Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around

[returnman]

Are there still any ultra con churches in the UPC? Pastors that keep there license but fellowship with only a few select UPC churches. Just wondering since there are alternatives without feeling left on an island anymore. For obvious reason I am doubt there is.

[Servant's <3]

Would that not imply that those ultra con churches consider themselves ultra cons?

It's my experience that the majority of people who are considered ultra conservative do not see themselves as ultra conservative.

[Monterrey]

No, next question?

[aegsm76]

I need your definition of ultra-con before I can answer that question.

Wedding rings?
Facial hair?
Dresses?
Uncut hair on women?
No TV?

I can say there there are quite a few of the above, that I know of.

[returnman]

I need your definition of ultra-con before I can answer that question.

Wedding rings?
Facial hair?
Dresses?
Uncut hair on women?
No TV?

I can say there there are quite a few of the above, that I know of.

Main criteria being that they see themselves as more conservative than the typical UPC church and like I stated don't fellowship the typical UPC functions. This is just the outside looking in type observation not some deep analytical question. LOL. I wouldn't consider no TV or uncut hair ultra but still moderate. If that is a criteria than I would have to consider UPC far lib. No wedding Rings? yeah, that is pretty con I would still agree.

[aegsm76]

There are several/many (not sure how many, but I can think of 10 right off) UPC affiliated churches that also fellowship WPF, GIB and other UPC churches.

[Garbonzo]

.... WPF, GIB and other UPC churches.

Help me with the alphabet soup.

WPF I know and UPC I know but GIB eludes me.
:nah

[returnman]

Help me with the alphabet soup.

WPF I know and UPC I know but GIB eludes me.
:nah

I think "Good Independent Brother"

[returnman]

There are several/many (not sure how many, but I can think of 10 right off) UPC affiliated churches that also fellowship WPF, GIB and other UPC churches.

It seems all the bigger names (cons) left. Guess some kept their credentials out of habit.

[derAlte]

I can think of a couple of UPC pastors who fellowship WPF mostly, have disaffiliated their churches but keep their UPC credentials for some reason. They gripe around about how liberal the UPC is but won't join their fellow travelers in the other organization. Not sure why...

[aegsm76]

I have noticed that many of the the "moderate" UPC churches have actually moved more conservative since the departure of many of the "ultra" cons.
Sort of strange...

[returnman]

I have noticed that many of the the "moderate" UPC churches have actually moved more conservative since the departure of many of the "ultra" cons.
Sort of strange...

Wendell Myers used to say "a lot of them preach it but I enforce it".

You can tell that stuck with me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have noticed that many of the the "moderate" UPC churches have actually moved more conservative since the departure of many of the "ultra" cons.
Sort of strange...

They must not of heard the news in Florida? :heeheehee

[Godsdrummer]

Wendell Myers used to say "a lot of them preach it but I enforce it".

You can tell that stuck with me.

Now that is a name I haven't heard in a while. Wendall Myers was epitome of ultra conservative in our state. To the point he would not hardly fellowship with the rest of us sinners. I always had a hard time respecting the man, on the other hand my first position as assistant pastor under Francis Mason, who held as strong of a position on standards, also kept an open heart and mind to if his position was wrong he would change after much prayer and study.

Seems to me the Ultra Conservatives pulled out and became an island to themselves and you don't hear much about them anymore.

[aegsm76]

GD - I run in both UPC and WPF "circles" and most of the WPF seems to be growing faster than the average UPC church. Also, seem to see more WPF new church plants than UPC (at least proportionally).
Of course I do not have as much insight with the "lib" side of the GIB or UPC, so my perception may be skewed.

[Godsdrummer]

I have noticed that many of the the "moderate" UPC churches have actually moved more conservative since the departure of many of the "ultra" cons.
Sort of strange...

I don't think that is the case at all. What was deemed moderate was only seen that way because the ultra con. were so ultra. At least in my state I have not seen much change one way or the other in the teaching of moderate UPC churches. I was raised in what was considered the most moderate, middle of the road churches in our state. And though I have been out of UPC for 10 years my parents are still members of that same church, and it has not changed at all.

Ah well just my opinion. Carry on.

[aegsm76]

GD - don't be so defensive! I appreciate the insight.
I will say that there are some churches that do not associate with the WPF, because they are not conservative enough, either.

[Steve Epley]

There a several Independent congregations in the NW and some AMF congregations. Most were UPC at one time.

[returnman]

There a several Independent congregations in the NW and some AMF congregations. Most were UPC at one time.

Washington is probably one of the most fragmented disjointed states in oneness circles. Even the cons can't agree enough to unify. Churches with 30-60 members spend more time at rah rah meetings for their own cause rather then getting to know the people in their communities.

[CC1]

Wendell Myers used to say "a lot of them preach it but I enforce it".

You can tell that stuck with me.

Sol he was "God's enforcer'? Sadly I think that is the perspective of too many Pentecostal preachers. Once again your statement validates my thesis that a lot of Pentecostal preachers model and think of themselves more like Old Testament Judges and Prophets than Jesus' ministry.

[aegsm76]

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat"
"Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

Looks like Paul considered himself "God's enforcer", also.

[votivesoul]

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat"
"Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

Looks like Paul considered himself "God's enforcer", also.

True, but Paul was a unique man with a unique calling and a unique authority. His ministry is not the basis for all New Testament ministries, and/or especially pastoral ministry. He was an Apostle of signs and wonders and diverse miracles, with a special commission to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles, called upon to write more than half of our New Covenant Scriptures.

It was within his right, therefore, to pen the words he penned, as you've quoted above. But he certainly didn't make anyone keep a standard he didn't author.

[Godsdrummer]

True, but Paul was a unique man with a unique calling and a unique authority. His ministry is not the basis for all New Testament ministries, and/or especially pastoral ministry. He was an Apostle of signs and wonders and diverse miracles, with a special commission to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles, called upon to write more than half of our New Covenant Scriptures.

It was within his right, therefore, to pen the words he penned, as you've quoted above. But he certainly didn't make anyone keep a standard he didn't author.

:thumbsup

[thephnxman]

True, but Paul was a unique man with a unique calling and a unique authority. His ministry is not the basis for all New Testament ministries, and/or especially pastoral ministry. He was an Apostle of signs and wonders and diverse miracles, with a special commission to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles, called upon to write more than half of our New Covenant Scriptures.
It was within his right, therefore, to pen the words he penned, as you've quoted above. But he certainly didn't make anyone keep a standard he didn't author.

Called a preacher...a teacher...an apostle.

Paul's calling to be an apostle was not "unique", except to the extent that he
was called to the Gentiles. But even then, it was not unique because Peter
was the first apostle to preach to the Gentiles. Even the "authority" Paul
exercised was not unique, as his alone.

Signs, wonders, and miracles followed Paul, even as they also followed the
other apostles. And lest we forget, there were the forty that the Lord sent
out before His face to: “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,
cast out demons." All this, and not to mention the authority and gifts of
the Spirit given to the Church!

The "standard" that Paul preached was not his, but belongs to the One who
said, "Be holy...as I am holy." Now if God wants us to be holy, it could be
because He has given us the power to be holy...unless we are having doubts
and believe not!

"...help thou mine unbelief...".

[aegsm76]

True, but Paul was a unique man with a unique calling and a unique authority. His ministry is not the basis for all New Testament ministries, and/or especially pastoral ministry. He was an Apostle of signs and wonders and diverse miracles, with a special commission to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles, called upon to write more than half of our New Covenant Scriptures.

It was within his right, therefore, to pen the words he penned, as you've quoted above. But he certainly didn't make anyone keep a standard he didn't author.

So we should discount his words and example in the scripture because of his "uniqueness"?

[returnman]

So we should discount his words and example in the scripture because of his "uniqueness"?

I don't read where votivesoul is saying the above but making the case for keeping scripture in context. Do the men and women sit on different sides of your church?

[consapente89]

I don't read where votivesoul is saying the above but making the case for keeping scripture in context. Do the men and women sit on different sides of your church?

No he didn't discount Paul's writings or authority, just the fact that men of God can operate with Apostolic authority today. If Apostolic authority is dead then the church is dead. It was Titus who was told to "speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority".
And Timothy was told to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

To contend for truth while exposing error and sin is apostolic.

[votivesoul]

So we should discount his words and example in the scripture because of his "uniqueness"?

By no means. But here's the kicker: Anyone can presume anything about their calling and authority, even if such presumptions are not true. Doesn't stop them from saying things they shouldn't say, or doing things they shouldn't do. Nor does it stop anyone from buying into the presumptions, as offered to everyone else.

The Ephesians put to the test those who said they were apostles, and Christ commended them for it. I know someone who thinks he is called to be an apostle and prophet, but has no signs, wonders, or diverse miracles backing him up to cause anyone with any real knowledge of Holy Scripture to think of him as such. His understanding of the Word is biased and in some places flimsy, yet it doesn't stop him from playing the "God told me" card. And he certainly won't submit to being tested by a local assembly.

So, my point in my previous post is this: The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. Paul dealt with a lot of talkers, especially by the Corinthians. And by dealing with them, I mean to say, he went straight to Corinth to see their display of power.

Without a display of Holy Spirit power, no one is qualified to enforce anything, regardless of what they say, or how they claim otherwise. The power of God comes with Apostolic and Prophetic calling. Until the power is demonstrated, no one can accurately claim to be either, therefore, they have no right to be the enforcer of anything, as the foundation of the church is not built upon them, but upon others.

[votivesoul]

Called a preacher...a teacher...an apostle.

Paul's calling to be an apostle was not "unique", except to the extent that he
was called to the Gentiles. But even then, it was not unique because Peter
was the first apostle to preach to the Gentiles. Even the "authority" Paul
exercised was not unique, as his alone.

Signs, wonders, and miracles followed Paul, even as they also followed the
other apostles. And lest we forget, there were the forty that the Lord sent
out before His face to: “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,
cast out demons." All this, and not to mention the authority and gifts of
the Spirit given to the Church!

The "standard" that Paul preached was not his, but belongs to the One who
said, "Be holy...as I am holy." Now if God wants us to be holy, it could be
because He has given us the power to be holy...unless we are having doubts
and believe not!

"...help thou mine unbelief...".

No doubts. I only mention Paul because he was the apostle being quoted. And yes, while other men were and are apostles, and other men, in the Gospels were given power to perform the miraculous, it doesn't negate the uniqueness of Paul's calling.

A careful study of Paul's life shows the Lord called Him to be and do many things He didn't call anyone else to be or do.

[Barb]

My brother is UPCI affiliated, and pastors in Illinois. I would consider him moderately conservative. :nod

[returnman]

My brother is UPCI affiliated, and pastors in Illinois. I would consider him moderately conservative. :nod

Thanks for returning to the original thread. Kind of threw me off.

[CC1]

My brother is UPCI affiliated, and pastors in Illinois. I would consider him moderately conservative. :nod

Here is a test;

1. Does he wear or allow people to wear short sleeves?
2. Does he preach against video of all sorts including home videos?
3. Does he not believe in video screens in the church for song lyrics and or image magnification?
4. Does he prohibit his young people from UPC events because he fears they will be corrupted by those with a lesser standard?

If he doesn't pass that test then he is just a moderate! (within the Oneness Pentecostal world anyway. For everybody else he would be very conservative anyway)

:happydance

[aegsm76]

Here is a test;

1. Does he wear or allow people to wear short sleeves?
2. Does he preach against video of all sorts including home videos?
3. Does he not believe in video screens in the church for song lyrics and or image magnification?
4. Does he prohibit his young people from UPC events because he fears they will be corrupted by those with a lesser standard?

If he doesn't pass that test then he is just a moderate! (within the Oneness Pentecostal world anyway. For everybody else he would be very conservative anyway)

:happydance

CC - most WPF churches "allow" 1, 2, & 3 now. As for #4, most I can say that for a time we stopped going to UPC youth events, due to some issues. And if you look at who the national leaders of the youth were at that time and where they are now, the uneasiness that we felt was God driven.

[aegsm76]

I don't read where votivesoul is saying the above but making the case for keeping scripture in context. Do the men and women sit on different sides of your church?

Did Paul say to make men and women sit on different sides of the church?
Also, please point out how I took the scriptures I posted out of context.

[Monterrey]

CC - most WPF churches "allow" 1, 2, & 3 now. As for #4, most I can say that for a time we stopped going to UPC youth events, due to some issues. And if you look at who the national leaders of the youth were at that time and where they are now, the uneasiness that we felt was God driven.

Which is hilarious because they used the TV vote as their reason to hit the eject button.

Then they turned around and started live streaming some services.

NW is not ultra conservative by any means. Floyd Odom was and is but not the present chairman. How they ever put him in is beyond me. Conservative not, political yes.

Then you go to youtube and pull up their special services, how can they take a zero stand against TV when they have live streaming and video?

Confusing.

[mfblume]

Did Paul say to make men and women sit on different sides of the church?
Also, please point out how I took the scriptures I posted out of context.

Scholars claim the women and men sat apart from each other for centuries under the Law and continued into the early church, giving rise for women to keep silence because they were talking across the fellowship asking their husbands what the preacher meant, and interrupting.

[returnman]

Did Paul say to make men and women sit on different sides of the church?
Also, please point out how I took the scriptures I posted out of context.

Not out of context with Paul's message but the application of taking Paul's admonition for that purpose and applying it to 20/21 century westernized authority. Of course I don't acknowledge the sole authority of an individual over a church the way it is practiced. Oneness churches don't operate within biblical church government. Elders and deacons are non existent in true form.

Pastors are a mirror of the celebrity world that the very same despise. You can't tell me different cause I been there and seen it for myself.
I go to bro.....so an so's church. Going to BOTT...next question....who's preaching? Oh man that ought to be good. And on and on. The typical conference is mere entertainment. Very wholesome however but again, a replacement for the world of entertainment that is rejected and despised.

[consapente89]

CC - most WPF churches "allow" 1, 2, & 3 now. As for #4, most I can say that for a time we stopped going to UPC youth events, due to some issues. And if you look at who the national leaders of the youth were at that time and where they are now, the uneasiness that we felt was God driven.

Much to my disappointment. I think the WPF as a fellowship is not as strong today as it originally set out to be. Still good men nonetheless.

[consapente89]

Which is hilarious because they used the TV vote as their reason to hit the eject button.

Then they turned around and started live streaming some services.

NW is not ultra conservative by any means. Floyd Odom was and is but not the present chairman. How they ever put him in is beyond me. Conservative not, political yes.

Then you go to youtube and pull up their special services, how can they take a zero stand against TV when they have live streaming and video?

Confusing.

They do take a stand against television and Hollywood type entertainment.. and to be commended for that at least. The current chairman is more conservative the majority of the UPCI, IMO.

[aegsm76]

Scholars claim the women and men sat apart from each other for centuries under the Law and continued into the early church, giving rise for women to keep silence because they were talking across the fellowship asking their husbands what the preacher meant, and interrupting.

No kidding.
Don't take my words out of context.
Lol
I was specifically quoting Paul's words of reprimand in response to a post that chided a preacher for enforcing standards.
Then here comes the smokescreen of "well here was the tradition in Paul's day" and "well Paul was unique and you cannot follow him for a ministerial example"...
Or at least that is what I got out of it.

[aegsm76]

Which is hilarious because they used the TV vote as their reason to hit the eject button.

Then they turned around and started live streaming some services.

NW is not ultra conservative by any means. Floyd Odom was and is but not the present chairman. How they ever put him in is beyond me. Conservative not, political yes.

Then you go to youtube and pull up their special services, how can they take a zero stand against TV when they have live streaming and video?

Confusing.

It wasn't so much the TV vote as it was the spirit behind it.
I do not know if I can totally explain it, but the TV issue had been soundly rejected 1-2 years before and now was up for vote again?
Why?
Also, many of the major voices behind the TV issue have now left the UPC and moved on to "greener" pastures.
So, they obviously had bigger issues than with the stand on TV.

[Esaias]

By no means. But here's the kicker: Anyone can presume anything about their calling and authority, even if such presumptions are not true. Doesn't stop them from saying things they shouldn't say, or doing things they shouldn't do. Nor does it stop anyone from buying into the presumptions, as offered to everyone else.

The Ephesians put to the test those who said they were apostles, and Christ commended them for it. I know someone who thinks he is called to be an apostle and prophet, but has no signs, wonders, or diverse miracles backing him up to cause anyone with any real knowledge of Holy Scripture to think of him as such. His understanding of the Word is biased and in some places flimsy, yet it doesn't stop him from playing the "God told me" card. And he certainly won't submit to being tested by a local assembly.

So, my point in my previous post is this: The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. Paul dealt with a lot of talkers, especially by the Corinthians. And by dealing with them, I mean to say, he went straight to Corinth to see their display of power.

Without a display of Holy Spirit power, no one is qualified to enforce anything, regardless of what they say, or how they claim otherwise. The power of God comes with Apostolic and Prophetic calling. Until the power is demonstrated, no one can accurately claim to be either, therefore, they have no right to be the enforcer of anything, as the foundation of the church is not built upon them, but upon others.

1. How would this test be performed today?

2. Have you or anyone you know ever performed this test? How'd it turn out?

3. Have you or anyone you know been given this test by another? How'd it turn out?

[Barb]

Here is a test;

1. Does he wear or allow people to wear short sleeves?
2. Does he preach against video of all sorts including home videos?
3. Does he not believe in video screens in the church for song lyrics and or image magnification?
4. Does he prohibit his young people from UPC events because he fears they will be corrupted by those with a lesser standard?

If he doesn't pass that test then he is just a moderate! (within the Oneness Pentecostal world anyway. For everybody else he would be very conservative anyway)

:happydanceThis is, of course, the gospel according to CC1... lol

Please tell me because I am curious, why can't someone observe moderation in all things, and be conservative?

[Steve Epley]

This is, of course, the gospel according to CC1... lol

Please tell me because I am curious, why can't someone observe moderation in all things, and be conservative?

2 of the four is no problem to me? Not labeled myself as an ultra con but been labeled that?

[Fionn mac Cumh]

The fact that standards differ from church to church proves how unbiblical they are. We all agree on GODhead and salvation but differ on how to dress ect...

[Luke]

2 of the four is no problem to me? Not labeled myself as an ultra con but been labeled that?

Brother Epley though I am not a minister with any oneness group I have also been labeled an ultra con on many occasions.

[votivesoul]

1. How would this test be performed today?

2. Have you or anyone you know ever performed this test? How'd it turn out?

3. Have you or anyone you know been given this test by another? How'd it turn out?

New Thread:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1421844#post1421844

[houston]

Brother Epley though I am not a minister with any oneness group I have also been labeled an ultra con on many occasions.

What? Why?

[aegsm76]

The fact that standards differ from church to church proves how unbiblical they are. We all agree on GODhead and salvation but differ on how to dress ect...

fmc - have to disagree. Paul addressed different issues with different churches. I have been in several different churches and some fight battles that others have no problems with.
Thus, different approaches based on what you are dealing with is necessary.

[Luke]

What? Why?Why am I not a minister with a oneness group or why have I been labeled an ultra con?

[houston]

Why am I not a minister with a oneness group or why have I been labeled an ultra con?
Why the label?

[Luke]

Why the label?
I hold to and preach both an inward standard of holiness and an outward standard of righteousness as necessary for remaining saved.

[aegsm76]

Legalist...
(tic)

[Fionn mac Cumh]

fmc - have to disagree. Paul addressed different issues with different churches. I have been in several different churches and some fight battles that others have no problems with.
Thus, different approaches based on what you are dealing with is necessary.

One lord, one faith, one baptism and multiple standards based on what you have a problem with? It has zero to do with battles that people fight and problems others may or may not have. It all depends on what bothers the pastor and what doesnt. Standards are man made ways to control the flock. They are unbiblical. There will be women in heaven that wore pants and makeup. There will be women in hell that never showed an ounce of flesh in their lives.

[Luke]

The things you mentioned are biblical.

[aegsm76]

One lord, one faith, one baptism and multiple standards based on what you have a problem with? It has zero to do with battles that people fight and problems others may or may not have. It all depends on what bothers the pastor and what doesnt. Standards are man made ways to control the flock. They are unbiblical. There will be women in heaven that wore pants and makeup. There will be women in hell that never showed an ounce of flesh in their lives.

fmc - I can say that I sort of agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.
The heart is the most important part of living for God. You can have all the outward trappings of a "spiritual" person, but be full of the devil.
However, I have never seen a "spiritual" person who looked like a "devil".
Also, every religious group in this world has "standards".
And there are clear "standards" in the Bible.
Some are not clear, but the principle is there.

[KeptByTheWord]

Our hearts are what will be judged by the Lord in that great and terrible day.

If the heart is in proper relationship with the Lord, the outer man will be reflective of the life of Christ living on the inside.

[Luke]

Our hearts are what will be judged by the Lord in that great and terrible day.

If the heart is in proper relationship with the Lord, the outer man will be reflective of the life of Christ living on the inside.

Can you please list one scripture the is specifically dealing with the day of judgment before God that says we will be judged according to anything other than our works.

[mfblume]

Can you please list one scripture the is specifically dealing with the day of judgment before God that says we will be judged according to anything other than our works.

Judg,emt by our works does not determine heaven or hell. We are judged for heaven or hell by whether or not we get our names in the book of life. Judgment for our works only proves the cross was not applied by faith to cause God to forgive us of our works, for no one can be saved by works.

[LifeGuide]

Judg,emt by our works does not determine heaven or hell. We are judged for heaven or hell by whether or not we get our names in the book of life. Judgment for our works only proves the cross was not applied by faith to cause God to forgive us of our works, for no one can be saved by works.

This is such truth. I heard one Pentecostal pioneer put it this way. It's the cross (the blood) that saves us. When i think of that sacrifice, I can't help but act or work in a way that leaks Jesus. They will know you by your fruits. Having gardened the last few years. I've grown to appreciate the cultivating (work) process. Not sure if that made sense or not.

[Luke]

Judg,emt by our works does not determine heaven or hell. We are judged for heaven or hell by whether or not we get our names in the book of life. Judgment for our works only proves the cross was not applied by faith to cause God to forgive us of our works, for no one can be saved by works.

I agree we are not saved by works that would legalism. Salvation is a free gift from God by grace through faith bought by the blood of Jesus. After we are saved we must live in accordance to the Bible a life of obedience to God. As my question stated earlier I don't think there is one passage in the Bible that teaches final judgement based on your heart but rather on your works because your works reveal your heart. Even in the passage that deals with the book of life and judgement it specificly states all are judged according to their works. Therefore I again ask for any reference to final judgement that says we are judged by heart attituted or condition and not works?

[mfblume]

This is such truth. I heard one Pentecostal pioneer put it this way. It's the cross (the blood) that saves us. When i think of that sacrifice, I can't help but act or work in a way that leaks Jesus. They will know you by your fruits. Having gardened the last few years. I've grown to appreciate the cultivating (work) process. Not sure if that made sense or not.

Awesome!

[Fionn mac Cumh]

fmc - I can say that I sort of agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.
The heart is the most important part of living for God. You can have all the outward trappings of a "spiritual" person, but be full of the devil.
However, I have never seen a "spiritual" person who looked like a "devil".
Also, every religious group in this world has "standards".
And there are clear "standards" in the Bible.
Some are not clear, but the principle is there.

So let me get this straight, important things like the GOD head, and salvation are clear as day in the bible, yet we leave things like dress ect. up to not clear principals? Even the word standard isnt a biblical word as it pertains to dress ect. Take things like facial hair. Its clear that Jesus and others had facial hair, yet you get accused of being a biker hippie when you have facial hair. I am not saying you should go around shirtless as a man or have your tattas hanging out if you're a women. But to make it seem like pants on a lady, or short sleeves on a man, are heaven or hell issues it adding to the word of GOD. Do you know what the word says about that?

[aegsm76]

fmc - facial hair? Umm, you must not have heard, UPC now has no "official" issue with facial hair. Matter of fact I was at a men's conference in the last month and out of 500-600 probably 10-20% had facial hair.
Now pants for women? I am sure you know what the word says. With that in mind, when did pants change from men's apparel to women's?

[returnman]

fmc - facial hair? Umm, you must not have heard, UPC now has no "official" issue with facial hair. Matter of fact I was at a men's conference in the last month and out of 500-600 probably 10-20% had facial hair.
Now pants for women? I am sure you know what the word says. With that in mind, when did pants change from men's apparel to women's?

I sure know. It says that a woman shouldn't wear a mans pants and a man shouldn't wear a woman's pants.

[aegsm76]

Hmmm, so guys wearing dresses are ok, so long as they are men's dresses?
And I ain't talkin about kilts!

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Hmmm, so guys wearing dresses are ok, so long as they are men's dresses?
And I ain't talkin about kilts!

Well they didnt have pants in the bible right? Robes kinda look like dresses.

[Godsdrummer]

Just reading some of these post just reinforces the fact that so many people do not have a clue to what scripture really says on subjects like dress, and hair. Instead they just repeat the party line.

I wonder if people really read the post they write, after they write them, they must not, or they would realize just how juvenile they sound to an outside person.

[Godsdrummer]

I agree we are not saved by works that would legalism. Salvation is a free gift from God by grace through faith bought by the blood of Jesus. After we are saved we must live in accordance to the Bible a life of obedience to God. As my question stated earlier I don't think there is one passage in the Bible that teaches final judgement based on your heart but rather on your works because your works reveal your heart. Even in the passage that deals with the book of life and judgement it specificly states all are judged according to their works. Therefore I again ask for any reference to final judgement that says we are judged by heart attituted or condition and not works?

I would have to agree with Mike, though every man women and child are judged by their works, eternal life is given because our names are written in the lambs book of life.

[returnman]

Just reading some of these post just reinforces the fact that so many people do not have a clue to what scripture really says on subjects like dress, and hair. Instead they just repeat the party line.

I wonder if people really read the post they write, after they write them, they must not, or they would realize just how juvenile they sound to an outside person.

I found it shocking what saints will back just because someone they hold in high esteem said it. After listening to a message once on tape and giving it back I told the individual I didn't think it was right for the man to publicly make fun of another preacher especially by name. He had so "great respect" that he had no problem with it. That was about the last time we shared any such discussion. This dude was over the top.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

People will find any excuse to hole on to their man made rules.

[mfblume]

fmc - facial hair? Umm, you must not have heard, UPC now has no "official" issue with facial hair. Matter of fact I was at a men's conference in the last month and out of 500-600 probably 10-20% had facial hair.



What about for preachers?

[aegsm76]

What about for preachers?

One of my friends who pastors a fairly large church in the NE has a full beard.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Are all these man made standards heaven or hell issues?

[aegsm76]

Examples?

[BrotherEastman]

I can think of a couple of UPC pastors who fellowship WPF mostly, have disaffiliated their churches but keep their UPC credentials for some reason. They gripe around about how liberal the UPC is but won't join their fellow travelers in the other organization. Not sure why...

ill tell you why, its because they wa
nna still feel like guard dogs...

[rdp]

*Biblical separation is 100% biblical. What's "man made" is the liberals (like some on this thread) who do their dead-level best to try to explain away crystal-clear Scripture in order to justify their worldly lifestyles.

*Shameful...& still claiming to be biblical "Christians????" According to God's word, those type of folks won't be saved. Friend of the world is the enemy of God.


*Oh, & no, there aren't any "UPC (or WPF) Ultra Cons" left - Next :happydance?

[FlamingZword]

*Biblical separation is 100% biblical. What's "man made" is the liberals (like some on this thread) who do their dead-level best to try to explain away crystal-clear Scripture in order to justify their worldly lifestyles.

*Shameful...& still claiming to be biblical "Christians????" According to God's word, those type of folks won't be saved. Friend of the world is the enemy of God.


*Oh, & no, there aren't any "UPC (or WPF) Ultra Cons" left - Next :happydance?


OK give one crystal-clear Scripture that teaches beards are sinful.

[rdp]

OK give one crystal-clear Scripture that teaches beards are sinful.

*You apparently didn't read my post closely enough. I was careful to reference crystal-clear "Scripture."

*I don't spend a lot of time on here for obvious reasons (such as on this thread).

[Evang.Benincasa]

*You apparently didn't read my post closely enough. I was careful to reference crystal-clear "Scripture."

*I don't spend a lot of time on here for obvious reasons (such as on this thread).


RDP you time spent here is appreciated. :thumbsup

[rdp]

RDP you time spent here is appreciated. :thumbsup

*Thank you - you are kind sir. But, me-thinks ye wouldest be in the minority on here w. that opinion :thumbsup.

*Read somewhere on here where someone said dress codes were "man-made" & a mere "unbiblical tradition" (apparently they can go to "church" in a bikini & their under-attire :heeheehee). They obviously read from the ISIV - I-Say-It-Version :nod.

*The Bible I read is littered w. admonitions toward modest attire by God's people. Mind-boggling how far folks can descend from biblical doctrine in order to justify a love of the world in their heart.

[FlamingZword]

*Thank you - you are kind sir. But, me-thinks ye wouldest be in the minority on here w. that opinion :thumbsup.

*Read somewhere on here where someone said dress codes were "man-made" & a mere "unbiblical tradition" (apparently they can go to "church" in a bikini & their under-attire :heeheehee). They obviously read from the ISIV - I-Say-It-Version :nod.

*The Bible I read is littered w. admonitions toward modest attire by God's people. Mind-boggling how far folks can descend from biblical doctrine in order to justify a love of the world in their heart.


Could you tell me which member of this forum has a church where people go to church in a bikini & their under-attire?
I might want to visit their church. :D

[consapente89]

"UPC (or WPF) Ultra Cons" left -

:heeheehee

[returnman]

OK give one crystal-clear Scripture that teaches beards are sinful.

It's a beard thing. LOL. Interesting what we keep at our forefront. I have never had a beard and certainly never had a problem with facial hair. The military prepped me for apostolic life. Was used to obeying the rules.

[votivesoul]

*Biblical separation is 100% biblical. What's "man made" is the liberals (like some on this thread) who do their dead-level best to try to explain away crystal-clear Scripture in order to justify their worldly lifestyles.

*Shameful...& still claiming to be biblical "Christians????" According to God's word, those type of folks won't be saved. Friend of the world is the enemy of God.


*Oh, & no, there aren't any "UPC (or WPF) Ultra Cons" left - Next :happydance?


Can a person be separated unto God, have no friendship with the world, obey crystal-clear Scripture, without a worldly lifestyle anywhere present, be a Biblical "Christian", and NOT be an "ultra-con"?

[FlamingZword]

It's a beard thing. LOL. Interesting what we keep at our forefront. I have never had a beard and certainly never had a problem with facial hair. The military prepped me for apostolic life. Was used to obeying the rules.

I was military and no the Military life does not prep anyone for the apostolic life.
We do not have a problem obeying God's rules, which is not the same as man's rules.

The Apostles were given the rule not to speak about the name of Jesus, it seems to me they were not too much into obeying the rules. :D