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KeptByTheWord

01-23-2015, 04:06 PM

I have been studying through the book of Isaiah, and had gotten as far as Isa. 6 when I read this verse:

Isaiah 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Then there are also these verses:

Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

1 Kings 22:19-23 Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?" One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, "I will entice him." "By what means?" the LORD asked. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," he said. "You will succeed in enticing him," said the LORD. "Go and do it." So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.'"

Judges 13:21-22 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

.... and then you have John writing this:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Is this an obvious contradiction with Isaiah and several others in the OT saying that they had seen the Lord, and then John saying that Jesus said no man could see God and live?

PS: This is not a "trick" question. I am seeking discussion on the matter. Thanks!

Michael The Disciple

01-23-2015, 04:22 PM

KeptByTheWord

01-23-2015, 04:24 PM

Thank you Bro MTD! I don't have time to watch right now, but will try to later this evening or tomorrow a.m. (I am working)

I appreciate your input very much! :)

thephnxman

01-23-2015, 07:08 PM

I have been studying through the book of Isaiah, and had gotten as far as Isa. 6 when I read this verse:
Isaiah 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Then there are also these verses:
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
1 Kings 22:19-23 Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?" One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, "I will entice him." "By what means?" the LORD asked. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," he said. "You will succeed in enticing him," said the LORD. "Go and do it." So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.'"
Judges 13:21-22 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
.... and then you have John writing this:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Is this an obvious contradiction with Isaiah and several others in the OT saying that they had seen the Lord, and then John saying that Jesus said no man could see God and live?
PS: This is not a "trick" question. I am seeking discussion on the matter. Thanks!

There is no contradiction in scripture.
Isa. 6:6__has the answer: a "vision" and a coal from the altar. One coal (one
sacrifice) touching that which governs the body (the tongue).

Ex. 33:23__ The backside is the weakest side; God’s weakest side is his humanity.
"...the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger
than men."

I Ki. 22:18__is a vision and a PROPHECY.

Judges 13:21-22__What is a theophany. Not really God, but a semblance…

John 1:18__"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is
in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Jesus spoke truth: no man
has SEEN God directly, except the ONE who is revealing the Father's will.

Praxeas

01-23-2015, 09:41 PM

I have been studying through the book of Isaiah, and had gotten as far as Isa. 6 when I read this verse:
Isaiah 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.Then there are also these verses:
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

1 Kings 22:19-23 Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?" One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, "I will entice him." "By what means?" the LORD asked. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," he said. "You will succeed in enticing him," said the LORD. "Go and do it." So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.'"

Judges 13:21-22 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. .... and then you have John writing this:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Is this an obvious contradiction with Isaiah and several others in the OT saying that they had seen the Lord, and then John saying that Jesus said no man could see God and live?

PS: This is not a "trick" question. I am seeking discussion on the matter. Thanks!
Isaiah saw a vision

On Judges, NET bible explains
45 tn Or "God." Some take the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים ('ĕlōhim) as the divine name ("God") here, but this seems unlikely since Jdg_13:21 informs us that Manoah realized this was the Lord's messenger, not God himself. Of course, he may be exaggerating for the sake of emphasis. Another option, the one followed in the translation, understands Manoah to be referring to a lesser deity. The term אֱלֹהִים ('ĕlōhim) is sometimes used of an individual deity other than the Lord (see BDB 43 s.v. 2.a). One cannot assume that Manoah was a theologically sophisticated monotheist.

Praxeas

01-23-2015, 09:43 PM

Some thoughts on "Face of God"

The Face of God.

Mat 18:10 "See that you do not disdain one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Moses spoke to God "Face to face"
Exo 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

YET was told AFTER wards that if he were to SEE God's face he would die

Exo 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Somewhere in the above, the word “face” has to be a figure of speech or otherwise it’s a contradiction.

This is NOT a Oneness issue. I have quoted Trinitarian scholars to support this. They all agree with Oneness that God is an Omnipresent Spirit and that such descriptions are either anthropomorphic OR figures of speech.

For example, the phrase "Seek the face of God" refers to seeking God's favor. That is a figure of speech. Why would the bible instruct us to seek that which we can't see?

Hebrew
The word for FACE in Hebrew is Paniym and has many meanings and uses. Often it's used to refer to a Person or the word Face is used as an idiom or figure of speech for Person
Here, in the KJV the word Paniym is translated Presence

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Yet if you read the context, they translate the same word “face” 2 verses earlier

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Notice two things here. The same word in the bible is translated two different ways in the same use. They are Face and Presence. Why? because “Face” is a figure of speech for Personal presence. Also notice that the same word is applied to the earth, yet the earth does not have a literal human face.

Sometimes it helps to not rely on the KJV. Many newer translations now understand these figures of speech and translate them appropriately

Thus we have in other translations

ESV Gen 4:14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

Notice the word “face” with earth is no longer “face”?

So "face to face" expresses a Person to Person encounter. It stresses Personal relationship Moses had with God. He stood in God’s presence.

So for example when God's Glory cloud filled the Temple, God's "face" was there. God's Presence was there.

David said
KJV Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

The Hebrew word for Presence is again Paniym (face)

Yet the KJV translates it Presence. David also expresses that God’s Spirit, God’s face/presence, is Omnipresent. He can’t go anywhere, where God’s face is not. This does not mean a literal face as in a human face. It refers to God’s Spirit presence.

Greek
In Greek the word for face is prosopon. Prosopon is the precursor to the Latin Persona. Persona originally referred to the Mask of an actor in a play. By extension Persona refers to the character an actor portrayed in a play. So the Latins used Hypostasis to refer to the way we use the word Person today, the underlying "Ego" or "Self" that animates the outward Persona.

Hypostasis means substance, or that which lies beneath. Beneath the Persona was a Hypostasis (Person). The Person or Hypostasis put on a mask. Eventually the language evolved and Persona became Person and took on a Philosophical meaning to refer to the underlying Person or Hypostasis.

So today the word Person does not mean exactly what it did back then.

The word Prosopon, before the Latin and Ecclesiastical evolution, just meant face but was often used as Paniym to refer to presence

Prosopon can mean face or continence. According to Kittle’s theological Dictionary of the NT, Prosopon had the same meaning or use as Persona, to refer to the mask of an actor in a play.

Both words can mean Person but the whole Person you see, not the underlying part you do not see. So “face” can simply refer to Person or to the Presence of that person.

Prosopon was used by the Jews in the LXX and other uses later on. We need to be mindful that the NT Gospels were spoken by Jesus during this age and to Jews

So they would use the word prosopon consistently with how the used Paniym

Kittle notes
a. Frequently prósōpon denotes God’s countenance in anthropomorphic expressions. God’s lifting his countenance means grace and peace. Prayer is made that his face may shine on Israel (Num. 6:25). Hiding his face denotes withdrawal of grace (Dt. 32:20). In penal wrath God turns his face against sinners (Ps. 34:16). Seeing God’s face is a special privilege (Gen. 32:3). Because of God’s holiness it involves peril; hence even Moses sees God’s glory only from behind (Ex. 32:23). God reveals himself through his word, not through seeing his face.

b. Various cultic expressions use the term. Thus “to see God’s face” is to visit the sanctuary; believers seek God’s face (Ps. 42:3; Zech. 8:21–22). The accent here is not on seeing God but on assurance of his presence and favor. In Ps. 105:4 seeking God’s face is a daily procedure; it is a matter of supreme concern in Ps. 27:8. The holy bread is the bread of the prosōpon in 1 Sam. 21:6, i.e., the bread of the presence.

Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (951). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.

Later Rabbinical use (Closer to the time of Jesus) used it to refer to the Shekinah. The Shekinah was a word to refer to the Glory of God, specific examples are the Cloud that settled on the mountain or in the Temple when Solomon dedicated it. It therefore referred to God’s Presence

The wicked see it to receive punishment; the righteous see the face of the Shekinah. To see or greet the face of the Shekinah is also a rabbinic phrase for temple or (later) synagogue worship. Those who pray and study also greet God’s face inasmuch as he draws near to them..

Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (951). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.

In the NT, aside from meaning face, it can be used figuratively for Meeting a person
Paul uses the word prosopon here

ESV Gal 1:22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.

Where the KJV reads “face”

KJV Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judea which were in Christ:

Notice Paul uses the word “unknown”. This was about knowing Paul, not seeing his face.

Finally, with respect to the verse where the angels see God’s face, the word for “see” has other meanings too. It often can mean “perceive”. It can mean “become aware” or “take notice of”. Kittle says it can, besides meaning to see, refer to Intellectual or spiritual perception

Other commentaries recognize the figure of speech for “being in the presence of God”.

The whole issue of having personal angels was a common Jewish belief at this time, proving again Jesus is referring to Jewish beliefs and customs. Given that we need to understand these beliefs within the framework of Judaism. Jesus was speaking to Jews. Understanding WHO was speaking and to WHOM is one of the first steps in understanding what was being said. When you exclude these elements and read the bible in a vacuum you will not get the real intended meaning of the words

This is who so many Trinitarians today often appear to be separating the persons of the trinity into 3 beings instead of 1 being, because of a literal reading of the bible by ignoring the language in the context of how they were used at this time

Does the earth have a face? Yes according to the bible. But it’s not a face like a man. Does God have a face? The only face like a man God has is in the face of Jesus Christ

Face, when used of God, refers to His presence or it can refer idiomatically to acquiring or seeking His favor.

Paul describes God’s presence in heaven as a blinding light no man can see or approach

1Ti 6:15 — whose appearing the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the right time.
1Ti 6:16 He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

The knowledge of God is in the face of Jesus
2Co 4:6 For God, who said "Let light shine out of darkness," is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ.

These verses that Trinitarians use to show God has a face like a man are not intended to do that when read in the context of the language, the OT expressions and the Judaism of Jesus and other Jews at the time.

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 06:37 AM

Excellent study.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040704085254/http://mikeblume.com/drysd15a.htm#PRE-EXISTENCE

Lafon

01-24-2015, 08:25 AM

Excellent study.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040704085254/http://mikeblume.com/drysd15a.htm#PRE-EXISTENCE

I found it to be thoroughly corrupt with many errors .... e.g., in one instance it was stated that the Spirit left the body of Christ so it could die on the cross, and then 3 days afterwards re-entered and resurrected it from the dead. NO scriptural passage was quoted in support of this statement, and, in fact, there are none, for this did NOT occur!

Lafon

01-24-2015, 08:28 AM

An excellent and thorough explanation, Praxeas. Thanks!

thephnxman

01-24-2015, 09:10 AM

some thoughts on "face of god"
the face of god.

mat 18:10 "see that you do not disdain one of these little ones. For i tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my father in heaven.
Moses spoke to god "face to face"
exo 33:11 thus the lord used to speak to moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When moses turned again into the camp, his assistant joshua the son of nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Yet was told after wards that if he were to see god's face he would die
exo 33:20 but," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me
somewhere in the above, the word “face” has to be a figure of speech or otherwise it’s a contradiction.
This is not a oneness issue. I have quoted trinitarian scholars to support this. They all agree with oneness that god is an omnipresent spirit and that such descriptions are either anthropomorphic or figures of speech.
For example, the phrase "seek the face of god" refers to seeking god's favor. That is a figure of speech. Why would the bible instruct us to seek that which we can't see?
hebrew
the word for face in hebrew is paniym and has many meanings and uses. Often it's used to refer to a person or the word face is used as an idiom or figure of speech for person
here, in the kjv the word paniym is translated presence
gen 4:16 and cain went out from the presence of the lord, and dwelt in the land of nod, on the east of eden.
Yet if you read the context, they translate the same word “face” 2 verses earlier
gen 4:14 behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall i be hid; and i shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 and the lord said unto him, therefore whosoever slayeth cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the lord set a mark upon cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
gen 4:16 and cain went out from the presence of the lord, and dwelt in the land of nod, on the east of eden.
Notice two things here. The same word in the bible is translated two different ways in the same use. They are face and presence. Why? Because “face” is a figure of speech for personal presence. Also notice that the same word is applied to the earth, yet the earth does not have a literal human face.
Sometimes it helps to not rely on the kjv. Many newer translations now understand these figures of speech and translate them appropriately
thus we have in other translations
esv gen 4:14 behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face i shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
notice the word “face” with earth is no longer “face”?
So "face to face" expresses a person to person encounter. It stresses personal relationship moses had with god. He stood in god’s presence.
So for example when god's glory cloud filled the temple, god's "face" was there. God's presence was there.
David said
kjv psa 139:7 whither shall i go from thy spirit? Or whither shall i flee from thy presence?
the hebrew word for presence is again paniym (face)
yet the kjv translates it presence. David also expresses that god’s spirit, god’s face/presence, is omnipresent. He can’t go anywhere, where god’s face is not. This does not mean a literal face as in a human face. It refers to god’s spirit presence.
greek
in greek the word for face is prosopon. Prosopon is the precursor to the latin persona. Persona originally referred to the mask of an actor in a play. By extension persona refers to the character an actor portrayed in a play. So the latins used hypostasis to refer to the way we use the word person today, the underlying "ego" or "self" that animates the outward persona.
Hypostasis means substance, or that which lies beneath. Beneath the persona was a hypostasis (person). The person or hypostasis put on a mask. Eventually the language evolved and persona became person and took on a philosophical meaning to refer to the underlying person or hypostasis.
So today the word person does not mean exactly what it did back then.
The word prosopon, before the latin and ecclesiastical evolution, just meant face but was often used as paniym to refer to presence
prosopon can mean face or continence. According to kittle’s theological dictionary of the nt, prosopon had the same meaning or use as persona, to refer to the mask of an actor in a play.

both words can mean person but the whole person you see, not the underlying part you do not see. So “face” can simply refer to person or to the presence of that person.
Prosopon was used by the jews in the lxx and other uses later on. We need to be mindful that the nt gospels were spoken by jesus during this age and to jews
so they would use the word prosopon consistently with how the used paniym
kittle notes
a. Frequently prósōpon denotes god’s countenance in anthropomorphic expressions. God’s lifting his countenance means grace and peace. Prayer is made that his face may shine on israel (num. 6:25). Hiding his face denotes withdrawal of grace (dt. 32:20). In penal wrath god turns his face against sinners (ps. 34:16). Seeing god’s face is a special privilege (gen. 32:3). Because of god’s holiness it involves peril; hence even moses sees god’s glory only from behind (ex. 32:23). god reveals himself through his word, not through seeing his face.
B. Various cultic expressions use the term. Thus “to see god’s face” is to visit the sanctuary; believers seek god’s face (ps. 42:3; zech. 8:21–22). The accent here is not on seeing god but on assurance of his presence and favor. In ps. 105:4 seeking god’s face is a daily procedure; it is a matter of supreme concern in ps. 27:8. The holy bread is the bread of the prosōpon in 1 sam. 21:6, i.e., the bread of the presence.
Kittel, g., friedrich, g., & bromiley, g. W. (1985). Theological dictionary of the new testament (951). Grand rapids, mi: W.b. Eerdmans.
Later rabbinical use (closer to the time of jesus) used it to refer to the shekinah. The shekinah was a word to refer to the glory of god, specific examples are the cloud that settled on the mountain or in the temple when solomon dedicated it. It therefore referred to god’s presence
the wicked see it to receive punishment; the righteous see the face of the shekinah. To see or greet the face of the shekinah is also a rabbinic phrase for temple or (later) synagogue worship. Those who pray and study also greet god’s face inasmuch as he draws near to them..
Kittel, g., friedrich, g., & bromiley, g. W. (1985). Theological dictionary of the new testament (951). Grand rapids, mi: W.b. Eerdmans.
In the nt, aside from meaning face, it can be used figuratively for meeting a person
paul uses the word prosopon here
esv gal 1:22 and i was still unknown in person to the churches of judea that are in christ.
Where the kjv reads “face”
kjv gal 1:22 and was unknown by face unto the churches of judea which were in christ:
Notice paul uses the word “unknown”. This was about knowing paul, not seeing his face.
Finally, with respect to the verse where the angels see god’s face, the word for “see” has other meanings too. It often can mean “perceive”. It can mean “become aware” or “take notice of”. Kittle says it can, besides meaning to see, refer to intellectual or spiritual perception
other commentaries recognize the figure of speech for “being in the presence of god”.
The whole issue of having personal angels was a common jewish belief at this time, proving again jesus is referring to jewish beliefs and customs. Given that we need to understand these beliefs within the framework of judaism. Jesus was speaking to jews. Understanding who was speaking and to whom is one of the first steps in understanding what was being said. When you exclude these elements and read the bible in a vacuum you will not get the real intended meaning of the words

this is who so many trinitarians today often appear to be separating the persons of the trinity into 3 beings instead of 1 being, because of a literal reading of the bible by ignoring the language in the context of how they were used at this time
does the earth have a face? Yes according to the bible. But it’s not a face like a man. Does god have a face? The only face like a man god has is in the face of jesus christ
face, when used of god, refers to his presence or it can refer idiomatically to acquiring or seeking his favor.
Paul describes god’s presence in heaven as a blinding light no man can see or approach
1ti 6:15 — whose appearing the blessed and only sovereign, the king of kings and lord of lords, will reveal at the right time.
1ti 6:16 he alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.
The knowledge of god is in the face of jesus
2co 4:6 for god, who said "let light shine out of darkness," is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of god in the face of christ.
These verses that trinitarians use to show god has a face like a man are not intended to do that when read in the context of the language, the ot expressions and the judaism of jesus and other jews at the time.

Or when read under the anointing of the Holy Spirit!

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 11:21 AM

"The 'Angel of the Lord' represented the Great Eternal Spirit that filled the Universe. The Spirit of God was present everywhere. The Angel 'Person' of God was God in One Place. Please notice that everytime the Angel of the Lord appeared or spoke to anyone it was God Himself 'in person'... Before the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord God existed in two definite ways. God was manifested as an Angelic Spirit 'Person' and as an omnipresent Spirit, that is present everywhere all the time. His 'Person' was in the form of a man, and His eternal Spirit was without form, body or parts" (Theodore Fitch, The Deity of Jesus, Pentecostal Publishing House, Hazelwood, MO n.d., p. 4).

"Before the incarnation, the fullness of God dwell in a Spirit body which was in the form of a man. This beautiful angel body was made flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. This made the God-Angel a God-man... If the Word or 'Person' of God was made flesh, then the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father.. The Word that was God, was 'made over' into a flesh man (John 1:14). When God the Word was made flesh, he became a Son, but still remained God, he still remained the same Person... The angel Person of the Lord from Heaven is now called the Son of God" (Fitch, p. 22,23).

The prophets and others saw God in his visible image, the LOGOS. The angel of Gods Presence.

9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

The "form" is a much bigger issue than the "face".

Abiding Now

01-24-2015, 02:44 PM

I found it to be thoroughly corrupt with many errors .... e.g., in one instance it was stated that the Spirit left the body of Christ so it could die on the cross, and then 3 days afterwards re-entered and resurrected it from the dead. NO scriptural passage was quoted in support of this statement, and, in fact, there are none, for this did NOT occur!

Go ahead, my friend, tell us how you really feel. :D

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 03:47 PM

What did Jacob see?

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.

The word or Greek "Logos" was both with God and was God. I will show what in the Tanakh was both with God and was God. In doing so we can understand what John understood.

Jacob encountered something that both was "with God" and also "was God".

24: And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25: And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26: And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27: And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28: And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29: And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30: And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Gen. 32:24-30

Jacob had a life long relationship with this "man" he wrestled with and who changed his name to Jacob.

We see some clarifying of this man who Jacob believed was God in the book of Hosea.

2: The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
3: He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5: Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. Hosea 12:2-4

The "man" Jacob wrestled here is called an angel. Angels are "messengers" in scripture. A messenger is WITH GOD. Yet this special messenger or angel is said to BE GOD.

The Logos was with God. But the Logos was God. Remember?

On his deathbed Jacob said this angel was his God.

15: And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

Very directly Jacob says his God was the angel who appeared to him through his life. As a messenger the Angel was with God. Yet Jacob says the Angel WAS HIS GOD.

The Logos was with God. The Logos was God. The Logos was the form of the omnipresent invisible God who filled the Universe. There was a form. The form was The Angel Of YHWH.

KeptByTheWord

01-24-2015, 03:49 PM

I am listening now to the video by Bro. MTD. Very interesting points raised by all participating in discussion...

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 03:49 PM

The next important Biblical character to know this special messenger was Moses.

1: Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2: And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3: And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4: And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5: And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6: Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

When Moses looks into the bush he sees the angel of the Lord. Then it is God himself, YHWH who begins speaking to him. An angel is WITH GOD. Yet this angel WAS GOD. This is the same angel Jacob said was his God. He tells Moses "I am the God of thy fathers Abraham, Issac, and Jacob".

There is a doctrine among Oneness teachers of "theophanies". They teach that they were an appearance of God. Usually they mention the burning bush as one. Yet this is not true. The bush was not the theophany but the angel in the bush was himself YHWH.

The other one usually mentioned is the pillar of fire. Was it a theophany?

19: And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20: And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
21: And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22: And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
23: And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24: And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, Exodus 14:19-24

We see the real theophany or "appearance" of God was again the angel of YHWH. Though verse 19 says the angel was in the cloud verse 24 informs us that YHWH HIMSELF looked through the pillar of fire and of the cloud.

I say the only theophany in scripture was the angel of YHWH. It was with God. It also WAS GOD. It was the image of the invisible God.

Why did God need an image anyway?

27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 1 Kings 8:27

Whatever "spirit" is the substance of YHWH is more vast than all the Galaxies he created. How could anyone see that? Its impossible. Thats why scripture says "no one has seen God at any time". Thats why he needed an image. We might say a "messenger" for himself. True there were millions of angels but this particular one was fashioned from the omnipresent spirit of YHWH to be his image or form that he might come and go in his creation.

Before the beginning YHWH had no need of an image. There was no one else to see him! But in the beginning was the Logos. The visible image. This was with the omnipresent spirit. Yet it was a portion of that same spirit fashioned into am image or form of it.

I believe this is what John wrote about in his opening few verses. This is that form that God assumed to be WITH HIMSELF. I say this is the missing piece of todays Oneness teachers. It was taught this way by some of the outstanding Oneness teachers at the beginning of the movement back to this truth in the 20th century. It has been generally discarded for some reason over time.

For the life of me I dont know why. It is the very doctrine that explains to us what John meant when he said Logos was WITH GOD but also WAS GOD.

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 03:53 PM

All Israel believed the angel was YHWH.

In addition to what I have written it is necessary to show that even as Jacob the Father of the people of Israel believed this angel "messenger" was YHWH his God so did the entire nation.

When Israel thought of God they thought of the angel of YHWH. The scriptures are written in such a way we can know this. Hundreds of years after Jacob and Moses encountered YHWH in his angelic form Zechariah wrote this by the Holy Spirit:

8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Zech. 12:8

They would be like God, that is like the angel of YHWH. Here its clear that the angel and YHWH are linked together in the inspiration of scripture. I think John 1:1 answers to this. The Logos was with God. Yet simultaneously WAS GOD.

The two modes of existing doctrine does not just apply to the New Testament. In the Tanakh God existed in one way as omnipresent spirit so vast no creation has ever seen him. That is his essential being.

In another mode of existing he took part of that same spirit and fashioned a visible, angelic form of himself. In this form he could sit upon a throne. He could teach the other hundreds of millions of created angels who he was and what they were. He could walk with man in the garden or come to to see what the children of men were up to when they built a tower to reach Heaven.

This was the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning. Not a second co equal person but himself revealing himself. Kind of like his thoughts were wrapped around by this spirit body.

Another important example is found in Malachi.

1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1-2

We know the first messenger in verse 1 is John the Baptist. Then we see who he was preparing the way for. The Lord they sought. Although the Hebrew is Adon it clearly refers to YHWH himself in this scripture. Just as clearly we see that he himself is called "messenger of the covenant".

The same messenger that met with Moses and gave the old covenant to Israel was going to follow John Baptist to bring in the new covenant. And very dramatically at least to me we read that THE TEMPLE belongs to the messenger!

This confirms that Israel saw this particular messenger/angel as himself being their Elohim or YHWH. The temple of YHWH was HIS TEMPLE.

The messenger was WITH GOD. Yet the messenger WAS GOD.

John the Baptist confirmed this was about Jesus.

28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. John 3:28

John was sent to prepare the way for YHWH even the messenger of the covenant.

Michael The Disciple

01-24-2015, 04:05 PM

John Patterson in his book God In Christ Jesus taught this truth many years ago. John Ecstat taught in in the 60's and 70's. I still have a CD where he teaches it. It is the most awesome teaching I ever heard on any Bible topic period.

I personally came in contact with it in 1980 while attending a Charismatic Church. They had recently come to baptize in Jesus name. The Pastor had somehow gotten hold of John Ecstats teaching tapes and found the truth. I was blessed to first hear it from him.

I also am very high on Ross Drysdales "If Ye Know These Things". This represents IMO the last great Testament of accurate, rightly divided teaching of the Logos. Matter of fact it is the best Oneness book in general I have ever read. Im sure there are others out there but I have only known a few who still hold the angel of the Lord teaching.

Praxeas

01-24-2015, 06:01 PM

What did Jacob see?

The same thing that Arkansas?

Praxeas

01-24-2015, 06:02 PM

I am listening now to the video by Bro. MTD. Very interesting points raised by all participating in discussion...
Did you see my two posts?

BTW It can be argued the Angel of the LORD was just that...an Angel. He spoke for the LORD and sometimes the LORD spoke directly through him..not too dissimilar from prophets

KeptByTheWord

01-25-2015, 03:23 PM

Trying to sift through the information from MTD's video and Prax's post.

MTD, correct me if I've gotten it wrong, but it seems that you are of the understanding that what the prophets and those in the OT saw when they say they saw the Lord in the OT was actually the angel of the Lord or Ya, which would not be a theophany per se, but actually God manifesting himself in the form of an angel.

Prax's opinion is that the angel of the Lord was just an angel speaking for the Lord, and not the Lord himself, and that Isaiah saw a vision, and others who are said to have to see the Lord through the OT were just seeing a vision or the face of God, but not the entirety of God.

I've never actually heard the teaching that the Lord manifested himself as an angel throughout the OT, and then that same angel form was transformed in the NT to being manifested as Jesus in the NT. That is a very fascinating understanding.

Many times we limit GOD by our finite understanding, and fleshly reasoning. I do not see that God is limited to only one form of manifesting Himself, which makes me lean towards MTD's teaching more. It would make much more sense than anything the Trini's have to say about the triune God, manifested in three different persons or beings.

It would make sense to understand that the folks of the OT could see God in the form of His angel, but they also understood through prophetic words that at some point in time they would see the angel no longer, but the son of God would be born on the earth to fully redeem mankind from his fallen state.

KeptByTheWord

01-25-2015, 03:23 PM

This discussion brings up another interesting question... was Melchizedek a theophany or the angel of the Lord?