard Howe. He remembered the Latter Rain Movement with fondness having been from some accounts well known in it.

He was known for the teaching and practice of plural Eldership, body ministry, and headcovering for woman partaking in the ministry. He taught Acts 2:38 as the plan of salvation writing some good articles about it.

When I went to meet him at a convention in St. Paul he seemed to have weakened on that point. That same meeting was the one where the famous UPC Preacher Robert Sabin showed up to check out "body ministry".

Maynard started Churches in Minnesota, Michigan, and Ohio that I am aware of. Later in life he visited the Philippines starting a Bible College. He supported many Missionaries around the world.

I was truly blessed to have known him.






Michael, agreed, I think we need to NOT call these folks "kooks".

My conservative pastor uncle called everyone he didnt agree with a KOOK. Yet he would not allow bows in hair etc.
Folks had to call him when going to the mall!!!

I just let the Holy Ghost work on folks. The supernatural sometimes gets infiltrated with some flesh and the insecure religious rulers throw it all out.

I try to give the experience some folks claim to have the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I am naive, but it is the Holy Ghost and man that will benefit here by folks with childlike faith.

I just dont want to act like I am the Master of the things of God.(because some of these so-called weird things are of God)


We need to take this guys' advice...

Acts 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

[CC1]

They had their lights low for prayer we wonder if maybe someone had a squirt gun or something like that?

Today with everybody and their brother taking cellphone videos of everything they probably would have a harder time getting away with it.

How people ever get so focused on things that are nowhere in the Bible is a mystery to me. I guess it is human nature to love the supernatural and people are always looking for "signs".

[Esaias]

http://latter-rain.com/eschae/latter.htm

[Sean]

Actually I think the latter rain comes in spring, and the former rain comes in fall?



Bro., Joel 2:23 is commonly quoted by many of our Spirit filled brethren as a "dual" prophetical Spirit outpouring.

We saw it in early church history, then came the Dark Ages, then the mass outpouring re-occurred in our last 2 centuries.

I dont think it is a coincidence.

[Esaias]

Bro., Joel 2:23 is commonly quoted by many of our Spirit filled brethren as a "dual" prophetical Spirit outpouring.

We saw it in early church history, then came the Dark Ages, then the mass outpouring re-occurred in our last 2 centuries.

I dont think it is a coincidence.

No, I was just pointing out that historically the former rain comes in the fall and the latter rain comes in the spring. Hey, read that link I posted, it's very interesting.

[Sean]

No, I was just pointing out that historically the former rain comes in the fall and the latter rain comes in the spring. Hey, read that link I posted, it's very interesting.



Thank you, I will!!!


It is an interesting post indeed, the emphasis is not to judge the movement of the Holy Ghost on mankind today by looking at fringe concepts of certain folks. He says there is no denomination for the Latter Rain movement, but some folks have banded together with certain doctrines.
It cannot be lumped together as a movement therefore, but an individual experience from a variety of Christian faiths of Spirit filled believers.(mostly Pentecostal in experience)

[mfblume]

Yea real funny. Or maybe some of them were seeking more of God than they were getting like many movements? If they were praying for a more supernatural move in the last days I see nothing wrong with that.

There is indeed more to gain from the supernatural moves of God that some churches experience. But that is no excuse for focusing on experience more than Word of God, as the charismania and latter rain movements did. I know people who got into that sort of thing who simply do not want Word. They follow signs when signs should follow us. So a healthy hunger for the supernatural could become an obsession where one shirks off Word. The flesh loves to see and hear all these things, too. But one needs a good balance of Spirit and Truth.

[Jito463]

The initial link to explain it seemed rather innocuous, but the rest of what you all posted does make it seem rather insidious. For me, though, all I can think about when I hear the term is the old song, 'I Feel The Rain'.


I feel the rain, I feel the rain
I feel it falling down on me
I feel the rain, I feel the rain
I feel it falling down on me
The former and the latter rain together
And I'm not talking 'bout the weather
It's the Holy Ghost rain and it's falling down on me

[Timmy]

I knew a brother who was into sensationalism like that and had a booklet by Franklin Hall. In it it mentioned some more "deep teachings" from the Bible. And he got into Revelation's beast with seven heads, and said it was the human TONGUE that has seven taste centres on it!!! lol. He applied what James said when he described the tongue as an evil and no man can tame it. He had a diagram of the tongue showing the seven taste centres, too!

Unbelievable. Hahahaha.

Is it OK to laugh at others' beliefs? :winkgrin

[Scott Pitta]

I am still confused why Harry Morse was disfellowshipped over it. But I am looking into it from a different perspective. Those Azuza veterans were rather open minded about the move of the Spirit.

[Scott Pitta]

I read some old Pentecostal Heralds today.

Harry Morse gave regularly to foreign missions and had a few articles in the Herald until the Feb. 1952 issue. In it is the official statement concerning the Latter Rain movement. No more mention of Morse in the Herald after that.

But there is a report (1/1951) of David Gray moving to Oakland to start a new church to "repair the altar of the Lord which was broken down." The Oct. 1951 Herald reports John Klemin taking over for Gray who returned to San Diego.

Why all the reporting over one church in their national magazine ? Is this an indication of the importance of Morse leaving the UPC ? It is difficult for me to determine.

I'm just trying to tie up a storyline on the book.

[Reader]

Scott, it sounds as if you need to be a detective in pulling together your book!

[shazeep]

ya, the untold story usually gets obscured, and you end up with just the two sides.

[Scott Pitta]

But I want 3 or 4 or 5 sides. Who would still remember those days ? How do I accurately measure the impact on those involved ?

[shazeep]

well, you want to look in closets, essentially. Find someone who was there?

[Scott Pitta]

In the course of his lifetime, Morse was in several organizations. I do know that Andrew Urshan no longer preached for Morse when he came to town. He preached at the UPC church in town. Prior to 1950, Urshan, like Ewart, preached for Morse.

I am not looking for mud to sling.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Franklin Hall was teaching fire baptism where you would never get sick nor die. By the way he is dead.:thumbsup

:lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

I knew a brother who was into sensationalism like that and had a booklet by Franklin Hall. In it it mentioned some more "deep teachings" from the Bible. And he got into Revelation's beast with seven heads, and said it was the human TONGUE that has seven taste centres on it!!! lol. He applied what James said when he described the tongue as an evil and no man can tame it. He had a diagram of the tongue showing the seven taste centres, too!

Unbelievable. Hahahaha.

FASTING: ATOMIC POWER WITH GOD! :heeheehee

[shazeep]

In the course of his lifetime, Morse was in several organizations. I do know that Andrew Urshan no longer preached for Morse when he came to town. He preached at the UPC church in town. Prior to 1950, Urshan, like Ewart, preached for Morse.

I am not looking for mud to sling.i understand that, but it is obvious from a cursory exam that there was a division--at a guess i would say to amending Acts 2:38, but i'm not sure--and you are now curious about what caused a divide, which is hard to clarify after the fact, unless someone journalled it or reported it, which is likely.

[mfblume]

FASTING: ATOMIC POWER WITH GOD! :heeheehee

Atomic power, lol.

[Garbonzo]

The Oct. 1951 Herald reports John Klemin taking over for Gray who returned to San Diego..

John Klemin's Daughters are Marla Van Beek and Maria Johnson.

I know Sis Maria Johnson's husband Steve Pastors in Bend Oregon. I am unsure where the Van Beek's are currently but I believe they are in the Portland area. Both are on Facebook and may have information regarding this time period or links to someone who does.