Obey them that have the rule over you

[KeptByTheWord]

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

[Originalist]

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

[shazeep]

:lol

[Pressing-On]

It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

I'm sure you are being factious.

However, and seriously, the passage does not mean to follow leadership blindly.

"Considering" in the Greek means, "to look at attentively, to consider well, to observe accurately." :thumbsup

No one is given carte blanche with the Gospel. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.

[shazeep]

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?in the context that when it was written it was natch assumed that your society's and nation's leaders would be men of faith. this is not talking about "church" imo.

[Timmy]

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheehee

[shazeep]

...the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.here we go :lol

granted, in context. The other side of that coin is that if you are truly seeking God--and not vanity--then it is ultimately you seeking your own salvation. You can trust that the Spirit will guide you, even through painful lessons in vanity, which early ones often are. It is difficult to learn to see the unseen; and an argument can be made that "in your own eyes" is the only way you can come to understand something, especially when it is learning to see with different eyes. You are prolly going to pretty much follow the Wanderings in the Sinai, no matter what; and if you are stalled somewhere on that path you might at least consider whether you are being led to a new Right Pastor, imo, but the point is people are going to differ on points, this is how they--hopefully--grow.

[shazeep]

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheeheehmm, i think this misrepresents a pastor's role...but then, i would! :D

[KeptByTheWord]

It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

I know you meant this with humor... but seriously... would you assume then it is talking about a pastor's role? What about the other 5-fold ministries?

[KeptByTheWord]

in the context that when it was written it was natch assumed that your society's and nation's leaders would be men of faith. this is not talking about "church" imo.

So you are thinking this passage has more to do with political government rather than church government?

[KeptByTheWord]

I'm sure you are being factious.

However, and seriously, the passage does not mean to follow leadership blindly.

"Considering" in the Greek means, "to look at attentively, to consider well, to observe accurately." :thumbsup

No one is given carte blanche with the Gospel. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.

Amen to all, especially to the bolded. :)

[KeptByTheWord]

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheehee

So... is it safe to assume you think this passage is referencing "pastors"? Not that it is safe to assume anything about what you post, lol!

[thephnxman]

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


"Remember them which have the rule over you (preceded you), have spoken unto you the
word of God...Obey them that have the rule over you (preceded you) , and submit yourselves..."

Who are they that "have the rule" (preceded)? Those who adhere to a "one-man" rule in
the Church will say the "pastor". But they ignore the role of the Ministry and the Church.

[shazeep]

So you are thinking this passage has more to do with political government rather than church government?well, that seems to depend upon who rules over you, yes? Which can actually get quite sticky :lol but the image of a pastor's "ruling" does not agree with my understanding of the relationship, no. It implies an earthly mediator.

[Timmy]

So... is it safe to assume you think this passage is referencing "pastors"? Not that it is safe to assume anything about what you post, lol!

No idea . Lol

[KeptByTheWord]

Well, clarifying who the "them" is is a good place to start, next clarifying what "rule over" means as well.

[thephnxman]

Well, clarifying who the "them" is is a good place to start, next clarifying what "rule over" means as well.

"THEM" are they who have "...spoken unto you the word of God...". It is safe to assume
that it could be the Ministry or someone in the Church who performed "...the work of
the ministry". Paul declared, "I have begotten you through the gospel."

"RULE OVER" means those who have gone before, who has preceded you: who
have been saved before you and are mature in the faith and know how to perform
"...the work of the ministry".

[KeptByTheWord]

"THEM" are they who have "...spoken unto you the word of God...". It is safe to assume
that it could be the Ministry or someone in the Church who performed "...the work of
the ministry". Paul declared, "I have begotten you through the gospel."

"RULE OVER" means those who have gone before, who has preceded you: who
have been saved before you and are mature in the faith and know how to perform
"...the work of the ministry".

Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out.

Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.

Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.

Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.

Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you


I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.

[ILG]

It's amazing how twisted some of the scriptures have gotten based on tradition.

[thephnxman]

Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out.
Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.
Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.
Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.
Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you

I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.

We are to obey the word that comes through the anointing, whether by the Ministry
or the church; for therein lies the power. Now this is worth repeating: Power and
authority is manifest in direct proportion to the Ministry's or individual's OBEDIENCE
to the Word.

[Esaias]

Paul was ready to offer a "proof of Christ speaking" in him to the Corinthians who doubted his authority and wisdom. He didn't offer denominational "credentials" as proof, though. Phoenix is right, the power is in the Word. Even if it comes from the mouths of babes and sucklings...

[Praxeas]

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu

[Sean]

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu



Lol.....good one!!!

[good samaritan]

I am glad to have pastors in my life. The labels and the way we use terms may be a little different, but I am glad that I can submit myself to another. If someone is doing something to jeapordize the soul of you are your family they shouldn't be in your life, but if they love and care about you then probably you should appreciate the influence they have. We live in a generation of rebels who don't want anyone telling them what they should do.

I wish there was a poll done for those who submitted to God fearing leadership and those who think that their salvation is personal and everyone else should stay out. Which do you think would be the most prosperous in their life? We all are following someone's influence in our life so we might as well get use to the fact that we don't have complete control. Follow good leaders and avoid the wolves in sheeps clothing.

P.S. I think it is safe to go by KJV translation (using a little common sense) and you don't have to weaken it down any. Hopefully with your children at home obey is not such a bad word.

[good samaritan]

I believe that most who pastor a church or elders wichever you call it know that a title and a position doesn't get you very far with people. Trust is earned. When people learn to trust that you care for them and want only to help them in their relationship with God then they will decide the leaders they allow in their life. If you are serving God you will have Godly influence in your life(I call them pastors)!!!! When a person is hungry for God they look for any place they can possibly glean from.

[KeptByTheWord]

It's amazing how twisted some of the scriptures have gotten based on tradition.

Yes, really true!

[KeptByTheWord]

We are to obey the word that comes through the anointing, whether by the Ministry
or the church; for therein lies the power. Now this is worth repeating:

Power and authority is manifest in direct proportion to the Ministry's or individual's OBEDIENCE to the Word.

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?

Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?

How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

[KeptByTheWord]

Paul was ready to offer a "proof of Christ speaking" in him to the Corinthians who doubted his authority and wisdom. He didn't offer denominational "credentials" as proof, though. Phoenix is right, the power is in the Word. Even if it comes from the mouths of babes and sucklings...

1 Cor. 2:4 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of men's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power, that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Powerful stuff right there!

[KeptByTheWord]

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu

Thanks for your wooly ...oops... worthy contribution to this subject Prax ;) ... lol!

[good samaritan]

I have heard scholars say that most today use only enough hebrew and greek to get into trouble with their interpretations. I use a strong sometimes but If it changes the meaning based upon my study then I will stick with what the Bible says. It makes no sense to me why we think interpretations are getting more reliable. As time goes further and culture becomes more foreign then I believe that the KJV translation is more reliable then anyone on this forum. In a hundred years we will have people saying the words mean something different then what we believe now. All of my family have depended ancestory have relied on the KJV translation and I trust it.

[Esaias]

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?

Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?

How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

[KeptByTheWord]

I believe that most who pastor a church or elders wichever you call it know that a title and a position doesn't get you very far with people. Trust is earned. When people learn to trust that you care for them and want only to help them in their relationship with God then they will decide the leaders they allow in their life. If you are serving God you will have Godly influence in your life(I call them pastors)!!!! When a person is hungry for God they look for any place they can possibly glean from.

Bro. GS - I appreciate the sweet spirit that you always share your thoughts with. Please understand that thread was not started with a "pastor bashing" discussion in mind.

I truly believe with all my heart, and perhaps more than ever before, in worthy servant-led leadership in the church. Sadly, there is so much leadership today by those who feel "called" to the ministry (or set in place by their fathers) who feel "called" to a position with perks and benefits, and want no part being the servant in ministry that Jesus spoke of.

I hope that more discussion on the subject will open the eyes of those who think a pastor or person in leadership can act as a dictator towards those who he is leading. We certainly don't see a dictatorship/pope type leadership example anywhere in the NT church. Instead we see Paul speaking of working with his own hands, traveling from church to church, experiencing persecution, and exhorting believers to follow his faith as a leader, setting up elders, deacons, and bishops in the churches to lead the church by example.

Bro. GS, from reading your posts, I sense your heartfelt desire to lead your church towards a more powerful relationship with the Lord, and believe that from what I have read of your posts, that your desire is to further the kingdom of God, and not rule as a dictator, setting up your own personal church kingdom. God Bless :)

[KeptByTheWord]

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

LOL... I wouldn't begrudge giving to those who are truly laboring in the gospel, and don't. We give where there are needs that need to be met, wherever they are. It gives us great joy to give.

There is not a modern day minister that I know of who has not - at least at one point in their ministry - asked for money. Do you know of one? Lol

We don't find record of Paul raising money for his missionary trips, but we do see him writing of the need of the persecuted saints in Jerusalem for which he took up a collection for to bring to them.

[KeptByTheWord]

I have heard scholars say that most today use only enough hebrew and greek to get into trouble with their interpretations. I use a strong sometimes but If it changes the meaning based upon my study then I will stick with what the Bible says. It makes no sense to me why we think interpretations are getting more reliable. As time goes further and culture becomes more foreign then I believe that the KJV translation is more reliable then anyone on this forum. In a hundred years we will have people saying the words mean something different then what we believe now. All of my family have depended ancestory have relied on the KJV translation and I trust it.

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

[thephnxman]

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?
Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?
How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

OK. Let’s put our emphasis on the words in bold, not detracting from
the content or
the Biblical context.

v. 21) Many will call Him “Lord”, only giving Him lip service. Those
who hear and obey will inherit God’s kingdom.
[Hear what?] Hear the call to repent and heed the gospel that saves:
THAT is the will of the Father;

v. 22) “There is none other NAME…”. There is power in the NAME
of Jesus! The power is not in the person or the denomination: it is in the NAME.
Using the power of the NAME does not mean the person is right: it means the
person is using the right NAME!
“But why were they healed, delivered, etc.?” Because God honors the NAME
and testifies of the power and righteousness endowed to the bearer of the NAME!
These are people who believe, but have not obeyed: they are in rebellion
with the word of God;

v. 23) There was no “intimacy” with the Lord. Adam“knew” Eve:
he had an intimate relationship with her. There is something above
all else that hinders intimacy with God: it is disobedience: it will manifest
itself in the refusal to repent, be baptized, or receive the impartation
of the Holy Spirit.

[KeptByTheWord]

OK. Let’s put our emphasis on the words in bold, not detracting from
the content or
the Biblical context.

v. 21) Many will call Him “Lord”, only giving Him lip service. Those
who hear and obey will inherit God’s kingdom.
[Hear what?] Hear the call to repent and heed the gospel that saves:
THAT is the will of the Father;

v. 22) “There is none other NAME…”. There is power in the NAME
of Jesus! The power is not in the person or the denomination: it is in the NAME.
Using the power of the NAME does not mean the person is right: it means the
person is using the right NAME!
“But why were they healed, delivered, etc.?” Because God honors the NAME
and testifies of the power and righteousness endowed to the bearer of the NAME!
These are people who believe, but have not obeyed: they are in rebellion
with the word of God;

v. 23) There was no “intimacy” with the Lord. Adam“knew” Eve:
he had an intimate relationship with her. There is something above
all else that hinders intimacy with God: it is disobedience: it will manifest
itself in the refusal to repent, be baptized, or receive the impartation
of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for taking the time to share your understanding of this verse. It is what I have understood it to mean as well. It is good for all of us to understand that just because we witness power, miracles, and authority using the name of Jesus does not immediately signify that the one being used of God is actually in submission to the Lord, and is in right standing with the Lord.

[good samaritan]

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

I have noticed when looking up words in my strong's that the alternative words to describe the one Hebrew or Greek word it is trying to define. The KJV translators have already translated the scriptures hundreds of years ago and I have faith that God would preserve His word through their translation. I believe that their choice of the word obey was for a reason. Many times the choice of English word had a lot to do with the context it was used in. Many times one greek word is used by multiple English words and sometimes the words even have conflicting meanings.

I don't have time to start giving examples, but I have seen it several times in my studies. I am sure there is a reason this is done that I am not aware of. It would probably be impossible for us to go through scripture and re-translate and I don't think ours would be reliable. lol. The word follow and obey doesn't have the same meaning although with some explaining I can see how they correlate. The problem is that follow puts less emphasis on having leadership in your life.

It just seems to me that a lot of people have written posts that show disdain for church government and leaders. I understand what is like for a leader to hurt you but also as a leader I also know what it is like to be hurt by people who I have poured myself into serving. I just believe people should be careful not allow bitterness to enter there heart and become a rebel with a christian label.

P.s I am not saying this directed at you. I just think this is a good thread to communicate my thoughts on subject.

[Sean]

I have noticed when looking up words in my strong's that the alternative words to describe the one Hebrew or Greek word it is trying to define. The KJV translators have already translated the scriptures hundreds of years ago and I have faith that God would preserve His word through their translation. I believe that their choice of the word obey was for a reason. Many times the choice of English word had a lot to do with the context it was used in. Many times one greek word is used by multiple English words and sometimes the words even have conflicting meanings.

I don't have time to start giving examples, but I have seen it several times in my studies. I am sure there is a reason this is done that I am not aware of. It would probably be impossible for us to go through scripture and re-translate and I don't think ours would be reliable. lol. The word follow and obey doesn't have the same meaning although with some explaining I can see how they correlate. The problem is that follow puts less emphasis on having leadership in your life.

It just seems to me that a lot of people have written posts that show disdain for church government and leaders. I understand what is like for a leader to hurt you but also as a leader I also know what it is like to be hurt by people who I have poured myself into serving. I just believe people should be careful not allow bitterness to enter there heart and become a rebel with a christian label.

P.s I am not saying this directed at you. I just think this is a good thread to communicate my thoughts on subject.




G.S., if I may add to your post a little....

The KJV translators had their own personal works to use in the Greek- English translation method.

The most recent Greek/English translations(Strongs etc.) are hundreds of years removed from 1611 and these recent works are only subject to the authors opinions.

Our best bet is to trust the KJV translators with the closest translation of English words translated from ancient Greek, because they were fluent in a more "traditional" form of ancient Greek, rather than trust the ones that learned it hundreds of years later in classrooms in a "hand me down" arena of thought or opinion.


All I use is an old dictionary for word search meanings.

[shazeep]

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.

[thephnxman]

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.

Who is the Holy Spirit?

[shazeep]

Who is the Holy Spirit?in this context, my interpreter. i've been led to amazing definition tweaks just by following trails in the Lex, feeling led by the Spirit to do so--so, that One.

[shazeep]

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.Who talks like this any more? Isn't the Bible hard enough already? :lol i mean granted it's still the cornerstone but i never quote it.

[Sean]

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.




In a round about way you are advocating making your own Bible, whether you realize it or not.


Since there are things you dont care for in the KJV, you then use a COMPLILATION of information to find the passage that fits your ideas better.

Something you can find more comfortable to read.

[shazeep]

In a round about way you are advocating making your own Bible, whether you realize it or not.


Since there are things you dont care for in the KJV, you then use a COMPLILATION of information to find the passage that fits your ideas better.

Something you can find more comfortable to read.
hmm. in order for that to be true, i would need a motivation to deviate from a passage, which i almost never have, and when i have this was revealed to me. Now, i do have a different understanding of a few passages now that i didn't before--"Easter" is just pagan, sorry--but really virtually everything else has been expansive, and not contradictive--similar to journeys from "hope" to "confident expectation." i now think the earth very possibly "became void" there in Gen 1, but that's like the next most fractious verse i can think of.

The things i don't care for in the KJV relate more to the language barrier, as words are weird for me anyway; i'm more of a numbers guy. The ESL Bible is like my fave! :lol but really, there is little to gripe about accuracy-wise in the KJV; one just is forced to mentally re-translate somewhat on the fly. This removes Scripture from the common man, and puts it back in the hands of a few. What more vivid illustration than a pastor reading a passage of KJV, and stopping after every phrase to, basically, re-translate into our current English.

[Sean]

hmm. in order for that to be true, i would need a motivation to deviate from a passage, which i almost never have, and when i have this was revealed to me. Now, i do have a different understanding of a few passages now that i didn't before--"Easter" is just pagan, sorry--but really virtually everything else has been expansive, and not contradictive--similar to journeys from "hope" to "confident expectation." i now think the earth very possibly "became void" there in Gen 1, but that's like the next most fractious verse i can think of.



Have you even investigated OPEN MINDEDLY the use of the word EASTER there?(in the positive light?) I posted a perfect explanation of why it is used on another thread and the guys refused to read it. It was done by a PHD guy, not me. The guys were NOT INTERESTED in learning about the man's post, they just wanted to make the KJV wrong...no matter what anyone says. Well that is what I call UNTEACHABLE!!!
These same guys are trying to invent their own independent Bible(unwittingly) using multiple Greek works and multiple versions of the Bible. They are subliminally saying there is NO true word of God for us today, therefore it is up for grabs for us to translate as we see fit, independently. These same guys are nothing more than "closet translators", trying to appear intelligent, yet they are fooling themselves and others that listen to them.

The things i don't care for in the KJV relate more to the language barrier, as words are weird for me anyway; i'm more of a numbers guy. The ESL Bible is like my fave! :lol but really, there is little to gripe about accuracy-wise in the KJV; one just is forced to mentally re-translate somewhat on the fly. This removes Scripture from the common man, and puts it back in the hands of a few. What more vivid illustration than a pastor reading a passage of KJV, and stopping after every phrase to, basically, re-translate into our current English.


I will not try to convince you something you DO NOT want to find out about.(I was ruthlessly, personally attacked on one thread by a pastor that had great disdain for the KJV and I shut it down).

I will only elaborate for folks that are sincerely wanting to know if there is a trusted Bible in existence for us to read today.

I will bomb them with info to prove that they can trust their KJV Bible as the authentic Word from the Lord for them in the days we live.

If every Bible is wrong then we ALL believe a lie!!!

I wont teach, preach, or quote a false Bible.

I look for posts that defend the KJV, not posts that seek to destroy its' integrity.

The day I believe my KJV is error prone is the day I stop talking about the Bible.

[Esaias]

My 8 year old reads the KJV daily. We all do as part of our daily routine. There is no "translating on the fly" if you are immersed in it.

Course all my kids learned to read by usin the KJV, stuff written pre-1900, etc so they have different tastes and requirements re what they find acceptable to read. Except my son who likes reading assembly, hex, C++, etc... lol

[Sean]

Amen, the KJV is written for the average grade school kid to comprehend, the modern versions have many words and phrases that require a high school minimum vocabulary.

[Esaias]

I have also found something "different" about folks who use the King James vs those who rely on the NIV or NASB or other "modern" versions as their primary English text. Something in their prayers, their outlook, lifestyle, spirituality, I dunno how to describe it... but I run into it all the time.

[Sean]

This is what I see as amazing bro....

I have heard and quoted under the unction of the Holy Ghost for 35 years the KJV verses, DIVINELY, from memory, quoted verbatim.

However, I have never heard one verse QUOTED from any other Bible by ANY minister or saint. ONLY READ FROM THE BOOK!

My conclusion by observation is the KJV is divinely anointed and inspired by the Lord!!!

[good samaritan]

This goes along with how I feel about the KJV. I look at the strong's and also have many translations, but I have faith in the KJV being the word of God in the English language. By all means study but I feel people are making a mistake to tamper with the meaning of its content.

[thephnxman]

This goes along with how I feel about the KJV. I look at the strong's and also have many translations, but I have faith in the KJV being the word of God in the English language. By all means study but I feel people are making a mistake to tamper with the meaning of its content.

My first Bible was a KJV: the Lord directed me to it from among 4-5 different versions. I also use a Strongs Concordance, but only as a guide. Fact is, I have two. One is from 1982, and a newer version. I feel the older one is a better version...and they ARE NOT the same. I'm still comparing them.

[KeptByTheWord]

This is what I see as amazing bro....

I have heard and quoted under the unction of the Holy Ghost for 35 years the KJV verses, DIVINELY, from memory, quoted verbatim.

However, I have never heard one verse QUOTED from any other Bible by ANY minister or saint. ONLY READ FROM THE BOOK!

My conclusion by observation is the KJV is divinely anointed and inspired by the Lord!!!

I rely on the KJV for my daily reading, and certainly any scriptures that I've memorized are KJV. I too have not heard anyone quote memorized scripture from any other version. That is a very good point. I use a Strong's as well, and E-Sword program to help with more information on the subject as well as the commentaries available in that program.

One of the things I have noticed with concordances, dictionaries, etc., is that many times they will list several English words as a meaning for that word and those English words may each have quite different meanings in our language, thus leaving it open to the researcher to pick which one works best. So, again, it becomes the tool or even trick, of the person looking up the word to pick the word that best fits their idea of how the passage should read.

[shazeep]

hmm, i usually consciously avoid trying to "pick" a single defining word, as the context generally works that out for me. My first Bible was a KJV: the Lord directed me to it from among 4-5 different versions. I also use a Strongs Concordance, but only as a guide. Fact is, I have two. One is from 1982, and a newer version. I feel the older one is a better version...and they ARE NOT the same. I'm still comparing them.ya, quite a few changes, huh? Shepherd's Chapel still had some of the old version, at least a year ago they did.

[Esaias]

hmm, i usually consciously avoid trying to "pick" a single defining word, as the context generally works that out for me. ya, quite a few changes, huh? Shepherd's Chapel still had some of the old version, at least a year ago they did.

Ah, Arnold Murray... taught me how to teach the bible... chapter by chapter, verse by verse...

[shazeep]

[COLOR="red"]I will not try to convince you something you DO NOT want to find out about.lol, nice characterization. Ty.



Have you even investigated OPEN MINDEDLY the use of the word EASTER there?it was my thesis, so i would say yes, i am fully aware of the perfectly reasonable explanations for ditching Passover in favor of participating in fertility rites to Ishtar--the eggs, the bunnies, etc. Wadr, you have chosen an interpretation that is more comfortable for you to read, imo. Christ is our Passover--but i have no desire to argue this any longer. If you're comfy with Easter, then do Easter.

[KeptByTheWord]

I don't like the term Easter or all the bunny rabbit nonsense at all, but I sure do believe that we are to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Passover.

[KeptByTheWord]

Ah, Arnold Murray... taught me how to teach the bible... chapter by chapter, verse by verse...

I believe Calvary Chapel does the same thing?

[Pendragon]

In a round about way you are advocating making your own Bible, whether you realize it or not.

Since there are things you dont care for in the KJV, you then use a COMPLILATION of information to find the passage that fits your ideas better.


This is pure baloney. The KJV is not The Bible, it is simply an English Translation of The Bible. The Bible is the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek writings, and up until King James commissioned a group of Church of England scholars to translate the texts into English, the Bible was read only by learned men who could read those languages. It's a well-documented fact that the KJV has numerous errors. Likewise there are passages and words in other English translations that are arguably less faithful to the meaning of the original language.

There is no version that is 'holier' than the others, although there are some that are certainly less accurate than others. All were translated by fallible men, many of whom did/do not follow the plan of salvation and likely will not be found in Heaven. The fact of the matter is, the original text stands on its own and can be interpreted by scholars whether or not they are saved. It is up to us to study the scriptures diligently and be sure we are understanding correctly the intent of the original writers.

My own opinion is that the KJV is a perfectly acceptable translation and the errors that are present are, for the most part, negligible. It is difficult to read, however. The NKJV and the NIV are also good translations, from what I have come to learn in my research, and they are much easier to read.

Something you can find more comfortable to read.

Yes, and I'm sure the Hebrew and Greek-reading scholars of 1611 leveled the same accusations at the ignorant laity when they began reading their KJV Bibles. However, unlike your argument, they actually had an excellent point when comparing their Greek and Hebrew library of scriptures to those of the KJV translated text the unlearned laity was reading.

[Pendragon]

This is what I see as amazing bro....

I have heard and quoted under the unction of the Holy Ghost for 35 years the KJV verses, DIVINELY, from memory, quoted verbatim.

However, I have never heard one verse QUOTED from any other Bible by ANY minister or saint. ONLY READ FROM THE BOOK!

My conclusion by observation is the KJV is divinely anointed and inspired by the Lord!!!

Nothing amazing about this whatsoever. God uses what we have in our brains, and KJV is by far the most popular translation that has been read and memorized for centuries. If you'd been reading and memorizing NKJV for he past 35 years it would come out NKJV.

You know what's crazy is...if you were to go to China, to an underground service, and someone was to burst forth quoting scripture under the unction of the Holy Ghost...it won't be 1600's King's English, bro. It will probably be MANDARIN. It will be a translation in THEIR OWN LANGUAGE...which will probably be a translation that was done sometime in the past 100 years, by Trinitarian missionaries.

[Pendragon]

In response to the OP:

I think a critical part of this passage is found in the first verse you quoted, 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

In the NIV, "Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."

One of the reasons I no longer obey and follow a certain man of God (I began following another; I am not leaderless) is because his life was far less than a shining light. The outcome of his way of life and his interpretation of scriptures resulted in a life that was barren of the fruit of the Spirit. His wife was even worse.

As we know, scripture interprets scripture, and Isaiah shows us that we build a foundation not with just one bit of knowledge or scripture, but 'line upon line, precept upon precept'.

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

If you were to simply accept 'them that have the rule over you' and blindly follow the pastor in whose church you were raised, or received the Holy Ghost, or however you came to be there, you might end up following a woefully inadequate leader, or an outright false sheep. On the other hand, if you look at the multiple verses above, and the principles they teach, you will come to realize that you need to not only listen to what your pastor is teaching, but how he lives his life. I heard fantastic teaching from my old pastor. His brain was chock full of scripture, and it came out in his teaching. I am grateful for many of the sermons I heard when I was in his church. But ultimately I realized his personal life and behavior was far below what is expected of a child of God and I moved on. Everyone struggles with things, but there is a big difference between a child of God who is weak in some areas, and someone who just doesn't bear any fruit whatsoever. There is no way he should have been in a position of authority. It was definitely the right decision to move on.

[FlamingZword]

My first Bible was a KJV: the Lord directed me to it from among 4-5 different versions. I also use a Strongs Concordance, but only as a guide. Fact is, I have two. One is from 1982, and a newer version. I feel the older one is a better version...and they ARE NOT the same. I'm still comparing them.

I have an original 1611 KJV, it is very hard to read.

If the KJV Only crowd really believed their theory, they would use an actual 1611 Bible, not the updated versions.

the fact that they do not read or use the original 1611 KJV version is proof that they themselves do not believe their own propaganda.

by the way the original 1611 KJV had the Apocrypha in it.
So the KJV Only crowd must accept the Apocrypha otherwise they show themselves to be hypocrites.

[Aquila]

Obedience is simply receiving and heeding sound biblical and spiritual teaching, knowledge, wisdom, and perhaps even discipline. Learning from those mistakes you made, and respecting the elders who prayed for you the whole time you made them. It's more akin to heeding the counsel of a mentor or teacher. It's not a legalistic command that makes an elder your dictatorial lord and master.

Hebrews 13:17 (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Catholics have priests. New Agers have gurus. Muslims have Imams. Born again, Bible Christians have... "elders".

Notice... within the body we have "brothers", "sisters", and "elders". These are familial terms. We must realize... we're family. The "elders" are like the elders of the family. They advise, counsel, teach, and set the example. They are not meant to act like the CEOs that mainstream Western institutional religion has made them.

[Sean]

I have an original 1611 KJV, it is very hard to read.

If the KJV Only crowd really believed their theory, they would use an actual 1611 Bible, not the updated versions.

the fact that they do not read or use the original 1611 KJV version is proof that they themselves do not believe their own propaganda.

by the way the original 1611 KJV had the Apocrypha in it.
So the KJV Only crowd must accept the Apocrypha otherwise they show themselves to be hypocrites.




The Apocrypha was ordered in 1611 to be part of the Bible for historical reference only.
It was removed later.(1800s)

There was a great respect for the new English Bible and the king did not want anyone tampering with any part of the collection of books.

This Catholic Church had done everything in their power to eradicate this KJV English Bible.

Now, the Protestants are doing it themselves!!!

[Sean]

Nothing amazing about this whatsoever. God uses what we have in our brains, and KJV is by far the most popular translation that has been read and memorized for centuries. If you'd been reading and memorizing NKJV for he past 35 years it would come out NKJV.

You know what's crazy is...if you were to go to China, to an underground service, and someone was to burst forth quoting scripture under the unction of the Holy Ghost...it won't be 1600's King's English, bro. It will probably be MANDARIN. It will be a translation in THEIR OWN LANGUAGE...which will probably be a translation that was done sometime in the past 100 years, by Trinitarian missionaries.





Nice to meet you too!...LOL

I would like to get you view on these posts and some of my resources of this proir thread.

Gail Riplinger has a video link here about errant Bibles.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GijmNGyBJE0

Dr. Walter Vieth has a video of the construction of the Bibles that appear today, including the KJV.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbikBVVkrNA

Most folks are violently ugly about this KJV only group(as you will see), but if there is just a little bit of objectivity in you, just do yourself a favor and check these sources out.....

Here is the original thread I posted....http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=46232

[thephnxman]

I have an original 1611 KJV, it is very hard to read.
If the KJV Only crowd really believed their theory, they would use an actual 1611 Bible, not the updated versions.
the fact that they do not read or use the original 1611 KJV version is proof that they themselves do not believe their own propaganda.
by the way the original 1611 KJV had the Apocrypha in it.
So the KJV Only crowd must accept the Apocrypha otherwise they show themselves to be hypocrites.

I use a 1611 KJV and I can read it as I would today's English. Fact is, I
found those modern
versions very difficult to understand!
The hardest thing about the KJV is trying to find a scripture in the concordance...because
I have to use the "correct" English to access it.
I found the apocrypha to be incompatible with the KJV, and with
its doctrines.

[KeptByTheWord]

In response to the OP:

I think a critical part of this passage is found in the first verse you quoted, 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

In the NIV, "Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."

One of the reasons I no longer obey and follow a certain man of God (I began following another; I am not leaderless) is because his life was far less than a shining light. The outcome of his way of life and his interpretation of scriptures resulted in a life that was barren of the fruit of the Spirit. His wife was even worse.

As we know, scripture interprets scripture, and Isaiah shows us that we build a foundation not with just one bit of knowledge or scripture, but 'line upon line, precept upon precept'.

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

If you were to simply accept 'them that have the rule over you' and blindly follow the pastor in whose church you were raised, or received the Holy Ghost, or however you came to be there, you might end up following a woefully inadequate leader, or an outright false sheep. On the other hand, if you look at the multiple verses above, and the principles they teach, you will come to realize that you need to not only listen to what your pastor is teaching, but how he lives his life. I heard fantastic teaching from my old pastor. His brain was chock full of scripture, and it came out in his teaching. I am grateful for many of the sermons I heard when I was in his church. But ultimately I realized his personal life and behavior was far below what is expected of a child of God and I moved on. Everyone struggles with things, but there is a big difference between a child of God who is weak in some areas, and someone who just doesn't bear any fruit whatsoever. There is no way he should have been in a position of authority. It was definitely the right decision to move on.

Excellent post! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us!

It is a very difficult thing to have to come to the place where you realize that those you have trusted and who you have allowed to be in leadership in your life, are not truly following Christ and are not allowing for the fruit of the spirit to be manifest in their lives. If you are not in a position to be able to share your concern with that person in leadership, or they won't hear you out, then moving on unfortunately is what has to take place.

Have you read Watchman Nee's book on Spiritual Authority. (http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Authority-Watchman-Nee/dp/0935008357/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421254800&sr=8-1&keywords=book+spiritual+authority&pebp=1421254792266&peasin=935008357) I found it very good on this particular subject.

[KeptByTheWord]

Obedience is simply receiving and heeding sound biblical and spiritual teaching, knowledge, wisdom, and perhaps even discipline. Learning from those mistakes you made, and respecting the elders who prayed for you the whole time you made them. It's more akin to heeding the counsel of a mentor or teacher. It's not a legalistic command that makes an elder your dictatorial lord and master.

Hebrews 13:17 (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Catholics have priests. New Agers have gurus. Muslims have Imams. Born again, Bible Christians have... "elders".

Notice... within the body we have "brothers", "sisters", and "elders". These are familial terms. We must realize... we're family. The "elders" are like the elders of the family. They advise, counsel, teach, and set the example. They are not meant to act like the CEOs that mainstream Western institutional religion has made them.

Right. The OPs say they have left the Catholic teachings behind, but they really haven't. They just tweaked them a bit, but a wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf.

Jesus gave us a perfect understanding of how the disciples were to have leadership after His death in Mark 10:42-45.

[shazeep]

nice

[FlamingZword]

I use a 1611 KJV and I can read it as I would today's English. Fact is, I
found those modern
versions very difficult to understand!
The hardest thing about the KJV is trying to find a scripture in the concordance...because
I have to use the "correct" English to access it.
I found the apocrypha to be incompatible with the KJV, and with
its doctrines.

Correction you use an "updated" 1611 KJV

You do not use a 1611 KJV. :D

[Esaias]

I have an original 1611 KJV, it is very hard to read.

If the KJV Only crowd really believed their theory, they would use an actual 1611 Bible, not the updated versions.

the fact that they do not read or use the original 1611 KJV version is proof that they themselves do not believe their own propaganda.

by the way the original 1611 KJV had the Apocrypha in it.
So the KJV Only crowd must accept the Apocrypha otherwise they show themselves to be hypocrites.

This is ignorant.

The "updated" KJVs are updated in regards to spelling and typeface (font).

The Apocrypha was included in the KJV in between the OT and the NT. That fact, coupled with the fsct it was labelled "apocrypha", clearly shows the translators did not view it as the Word. They even prefaced it with a statement to that effect.

And yes, I have a 1611 version. And I doubt you have an original or a COPY of "the original" since the 1611s sold at bookstores are set in a different font. The ORIGINAL is in a calligraphic Olde English font whereas the store "facsimiles" are in a unique Romanized typeface. The store versions also lack the geneology charts. A true facsimile copy is available only one place and it ain't cheap.

[Esaias]

Nice to meet you too!...LOL

I would like to get you view on these posts and some of my resources of this proir thread.

Gail Riplinger has a video link here about errant Bibles.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GijmNGyBJE0

Dr. Walter Vieth has a video of the construction of the Bibles that appear today, including the KJV.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbikBVVkrNA

Most folks are violently ugly about this KJV only group(as you will see), but if there is just a little bit of objectivity in you, just do yourself a favor and check these sources out.....

Here is the original thread I posted....http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=46232


Personally I would avoid using Riplinger as a source for anything.

[Sean]

Dont look at the person, but the material. She is a trini, but her stuff on the overhead is amazing. I have distributed this video to hundreds of brethren and they agree with it.

[Esaias]

Yeah but Riplinger has some other issues besides her trinitarianism. There are plenty of scholarly defenders of the KJV that will do in a pinch. jmo

But I also think we're not dealing with logical issues. Most people don't really use logic or reason anymore, for ANY subject. It's all heuristics. And we can thank the public skool system for that.

[obriencp]

But I also think we're not dealing with logical issues. Most people don't really use logic or reason anymore, for ANY subject. It's all heuristics. And we can thank the public skool system for that.

Thank you for expanding my vocabulary today. And I do agree with this statement. :highfive

[Aquila]

In the house church movement, elders are spiritual mentors and fathers that guide and teach. They are not there to control every choice you make or aspect of your life as you learn to follow the Spirit. Instead, they warn where they feel there might be dangers, but they leave the choice up to you, realizing that we are all on a journey and have much to learn. If a bad choice is made, they are there to help lift up, encourage, and pray for healing. Among them are quiet unassuming prophets and seers, open to offering spiritual counsel and guidance as needed.

After experiencing the leadership of the elders in the house church movement... I don't think I could tolerate the totalitarian control of many pastors in the traditional church.

[Revelationist]

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. NRSV

Ol' King James had that one modified just a little... since he had rule over them. NRSV is more accurate...

[FlamingZword]

A true facsimile copy is available only one place and it ain't cheap.

I know it is not cheap, it cost me a pretty penny.
But I think it was worth every penny in order to show the KJV Crowd the foolishness of their idea.
A true KJV Only believer would Only use an exact copy like the one I have. :D

[votivesoul]

I make some comments on "Obey them that have the rule over you" here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/translator-bias-and-the-error-of-eisegesis/

and here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/the-leadership-deception/

The basic idea is as follows:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

Obey, from peitho to persuade or convince

Them: it is plural!

Rule, from hegemonai to lead, go before

Over: NOT EVEN PRESENT IN THE GREEK

Submit, from hypeiko to yield, give way

So what is the author attempting to convey?

A military structure where some give orders and some follow orders? Nope.

He is suggesting that people learn to yield to those who are able by lifestyle and demonstration of Godly moral character, to persuade or convince that whatever courses of action are proper.

There is no hint of expectation that a person must fall in and do what he or she is told. A person needs to be persuaded and out of a good conscience that what they are being told is righteous, yield to the influence.

But the obligation is ONLY present when the persuasion is right. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be persuaded just because. If you can't convince me by the Spirit and peaceable fruits of love that you know what you're talking about, then I don't have to yield.

Further, since "over" isn't even there, the whole idea that there are levels of hierarchy where some have to submit to others who don't have to submit to anyone, can't be proven from this verse (try as people do).

Lastly, the persuasion and convincing should come from multiple sources, not just one person. The Body, with the elders, should be able, if they are righteous and being led by the Spirit, to convince anyone of what is right.

But even if they try, and a person doesn't yield, it doesn't mean they get to pull rank and start making demands. There is no barking of orders allowed by the verse in the Greek.

[votivesoul]

As they that must give an account...

It has long been believed that this means that pastors will have to stand before Christ in the judgment seat and tell Him how so and so in their church was; were they good or bad, easy or hard to pastor, and that somehow, this account will determine whether or not Jesus will allow the person so pastored into heaven.

Where is that in the verse?

That is all assumed. It makes my salvation dependent upon another man who is not my head to give a report to the Lord and either save or condemn me. That's garbage.

Let's be realistic. No one in the Body but Jesus Himself has that kind of power over a soul.

After all, maybe when I stand before the Lord in the judgment seat, I will give an account of how badly some men I know have pastored and Jesus will bar them entrance?

[KeptByTheWord]

I make some comments on "Obey them that have the rule over you" here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/translator-bias-and-the-error-of-eisegesis/

and here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/the-leadership-deception/

The basic idea is as follows:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

Obey, from peitho to persuade or convince

Them: it is plural!

Rule, from hegemonai to lead, go before

Over: NOT EVEN PRESENT IN THE GREEK

Submit, from hypeiko to yield, give way

So what is the author attempting to convey?

A military structure where some give orders and some follow orders? Nope.

He is suggesting that people learn to yield to those who are able by lifestyle and demonstration of Godly moral character, to persuade or convince that whatever courses of action are proper.

There is no hint of expectation that a person must fall in and do what he or she is told. A person needs to be persuaded and out of a good conscience that what they are being told is righteous, yield to the influence.

But the obligation is ONLY present when the persuasion is right. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be persuaded just because. If you can't convince me by the Spirit and peaceable fruits of love that you know what you're talking about, then I don't have to yield.

Further, since "over" isn't even there, the whole idea that there are levels of hierarchy where some have to submit to others who don't have to submit to anyone, can't be proven from this verse (try as people do).

Lastly, the persuasion and convincing should come from multiple sources, not just one person. The Body, with the elders, should be able, if they are righteous and being led by the Spirit, to convince anyone of what is right.

But even if they try, and a person doesn't yield, it doesn't mean they get to pull rank and start making demands. There is no barking of orders allowed by the verse in the Greek.

Excellent thoughts, and thank you for sharing!

[KeptByTheWord]

As they that must give an account...

It has long been believed that this means that pastors will have to stand before Christ in the judgment seat and tell Him how so and so in their church was; were they good or bad, easy or hard to pastor, and that somehow, this account will determine whether or not Jesus will allow the person so pastored into heaven.

Where is that in the verse?

That is all assumed. It makes my salvation dependent upon another man who is not my head to give a report to the Lord and either save or condemn me. That's garbage.

Let's be realistic. No one in the Body but Jesus Himself has that kind of power over a soul.

After all, maybe when I stand before the Lord in the judgment seat, I will give an account of how badly some men I know have pastored and Jesus will bar them entrance?

Thank you for bringing up the next part of the verse that is often used by pastors in the sense that they feel a responsibility for the souls they must "give account for" - of which understanding is completely false. Many pastors use this "give account for your souls" teaching to further demand obedience out of their saints, and what a lie from the enemy that is.

Here is our conclusion from our study on that particular part of the verse:

Heb. 13:17 "as they that must give account"

-- This scripture does not explicitly state who they will give an account of. Two popular schools of thought are: 1) they will give account of themselves and 2) they will give account of those they lead. Because this scripture does not provide any context to determine who they are giving account of, we must cross reference to other scriptures that mention giving account.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
['who' is referring to those who are doing evil things-- they will have to account for themselves]

--These scriptures are the strongest evidence that every man must give an account for himself. Therefore, these spiritual leaders must also give account for themselves and for their conversation (lifestyle), as every man must. This is motivation to be a godly example, also.

... "that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

-- It would make sense, then, that if a spiritual leader is living a godly example, they are able to give account for themselves with joy and not grief. However, if these spiritual leaders are not living a godly example, that would be unprofitable for fellow believers because they may lead others astray.

[thephnxman]

Thank you for bringing up the next part of the verse that is often used by pastors in the sense that they feel a responsibility for the souls they must "give account for" - of which understanding is completely false. Many pastors use this "give account for your souls" teaching to further demand obedience out of their saints, and what a lie from the enemy that is.
Here is our conclusion from our study on that particular part of the verse:
Heb. 13:17 "as they that must give account"
-- This scripture does not explicitly state who they will give an account of. Two popular schools of thought are: 1) they will give account of themselves and 2) they will give account of those they lead. Because this scripture does not provide any context to determine who they are giving account of, we must cross reference to other scriptures that mention giving account.
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
['who' is referring to those who are doing evil things-- they will have to account for themselves]
--These scriptures are the strongest evidence that every man must give an account for himself. Therefore, these spiritual leaders must also give account for themselves and for their conversation (lifestyle), as every man must. This is motivation to be a godly example, also.
... "that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
-- It would make sense, then, that if a spiritual leader is living a godly example, they are able to give account for themselves with joy and not grief. However, if these spiritual leaders are not living a godly example, that would be unprofitable for fellow believers because they may lead others astray.


Key words: "godly example".
AMEN.

[Aquila]

I make some comments on "Obey them that have the rule over you" here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/translator-bias-and-the-error-of-eisegesis/

and here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/the-leadership-deception/

The basic idea is as follows:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

Obey, from peitho to persuade or convince

Them: it is plural!

Rule, from hegemonai to lead, go before

Over: NOT EVEN PRESENT IN THE GREEK

Submit, from hypeiko to yield, give way

So what is the author attempting to convey?

A military structure where some give orders and some follow orders? Nope.

He is suggesting that people learn to yield to those who are able by lifestyle and demonstration of Godly moral character, to persuade or convince that whatever courses of action are proper.

There is no hint of expectation that a person must fall in and do what he or she is told. A person needs to be persuaded and out of a good conscience that what they are being told is righteous, yield to the influence.

But the obligation is ONLY present when the persuasion is right. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be persuaded just because. If you can't convince me by the Spirit and peaceable fruits of love that you know what you're talking about, then I don't have to yield.

Further, since "over" isn't even there, the whole idea that there are levels of hierarchy where some have to submit to others who don't have to submit to anyone, can't be proven from this verse (try as people do).

Lastly, the persuasion and convincing should come from multiple sources, not just one person. The Body, with the elders, should be able, if they are righteous and being led by the Spirit, to convince anyone of what is right.

But even if they try, and a person doesn't yield, it doesn't mean they get to pull rank and start making demands. There is no barking of orders allowed by the verse in the Greek.

:thumbsup

[Lafon]

Here's the manner in which The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament (a word-for-word translation of the original writings) records the three (3) passages of Hebrews 13 wherein the phrase "them that have the rule over you" appears (see vss. #7, 17 & 24):

"Remember the [ones] leading of you, who have spoke to you the word of God, of whom looking at the result of the conduct imitate their faith."

"Obey ye the [ones] leading of you and submit to [them]; for they watch on behalf of the souls of you as account rendering; in order that with joy this they may do and not groaning; for profitless to you this [would be]."

"Greet ye all the [ones] leading of you and all the saints, greet you the [ones] from Italy."

As noted by Votivesoul, the word OVER does not appear in the original Greek manuscript, and neither does RULE. In each passage it appears the KJV translators have replaced "LEADING" with "rule over," which is NOT an accurate manner of translating the word "leading."

[thephnxman]

Here's the manner in which The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament (a word-for-word translation of the original writings) records the three (3) passages of Hebrews 13 wherein the phrase "them that have the rule over you" appears (see vss. #7, 17 & 24):
"Remember the [ones] leading of you, who have spoke to you the word of God, of whom looking at the result of the conduct imitate their faith."
"Obey ye the [ones] leading of you and submit to [them]; for they watch on behalf of the souls of you as account rendering; in order that with joy this they may do and not groaning; for profitless to you this [would be]."
"Greet ye all the [ones] leading of you and all the saints, greet you the [ones] from Italy."
As noted by Votivesoul, the word OVER does not appear in the original Greek manuscript, and neither does RULE. In each passage it appears the KJV translators have replaced "LEADING" with "rule over," which is NOT an accurate manner of translating the word " ."

The ones who are, or should be, "leading" are they that evangelized the new converts...if
it be that they have also been truly discipled (taught how to work the ministry). We should
be with the newbies when they call, sit with them in the pews, and just plain mentor them.

Of course, it seems to me, most folks are only taught how to invite to the church, and then
handed over to the pastor. Purely unscriptural.

[Dante]

Everyone is so obsessed with authority and leadership. Get over yourselves.

[Scott Pitta]

I do obey my pastor, but he is no "dictator". He does not micro manage the lives of the members of the congregation. He is a nice guy who is underpaid. Most of my pastor friends are the same way.

I am not a pastor, but I am a Bible translator. No, I never use a Strong's concordance. Yes, I did take Greek on the college level. No, I do not have a favorite translation. For devotional purposes, I use a NIV.

I translate for fun. I translate for study. It requires a working understanding of semantics, textual criticism, Koine Greek, and a college professor to correct your work.

Be nice to your pastor and please be nice to the Bible translators. :)

[Abiding Now]

I don't have an original 1611, but I do have this.

[Sean]

I do obey my pastor, but he is no "dictator". He does not micro manage the lives of the members of the congregation. He is a nice guy who is underpaid. Most of my pastor friends are the same way.

I am not a pastor, but I am a Bible translator. No, I never use a Strong's concordance. Yes, I did take Greek on the college level. No, I do not have a favorite translation. For devotional purposes, I use a NIV.

I translate for fun. I translate for study. It requires a working understanding of semantics, textual criticism, Koine Greek, and a college professor to correct your work.

Be nice to your pastor and please be nice to the Bible translators. :)





Scott, if you care to, please take a quick peak at this site(5 min).....https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nowtheendbegins.com%2Fpages%2 FKJV%2Fthe-kjv-versus-the-niv.htm&ei=_0S7VIKhOoaegwSjhYSYAw&usg=AFQjCNGISCOHP3VP3wolBtsNAyDfxrOaHg

[thephnxman]

Everyone is so obsessed with authority and leadership. Get over yourselves.

Some folks may be obsessed and feel today's modern ministry is trying to be too intimidating.
Personally, I am obsessed with bringing the Full Ministry back into the picture, as it was for
the Church at Pentecost. The Church operated at its best because the Ministry was at its best!

Lip service was not good enough for men like Peter, John, and Paul.

[Scott Pitta]

Sean,

I took a quick peak at the site you recommended. The KJV and the NIV are translated from different manuscript traditions. Therefore, the resulting translation is different.

Just for fun, compare how the NT quotes the OT. Lots of variations. Not all of them due to translating from one language to another. The situation is complex.

Have a great day of worship !!

[Sean]

You have a great day also. If you want a little more background on the fallicy of the NIV's Alexandrian text, I would gladly share what I have bro. God bless.

[KeptByTheWord]

Everyone is so obsessed with authority and leadership. Get over yourselves.

We are not obsessed with authority and leadership... unless you understand that we are seeking it out with all our hearts, and want - with all our hearts - the kind of leadership that built the early NT church.

[KeptByTheWord]

Some folks may be obsessed and feel today's modern ministry is trying to be too intimidating.
Personally, I am obsessed with bringing the Full Ministry back into the picture, as it was for
the Church at Pentecost. The Church operated at its best because the Ministry was at its best!

Lip service was not good enough for men like Peter, John, and Paul.

Amen!

[FlamingZword]

Sean,

I took a quick peak at the site you recommended. The KJV and the NIV are translated from different manuscript traditions. Therefore, the resulting translation is different.

Just for fun, compare how the NT quotes the OT. Lots of variations. Not all of them due to translating from one language to another. The situation is complex.

Have a great day of worship !!

The KJV still has that fabricated Trinitarian verse 1 John 5:7
All modern bibles have already dumped that verse, it is time for the KJV to join the crowd and dump that inserted verse. :D

[Scott Pitta]

Our pastor preached a great sermon today. He has a sense of humility that I find refreshing.

Comparing a NIV with a KJV is like comparing a Tyndale Bible with a Vulgate. Differences ? Yes. Is one a better Bible than the other ? By what measurement ???

[mfblume]

the entire stream of bibles from the Catholic Nestle's text and not the Textus Receptus, have changes and alterations in them that are the results of people whose philosophy is they can treat the bible like any old ancient book subject to change, and that God did not preserve His word supernaturally. So, I cannot trust any of that strain whatsoever. The philosophy behind them is way too questionable and carnal. They're of the ilk of the Jesus Seminar people who dissect more and more out of the New Testament every year.

[Sean]

Our pastor preached a great sermon today. He has a sense of humility that I find refreshing.

Comparing a NIV with a KJV is like comparing a Tyndale Bible with a Vulgate. Differences ? Yes. Is one a better Bible than the other ? By what measurement ???


Your pastor needs his eyes opened bro.

The KJV is derived from a collection of nearly 2000 identical(in most cases) documents.(Textus Receptus).

The single manuscript used in the NIV was found in a wastebasket.

The translators for the Greek/English text used to create the NIV were Jesuit priests disguised as Protestants, trying to create a bible to counteract the reformation. Their names were Westcott/Hort.

Check out this video and it will clarify what I am saying.......





https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQ3ywwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtNv-zzpIwBs&ei=zhm8VIatHoGtyASmv4KICw&usg=AFQjCNFhY71kQA1Qk2RHZ3S9J_PqHROyfw&sig2=CdB0HQfO-laRG8FS8oHYyg&bvm=bv.83829542,d.aWw

[Scott Pitta]

Oops, my blunder. Blame it on a football game distraction.

Pastor preached today out of John chapter 8. The comments about the Bible translations were my own thoughts.

Textual criticism deserves a post of its own. I certainly have no desire to start one.

My favorite pastor ever was Kenneth Haney. Yes, I was spoiled. :)

[Sean]

Bro. Haney pastored us over 20 years. I knew him well bro.

[Scott Pitta]

He was my pastor when I was in college from 82-86.

On a totally unrelated note, the Packers are doing really well. :)

[Abiding Now]

On the subject of "Obeying them that have the rule over you", as long as I remain Spiritual, I have no problem submitting to a Spiritual leader.

[Scott Pitta]

I wonder...if there are different leadership styles being discussed. Some pastors are prone to make decisions and standards that are beyond the borders of Scripture.

Other pastors let members make their own choices and focus on the gospel.

Apples and oranges.

[Originalist]

On the subject of "Obeying them that have the rule over you", as long as I remain Spiritual, I have no problem submitting to a Spiritual leader.


I have encountered a disturbing number of pastors who really did not surround themselves with spiritual people, but yes men.

[Scott Pitta]

Board members must feel free to speak their minds at a board meeting. "Yes" men are of no value to a church.

[thephnxman]

Board members must feel free to speak their minds at a board meeting. "Yes" men are of no value to a church.

I take it that you are referring to the "local" board.

[votivesoul]

The most famous, well-known verse in the entire Bible, perhaps even more than John 3:16, is Psalm 23:1,

The LORD is my shepherd...

So how about this:

We obey and submit to Jesus Christ because He has the rule over us. And if we are faithful to Him, when it comes to it, He will confess us (i.e. give an account) before His Father with joy and not sorrow, and it will be profitable for us, eternally so.

People are so caught up obeying a man whom they have seen that they have no idea on how to obey a man they have not seen.

Jesus doesn't allow for usurpers, folks. I will NEVER allow another man to be my wife's head. So do you suppose Jesus will ever allow someone to be my head?

[KeptByTheWord]

The most famous, well-known verse in the entire Bible, perhaps even more than John 3:16, is Psalm 23:1,

The LORD is my shepherd...

So how about this:

We obey and submit to Jesus Christ because He has the rule over us. And if we are faithful to Him, when it comes to it, He will confess us (i.e. give an account) before His Father with joy and not sorrow, and it will be profitable for us, eternally so.

People are so caught up obeying a man whom they have seen that they have no idea on how to obey a man they have not seen.

Jesus doesn't allow for usurpers, folks. I will NEVER allow another man to be my wife's head. So do you suppose Jesus will ever allow someone to be my head?

Amen! And what a wonderful High Priest and Shepherd of our Souls we have!

[Aquila]

To me, a "pastor" is an elder who serves as a spiritual guide and mentor. He is no dictator. He doesn't demand conformity to his will. He counsels, advises, and allows you to seek God and make choices, helping you to learn how to discern the voice of God for yourself. He is secure and doesn't hold your mistakes against you, but rather is always there to lift you up should you make the wrong decision. He acts as a loving spiritual "father" in the Gospel.

[thephnxman]

To me, a "pastor" is an elder who serves as a spiritual guide and mentor. He is no dictator. He doesn't demand conformity to his will. He counsels, advises, and allows you to seek God and make choices, helping you to learn how to discern the voice of God for yourself. He is secure and doesn't hold your mistakes against you, but rather is always there to lift you up should you make the wrong decision. He acts as a loving spiritual "father" in the Gospel.

That's about as close as one can get!

[votivesoul]

To me, a "pastor" is an elder who serves as a spiritual guide and mentor. He is no dictator. He doesn't demand conformity to his will. He counsels, advises, and allows you to seek God and make choices, helping you to learn how to discern the voice of God for yourself. He is secure and doesn't hold your mistakes against you, but rather is always there to lift you up should you make the wrong decision. He acts as a loving spiritual "father" in the Gospel.

Many men are like that, until you disagree or challenge them on something you think they say, believe, or teach is wrong.

Nonetheless, God bless the ones who have the heart you described above.