The son’s eternal kingdom?

[thephnxman]

“Who, being in the physical image of God, thought it not unlawful or dishonest to be equal
with God: But divested (disrobed) himself of his glory, and took upon himself the form of a
servant, and was made in the image and figure of men:…”

God humbled himself to the uttermost, into a figure of a man; and thereby also limited himself to his
spoken words. It is by his words through man that God would defeated Satan!
Will God abide in the son, Jesus, forever? Or will the kingdom of the son be eternal due to the sons and
daughters He has “adopted” into is kingdom?

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with
thee before the world was.”

[Esaias]

God does not merely abide in the Son, for the Son IS "God manifested in the flesh". If God ever separated from the Son then the Son would not exist. The Word became flesh. The Word of the Lord abideth forever.

Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, today, and FOREVER.

[Monterrey]

“Who, being in the physical image of God, thought it not unlawful or dishonest to be equal
with God: But divested (disrobed) himself of his glory, and took upon himself the form of a
servant, and was made in the image and figure of men:…”

God humbled himself to the uttermost, into a figure of a man; and thereby also limited himself to his
spoken words. It is by his words through man that God would defeated Satan!
Will God abide in the son, Jesus, forever? Or will the kingdom of the son be eternal due to the sons and
daughters He has “adopted” into is kingdom?

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with
thee before the world was.”

Great question!!

I eagerly await the upcoming responses.

[Aquila]

Behold, I show you a mystery...

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Father and the Son exist in an eternal and coinherent state of being. Thus, Jesus is a man who is also God. And the Father is God who (in Christ) is also man.

See attachment:

[thephnxman]

God does not merely abide in the Son, for the Son IS "God manifested in the flesh". If God ever separated from the Son then the Son would not exist. The Word became flesh. The Word of the Lord abideth forever.
Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, today, and FOREVER.

"God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself..."

I believe that "...the Word was God..."; and not only that, but that "...a body hast thou prepared me."
I do not want. nor intend, to separate the Word and God! I understand that God can be manifest as the
son without His glory, but not necessarily without His POWER! Nevertheless, was the POWER not
subject to the Father? "...the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwells in me, he does the works." I also believe that the Son's kingdom will abide forever.

It is in that context that I'm asking: will He reign in his physical image forever; or is the kingdom
forever because WE will reign and judge angels with His POWER and AUTHORITY?
Now this: will the Son divest (disrobe) himself of his humanity to be clothed "...with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was."???

"... and if there be any praise, think on these things."

[Aquila]

Why did God make Adam and Eve male and female? The bottom line... so that God Himself might be born into this physical reality as a man, the man Christ Jesus. This is all about Jesus. God manifest. God revealed. God realized. God in relationship with His creation. God experienced. The man Jesus Christ is the flesh and blood tabernacle of the transcendent and almighty God.

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray to and speak to His Heavenly Father. He'd worship His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. You'd truly know Him as a man. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is far more than a mere man. He is also... God.

Keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a mere vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, so inseparable, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions make Christ a mere prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

[Aquila]

There is one more level to this "Oneness". However, until the oneness of God in Christ is properly understood... we cannot move into, or properly experience, this next spiritual reality. At this point (and few have reached it), the revelation of Oneness transcends Christology and pervades soteriology. For Oneness is the very essence of our eternal salvation and the very source of all power and authority.

[thephnxman]

(1) Why did God make Adam and Eve male and female? The bottom line... so that God Himself might be born into this physical reality as a man, the man Christ Jesus. This is all about Jesus. God manifest. God revealed. God realized. God in relationship with His creation. God experienced. The man Jesus Christ is the flesh and blood tabernacle of the transcendent and almighty God.

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray to and speak to His Heavenly Father. He'd worship His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. You'd truly know Him as a man. (2) However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is far more than a mere man. He is also... God.

Keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a mere vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, so inseparable, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

(3) No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions make Christ a mere prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. (4) Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

(1) Right. For procreation: to have a lineage in which to be born, and to have sons and
daughters with Him. And yes, Jesus is the tabernacle prophesied in the Old Testament.

(2) Yes, God was "...in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...". However, it is
"...the MAN Christ Jesus..." who will judge all things. It is God's will that MAN operate in
the same capacity as the Son.
(3) God doesn't need to be "elevated". "...God has made that same Jesus, whom you
have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(4) Was the BODY the tabernacle of God?

Was God manifest IN the flesh, or AS the flesh?

[Aquila]

(1) Right. For procreation: to have a lineage in which to be born, and to have sons and
daughters with Him. And yes, Jesus is the tabernacle prophesied in the Old Testament.

(2) Yes, God was "...in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...". However, it is
"...the MAN Christ Jesus..." who will judge all things. It is God's will that MAN operate in
the same capacity as the Son.
(3) God doesn't need to be "elevated". "...God has made that same Jesus, whom you
have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(4) Was the BODY the tabernacle of God?

Was God manifest IN the flesh, or AS the flesh?

You'll notice the term "in" repeatedly used throughout Scripture. But this doesn't mean "in" as in a hand "in" a glove. It means "in" as in mixing a glass of water and a glass of wine. The water is in the wine, and the wine is in the water. There is a union of being. God was manifest in, as, and through the man Jesus Christ. As a result, that man was not just a man... He was also God.

But again, beyond this, there is another level to this "Oneness". Once one is ready for this next level of understanding, the revelation of Oneness transcends Christology and one realizes that it pervades soteriology. For Oneness is the very essence of our eternal salvation and the very source of all power and authority.

[thephnxman]

You'll notice the term "in" repeatedly used throughout Scripture. But this doesn't mean "in" as in a hand "in" a glove. It means "in" as in mixing a glass of water and a glass of wine. The water is in the wine, and the wine is in the water. There is a union of being. God was manifest in, as, and through the man Jesus Christ. As a result, that man was not just a man... He was also God.
But again, beyond this, there is another level to this "Oneness". Once one is ready for this next level of understanding, the revelation of Oneness transcends Christology and one realizes that it pervades soteriology. For Oneness is the very essence of our eternal salvation and the very source of all power and authority.

So you're presenting the Lord in the same context as the trinity doctrine.

Of course you don't use the word "trinity": but the idea seems the same. But my question was:

Will God abide in the son, Jesus, forever? Or will the kingdom of the son be eternal due
to the sons and daughters He has “adopted” into is kingdom?

[Esaias]

"God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself..."

I believe that "...the Word was God..."; and not only that, but that "...a body hast thou prepared me."
I do not want. nor intend, to separate the Word and God! I understand that God can be manifest as the
son without His glory, but not necessarily without His POWER! Nevertheless, was the POWER not
subject to the Father? "...the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwells in me, he does the works." I also believe that the Son's kingdom will abide forever.

It is in that context that I'm asking: will He reign in his physical image forever; or is the kingdom
forever because WE will reign and judge angels with His POWER and AUTHORITY?
Now this: will the Son divest (disrobe) himself of his humanity to be clothed "...with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was."???

"... and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Jesus will be both God and man forever.

Jesus will never divest himself of his humanity or cease to be human.

He has been glorified with the pre-incarnate glory already - do we not worship him as God? Is he not the very person of God? What other God is there besides Jesus Christ?

The kingdom is eternal because God is eternal. We will be immortal (and thus eternal ie "age-abiding") because God, through Christ, is in us by the Spirit.

[Aquila]

So you're presenting the Lord in the same context as the trinity doctrine.

Of course you don't use the word "trinity": but the idea seems the same. But my question was:

Will God abide in the son, Jesus, forever? Or will the kingdom of the son be eternal due
to the sons and daughters He has “adopted” into is kingdom?

How could you draw that conclusion? In the Trinity doctrine, the Son is a distinct and divine hypostatic reality, existing in perichoretic relationship with the Father, who is Himself a distinct and divine hypostatic reality. Also, they are cosubstantiative, existing as a singular essence.

What I said could in NO way be construed to mean the same thing. Unitarianism would be closer to what I described than Trinitarian doctrine.

[thephnxman]

How could you draw that conclusion? In the Trinity doctrine, the Son is a distinct and divine hypostatic reality, existing in perichoretic relationship with the Father, who is Himself a distinct and divine hypostatic reality. Also, they are cosubstantiative, existing as a singular essence.
What I said could in NO way be construed to mean the same thing. Unitarianism would be closer to what I described than Trinitarian doctrine.

Well, I've heard so many trinies explain their concept in so many different ways...

[thephnxman]

Jesus (1) will be both God and man forever.
Jesus will never divest himself of his humanity or cease to be human.
He has been glorified with the (2) pre-incarnate glory already - do we not worship him as God? Is he not the (3) very person of God? What other God is there besides (4) Jesus Christ?
(5) The kingdom is eternal because God is eternal. We will be immortal (and thus eternal ie "age-abiding") because God, through Christ, is in us by the Spirit.

That's a very good response.

Now let me ask:
(1) you said "there WILL be"... He's not now? (But I believe you mean NOW);
(2) Jesus (the man) has been glorified "...with the glory I had with you before the world
was"? That is, to the SPOKEN word before it became flesh?
(3) Yes: I also believe that Jesus is "...the express IMAGE of His person...";
(4) I believe in his NAME. Is it the same, to sayJesus is God, and God's NAME is Jesus?
(5) God's kingdom was eternal even without the presence of sons; is the Son's kingdom the same?

When we judge angels, will it be with Jesus?

[Aquila]

Well, I've heard so many trinies explain their concept in so many different ways...

The vast majority of "Trinitarians" that I know explain the doctrine of the Trinity in a modalistic fashion. They're really closer to Oneness than Trinity, they just don't realize it. lol

[Esaias]

That's a very good response.

Now let me ask:
(1) you said "there WILL be"... He's not now? (But I believe you mean NOW);
(2) Jesus (the man) has been glorified "...with the glory I had with you before the world
was"? That is, to the SPOKEN word before it became flesh?
(3) Yes: I also believe that Jesus is "...the express IMAGE of His person...";
(4) I believe in his NAME. Is it the same, to sayJesus is God, and God's NAME is Jesus?
(5) God's kingdom was eternal even without the presence of sons; is the Son's kingdom the same?

When we judge angels, will it be with Jesus?

1. I meant he will continue to be both man and God forever.

2. Jesus the man has been glorified with the glory that the Word had before becoming flesh. The man has been proven to be the Word incarnate, the Self-Revelation of God Himself to mankind. He is no longer viewed as merely a rabbi, but the " Son of God with power".

3. ...

4. If Jesus Christ is God then God's name is Jesus Christ.

5. The kingdom of the Son is the kingdom of God. It is eternal because God is eternal. There will, however, be a change in the administration at or right after the judgment, "he will deliver the kingdom" to God etc. I do not pretend to know all the implications of that change.

(6.) We will judge angels... and the world... yet all judgment has been committed to the Son. I believe our judging will not be as final judge but as administers of God's judgment (as the JUDGES were in Israel of old).

[Lafon]

But my question was:

Will God abide in the son, Jesus, forever? Or will the kingdom of the son be eternal due
to the sons and daughters He has “adopted” into is kingdom?

First, I believe it needful to note that when referring to the Christ child named Jesus, and His relation to God, one should ALWAYS insure that the first letter of the word "Son" appears in the upper case, for in so doing it refers to a specific, unique human as opposed to an ordinary person. The language of the Bible ALWAYS makes this distinction, and so should we! As an ordinary human being, like you and I, in the language of the Bible Christ Jesus is always referred to as the "son of man" (note that that word "son" appears in the lower case), whereas when referring to Him as the only begotten of the Father, He is ALWAYS noted as being the "Son of God."

Having stated that, I also believe it important to note the Scriptures contains NO language which describes a "kingdom of the son," nor does it ever mention a "kingdom of the Son." It is now, ALWAYS has been, and it shall ALWAYS be "the kingdom of God"!

If my understanding is correct of that which Paul the apostle wrote concerning the reign of Christ Jesus, the man, as King of kings and Lord of lords, as set forth in the words of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [KJV], then there will come to pass a moment in the future when Christ Jesus, the man, will no longer reign as such, but will be subject unto the Father (i.e., "Spirit") in the same manner as all of the "adopted" sons of God. In fact, this is explicitly stated in the words of Verse #28!

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." [1 Corinthians 15:24-28, KJV]

We who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost have received ONLY a limited portion, the "interest" (or what Paul called the "earnest") of our eternal inheritance (Ephesdians 1:14), with the fullness being rewarded NOT at His soon coming glorious appearance, at which time the redemption of our bodies occurs (see Romans 8:22-25), rather at the end of all things when Christ Jesus relinguishes reign and ALL the redeemed of mankind "shall be like him" (I John 3:2).

[thephnxman]

First, I believe it needful to note that when referring to the Christ child named Jesus, and His relation to God, one should ALWAYS insure that the first letter of the word "Son" appears in the upper case, for in so doing it refers to a specific, unique human as opposed to an ordinary person. The language of the Bible ALWAYS makes this distinction, and so should we! As an ordinary human being, like you and I, in the language of the Bible Christ Jesus is always referred to as the "son of man" (note that that word "son" appears in the lower case), whereas when referring to Him as the only begotten of the Father, He is ALWAYS noted as being the "Son of God."
Having stated that, I also believe it important to note the Scriptures contains NO language which describes a "kingdom of the son," nor does it ever mention a "kingdom of the Son." It is now, ALWAYS has been, and it shall ALWAYS be "the kingdom of God"!
If my understanding is correct of that which Paul the apostle wrote concerning the reign of Christ Jesus, the man, as King of kings and Lord of lords, as set forth in the words of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [KJV], then there will come to pass a moment in the future when Christ Jesus, the man, will no longer reign as such, but will be subject unto the Father (i.e., "Spirit") in the same manner as all of the "adopted" sons of God. In fact, this is explicitly stated in the words of Verse #28!
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." [1 Corinthians 15:24-28, KJV]
We who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost have received ONLY a limited portion, the "interest" (or what Paul called the "earnest") of our eternal inheritance (Ephesdians 1:14), with the fullness being rewarded NOT at His soon coming glorious appearance, at which time the redemption of our bodies occurs (see Romans 8:22-25), rather at the end of all things when Christ Jesus relinguishes reign and ALL the redeemed of mankind "shall be like him" (I John 3:2).

That's where I was going!

I refer to the kingdom UNDER HIS REIGN! It must cease AFTER all things are put under His feet:
and the last enemy to be put under His feet is DEATH!
Will the Son's reign end? "...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all
things under him...". So if the Word, who became flesh, did so by divesting himself of glory,
what is the return of the kingdom but the Word divesting itself of its human form to be glorifed
"...with the glory I had with you before the world was."

"Don't you know that we will judge angels?"

[Esaias]

That's where I was going!

I refer to the kingdom UNDER HIS REIGN! It must cease AFTER all things are put under His feet:
and the last enemy to be put under His feet is DEATH!
Will the Son's reign end? "...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all
things under him...". So if the Word, who became flesh, did so by divesting himself of glory,
what is the return of the kingdom but the Word divesting itself of its human form to be glorifed
"...with the glory I had with you before the world was."

"Don't you know that we will judge angels?"

Jhn 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
*

Heb 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:17
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
*

Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
*


Not one verse says "the Word shall divest himself of his humanity", or that Jesus Christ shall ever be less God than he is today right now.

The verse in Corinthians says he shall be SUBJECT, not " de-deified" or "divested of humanity" or any such things.

Why must people go beyond what is written? I never understood the need...

[mfblume]

Again, the oldest new testament we have from which our bibles were translated were written in uncials with no lower case anywhere.

[Lafon]

Jhn 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
*

Heb 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:17
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
*

Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
*


Not one verse says "the Word shall divest himself of his humanity", or that Jesus Christ shall ever be less God than he is today right now.

The verse in Corinthians says he shall be SUBJECT, not " de-deified" or "divested of humanity" or any such things.

Why must people go beyond what is written? I never understood the need...


There is a reason why you "see" this matter differently than myself and others, causing you to question why we fail to understand it as you do, and I will try to explain why I believe this to be true later, however, for the moment, allow me to express my thoughts regarding your response as noted above .....

So, was Paul wrong in what he wrote about the matter? I gave my understanding of what he said, would you do the same? One cannot simply disregard Paul's words, you know, for no passage of the scriprures are without merit.

What scriptural explanation do you offer in rebuttal to that which John wrote, saying that the time will come to pass when all of redeemed mankind "shall be like him" (1 John 3:2). What was John implying in making this statement?

[Lafon]

Again, the oldest new testament we have from which our bibles were translated were written in uncials with no lower case anywhere.


Mike, I doubt that this fact (if it be true, and I accept it is because you say so), has any significant bearing on the discussion. I'm confident that both the writers and readers of such oldest texts recognized the distinction, although contemporary translators opted to write using upper and lower case letters to express the common grammar of their day.

[Monterrey]

Hehehehehehehehe

[thephnxman]

Jhn 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
*
Heb 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
*
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
*
Not one verse says "the Word shall divest himself of his humanity", or that Jesus Christ shall ever be less God than he is today right now.
The verse in Corinthians says he shall be SUBJECT, not " de-deified" or "divested of humanity" or any such things.

Why must people go beyond what is written? I never understood the need...

Do you believe WE will not divest ourselves of these tabernacles of dust?

Will we really reign as sons or even partake of The Feast without royal garbs.....?

His NAME is Je-sus!

[mfblume]

Do you believe WE will not divest ourselves of these tabernacles of dust?

Will we really reign as sons or even partake of The Feast without royal garbs.....?

His NAME is Je-sus!

Not sure of the progress of your chats. So I may have missed something major. But do you not believe we shall see these mortal vessels changed into immortal ones? Or is that what our other brother is saying? Maybe you even answered this or me in another chat. Not sure. If so, forgive me.

That which is from the dust shall be transformed into that which is from heaven.

[mfblume]

Mike, I doubt that this fact (if it be true, and I accept it is because you say so), has any significant bearing on the discussion. I'm confident that both the writers and readers of such oldest texts recognized the distinction, although contemporary translators opted to write using upper and lower case letters to express the common grammar of their day.

I am just noting that capitals in the bible are not divinely inspired. So we cannot base doctrines on their absence or presence. The translators did the best they could according to context, but certainly not infallibly. But we should confirm that. I am not 100% sure of it.

[thephnxman]

Not sure of the progress of your chats. So I may have missed something major. But do you not believe we shall see these mortal vessels changed into immortal ones? Or is that what our other brother is saying? Maybe you even answered this or me in another chat. Not sure. If so, forgive me.

That which is from the dust shall be transformed into that which is from heaven.

"...that which is Spirit, is spirit..."

I believe there is a rationale for these bodies of dust: to keep us here on this earth to fulfill God's will.
It was to "...be fruitful and multiply." I don't believe anyone can be fruitful until filled with the Holy Spirit!
And it is only by the Spirit that we can produce holy seed.

"Shall I hide anything from Abraham,...For I know him that he shall command his children...they
shall keep the way of the Lord...".

[Esaias]

There is a reason why you "see" this matter differently than myself and others, causing you to question why we fail to understand it as you do, and I will try to explain why I believe this to be true later, however, for the moment, allow me to express my thoughts regarding your response as noted above .....

So, was Paul wrong in what he wrote about the matter? I gave my understanding of what he said, would you do the same? One cannot simply disregard Paul's words, you know, for no passage of the scriprures are without merit.

What scriptural explanation do you offer in rebuttal to that which John wrote, saying that the time will come to pass when all of redeemed mankind "shall be like him" (1 John 3:2). What was John implying in making this statement?

I have disregarded nothing written by Paul, that I am aware of.

As for John, we shall be like him (Christ).

This will happen "when he shall appear". Thus when Christ appears we shall be like him. This is clearly talking about the resurrection is it not?

[mfblume]

"...that which is Spirit, is spirit..."

I believe there is a rationale for these bodies of dust: to keep us here on this earth to fulfill God's will.
It was to "...be fruitful and multiply." I don't believe anyone can be fruitful until filled with the Holy Spirit!
And it is only by the Spirit that we can produce holy seed.

"Shall I hide anything from Abraham,...For I know him that he shall command his children...they
shall keep the way of the Lord...".

I feel there's more to these bodies. It is to manifest God's Spirit into the physical. Man is the ONLY creature with spirit, soul and body. Not even God and the angels are like that. And our human spirits connect with God's Spirit, and He manifests our from our spirits through our souls and bodies and into the world around us. THIS is the eternal purpose of God, I believe.

The physical universe is not going away. It's too vast for us on a mere speck in the universe to gaze up and say it's pretty to see little dots of lights in the skies. It's a physical vast universe! This physical realm was created for a great purpose. And we get to manifest GOD into it!

[Esaias]

Do you believe WE will not divest ourselves of these tabernacles of dust?

Will we really reign as sons or even partake of The Feast without royal garbs.....?

His NAME is Je-sus!

Divesting this mortal body (which will be replaced with an immortal body) is not the same as being "divested of humanity". Humanity means human nature, the sum total of qualities that make a human a human and not, say, a cat, or an amoeba, or a fir tree, or an angel, or a piece of granite. Humans do not cease being humans at the resurrection, they simply cease being mortal. Mortality is not a necessary part of the definition of " human" anymore than "poor" or "dumb" is. Mortality is a condition humans find themselves in at present, but that will be changed (for the redeemed, anyway).

Christ put off this tabernacle of dust, but still remained human.

My bible said Christ is unchanged forever. What does your bible say?

[mfblume]

Divesting this mortal body (which will be replaced with an immortal body) is not the same as being "divested of humanity". Humanity means human nature, the sum total of qualities that make a human a human and not, say, a cat, or an amoeba, or a for tree, or an angel, or a piece of granite. Humans do not cease being humans at the resurrection, they simply cease being mortal. Mortality is not a necessary part of the definition of " human" anymore than "poor" or "dumb" is. Mortality is a condition humans find themselves in at present, but that will be changed (for the redeemed, anyway).

Christ put off this tabernacle of dust, but still remained human.

My bible said Christ is unchanged forever. What does your bible say?

Amen. Christ is still HUMAN but glorified and immortal. He is what Adam was meant to be forever. Hence, He is last man Adam. The firstborn of a new creation race of immortal humans.

All we are aware of is mortal fallen humanity. But THE MAN Christ Jesus is still the MAN and is still intercessor and High Priest! THE MAN! Anthropos. Human being.

[mfblume]

Man was not meant to physically die. Only as a result of sin and judgment did God say to Adam he was dust and would return to dust. No note of that before the fall.

Gen 3:19 KJV In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Physical death was part of the curse.

[thephnxman]

(1) Amen. Christ is still HUMAN but glorified and immortal. He is what Adam was meant to be forever. Hence, He is last man Adam. The firstborn of a new creation race of immortal humans.
(2) All we are aware of is mortal fallen humanity. But THE MAN Christ Jesus is still the MAN and is still intercessor and High Priest! THE MAN! Anthropos. Human being.
(3) Man was not meant to physically die. Only as a result of sin and judgment did God say to Adam he was dust and would return to dust. No note of that before the fall.
(4) Gen 3:19 KJV In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(5) Physical death was part of the curse.


(1) Jesus is still a “man” because there are still men needing salvation and they (we)
still need an intercessor. We are humans because of our (a) bodies of dust, and (b) our
mortality! In our conversion, as in our resurrection, we are “Sons of God”.

(2) That is NOT all we should be aware of: but we should also be aware of the END
of the work of the Lord.

(3) If man was not meant to die physically, God would have left us in our spiritual bodies.
God KNEW man would sin. We should not question God’s omniscience! If God had not known
of the “fall”, He would not have established grace on the first day of creation. “That was
the true light that lights every man that enters into the world."

(4) This was AFTER the curse, and it is the FLESH that returns to the dust of the ground…or
what was taken (formed) from the dust? So what was the curse? That we should remain
in the bodies of dust, which are mortal!

(5) Yes, it was the consequence of the OPTION that man chose. However, God had let His will
be known by placing the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden!

[mfblume]

I disagree, brother. God meant man to be immortal in physical bodies to manifest His glory from the non-physical realm into the physical realm. Mortality is no synonymous with humanity, only with fallen humanity. The physical bodies we have is what God must manifest through in order to influence the physical universe. We lost spiritual bodies when Adam sinned. Christ resurrected in a spiritual body and that is what we shall have when our bodies are changed in a moment at His resurrection.

Our souls and spirits only go to heaven because we are without bodies. But that is not our eternal home. We will return in immortal bodies to the earth and rule forevermore.

We were created spirit, soul and body. And we are incomplete without all three. We already are sons of God. We already have eternal life, it's just that our bodies need to be changed as our spirits were, and souls are being changed.

[Esaias]

We are not humans "because of our bodies and mortality".

This is the SOURCE of your error that has led to other errors.

Christ is the SAME, FOREVER. The Bible says so. There is not one verse which says Christ will cease to be human. Additionally, you are saying human nature = mortal body, but you contradict yourself when you say Christ is STILL CURRENTLY HUMAN because he ALREADY PUT OFF THE MORTAL BODY in Resurrection.

So if your premise is correct, Jesus ceased to be human when he was resurrected.

I believe no doctrine unless it is stated as doctrine in the Bible, or is a necessary inference from what is stated. And this doctrine that Christ will cease to be human is neither.

[shazeep]

i don't think it matters, really, but good point.

[thephnxman]

I disagree, brother.
(1) God meant man to be immortal in physical bodies to manifest His glory from the non-physical realm into the physical realm. Mortality is no synonymous with humanity, only with fallen humanity.
(2) The physical bodies we have is what God must manifest through in order to influence the physical universe.
(3) We lost spiritual bodies when Adam sinned. Christ resurrected in a spiritual body and that is what we shall have when our bodies are changed in a moment at His resurrection.
(4) Our souls and spirits only go to heaven because we are without bodies. But that is not our eternal home.
(5) We will return in immortal bodies to the earth and rule forevermore.

(6)We were created spirit, soul and body. And we are incomplete without all three.
(7)We already are sons of God. We already have eternal life, it's just that our bodies need to be changed as our spirits were, and souls are being changed.

(1 Actually, man IS immortal; but the body formed from dust is NOT;

(2) God CHOSE to manifest thru the body of Jesus Christ, because man had bodies of dust;

(3) NO: we are still "Spirit-men": we lost our lordship;

(4) Yes. our "bodies" go back to the dust; however, the "lost"spirits await their punishment;

(5) Yes, the saved will: in ANOTHER tabernacle;

(6) We were created spirits (Gen 1:26), and then formed from dust, (Gen. 2"7) w/living souls;

(7) Yes. "...as many as should be saved..." are sons and daughters: and are transforming
their minds (souls) while awaiting the NEW TABERNACLE.

[thephnxman]

(1) We are not humans "because of our bodies and mortality".
(2) This is the SOURCE of your error that has led to other errors.
3) Christ is the SAME, FOREVER. The Bible says so. There is not one verse which says Christ will cease to be human.
(4) Additionally, you are saying human nature = mortal body, but you contradict yourself when you say Christ is STILL CURRENTLY HUMAN because he ALREADY PUT OFF THE MORTAL BODY in Resurrection.
(5) So if your premise is correct, Jesus ceased to be human when he was resurrected.
(6) I believe no doctrine unless it is stated as doctrine in the Bible, or is a necessary inference from what is stated. And this doctrine that Christ will cease to be human is neither.

(1) I stand corrected. Man is the "spirit-being" created in God's "...image and likeness...".

(2) Please enumerate my "other errors": I am willing to learn or be corrected;

(3) Christ, the WORD "...that became flesh...", is forever the same;

(4) I agreed with the Brother who said Jesus was still human: but believe that man developed
his "human nature" when he sinned;

(5) Jesus has NOT stopped being human...; He is still our intercessor AND the "...Lamb of God...";

(6) Good for you! Now, do you believe that we will enter "heaven" with these current bodies
and rule THIS current world for eternity? Will we not be dressed upon with a new tabernacle?
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect
tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in
remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus
Christ hath shewed me.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Are we not being built upon?

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..."

Because of sin, Jesus was manifest in the flesh to condemn sin. Now if we are to be dressed
upon with a NEW TABERNACLE, are you saying the Lord will insist on keeping the old tabernacle:
seeing there will be no more need for it?

[Esaias]

Brother, I find your use of terms (like human nature) is different than mine. We will put off mortality and put on immortality (which BTW proves man is NOT immortal at this time). We will be changed in resurrection to be like Jesus in HIS resurrected state.

The other errors pertain to what I see as an erroneous definition of human nature, but I don't want to quibble over mere terms that aren't found in scripture.

I believe Jesus will have the body he has now, forever. As we will retain our resurrected bodies, forever.

[Esaias]

Also, man was created from dust, and BECAME a "living soul". Man was NOT created as an immortal spirit being who then later on entered a physical body. The Bible is clear, God said " FOR DUST THOU ART" not " for dust is your body".

No human is immortal at this time except Jesus Christ. The lost will be destroyed in hell fire, they will not live forever in ANY state or condition.

[thephnxman]

Brother, I find your use of terms (like human nature) is different than mine. (1) We will put off mortality and put on immortality (which BTW proves man is NOT immortal at this time). We will be changed in resurrection to be like Jesus in HIS resurrected state.
(2) The other errors pertain to what I see as an erroneous definition of human nature, but I don't want to quibble over mere terms that aren't found in scripture.
(3) I believe Jesus will have the body he has now, forever. As we will retain our resurrected bodies, forever.

(1) Beloved, instead of "human nature", I could have used animal nature, which may be more
appropriate...seeing man was formed on the sixth day, right after the animals.

(2) That's correct: the words "human nature" are not found in scripture. But the term is common.

(3) Perhaps: what He will not have, I believe, is the same type of body we now have...with the
same weaknesses and limitations...even as this world (universe) is limited in space and time.

[mfblume]

(3) Perhaps: what He will not have, I believe, is the same type of body we now have...with the
same weaknesses and limitations...even as this world (universe) is limited in space and time.

Of course. That's the point. the bodies WE NOW HAVE are mortal. But He was raised immortal. Romans 6 says death has no more dominion over him. He will never die. That means He has a body that is now immortal. THAT is the body we shall have. It's the same body He came out of the grave with. THAT is what He has now and what we shall likewise have.

[mfblume]

(1 Actually, man IS immortal; but the body formed from dust is NOT;

The body shall be made immortal , though. That's the point.

(2) God CHOSE to manifest thru the body of Jesus Christ, because man had bodies of dust;

But God continued top manifest even moreso through the CHANGED body of Jesus that came out of the tomb. That body continues to manifest GOD. And that is the sort of body we will likewise have in the resurrection. The current mortal body shall put on immortality.


(3) NO: we are still "Spirit-men": we lost our lordship; Same thing, iin my opinion.

(4) Yes. our "bodies" go back to the dust; however, the "lost"spirits await their punishment;

Agreed. Not sure of your point, though.

(5) Yes, the saved will: in ANOTHER tabernacle;...which is THIS CURRENT MORTAL ONE that is CHANGED to be immortal. the IT that is sown is the IT that is raised, but a change occurs between the sowing and the raising. That CHANGE is the mortal body being rendered immortal.

(6) We were created spirits (Gen 1:26), and then formed from dust, (Gen. 2"7) w/living souls;

I disagree. We came from God's breath (spirits are made from material of heaven) and from dust (bodies made from material of earth) and the combination made a SOUL - (conscious self-aware being).

(7) Yes. "...as many as should be saved..." are sons and daughters: and are transforming
their minds (souls) while awaiting the NEW TABERNACLE.But you said we won't be humans but will be sons of God in the resurrection. So, I retorted saying we ARE sons of God now.

1Jn 3:2 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Lafon]

Of course. That's the point. the bodies WE NOW HAVE are mortal. But He was raised immortal. Romans 6 says death has no more dominion over him. He will never die. That means He has a body that is now immortal. THAT is the body we shall have. It's the same body He came out of the grave with. THAT is what He has now and what we shall likewise have.

:thumbsup

[Lafon]

Also, man was created from dust, and BECAME a "living soul". Man was NOT created as an immortal spirit being who then later on entered a physical body. The Bible is clear, God said " FOR DUST THOU ART" not " for dust is your body".

No human is immortal at this time except Jesus Christ. The lost will be destroyed in hell fire, they will not live forever in ANY state or condition.


I disagree totally with your description of the "composition" of the "whole man" and must "call it as I see it," which is that its a whole lot of speculative nonsense, utterly void of any type of scriptural reference to support it. Your explanation is among one of the most tortuous efforts I've occasioned to read wherein someone has attempted to describe God's creation of mankind. Shall we examine the manner in which the language of the Bible explains God's creation of the composite nature of the "whole" man?

In I Thessalonians 5:23 Paul advises us that the "whole" man consists of three distinctly different parts, elements, or components: "spirit and soul and body." Lets examine the manner in which Moses described man's creation in the Genesis record to see how it compares with Paul's description:

Genesis 1:27 states, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Without taking into consideration statements Moses later wrote concerning God's subsequent acts in the completion of His creation of mankind, we must decide which of the three distinctly different parts of man was Moses referring to when he was inspired of God to write these words. Certainly he could not have been referring the "body" of man for God does NOT possess a substantive body. And he could not have been refering to the "spirit," for this word, when defined, simply means "breath" or a "blast of air." Therefore simple common logic and reasoning allows for the conclusion Moses was stating, in essence, that God created the "souls" of both male and female in his own image; implying that this component of every human being possesses the very same attributes or characteristics as God Himself; that is, the soul of man is eternal, invisible, and immortal (will never cease to exist).

A careful examination of the words of Genesis 3:19, wherein God pronounced the judgment of death, can only be interpreted to mean that God was speaking to Adam's "body," and NOT his soul! The soul of man, being a non-substantive element, does NOT have a face that is capable of sweating, and the soul does NOT eat bread! Therefore God was pronouncing judgment upon Adam's body and NOT his soul. The soul of man did NOT come out of the dust, rather it was created by the power of the spoken word of God!

[Esaias]

Lafon, God Himself said "for dust THOU ART".

That's all I need to know. I believe it. Why don't you?

No " tortuous reasoning" involved. I merely quoted scripture and agreed with it.

[Esaias]

Also, "soul" is a term referring in many cases to the PERSON. "Adam became a living soul", not Adam "got" a soul.

[Lafon]

Lafon, God Himself said "for dust THOU ART".

That's all I need to know. I believe it. Why don't you?

No " tortuous reasoning" involved. I merely quoted scripture and agreed with it.


I didn't think you would understand, but ...... I tried an hoped you would.

In all of your explaining you still have never indicated what element of man God created in His own image!

Sorry that I could not have been of more help to you.

[mfblume]

A person is essentially a soul WITH a body and WITH a spirit.

[Esaias]

I didn't think you would understand, but ...... I tried an hoped you would.

In all of your explaining you still have never indicated what element of man God created in His own image!

Sorry that I could not have been of more help to you.

The BIBLE says "God made man in his own image." It says NOTHING about "what part of man is in the image of God."

If you wish to go beyond what is written that's your business. But I'm a "Bible-only" type of believer. I have no use for doctrines not written in God's Word.

Sorry.

Also, you should notice I didn't explain anything, I just quoted God and let His Word be true and all else be liars.

[Esaias]

A person is essentially a soul WITH a body and WITH a spirit.

Yes, this is essentially correct. When spirit and flesh are united the product is a living soul, when they are separated the person (soul) dies. The spirit goes back to God and the flesh goes back to the esrth. At the resurrection they are reunited. This is the blessed hope, that Christ will RESURRECT those who put their faith in him.

[thephnxman]

The body shall be made immortal , though. That's the point.
But God continued top manifest even moreso through the CHANGED body of Jesus that came out of the tomb. That body continues to manifest GOD. And that is the sort of body we will likewise have in the resurrection. The current mortal body shall put on immortality.
Same thing, iin my opinion.
Agreed. Not sure of your point, though.
...which is THIS CURRENT MORTAL ONE that is CHANGED to be immortal. the IT that is sown is the IT that is raised, but a change occurs between the sowing and the raising. That CHANGE is the mortal body being rendered immortal.
I disagree. We came from God's breath (spirits are made from material of heaven) and from dust (bodies made from material of earth) and the combination made a SOUL - (conscious self-aware being).
But you said we won't be humans but will be sons of God in the resurrection. So, I retorted saying we ARE sons of God now.
1Jn 3:2 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

"God created man in his own IMAGE; in the IMAGE of God created he him...".

You seem to be saying either that (1) God's image is dust AND temporal; or (2) that man is created
as an animal, but was given a living soul.

I say either God is Spirit and eternal, or you are right and man was created from the image of animals...who
were created from the dust.

Man was created in God's spiritual image and then God "...FORMED man from the dust of the ground,"
When God breathed into man's nostrils, it was to give LIFE to the body: signifying the way man was to
govern/rule his body...through God's Spirit! "It is the Spirit that quickens...""

I concede, however, that there are two scriptures that could give credence to your belief: Rom. 5:14
and Heb. 1:3;except that God first SPOKE: afterwards He prepared a body for the Word He sent forth!

Yes, we WILL be resurrected in this earthly bodies: for that is the final proof that death has been defeated and,
"The last enemy that is to be destroyed is death." However, we WILL NOT remain in this bodies, but will
be dressed upon with another body: "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up
by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our
Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."

Anyone wants to keep this earthly body and this world, let them be your portion. "My portion is the Lord."

[mfblume]

"God created man in his own IMAGE; in the IMAGE of God created he him...".

You seem to be saying either that (1) God's image is dust AND temporal; or (2) that man is created
as an animal, but was given a living soul.

I distinctly did not say that. Man was created immortal in spirit, soul and body and sin alone changed that. Salvation restores it.

I say either God is Spirit and eternal, or you are right and man was created from the image of animals...who were created from the dust.

I never said man was created from the image of animals. Where did I say that? He is God's image. What God is in the non-corporeals, Man is in the visibles. An IMAGE is not an identical. Man is the TRANSLATION OF GOD in physical terms.


Man was created in God's spiritual image and then God "...FORMED man from the dust of the ground,"

No, it does not say that. Mans dust from earth, breath from God and resulting SOUL are all the creation He referred to. Where do you get the idea man was created before body and soul were involved?

When God breathed into man's nostrils, it was to give LIFE to the body: signifying the way man was to
govern/rule his body...through God's Spirit! "It is the Spirit that quickens...""

I concede, however, that there are two scriptures that could give credence to your belief: Rom. 5:14
and Heb. 1:3;except that God first SPOKE: afterwards He prepared a body for the Word He sent forth!

Yes, we WILL be resurrected in this earthly bodies: for that is the final proof that death has been defeated and,
"The last enemy that is to be destroyed is death." However, we WILL NOT remain in this bodies, but will
be dressed upon with another body: "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up
by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our
Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."

Anyone wants to keep this earthly body and this world, let them be your portion. "My portion is the Lord."You misreference those words.

This body was created immortal, lost its immortality in the fall, and shall be rendered immortal again in the resurrection, and created to RULE ON EARTH not in heaven. Taking off this tabernacle is leaving the body to be absent with the Lord, and await a NEW BODY made of physical material but IMMORTAL.

[thephnxman]

I distinctly did not say that. Man was created immortal in spirit, soul and body and sin alone changed that. Salvation restores it.
I never said man was created from the image of animals. Where did I say that? He is God's image. What God is in the non-corporeals, Man is in the visibles. An IMAGE is not an identical. Man is the TRANSLATION OF GOD in physical terms.
No, it does not say that. Mans dust from earth, breath from God and resulting SOUL are all the creation He referred to. Where do you get the idea man was created before body and soul were involved?
You misreference those words.
This body was created immortal, lost its immortality in the fall, and shall be rendered immortal again in the resurrection, and created to RULE ON EARTH not in heaven. Taking off this tabernacle is leaving the body to be absent with the Lord, and await a NEW BODY made of physical material but IMMORTAL.

Kind of reminds me of those denoms that "teach" prophecy before they know the gospel.

This creation and these bodies are temporal: surrounded by time...until all sin, and death, is conquered.

[mfblume]

Kind of reminds me of those denoms that "teach" prophecy before they know the gospel.

This creation and these bodies are temporal: surrounded by time...until all sin, and death, is conquered.

That's the point, isn't it. BEFORE sin came there was no sin and death. Has sin become so part of our thinking that we cannot imagine humanity without sin and death before sin arrived?

[thephnxman]

That's the point, isn't it. BEFORE sin came there was no sin and death. Has sin become so part of our thinking that we cannot imagine humanity without sin and death before sin arrived?

"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Beloved, the point is God "...formed man from the dust of the ground..." because of sin. Yes, He
created man to REIGN with Him: but He also knew that He had to deal with the iniquity that was
found in Lucifer. God implemented 3 Laws to save man, and condemn satan at the same time: the
laws of mercy (which is temporal), Grace (that is eternal), and the Law of sin and death.
Satan was not subject to the first two, because he was created before them. Man could avail himself
of them because they were designed FOR HIM...seeing he was created AFTER them. Satan was judged
according to the Law of Sin and Death because he murdered Jesus! Man is not judged by the Law
of Sin and Death, if he avails himself of the Laws of Mercy and Grace.

"...that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us..."