I have Left the UPC Church

[Michlow]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

[berkeley]

I can not rejoice over this. :(

[SDG]

You have not left the Church ... or God ... just a mindset ... a paradigm.

[Malvaro]

surprise, surprise....

May God keep you in your journeys....

[Ronzo]

You have not left the Church ... or God ... just a mindset ... a paradigm.
Ditto

[Margies3]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

Just curious, Mich. Can you share what some of the other things you disagree with are?

[Ronzo]

surprise, surprise....


Nice.

[Malvaro]

Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

Leave the UPC if you must, but don't leave the Apostolic doctrine.... the principles contained in the scriptures are the only thing that can keep you....

[Ronzo]

Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)
Been there myself for a long time.

[Malvaro]

Just curious, Mich. Can you share what some of the other things you disagree with are?

she has shared numerous things that she's "disagreed" with.... just dig around in the AFF archives awhile....

[Jack Shephard]

You have not left the Church ... or God ... just a mindset ... a paradigm.

Well said, excellent post!

[berkeley]

Mich,

You are no longer 'oneness'?

[Michlow]

I can not rejoice over this. :(

I have only left the UPC organization, not the church as in the body of Christ.

You have not left the Church ... or God ... just a mindset ... a paradigm.

I agree

surprise, surprise....

May God keep you in your journeys....

Ahhhh....I can SO feel the love :nah

[Rico]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

Hmmmm. Where are you going to church now?

[Ronzo]

Mich,

You are no longer 'oneness'?
I don't think she said she no longer believes God is one.

[Michlow]

Just curious, Mich. Can you share what some of the other things you disagree with are?

In a nutshell? Tithing or your money is cursed (I believe tithing if of the LAw and the NT mandate is to give as the Lord directs)

Separation of ministry and laity. Elevation of ministry. Focus on church buildings and programs. And of course, the ever mentioned standards.

Nice.

LOL, I am used to it Ron! Ever since I turned liberal he is mean to me! *Cry*

Leave the UPC if you must, but don't leave the Apostolic doctrine.... the principles contained in the scriptures are the only thing that can keep you....

I can't say that I am necessarily "leaving" the doctrine. Right now I am not doing anything with the doctrine. Right now, I am trying correct the warped image of God that I received. Because if I don't know who God really is. If I don't believe that he is good, or loving, or anything, what does the rest matter? And no, I don't blame that entirely on the UPC, as I attended a spiritually abusive UPC church, of which you are already aware.

Been there myself for a long time.

That's why I love having you and Nate and DT to talk to !

[Michlow]

Mich,

You are no longer 'oneness'?

I am no more or no less oneness than I have ever been. I am no more or no less pentecostal than I have ever been. To be honest, doctrine is not really a prime concern for me right now. The fact that I have always had a distorted image of God is the focus of my energies.

But beyond that, when it comes to the Godhead, I view it the same as I have always, which could be labeled "oneness".

Hmmmm. Where are you going to church now?

In my living room :sshhh

[Malvaro]

LOL, I am used to it Ron! Ever since I turned liberal he is mean to me! *Cry*


Do you honestly think that I'm being "mean"???

[Michlow]

Do you honestly think that I'm being "mean"???

Actually to borrow a word from my friend Chax, "snarky" would be more appropriate ;)

[Malvaro]

Actually to borrow a word from my friend Chax, "snarky" would be more appropriate ;)

where is Chax, I haven't seen her in quite some time....

[Jack Shephard]

I can't say that I am necessarily "leaving" the doctrine. Right now I am not doing anything with the doctrine. Right now, I am trying correct the warped image of God that I received. Because if I don't know who God really is. If I don't believe that he is good, or loving, or anything, what does the rest matter? And no, I don't blame that entirely on the UPC, as I attended a spiritually abusive UPC church, of which you are already aware.

Having a warped sense of who God is will cause you to have a warped sense of who you are. We are the express image of Him. If you can not see God the right way you need to leave the UPC if they are the problem. Make sure that if you leave do so with your eyes on Him and Him alone. Don't leave with your eyes on how dissappointed or how much you hate the UPC. That will only cause bittnerness and then there will be no way you can see God for who and what He is.

This is easier said than done at times. Focus is the most important thing right now. I left the UPC and focused on how I was dissappointed with the UPC. It almost destroyed me. I have since gone back to a UPC church, but a way less judgemental church and I am happy now. I did that with caution though. I searched this out for a while. I may not stay in a UPC church forever. I was in the ministry at a UPC church and maybe being out of the ministry for a while will make it better. But focus on the face of God and the voice of God. I promise that over the next few weeks you will hear what you think is the voice of God. Make sure it is the voice of God you hear and not the voice of the controling pastor taking the place of God's voice.

[Michlow]

where is Chax, I haven't seen her in quite some time....

We talk in email. Though I did hear that she made a brief appearance here.

[Sarah]

I am no more or no less oneness than I have ever been. I am no more or no less pentecostal than I have ever been. To be honest, doctrine is not really a prime concern for me right now. The fact that I have always had a distorted image of God is the focus of my energies.

But beyond that, when it comes to the Godhead, I view it the same as I have always, which could be labeled "oneness".



In my living room :sshhh


Michlow, for your sake, I hope you find happiness and contentment. The same goes for Ronzo and others. When you find all the answers, please let the rest of us know. But I can tell you one thing.........

You can travel the world over, read every book on the subject, listen to every discontented 'christian' there is, etc, etc, and it won't change the truth of the Apostle's doctrine. Now the organizations have no doubt made some mistakes with programs and other things, but the keys that Peter used on the day of Pentecost will forever be true. Think long and hard before you turn away from it.

God bless, you're in my prayers, and have been for a while.

[Ferd]

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I pray that some of it is what you left behind.

I also pray that you can figure out what was the good and what was the not so good....

[Michlow]

Having a warped sense of who God is will cause you to have a warped sense of who you are. We are the express image of Him. If you can not see God the right way you need to leave the UPC if they are the problem. Make sure that if you leave do so with your eyes on Him and Him alone. Don't leave with your eyes on how dissappointed or how much you hate the UPC. That will only cause bittnerness and then there will be no way you can see God for who and what He is.

This is easier said than done at times. Focus is the most important thing right now. I left the UPC and focused on how I was dissappointed with the UPC. It almost destroyed me. I have since gone back to a UPC church, but a way less judgemental church and I am happy now. I did that with caution though. I searched this out for a while. I may not stay in a UPC church forever. I was in the ministry at a UPC church and maybe being out of the ministry for a while will make it better. But focus on the face of God and the voice of God. I promise that over the next few weeks you will hear what you think is the voice of God. Make sure it is the voice of God you hear and not the voice of the controling pastor taking the place of God's voice.

To make this easier on my self, I cut and paste a response I just gave to Margie on the pants thread:

I honestly don't have any anger or negative feelings against any individuals. Mad at the system? Sometimes. The Mindset? definately! Mad at how messed up I am become of it? Most definately! And extremely frustrated because I have to start all over! And I go back and forth at being mad at God. If he is like the God that I was taught, then yes, I am mad at Him. But the truth is, I understand that I have a warped and distorted view of God, and that is what I am working on at the moment. But I get very frustrated at having to start all over!

But the truth is, that I know that good will come of this. I know that I will grow. I know that even if I only have a tiny seed of faith right now, that when I come through the fire, it will have grown exponentially. That when I am done, I will know God like I have never known him before. Yes, right now I am angry. But I do understand that some day I will be glad for what I experienced because of what God accomplished through them.

But for know, I simply get by the only way I know how. One day at a time.

[Michlow]

Michlow, for your sake, I hope you find happiness and contentment. The same goes for Ronzo and others. When you find all the answers, please let the rest of us know. But I can tell you one thing.........

You can travel the world over, read every book on the subject, listen to every discontented 'christian' there is, etc, etc, and it won't change the truth of the Apostle's doctrine. Now the organizations have no doubt made some mistakes with programs and other things, but the keys that Peter used on the day of Pentecost will forever be true. Think long and hard before you turn away from it.

God bless, you're in my prayers, and have been for a while.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I pray that some of it is what you left behind.

I also pray that you can figure out what was the good and what was the not so good....

I thank both of you. I will take all the prayers that i can get!

[mfblume]

I always feel for those disillusioned by the error found in places. The way of truth can be made to look evil by reason of some people who mix error with truth. One must always remember: Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Brother Price]

Dearest Michlow,

For many years, I ahve dealt with several issues. I have walked down the same road you have, and traveled down a path that led me to where you are. I quickly found some things out, as a result of my seeking the truth...

The Messiah Jesus is still the same. He does not change despite when we change. He is strong and stable even when we are not. He is faithful to keep us when we are losing faith.

Michlow, I found that despite the arrogance of a few, the very things which you spoke of disagreeing with are the very things the Holy Spirit has led me to be restored into believing. I have had certain ministers slander and talk harshly towards me, some even attacking me, lying on me saying I was gay. These men are weeds in the field, and the Lord shall deal with them when He is ready.

My friend, heed my words. Instead of leaving, find yourself a sincere quiet place, pulled away, and seek His face. He will lead you. Turn off the computer, and bow the knee, and He will open your eyes to His ways and truths. He will show you, if you let Him.

Just some sincere thoughts.

Hallelu et Adonai!

[Subdued]

where is Chax, I haven't seen her in quite some time....

She's posted recently under another name.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Dearest Michlow,

For many years, I ahve dealt with several issues. I have walked down the same road you have, and traveled down a path that led me to where you are. I quickly found some things out, as a result of my seeking the truth...

The Messiah Jesus is still the same. He does not change despite when we change. He is strong and stable even when we are not. He is faithful to keep us when we are losing faith.

Michlow, I found that despite the arrogance of a few, the very things which you spoke of disagreeing with are the very things the Holy Spirit has led me to be restored into believing. I have had certain ministers slander and talk harshly towards me, some even attacking me, lying on me saying I was gay. These men are weeds in the field, and the Lord shall deal with them when He is ready.

My friend, heed my words. Instead of leaving, find yourself a sincere quiet place, pulled away, and seek His face. He will lead you. Turn off the computer, and bow the knee, and He will open your eyes to His ways and truths. He will show you, if you let Him.

Just some sincere thoughts.

Hallelu et Adonai!

HA! YOU threatened to NEVER post HERE again!

:killinme

[Charlie Brown]

Michlow,

I don't know peanuts about your situation. But I do know that the core foundation that you would have received from an Apostolic church is right. Please don't trade in the knowledge of what it means to be truly saved, with a false hope or security that comes from an unbiblical doctrine. Stay true to the basic doctrine of salvation and the Oneness of God no matter what you do or where you go. It will be your lifeline.

[berkeley]

HA! YOU threatened to NEVER post HERE again!

:killinme

david ben yacob????

[Michlow]

I always feel for those disillusioned by the error found in places. The way of truth can be made to look evil by reason of some people who mix error with truth. One must always remember: Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I am truly trying not to do that. In truth, after discovering that my foundation was faulty, I am trying to rebuild it on solid ground. I have a saying that I say partially in jest "I believe that Jesus is God, the rest is negotiable"

That is my starting point, that much I can believe is truth. I personally believe that its a good place to start :)

[Michlow]

Michlow,

I don't know peanuts about your situation. But I do know that the core foundation that you would have received from an Apostolic church is right. Please don't trade in the knowledge of what it means to be truly saved, with a false hope or security that comes from an unbiblical doctrine. Stay true to the basic doctrine of salvation and the Oneness of God no matter what you do or where you go. It will be your lifeline.


I truly believe that if I truly seeking God, that he will not lead me astray. If those things are true (and at the current time I DO believe they are true) then they can withstand my questioning.

[Brother Price]

david ben yacob????


Please. I do have some good looks. My ID is anom for a while, and for good reason.

[Michlow]

Please. I do have some good looks. My ID is anom for a while, and for good reason.

I think I know who you are, which means I think I know why you want to be annoymous ;)

[berkeley]

Please. I do have some good looks. My ID is anom for a while, and for good reason.

I don't understand your post.

[Steve Epley]

It was you Paul had in mind when writing Hebrews 10:25 I just hope you do not fulfil Heb.10:26-29 When one fails to assemble they open themselves up to fatal error.

[Brother Price]

Berk, the past 24 hours have been a living nightmare for me. I wanted to try to keep anom for a while, but I am way too transparent for my own good. Wanted a little break, and decided to come back for a while. Much better to be bashed here than anywhere else.

[Michlow]

It was you Paul had in mind when writing Hebrews 10:25 I just hope you do not fulfil Heb.10:26-29 When one fails to assemble they open themselves up to fatal error.

What, you aren't going to warn me again that 90% of all serial killers were loners? :killinme

[Rico]

In a nutshell? Tithing or your money is cursed (I believe tithing if of the LAw and the NT mandate is to give as the Lord directs)

Separation of ministry and laity. Elevation of ministry. Focus on church buildings and programs. And of course, the ever mentioned standards.



LOL, I am used to it Ron! Ever since I turned liberal he is mean to me! *Cry*



I can't say that I am necessarily "leaving" the doctrine. Right now I am not doing anything with the doctrine. Right now, I am trying correct the warped image of God that I received. Because if I don't know who God really is. If I don't believe that he is good, or loving, or anything, what does the rest matter? And no, I don't blame that entirely on the UPC, as I attended a spiritually abusive UPC church, of which you are already aware.



That's why I love having you and Nate and DT to talk to !

Sister, it sounds to me like you are going to have to find an independant church to go to, rather than one that is either UPC, ALJC, or any of the other orgs. The thing is this, you may find part of what you are looking for, but I don't know that you will find all of it. I know in my own situation I have finally realized that I am not going to find a church that believes everything the way I do. So I have categorized things into non-negotiable, willing to go along with, and don't matter at all. As long as I get everything in the non-negotiable area there are some things I will be willing to go along with.

[Steve Epley]

What, you aren't going to warn me again that 90% of all serial killers were loners? :killinme

That is so also. But the choice is yours. God has given free-will to everyone and you are free to be wrong or right. But I will pray for you that is all I can do.

[H2H]

Mich, I must view your departure with question. How can you say withdrawal to nothing is the answer to improper doctrines or wrongful interpretation? Find a church - a group of beleivers - and when you do there will likely be other issues you can again withdraw over. ALL organizations have error ALL. Because you are removing yourself to a "me and Jesus" mentality I must question your motives.

Meanwhile, I will pray that God will place a hunger for Him in your heart.


In Jesus, H2H

[berkeley]

Berk, the past 24 hours have been a living nightmare for me. I wanted to try to keep anom for a while, but I am way too transparent for my own good. Wanted a little break, and decided to come back for a while. Much better to be bashed here than anywhere else.

what happend.. pm if you'd like.

[Rico]

In my living room :sshhh


Ahhhh. I know that road fairly well. It can sustain you, but it can get pretty lonely too and it's very easy to head down a wrong path also. Have you got any other people you can worship with and whatnot?

[Michlow]

Mich, I must view your departure with question. How can you say withdrawal to nothing is the answer to improper doctrines or wrongful interpretation? Find a church - a group of beleivers - and when you do there will likely be other issues you can again withdraw over. ALL organizations have error ALL. Because you are removing yourself to a "me and Jesus" mentality I must question your motives.

Meanwhile, I will pray that God will place a hunger for Him in your heart.


In Jesus, H2H

Bro. H,

I have no intention of separating myself from other believers forever. I view my current situation as being in a holding pattern. For right now, I am leaning on fellow believers who have traveled this road before. It is not a permanent solution, just a temporary situation, but I thank you for your prayers.

[mfblume]

I am truly trying not to do that. In truth, after discovering that my foundation was faulty, I am trying to rebuild it on solid ground. I have a saying that I say partially in jest "I believe that Jesus is God, the rest is negotiable"

That is my starting point, that much I can believe is truth. I personally believe that its a good place to start :)

It is something to note as well that amongst all religious responses to the question "What must we do?", what the apostles gave was Acts 2:38. We find no, "Raise your hand and accept Jesus into your heart," or "sign your name on a membership roll." These are issues the UPC has correct.

And the day of Pentecost is when the church started. And the bible specifically says they stood on the apostles' doctrine.

Even Jesus said that He prayed for His disciples and that the world might believe THROUGH THEIR word.

I really believe these are stedfast issues, M. What the bible flatly says in plain language is sure. Other extrabiblical issues as if women go to hell for wearing pants are really no-brainers that they are NOT foundational issues.

Keep this passage in mind in your journey:

Heb 6:1-2 KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Never compromise those 6 issues. :)

[Sherri]

Mich, Mich, Mich......I do love you for your transparency!! You are a breath of fresh air on here many times when I need a good laugh. I think you're one of the most sincere people that I know and that you have a heart after God, like David. Just keep chasing Him (God, not David). He will lead and guide you into all truth.

You have to have passion; that's what it's all about. God is so big and so awesome, we cannot begin to understand Him. But He is ultimately always good and He is faithful; He will keep you. The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Read the Word and let it sink into your Spirit; He will speak to you through it.

I love you. If you ever need to talk, PM me. Meanwhile, I'll be praying!

[Michlow]

Mich, Mich, Mich......I do love you for your transparency!! You are a breath of fresh air on here many times when I need a good laugh. I think you're one of the most sincere people that I know and that you have a heart after God, like David. Just keep chasing Him (God, not David). He will lead and guide you into all truth.

You have to have passion; that's what it's all about. God is so big and so awesome, we cannot begin to understand Him. But He is ultimately always good and He is faithful; He will keep you. The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Read the Word and let it sink into your Spirit; He will speak to you through it.

I love you. If you ever need to talk, PM me. Meanwhile, I'll be praying!

Thank you so much Sherri! :friend

You sure you guys don't want to move your church to GA? Hark! Listen to what the Spirit of the Lord speaketh....

:heeheehee

[Ronzo]

Mich, Mich, Mich......I do love you for your transparency!! You are a breath of fresh air on here many times when I need a good laugh. I think you're one of the most sincere people that I know and that you have a heart after God, like David. Just keep chasing Him (God, not David). He will lead and guide you into all truth.

You have to have passion; that's what it's all about. God is so big and so awesome, we cannot begin to understand Him. But He is ultimately always good and He is faithful; He will keep you. The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Read the Word and let it sink into your Spirit; He will speak to you through it.

I love you. If you ever need to talk, PM me. Meanwhile, I'll be praying!
Thank you for your kindness to my friend, sis.

[tamor]

Thank you so much Sherri! :friend

You sure you guys don't want to move your church to GA? Hark! Listen to what the Spirit of the Lord speaketh....

:heeheehee


You never can tell, huh Sherri? ;)

[Rico]

Thank you so much Sherri! :friend

You sure you guys don't want to move your church to GA? Hark! Listen to what the Spirit of the Lord speaketh....

:heeheehee

TN is a beautiful State ya know. Y'all don't have any children that would complicate y'all moving either. Plus, don't you rent, rather than own? The way I see it y'all are just a matter of a few weeks away from being able to pack up and head to TN. :D (Yes, I am meddling)

[Brother Price]

Rico, don't meddle...




(that's like telling me not to eat a free meal at an all-you-can-eat Chinese buffet.) :)

[Sherri]

You never can tell, huh Sherri? ;)
Well, we're in three states now and in four countries. Who knows when Georgia will be on the list??

[Sherri]

TN is a beautiful State ya know. Y'all don't have any children that would complicate y'all moving either. Plus, don't you rent, rather than own? The way I see it y'all are just a matter of a few weeks away from being able to pack up and head to TN. :D (Yes, I am meddling)
Ooh, yes, Mich. Even better.....you come this way! I'll save you a seat on the front row.

[berkeley]

Well, we're in three states now and in four countries. Who knows when Georgia will be on the list??

CA on the list?????:poloroid

[tamor]

Well, we're in three states now and in four countries. Who knows when Georgia will be on the list??

I'm having a senior moment........what's the third state??

[Praxeas]

In a nutshell? Tithing or your money is cursed
Not a UPC doctrine, not an Apostolic doctrine. Not a Oneness doctrine

Separation of ministry and laity.
Not a UPC doctrine, not an Apostolic doctrine. Not a Oneness doctrine

Elevation of ministry.
Not a UPC doctrine, not an Apostolic doctrine. Not a Oneness doctrine

Focus on church buildings and programs.
Not a UPC doctrine, not an Apostolic doctrine. Not a Oneness doctrine

And of course, the ever mentioned standards.
This is a UPC doctrine, but not all Apostolic groups do

[tamor]

Ooh, yes, Mich. Even better.....you come this way! I'll save you a seat on the front row.

Then she can come go in The Edge for the second service and sit with me!!

[Sherri]

CA on the list?????:poloroid
I guess I could do like Randy White and just move out there by myself, huh? Wonder what Pastor Eddie would say about that?????(I think I would miss him just a little).

[berkeley]

I'm having a senior moment........what's the third state??

Mississippi!!!

[Sherri]

I'm having a senior moment........what's the third state??
Illinois......newly ordained guy there.

[tamor]

I guess I could do like Randy White and just move out there by myself, huh? Wonder what Pastor Eddie would say about that?????(I think I would miss him just a little).

Ya think? :poloroid

[berkeley]

I guess I could do like Randy White and just move out there by myself, huh?

YES!!! You'd already have 2 members!!!

[Sherri]

YES!!! You'd already have 2 members!!! You and who else??? The elusive guy in your avatar?

[tamor]

Illinois......newly ordained guy there.

Ah yes. I forgot. I came to the second service that day and missed the ordination.

[berkeley]

You and who else??? The elusive guy in your avatar?

No, me and my *cough* friend. :)

[Sherri]

No, me and my *cough* friend. :)Ok, now are you going to tell us about this FRIEND?????

[berkeley]

Ok, now are you going to tell us about this FRIEND?????

She is a pastors daughter. My age... and that is all that you need to know :lol

[Sherri]

She is a pastors daughter. My age... and that is all that you need to know :lol
Oh my....is it MY daughter??????:lol

[Pastor Keith]

It is something to note as well that amongst all religious responses to the question "What must we do?", what the apostles gave was Acts 2:38. We find no, "Raise your hand and accept Jesus into your heart," or "sign your name on a membership roll." These are issues the UPC has correct.

And the day of Pentecost is when the church started. And the bible specifically says they stood on the apostles' doctrine.

Even Jesus said that He prayed for His disciples and that the world might believe THROUGH THEIR word.

I really believe these are stedfast issues, M. What the bible flatly says in plain language is sure. Other extrabiblical issues as if women go to hell for wearing pants are really no-brainers that they are NOT foundational issues.

Keep this passage in mind in your journey:



Never compromise those 6 issues. :)

We are total agreement, this is what I believe and have believed and teach our church to believe.

We better have the same answer to that original question, what must I do to be saved?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not out to blast MICH ,but one can be saved and not be UPCI ,but I would stay with what the early church taught ,and please stay in a home church.
But stay with Jesus Christ and fast and pray and read the word.

[Brother Price]

Well said.

[tamor]

No, me and my *cough* friend. :)

:sing :sing :sing

[berkeley]

Oh my....is it MY daughter??????:lol

No.. but she does speak spanish...:lol

[berkeley]

:sing :sing :sing

Yes???

[SISTER Murphy]

Having a warped sense of who God is will cause you to have a warped sense of who you are. We are the express image of Him. If you can not see God the right way you need to leave the UPC if they are the problem. Make sure that if you leave do so with your eyes on Him and Him alone. Don't leave with your eyes on how dissappointed or how much you hate the UPC. That will only cause bittnerness and then there will be no way you can see God for who and what He is.

This is easier said than done at times. Focus is the most important thing right now. I left the UPC and focused on how I was dissappointed with the UPC. It almost destroyed me. I have since gone back to a UPC church, but a way less judgemental church and I am happy now. I did that with caution though. I searched this out for a while. I may not stay in a UPC church forever. I was in the ministry at a UPC church and maybe being out of the ministry for a while will make it better. But focus on the face of God and the voice of God. I promise that over the next few weeks you will hear what you think is the voice of God. Make sure it is the voice of God you hear and not the voice of the controling pastor taking the place of God's voice.

I can assure you, there is far more danger in thinking the voice of the flesh (self, the carnal nature we are born with) is the voice of God than there is in thinking the voice of some 'controlling pastor', as you put it, is God's voice.

Big revelation, friend: God has already revealed Himself in His Word, and He chooses to feed and lead His people through pastors after His own heart.

[Sherri]

I can assure you, there is far more danger in thinking the voice of the flesh (self, the carnal nature we are born with) is the voice of God than there is in thinking the voice of some 'controlling pastor', as you put it, is God's voice.

Big revelation, friend: God has already revealed Himself in His Word, and He chooses to feed and lead His people through pastors after His own heart.But Mich HAS been in some controlling situations, so it will take her some time to realize that not all pastors are alike. Most of them are God-fearing, people loving men of faith.

[SISTER Murphy]

But Mich HAS been in some controlling situations, so it will take her some time to realize that not all pastors are alike. Most of them are God-fearing, people loving men of faith.

I'm not denying any of Mich's past experiences. I am addressing a very serious issue that I have personally witnessed cause souls to fall away into error. I don't wish for that to happen to Mich, or anybody else.

[Scott Hutchinson]

We all need Spiritual mentoring and not control freaks ,but if you leave Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit one will indeed have left the church.

[nathan_slatter]

Free at last, free at last, Thank God almighty we're free at last... :D

[Trouvere]

Sister if you haven't left God don't stay home.Get out there and find out where you are supposed to be.We changed churches this year and are
glad about it.I loved the old church but felt out of place.Where we are
now is where we need to be and are rejoicing about it.I don't care what
the pastor preaches in non essentials because I have gone places that preached much harder than my personal convictions and was in the will of God but the essentials in doctrine
such a Oneness and Jesus Name baptism are important.If a church does
not do such then people are not getting the right salvation message.
There are One God Jesus Name churches that aren't UPC.Last year
we were a part of one.Don't give up or give in to staying at home
that will only lead to depression.

[CC1]

Michlow,

I appreciate your thread. My concern is a practical one from 48 years of observation.

Far too often those that become untethered from their foundations blow away in the wind and never seem to land on solid ground again.

As you know I share some of the same concerns you do for the UPC and old time Oneness Pentecost.

However I have always kept hold of what I consider my spiritual foundation and that is confidence in God, the work of Calvary, etc, etc. On a more practical level what I have kept hold of in my foundation is what I consider committment and faithfulness to the house and word of God.

Too many times I see folks who either get or seek a "better understanding" of things just end up unplugged from any assembly of believers. They are either all alone (a Coopite) or manage to find a handful of other malcontents who share concerns or views with them.

All I am saying is beware. Make an honest re-evaluation often to see if you are out in the ether living by the words of that famous song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on" or if you are willing to find a pastor and assembly you can submit yourself to for the important ministry to you spoken of in the Epistles.

[berkeley]

Would you please share your journey with us. :)

[Sheltiedad]

Free at last, free at last, Thank God almighty we're free at last... :D

What a waste, if she was famous they could do one of those, "I did it my way" sermons and talk about her tragic downward spiral... now all she can be is a faceless car wreck story. lol.

And now.... the end is near.... and I face.... the final curtain....

[SDG]

Free at last, free at last, Thank God almighty we're free at last... :D

Good to see ya Nate. :poloroid

[SDG]

She is a pastors daughter. My age... and that is all that you need to know :lol

And then there's the Orange .... oh never mind.

[ILuvFPC]

Michelow,
The UPC is NOT "the church!" Leave the UPC but don't leave the church! There are many good Apostolic churches out there w/o all the organizational drama!

[Barb]

Michlow,

I appreciate your thread. My concern is a practical one from 48 years of observation.

Far too often those that become untethered from their foundations blow away in the wind and never seem to land on solid ground again.

As you know I share some of the same concerns you do for the UPC and old time Oneness Pentecost.

However I have always kept hold of what I consider my spiritual foundation and that is confidence in God, the work of Calvary, etc, etc. On a more practical level what I have kept hold of in my foundation is what I consider committment and faithfulness to the house and word of God.

Too many times I see folks who either get or seek a "better understanding" of things just end up unplugged from any assembly of believers. They are either all alone (a Coopite) or manage to find a handful of other malcontents who share concerns or views with them.

All I am saying is beware. Make an honest re-evaluation often to see if you are out in the ether living by the words of that famous song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on" or if you are willing to find a pastor and assembly you can submit yourself to for the important ministry to you spoken of in the Epistles.

This is good advice, CC1...

[berkeley]

And then there's the Orange .... oh never mind.

awwww

[Sheltiedad]

This just in! They have discovered the Apostolic Salvation Requirements!!!!

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RqvJK29GXwQBIymjzbkF/SIG=1292rasff/EXP=1181777225/**http%3A//images.spaceref.com/news/2006/approval.lrg.jpg

[mfblume]

This just in! They have discovered the Apostolic Salvation Requirements!!!!

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RqvJK29GXwQBIymjzbkF/SIG=1292rasff/EXP=1181777225/**http%3A//images.spaceref.com/news/2006/approval.lrg.jpg

HAHA!

And who said it takes a rocket scientist to learn this?

[nathan_slatter]

Good to see ya Nate. :poloroid

I'm just a figment of your imagination... :D

[nathan_slatter]

SD -- just read this: It's hard to debate anything when the other side believes that any logical thought means you have been sent a delusion...

Bwahahahaha....

[nathan_slatter]

What a waste, if she was famous they could do one of those, "I did it my way" sermons and talk about her tragic downward spiral... now all she can be is a faceless car wreck story. lol.

And now.... the end is near.... and I face.... the final curtain....

*snicker* have you ever heard the serial killer one?

[berkeley]

*snicker* have you ever heard the serial killer one?

Does it have anything to do with a banana, and a bath tub full of milk?

[nathan_slatter]

Does it have anything to do with a banana, and a bath tub full of milk?

*screaming with laughter*

[HeavenlyOne]

Dearest Michlow,

For many years, I ahve dealt with several issues. I have walked down the same road you have, and traveled down a path that led me to where you are. I quickly found some things out, as a result of my seeking the truth...

The Messiah Jesus is still the same. He does not change despite when we change. He is strong and stable even when we are not. He is faithful to keep us when we are losing faith.

Michlow, I found that despite the arrogance of a few, the very things which you spoke of disagreeing with are the very things the Holy Spirit has led me to be restored into believing. I have had certain ministers slander and talk harshly towards me, some even attacking me, lying on me saying I was gay. These men are weeds in the field, and the Lord shall deal with them when He is ready.

My friend, heed my words. Instead of leaving, find yourself a sincere quiet place, pulled away, and seek His face. He will lead you. Turn off the computer, and bow the knee, and He will open your eyes to His ways and truths. He will show you, if you let Him.

Just some sincere thoughts.

Hallelu et Adonai!

What goes around, comes around, eh?

[berkeley]

*screaming with laughter*

Yes or No???? :hmmm

[berkeley]

What goes around, comes around, eh?

ohh.. I forgot about that!!

[HeavenlyOne]

Bro. H,

I have no intention of separating myself from other believers forever. I view my current situation as being in a holding pattern. For right now, I am leaning on fellow believers who have traveled this road before. It is not a permanent solution, just a temporary situation, but I thank you for your prayers.

I think your first step should be changing your sig line to something that's truthful and positive. You aren't what you claim to be!

Step up, Mich. You are a better person than that. I've been praying for ya.

[HeavenlyOne]

ohh.. I forgot about that!!

:D

I'm bad, aren't I?

[berkeley]

:D

I'm bad, aren't I?

He's still a UC.....

[Michlow]

Free at last, free at last, Thank God almighty we're free at last... :D

There is a reason I call you my evil twin! :friend

[Michlow]

Michlow,

I appreciate your thread. My concern is a practical one from 48 years of observation.

Far too often those that become untethered from their foundations blow away in the wind and never seem to land on solid ground again.

As you know I share some of the same concerns you do for the UPC and old time Oneness Pentecost.

However I have always kept hold of what I consider my spiritual foundation and that is confidence in God, the work of Calvary, etc, etc. On a more practical level what I have kept hold of in my foundation is what I consider committment and faithfulness to the house and word of God.

Too many times I see folks who either get or seek a "better understanding" of things just end up unplugged from any assembly of believers. They are either all alone (a Coopite) or manage to find a handful of other malcontents who share concerns or views with them.

All I am saying is beware. Make an honest re-evaluation often to see if you are out in the ether living by the words of that famous song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on" or if you are willing to find a pastor and assembly you can submit yourself to for the important ministry to you spoken of in the Epistles.

CeeCeeOne,

I appreciate your concerns, and I honestly have no desire to be isolated and cut off for the rest of my life. I do want to move forward. But I must be honest and say that right now, I have no idea what that entails. I guess I am waiting for God to tell me what the next step is. For now, I am not all the concerned with the great unknown. But if 2 years pass, and I have still not moved forward, then you have permission to smack me upside the head! :club

[Michlow]

Michelow,
The UPC is NOT "the church!" Leave the UPC but don't leave the church! There are many good Apostolic churches out there w/o all the organizational drama!

LOL, I need to change the title of this thread! I am leaving the only church organization that I have been apart of, but I am not leaving God or the church as is described in the Bible. (to my understanding)

[Michlow]

I think your first step should be changing your sig line to something that's truthful and positive. You aren't what you claim to be!

Step up, Mich. You are a better person than that. I've been praying for ya.

It may not be positive, but I can't say that in the eyes of your average conservative Apostolic it is untruthful. I have always tried to be transparent and above board. However, I could add the disclaimer *but God loves me anyway, if it would make you feel better ;)

[Whole Hearted]

If you have left the oneness of God, repentance, baptism in Jesus name, Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues and holy living ( holiness of lifestyle and dress, both inward and outward). If you have left any of these you have left the church. There is only one church.

[berkeley]

If you have left the oneness of God, repentance, baptism in Jesus name, Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues and holy living ( holiness of lifestyle and dress, both inward and outward). If you have left any of these you have left the church. There is only one church.

What is it that you people do not understand? No one here is advocating the dress style of a ho.

P.S.
did you call he whose info I gave you?

[Michlow]

If you have left the oneness of God, repentance, baptism in Jesus name, Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues and holy living ( holiness of lifestyle and dress, both inward and outward). If you have left any of these you have left the church. There is only one church.

Buh-bye :wave

[StillStanding]

Michlow, You do know that you're now going to hell, don't you? :club

[Michlow]

What is it that you people do not understand? No one here is advocating the dress style of a ho.

P.S.
did you call he whose info I gave you?

Oops! Did I forget to mention that part? Yep, the same day I "turned in my membership", I went out an got myself some hotpants and a tube top. Next week I'm gonna Pastor Tribble up and see if he will let me sing in his church :heeheehee

[Whole Hearted]

What is it that you people do not understand? No one here is advocating the dress style of a ho.

P.S.
did you call he whose info I gave you?

No too far away for any real fellowship.

[Michlow]

Michlow, You do know that you're now going to hell, don't you? :club

Awwww....you edited it before I could mock you! I was gonna ask if 'hel' was the liberal version, drop one 'L' and its not as hot! :D

[StillStanding]

Awwww....you edited it before I could mock you! I was gonna ask if 'hel' was the liberal version, drop one 'L' and its not as hot! :D

That's right! :killinme Hell needs two hockey sticks! :)

[Margies3]

That's right! :killinme Hell needs two hockey sticks! :)

Nope.
don't need no hockey sticks in hell. It's way too hot for ice. Nowhere to play hockey there. :killinme

[berkeley]

No too far away for any real fellowship.

too bad.. he's a great guy..

[Michlow]

Thanks BOOM for correcting the title for me! :friend

[Rico]

Oops! Did I forget to mention that part? Yep, the same day I "turned in my membership", I went out an got myself some hotpants and a tube top. Next week I'm gonna Pastor Tribble up and see if he will let me sing in his church :heeheehee

A tube top? Well, now you can sing in Bro Tribble's choir! :D

[Michlow]

A tube top? Well, now you can sing in Bro Tribble's choir! :D

I also went out and bought myself 17 tubes of mascara and various types of makeup, some pink hair dye, and hundreds of pictures of Tammy Faye & Jan Crouch, so I can get the look just right! :heeheehee

[Rico]

I also went out and bought myself 17 tubes of mascara and various types of makeup, some pink hair dye, and hundreds of pictures of Tammy Faye & Jan Crouch, so I can get the look just right! :heeheehee

Tribby would probly make you head of music department then. :D

[Margies3]

I also went out and bought myself 17 tubes of mascara and various types of makeup, some pink hair dye, and hundreds of pictures of Tammy Faye & Jan Crouch, so I can get the look just right! :heeheehee

17 tubes of mascara????

What you gonna do? use it to make your hair look longer?? I don't know if I've used 17 tubes in my entire life - and I'm OLD!!!!

[tamor]

I also went out and bought myself 17 tubes of mascara and various types of makeup, some pink hair dye, and hundreds of pictures of Tammy Faye & Jan Crouch, so I can get the look just right! :heeheehee

Don't forget the earbobs and bangle bracelets!

[Rico]

I feel a hoochie momma spirit getting ahold of this thread! Cast it out quick!

[Michlow]

Don't forget the earbobs and bangle bracelets!

My Husbands family has several jewelry stores in the greater Chicago area, so I have years of Christmas and Birthday presents that have been gathering dust in my jewelry box :muwahaha

[berkeley]

I feel a hoochie momma spirit getting ahold of this thread! Cast it out quick!

send it... nvm

[Rico]

I like my women just a little on the trashy side.............


























That's a song, for those of you from Rio Linda.

[berkeley]

Shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my Dad and Mom,
When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom.
They said: "Well, pardon us son, she ain't no kid.
"That's a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig.
I said: "I know it dad, ain't she cool, that's the kind I dig."

[Rico]

I like my women just a little on the trashy side.............


























That's a song, for those of you from Rio Linda.




.....too much lipstick and uh, too much rouge, leaves me excited. Leaves me feelin confused. Yeah, I like my women just a little on the trashy side! LOL!

[Michlow]

Shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my Dad and Mom,
When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom.
They said: "Well, pardon us son, she ain't no kid.
"That's a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig.
I said: "I know it dad, ain't she cool, that's the kind I dig."

.....too much lipstick and uh, too much rouge, leaves me excited. Leaves me feelin confused. Yeah, I like my women just a little on the trashy side! LOL!

Well at least you two are giving the UC's something else to be shocked at besides my apostasy! ;)

[Rico]

Well at least you two are giving the UC's something else to be shocked at besides my apostasy! ;)

Sister, once you get your getup all together and learn how to pile that mascara and blush on I am sure you will be more popular than ever! :D

[Michlow]

Sister, once you get your getup all together and learn how to pile that mascara and blush on I am sure you will be more popular than ever! :D

Ehhhh...I don't know that I WANT to be popular! I rather like being ignored thank you very much. Except for my husband, obviously. He of course, is completely insane, because he even thinks I look hot when I first wake up in the morning (and that pretty much makes him delusional!)

[Rico]

Now I have to go get my guitar and play this song or it will be in my head for the rest of the night. LOL!



Trashy Women

Conferate Railroad


A E A
Well I was raised a sophisticated kind of style
E
Yeah my taste in music & women drove my folks half wild
D A D
Mom & dad had a plan for me it was Debutantes & Cebanese
A E A
But I like my music & I like my women wild


chorus.... E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side
E
When they wear thier clothes too tight & thier hair is dyed
D
Too much lipstick & too much rouge
A D
gets me excited gets me feeling confused
A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side

E A
You shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my dad & mom
E
When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom
D
They said pardon us son but she ain't no kid
A D
That's a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig
A E A
I said I know it dad, aint she cool that's the kind I dig

chorus....

break... D A D A E A

A E A
Well I like 'em sweet I lik em with a heart of gold
E
Yeah I like 'em brassy, I like 'em brazen & bold
D A
Well they say opposites attract, well I don't agree
D
I want a woman just as tacky as me
A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side


chorus.....

D A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side

[tamor]

Now I have to go get my guitar and play this song or it will be in my head for the rest of the night. LOL!



Trashy Women

Conferate Railroad


A E A
Well I was raised a sophisticated kind of style
E
Yeah my taste in music & women drove my folks half wild
D A D
Mom & dad had a plan for me it was Debutantes & Cebanese
A E A
But I like my music & I like my women wild


chorus.... E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side
E
When they wear thier clothes too tight & thier hair is dyed
D
Too much lipstick & too much rouge
A D
gets me excited gets me feeling confused
A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side

E A
You shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my dad & mom
E
When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom
D
They said pardon us son but she ain't no kid
A D
That's a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig
A E A
I said I know it dad, aint she cool that's the kind I dig

chorus....

break... D A D A E A

A E A
Well I like 'em sweet I lik em with a heart of gold
E
Yeah I like 'em brassy, I like 'em brazen & bold
D A
Well they say opposites attract, well I don't agree
D
I want a woman just as tacky as me
A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side


chorus.....

D A E A
Yeah I like my women just a little on the trashy side

And Berkeley says life is not a musical... We come up with songs for so many conversations around here........:lol :lol

[tamor]

My Husbands family has several jewelry stores in the greater Chicago area, so I have years of Christmas and Birthday presents that have been gathering dust in my jewelry box :muwahaha

:highfive

[berkeley]

And Berkeley says life is not a musical. We come up with songs for so many conversations around here........:lol :lol

:13loads

[Steve Epley]

I see the title of the thread has been changed and the thread keeps sinking to a new low. But it don't shock me. When folks do not recieve the love of the truth bad things happen to their minds. I am still happy in the Apostolic church and it has been over 40 years.

[ILG]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

Hey Mich. Well, welcome to the club. It's bittersweet.

[Rico]

I see the title of the thread has been changed and the thread keeps sinking to a new low. But it don't shock me. When folks do not recieve the love of the truth bad things happen to their minds. I am still happy in the Apostolic church and it has been over 40 years.

Where would we be without people such as yourself, always ready to remind of how holy, righteous, sanctified, and in tune with God you are, while the rest of us are lowly, lost, undone, and headed for the pit of eternal flames. You are much needed among us, O Great Elder, and we humbly seek thy forgiveness for having some fun on this thread. Will we ever be worthy of your unending fountain of wisdom? :D

[Ronzo]

I'm just a figment of your imagination... :D
actually, you're a fig newton of his imagination...

[CupCake]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

Hi~ You left an organization, not God big difference.... But as you know many will say otherwise, enjoy you freedom in Christ.


His yoke is lite, but man comes along turn it into a noose ~

From the very beginning of His teaching, Jesus was a threat to the religious authorities, but many ordinary people followed Him. These people were confused by the different ways in which their teachers interpreted the Torah. Their teachings were mostly about rituals and outward formality. However, Jesus came with a teaching which was radically different.

http://www.apfn.net/250px-Knot-hangmans-noose.jpg

[tv1a]

Believer is the label you give yourself. Christian is the label people give you. Child of God is the label Jesus gives you.

[HeavenlyOne]

He's still a UC.....

Yeah, but he posted just today how pants might not send a woman to hell, but rebellion would....that's different than what he said a month ago...

[HeavenlyOne]

It may not be positive, but I can't say that in the eyes of your average conservative Apostolic it is untruthful. I have always tried to be transparent and above board. However, I could add the disclaimer *but God loves me anyway, if it would make you feel better ;)

My friend, I'm not sure why you say that you are seen that way in the eyes of the average conservative Apostolic. Are you believing that because you saw people like yourself in that light when you were conservative Apostolic and are judging yourself as you once judged others?

I ask that because that's how I am. Nobody can judge me more harshly than I judge myself, and I think it's due to how I judged others most of my life while being raised in the church. So when I was no longer conservative, I saw myself as I saw others who no longer were conservative.

Does that make sense?

[berkeley]

Yeah, but he posted just today how pants might not send a woman to hell, but rebellion would....that's different than what he said a month ago...

Really not the impression I got from the PM he sent me..:lol

[HeavenlyOne]

What is it that you people do not understand? No one here is advocating the dress style of a ho.

P.S.
did you call he whose info I gave you?

You have a problem with the way I dress???


Oh wait....that's not what you....nevermind.......

[Praxeas]

Labels save nobody.
Jesus saves. Truth saves. Faith saves. The Gospel saves. Obedience saves....labels save nobody nor do organizations

[berkeley]

You have a problem with the way I dress???


Oh wait....that's not what you....nevermind.......

:killinme

[HeavenlyOne]

Really not the impression I got from the PM he sent me..:lol

Ohhh....I'd ask, but I won't.....LOL!

[berkeley]

Ohhh....I'd ask, but I won't.....LOL!
:club

[Coffee99]

Michlow, I've been EXACTLY where you are, perhaps even more removed. I too left UPC.

It took me a very long time of praying and reading my Bible before I began to gain answers to my questions. Each time I opened my Bible, I would pray that God would lead me through His word and that I could completely clear my mind of all the interpretations I had been told, and just read His word fresh with no preconceived meanings. I also read alot of the early church history. But, always with prayer.

I found my church and have more peace with God than ever in my life. I'm now walking with Him because I love Him, not, as one writer put it, I was "in fear of hell and looking for the ultimate fire insurance." With honest prayer and study, you will find Him. I will pray for you.

[Steve Epley]

Michlow, I've been EXACTLY where you are, perhaps even more removed. I too left UPC.

It took me a very long time of praying and reading my Bible before I began to gain answers to my questions. Each time I opened my Bible, I would pray that God would lead me through His word and that I could completely clear my mind of all the interpretations I had been told, and just read His word fresh with no preconceived meanings. I also read alot of the early church history. But, always with prayer.

I found my church and have more peace with God than ever in my life. I'm now walking with Him because I love Him, not, as one writer put it, I was "in fear of hell and looking for the ultimate fire insurance." With honest prayer and study, you will find Him. I will pray for you.

What kind of church are you going to??? Is it Apostolic?

[ILG]

What kind of church are you going to??? Is it Apostolic?

Why do you want to know? So you can put "approved" or "rejected" upon her doorpost? :club

[Steve Epley]

Why do you want to know? So you can put "approved" or "rejected" upon her doorpost? :club

Just wondering where all this praying and deep study of the Bible took her?

[Ronzo]

Why do you want to know? So you can put "approved" or "rejected" upon her doorpost? :club
It ain't smoke if it ain't comin' from my chimney, ya know.

[Steve Epley]

It ain't smoke if it ain't comin' from my chimney, ya know.

Just wondering???????????? Are you going to a Pentecostal church?

[Whole Hearted]

Just wondering???????????? Are you going to a Pentecostal church?

You probable won't get an answer elder.

[ILG]

Just wondering where all this praying and deep study of the Bible took her?

Sure you do. :search

[nathan_slatter]

Sure you do. :search

HEY, ILG -- how are you doing today?

[ILG]

HEY, ILG -- how are you doing today?

Fine. What's up?? :)

[nathan_slatter]

Fine. What's up?? :)

Not much -- just haven't seen you in a while... thought I would exchange pleasantries... :D

[Malvaro]

I can't say that I am necessarily "leaving" the doctrine. Right now I am not doing anything with the doctrine.

In light of some recent threads, please specify if you consider yourself "ex-Pentecostal" or not....
I am only referencing the Apostolic doctrine, not standards or anything else UPC-related....

YES or NO

[nathan_slatter]

*grin* Apostolic according to who? :killinme

[Ronzo]

*grin* Apostolic according to who? :killinme

Seriously.

[Sheltiedad]

What if you believe in speaking in tongues but do not believe there is bible to require speaking in tongues... can you be Apostolic still?

[mfblume]

What if you believe in speaking in tongues but do not believe there is bible to require speaking in tongues... can you be Apostolic still?

Many denominations have used the term "apostolic" to describe their belief system, including the Catholic church. There is a movement called the NEW APOSTOLIC CHURCH which began before the UPC and Assemblies of God. Very dead and dry. No tongues at all.

Practically everyone uses the term, since they believe what they teach is what the apostles preached.

[Malvaro]

What if you believe in speaking in tongues but do not believe there is bible to require speaking in tongues... can you be Apostolic still?

why don't you try it and find out :D

[TrueNorth]

Anybody besides me tired of reading threads about getting in and out of church depending on the whim of the moment?

[Ronzo]

Anybody besides me tired of reading threads about getting in and out of church depending on the whim of the moment?

click on "Thread Tools" in the top right hand corner of the thread.

Then choose "Ignore Thread".

Poof! It's gone.

[HeavenlyOne]

What if you believe in speaking in tongues but do not believe there is bible to require speaking in tongues... can you be Apostolic still?

Uhoh.......

[HeavenlyOne]

click on "Thread Tools" in the top right hand corner of the thread.

Then choose "Ignore Thread".

Poof! It's gone.

LOL! It's that simple!

[Michlow]

Hey Mich. Well, welcome to the club. It's bittersweet.

Thanks ILG :friend

Hi~ You left an organization, not God big difference.... But as you know many will say otherwise, enjoy you freedom in Christ.


His yoke is lite, but man comes along turn it into a noose ~

From the very beginning of His teaching, Jesus was a threat to the religious authorities, but many ordinary people followed Him. These people were confused by the different ways in which their teachers interpreted the Torah. Their teachings were mostly about rituals and outward formality. However, Jesus came with a teaching which was radically different.

http://www.apfn.net/250px-Knot-hangmans-noose.jpg

Thanks Cupcake :friends

Believer is the label you give yourself. Christian is the label people give you. Child of God is the label Jesus gives you.

Awww...that's awesome! Thank You!

Michlow, I've been EXACTLY where you are, perhaps even more removed. I too left UPC.

It took me a very long time of praying and reading my Bible before I began to gain answers to my questions. Each time I opened my Bible, I would pray that God would lead me through His word and that I could completely clear my mind of all the interpretations I had been told, and just read His word fresh with no preconceived meanings. I also read alot of the early church history. But, always with prayer.

I found my church and have more peace with God than ever in my life. I'm now walking with Him because I love Him, not, as one writer put it, I was "in fear of hell and looking for the ultimate fire insurance." With honest prayer and study, you will find Him. I will pray for you.

I always appreciate all the prayers I can get! Thank you!

[Michlow]

In light of some recent threads, please specify if you consider yourself "ex-Pentecostal" or not....
I am only referencing the Apostolic doctrine, not standards or anything else UPC-related....

YES or NO

Hmmm...trying to pin me down, huh?

No, I do not consider myself "ex-pentecostal". To me, the pentecostal label has to do with the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, and as I received such baptism, and regularly speak in tongues, I therefore do consider myself to still be pentecostal.

However, I think that most likely is not the exact answer you are looking for. I am guessing you want to know if I am still PAJC? A 3-Stepper? Oneness?

My View of the Godhead has not changed. I believe in One God. His name is Jesus. Do I believe that one must repent, be baptized by full immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ (verbally spoken over the one being baptized) and then one must receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (with the intial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives the utterance) in order to be saved? Is this the answer you are looking for?

The simple answer is that I don't know. I still believe that people SHOULD do those things. I still believe that those are the BEST ways to go about it. Is baptism in the titles acceptable to God? Can one be filled with the Holy Ghost, without speaking in tongues? Are people saved at repentence? These are questions for others that are smarter than I am.

[Blubayou]

Mich - Remember you are on a journey- as we all are. I have seen something in your posts that I think is very special. You are searching for a real relationship with God. I believe you will find it, remain focused on HIM. I will be praying for you and look forward to hearing about your journey.

[Michlow]

Anybody besides me tired of reading threads about getting in and out of church depending on the whim of the moment?

Hi TrueNorth. Are you a newbie? I see you only have 22 posts. So perhaps you don't realize that this decision was at least 3 years in the making. If I wanted to leave on a "whim" as you stated, I could have done that a long time ago ;)

[Michlow]

Mich - Remember you are on a journey- as we all are. I have seen something in your posts that I think is very special. You are searching for a real relationship with God. I believe you will find it, remain focused on HIM. I will be praying for you and look forward to hearing about your journey.

Thank you for your prayers! :friend

[TrueNorth]

Hi TrueNorth. Are you a newbie? I see you only have 22 posts. So perhaps you don't realize that this decision was at least 3 years in the making. If I wanted to leave on a "whim" as you stated, I could have done that a long time ago ;)

No Ma'am I am not a Newbie, I am an oldie who hasn't bothered much lately because nothing interested me.

[TrueNorth]

click on "Thread Tools" in the top right hand corner of the thread.

Then choose "Ignore Thread".

Poof! It's gone.

That's too much work.
I could do like so many and just quit the forum leaving behind an angst filled post - but that would be too easy.

[Sheltiedad]

No Ma'am I am not a Newbie, I am an oldie who hasn't bothered much lately because nothing interested me.

Some of us feel the same way about church. :D

[StillStanding]

No Ma'am I am not a Newbie, I am an oldie who hasn't bothered much lately because nothing interested me.
TN, This is just a slow news time, so most threads are 'filler' threads! :)

Stick around......GC is around the corner! :D

[Rico]

TN, This is just a slow news time, so most threads are 'filler' threads! :)

Stick around......GC is around the corner! :D

All we will talk about then is the TV resolution, which will most likely fall into the lib V con category like everything else. But, things will certainly liven up a bit, that's for sure. :D

[ChTatum]

Sister,
I understand where you are, and feel only to tell you to continue to seek God.

I will be praying for you.

In the next few days, you should begin to feel a strong desire to move about 40 miles east........LOL!

[Michlow]

Sister,
I understand where you are, and feel only to tell you to continue to seek God.

I will be praying for you.

In the next few days, you should begin to feel a strong desire to move about 40 miles east........LOL!

:killinme

I was just telling someone, I think it was Bro. Scott Hutchinson, that you were too far to commute to, but close enough to visit! You really should PM me directions and service times, so that when the spirit hits me, I can just get in my car and drive ;)

[Rico]

Sister,
I understand where you are, and feel only to tell you to continue to seek God.

I will be praying for you.

In the next few days, you should begin to feel a strong desire to move about 40 miles east........LOL!


Wooooohooooooo! I agree with ya Brother! Heheeeeee! I did not realize y'all were that close.


Well, Sister Mich, here's one option for you to consider. :)

[Rico]

:killinme

I was just telling someone, I think it was Bro. Scott Hutchinson, that you were too far to commute to, but close enough to visit! You really should PM me directions and service times, so that when the spirit hits me, I can just get in my car and drive ;)

Oooooooo, Lawd! Let the Spirit hit her! Smack the Sister upside the head, Jesus! :D

[ChTatum]

:killinme

I was just telling someone, I think it was Bro. Scott Hutchinson, that you were too far to commute to, but close enough to visit! You really should PM me directions and service times, so that when the spirit hits me, I can just get in my car and drive ;)

Incoming PM.

I hope to have Bro. Hutchinson over this summer, for at least a weekend.

[Michlow]

Incoming PM.

I hope to have Bro. Hutchinson over this summer, for at least a weekend.

Make sure you tell me when! I will do my best to try and make it that weekend!

[Ronzo]

Sister,
I understand where you are, and feel only to tell you to continue to seek God.

I will be praying for you.

In the next few days, you should begin to feel a strong desire to move about 40 miles east........LOL!
If I lived in your area, I'd be there...

[Rico]

If I lived in your area, I'd be there...

Me too. I like Brother Tatum and I ain't sayin that just cause he's ok with beards.

[ChTatum]

Awwwwwww, hush up now, my head is swelling past my hairline.....

[aquestioninggirl]

Oooooooo, Lawd! Let the Spirit hit her! Smack the Sister upside the head, Jesus! :D

I love it you just make me spit my water!!!!:lol

[aquestioninggirl]

Michlow, I've been EXACTLY where you are, perhaps even more removed. I too left UPC.

It took me a very long time of praying and reading my Bible before I began to gain answers to my questions. Each time I opened my Bible, I would pray that God would lead me through His word and that I could completely clear my mind of all the interpretations I had been told, and just read His word fresh with no preconceived meanings. I also read alot of the early church history. But, always with prayer.

I found my church and have more peace with God than ever in my life. I'm now walking with Him because I love Him, not, as one writer put it, I was "in fear of hell and looking for the ultimate fire insurance." With honest prayer and study, you will find Him. I will pray for you.

AMEN!!!!!

[philjones]

Love ya, Mich!

Praying for you!

[berkeley]

Love ya, Mich!

Praying for you!I appreciate that you did not make it a point to kill the wounded. :)

[philjones]

I appreciate that you did not make it a point to kill the wounded. :)

Don't forget, Berk, I have been the wounded. :)

I found my way to wholeness... I have faith that Mich will too!

[berkeley]

Don't forget, Berk, I have been the wounded. :)

I found my way to wholeness... I have faith that Mich will too!

Amen. :)

[Subdued]

Don't forget, Berk, I have been the wounded. :)

I found my way to wholeness... I have faith that Mich will too!

I say AMEN, too!

[LaVonne]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)


Well Mich, I'm not exactly what kind of response you are expecting. I will always love you for the person you are, regardless if you attend church or not. I can't say I'm happy you've left UPC, because from what I've heard from you, you had a pretty decent pastor.

[Rico]

Well Mich, I'm not exactly what kind of response you are expecting. I will always love you for the person you are, regardless if you attend church or not. I can't say I'm happy you've left UPC, because from what I've heard from you, you had a pretty decent pastor.

Sister, all hope is not lost. I believe Sister Mich is considering at least one other apostolic church about 40 miles away.

[LaVonne]

Sister, all hope is not lost. I believe Sister Mich is considering at least one other apostolic church about 40 miles away.

That's good to hear! Mich and I haven't talked in awhile...and you just never know with that girl! :heeheehee

[Brett Prince]

I haven't been around much lately, and when I am, I mainly lurk. Many of you on here, have known me for over 3 years now, through all the various incarnations of the forum. You saw me liberal, and then conservative, and then go back to the liberal side of things. You have witnessed many changes in my character, some good, some bad.

I have always tried to be transparent and honest about my spriritual journey. I have never been one to shy away from admitting my struggles or doubts.

So with that in mind, I share the lastest chapter. Several weeks back, I made the decision to leave the apostolic church completely. Truth be told, for a long time, I was only halfway in. Yes, I questioned standards. But there were many other things I questioned as well. Recently I realized that I had reached a point where there was more that I disagreed with, that what I agreed with. I also realized that I no longer identified myself as "apostolic" or "upc", but simply as "christian" or a "believer". So the change is pretty minimal.

So Ultra-Con's, you can put on your sackcloth and ashes; and liberals you can rejoice ;)

Since I am really neither con nor lib, but a moderate, I wish that I could moderate.

Mich, I have walked much of this same road. I went from con to lib, back to con, and back to lib in many regards--and finally realized that I was fighting a battle that was somebody else's. My trouble was that I was trying to fit myself into somebody's "camp," where I didn't belong. As soon as I realized I differed with somebody, strongly, in a certain area, I seemed to just go jump into the other camp. I have done the same with endtime prophecy as well. I soon realized that I just had to be who I was.

I came to some conclusions about myself, and decided to stand there--and you are going to have to do the same.

I shall list some of mine.

I knew I would never be satisfied with:

1) Trinitarian doctrine. I believe it is patently false and a lie straight out of paganism.

2) Any other baptism but Jesus Name.

3) Professing the Spirit, without the demonstration thereof.

4) Worship that was not, at times, very demonstrative.

5) The display of the Gifts of the Spirit in worship services.

6) The level of modesty (or immodesty) displayed by the majority of Christendom.

7) The blurring of the visual lines between genders.

8) The level of dedication to God and to His work that I see in other circles.

9) Preaching without passion.

10) Trending towards whatever the new book, idea, or motif the other churches are doing, i.e, the Prayer of Jabez, the Rule of Six, Prosperity, Purpose Driven Life, etc. etc. (I am not saying that all of this is wrong, but it seems like churches go after something for a while, then change to follow something else.)

Everything does not have to be a salvational issue for me to believe it or follow it. I cannot follow what my spirit is not with. I cannot constantly halt between two opinions. I have to obey the voice of the Spirit, and let my inner man take the lead. I have to be what I am, whether that fits one camp or the other. If I am rejected by one side or the other, I just have to plod on. I am willing to make minor adjustments in my way in order to have fellowship with a group that is similarly minded, but I refuse to "play the part" or "go along" just to have some friends. I no longer "have leanings" toward this or that. I just accept where I am, and do my best to move forward and learn more.

Okay, enough rambling. I don't know if I am making any sense--and this probably has nothing to do with where you are. You're post just got me in a certain vein and I'm sharing. If it helps, thank God. If it doesn't...sorry for hijacking.

Bless you, Sister. I hope you have peace.

[Rico]

That's good to hear! Mich and I haven't talked in awhile...and you just never know with that girl! :heeheehee

Well, what can ya expect from someone whose screen name used to be Michelob? Well, that was her avatar. :D

[Michlow]

Well Mich, I'm not exactly what kind of response you are expecting. I will always love you for the person you are, regardless if you attend church or not. I can't say I'm happy you've left UPC, because from what I've heard from you, you had a pretty decent pastor.

I suppose this might be considered "preacher bashing" or get me labeled as bitter...etc.. but Yes, I did have a "pretty decent" pastor as far as UPC goes It's not about him personally, it's bigger than that. I mean, when it was just standards, it was fine. I could go there, and no one judged me or treated me poorly for not following them. But it's beyond that.

I know there are areas where we disagree, but I think our friendship can surpass those obstacles! I love ya girl! :friend

Sister, all hope is not lost. I believe Sister Mich is considering at least one other apostolic church about 40 miles away.

LOL, is that one of those speak those things that aren't as though they are, charismatic things? I would love to visit Bro. Tatums church on occasion, but Its an hour drive, and I doubt I will make it a regular thing!

[Michlow]

Since I am really neither con nor lib, but a moderate, I wish that I could moderate.

Mich, I have walked much of this same road. I went from con to lib, back to con, and back to lib in many regards--and finally realized that I was fighting a battle that was somebody else's. My trouble was that I was trying to fit myself into somebody's "camp," where I didn't belong. As soon as I realized I differed with somebody, strongly, in a certain area, I seemed to just go jump into the other camp. I have done the same with endtime prophecy as well. I soon realized that I just had to be who I was.

I came to some conclusions about myself, and decided to stand there--and you are going to have to do the same.

I shall list some of mine.

I knew I would never be satisfied with:

1) Trinitarian doctrine. I believe it is patently false and a lie straight out of paganism.

2) Any other baptism but Jesus Name.

3) Professing the Spirit, without the demonstration thereof.

4) Worship that was not, at times, very demonstrative.

5) The display of the Gifts of the Spirit in worship services.

6) The level of modesty (or immodesty) displayed by the majority of Christendom.

7) The blurring of the visual lines between genders.

8) The level of dedication to God and to His work that I see in other circles.

9) Preaching without passion.

10) Trending towards whatever the new book, idea, or motif the other churches are doing, i.e, the Prayer of Jabez, the Rule of Six, Prosperity, Purpose Driven Life, etc. etc. (I am not saying that all of this is wrong, but it seems like churches go after something for a while, then change to follow something else.)

Everything does not have to be a salvational issue for me to believe it or follow it. I cannot follow what my spirit is not with. I cannot constantly halt between two opinions. I have to obey the voice of the Spirit, and let my inner man take the lead. I have to be what I am, whether that fits one camp or the other. If I am rejected by one side or the other, I just have to plod on. I am willing to make minor adjustments in my way in order to have fellowship with a group that is similarly minded, but I refuse to "play the part" or "go along" just to have some friends. I no longer "have leanings" toward this or that. I just accept where I am, and do my best to move forward and learn more.

Okay, enough rambling. I don't know if I am making any sense--and this probably has nothing to do with where you are. You're post just got me in a certain vein and I'm sharing. If it helps, thank God. If it doesn't...sorry for hijacking.

Bless you, Sister. I hope you have peace.

Bro. Prince. You are right when you say that we need to determine where we stand, and not necessarily align ourselves based on what those around us believe. I am a person who strives to be as transparent and open as I can, so I have shared a lot of my doubts and struggles over the years. Though I have no doubt that I did appear to go back and forth, and though I went through stages where I either accepted (i.e. followed) or rejected standards, I never actually left the Apostolic church.

In the 7 years I have been a Christian, only three times have I attended a non-UPC church. One was a wedding (Lutheren), and two were charistmatic and attended as part of a "You go to my church, I'll go to yours" type deal. So I can't make a lot of judgements about what the churches of other denominations are like. I have not fairly examined any of the doctrines, such as the Trinity, except through the writings of OP apologetics.

The truth is, that everything I have studied out, has been filtered through the doctrine that I was taught in the Apostolic church. You may say "but that's OK, they taught you Truth". Then that should bear out in the end, as I truly believe that the Truth can withstand any amount of scrutiny.

Right now, spiritually, I am like a teenager. All I know is what my spiritual parents have taught me. I have now come to a place where I must make it my own, or find my own path.

[Ronzo]

I truly believe that the Truth can withstand any amount of scrutiny.
TRUTH can, sis.

What's left after you've sifted it, will be Truth.

[Rico]

I suppose this might be considered "preacher bashing" or get me labeled as bitter...etc.. but Yes, I did have a "pretty decent" pastor as far as UPC goes It's not about him personally, it's bigger than that. I mean, when it was just standards, it was fine. I could go there, and no one judged me or treated me poorly for not following them. But it's beyond that.

I know there are areas where we disagree, but I think our friendship can surpass those obstacles! I love ya girl! :friend



LOL, is that one of those speak those things that aren't as though they are, charismatic things? I would love to visit Bro. Tatums church on occasion, but Its an hour drive, and I doubt I will make it a regular thing!

Maybe, but as soon as the Lord moves upon you to move you will probly be a lot closer! :D

[COOPER]

is this the thread that has Boom upset?

[ChTatum]

Maybe, but as soon as the Lord moves upon you to move you will probly be a lot closer! :D


Now brother, don't presume the office of prophet......

[Rico]

Now brother, don't presume the office of prophet......

No prophesying here, Bro. Just speaking in faith for my Sister. :D

[LaVonne]

I suppose this might be considered "preacher bashing" or get me labeled as bitter...etc.. but Yes, I did have a "pretty decent" pastor as far as UPC goes It's not about him personally, it's bigger than that. I mean, when it was just standards, it was fine. I could go there, and no one judged me or treated me poorly for not following them. But it's beyond that.

I know there are areas where we disagree, but I think our friendship can surpass those obstacles! I love ya girl! :friend



LOL, is that one of those speak those things that aren't as though they are, charismatic things? I would love to visit Bro. Tatums church on occasion, but Its an hour drive, and I doubt I will make it a regular thing!

Yes our friendship will surpass these obstacles! You know I'm always here for you and I expect the same from you! :hug4

[CC1]

Michlow,

I better not run into you at an airport six months from now and see you bald headed and chanting "Hari Krishna"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coonskinner]

TRUTH can, sis.

What's left after you've sifted it, will be Truth.

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

[Ronzo]

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

[CC1]

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.


Coonskinner,

I share your concern that too many folks ignore the clear picture given in the Epistles of the importance of the "five fold ministry" in ones Christian walk.

Dan Scott talks about the heresay of people who live by that old song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on".

You ought to post a little Bible Study on the five fold ministry as a new thread. I probably would not agree with all of it but I am sure I would much.

[ILG]

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

CS,

I understand what you are saying and agree with it to a certain extent, but if we can't trust our own perceptions, what can we trust??

You mention three things that can be trusted.

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

Interpreted by who?

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

The Holy Ghost by what perception?

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

The five-fold ministry based on what guidelines?

See, this is somewhat circular logic you are using. I think that we DO have to base our choices on all these things......but, in the minds of some, all these things MUST lead to a certain interpretation of scripture or it is automatically assumed that the perception and/or motive of the person doing the praying is wrong. The pharisees would have loved this reasoning.

[Brett Prince]

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

Sorry, Ron, but you don't have to say things particularly to come across in a certain way. If Michlow is simply going to decide for herself what truth is, then she is going to effectively do just as CS has said.

In my post, I talked about having to stand where she is rather than fit a camp. That may also have come across as placing her as the sole arbiter of truth. That was not my point at all. My point was that she has to follow God, and allow her own convictions through the Word to shape her, not trying to fit somebody's camp. This caused much confusion for me through the years. I still had to listen to the five fold ministry, and I still had to be in the Word and in the Spirit.

Ron, you may well be in the same position as I, then, not intending what it may have looked like. If so, my apologies from the start.

[COOPER]

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

The five fold ministry is the weakest link. They are only sinners saved by grace.

Don't lean on your understanding, nor another mans understanding.

[Coonskinner]

I didn't say anything about removing any of those, did I?

Thanks.

You did not.

But your post indicated unequivocally that what was sifted by her--one individual--would be truth.

None of us alone can be the arbiters of truth.

That must be done in the context of the checks and balances given the Body of Christ.

Isolating one's self to search for truth is unscriptural and will always end up in deception.

Paul came and checked what he believed to be revelation with Peter and John before he would trust that it was right.

[nathan_slatter]

See, this is somewhat circular logic you are using. I think that we DO have to base our choices on all these things......but, in the minds of some, all these things MUST lead to a certain interpretation of scripture or it is automatically assumed that the perception and/or motive of the person doing the praying is wrong. The pharisees would have loved this reasoning.

Exactly...

But I'm already chalked up as being deceived, delusion, heretical, and a whole host of other things by many. In the end, though, I agree with those 3 requirements.... and because I don't come to the same conclusion I'm obviously not right -- due to my obvious postmodern bent, which is alleged to bring about moral relativity and a whole host of other things.

[ILG]

You did not.

But your post indicated unequivocally that what was sifted by her--one individual--would be truth.

None of us alone can be the arbiters of truth.

That must be done in the context of the checks and balances given the Body of Christ.

Isolating one's self to search for truth is unscriptural and will always end up in deception.

Paul came and checked what he believed to be revelation with Peter and John before he would trust that it was right.

He said TRUTH can stand scrutiny. Not whatever Michlow comes up with will be truth.

[Coonskinner]

The five fold ministry is the weakest link. They are only sinners saved by grace.

Don't lean on your understanding, nor another mans understanding.

They are God's Gift to the Church.

At least, that is what the Bible says.

Thanks for your estimation and esteem of what God gave His people. :)

I would perhaps describe the gift a little differently.

[nathan_slatter]

You did not.

But your post indicated unequivocally that what was sifted by her--one individual--would be truth.

None of us alone can be the arbiters of truth.

That must be done in the context of the checks and balances given the Body of Christ.

Isolating one's self to search for truth is unscriptural and will always end up in deception.

Paul came and checked what he believed to be revelation with Peter and John before he would trust that it was right.

Exactly... we must all have our checks and balances...

[nathan_slatter]

He said TRUTH can stand scrutiny. Not whatever Michlow comes up with will be truth.

Exactly.... I'm saying that quite a bit today... maybe I'm just being agreeable... :D

[COOPER]

They are God's Gift to the Church.

At least, that is what the Bible says.

Thanks for your estimation and esteem of what God gave His people. :)

I would perhaps describe the gift a little differently.

And I get very annoyed at anyone who thinks they are Gods gift.

[Coonskinner]

He said TRUTH can stand scrutiny. Not whatever Michlow comes up with will be truth.

He made two statements.

The first was that truth can withstand scrutiny. I agree.

This was the second, an exaact quote:

What's left after you've sifted it, will be Truth.

This statement clearly says, in an unqualified statement, that what is left after she--Michelle--has "sifted" it, will be truth.

It says it clearly, Sister.

[nathan_slatter]

And I get very annoyed at anyone who thinks they are Gods gift.

We are all God's gift -- even you... :D

[Coonskinner]

And I get very annoyed at anyone who thinks they are Gods gift.

Coop, the Scripture teaches that the ministry is God's Gift to the Church.

If you have a problem with that terminology, you will have to take it up with God.

The idea did not originate with me.

Would you like me to post the verses?

I think you know them, but I will if you like.

[ILG]

He made two statements.

The first was that truth can withstand scrutiny. I agree.

This was the second, an exaact quote:



This statement clearly says, in an unqualified statement, that what is left after she--Michelle--has "sifted" it, will be truth.

It says it clearly, Sister.

Okay, maybe he should have said if Michlow's heart is right and she is really desiring truth, after she sifts she will find truth. I figured that is what he meant.

[ILG]

We are all God's gift -- even you... :D

LOL! Yeah, even me too. :D Cool thought, NS. ;)

[SDG]

He made two statements.

The first was that truth can withstand scrutiny. I agree.

This was the second, an exaact quote:



This statement clearly says, in an unqualified statement, that what is left after she--Michelle--has "sifted" it, will be truth.

It says it clearly, Sister.

Ultimately it will be up to all of us to submit to the Word, the Spirit and ministry in sifting ... I don't see an inconsistency in Ron's statement ... I think that both Mich and Ron acknowledge the role of these things in their spiritual journey ... A reminder might be warranted ... but we are not dealing w/ immature believers ...

[Coonskinner]

Okay, maybe he should have said if Michlow's heart is right and she is really desiring truth, after she sifts she will find truth. I figured that is what he meant.

Thank you for the concession.

You are getting much closer to being right now. :)

[Digging4Truth]

Here is how the Bible listed the ministries.

Apostles
Prophets
Evanglists
Pastors
Teachers

Here is how todays church world sees the ministries.

Apostles
Prophets
Evanglists
Pastors
Teachers

[Coonskinner]

Ultimately it will be up to all of us to submit to the Word, the Spirit and ministry in sifting ... I don't see an inconsistency in Ron's statement ... I think that both Mich and Ron acknowledge the role of these things in their spiritual journey ... I reminder might be warranted ... but we are not dealing w/ immature believers ...

Michelle described herself as a spiritual teenager.

Teenagers definitely need the guidance of authority figures in their lives.

Do you disagree?

I have stayed out of this thread, partially because Michelle is someone I have been burdened for and have prayed for, and I don't want to get in conflict with her.

But I fear she is making some unwise decisions, and I hate to see wrong concepts trotted out that reinforce the faulty thinking.

[ILG]

Thank you for the concession.

You are getting much closer to being right now. :)

LOL! And you?? ;)

[Coonskinner]

Here is how the Bible listed the ministries.

Apostles
Prophets
Evanglists
Pastors
Teachers

Here is how todays church world sees the ministries.

Apostles
Prophets
Evanglists
Pastors
Teachers

I have long been a contender for the proper function of the five-fold ministry in the Body of Christ.

[ILG]

Michelle described herself as a spiritual teenager.

Teenagers definitely need the guidance of authority figures in their lives.

Do you disagree?

I have stayed out of this thread, partially because Michelle is someone I have been burdened for and have prayed for, and I don't want to get in conflict with her.

But I fear she is making some unwise decisions, and I hate to see wrong concepts trotted out that reinforce the faulty thinking.

Sometimes what seems unwise is actually a step of faith. I also have concerns for her, but I know also that if her heart is right that God will be with her.

[SDG]

Michelle described herself as a spiritual teenager.

Teenagers definitely need the guidance of authority figures in their lives.

Do you disagree?

I have stayed out of this thread, partially because Michelle is someone I have been burdened for and have prayed for, and I don't want to get in conflict with her.

But I fear she is making some unwise decisions, and I hate to see wrong concepts trotted out that reinforce the faulty thinking.

I would say ... that it's worrisome if she has not found a place to congregate ... however she has also admitted to being Spirit-filled and studying God's Word like never before .... we cannot discount the power of the Holy Ghost in her life ... simply because she's not UPC anymore

[Digging4Truth]

I have long been a contender for the proper function of the five-fold ministry in the Body of Christ.

What does a person do in that contention?

Do you get Apostles & Prophets to come and minister in your church on any regular basis?

[Coonskinner]

I would say ... that it's worrisome if she has not found a place to congregate ... however she has also admitted to being Spirit-filled and studying God's Word like never before .... we cannot discount the power of the Holy Ghost in her life ... simply because she's not UPC anymore

Daniel, her not being UPC anymore is the absolute least of my concerns.

[COOPER]

Coop, the Scripture teaches that the ministry is God's Gift to the Church.

If you have a problem with that terminology, you will have to take it up with God.

The idea did not originate with me.

Would you like me to post the verses?

I think you know them, but I will if you like.

Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father above.

Are you a perfect gift?

Men are not perfect they will never be and should never be viewed and trusted as such Perfect gifts.

[SDG]

What does a person do in that contention?

Do you get Apostles & Prophets to come and minister in your church on any regular basis?

Was going to ask the same question...

[Coonskinner]

What does a person do in that contention?

Do you get Apostles & Prophets to come and minister in your church on any regular basis?

Yes. As often as I can, and as the Spirit leads.

And in whatever circle of influence God has given me, I urge others to do so also.

[Coonskinner]

Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father above.

Are you a perfect gift?

Men are not perfect they will never be and should never be viewed and trusted as such Perfect gifts.

Cooper, I am not perfect.

Never have I claimed to be.

The ministry is God's gift.

Do you wish to debate that concept from the Scripture?

You'll lose.

[mizpeh]

Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father above.

Are you a perfect gift?

Men are not perfect they will never be and should never be viewed and trusted as such Perfect gifts.

Why don't you answer his question? Why do you think God gave the five fold ministry?

[Coonskinner]

Sometimes what seems unwise is actually a step of faith. I also have concerns for her, but I know also that if her heart is right that God will be with her.

As gently as I can say this, I have to assert that areas of clear violation of Scriptural principles (and I am not talking about standards) are indicators that all might not be well as far as heart condition and desire for truth goes.

[Digging4Truth]

Yes. As often as I can, and as the Spirit leads.

And in whatever circle of influence God has given me, I urge others to do so also.

One doesn't often find apostles & prophets in many UPC circles these days.

Who are some of the apostles & prophets that you have speak when the Spirit leads?

[Coonskinner]

Why don't you answer his question? Why do you think God gave the five fold ministry?

Sister,

This is one of the Scriptural principles our brother has always found problematic. He doesn't like to acknowledge it.

[SDG]

As gently as I can say this, I have to assert that areas of clear violation of Scriptural principles (and I am not talking about standards) are indicators that all might not be well as far as heart condition and desire for truth goes.

There you have it ... ladies and gentlemen ... a peek into Mich's soul .... there's a word for this ....

[Coonskinner]

One doesn't often find apostles & prophets in many UPC circles these days.

Who are some of the apostles & prophets that you have speak when the Spirit leads?

Digger,

Maybe you are in the wrong circles.

I would not be comfprtable naming names, and the men I would name would probably not be comfortable with me naming them as Apostles and Prophets in this setting.

[Old Paths]

THE GIFT is perfect not the man/woman.

Eph 4:8-16

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
KJV