More charismania on the loose

[mfblume]

I just read an ad for a new book that goes like this:

The Physics of Heaven

Read what some of the most beloved leaders in the Christian charismatic movement have to say as they explore the mysteries of God hidden in sound, light, vibrations, frequencies, energy, and quantum physics and they share their insights into how God may use these different expressions of creation to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost. Contributors include Bill and Beni Johnson, Bob Jones, Larry Randolph, Ray Hughes, Cal Pierce, Dan McCollam, Jonathan Welton, and David Van Koevering. "In this powerful book, Judy Franklin and Ellyn Davis assemble a team of seers who peer behind the curtain of creation to reveal the mysterious nature of our Creator. This book reads like a journal that emerged from a Holy Spirit think tank where great spiritual leaders gathered to discuss their insights into the complexities of God. Through their collective intelligence, these seers have emerged with new perspectives never before pondered." (from the foreward by Kris Vallotton)

It reminds me of the recent fad where people thought physically blowing a shofar would make demons flee and incite angels to war for the church, etc.

Like focusing on gold dust appearing in a meeting. It's getting into sensationalism.

I believe science can confirm the word of God. But to focus on that and get away from the word on more onto things Jesus and the Apostles never taught is dangerous but very "faddy" today.

They make the bible feel like a shallow religious bit of inked words on paper compared to the deeper things God is saying outside the written word.

The blurb says "God may use these different expressions of creation to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost." What?????

[Rudy]

I heard of the gold dust thing and blowing shofars. Just about everyday something odd pops up.

[KeptByTheWord]

Flesh always seeks sensationalism. The work of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is to make us into His image. That is not so sensational, in fact it hurts. So, the flesh would rather dwell on the sensational, than the suffering of Christ.

[mfblume]

Flesh always seeks sensationalism. The work of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is to make us into His image. That is not so sensational, in fact it hurts. So, the flesh would rather dwell on the sensational, than the suffering of Christ.

Amen.

[UnTraditional]

Be careful not to attribute the works of God to flesh or the devil. Been there and done that. People want to condemn what they do not understand. The fact is, the blowing of the shofar and these supernatural phenomenon are real, and I have witnessed them firsthand. And while some want to condemn the Charismatic movement for the sensationalism that happens, let me assure you, God gets the glory out of those supernatural events. In fact, not one time that I have experienced the supernatural, not one time did any man or woman say they did something to attribute to this. I have heard all those around me when the gold dust appeared, when the supernatural took place, humbly and exuberantly give praise to God alone for these things.

There are realms of the supernatural that we do not understand with the natural mind. In fact, Scripture teaches that the natural mind cannot and will not comprehend the things of the Spirit. before you start condemning these supernatural manifestations and moving into the realm of the prophetic, ask yourself if you are of the ability to judge how God chooses to move and manifest? Ask yourself, that if God were to send an angel to send a word, would you receive it? Let us be careful not to move into any form of cessationism, in the slightest. God had to show me some powerful rebukes in my life to humble me. Quench not the Spirit. be weary and careful.

[Aquila]

I just read an ad for a new book that goes like this:

The Physics of Heaven

Read what some of the most beloved leaders in the Christian charismatic movement have to say as they explore the mysteries of God hidden in sound, light, vibrations, frequencies, energy, and quantum physics and they share their insights into how God may use these different expressions of creation to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost. Contributors include Bill and Beni Johnson, Bob Jones, Larry Randolph, Ray Hughes, Cal Pierce, Dan McCollam, Jonathan Welton, and David Van Koevering. "In this powerful book, Judy Franklin and Ellyn Davis assemble a team of seers who peer behind the curtain of creation to reveal the mysterious nature of our Creator. This book reads like a journal that emerged from a Holy Spirit think tank where great spiritual leaders gathered to discuss their insights into the complexities of God. Through their collective intelligence, these seers have emerged with new perspectives never before pondered." (from the foreward by Kris Vallotton)

It reminds me of the recent fad where people thought physically blowing a shofar would make demons flee and incite angels to war for the church, etc.

Like focusing on gold dust appearing in a meeting. It's getting into sensationalism.

I believe science can confirm the word of God. But to focus on that and get away from the word on more onto things Jesus and the Apostles never taught is dangerous but very "faddy" today.

They make the bible feel like a shallow religious bit of inked words on paper compared to the deeper things God is saying outside the written word.

The blurb says "God may use these different expressions of creation to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost." What?????

I've come to this conclusion... the Bible is indispensable. However, the Bible is primarily the history and experiences of others. When one begins to delve into the deeper things of the Spirit for themselves, personal experience and revelation begins. The Bible remains the "touchstone" of our walk. But we cannot live solely on the experiences, relationships, and understandings recording 2,000 years ago. We have to enter into this realm ourselves.

"You will say, `Christ saith this, and the apostles say this', but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light and hast walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it inwardly from God?" ~ George Fox, Ulverston, England in 1652

[Steve Epley]

You know what P.T. Barnum said.:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

Flesh always seeks sensationalism. The work of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is to make us into His image. That is not so sensational, in fact it hurts. So, the flesh would rather dwell on the sensational, than the suffering of Christ.

Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've come to this conclusion... the Bible is indispensable. However, the Bible is primarily the history and experiences of others. When one begins to delve into the deeper things of the Spirit for themselves, personal experience and revelation begins. The Bible remains the "touchstone" of our walk. But we cannot live solely on the experiences, relationships, and understandings recording 2,000 years ago. We have to enter into this realm ourselves.

"You will say, `Christ saith this, and the apostles say this', but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light and hast walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it inwardly from God?" ~ George Fox, Ulverston, England in 1652

Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

You know what P.T. Barnum said.:thumbsup

Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Contributors include Bill and Beni Johnson, Bob Jones, Larry Randolph, Ray Hughes, Cal Pierce, Dan McCollam, Jonathan Welton, and David Van Koevering. "In this powerful book, Judy Franklin and Ellyn Davis assemble a team of seers who peer behind the curtain of creation to reveal the mysterious nature of our Creator.

Except for IHOP I have pretty much lost touch with the Charismatic movement. I only know one of those names. Early on I enjoyed the Charismatic movement as I was a new believer and they (at least some of them) were farther along in Christ than I was.

[mfblume]

Be careful not to attribute the works of God to flesh or the devil. Been there and done that. People want to condemn what they do not understand. The fact is, the blowing of the shofar and these supernatural phenomenon are real, and I have witnessed them firsthand. And while some want to condemn the Charismatic movement for the sensationalism that happens, let me assure you, God gets the glory out of those supernatural events. In fact, not one time that I have experienced the supernatural, not one time did any man or woman say they did something to attribute to this. I have heard all those around me when the gold dust appeared, when the supernatural took place, humbly and exuberantly give praise to God alone for these things.

There are realms of the supernatural that we do not understand with the natural mind. In fact, Scripture teaches that the natural mind cannot and will not comprehend the things of the Spirit. before you start condemning these supernatural manifestations and moving into the realm of the prophetic, ask yourself if you are of the ability to judge how God chooses to move and manifest? Ask yourself, that if God were to send an angel to send a word, would you receive it? Let us be careful not to move into any form of cessationism, in the slightest. God had to show me some powerful rebukes in my life to humble me. Quench not the Spirit. be weary and careful.
When experiences conflict with word there is warning required. And to say these extrabliblical experiences are key to fullness of Pentecost, it's just wrong. Charismania is the closest I ever saw to JESUS' warning in matthew 7:21- 23.

[UnTraditional]

When experiences conflict with word there is warning required. And to say these extrabliblical experiences are key to fullness of Pentecost, it's just wrong. Charismania is the closest I ever saw to JESUS' warning in matthew 7:21- 23.

Maybe these experiences are given to show us our interpretation of The Word is wrong? Maybe, instead of us trying to tell God how to move, what to do and how to do it, we should allow God to be God and just be receptive to what He is saying.

Let me ask those of you who are so staunch against the Charismatic movement this. If they are so wrong, then why is God honoring their faith in answering prayer? When I was about to go into the hospital for surgery, a Trinitarian elder laid hands on me, prayed in the name of Jesus, and I was healed. I had two doctors tell me I had to have the surgery. When God answered that prayer, I asked for a third opinion. The third doctor ran more tests, and told me that I not only did not need the surgery, but that there was no evidence that I had ever been injured in the first place. Mind you, a trinitarian elder prayed, for all those who are so stauch in telling God who is His and who is not.

Later, I was diagnosed with a condition that my blood levels were deathly low. My pancreas and spleen were both enlarged and no source was found. I was sent to an oncologist to find the problem. While I was at a very Charismatic church, some of the believers laid hands on me and prayed for me. Mind you, these were Charismatics, and were not even Oneness, so according to some of you, they were not even saved. Yet, God in His love supernaturally answered the prayers of those believers.

Oh, and one final thing. I am a large man, and at one time was over 600 lbs. I had lost to about 350 lbs., but was at a standstill. A word from a Charismatic pastor came during a prophetic meeting that there would be supernatural weight loss. Right then, the believers around me stood and said that I was shrinking. Sure enough, God immediately began doing a supernatural work, and I lost 25 lbs. right there. A continued sign was that the Lord shrunk my feet three sizes, from a 16 EEEEE to a 13 regular, and I still have the big shoes to prove this.

For all those who believe the charismatic movement is not of God because it does not fit into your paradigm, because it does not fit into your thought process, remember what the Word says, that the natural man cannot and will not comprehend the things of the Spirit. I was near death, burned out, and was completely about to lose everything. When I repented, God did not send me to an Apostolic Oneness church, but to a Charismatic church to be renewed and restored. He did this, and showed Himself mightily. And all those things that I used to preach so hard against, He changed my understanding and showed me what was really being said in the Scriptures.

Also, please, all those who consider trinitarians lost, please explain to me how God did not use those super saints of Oneness to pray for me, but instead honored the sincere, faithful, trusted prayers of those outside the Oneness circle, honored their faith, and healed me supernaturally? How is it that God honors their prayers, when they are not saved, and seemingly honors their prayers, their love, their faith more than those in the Oneness circles? And, who are you to tell God who He can and cannot save and use?

[Jito463]

Also, please, all those who consider trinitarians lost, please explain to me how God did not use those super saints of Oneness to pray for me, but instead honored the sincere, faithful, trusted prayers of those outside the Oneness circle, honored their faith, and healed me supernaturally? How is it that God honors their prayers, when they are not saved, and seemingly honors their prayers, their love, their faith more than those in the Oneness circles? And, who are you to tell God who He can and cannot save and use?

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would also remind you, God even used a donkey. Don't judge their salvation based on their works. God will answer the prayers of any who seek Him sincerely, even if they don't know the truth. Nevertheless, truth is vital to our salvation.

[mfblume]

Maybe these experiences are given to show us our interpretation of The Word is wrong? Maybe, instead of us trying to tell God how to move, what to do and how to do it, we should allow God to be God and just be receptive to what He is saying.

Let me ask those of you who are so staunch against the Charismatic movement this. If they are so wrong, then why is God honoring their faith in answering prayer? When I was about to go into the hospital for surgery, a Trinitarian elder laid hands on me, prayed in the name of Jesus, and I was healed. I had two doctors tell me I had to have the surgery. When God answered that prayer, I asked for a third opinion. The third doctor ran more tests, and told me that I not only did not need the surgery, but that there was no evidence that I had ever been injured in the first place. Mind you, a trinitarian elder prayed, for all those who are so stauch in telling God who is His and who is not.

Later, I was diagnosed with a condition that my blood levels were deathly low. My pancreas and spleen were both enlarged and no source was found. I was sent to an oncologist to find the problem. While I was at a very Charismatic church, some of the believers laid hands on me and prayed for me. Mind you, these were Charismatics, and were not even Oneness, so according to some of you, they were not even saved. Yet, God in His love supernaturally answered the prayers of those believers.

Oh, and one final thing. I am a large man, and at one time was over 600 lbs. I had lost to about 350 lbs., but was at a standstill. A word from a Charismatic pastor came during a prophetic meeting that there would be supernatural weight loss. Right then, the believers around me stood and said that I was shrinking. Sure enough, God immediately began doing a supernatural work, and I lost 25 lbs. right there. A continued sign was that the Lord shrunk my feet three sizes, from a 16 EEEEE to a 13 regular, and I still have the big shoes to prove this.

For all those who believe the charismatic movement is not of God because it does not fit into your paradigm, because it does not fit into your thought process, remember what the Word says, that the natural man cannot and will not comprehend the things of the Spirit. I was near death, burned out, and was completely about to lose everything. When I repented, God did not send me to an Apostolic Oneness church, but to a Charismatic church to be renewed and restored. He did this, and showed Himself mightily. And all those things that I used to preach so hard against, He changed my understanding and showed me what was really being said in the Scriptures.

Also, please, all those who consider trinitarians lost, please explain to me how God did not use those super saints of Oneness to pray for me, but instead honored the sincere, faithful, trusted prayers of those outside the Oneness circle, honored their faith, and healed me supernaturally? How is it that God honors their prayers, when they are not saved, and seemingly honors their prayers, their love, their faith more than those in the Oneness circles? And, who are you to tell God who He can and cannot save and use?

You do err not knowing the power of God and the scriptures.

Brother, a fundamental and very very basic understanding that we MUST REALIZE is that the genuine operation of the gifts of the Spirit do not verify a person's salvation by any means. It has been quoted by myself and others as well that Jesus will have people plead with Him to let them in the kingdom saying they did miracles and supernatural feats, but yet He never knew them.

The miracles are real! Even of God! I never said they're of the devil, unless they violate scripture, because the devil can do lying wonders. But even if it's God, that by no means allows for their salvation.

Everyone needs to know this!

Paul said the Corinthians had all the genuine gifts of the Spirit!!

1Co 1:4-7 KJV I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; (5) That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; (6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: (7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:


THEY HAD THEM ALL! Not fake, but genuine gifts of the Spirit where GOD was really working!

But...

1Co 3:1-3 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


And notice what else Paul said about christians who are envious, divisive and strifeful...

Gal 5:19-21 KJV Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions (divisions), heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Did you catch it? THEY SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM!!

That's exactly what Jesus said:

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Don't look for their miraculous works of God. Look for their fruit! What was Galatians 5 contrasting from the works of the flesh that the carnal Corinthians were committing that kept them from entering the kingdom? FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

Before Jesus spoke of the GENUINE GIFTS that the workers of iniquity were accomplishing, He said this:

Mat 7:17-20 KJV Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Brother, you've been looking for their gifts in all you said above. But Jesus said look for their fruit. And the fruit makes a person LIVE A CLEAN LIFE. Not the gifts. That's why these "Lord, Lord" criers were called workers of iniquity.

That's why these charismatics have such rampant immorality in their ranks. MANY OF THEM (not all) are workers of iniquity while they operate in genuine gifts of the Spirit. Todd Bentley was heralded as an apostle of the prophetic by all the apostles of the Charismantic movement, and was committing adultery with his secretary all the while.

You do err not knowing the power of God and the scriptures. The POWER can work with workers of iniquity. Gifts do not validate a person's salvation. And the scriptures clearly teach the need for fruit of the Spirit or one is not getting into the Kingdom.

More...

[mfblume]

Brother untrad.,

Jesus said many would come to Him, but unable to enter the kingdom, while they called Him LORD.

How can someone call Jesus "Lord?"

1Co 12:3 KJV ...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So, their miracles can be genuine. They are actually touched by God to know Jesus is Lord. They do the miracles in the "THY NAME," referring to Jesus. But, like the Corinthians, they were workers of iniquity.

Jesus asked Peter who Jesus was. Peter said this:

Mat 16:15-17 KJV He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter was BLESSED! Only the Father could tell Peter the identity of Jesus. Paul said only the Holy Ghost could cause people to say Jesus is LORD, like the people who called Him Lord and did miracles in His name did.

So, when Jesus said many would call Him LORD LORD, He meant many would be blessed to know His true identity. But the fact is that JESUS DID NOT KNOW THEIR IDENTITY!

Mat 7:23 KJV And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Did you realize what He said! They knew Jesus' identity by the Holy Ghost! But he never knew THEM!

Go back to Jesus and Peter. After Jesus told Peter he was blessed to know His identity, Jesus said this:

Mat 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Notice the FATHER told Peter who Jesus was. And then Jesus said "AND I SAY ALSO UNTO THEE..." In other words, NOW THE SON WILL SPEAK.... And look at what the SON SAYS:

He told Peter HIS IDENTITY! Peter the revelation from the Father shows you MY IDENTITY. But the revelation from the SON SHOWS YOU YOUR IDENTITY. And Jesus told SIMON his name was now PETER. And He said the gates of hell will not prevail against the CHURCH. And then HE SPOKE OF HIS DEATH.

Don't miss this. This is vital: The FATHER's words were about WHO JESUS IS. That's why the Lord Lord criers in Matt 7:21 call Him LORD! They are indeed blessed, BUT THEY MISS THE WORDS OF THE SON. While the Father's words show the identity of Jesus, the Son's words determine OUR IDENTITIES! And Peter liked the revelation from the Father, but when the SON SPOKE about hell and death and the cross, HE DID NOT LIKE THAT REVELATION!

Mat 16:21-23 KJV From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


How could Jesus say Peter was BLESSED and then turn around and call him SATAN?

It was because although Peter accepted the revelation of the Father, HE REJECTED THE WORDS OF THE SON, and it revealed PETER'S IDENTITY AS SATAN due to that rejection.

And this is the most powerful point of all!!!!....

That is the reason that AFTER the "Lord, Lord" criers appeal to their gifts and miracles in Jesus' name (LIKE YOU APPEALED TO THEM FOR THE CHARISMATICS, MICHAEL), for entrance into the kingdom, Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM, just Like Peter was called satan after He was blessed to know who Jesus was! And THEN JESUS SAID THESE WORDS...

Mat 7:24-27 KJV Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (26) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: (27) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Mat 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



What did Jesus tell Peter about THE WORDS OF THE SON? What did Jesus say after He said, "AND I ALSO SAY UNTO YOU..."? After Peter heard the words of the Father giving Jesus' identity, HE PROCEEDED TO GIVE SON'S WORDS ABOUT BUILDING ON THE ROCK and PETER'S IDENTITY. But because Peter REJECTED THE words from the SON, JESUS CALLED HIS IDENTITY SATAN! And Jesus said the same thing in Matt 7. Those who HEAR THE SON'S WORDS AND REJECT THEM do not BUILD ON THE ROCK, BUT ON SAND, and they FALL! he does not know THEM. Their identity is in a bad light when he calls them satan in one chapter and then he never knew them in another! Both chapters revolve around the chance you can know HIM, but he have bad things about YOU.

The Words of the SON are about the cross and the death and resurrection! They were about TAKING UP OUR CROSSES and DENYING OURSELVES. And if we heed THOSE WORDS, we are not only blessed to hear the words of the Father about WHO JESUS IS, but also BUILD ON A ROCK to NOT FALL! This is why the people who knew He was Lord by the Holy Ghost and performed wonders in His NAME since they knew who that name pointed to (Lord) WERE CALLED WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Charismania has leaders who are immoral and commit adultery (NOT ALL OF THEM I AGREE), and yet do wonderful works in Jesus' name. How can they work iniquity while working miracles???

Answer:: THE CORINTHIAN PRINCIPLE. All the gifts and yet babes. All the gifts and yet divisions. THEY DO NOT TAKE THE WORDS OF THE CROSS AND DENY THEIR FLESH.

So, don't come to us about miracles and genuine healings. COME TO US ABOUT SELF-DENIAL AND CARRYING THE CROSS!

Jesus said He never knew those miracle works...

But...

Joh 10:27 KJV [b][u]My sheep hear [color=red]my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


HIS SHEEP WHOM HE KNOWS HEAR HIS WORDS! Not just WHO HE IS but CARRY THE CROSS. And to FOLLOW JESUS is to CARRY OUR CROSSES, and that ensures we are NOT WORKERS OF INIQUITY!!!!

HE KNOWS SHEEP WHO FOLLOW HIM WITH CROSSES. The "Lord Lord" criers should have known you can work miracles in Jesus' name and they be of God, but not be able the enter the Kingdom unless they also hear the words of the SON ABOUT THE CROSS.

Jesus told the apostles to preach repentance, remission of sins IN HIS NAME and the promise of the Father.

Luk 24:47-49 KJV And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


They did!

Act 2:38-39 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


THESE ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS ABOUT THE CROSS in our lives! Death, burial and resurrection.

THANK GOD PETER FINALLY HEEDED THE SON'S WORDS AND PREACHED THEM.

Charismatics won't preach these words of Jesus! SOME will preach the cross and repentance, BUT NOT VERY MANY. But non preach acts 2:38.

Yes, I believe many of their works are genuine miracles of God. But not those that defy the word. Yet, even if all their miracles were of God, their salvation is not based upon those as Matt 7:21-23 proves. IT IS HEEDING JESUS' WORDS ABOUT THE CROSS. And NOT MANY DO!

Brother, reconsider your beliefs!

[mfblume]

Jesus also said THE APOSTLES' words would teach people how to believe on Jesus.

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these (apostles) alone, but for them also (us) which shall believe on me through their (apostles') word;


The apostles' words were given the seal of approval by Jesus.,

And the apostles knew that and said this:

1Jn 4:6 KJV We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


And the apostles preached Acts 2:38. And so, if you do not hear their words, as witnessed by Jesus' own words, themselves, then you are not of God. These charismatics may [perform wonderful works in Jesus' name BUT THEY DO NOT HEED THE APOSTLES' WORDS ABOUT SALVATION.

I am just finishing a new book ABOUT THIS!

John did not say those who perform actual miracles are known to be of the spirit of truth! Those who HEAR THEIR WORDS, which were the words of JESUS in Luke 24:47-49.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael Blume

That is the reason that AFTER the "Lord, Lord" criers appeal to their gifts and miracles in Jesus' name (LIKE YOU APPEALED TO THEM FOR THE CHARISMATICS, MICHAEL), for entrance into the kingdom, Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM, just Like Peter was called satan after He was blessed to know who Jesus was! And THEN JESUS SAID THESE WORDS...

What are you saying I said?

[Esaias]

If signs and wonders are given to confirm the Word preached, then how do signs and wonders have NO validation purposes?

Obviously they are not the "final word" on validity but they do weigh in do they not?

As for gold dust, dental work, stigmata, bleeding icons and holy burn marks on shrouds and tortillas, well...

[mfblume]

Michael Blume

What are you saying I said?

Not you. Sorry for the mistake. I meant William. Don't know why I thought his name was Michael. Sorry again. :)

[mfblume]

If signs and wonders are given to confirm the Word preached, then how do signs and wonders have NO validation purposes?

Obviously they are not the "final word" on validity but they do weigh in do they not?

As for gold dust, dental work, stigmata, bleeding icons and holy burn marks on shrouds and tortillas, well...

The issue was validating the salvation of those performing them.

[mfblume]

Anyone agree that miracles do not verify ones salvation?

[thephnxman]

Anyone agree that miracles do not verify ones salvation?

According to Matt. 7:22, neither prophesying, casting out devils, or even wonderful works in
his NAME are qualifiers for salvation. They do not attest to salvation, but to the power in
the NAME!

[Esaias]

Anyone agree that miracles do not verify ones salvation?

Verify? No scripture for that. But they DO provide evidence of belief (Mark 16 for example).

[mfblume]

Verify? No scripture for that. But they DO provide evidence of belief (Mark 16 for example).

Right. But the argument given to me was that miracles verify someone's salvation, so I used Matthew 7 to prove that is not necessity the case.

[mfblume]

According to Matt. 7:22, neither prophesying, casting out devils, or even wonderful works in
his NAME are qualifiers for salvation. They do not attest to salvation, but to the power in
the NAME!

Amen.

[KeptByTheWord]

Anyone agree that miracles do not verify ones salvation?

Yes. I saw this earlier, but didn't have a chance to respond, but then others responded in same. Just because the miraculous takes place, in no way should it automatically be attributed to the fact that God is approving of all that is taking place, as evidenced of course by Matt. 7, and too... Paul mentions that Satan is able to transform himself into a minister of light, and even perform miracles and wonders. We must not be led astray by the miraculous, if it does not add up to the principles of the Word.

[Jito463]

Anyone agree that miracles do not verify ones salvation?

I posted it right before you did, however you did a much more eloquent job than my brief post. Thank you for expounding on that. With my internet out at home, the only time I have to post right now is when I swing by the church.

[mfblume]

I posted it right before you did, however you did a much more eloquent job than my brief post. Thank you for expounding on that. With my internet out at home, the only time I have to post right now is when I swing by the church.

I noticed you did present the same passage in Matt 21. That is THE passage to deal with this issue. God bless!