I'm done, over it.

[Originalist]

This Saturday my wife and I will be meeting with our pastor to most likely tell him we will not be returning to church. I would be more than happy to maintain the status of an church attendee, but once he hears what I have to say he probably will not feel comfortable having me around.

We have nothing against this church or pastor at all. As far as Apostolics go he is one ofthe most down to earth guys I know. He started the church 10 years ago but the church has never grown past 30. The are probably varying reasons for this that I will not get into now.

My personal life and dramatic philisophical shift over the past few years compell me to step aside. I simply no longer feel comfortable in the traditional church setting and feel that the only way I can be an agent for change is to come out from it. But beyond that, I feel I must take a season to focus primarily on my family. Somehow a sense of normalcy must be restored to my home. We have been in literal subsitence for almost 4 years now and I cannnot accept that this is our lot from now on, nor can i accept the status quo thinking that says, "Just be faithful to chuch! Don't miss a servive for a night job, college or any other reason! Just plop, pray , pray and shout and all will work out".

My heart is broken. I have struggled with allot of guilt for what has befallen us. I feel like I'm getting physically and mentally ill. I feel like i am straddling that fine line between depending on God and depending on people. There is absolutely no logical reason for a still very youthful, entergetic 49 year old man with a family to be depending on anybody. I have sought sound counsel from previous pastors within this movement and all I get is the same narrow-minded set of rules that I'm not to vilolate (as listed above). No compassion. No direction. No Paul to Timothy type advice.

I'm not backsliding or turning from the Lord. On the contrary, to accomodate God I feel I must take these actions. Please pray for God's peace to sustain me.

[KeptByTheWord]

You are in our prayers O! God knows exactly where you are, and even though it does not seem there is a plan in focus that you can see, does not mean there is not one. Will uphold you in prayer that the Lord bring peace as you walk through this valley in your life.

[Rudy]

If I may ask, is your wife on-board with this?

Originalist there are many-many people who are in your situation. I have no idea why the church system is so impotent to the needs of those in need.

Just keep coming and tithe your money to repel the devourer. One brother told me if he did not tithe he feared his children would get sick. This is allowed to be taught and it's disgusting. We look like idiots and we wonder why assemblies don't grow.

You probably are mentally fatigued, who wouldn't be.

Sorry for the tithing rant.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Don't stop gathering together. Don't isolate yourself from a local body of believers.

If you have to miss church because of work that's one thing.

But your whole family?

Seems like that is an idea straight from satan himself.

Unless the Pastor boots you out the church, don't stop attending.

If you have negativity, don't spread the negativity but do come to chruch, do gather with your local body of believers.

[Michael The Disciple]

Cant blame you Bro I did it many years ago myself. I wish I could guide you to a real New Testament Church. I only know a few I would recommend both a long way from where I am.

[Aquila]

How is not returning to church in general going to help your situation?

If you have to miss church for work, that's one thing, but to pull yourself and your family out of church because you can't make ends meet seems like flawed logic.

Jermyn, it sounds like Originalist's choice isn't based solely on any financial struggle. He also mentioned his, "personal life and dramatic philisophical shift over the past few years". One must serve and worship God in accordance to their own conscience, or they are in a position of imposed coercion. Be it tithing (as one brother mentioned in a previous post), totalitarian power in the pulpit, legalism, or a lack of systematic theology... one has to follow the convictions that the Spirit has led them to as a result of their prayers and study or they are not being truly authentic.

I left the institutional church system several years ago and launched out into the house church movement. I've since grown in my spiritual understanding and giftings. I've freely communicated dreams, visions, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, interpretations of tongues, etc.. Things I'd rarely if ever be allowed to do in the institutional churches I attended. Group discussion and study as a body has truly helped me to grow in knowledge and to understand other perspectives as it relates to Scripture. I wish I had left the institutional church system sooner. It may have saved my family. But that's an entirely different story. If Originalist is being led of God, his walk with God will deepen and a truly "personal" relationship with God will develop. This may very well be an important lesson and/or experience he must have in His walk with God.

As to his wife's relationship to these developments... I feel in my spirit that the toll the institutional church is taking on her is a primary reason why he feels the need to act. Most men are capable of enduring the ups, downs, and politics of the institutional church as long as their family is healthy, happy, and stable. It's when a man looks around and realizes that his wife and children are in tatters as a result of the system's failures that he feels the deep drive to father, protect, and act.

I feel in my spirit that something (or a series of somethings) has happened to cause his wife to eco the very same spiritual conviction the Spirit has spoken to his own heart or... she's finally starting to show indications of the spiritual damage that she's received at the hands of the system.

[Esphes45]

This Saturday my wife and I will be meeting with our pastor to most likely tell him we will not be returning to church. I would be more than happy to maintain the status of an church attendee, but once he hears what I have to say he probably will not feel comfortable having me around.

We have nothing against this church or pastor at all. As far as Apostolics go he is one ofthe most down to earth guys I know. He started the church 10 years ago but the church has never grown past 30. The are probably varying reasons for this that I will not get into now.

My personal life and dramatic philisophical shift over the past few years compell me to step aside. I simply no longer feel comfortable in the traditional church setting and feel that the only way I can be an agent for change is to come out from it. But beyond that, I feel I must take a season to focus primarily on my family. Somehow a sense of normalcy must be restored to my home. We have been in literal subsitence for almost 4 years now and I cannnot accept that this is our lot from now on, nor can i accept the status quo thinking that says, "Just be faithful to chuch! Don't miss a servive for a night job, college or any other reason! Just plop, pray , pray and shout and all will work out".

My heart is broken. I have struggled with allot of guilt for what has befallen us. I feel like I'm getting physically and mentally ill. I feel like i am straddling that fine line between depending on God and depending on people. There is absolutely no logical reason for a still very youthful, entergetic 49 year old man with a family to be depending on anybody. I have sought sound counsel from previous pastors within this movement and all I get is the same narrow-minded set of rules that I'm not to vilolate (as listed above). No compassion. No direction. No Paul to Timothy type advice.

I'm not backsliding or turning from the Lord. On the contrary, to accomodate God I feel I must take these actions. Please pray for God's peace to sustain me.


I could have wrote this exact post 4 months ago. Wow. My prayers are with you I know the exact feeling.

[Esphes45]

Most men are capable of enduring the ups, downs, and politics of the institutional church as long as their family is healthy, happy, and stable. It's when a man looks around and realizes that his wife and children are in tatters as a result of the system that he feels the deep drive to father, protect, and act.


So true in many ways. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

[Esphes45]

Can I ask one thing? Why do people feel the need to meet with their pastor before they stop coming? I could never understand that. You know they are going to try to convince you to continue to prop, pray and pay. So what's the point?


What would surprise me is if he says "Well, I will be praying for you and if you need someone to talk with I'm available" and leave it at that.

Someone told me once the best thing to do sometime is move ourselves out of the way and let God work.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't understand how you guys can encourage a sheep to the leave the fellowship of other sheep.

[Michael The Disciple]

If money is the issue the Church should pay the bills of a true and faithful member. By true and faithful I mean to God and his word.

[obriencp]

Prayers for you and your family Originalist. You're not alone, in fact, I've been reading a lot lately where people are getting burnt out on "church." They want real revival and are seeking to be more in tune with what the new testament church was originally. Not just a praise service, some socializing, leave your money at the door, and going home, but a home-based community focused movement that takes the gospel outside of four walls and actually impacts peoples' lives.

By the way I'd love to chat with you about something off-line... i'll PM you.

[Aquila]

Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't understand how you guys can encourage a sheep to the leave the fellowship of other sheep.

Who said that he should leave fellowship with other believers? When I left, I sought out the house church movement for fellowship. I do believe the Originalist should seek out some form of fellowship. But the Spirit has to lead him to that fellowship.

[Jermyn Davidson]

If money is the issue the Church should pay the bills of a true and faithful member. By true and faithful I mean to God and his word.

For how long?
What if the church can't afford to do that?

I've had to get help from the church before and I encourage people to do that but for ongoing problems and /or issues, the church is not our personal piggy bank.

[Michael The Disciple]

For how long?
What if the church can't afford to do that?

I've had to get help from the church before and I encourage people to do that but for ongoing problems and /or issues, the church is not our personal piggy bank.

Well that just depends. What is greater than love? Paul went all over the place raising money for the poor saints. Preachers were supposed to work with their own hands so they could give to the needy. Everything is far removed in modern Churches from New Testament Churches.

If someone is merely there to mooch off the saints give once and then tell them thats it. If someone is faithful to Jesus Christ living without sin and in reality trying to make their own way I stand with helping them.

Certainly not if they are deliberately living beyond their means. I did this for people consistently as a Pastor in the home Church movement. Matter of fact whenever there was an offering that was the first thing I looked at. Are the saints needs met? If not it would go back to them.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Well that just depends. What is greater than love? Paul went all over the place raising money for the poor saints. Preachers were supposed to work with their own hands so they could give to the needy. Everything is far removed in modern Churches from New Testament Churches.

If someone is merely there to mooch off the saints give once and then tell them thats it. If someone is faithful to Jesus Christ living without sin and in reality trying to make their own way I stand with helping them.

Certainly not if they are deliberately living beyond their means. I did this for people consistently as a Pastor in the home Church movement. Matter of fact whenever there was an offering that was the first thing I looked at. Are the saints needs met? If not it would go back to them.

You are right.

I am still very concerned for this brother who is in such a precarious place that it seems his judgment may be in trouble.

This should concern us all.

Maybe his judgment is not in trouble. Maybe he is about to walk right into God's Will, but it sure doesn't seem like it-- talking about leaving church and what not.

[Aquila]

For how long?
What if the church can't afford to do that?

Most house churches can.

I've had to get help from the church before and I encourage people to do that but for ongoing problems and /or issues, the church is not our personal piggy bank.

The church is a family.

[Rudy]

Prayers for you and your family Originalist. You're not alone, in fact, I've been reading a lot lately where people are getting burnt out on "church." They want real revival and are seeking to be more in tune with what the new testament church was originally. Not just a praise service, some socializing, leave your money at the door, and going home, but a home-based community focused movement that takes the gospel outside of four walls and actually impacts peoples' lives.

By the way I'd love to chat with you about something off-line... i'll PM you.

There is a starving body indeed. Estimates as high as 20.000.000 have left the I.C. There are assemblies that seek and want a non-stop revival. I would love to find a 24/7 open door where prayer and the miraculous saturates.

Help us Lord God almighty!

[n david]

Maybe his judgment is not in trouble. Maybe he is about to walk right into God's Will, but it sure doesn't seem like it-- talking about leaving church and what not.
Many leave church to either go somewhere else or have church at home. Shouldn't question his judgment over this, much less at all.

Many times we are placed somewhere but for a season. We belong to God, not a church or a Pastor.

Actually, I've decided, after a wrestling with it for a long time, to leave my church as well.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originalist, please know if that if I have ever prayed for anyone on AFF, I will pray for you.

As much as it is possible, I love you brother.

So much is riding on your decisions.

Please be careful and prayerful.

[Originalist]

Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't understand how you guys can encourage a sheep to the leave the fellowship of other sheep.

Worry not my brother. Alienating myself from fellowship is the last thing on my mind. I appreciate your concern.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Worry not my brother. Alienating myself from fellowship is the last thing on my mind. I appreciate your concern.

:highfive

[Originalist]

One of the biggest things that leaves me scratching my head is why these guys seem to get bent out of shape and snub you if you have to temporarily work two jobs to support your family even if it means missing some church or not being as available as before. i know people in the world who are not money hungry but work two and three jobs just to survive or to help support a sick or aging loved one. My hat is off to them.

As you may remember I experienced this in my last church which I left a little over a year ago. For 5 months I worked two part time jobs. It worked out to about 45 hours combined and 7 days a week. In that 5 month period I literally had TWO days off! In those 5 moths the only time my wife left the house was on Sunday morning to go to church (we have one car). Nobody offered to come pick up. Nothing. My pastor at that time never put the word out to the members to see if there were any positions open where they worked. I went from being the pastor's fill-in preacher to not preaching at all for the entire last 16 months we were there. The only comment he made was, "I know I don't need to remind you about the importance of church attendance".

Ironically the pastor I have now was once the assistant pastor under the pastor mentioned above. He and his wife both worked full time and were at the church every night doing something. Relatives were ALWAYS watching their kids so they could be "free to minister" (Another one of my per peeves. my wife and I do not have that kind of family support and really do not believe in dumping our kids off anyway.)

Then the pastor's son graduated from bible college and my (current) pastor was kicked to the curb. I mean dropped like a hot potato. So he is a little more compassionate than many for what he went through himself. But he also has that stoic side about "never missing church to work".

[Rudy]

Start a work. Preach to the members of your family. You build it they will come.

[Esaias]

Originalist, at first I found myself focused on all that was wrong with the institutional church. Over time, as we focused more on assembling together and on God, the IC no longer held much of my interest. I lost my obsession with "I can't believe they do this or that". Now, I let them do their thing and I let God do his thing.

Meet with your family. That is the oldest form of worship known to man, going back to before the Fall even.

Once your household is in order, then start thinking about "what next". A man cannot be an elder (biblically) unless he rules his own house well. This includes making sure his family is balanced and not teetering on the precipice of whateveritmaybe.

I believe God is preparing you for a work to do. No idea what it will be, but all this is just on the job training for your future.

Forgetting what is behind, and pressing forward...

[Praxeas]

"Just be faithful to chuch! Don't miss a servive for a night job, college or any other reason! Just plop, pray , pray and shout and all will work out".


Sounds like a very conservative church. While I believe we should not make a bad habit of missing services, sometimes we can't make every service, especially the mid week night service.

That is one reason why I don't like those kinds of churches

[CC1]

Original,

I will be praying for you. In addition to praying for you I am praying you don't listen to those who can never find anyplace that agrees 100% with them so they just start their own little house church in lieu of learning how to deal with not having everything 100% their way.

Clearly you are not comfortable in the church paradigm you are currently in but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I am sure there is a place where you can both find a good church to be involved in and also obtain employment to support your family.

[Esaias]

Original,

I will be praying for you. In addition to praying for you I am praying you don't listen to those who can never find anyplace that agrees 100% with them so they just start their own little house church in lieu of learning how to deal with not having everything 100% their way.

Clearly you are not comfortable in the church paradigm you are currently in but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I am sure there is a place where you can both find a good church to be involved in and also obtain employment to support your family.

This attitude, that those who leave the institutional church are just petty and selfish, is one of THE biggest reasons people leave to begin with. It's called snobbery, the "we are better cause we have a nice building, great choir, and most awesomest preacher imaginable" attitude.

What's funny is people leave one church and flop into another and "all is well" because at least they are still part of the system. ANYTHING goes as long as the SYSTEM is perpetuated.

Meanwhile people leave that SYSTEM and love God and even do more for God and their fellow man than they EVER did as a tithing pew warmer, and the number is growing. And the pew warmers whistle past the graveyard and don't even know it. Talk about irony.

Anyway, it's obvious all those who attend institutional church will say "stay, don't leave, even it kills your walk with God and your family life." And those who have moved on with God will say "step into the water and trust God."

Thankfully the pyres aren't burning anymore, least not in America.

[CC1]

This attitude, that those who leave the institutional church are just petty and selfish, is one of THE biggest reasons people leave to begin with. It's called snobbery, the "we are better cause we have a nice building, great choir, and most awesomest preacher imaginable" attitude.



It has nothing to do with "snobbery" or being better because we have a nice building (my church meets in a 114 year old converted warehouse).

It has everything to do with my over 50 years of anecdotal observation about the majority of people involved in house churches. Almost 100% are people with fringe views who are so stringent in their set of peculiar beliefs that they never find a church to become a part of and choose to essentially pastor themselves because that is the one pastor they will agree with.

I am sure there are exceptions but I personally have not met any.

[BrotherEastman]

O, I will not judge you; however, I will pray for God's direction for your life. please do the same for me as I also seem to be in the same situation that you are in. Also, my wife is very stoic about her faith and going to church, she is not ready for a new shift in her life right now so please keep me in your prayers as well. God bless you my friend!!!!!

[shazeep]

This attitude, that those who leave the institutional church are just petty and selfish, is one of THE biggest reasons people leave to begin with. It's called snobbery, the "we are better cause we have a nice building, great choir, and most awesomest preacher imaginable" attitude.

What's funny is people leave one church and flop into another and "all is well" because at least they are still part of the system. ANYTHING goes as long as the SYSTEM is perpetuated.

Meanwhile people leave that SYSTEM and love God and even do more for God and their fellow man than they EVER did as a tithing pew warmer, and the number is growing. And the pew warmers whistle past the graveyard and don't even know it. Talk about irony.

Anyway, it's obvious all those who attend institutional church will say "stay, don't leave, even it kills your walk with God and your family life." And those who have moved on with God will say "step into the water and trust God."

Thankfully the pyres aren't burning anymore, least not in America.yes, i am seeing this also; the most forthright way to put it is the Holy Spirit is moving out of our churches; hopefully into our hearts. It could be argued that we are not even the client nation anymore, with China @ 200 million strong believers...

Orig, you're in my prayers. I liked the "just leave" idea--why burn a bridge, you might miss it after a couple weeks etc.

[ILG]

Praying for you, Originalist.

[Sean]

Well bro. the last time I had a pastor(2012) and said my good byes' is when I told him he will end up in hell for teaching tithing.
He said I will be there for not tithing.
I went out with a bang!

At least you went out peacefully...LOL

[Sean]

Believe it or not, you guys have kept me in fellowship with believers almost daily!!!

[Sean]

Im even blessed arguing!!!

[Sean]

You got me bro., we can argue til Jesus comes!!!

Now thats all the fellowship you need!!!...LOL

[J.A. Perez]

It has nothing to do with "snobbery" or being better because we have a nice building (my church meets in a 114 year old converted warehouse).

It has everything to do with my over 50 years of anecdotal observation about the majority of people involved in house churches. Almost 100% are people with fringe views who are so stringent in their set of peculiar beliefs that they never find a church to become a part of and choose to essentially pastor themselves because that is the one pastor they will agree with.

I am sure there are exceptions but I personally have not met any.

If I might add my two cents..
This is a very true statement indeed. The spirit of rebellion drips from their very words. Preacher haters are everywhere.
Once a year, our church meets together for our time of prayer and consecration we meet every night, 1week for an hour and pray. Tonight we also had foot-washing, I wept as my pastor washed my feet and I his, Thanking God for such a wonderful gift.
The answer for some is to leave the church, sometimes its the only way for them to realize what they've lost. Other times God has to move them out of the way in order to have revival. Although there are others that need to leave because of the worldly direction of the leadership. In the case of this thread I do believe Originalist has been in a financial trial and the Devil is doing his best at helping him find fault. Thus kicking a good man while he is down. I will be praying for you and your family.
Truly,
J.A. Perez

[J.A. Perez]

O, I will not judge you; however, I will pray for God's direction for your life. please do the same for me as I also seem to be in the same situation that you are in. Also, my wife is very stoic about her faith and going to church, she is not ready for a new shift in her life right now so please keep me in your prayers as well. God bless you my friend!!!!!

Please consider my words,
Hang in there bro. Your family is depending on you. The devil is a liar! Home churches are his insane asylums. I know several that have gone that way and the end is such a bitterness about everything that is God. All the while they profess to have 'great freedom and works of the spirit' in jesus. They say "awe man, I didn't know what I was missing" "I cant believe your pastor makes you do that?? "where is that in the Bible?" Goofy, but its just like Sean said 'I've got fellowship here' and I say, look at what this kind of fellowship produces. Preacher hating spirit of rebellion and un-submission.

Please excuse my rant, I do believe what I am typing is fact, but I am not singling any one person out and am nobody's judge.
I will be praying for you and your family.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

[Originalist]

You got me bro., we can argue til Jesus comes!!!

Now thats all the fellowship you need!!!...LOL

Brothers of the flesh do indeed argue under their parents' roof and remain brothers. why should it be different in the Father's house? :thumbsup

[Originalist]

Please consider my words,
Hang in there bro. Your family is depending on you. The devil is a liar! Home churches are his insane asylums. I know several that have gone that way and the end is such a bitterness about everything that is God. All the while they profess to have 'great freedom and works of the spirit' in jesus. They say "awe man, I didn't know what I was missing" "I cant believe your pastor makes you do that?? "where is that in the Bible?" Goofy, but its just like Sean said 'I've got fellowship here' and I say, look at what this kind of fellowship produces. Preacher hating spirit of rebellion and un-submission.

Please excuse my rant, I do believe what I am typing is fact, but I am not singling any one person out and am nobody's judge.
I will be praying for you and your family.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

I believe you are grossly mischaracterizing things brother.

Preacher hating spirit of rebellion and un-submission. Leaving a man's church because you have had a philosophical shift that is incompatible with his, is the highest expression of submission to that man's authority as pastor of that church.

[Sean]

Brothers of the flesh do indeed argue under their parents' roof and remain brothers. why should it be different in the Father's house? :thumbsup



Amen bro., just dont argue with the sisters!!!:girlytantrum

[Sean]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez View Post
Please consider my words,
Hang in there bro. Your family is depending on you. The devil is a liar! Home churches are his insane asylums. I know several that have gone that way and the end is such a bitterness about everything that is God. All the while they profess to have 'great freedom and works of the spirit' in jesus. They say "awe man, I didn't know what I was missing" "I cant believe your pastor makes you do that?? "where is that in the Bible?" Goofy, but its just like Sean said 'I've got fellowship here' and I say, look at what this kind of fellowship produces. Preacher hating spirit of rebellion and un-submission.

Please excuse my rant, I do believe what I am typing is fact, but I am not singling any one person out and am nobody's judge.
I will be praying for you and your family.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez



Hey whoah brother Perez, I must inform you that every pastor in my area teaches a lot of false doctrine. I listened to their junk for over 30 years and the HOLY GHOST ran me out of their churches to straighten out my head and get those false doctrines out of it. They demand you submit BLINDLY to zany concepts that are scripturally unfounded.

If you dont care or if false doctrines dont phase you, have at it.

I wanted to say much more, but I dont want to discourage you in the faith.

Some folks cant handle their "manna-God" being exposed!

[Esphes45]

I heard a Jewish man once say.

Jewish man - "I never read a teaching a Jesus I did not agree with. I am just against organized religion."

[Esphes45]

Please consider my words,
Hang in there bro. Your family is depending on you. The devil is a liar! Home churches are his insane asylums. I know several that have gone that way and the end is such a bitterness about everything that is God. All the while they profess to have 'great freedom and works of the spirit' in jesus. They say "awe man, I didn't know what I was missing" "I cant believe your pastor makes you do that?? "where is that in the Bible?" Goofy, but its just like Sean said 'I've got fellowship here' and I say, look at what this kind of fellowship produces. Preacher hating spirit of rebellion and un-submission.

Please excuse my rant, I do believe what I am typing is fact, but I am not singling any one person out and am nobody's judge.
I will be praying for you and your family.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

You have to ask yourself - Why would a preacher be against home churches? I have my thoughts.

You would think the preacher would try to fellowship with them in the home. Let your light shine?

Let me stop before I go on a rant.

[Jito463]

Well bro. the last time I had a pastor(2012) and said my good byes' is when I told him he will end up in hell for teaching tithing.
He said I will be there for not tithing.
I went out with a bang!

At least you went out peacefully...LOL

Even if you disagree about tithes, telling a pastor he's going to hell for teaching it sounds like a spirit of rebellion to me. Thank God you are not the judge.

[Sean]

Even if you disagree about tithes, telling a pastor he's going to hell for teaching it sounds like a spirit of rebellion to me. Thank God you are not the judge.




Well, they tell us we are going to hell for not paying this salvation tax!!!

Takes one to know one!!!

If you think you can buy salvation, go ahead and pay for it.
Give em 20% to be sure your saved!!!

[Aquila]

People need spiritual revival (renewal).

We don't see revival because we want it to saturate our churches.

Please realize... that implies that our homes remain our private domains. What if revival started in... our homes? What if grace over meals, family prayer, family Bible studies, and family altar became the norm among Spirit filled believers? What if fathers began to prophesy over their families? What if neighbors knew our homes as... "houses of prayer"? And what if this devotion was then taken and demonstrated in traditional church settings?

We seem to be in a Westernized "market mindset". We go to Wal-Mart to buy what we need. We go to the gas station to get gas. We then go to school to learn. We go to... in order to get. And... we assume that we have to "go to" church to receive revival. But that isn't the case. Most early revivals started in barns, fields, farm houses, brush arbors, and private homes like that found on Bonnie Brae St. If you look closely... the traditional "churches" with all their buildings and traditions opposed these revivals. This opposition often ignited controversy and caused the news of the revival to spread. But... groups gathering in these revivals soon took up the form and fashion of what they saw around them and had experienced in their denominational churches. They established human organizations. They bought buildings. Then came pews, platforms, pulpits, salaried pastors, carpet, air conditioning, padded pews, light systems, sound systems, overhead projectors, buses for bus ministries, salaried music teams, choirs, praise teams, multimedia productions, websites. Also seminaries and Bible colleges. Oh, and who can forget, the never ending march of...the building programs? Now they had to go back and build everything all over again... only bigger. Then... mega-church campuses. Elaborate designs like that at Crystal Cathedral or those churches with large elaborate clocks in the Steeple overlooking town.

And now we pray that God bless our... system. Bring revival to... our system. But these systems are slowly becoming loosing their relevance. In fact... more people are leaving our "churches" than are coming into them. Even pastors are leaving ministry at an alarming rate. Burnout is epidemic.

What if revival can still be found where it was before? What if we should return to, or at least revisit having smaller more intimate groups seeking God in barns, fields, farm houses, brush arbors, and homes like that on Bonnie Brae St.?

Check out these pics... revival flames ignited in these places... and simple, common, and private places like them...

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/images/9904_images/029_bonnie_brae_house.jpg

http://devincthomas.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/tent-meeting-4.jpg

[Aquila]

My kind of church...

[KeptByTheWord]

Many leave church to either go somewhere else or have church at home. Shouldn't question his judgment over this, much less at all.

Many times we are placed somewhere but for a season. We belong to God, not a church or a Pastor.

Actually, I've decided, after a wrestling with it for a long time, to leave my church as well.

I'll be praying for you too nD.

[Aquila]

We don't do brush arbors... but house churches like to simplify things. Not every church has a need for walls...

[Aquila]

Here is me and two elders serving in a private pool at a baptism service our house church held... welcome to the New Testament church.

I'm the dude with the beard. lol

[Aquila]

A news report on the house church movement from 2010. We've only grown since then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubArgoMo-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-UzsAEbrc

[Aquila]

Maybe you don't understand house churches. Well, we're also called, "simple churches". Here's a video about the core and foundational beliefs of "simple church"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_SIiPl4

[Aquila]

My point is... just because someone leaves the institutional church system... it doesn't mean that they cease fellowship or that they dry up spiritually. In fact, their spiritual life often becomes far more personal and dynamic.

[Aquila]

There's a neat story that goes along with the baptism picture I posted above. Christina, the one who took the picture, was standing in front of the crowd gathered at the front of the pool. There were about 22 people in attendance. A few Wright State University students and several families. The elder got into the water and began to deliver his message. The message was roughly 30 minutes long. The neighbor family heard the noise and saw all the cars parked out front. They came over to see what was going on, they thought it was a birthday party. When the elder saw them, he welcomed and introduced them to the group. He then said, "It is a birthday party! People are being born again!" After some cheerful laughter, he continued with the message and answered questions from the group. Nine people were baptized... including the neighbor family!

[Esaias]

Wow. Now house churches are the devil's insane asylums?

So glad I left the 501(c)3 "church" you guys are something else.

[Aquila]

Wow. Now house churches are the devil's insane asylums?

So glad I left the 501(c)3 "church" you guys are something else.

Eh, they are kind of amusing. Those gathering in barns, brush arbors, on farms, in homes, and in fields and parks back in the beginning of the Pentecostal revivals were judged and condemned as being crazy by the institutional pew warmers too.

How can a movement born in barns, farm houses, modest homes, brush arbors, and open fields turn and condemn those who wish to return to such simplicity and spiritual freedom?

They've become so full of pride and comfort as a result of their buildings and institutionalized systems that they've forgotten from whence they came.

Here's a video that explains it all very well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-147JgJ3ZJs

[Aquila]

People often ask me about the church I attend. Well... my church was built, and is pastored by, my Dad. I think you'd love it.

My church has an innumerable number of living steeples; some of the tallest stretching higher than 315 ft.! Our baptistery holds 326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons (326 million trillion gallons) of water and covers nearly 139,397,000 square miles. The light system constantly puts out an estimated 386 billion-billion megawatts, which are produced by a continual series of nuclear fusion reactions. The campus covers an estimated 57,491,000 square miles, and you can find nearly any program or activity you and you're family could possibly enjoy. We also have an innumerable number of altars with platforms... they are enormous. We have one that is a whopping 29,035 feet (8850 meters) above sea level. And last Sunday... we had over 6 billion people in attendance. We're expecting a few hundred thousand more next Sunday.

With all that being said, I must tell you that you won't find my church down the road or even on a map. To find it... it has to be revealed to you. And here's the best part... it's not too far away. In fact... Jesus tells us just where we can find this church...

Luke 17:20-21(NKJV)
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

So, if you're inclined to visit, pour a hot cup of coffee (or your favorite refreshment), open a Bible, read a little bit, and open your heart. You just might find it.

[obriencp]

Aquila, your recent posts on revival, home churches, and placing faith in our "systems" are great.

[shazeep]

amen

[Aquila]

Anyone ever realize that John the Baptist's father, Zachariah, was a priest in the temple? A member of the clan of Abijah (a descendant of Aaron), Zechariah went to the temple to carry out his priestly duties according to the lot. This is where he saw the angel Gabriel. At the time of Jesus Christ, there were about 7,000 priests in Israel, divided into 24 clans. Each clan served at the temple twice a year, for a week each time.

So, John was of priestly lineage. Shouldn't John have followed the manner of his father and served in the temple as a priest descended from Aaron? Yes. However, John chose the wilderness. He preached under the brush of the forest trees, stood on stumps, taught on mountain sides, and baptized in natural rivers and lakes. John clearly forsook the temple system to follow a greater prophetic calling. John forsook the temple, the organized and professional priesthood, all the traditional garb... and... embraced the wilderness.

I've heard preachers say that we need a generation of John the Baptists. Well, one is rising... can they handle it?

[good samaritan]

I am late getting into this thread so I have just skimmed through it. I am supportive of any church that belongs to God and is obedient to his words. My thoughts are that we should not allow divisions among one another because of the size of the building we worship. Most every church of any size started as a home group until they needed more accommodations for the congregation as it grew. I know people who have had horror stories in home groups as well as organized churches. Neither is all bad, but we must follow the leading of the Holy Ghost.

I personally believe that God places people. We don't just at random go where we go. Many times God pushes us out of the nest because He has a plan elsewhere. We should make every move peacefully. I would never want to tear down a church because of my personal feelings because something in me has changed. We must remember that many of the people there maybe supposed to be there and I don't want to be responsible for hurting someone else. In a nutshell I don't believe one church is better than another because their is only one church and it belongs to Jesus Christ. If I did want to compare churches I am a little biased because I would say that my local church is the best. lol

P.S. any church must continue to be built upon the apostles doctrine to be a church no matter the size of the building.

[good samaritan]

The church I am from has moved into breaking up into home groups during week days. They join together corporately on Sundays. I am not against home groups as long as it Gods plan and not someone being rebellious. I have seen people with lots of pride get disgruntled because they aren't in charge pull out and try to convince everyone else that they should follow. One advantage to a organized church is they have government. (deacons, elders, presbyters,and bylaws that have been voted on by the body) They are not free to do whatever they want to do.

I have seen some home groups turn into cults teaching heresy that was hard to escape. Matter of fact, I have neighbors who have recently survived such an experience and are still struggling to recover from a home group. No matter what the church venue there is a dominant personality or personalities that usually lead the group. We are to beware wolves in sheep's clothing and encourage people to develop a personal walk with God for their self and stand for what they believe is right. God will separate the wheat from the tares.

[good samaritan]

Jesus refers to people like sheep for a reason. Most people follow. That is o.k. but we must be sure we are following the right thing.

[Aquila]

I am late getting into this thread so I have just skimmed through it. I am supportive of any church that belongs to God and is obedient to his words. My thoughts are that we should not allow divisions among one another because of the size of the building we worship. Most every church of any size started as a home group until they needed more accommodations for the congregation as it grew. I know people who have had horror stories in home groups as well as organized churches. Neither is all bad, but we must follow the leading of the Holy Ghost.

I personally believe that God places people. We don't just at random go where we go. Many times God pushes us out of the nest because He has a plan elsewhere. We should make every move peacefully. I would never want to tear down a church because of my personal feelings because something in me has changed. We must remember that many of the people there maybe supposed to be there and I don't want to be responsible for hurting someone else. In a nutshell I don't believe one church is better than another because their is only one church and it belongs to Jesus Christ. If I did want to compare churches I am a little biased because I would say that my local church is the best. lol

P.S. any church must continue to be built upon the apostles doctrine to be a church no matter the size of the building.

Amen. The size of the building doesn't matter. But at the same time... it does. Here's why...

Most don't realize that the Bible tells us how to have church. So the issue really isn't house vs. church building. The issue is the biblical method of discipleship and gathering together. When we meet, Paul specifically states that the following should occur in I Corinthians 14:26-38:

- Everyone is able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, being done by two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers (prophets) speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor. This is so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. In other words, meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers (prophets) guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing or asking silly and/or distracting questions.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

Notice a very important verse in this passage:

I Corinthians 14:37
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

God commands that the above be present when disciples of Jesus gather together. If the above commandments cannot be obeyed, or a setting isn't provided where they can be put into practice, biblical discipleship and gathering ISN'T taking place. This isn't about houses vs. church buildings. This is about obeying the Word of God as it relates to how God commands our gatherings to be. If I attended a mega church, could I walk up to the platform, request the microphone, and share a passage and what the Lord put on my heart at will? Would the pastor of that mega church "hold his peace" as I essentially "preached" to the people? Could anyone in the congregation comment and request the microphone after I used it? Would the song leader allow me to sing or play a song God put on my heart for the congregation if I walked up and requested to do so during service? If not... the meeting isn't biblical. In God's order, every child of God has a voice, a gift, and something to contribute. In man's model... we're passive spectators expected to do nothing more than show up, smile, cheer lead the preacher, and give our money. True and biblical church gatherings are designed for "body ministry", not a one man show.

This is an obedience issue. Not a house vs. building issue. Obeying what Paul specifically told us are commandments from the Lord regarding our gathering together is of the utmost importance.

Now, I know of a very few larger churches (and even a mega church) that have small group ministries or are essentially a network of house churches or cell groups. These churches are providing a format wherein this "body ministry" that Paul described can take place. But if a church isn't providing a venue for this body ministry, they are neglecting these "commandments of the Lord".

So, in many institutional churches we have an "obedience issue"... not a "building issue". This is like a church refusing to practice baptism. A commandment of the Lord is a commandment of the Lord. To neglect it for the sake of loyalty to a given man-made model or system of doing church is error at best... or rebellion at its worst.

I could get into the church's mission, supporting the widows and orphans, helping the poor, etc. ... and how the massive expenses inherent in the institutional methods of doing church inhibit progress in these areas. But that isn't the spiritual focus I wish to maintain. That's an issue of generosity, sacrifice, and charity.

[good samaritan]

I am proud to say that our church has that criteria of 1 cor. 14. I also understand there to be a balance to things. Common sense. If I where in a small group church and someone came in to take advantage of our system of operation to share a view that was heretical then he may would be asked to leave. Then there would be some work to be done afterwards to make sure those who are new in their walk with God are still on track.

When you work with the lost of this world you get all kinds of people and I don't think that it is meant to be a free for all.(I know that is not what you're saying) So the larger the body the more government required to regulate it or else it would be chaos. That still doesn't mean that a large church can not meet scriptural criteria, but it does mean that things will have to be more structured. I believe Paul himself isn't opposed to order. I support home groups and will probably try to institute the practice as we grow. I don't want to see little groups isolated to their self and division to take place. Paul spoke much about unity.

I think it is important to have circles of people where ministry can take place on a more personal level, but not to disconnect from the body of Christ which is a very large number.

[good samaritan]

Many people get into home groups because they are hurt and disappointed with things and it really is more about their self then it is about God. Even then I think God is in it. The founder of our church where I am presently came out of another local church. Years passed and the Lord dealt with him to start a church and he did. He even gave up his credentials to do so because he believed it was of God. Today this man is licensed again and we are a part of an organization that denied its formation. We must listen to God before man, but we must never let ourselves become bitter because it is only ourselves that lose.

If we are truly part of the same church, then instead of tearing down one another and being critical of our differences of doing things, we should be praying for one another. I believe the best way to convert someone is first to keep a connection to them. If I come off so strong that I offend them then I may lose any future influence that I may ever have with them again. This is a two edged sword and it cuts on both sides. I don't oppose any home group or mega church that is doing the work of God, but lets be about reconciliation and not about capitalizing on people's bad experience.

To the person who started this thread I hope he is Where God would have him be. I hope that he doesn't allow offences that has taken place to isolate him from the body of Christ. We sometimes go through seasons and we must be sure of Gods' will and not just be responding to a season we are in.

[Jermyn Davidson]

We sometimes go through seasons and we must be sure of Gods' will and not just be responding to a season we are in.

Say it preacher!

[Aquila]

I am proud to say that our church has that criteria of 1 cor. 14. I also understand there to be a balance to things. Common sense. If I where in a small group church and someone came in to take advantage of our system of operation to share a view that was heretical then he may would be asked to leave. Then there would be some work to be done afterwards to make sure those who are new in their walk with God are still on track.

When you work with the lost of this world you get all kinds of people and I don't think that it is meant to be a free for all.(I know that is not what you're saying) So the larger the body the more government required to regulate it or else it would be chaos. That still doesn't mean that a large church can not meet scriptural criteria, but it does mean that things will have to be more structured. I believe Paul himself isn't opposed to order. I support home groups and will probably try to institute the practice as we grow. I don't want to see little groups isolated to their self and division to take place. Paul spoke much about unity.

I think it is important have circles of people where ministry can place on personal level, but not to disconnect from the body of Christ which is a very large number.

:thumbsup

We've had people come in with misguided ideas. The elders will tenderly correct those who are misguided within the meeting on the spot. Most of our members are pretty well versed on Scripture, so not a lot slips past us. But I do think that it is important for newer believers to see the correction to ensure that they understand the error being made and why it is an error. If the heretic continues to push for the error, the elder has a right to ask them to leave the meeting. But honestly, I've not seen this actually happen yet. Most pipe down and take a lesson.

We've never had a house church meeting free for all, thank God. Most follow Paul's guidance on respect and following the guidance of the elders.

In the house church movement, division isn't a bad thing. It's the goal. But let me clarify! lol As a house church grows it eventually becomes too large to gather in a home. Or it becomes too large for body ministry to take place affectively. At that point... we're pregnant. It's time to divide, to give birth. We move into a phase where we begin praying for God to move on someone to host another gathering in their home. We've had about 5 different house churches birthed from our house church. And since they birthed from us... they've given birth a couple times too! The elder of our house church would typically help the new host set up the gathering in their home on a day when he could be available for them. Within time, those meeting the criteria of being an elder are appointed as elders within the new group. And the new group is set free to grow and develop as God leads it. Fellowship is maintained. One of the fun things we've discovered is "crashing the party". If we feel led to, or hear that a house church is struggling, we "show up" out of the blue on their gathering night! LOL It's like a family reunion at that point, lots of tears, catching up, embracing. It's great. Makes me smile when I think about it. :)

Ultimately, the goal is to train and equip every able bodied saint to host gatherings in their homes. And we send them out to do so as led or as the house church gets too large. So we multiply through division. It's a joyous thing for new house churches to be born.

Traditionally, institutional churches focus on adding "members". Not by training all able bodied members to become church planters themselves. These "members" are typically expected to be "lifers" who stay in the church body and "support" it financially and with their volunteered time and effort. Sadly, within the Apostolic churches I know... men aren't often released to follow the call on their heart... unless the pastor "feels" it's the right time. I've seen men tangled up in this political mess for over 10 years until they suddenly decide they must go and start a work in spite of what the pastor thinks. That pastor normally labels them as "rebellious" and when their church gets off the ground, we were forbidden to fellowship them or visit. I'm sure you've seen this dynamic. I've also seen pastors take a man and appoint him over a home fellowship group with the possibility of it becoming a "daughter work"... only to watch the pastor shut it all down once it really starts to get off the ground. These "members" gained during this period are normally assimilated back into the main body and the "membership" roles grow from it.

I know a pastor who talked frankly with me before I left the institutional church. He said, "Chris, I have at least 10 faithful men who are more than qualified to start churches and pastor. Many have been on the pews for years. But I can't let them go." I asked, "Why?", and he stared through the windshield into the distance. "Because they are the most faithful families when it comes to their time and finances. I'm believing that God will bring enough growth and faithfulness to our congregation so that we can afford to release at least a couple of these families. Then I'll know God has spoken regarding their release." I said, "What if by releasing them, we please God, and he bring the growth you're talking about?" He said, "Chris, this is the Lord's work and I have to be a good steward." I'm thinking... he demands that we tithe even if we are financially free falling. And he says over the pulpit, "You just have to have faith!" But here he is... Where's his faith? We got growth... but the same ol' crew of dedicated souls still managed everything while the new members fell asleep on the pews. Oh, the finances improved after the new people started tithing. But time is often something people guard more than money. The conditions weren't opening to release anyone.

I left that church several years ago. I went back to visit and guess what? There are those same ol' frustrated faces of men with a call and a dream to pastor. They're grayer and older now... but they are still dreaming and waiting for the day that will never come. Found out that the pastor has a building project. It's going to cost so much, I gasped in disbelief. I guess he'll need to hold on to those faithful families called to ministry for a while until all that gets paid off too. :(

It's so sad. I see good people caught up in a top heavy and overly expensive system that needs their continued dedication for it's own survival. This pastor was right. If he released all 10 of those families who have men who are more than qualified to pastor... his own church would be left limping financially. He'd have to take a pay cut and take a second job just to sustain his own family. And the building program would never materialize.

[Rudy]

This thread sure took off!!!

[shag]

This thread sure took off!!!

Yep, and I'm hankering to get in on it too, but I can't get the time yet. I'm desiring to transition my family to house church atleast 1/2 the time over the next full year. I believe God spoke into my spirit at the beginning of this year, a week ago, to do all I can to focus on making sure I'm "right" w him in the way I'm living, and being a husband and father over the next year, then he will work out the escape from institutional mindset and the baggage that goes w it, and help my family to in one year begin housechurching atleast 1/2 the time weekly.

[Esaias]

Yep, and I'm hankering to get in on it too, but I can't get the time yet. I'm desiring to transition my family to house church atleast 1/2 the time over the next full year. I believe God spoke into my spirit at the beginning of this year, a week ago, to do all I can to focus on making sure I'm "right" w him in the way I'm living, and being a husband and father over the next year, then he will work out the escape from institutional mindset and the baggage that goes w it, and help my family to in one year begin housechurching atleast 1/2 the time weekly.

Why can't you start immediately?

[good samaritan]

Why can't a person do both? People are calling them institutional churches so I will continue for sake of understanding. Why can't you stay connected to a inst. church and do home group on weekdays? There are things you can do in an inst. church that can't be done in home groups and visa versa. I love sending my children to church camp where people that are very talented with children can work with them. I am glad to have foreign missions giving in a structure that works well to provide for missionaries. I am thankful for seminaries were people can learn doctrinally.

I believe the church culture is changing and some faster than others. We need to get rid of the bad, but continue in the good. Saying Inst. churches is bad is like saying the internet is bad, it is not the church it is the people. Bad people can be in home groups as well as larger groups. The sad thing is we are becoming a culture that are quitters. If a marriage isn't making us happy just quit. If I don't like my job I will quit no matter how it leaves my family. We need to have stability in our lives.

If God is leading you to a home group, by all means, do so. We should be sure it is God and not just emotions. What will happen when in a few months things are not going right in that home group? It is never going to be perfect. Read something here recently that stuck: put lipstick on a pig and you just got a pig with make-up. No matter how you promote your church you still are what you are. I want our church to be centered on Jesus Christ and to cause people to live for him.

The biggest problems with all churches is that we have lost our focus. Living and serving the love of our life Jesus Christ. If God is the center of a church they will do well no matter if it does are doesn't have a steeple.

[Aquila]

There isn't anything wrong with having both house church/cell group ministry and traditional church... if both are biblical and not legalistic or cult-like in their desire to control.

[KeptByTheWord]

Aquila - I'm so glad to hear how the Lord is blessing and growing the home church fellowship you are in. Our fellowship just grew recently as well, and although we have not yet gotten big enough to "birth" a new one, who knows what the Lord may hold in store for us. It is not about any of us being "the" leader, but about each husband being the priest of his home, the elders of our assembly, and our families gathering together to worship, study, pray, fellowship, and encourage each other in our relationship with the Lord. One favorite scripture that we have is this one: Heb. 10:23-25

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Exhorting one another, assembling together, provoking unto love and good works - that is usually accomplished quite well in a small group setting wherever, and however it may take place.

[KeptByTheWord]

If God is leading you to a home group, by all means, do so. We should be sure it is God and not just emotions. What will happen when in a few months things are not going right in that home group? It is never going to be perfect. Read something here recently that stuck: put lipstick on a pig and you just got a pig with make-up. No matter how you promote your church you still are what you are. I want our church to be centered on Jesus Christ and to cause people to live for him.

The biggest problems with all churches is that we have lost our focus. Living and serving the love of our life Jesus Christ. If God is the center of a church they will do well no matter if it does are doesn't have a steeple.

I am certainly not against meeting in a larger building, if need be. But one thing needs to change. People need to be taught that the building is not the church. They are the church. We are the church. We are part of the body of Christ, and we are his extended hands and feet wherever we go. We are the temple of God.

1 Cor. 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

[J.A. Perez]

I believe you are grossly mischaracterizing things brother.

Leaving a man's church because you have had a philosophical shift that is incompatible with his, is the highest expression of submission to that man's authority as pastor of that church.

With all due respect bro, I do not agree.

Look at the pictures of the home church, there is no difference between the "saved" and lost, wow what confusion. The video reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary.

Listen bro, I have been in your shoes before, I had old men, preachers telling me to leave, telling me to "come to their church and we'll set you up" another said, "if you come, You can be our youth leader" another said "I will set you up as the new pastor." but instead thankfully I had Real men with sound Voices that helped me my Pastor and (Jesus Himself), I waited observed Prayed much, and prayed again, fasted, watched, plead for direction from God, and the word that kept coming was spoken by an elderly woman in the church, she said, "God likes stickers." We were broke, I was young had a baby, wife and a mortgage, and had been laid off work for 8 months. We hung in there and God blessed us, because of it, its been over a decade later and Have a great job and my wife owns her own business. What we did was dig our heels in and said whatever happens Hell or High water we aint leaving! We became Helps. We worked the prisons, Preached to hundreds of inmates over the years, prayed em through, Baptized em in Jesus name! Taught many home bible studies through the years, saw them come into the church on a pew paying tithe, worshiping God, And because we were about God's business, he was about ours.

If you notice how _______ was, sounding so soft so reserved so gentle. Then when I posted he became a different person Abhorring the words I had written. Very super spiritual, Advanced in his learning, as to look down from his keyboard at us petty Tithe payers. Please, you haven't seen a raw spirit, so mean with vehement anger until you appose a compromiser. Who couldn't wait on God's timing for him to be sent out into the ministry. And now he looks down on those poor boys that are getting older, waiting serving the Pastor, and remaining on being faithful and waiting on tables, washing the hands of the Man of God pouring, and pouring, just like Elisha did to Elijah. Sad souls 'Look at how awesome I am now! Look at how great we are' 'Look how free we are' not a quote but the spirit in which he writes speaks.

There are many churches in OHIO near Dayton, Elder C. Craig, Elder T. Meade, Elder R. Davis, Elder D. Meade,, Elder S. Kerr, Elder J. Holman, Elder G. Adkins,

These men are fair, if any have said that God told them to leave any of these churches, would speak volumes on what kind of Christian they claim to be.

MHO, :begging
J.A. Perez

[shag]

Why can't you start immediately?




A few reasons...
I don't feel like I've been "where I need to be", to take on the role of leading my family into house church meetings just yet.
I own my own business, and last year was very busy for me, and I don't feel like I took adequate time in the way of leading the home Spiritually. My prayer life, or fasting, wasn't consistant, and properly "turning off" work and "turning on" family values at the end of the day was lacking.
I want my wife and my own confidence in myself to go the direction of leading my family spiritually, in the way of house church.

The deal is, I felt like God wants me to better conform into the man that I should be and correct the issues that I'm lacking, no matter if I was to continue institutional church, or going to house church. And as many holes as I see an institutional church, I feel like God wants me to fix the priorities of myself first, before I head in the house church direction.

We also homeschool, and I feel like my wife and daughter enjoy a larger church setting to visit afterward, and so to jump right into housechirch requires a decision by more than myself. She's interested, but not as much as me. That's why I would like, with her on board, to do them both for a while and see if it evolves into something more.

At the beginning of this year,(2015)I went to my pastor's office early in the morning, and washed his feet, because I felt like God wanted me to use that as a first step in the right direction, to show that I had no wrong spirit about me no matter what the future holds. He is an awesome pastor, awesome preaching, but he is knee deep in upc religion, and I've had about all I can tolerate, but I feel my spirit is right, no bitterness, just see that I can't change a religious mindset.
Offering baskets 3x a week, plus tithing, and the needy saints don't get to take any out when it goes by them, only
Put in, ...while "the church" owns a shopping center and 3-4 houses, and 'leadership" can't come up with $125 to help a renter on their rental houses owned, to pay for a heater blower on a stove when it's single digit weather.
Anyway, yeah I'm tired of the added baggage that comes with adding to the bible in regard to "going to church", or rather being the church.... But I feel I must first show to God that I am walking consistantly & daily in the Spirit, continually, before I attempt to "break away"

[Originalist]

With all due respect bro, I do not agree.

Look at the pictures of the home church, there is no difference between the "saved" and lost, wow what confusion. The video reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary.

Listen bro, I have been in your shoes before, I had old men, preachers telling me to leave, telling me to "come to their church and we'll set you up" another said, "if you come, You can be our youth leader" another said "I will set you up as the new pastor." but instead thankfully I had Real men with sound Voices that helped me my Pastor and (Jesus Himself), I waited observed Prayed much, and prayed again, fasted, watched, plead for direction from God, and the word that kept coming was spoken by an elderly woman in the church, she said, "God likes stickers." We were broke, I was young had a baby, wife and a mortgage, and had been laid off work for 8 months. We hung in there and God blessed us, because of it, its been over a decade later and Have a great job and my wife owns her own business. What we did was dig our heels in and said whatever happens Hell or High water we aint leaving! We became Helps. We worked the prisons, Preached to hundreds of inmates over the years, prayed em through, Baptized em in Jesus name! Taught many home bible studies through the years, saw them come into the church on a pew paying tithe, worshiping God, And because we were about God's business, he was about ours.

If you notice how _______ was, sounding so soft so reserved so gentle. Then when I posted he became a different person Abhorring the words I had written. Very super spiritual, Advanced in his learning, as to look down from his keyboard at us petty Tithe payers. Please, you haven't seen a raw spirit, so mean with vehement anger until you appose a compromiser. Who couldn't wait on God's timing for him to be sent out into the ministry. And now he looks down on those poor boys that are getting older, waiting serving the Pastor, and remaining on being faithful and waiting on tables, washing the hands of the Man of God pouring, and pouring. Sad souls 'Look at how awesome I am now! Look at how great we are' 'Look how free we are' not a quote but the spirit in which he writes speaks.

There are many churches in OHIO near Dayton, Elder C. Craig, Elder T. Meade, Elder R. Davis, Elder D. Meade,, Elder S. Kerr, Elder J. Holman, Elder G. Adkins,

These men are fair, if any have said that God told them to leave any of these churches, would speak volumes on what kind of Christian they claim to be.

MHO, :begging
J.A. Perez

All the error in the main stream Oneness movement and you accuse the guys on the video of looking Jim Jones? Really? You know who you sound like? You sound like all my AoG elders who told me I was joining a cult for embracing the Oneness doctrine and Acts 2:38? Tithing? You still haven't seen through that error?

Look, I'm no novice. I'm 49. I have had the Holy Ghost and walked with God since I was 15. I've never been prone to make snap decisions out of emotion. I've agonized over this for years. I've tried to ignore the obvious. But I be would just as disobedient for sticking around as I would have been if I had ignored the Oneness truth God was trying to show me back in 1992 and had stayed in the AoG instead. Somebody had to leave the Trinitarian churches at the turn of the last century to establish outposts to proclaim the apostolic truth God was showing them.


Look at the pictures of the home church, there is no difference between the "saved" and lost

So those with more conservative holiness standards of dress can't have a home church? Again, you don't where I've been and how long I have hung in there. I'm tired of never planning things because I'm supposed to just hang out and let God bring me that perfect job that will never interfere with church in any way. I'm tired of having to hide my wife from the shame of our struggle from people who can't understand we don't have the gas right now to go to church every Wednesday night much less be involved in any meaningful way. I'm tired of people who have family members standing in line to relieve them of having to be a real parent so they can play church judging me.

[Esaias]

A few reasons...
I don't feel like I've been "where I need to be", to take on the role of leading my family into house church meetings just yet.
I own my own business, and last year was very busy for me, and I don't feel like I took adequate time in the way of leading the home Spiritually. My prayer life, or fasting, wasn't consistant, and properly "turning off" work and "turning on" family values at the end of the day was lacking.
I want my wife and my own confidence in myself to go the direction of leading my family spiritually, in the way of house church.

The deal is, I felt like God wants me to better conform into the man that I should be and correct the issues that I'm lacking, no matter if I was to continue institutional church, or going to house church. And as many holes as I see an institutional church, I feel like God wants me to fix the priorities of myself first, before I head in the house church direction.

We also homeschool, and I feel like my wife and daughter enjoy a larger church setting to visit afterward, and so to jump right into housechirch requires a decision by more than myself. She's interested, but not as much as me. That's why I would like, with her on board, to do them both for a while and see if it evolves into something more.

At the beginning of this year,(2015)I went to my pastor's office early in the morning, and washed his feet, because I felt like God wanted me to use that as a first step in the right direction, to show that I had no wrong spirit about me no matter what the future holds. He is an awesome pastor, awesome preaching, but he is knee deep in upc religion, and I've had about all I can tolerate, but I feel my spirit is right, no bitterness, just see that I can't change a religious mindset.
Offering baskets 3x a week, plus tithing, and the needy saints don't get to take any out when it goes by them, only
Put in, ...while "the church" owns a shopping center and 3-4 houses, and 'leadership" can't come up with $125 to help a renter on their rental houses owned, to pay for a heater blower on a stove when it's single digit weather.
Anyway, yeah I'm tired of the added baggage that comes with adding to the bible in regard to "going to church", or rather being the church.... But I feel I must first show to God that I am walking consistantly & daily in the Spirit, continually, before I attempt to "break away"

I would start by having family worship. Every family should have a time each week if not daily, to pray together and read the scriptures together. And you, the husband and father, teaching your family God's word. That's where it starts. No need to worry about "starting a church", just start saturating your home life with God's Word and the rest usually falls into place.

+1 on the homeschooling.

[Esaias]

With all due respect bro, I do not agree.

Look at the pictures of the home church, there is no difference between the "saved" and lost, wow what confusion. The video reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary.

Listen bro, I have been in your shoes before, I had old men, preachers telling me to leave, telling me to "come to their church and we'll set you up" another said, "if you come, You can be our youth leader" another said "I will set you up as the new pastor." but instead thankfully I had Real men with sound Voices that helped me my Pastor and (Jesus Himself), I waited observed Prayed much, and prayed again, fasted, watched, plead for direction from God, and the word that kept coming was spoken by an elderly woman in the church, she said, "God likes stickers." We were broke, I was young had a baby, wife and a mortgage, and had been laid off work for 8 months. We hung in there and God blessed us, because of it, its been over a decade later and Have a great job and my wife owns her own business. What we did was dig our heels in and said whatever happens Hell or High water we aint leaving! We became Helps. We worked the prisons, Preached to hundreds of inmates over the years, prayed em through, Baptized em in Jesus name! Taught many home bible studies through the years, saw them come into the church on a pew paying tithe, worshiping God, And because we were about God's business, he was about ours.

If you notice how _______ was, sounding so soft so reserved so gentle. Then when I posted he became a different person Abhorring the words I had written. Very super spiritual, Advanced in his learning, as to look down from his keyboard at us petty Tithe payers. Please, you haven't seen a raw spirit, so mean with vehement anger until you appose a compromiser. Who couldn't wait on God's timing for him to be sent out into the ministry. And now he looks down on those poor boys that are getting older, waiting serving the Pastor, and remaining on being faithful and waiting on tables, washing the hands of the Man of God pouring, and pouring, just like Elisha did to Elijah. Sad souls 'Look at how awesome I am now! Look at how great we are' 'Look how free we are' not a quote but the spirit in which he writes speaks.

There are many churches in OHIO near Dayton, Elder C. Craig, Elder T. Meade, Elder R. Davis, Elder D. Meade,, Elder S. Kerr, Elder J. Holman, Elder G. Adkins,

These men are fair, if any have said that God told them to leave any of these churches, would speak volumes on what kind of Christian they claim to be.

MHO, :begging
J.A. Perez

We're all glad you are blessed where you are. Those of us who house church are also blessed. You can believe whatever you want, just know that God also moves outside your denomination and tradition.

[J.A. Perez]

A few reasons...
I don't feel like I've been "where I need to be", to take on the role of leading my family into house church meetings just yet.
I own my own business, and last year was very busy for me, and I don't feel like I took adequate time in the way of leading the home Spiritually. My prayer life, or fasting, wasn't consistant, and properly "turning off" work and "turning on" family values at the end of the day was lacking.
I want my wife and my own confidence in myself to go the direction of leading my family spiritually, in the way of house church.

The deal is, I felt like God wants me to better conform into the man that I should be and correct the issues that I'm lacking, no matter if I was to continue institutional church, or going to house church. And as many holes as I see an institutional church, I feel like God wants me to fix the priorities of myself first, before I head in the house church direction.

We also homeschool, and I feel like my wife and daughter enjoy a larger church setting to visit afterward, and so to jump right into housechirch requires a decision by more than myself. She's interested, but not as much as me. That's why I would like, with her on board, to do them both for a while and see if it evolves into something more.

At the beginning of this year,(2015)I went to my pastor's office early in the morning, and washed his feet, because I felt like God wanted me to use that as a first step in the right direction, to show that I had no wrong spirit about me no matter what the future holds. He is an awesome pastor, awesome preaching, but he is knee deep in upc religion, and I've had about all I can tolerate, but I feel my spirit is right, no bitterness, just see that I can't change a religious mindset.
Offering baskets 3x a week, plus tithing, and the needy saints don't get to take any out when it goes by them, only
Put in, ...while "the church" owns a shopping center and 3-4 houses, and 'leadership" can't come up with $125 to help a renter on their rental houses owned, to pay for a heater blower on a stove when it's single digit weather.
Anyway, yeah I'm tired of the added baggage that comes with adding to the bible in regard to "going to church", or rather being the church.... But I feel I must first show to God that I am walking consistantly & daily in the Spirit, continually, before I attempt to "break away"

Very good attitude bro.
Usually our problem with everyone else can be fixed by repairing "the man in the mirror" a very good message taught by elder McDonald at A.M.C.

Originalist;
Your right there are many faults in the oneness movement and our local church, I am on occasion one of them until I pray thru.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

[J.A. Perez]

So those with more conservative holiness standards of dress can't have a home church? Again, you don't where I've been and how long I have hung in there. I'm tired of never planning things because I'm supposed to just hang out and let God bring me that perfect job that will never interfere with church in any way. I'm tired of having to hide my wife from the shame of our struggle from people who can't understand we don't have the gas right now to go to church every Wednesday night much less be involved in any meaningful way. I'm tired of people who have family members standing in line to relieve them of having to be a real parent so they can play church judging me.

I've been there bro, All of my family is AOG and they all hate me for leaving, so when I went through it we were alone. Elder J. Mustian preached a message "Alone" 2 years ago at Elder Cavaness meeting Please call the church Get the message.

We had to go to the store and buy lil cheap fans with a heater when we had no heat. That was many years ago but we still got em.

P.S. I am certainly not supposing you as a rookie, I just trying to tell my story maybe, maybe something might help. I sincerely feel for you bro.
Tonight we as a church will break our fast with communion, I am in prayer about you and your situation. (please for give me for letting you guys know Our family is fasting, we are not better than any because of it we only want to make ourselves better than we had been.)

Lords Blessing,
J.A. Perez

[Originalist]

Very good attitude bro.
Usually our problem with everyone else can be fixed by repairing "the man in the mirror" a very good message taught by elder McDonald at A.M.C.

Originalist;
Your right there are many faults in the oneness movement and our local church, I am on occasion one of them until I pray thru.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

I made it clear in my original post that I have no issue with my pastor per say. I just see our visions going in separate directions. He has an expectation of me that I will never be able to live up to in my present state. When his girls were growing up they practically lived with his mother-in-law so he and his wife would be 'free to minister'. THAT is not of God, but I see it ALL the time in our churches.

[Originalist]

I've been there bro, All of my family is AOG and they all hate me for leaving, so when I went through it we were alone. Elder J. Mustian preached a message "Alone" 2 years ago at Elder Cavaness meeting Please call the church Get the message.

We had to go to the store and buy lil cheap fans with a heater when we had no heat. That was many years ago but we still got em.

P.S. I am certainly not supposing you as a rookie, I just trying to tell my story maybe, maybe something might help. I sincerely feel for you bro.
Tonight we as a church will break our fast with communion, I am in prayer about you and your situation. (please for give me for letting you guys know Our family is fasting, we are not better than any because of it we only want to make ourselves better than we had been.)



Lords Blessing,
J.A. Perez


Thank you for your concern.

Brother, while meeting in homes is certainly not some cure all, you are aware aren't you that the early church met in homes? Are you aware that the cathoilics invented church buildings? Don't you think that the money we spend on buildings would be better used to keep missionaries on the field instead of them having to come home and beg to be sent back every two years? Why do you so easily dismiss home churches?

[Originalist]

Maybe you don't understand house churches. Well, we're also called, "simple churches". Here's a video about the core and foundational beliefs of "simple church"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_SIiPl4



How is this "Jim Jones"?

[shazeep]

I would start by having family worship. Every family should have a time each week if not daily, to pray together and read the scriptures together. And you, the husband and father, teaching your family God's word. That's where it starts. No need to worry about "starting a church", just start saturating your home life with God's Word and the rest usually falls into place.

+1 on the homeschooling.:nod

[J.A. Perez]

Thank you for your concern.

Brother, while meeting in homes is certainly not some cure all, you are aware aren't you that the early church met in homes? Are you aware that the cathoilics invented church buildings? Don't you think that the money we spend on buildings would be better used to keep missionaries on the field instead of them having to come home and beg to be sent back every two years? Why do you so easily dismiss home churches?

O,
I am aware of our history, I have read much and spoken to Elders about it from all angles over the years. It is a joy of mine to read and learn about what God did through the early church on through the centuries. One very interesting concept that I had to understand when considering church history is that he church is alive. What I found is that for lack of a better word the church had to evolve in one way or the other. It is growing, like us our understanding of who God is grows as we grow in grace and Mature. Our relationship becomes deeper our convictions more acute. We develop and expand our new convert concepts into a mature man. So has the Church.
Our forefathers met is houses and catacombs because they dad to, not by choice, persecution was heavy in the early days of the apostolic movement. The apostles were often found in the synagogues. That was God's design, there had always been a place to come hear the word of the Lord. Of course the early church met from house to house at times because that was common culture of Jewish tradition not Doctrine. In fact Jesus spent more time in the temple than most during his earthly ministry. Synagogues were widely attended by the early Apostolic church, but I'm not supposing we start to do that again because they did. The church through the centuries has had flairs of revival and persecution. Oftentimes God allowed it to be so, either to bring change or birth of a new wave of hunger. It has always been, he even did that to Israel through the years. The early men and women that were given this truth in the early years of our country did what they did because they didn't know better, they did their best until they learned that there was more. They walked in the light that they had, though dim because of formal tradition the Truth shone and guided the way out. Just because a false teacher used a pulpit doesn't mean that pulpits are wrong. The church has grown and used whatever tools it has at its disposal. Church Buildings where a group of people meet are the will of God, structure, government and order are in Gods character. A place designed and set apart for the hearing of Gods word and His worship ONLY is a good thing. I don't want to go back to brush arbors or tent revivals, because that's what we used to do, but I've learned the thing that made those things successful was Godly Zeal and Hunger. God may be no respecter of persons but he is a respecter of Consecration. Because of it, the church has become what it is today. Missions has always lacked funding that's not because of a church note, that is because of stingy people that wont trust God with their money. They want their boats and fishing trips instead. Im not preach against boats or fishing) Then some want to use Acts 2:46 to prove its more apostolic to met in a home, but the first part of that verse was that they went to the Temple daily. What our churches in some areas need is old fashioned hunger, dictation, consecration, then soul winning, that's the only way to redeem what they've lost.(My opinion) Every time I go through a season of a dry spell I end up having to grab myself by the back of my neck and pray until something changes. The early men and women who evangelized the states after the turn of the century with the Oneness truth and ACTS 2:38 had great success, they'd go into a city have massive miracles and outpouring tons of people repenting coming to God, closing the whole town down while the revival went on. BUT, they'd believe God, pack up there duds and move on to the next place God bid them go. That town was left with out a pastor with out a leader left to the wolves. I don't want to go back to that. The home church scenario may end up what we all might have to belong to if Jesus don't come back soon, I don't know? But as for now, the way that seemeth right to the Spirit and the Churches of God agree... You need a Pastor and you need a church.

Like Elder Morton said, "Don't pick at the knot."

Very Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

[Originalist]

Missions has always lacked funding that's not because of a church note, that is because of stingy people that wont trust God with their money.

That's quite an indictment, sir. I dare say that the money that has been spent on bass boats is nothing compared to the money that has been spent on buildings we did not need that were built while the current building wasn't even full. And yes, the Apostles preached in the synagogues to JEWS. Did they preach in pagan temples to the Gentile church? No. The building God lives in is his church. There is nothing in the Apostles teaching that speaks of a special meeting place.

You need a Pastor and you need a church.

Again, why is this only possible at the traditional church setting? I'm not trying to evade the need of elders in my life, nor am I seeking to withdraw from God's people.

[J.A. Perez]

That's quite an indictment, sir. I dare say that the money that has been spent on bass boats is nothing compared to the money that has been spent on buildings we did not need that were built while the current building wasn't even full. And yes, the Apostles preached in the synagogues to JEWS. Did they preach in pagan temples to the Gentile church? No. The building God lives in is his church. there is nothing in the Apostles teaching that speaks of a special meeting place.
Again, why is this only possible at the traditional church setting? I'm not trying to evade the need of elders in my life, nor am I seeking to withdraw from God's people.

O,
Missions has always been an extra offering aside from your tithe and offering, People instead would rather enjoy the pleasure of life than to spend and be spent, give until there's no more to give. There is always that nice suit you got to have, that extra car you think you need, that pretty dress your kids want.

Most people don't know how much money to support the church (lights mortgage etc.) the pastor gives. They don't know the money that goes out to missions, an evangelist, or church school that comes from the pastors own pocket. Because they wont tell you.
Its similar in that of a business, the owner has to sacrifice for years and even after that he has to carry the business on his shoulders till almost retirement. Long hours day after day called all time of the day and night. Then without any Social Security (depending on the state) or retirement without anything. A life of giving, sacrifice, work, preaching the gospel and all they end up with is maybe a parsonage. Maybe a small Bishops salary. At least a business owner has something to support him in his old age. They always look fine and like everything is going great because they don't want people to feel sorry for them.
That's why a man with a sizable church or small pulls for offerings, not because he's a 'manna God' its because, If you only knew how many don't give. Think about it in every church there is always the 'magnificent minority' the 'faithful few' that do all the prayer, work, cleaning, evangelizing, and they are also the few that give as God has given.

Elder V. Bean, " God wont care until we care."

We don't really care until God has our wallets.

Pullen for ya,
J.A. Perez

[Originalist]

O,
Missions has always been an extra offering aside from your tithe and offering, People instead would rather enjoy the pleasure of life that to spend and be spent, give until there's no more to give. There is always that nice suit you got to have, that extra car you think you need, that pretty dress your kids want.

Most people don't know how much money to support the church (lights mortgage etc.) the pastor gives. They don't know the money that goes out to missions, an evangelist, or church school that comes from the pastors own pocket. Because they wont tell you.
Its similar in that of a business, the owner has to sacrifice for years and even after that he has to carry the business on his shoulders till almost retirement. Long hours day after day called all time of the day and night. Then without any Social Security (depending on the state) or retirement without anything. A life of giving, sacrifice, work, preaching the gospel and all they end up with is maybe a parsonage. Maybe a small Bishops salary. At least a business owner has something to support him in his old age. They always look fine and like everything is going great because they don't want people to feel sorry for them.
That's why a man with a sizable church or small pulls for offerings, not because he's a 'manna God' its because, If you only knew how many don't give. Think about it in every church there is always the 'magnificent minority' the 'faithful few' that do all the prayer, work, cleaning, evangelizing, and they are also the few that give as God has given.

Elder V. Bean, " God wont care until we care."

We don't really care until God has our wallets.

Pullen for ya,
J.A. Perez


Tithes? Offerings? Light bills? Overhead? It's all baggage we bring on ourselves by our insistence on clinging to a man made system.

[Originalist]

Awesome song by Don Francisco about house churches! Lyrics below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvdfOcEH1mY

Familiar and comfortable
religious tradition descends.
No closer to God at the first
than they are at the end.

Expected experiences
just as the bulletin said.
Doctrinally pure,
but the words were all empty and dead

And the Spirit grieves
And the Spirit grieves

You can tell its professional
as soon as the service begins.
Really is somethin' to see
when they're packin' 'em in.

Exciting performances in music,
gesture and words.
Emotions are high,
but beneath it all, nothing is stirred.

And the Spirit grieves
And the Spirit grieves

You feel like you're home
when you walk through the living room door.
Surrounded by friends
that you love, that you've been waitin' for.

No leader is seen
but still people give voices as shown.
All bringing the gifts
that the Spirit has given His own.

And led by the Master Himself
into worship and praise.
The Shekinah descends
and infolds every heart that is raised!

And the Spirit sings!
And the love of Jesus heals and flows
New life is born and truth is preached
and heard and known!

And the Spirit sings!
And joy explodes around the throne
And the Spirit sings!
And the Spirit sings!
And the Spirit sings!
And the Spirit sings!
And the Spirit sings!!!

[Esaias]

Sounds like the institutional church is mostly stingy people who don't give, don't pray, don't contribute.

Thankfully, there are alternatives to such a system.

[Rudy]

There's is no command to have a building to bring a tithe of money to.

House churches makes you keep up on your house cleaning--Oh my!!!

[Rudy]

Originalist this is for you brother!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmizCScGLmY&list=PLOOYq012xdI7XXQjxhymlKX9_9P0uYRUb&index=16

[J.A. Perez]

Sounds like the institutional church is mostly stingy people who don't give, don't pray, don't contribute.

Thankfully, there are alternatives to such a system.

Oh I'm sorry we have normal people in our church. I guess the house churches have perfect people.

I must have been missing out all these years. My church is more like a Hospital where some are in recovery and some are in serious condition. We have bills over head sorry to say, but we do have a clean place to facilitate healing in a unpolluted atmosphere. Our top Physician has a 100% success record. His name is Jesus.

Mark 2:7
But when Jesus Heard that, he said unto them, they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. but go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

:thumbsup ,
J.A. Perez

[Praxeas]

My kind of church...
lol....lots of skin. Muslims are right. I talk to a lot of Muslims and one of their biggest criticisms of Christians if we show a lot of skin

[Praxeas]

We don't do brush arbors... but house churches like to simplify things. Not every church has a need for walls...
Whats the difference between that and myself and 3 other guys having prayer and bible study?

[Esaias]

Oh I'm sorry we have normal people in our church. I guess the house churches have perfect people.

I must have been missing out all these years. My church is more like a Hospital where some are in recovery and some are in serious condition. We have bills over head sorry to say, but we do have a clean place to facilitate healing in a unpolluted atmosphere. Our top Physician has a 100% success record. His name is Jesus.

Mark 2:7
But when Jesus Heard that, he said unto them, they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. but go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

:thumbsup ,
J.A. Perez

My point was you spoke of house churches as "satan's insane asylums" (that was your statement, was it not?) ...anyway you you presented the attitude that institutional churches have it together and only weird flakes go to house churches.

But now it looks like BOTH groups have good, bad, and ugly (and weird). Funny how that is...

Don't look down on people who love God and follow Scripture but who don't do all the extra-biblical stuff like cathedrals and church-in-debt-to-the-banks and what-not...

[Esaias]

Whats the difference between that and myself and 3 other guys having prayer and bible study?

Is your intention to be the church? Do you eat the Lord's Supper together? Does 1st Corinthians 12-14 take place?

Church is more than a cozy bible study. Nothing wrong with that, but church is more than that.

[Praxeas]

Is your intention to be the church? Do you eat the Lord's Supper together? Does 1st Corinthians 12-14 take place?

Church is more than a cozy bible study. Nothing wrong with that, but church is more than that.
So we have to intentionally say "we are here to be the church"? Despite being the church anyways? And it's not "Church" unless you do communion?

What is a Home Church if not a cozy bible study? Which is more cozy to me since we have our bible study at our church fellowship hall...

[Sean]

The 35 plus years of observing and attending intstutional churches has allowed me to see this phenom....

The institutional church has been training relatives to take over the family fortune.

I see it in Pentecost everywhere now.

These pastors from the 70s have handed over a lucrative "business" to their sons and daughters.(through son in law pastors).

It is quite bizarre as how "the Lord" picks family successors to the ministerial throne these days...LOL


I guess "the Lord" is in the business of setting up a "kingdom of priests" for his under-priests.....LOL

[thephnxman]

The 35 plus years of observing and attending institutional churches has allowed me to see this phenom....
The institutional church has been training relatives to take over the family fortune.
I see it in Pentecost everywhere now.
These pastors from the 70s have handed over a lucrative "business" to their sons and daughters.(through son in law pastors).
It is quite bizarre as how "the Lord" picks family successors to the ministerial throne these days...LOL

The "Levites" have made a resurgence!

[shag]

The 35 plus years of observing and attending intstutional churches has allowed me to see this phenom....

The institutional church has been training relatives to take over the family fortune.

I see it in Pentecost everywhere now.

These pastors from the 70s have handed over a lucrative "business" to their sons and daughters.(through son in law pastors).

It is quite bizarre as how "the Lord" picks family successors to the ministerial throne these days...LOL


I guess "the Lord" is in the business of setting up a "kingdom of priests" for his under-priests.....LOL


So you have been where I attend!

[Originalist]

The 35 plus years of observing and attending intstutional churches has allowed me to see this phenom....

The institutional church has been training relatives to take over the family fortune.

I see it in Pentecost everywhere now.

These pastors from the 70s have handed over a lucrative "business" to their sons and daughters.(through son in law pastors).

It is quite bizarre as how "the Lord" picks family successors to the ministerial throne these days...LOL


I guess "the Lord" is in the business of setting up a "kingdom of priests" for his under-priests.....LOL

I know of a church where the pastor's son who was backslid for over ten years suddenly showed up and "prayed back through". Two years later his father retired and handed the church to him passing over dedicated, godly men who had remained faithful.

[Sean]

I know of a church where the pastor's son who was backslid for over ten years suddenly showed up and "prayed back through". Two years later his father retired and handed the church to him passing over dedicated, godly men who had remained faithful.





Dont you DARE second guess the decision of the man of God sir.....LOL

:foottap

[Originalist]

Dont you DARE second guess the decision of the man of God sir.....LOL

:foottap

Tell me about it.

[Sean]

When the saints ELECT me to be a "man of God" then I will tell you about it...LOL

[Originalist]

:happydance:happydanceWhen the saints ELECT me to be a "man of God" then I will tell you about it...LOL

[Originalist]

Originalist this is for you brother!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmizCScGLmY&list=PLOOYq012xdI7XXQjxhymlKX9_9P0uYRUb&index=16

I enjoyed that!

[KeptByTheWord]

A family member of mine who pastors a large UPC church had a daughter who married a man who lived in another country. They were living there working, etc., when all of sudden, the Lord called them both out of the country they were living in back to the father's church to assist pastoring the church (which had never had an assistant pastor), and lo and behold, several years later, the father is now bishop emeritus, and son-in-law is the pastor. Amazing how the Lord works like that.

[Originalist]

A family member of mine who pastors a large UPC church had a daughter who married a man who lived in another country. They were living there working, etc., when all of sudden, the Lord called them both out of the country they were living in back to the father's church to assist pastoring the church (which had never had an assistant pastor), and lo and behold, several years later, the father is now bishop emeritus, and son-in-law is the pastor. Amazing how the Lord works like that.


]:heeheehee:heeheehee

[Esaias]

So we have to intentionally say "we are here to be the church"? Despite being the church anyways? And it's not "Church" unless you do communion?

What is a Home Church if not a cozy bible study? Which is more cozy to me since we have our bible study at our church fellowship hall...

So then you believe all a church is... is a cozy bible study?

Jesus did not come to set up little bible studies. He came to build his ekklesia.

Never heard of a church not intending to be the church. Wait... I think part of the problem is we have different views of what is the church. I understand the church to be a definite local assembly.

Ask your pastor, "since me and three others have bible study together are we a definite church, a definite congregation?"

He'll probably ask "who is the pastor?" lol

My point though is church is more than JUST a small bible study.

[KeptByTheWord]

I think you misunderstood Prax... he was being sarcastic about his bible study being considered a "church".

[KeptByTheWord]

My point though is church is more than JUST a small bible study.

Absolutely, the church is more than a bible study.

However - do you have elders, bishops, deacons, apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors in your local assembly?

[Rudy]

I'm anxious to see how O's pastor responds. Will he accept O being just an attendee?

[Praxeas]

The 35 plus years of observing and attending intstutional churches has allowed me to see this phenom....

The institutional church has been training relatives to take over the family fortune.

I see it in Pentecost everywhere now.

These pastors from the 70s have handed over a lucrative "business" to their sons and daughters.(through son in law pastors).

It is quite bizarre as how "the Lord" picks family successors to the ministerial throne these days...LOL


I guess "the Lord" is in the business of setting up a "kingdom of priests" for his under-priests.....LOL
TO BE FAIR.....

Not everyone of those churches are a Lucrative Business

But I do agree there is a lot of nepotism

[Praxeas]

So then you believe all a church is... is a cozy bible study?

I didn't say that. The CHURCH is the body of believers. Don't confuse CHURCH with a gathering OF the church

Jesus did not come to set up little bible studies. He came to build his ekklesia.
See above

Never heard of a church not intending to be the church. Wait... I think part of the problem is we have different views of what is the church. I understand the church to be a definite local assembly.
I understand it to be the local body of believers whether they are assembled together or not, they are still the Church

Ask your pastor, "since me and three others have bible study together are we a definite church, a definite congregation?"

He'll probably ask "who is the pastor?" lol

My point though is church is more than JUST a small bible study.
So who is the Pastor in the home church? What makes it more than just a bible study?

BTW you didn't answer my questions so you haven't helped me understand what you think a house church is vs a bible study group

[Praxeas]

Why isn't a gathering of the church for bible study a gathering of the church? Why isn't it still an assembly? What is the difference between having "House church" and "House bible study where the church is in attendance"?

[KeptByTheWord]

Why isn't a gathering of the church for bible study a gathering of the church? Why isn't it still an assembly? What is the difference between having "House church" and "House bible study where the church is in attendance"?

House church would be all that is available to the group of believers for fellowship, essentially being their fellowship or gathering of the church.

However, if a larger building holds more believers, then a smaller house bible study would not be their only gathering place.

[Esaias]

I didn't say that. The CHURCH is the body of believers. Don't confuse CHURCH with a gathering OF the church

See above


I understand it to be the local body of believers whether they are assembled together or not, they are still the Church


So who is the Pastor in the home church? What makes it more than just a bible study?

BTW you didn't answer my questions so you haven't helped me understand what you think a house church is vs a bible study group

If you are asking "why isn't a gathering of the church for bible study a gathering of the church", my answer is "a gathering of the church for bible study IS a gathering of the church".

A "bible study group" is a regular group of people who get together to study the bible.
A "house church" is a church that meets primarily in one another's homes. Not sure what the disconnect is here, sorry.

Would YOU agree that a "bible study group" is, in itself, not necessarily A CHURCH?

I understand a CHURCH as a congregation of believers who have been born again (bare minimum number 2 or 3) who are in relationship with one another AS the church. Thus I believe intention is important. I don't see where a church can be a church while not intending to be a church?

The biblical intent and purpose for the church is not JUST to have weekly bible study. Surely you agree with that?

Again, I'm not sure what the issue here is. Might be cause I'm tired. lol

[Esaias]

All I was originally trying to say is, in effect, the church is supposed to do more than JUST have a bible study when it gathers together. Therefore, just because you have a "bible study" doesn't necessarily mean you have a church. If you have born again Christians having a bible study, then you have either certain members of the church having a bible study, or you have the whole church having a bible study. Depends on the number of people (in relation to the number of members total). Make sense?

I must really be tired because I'm just not following the point of discussion here. Forgive me.

[Sean]

House church would be all that is available to the group of believers for fellowship, essentially being their fellowship or gathering of the church.

However, if a larger building holds more believers, then a smaller house bible study would not be their only gathering place.




Amen, church is church. Big Church, little church, its all church....LOL


Everything is ordained of God when we submit to him together in one mind and one accord.

There are some folks that the Lord wants in a small group to be nurtured. They would fizzle out in a large plastic crowd.

[KeptByTheWord]

Just wondering how it went for you yesterday O?

[Originalist]

Just wondering how it went for you yesterday O?

Please help me! Can't talk long! They locked me in a closet! I...oh no...gotta go!

[Originalist]

As you may remember in my original post, I was struggling with two issues...being unable to continue in the classic church setting and the struggles of my family. Of the latter I said....

I feel I must take a season to focus primarily on my family. Somehow a sense of normalcy must be restored to my home. We have been in literal subsistence for almost 4 years now and I cannot accept that this is our lot from now on, nor can I accept the status quo thinking that says, "Just be faithful to church! Don't miss a service for a night job, college or any other reason! Just plop, pray , pray and shout and all will work out".

My conversation with my pastor never got past the latter. I never got to discuss with him my intentions to launch out into the house church movement. Really, I can't even effectively do that until I sell my place, find better income and start back to school. My gut tells me that I will be in the house church movement once we've left this area. I explained to my pastor that just getting this place ready to sell will require several weekends (not all successive). He was gracious and said he understood. He further stated he wants only God's will for us. So there were no real fireworks in our meeting. We'll see how it goes. We'll attend as we can.

[n david]

As you may remember in my original post, I was struggling with two issues...being unable to continue in the classic church setting and the struggles of my family. Of the latter I said....

My conversation with my pastor never got past the latter. I never got to discuss with him my intentions to launch out into the house church movement. Really, I can't even effectively do that until I sell my place, find better income and start back to school. My gut tells me that I will be in the house church movement once we've left this area. I explained to my pastor that just getting this place ready to sell will require several weekends (not all successive). He was gracious and said he understood. He further stated he wants only God's will for us. So there were no real fireworks in our meeting. We'll see how it goes. We'll attend as we can.
:thumbsup

[commonsense]

As you may remember in my original post, I was struggling with two issues...being unable to continue in the classic church setting and the struggles of my family. Of the latter I said....



My conversation with my pastor never got past the latter. I never got to discuss with him my intentions to launch out into the house church movement. Really, I can't even effectively do that until I sell my place, find better income and start back to school. My gut tells me that I will be in the house church movement once we've left this area. I explained to my pastor that just getting this place ready to sell will require several weekends (not all successive). He was gracious and said he understood. He further stated he wants only God's will for us. So there were no real fireworks in our meeting. We'll see how it goes. We'll attend as we can.

I suspect there are many in your situation. Change the city and pastor but the scenario is the same. Prayers are with you in your journey. Keep us all posted. I know there are those who read AFF but never actually participate. Your reflections and observations could impact those you will never meet. :preach

[CC1]

As you may remember in my original post, I was struggling with two issues...being unable to continue in the classic church setting and the struggles of my family. Of the latter I said....



My conversation with my pastor never got past the latter. I never got to discuss with him my intentions to launch out into the house church movement.

Congratulations! It sounds like before long you will never disagree with your pastor again since you will be your own pastor.:happydance

[Sabby]

Originalist,
I'll be in prayer for you, sir. It isn't easy. Don't be hasty in choosing a future church home. Take your time. When you "land", don't commit to anything for at least 6 months...
Home churches are a temporary answer. They can work for those who have been wounded but that comfort zone can wind up becoming the "answer" instead of a "cure" and are no more biblical than a synagogue/church; just smaller and more intimate. They can be as nurturing as "small groups" from a large church or a smaller church assembly.
The most important thing as the spiritual leader in your home is to find balance and peace with yourself, your family and God.
It's ok that you spoke to the pastor. You stand before God in your own conscience. In your mind it was the honorable thing to do. Keep balanced. Look out for the spiritual and emotional welfare of your family and (with the hours you are working) YOURSELF. God be praised, He will see you through this period of time.

[Originalist]

Congratulations! It sounds like before long you will never disagree with your pastor again since you will be your own pastor.:happydance

I don't see that the home church movement is about being your own pastor. The thought never crossed my mind.

[Esaias]

It's clear there is a LOT of misinformation, confusion, prejudice, and downright bigotry concerning the idea of "house church".

Kind of like how people talked (and still do) about those "holy rollers" we all claim as our spiritual forbears...

[Praxeas]

House church would be all that is available to the group of believers for fellowship, essentially being their fellowship or gathering of the church.
Such as?

[Praxeas]

If you are asking "why isn't a gathering of the church for bible study a gathering of the church", my answer is "a gathering of the church for bible study IS a gathering of the church".

A "bible study group" is a regular group of people who get together to study the bible.
A "house church" is a church that meets primarily in one another's homes. Not sure what the disconnect is here, sorry.

Would YOU agree that a "bible study group" is, in itself, not necessarily A CHURCH?

No, not unless they backslid. You still have not answered my original questions

I understand a CHURCH as a congregation of believers who have been born again (bare minimum number 2 or 3) who are in relationship with one another AS the church. Thus I believe intention is important. I don't see where a church can be a church while not intending to be a church?
Are they still a Church even when they are not assembled in a single location on the same day?

I understand a church to be 1 of two things, the local body of believers and the Universal body of believers

They regularly assemble or congregate

The biblical intent and purpose for the church is not JUST to have weekly bible study. Surely you agree with that?
What does a church do? How about just answering my questions now? Im tired too

[Praxeas]

All I was originally trying to say is, in effect, the church is supposed to do more than JUST have a bible study when it gathers together. .
Such as? Last time you said "The Lord's Supper" so I asked a question about that that you did not answer. Remember? Are you saying that if a Church gathers together but does NOT do communion...its not a church?

So EVERY TIME it gathers together it HAS to do communion? Last time I asked you seemed to avoid my questions.

What else? What else distinguishes a bible study from a real bonified church?

[Praxeas]

Is your intention to be the church? Do you eat the Lord's Supper together? Does 1st Corinthians 12-14 take place?

Church is more than a cozy bible study. Nothing wrong with that, but church is more than that.

So we have to intentionally say "we are here to be the church"? Despite being the church anyways? And it's not "Church" unless you do communion?

What is a Home Church if not a cozy bible study? Which is more cozy to me since we have our bible study at our church fellowship hall...
Please fill in the blanks

What distinguishes house church from a gathering of church members for a bible study?

[Esaias]

Please fill in the blanks

What distinguishes house church from a gathering of church members for a bible study?

Does a church HAVE to eat the Lord's Supper every meeting or else it's not a church? No it does not HAVE to.

A house church is a distinct, independent assembly or congregation of born again believers that assembles primarily in one another's homes. A bible study group is a group of people who study the bible together. A house church can obviously do a bible study, and might be classified as a type of bible study group since they study the bible together. But they do more than study the bible together. The members of a particular house church relate to one another as members of the same congregation, meaning the particular house church. Although a "church membership agreement" is neither necessary nor particularly desirable there is an implied yoking together - a koinonia or communion or fellowship - of the members. They intend to be a congregation. They recognise themselves as a definite congregation.

A church has several purposes. One is to worship God as a corporate body. Another is to manifest the presence of God via the charisms (1 Cor 12-14). Another is to supply the spiritual needs of the members, and as much as practical to ensure material needs are met as well (ie nobody starves or winds up homeless, members assist one another as able, etc). Another is to send forth God's Word via preaching to the local community (and beyond if possible). A church is governed by scriptural rules and procedures, and when fully mature will have elders responsible for oversight and teaching, who have arisen from within that local church if at all possible.

If a bible study group of born again Christians does most or all of that, I do not see how they can NOT be a local, distinct church.

I am certain many churches started out as bible study groups. But just because several people get together and study the bible doesn't itself make their group a church anymore than it makes their group a synagogue or a mosque.

[KeptByTheWord]

Very good Esaias. I was just going to answer Prax's question but you have answered essentially what I would have said.

[shag]

So the tongues as a sign to the unbeliever in a house church setting would require the allowment of an unbeliever to be present, right?
Esaias & Kept...thoughts?


1 Corinthians 14:23

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?



22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

[Originalist]

So the tongues as a sign to the unbeliever in a house church setting would require the allowment of an unbeliever to be present, right?
Esaias & Kept...thoughts?


1 Corinthians 14:23

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?



22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Paul wrote that to Christrians meeting in homes.

[Aquila]

lol....lots of skin. Muslims are right. I talk to a lot of Muslims and one of their biggest criticisms of Christians if we show a lot of skin

I didn't see a "lots of skin". I saw normal folks gathered to worship Jesus.

Titus 1:15 English Standard Version (ESV)
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Is it possible that if we can't tolerate someone wearing shorts... our minds have been perverted?

[Aquila]

Whats the difference between that and myself and 3 other guys having prayer and bible study?

To the house church Christian... a gathering can be two or more, gathered in His name.

[Aquila]

How is this "Jim Jones"?

Simple church isn't "Jim Jones". House church Christians are a rather liberated bunch. Try to pull a "Jim Jones"... they'll probably leave in the middle of the discussion time. Or... they'll choose not to come back.

[Aquila]

I am certainly not against meeting in a larger building, if need be. But one thing needs to change. People need to be taught that the building is not the church. They are the church. We are the church. We are part of the body of Christ, and we are his extended hands and feet wherever we go. We are the temple of God.

1 Cor. 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


:thumbsup

A building is just a building. A house is just a house. We are the Church... no matter where we choose to gather.

[Aquila]

With all due respect bro, I do not agree.

Look at the pictures of the home church, there is no difference between the "saved" and lost, wow what confusion. The video reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary.

Listen bro, I have been in your shoes before, I had old men, preachers telling me to leave, telling me to "come to their church and we'll set you up" another said, "if you come, You can be our youth leader" another said "I will set you up as the new pastor." but instead thankfully I had Real men with sound Voices that helped me my Pastor and (Jesus Himself), I waited observed Prayed much, and prayed again, fasted, watched, plead for direction from God, and the word that kept coming was spoken by an elderly woman in the church, she said, "God likes stickers." We were broke, I was young had a baby, wife and a mortgage, and had been laid off work for 8 months. We hung in there and God blessed us, because of it, its been over a decade later and Have a great job and my wife owns her own business. What we did was dig our heels in and said whatever happens Hell or High water we aint leaving! We became Helps. We worked the prisons, Preached to hundreds of inmates over the years, prayed em through, Baptized em in Jesus name! Taught many home bible studies through the years, saw them come into the church on a pew paying tithe, worshiping God, And because we were about God's business, he was about ours.

If you notice how _______ was, sounding so soft so reserved so gentle. Then when I posted he became a different person Abhorring the words I had written. Very super spiritual, Advanced in his learning, as to look down from his keyboard at us petty Tithe payers. Please, you haven't seen a raw spirit, so mean with vehement anger until you appose a compromiser. Who couldn't wait on God's timing for him to be sent out into the ministry. And now he looks down on those poor boys that are getting older, waiting serving the Pastor, and remaining on being faithful and waiting on tables, washing the hands of the Man of God pouring, and pouring, just like Elisha did to Elijah. Sad souls 'Look at how awesome I am now! Look at how great we are' 'Look how free we are' not a quote but the spirit in which he writes speaks.

There are many churches in OHIO near Dayton, Elder C. Craig, Elder T. Meade, Elder R. Davis, Elder D. Meade,, Elder S. Kerr, Elder J. Holman, Elder G. Adkins,

These men are fair, if any have said that God told them to leave any of these churches, would speak volumes on what kind of Christian they claim to be.

MHO, :begging
J.A. Perez

I'd like to add two among the list of decent pastors in the Dayton area. Pastor Bradley Smith and Pastor Kenneth Dillingham.

[Aquila]

There's is no command to have a building to bring a tithe of money to.

House churches makes you keep up on your house cleaning--Oh my!!!

LOL

[Aquila]

Oh I'm sorry we have normal people in our church. I guess the house churches have perfect people.

I must have been missing out all these years. My church is more like a Hospital where some are in recovery and some are in serious condition. We have bills over head sorry to say, but we do have a clean place to facilitate healing in a unpolluted atmosphere. Our top Physician has a 100% success record. His name is Jesus.

Mark 2:7
But when Jesus Heard that, he said unto them, they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. but go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

:thumbsup ,
J.A. Perez

That's a very good analogy. A functional traditional church is indeed like a hospital. However, house churches are... churches. A gathering of spiritual family interested in providing healing, edification, grace, and equipping the saints to launch out and open their homes to establish new house churches. Remember, the house church movement grows by establishing house churches... not by gathering members. So the goal is... to train house church leaders.

[shag]

I was speaking with my pastor the other day when he mention the year of Jubilee, and I said did you know they didn't tithe during the year of Jubilee, and he replied no I didnt but if we went without tithing the lights would get shut off because the offerings are so low

I left it alone...

[Aquila]

Whats the difference between that and myself and 3 other guys having prayer and bible study?

Originally, when the church gathered, they sang a few songs, studied the Scriptures, discussed Christian principles and shared about who Jesus is. They called sinners to repentance and baptized people. No building or large group necessary.

[Aquila]

I know of a church where the pastor's son who was backslid for over ten years suddenly showed up and "prayed back through". Two years later his father retired and handed the church to him passing over dedicated, godly men who had remained faithful.

That's a terrible shame.

[Aquila]

I didn't say that. The CHURCH is the body of believers. Don't confuse CHURCH with a gathering OF the church

See above


I understand it to be the local body of believers whether they are assembled together or not, they are still the Church


So who is the Pastor in the home church? What makes it more than just a bible study?

BTW you didn't answer my questions so you haven't helped me understand what you think a house church is vs a bible study group

In our house churches we have only have "elders". An elder may function in any of the five fold ministries as their calling and gifts allow them. It's not uncommon for a house church to have "pastors". These are men who function much like spiritual mentors, not CEOs. They are the elders, the spiritual fathers, of the group. The group is more like a family than members of an organization.

[Aquila]

Why isn't a gathering of the church for bible study a gathering of the church? Why isn't it still an assembly? What is the difference between having "House church" and "House bible study where the church is in attendance"?

House churches are different from home Bible studies.

Home Bible Studies are subject to the official Pastor of the institutional church body. He normally sets the agenda for those who lead these Bible studies and can even set the curriculum taught. In a home Bible study deeper issues relating to sin and counsel are normally referred to the pastor to counsel in his office. Home bible studies are also not authorized to receive and direct funds as the group desires. Rather all funds received are marked and turned into the institutional body.

House churches are autonomous. They are led by the elders in attendance. Yes, they may belong to a network of house churches, but the elders of a given gathering sets the tone and agenda for the gathering. The elders of a given gathering establishes the curriculum and topics to study as the Spirit leads and needs are revealed within the body gathered. Deep issues relating to sin often come up before the group if a spirit of confession begins moving in the group. The group encourages, gives insight, prays for, and forgives the sinning party if they are remorseful. If additional counsel is needed, the elders are available like spiritual fathers picking up a struggling son or daughter. All funds collected by the house church are directed as the house church desires. We have given regular donations to the Dayton Gospel Mission, St. Vincent de Paul homeless shelter, and a charity called, Dressed for Success which caters to helping low income people get a wardrobe fitting for the workplace. We've also helped to fund several missions trips to India. A sister's car once broke down. She poured out her stress and fears in prayer time and a brother offered her one of his cars to use. The rest of us took up an offering to help her get it fixed. Another man had need of a baby sitter, we had two sisters volunteer to help... free of charge for 10 days to give him a chance to find a permanent sitter.

House churches also conduct water baptisms and partakes in the Lord's Supper as the individual body chooses. Most home Bible study groups leave these functions to be facilitated by the institutional pastor. House churches also conduct spiritual discipline as needed. Most home Bible study groups would leave matters of spiritual discipline to the institutional Pastor .

So, house churches are a little different than home Bible study groups.

[Aquila]

All I was originally trying to say is, in effect, the church is supposed to do more than JUST have a bible study when it gathers together. Therefore, just because you have a "bible study" doesn't necessarily mean you have a church. If you have born again Christians having a bible study, then you have either certain members of the church having a bible study, or you have the whole church having a bible study. Depends on the number of people (in relation to the number of members total). Make sense?

I must really be tired because I'm just not following the point of discussion here. Forgive me.

If you have a dynamite Bible study service in an institutional church, but a dear sister's car is broken down and she can't afford to have it fixed... and she leaves without her need met... was it really a successful "church" gathering?

The institutional church might typically pray for her... but the miracle of Jesus meeting the need as the Spirit leads through His own body is often absent.

[Aquila]

Originalist,
I'll be in prayer for you, sir. It isn't easy. Don't be hasty in choosing a future church home. Take your time. When you "land", don't commit to anything for at least 6 months...
Home churches are a temporary answer. They can work for those who have been wounded but that comfort zone can wind up becoming the "answer" instead of a "cure" and are no more biblical than a synagogue/church; just smaller and more intimate. They can be as nurturing as "small groups" from a large church or a smaller church assembly.
The most important thing as the spiritual leader in your home is to find balance and peace with yourself, your family and God.
It's ok that you spoke to the pastor. You stand before God in your own conscience. In your mind it was the honorable thing to do. Keep balanced. Look out for the spiritual and emotional welfare of your family and (with the hours you are working) YOURSELF. God be praised, He will see you through this period of time.

Excellent post with much wisdom. I felt the Holy Spirit as I read it.

[Aquila]

I don't see that the home church movement is about being your own pastor. The thought never crossed my mind.

Every Christian will need an elder to lean on at some point. Always keep a connection with a seasoned man of God that you trust and respects the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life.

[Aquila]

It's clear there is a LOT of misinformation, confusion, prejudice, and downright bigotry concerning the idea of "house church".

Kind of like how people talked (and still do) about those "holy rollers" we all claim as our spiritual forbears...

It's a novel idea here in the West. But if you tallied up all the Christians gathering throughout the world... most meet in simple gatherings in homes, barns, or other informal locations. Most are not "organized" around a religion or organization. Most gatherings are not extremely big (so as to not invite persecution from authorities). We see a LOT of house churches in India and China. You also hear of them in the Middle East. They keep a very low profile there. You only hear about them if a pastor is arrested and sentenced to death for being an apostate if he had converted from Islam.

[Aquila]

Such as? Last time you said "The Lord's Supper" so I asked a question about that that you did not answer. Remember? Are you saying that if a Church gathers together but does NOT do communion...its not a church?

So EVERY TIME it gathers together it HAS to do communion? Last time I asked you seemed to avoid my questions.

What else? What else distinguishes a bible study from a real bonified church?

It isn't uncommon for house churches to predicate their being a house church upon their partaking in the Lord's Supper together. Many house churches do have the Lord's Supper every time they meet. Some only once a week, some once a month, some once a year. It's really up to the individual house church to decide.

[Aquila]

So the tongues as a sign to the unbeliever in a house church setting would require the allowment of an unbeliever to be present, right?
Esaias & Kept...thoughts?


1 Corinthians 14:23

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?



22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Every spiritual gift can be found in Spirit filled house churches. In fact, some house churches specialize in helping the saints of God perfect the use of each Spiritual gift as the Spirit leads.

[Aquila]

I was speaking with my pastor the other day when he mention the year of Jubilee, and I said did you know they didn't tithe during the year of Jubilee, and he replied no I didnt but if we went without tithing the lights would get shut off because the offerings are so low

I left it alone...

Where's his faith?

[Aquila]

So, biblically speaking... How many believers must be gathered together in a building, home, barn, catacomb, or graveyard for it to be a "church gathering"???

[Jermyn Davidson]

So, biblically speaking... How many believers must be gathered together in a building, home, barn, catacomb, or graveyard for it to be a "church gathering"???

2 or 3

[Aquila]

2 or 3

Amen. As it is written,

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[Praxeas]

So the tongues as a sign to the unbeliever in a house church setting would require the allowment of an unbeliever to be present, right?
Esaias & Kept...thoughts?


1 Corinthians 14:23

23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?



22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
Notice it says when THE church comes together. They were already "the church".. Whether assembled or not. Nothing says in order to BE a church they have to all be located in the same location.

They are THE church always whether gathered or not.

[Praxeas]

Are camp meetings considered "Church"?

[Praxeas]

It isn't uncommon for house churches to predicate their being a house church upon their partaking in the Lord's Supper together. Many house churches do have the Lord's Supper every time they meet. Some only once a week, some once a month, some once a year. It's really up to the individual house church to decide.

Aren't they still a church when not gathered?

[Esaias]

Who said a church isn't a church when they aren't gathered? Although if they NEVER gathered I wouldn't say they were a church.

[commonsense]

TO BE FAIR.....

Not everyone of those churches are a Lucrative Business

But I do agree there is a lot of nepotism


Yes, in the last 20 yrs many names of pastors passing their church to son or son in law_______passing the wealth, the business...whatever. I could give names but that would not be proper.
A relative pointed out that many of these churches are not empires....just passed on the to the son; as in, no one else would be applying for the vacancy :violin

[FlamingZword]

Nepotism is shameful in the church, at least the Catholic Church does not allow nepotism.

[Jito463]

Nepotism is shameful in the church, at least the Catholic Church does not allow nepotism.

If only they didn't get so much else wrong....but I supposed I'm just :beatdeadhorse

[Aquila]

Are camp meetings considered "Church"?

I believe camp meetings are church gatherings. The church attends camp meetings.

[Aquila]

Aren't they still a church when not gathered?

Yes.

[Aquila]

Some people prefer mega churches. Some people prefer large churches. Some people small neighborhood churches. Some people prefer house churches. And there are many different reasons why different people prefer the kind of church gathering they prefer.

I prefer house churches for many different reasons. I do think they are more biblical, but that doesn't mean that institutional churches aren't biblical at all. I believe that they are more intimate and that the Spirit flows more freely. But that's my experience.

God truly moves in all of these formats. People are saved and the Kingdom does advance.

However, as time passes, I believe that more and more institutional churches will seriously struggle. Most will grow cold.

[UnTraditional]

The collective Body of Christ is the Church. The type and size of fellowships differ, but the believers are the Church.

[navygoat1998]

Some people prefer mega churches. Some people prefer large churches. Some people small neighborhood churches. Some people prefer house churches. And there are many different reasons why different people prefer the kind of church gathering they prefer.

I prefer house churches for many different reasons. I do think they are more biblical, but that doesn't mean that institutional churches aren't biblical at all. I believe that they are more intimate and that the Spirit flows more freely. But that's my experience.

God truly moves in all of these formats. People are saved and the Kingdom does advance.

However, as time passes, I believe that more and more institutional churches will seriously struggle. Most will grow cold.

I just prefer to be where the presence of the Lord is. I don't care if we meet in a large building or the backseat of my truck. :happydance

[CC1]

Some people prefer mega churches. Some people prefer large churches. Some people small neighborhood churches. Some people prefer house churches. And there are many different reasons why different people prefer the kind of church gathering they prefer.

I prefer house churches for many different reasons. I do think they are more biblical, but that doesn't mean that institutional churches aren't biblical at all. I believe that they are more intimate and that the Spirit flows more freely. But that's my experience.

God truly moves in all of these formats. People are saved and the Kingdom does advance.

However, as time passes, I believe that more and more institutional churches will seriously struggle. Most will grow cold.

A good perspective on things!

[Aquila]

I just prefer to be where the presence of the Lord is. I don't care if we meet in a large building or the backseat of my truck. :happydance

:happydance

[KeptByTheWord]

The collective Body of Christ is the Church. The type and size of fellowships differ, but the believers are the Church.

Amen! So.... are you comfortable with house churches being part of the collective body of Christ?

[Esphes45]

Tithes? Offerings? Light bills? Overhead? It's all baggage we bring on ourselves by our insistence on clinging to a man made system.


:thumbsup

[Esphes45]

As you may remember in my original post, I was struggling with two issues...being unable to continue in the classic church setting and the struggles of my family. Of the latter I said....



My conversation with my pastor never got past the latter. I never got to discuss with him my intentions to launch out into the house church movement. Really, I can't even effectively do that until I sell my place, find better income and start back to school. My gut tells me that I will be in the house church movement once we've left this area. I explained to my pastor that just getting this place ready to sell will require several weekends (not all successive). He was gracious and said he understood. He further stated he wants only God's will for us. So there were no real fireworks in our meeting. We'll see how it goes. We'll attend as we can.

Sounds like a good man.

[Esphes45]

The collective Body of Christ is the Church. The type and size of fellowships differ, but the believers are the Church.

I agree. Prax was correct from the beginning also. Where 2 or 3 is what I say.

All this talk about Church but people forget about

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[Jason B]

Start a work. Preach to the members of your family. You build it they will come.

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.

The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.

Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.

I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.

If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.

I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.

In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.

What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.

[thephnxman]

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.
The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.
Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.
I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.
If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.
I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.
In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.
What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.

Perhaps all that is needed is for a man to be willing to don sack clothe and ashes, and began
preaching in the wilderness. If I am not mistaken, the Holy Spirit will draw men to the truth;
but beware, with many an inspiration there has also come a persecution!

[KeptByTheWord]

Perhaps all that is needed is for a man to be willing to don sack clothe and ashes, and began
preaching in the wilderness. If I am not mistaken, the Holy Spirit will draw men to the truth;
but beware, with many an inspiration there has also come a persecution!

Which is just how I was going to respond to Jason's teaching. You can't just begin to be a minister by wanting to - there has to be a call from the Lord, and inherently, an understanding that with the gospel comes a cost, a great cost to personal goals, dreams, and lifestyle. We don't see any of the apostles living in fine homes, with the finest of clothing or servants or other outlandish lifestyles, but instead, we see them living from house to house, living and dying for their Lord.

True ministry does not seek to receive its glory and honor from earthly sources, but from heavenly places in Christ Jesus. It does not seek fame, honor, glory, power, and dominion here on earth. It seeks Christ, and Christ crucified.

If you would truly be in servant leadership, there will be a cost. Most are not willing to pay that cost, and instead seek to build churches that house the masses who likewise are not willing to seek after the true cross of Christ.

[Rudy]

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.

The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.

Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.

I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.

If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.

I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.

In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.

What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.

I like your post. In small communities there is very limited options, at times none. It is wise to be patient but with limited options one may have to relocate. If called to ministry one has the option {God willing} of starting a work. As for myself I don't have that option.

These days money seems to be the focus. With all the staff, programs, paying musicians, special offerings, etc is a problem for some. If one does not tithe their money you are simply not wanted if they can't persuade you.
I was no longer welcomed in 2 churches over the tithing issue. One Pastor told me twice he had no problem with it, that didn't last long. I was giving 7-8 % at the last church.

I think we are starved for a display of God's power vs programs. So much illness in the body. Our Lord's healing ministry showed the Father's will on this earth.

Something is out of focus, we are not seeing something.

[Aquila]

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.

The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.

Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.

I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.

If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.

I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.

In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.

What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.

Not bad advice.

[Aquila]

These days money seems to be the focus. With all the staff, programs, paying musicians, special offerings, etc is a problem for some. If one does not tithe their money you are simply not wanted if they can't persuade you.
I was no longer welcomed in 2 churches over the tithing issue. One Pastor told me twice he had no problem with it, that didn't last long. I was giving 7-8 % at the last church.

I think we are starved for a display of God's power vs programs. So much illness in the body. Our Lord's healing ministry showed the Father's will on this earth.

Something is out of focus, we are not seeing something.

Problems cited in this post:

1.) Money
2.) Staff
3.) Programs
4.) Musician Pay
5.) Special Offerings
6.) Tithing vs. Not Tithing

Almost all of these problems are absent in house churches.


Nice article:

How to Start a House Church
http://www.smallgroups.com/articles/2008/how-to-start-house-church.html

[n david]

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.

The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.

Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.

I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.

If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.

I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.

In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.

What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.
I agree with most of the post, with exception to the "seeker sensitive" bit.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

Another interesting link:


How to Start a Home Church
http://www.pocketsermons.org/Articles/HomeChurch.shtml

[Aquila]

One of my favorite books on the topic:

Starting a House Church
http://www.amazon.com/Starting-House-Church-Larry-Kreider/dp/0800796799

I'd advise also reading this book, it has helped me and others tremendously:

Making Small Groups Work
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Small-Groups-Work-Leader/dp/0310250285/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421429902&sr=1-1&keywords=%22Making+Small+Groups+Work%22+Cloud&pebp=1421429907507&peasin=310250285

[Aquila]

Oh... interesting factoid about "house churches"...

Many elders/pastors find themselves suffering from burn out. Should an elder hosting a house church begin to feel burn out, due to multiple eldership, that elder can turn the primary management of the body over to another one of the serving elder(s). The micro-church can even relocate meetings to another home for a season.

[navygoat1998]

Which is just how I was going to respond to Jason's teaching. You can't just begin to be a minister by wanting to - there has to be a call from the Lord, and inherently, an understanding that with the gospel comes a cost, a great cost to personal goals, dreams, and lifestyle. We don't see any of the apostles living in fine homes, with the finest of clothing or servants or other outlandish lifestyles, but instead, we see them living from house to house, living and dying for their Lord.

True ministry does not seek to receive its glory and honor from earthly sources, but from heavenly places in Christ Jesus. It does not seek fame, honor, glory, power, and dominion here on earth. It seeks Christ, and Christ crucified.

If you would truly be in servant leadership, there will be a cost. Most are not willing to pay that cost, and instead seek to build churches that house the masses who likewise are not willing to seek after the true cross of Christ.

Paul said the the call of God will bring trouble,hardship,persecution,famine,nakedness,dang er,and the sword, of course this is very similar to the difficulties that Paul himself faced during his apostolic ministry. Paul never promised us our "Best life now".

The Gospel will cost us everything on this earth but glorification waits for those who run the race unto the finish.

[Jason B]

I agree with most of the post, with exception to the "seeker sensitive" bit.

:thumbsup

The comment on the seeker churches was in regard to their watered down gospel and willingness to survey people to see what they want preached, along with all the pomp that comes with an entertainment driven church. Hence the reference to the crowd of John 6. It wasn't an endorsement. ;)

[Jason B]

Perhaps this works in some cases, but not all. Starting a church is hard work, challenging, and can be immensely discouraging.

The difficulty is really compounded when the focus of your church is on spiritual things. To start with a few people and a Bible is tough in modern day America, where there are so many options for the people. Want a church with a coffee bar and day care? Go here. Want a church with rock n roll music, stage lighting, and a relaxed atmosphere?Go there. Ministries of every kind(singles, married, children's, youth, seniors, divorced, recovering addicts, men's, women's, etc)? The church down the street. Want to go to church to rodeo and take roping lessons? The Cowboy church. Etc, etc.
Now I'm not saying those things are all bad (I'm not sure any of them are, but that another conversation) but what I'm saying is when you start a church with just you and your family or a very small group of people its not easy. Because most people are not looking for a church that focuses on glorifying God, living a godly life, and preaching His Word.

Then for the ones who are (like yourself, Michael the Disciple, and others) it is a difficult challenge to find those churches. Can God bring people together? Absolutely. But I'm making the point its not just "do it and they will come.". I've lived it the last two years and its up and down, excitement/optimism mixed with lots of disappointment and discouragement.

I've had people say "I believe in what you're doing here" and within a month be attending a large church. In theory churches shouldn't be in competition, but in reality many are.

If someone decides to leave, I don't try to change their mind. Don't threaten them with hell, don't even question their Christianity. I don't even get mad or bitter. There's no sense in it. And I know what its like to leave only to be threatened with doom from a pastor or even threatened on a personal level.

I think if you start a work a have musical talent that will help a lot. If not it will be just another thing your church doesn't have that many others do.

In reality if you want to start a church start a seeker sensitive church with 20 or 30 people, a music team already in place, and kick off your church with a "Grand Opening" then preach messages that appeal to the multitudes who come only for the fishes and loaves, your chances of rapid growth and success are pretty good.

What I'm saying is I see this "just start a church" council on AFF all the time, and I'm not sure that it is wise or helpful. I'd say rather be patient as you look for a church that values what you value. And resist the temptation to give up on finding a church (or home fellowship) because we are not called to isolation but fellowship. Also don't get so picky on doctrine that no church fits your criteria. If you study the scriptures and form your own opinions then you are not likely to find a church that lines up with you 100%. Maybe not even 90%. But figure out what is essential and fellowship the difference.

One thing I left out. If you start small be prepared to be bi-vocational. I work a full time job that eats up my week Monday-Saturday. The benefit us you get to mingle with people and witness as God opens the door. The bad is you get physically and mentally exhausted, and sometimes its hard to prepare and/or preach as you would otherwise. I'm not saying God won't bless you or be sufficient in your insufficiency but there's something to be said for preparation (unless you have a church that just wants to shout so you can use different texts each week to preach the same message filled with plenty of red meat catchphrases to pander to your audience). God does call preachers to rightly divide the Word. Too many preachers shout for 25 minutes and don't say anything.

[Abiding Now]

Those who can...do. Those that can't...talk. :D

[shag]

Good to see you posting on this Jason...always enjoy reading your input

[KeptByTheWord]

Jason - I would like to say one more thing - I always enjoy your posts, and know your sincere heart that has been expressed through your posts. I believe that you are doing as much as you can to encourage and build up the kingdom of the Lord. And you are right - it is not for just anyone to become a minister after the NT sort - but we need more of them! Praying that the Lord will bless and mightily encourage the ministry He has called you to!

[Steve Epley]

Two prodigals in the Bible the son in the hog pen and the hog in the house. Praise The Lord somebody.:thumbsup

[Esaias]

Two prodigals in the Bible the son in the hog pen and the hog in the house. Praise The Lord somebody.:thumbsup

That'll preach!


:hanky :hanky

[Jason B]

Good to see you posting on this Jason...always enjoy reading your input

Thank you Shag. Likewise.

[Jason B]

Jason - I would like to say one more thing - I always enjoy your posts, and know your sincere heart that has been expressed through your posts. I believe that you are doing as much as you can to encourage and build up the kingdom of the Lord. And you are right - it is not for just anyone to become a minister after the NT sort - but we need more of them! Praying that the Lord will bless and mightily encourage the ministry He has called you to!

Thank you KBTW. I appreciate your kindness.

[Aquila]

Do we have an example of the modern day "sermon" in Scripture? I know that the model of the modern "sermon" is largely based on techniques illustrated in Aristotelian Rhetoric.

[ApostolicKitty]

Anyway, it's obvious all those who attend institutional church will say "stay, don't leave, even it kills your walk with God and your family life." And those who have moved on with God will say "step into the water and trust God."

Decided to peak into the forum today and found this thread. Wasn't going to say anything, but then I read this. Well said, Esaias. God has taught me how to swim well in these waters. I couldn't imagine returning to the IC.

[Esaias]

Decided to peak into the forum today and found this thread. Wasn't going to say anything, but then I read this. Well said, Esaias. God has taught me how to swim well in these waters. I couldn't imagine returning to the IC.

Hey! Where ya been? Hope all is well with you and yours.

[ApostolicKitty]

Hey! Where ya been? Hope all is well with you and yours.

I meant to say "peek" -- not "peak". I have not been on mountain peaks. I can tell you that. Haha

I have been absent from forums, present on Facebook. Last time I came here I found myself allowing people to get under my skin, so I had to leave and adjust myself. Of course that was over a year and a half ago....no, it didn't take that long. LOL Didn't feel like posting on a forum till today. My job has a lot of down time, so I may come back more...

This is a most interesting conversation to read. It's nice to see more house church people. Personally, I have found more time to be able to live for God when I am not serving a 501(c)(3) church and its programs. However, I also know others who need the coccoon of that atmosphere and its routine or they would fall away. I used to find mostly a service of milk in those places, so I do wonder how well they are fed if they are not going home and feasting on the word for themselves.

One thing for certain, as times get tougher in these last days, it is going to be more difficult for all of us to live on this planet if we do not keep our focus on Jesus.

[navygoat1998]

One thing for certain, as times get tougher in these last days, it is going to be more difficult for all of us to live on this planet if we do not keep our focus on Jesus.

:thumbsup

[CC1]

Do we have an example of the modern day "sermon" in Scripture? I know that the model of the modern "sermon" is largely based on techniques illustrated in Aristotelian Rhetoric.

I would say you would be hard pressed to find a modern old time Pentecostal sermon that fits in the mold of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

As I have stated before my opinion is that most old time Pentecostal preachers mold themselves more after Old Testament Judges and Prophets.

[aegsm76]

Do we have an example of the modern day "sermon" in Scripture? I know that the model of the modern "sermon" is largely based on techniques illustrated in Aristotelian Rhetoric.

What techniques were used in Acts, which I have always looked as being full of "sermons"?

[Esaias]

What is a sermon? Technically, it is a message. In that sense, sermons are found throughout scripture.

What is interesting is that not only are "messages" in the new testament church, but so is DIALOGUE, which was also common in synagogue settings as well as Greek symposium settings, but which is absent from the institutional settings of today.

[mizpeh]

What is a sermon? Technically, it is a message. In that sense, sermons are found throughout scripture.

What is interesting is that not only are "messages" in the new testament church, but so is DIALOGUE, which was also common in synagogue settings as well as Greek symposium settings, but which is absent from the institutional settings of today.I would LOVE dialogue.

I listen to Woodland Hills Church in Minnesota often. Greg Boyd's the pastor. They set up times for questions and answer on a regular basis where people text questions or write them down on paper. I think the church is around 3000 souls.

http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/summer-qa

[shazeep]

Mennonites do it every service! Our current def of "pastor"--OT sermons and all--is most likely the one provided to us by the RCC.

[Jito463]

Our pastor will often open up the floor for questions after his Bible studies, though he does prefer to finish his thoughts first. Nevertheless, he will respond to pertinent questions during the study (which occasionally...or more than occasionally, leads to branching avenues that distract from the given topic, heh).

[thephnxman]

Our pastor will often open up the floor for questions after his Bible studies, though he does prefer to finish his thoughts first. Nevertheless, he will respond to pertinent questions during the study (which occasionally...or more than occasionally, leads to branching avenues that distract from the given topic, heh).

Personally, I felt that questions are better left for the end of a study. Many questions that
would be asked are more often than not answered in the study!