What would you do in my place?

[Pastor Keith]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

[Praxeas]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a larger non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?
If your views can co-exist with that of the other group, join them, other wise stay independent.

[Malvaro]

However I have been asked by a larger non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

Does the independent group stand true to the doctrine, or are they wishy-washy in that regard???

[WordPreacher]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a larger non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

Have you prayed about it?

BTW, I have found that in the UPC, to be able to get a license with them, it is not what you know, but who you know. If you don't follow their politics, then it would be hard to be licensed with them.

I have found that I am not accepted by Apostolic organizations, so I am part of a trinitarian org that accepts me, even though I do not believe in their doctrine and there are some ex-UPCers in this org.

[Pastor Keith]

Does the independent group stand true to the doctrine, or are they wishy-washy in that regard???

I believe that they are not hard and fast and hold a broad view of salvation, most characterized by a liberal PCI view of salvation.

[revrandy]

Call the Bishop...

[Pastor Keith]

Have you prayed about it?

BTW, I have found that in the UPC, to be able to get a license with them, it is not what you know, but who you know. If you don't follow their politics, then it would be hard to be licensed with them.

I have been praying about this over the last 7 years, my only desire is to a part of something larger than myself, make a contribution, and gain some of what is best about the UPCI.

[Pastor Keith]

If your views can co-exist with that of the other group, join them, other wise stay independent.

I think they would tolerate me, one of my questions is to them will be I still feel Acts 2:38 to be normative response to the Gospel, is there room in your big tents for me, I want to be accepted not simply tolerated?

[COOPER]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a larger non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?
is this group in Amarillo too?

[Pastor Keith]

is this group in Amarillo too?

Not sure?

[philjones]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a larger non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

Bro. Keith,

First, let me say that this is tragic for the souls of your city.

As to the real question, I would ask myself if I could walk in agreement with the men of this larger group. I would also ask myself if fellowship and membership in this group would positively or negatively affect my walk with God.

It is a tough situation and one I have been contemplating for several years. Desiring covering and fellowship I have explored many opportunities with numerous groups and I have come away convinced that I am prospered spiritually and ministerially more by remaining an independent fellowshipping in UPC circles.

I will be in prayer for the direction of the Holy Spirit in this matter as I see the decision affecting not only your ministry, but also your family.

[WordPreacher]

I have been praying about this over the last 7 years, my only desire is to a part of something larger than myself, make a contribution, and gain some of what is best about the UPCI.

I understand that completely. There are some good things being a part of the UPCI and I pray that God's will is done in this situation.

[Hoovie]

K4H, Call your church the Pentecostal Fellowship Church and show up at every possible UPC function - local, district, and national and when someone asks why you aren't licensed UPC tell them. You will have the respect and the fellowship with the exception of a few narrow minds.

[WordPreacher]

K4H, Call your church the Pentecostal Fellowship Church and show up at every possible UPC function - local, district, and national and when someone asks why you aren't licensed UPC tell them. You will have the respect and the fellowship with the exception of a few narrow minds.

:killinme:killinme:lol:lol

[Pastor Keith]

Bro. Keith,

First, let me say that this is tragic for the souls of your city.

As to the real question, I would ask myself if I could walk in agreement with the men of this larger group. I would also ask myself if fellowship and membership in this group would positively or negatively affect my walk with God.

It is a tough situation and one I have been contemplating for several years. Desiring covering and fellowship I have explored many opportunities with numerous groups and I have come away convinced that I am prospered spiritually and ministerially more by remaining an independent fellowshipping in UPC circles.

I will be in prayer for the direction of the Holy Spirit in this matter as I see the decision affecting not only your ministry, but also your family.


I have a feeling this is will be where I remain. Thank you for your wise post!

I still want my children (sons) to marry girls who believe as we do, when they are older I will take them to a large local UPC church for them to do youth activities with.

[Pastor Keith]

K4H, Call your church the Pentecostal Fellowship Church and show up at every possible UPC function - local, district, and national and when someone asks why you aren't licensed UPC tell them. You will have the respect and the fellowship with the exception of a few narrow minds.

I do actually like that name!

But I don't think you are familar with the forces at work in the Western District.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I do actually like that name!

But I don't think you are familar with the forces at work in the Western District.

If you moved 10 miles down the road, would the Bishop allow you then to start it up?

[Rico]

Ok. First of all, let me say that it is completely unreasonable for one man to think his church will be enough to serve the needs of the people in a city of70,000. I would go over whose ever head I needed to to join, if I were you, Brother. Just make sure it's something the Lord wants you to do.

[WordPreacher]

Ok. First of all, let me say that it is completely unreasonable for one man to think his church will be enough to serve the needs of the people in a city of70,000. I would go over whose ever head I needed to to join, if I were you, Brother. Just make sure it's something the Lord wants you to do.

Preach it Bro!!!!

[Hoovie]

I do actually like that name!

But I don't think you are familar with the forces at work in the Western District.

How about just continuing what you are doing and hope to get the credentials in the future. As you know it is easier to say "no" to a possible new work then it is to rebuff a work that is already in existence and has a track record of attendance and established membership. The longer you are there the more credible becomes your arguement.

[Praxeas]

I think they would tolerate me, one of my questions is to them will be I still feel Acts 2:38 to be normative response to the Gospel, is there room in your big tents for me, I want to be accepted not simply tolerated?

Gee...you know it's too bad some guys can't get together and form a group based around Oneness, the Pentecostal experience and believing in water baptism in Jesus name without everyone contending for their different views to the disunity of the body...has anyone ever thought of doing that? And if there is such a group that believes and practices it let me knowm :-)

[Praxeas]

BTW there are cities larger than 70k and only one church. The problem is many fold...

New pastor comes in and has no problem building his church from members of the other church than starting from scratch.

Old pastor feels threatened and is now no longer fighting the devil but another pastor trying to steal saints from his church.

The old pastor may not necessarily even be a bad pastor...he may though be less liberal leaning than the other and because we live in a society where not only is there a McDonalds on every corner to choose from if you don't like one but there are also just as many churches. Sometimes this can be a good thing and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

The problem I think is lack of oversite of those churches...perhaps our churches have too much autonomy if one established church in a city can take members from another established church in a city and build a congregation that way. That's not church building.

It has happened. I am in NO way suggesting Keith does that, but I think that is why some pastors fight other UPCs being built in their city....but in the long run this really shows just how far away from God we really are and in disunity we are.

[ManOfWord]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?


If I were in your place, I would do what I have done. I left the UPC 10 yrs ago and have not looked even ONCE. It is not out of disgust that I have not looked back. I have not looked back because I believe that I followed the "Cloud" when I left. That being said, I have had numerous "invitations" to join other orgs. The only reason that I have not is that for me, in the city I pastor in, being completely independent affords me the ability to make a difference in far more circles than if I were part of an org. I'm not against orgs at all. I have just found that, for me anyway, that the org benefits more from the membership of the ministers than the minister does. Funds flow primarily in one direction only.

I have a good rapport with the other ministers in my city. If someone comes from another church, I normally call the pastor to see what's up. Even if the person is leaving to find more truth. It protects my relationships, builds trust, and saves me heartache as well. I want people who feel called to leave their church to do so with their relationship with their pastor intact, if at all possible.

I personally think it is despicable for ANY church to think that they have a RIGHT to the people in a city. Organizations have been the greatest thing to missions and at the same time the worst thing for sinners looking for a chuch when that paradigm, (which I believe is from hell) dominates a group.

[CC1]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?


You are obviously in rebellion and not the will of God. You should resign your church, put yourself under a UPC pastor for a year or two of restoration, then go to a town where they actually want a UPC church.

There are probably hundreds maybe even thousands of towns across the nation where the UPC would gladly welcome a Home Missions church so there is no reason for you to compete with a local UPC pastor who wants no competition.

[Praxeas]

BTW this does NOT happen everywhere, all the time. There are cities with several UPCs in it.

[Rico]

BTW this does NOT happen everywhere, all the time. There are cities with several UPCs in it.

We know. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that in a city of 70,000 people that one man can have so much say over whether a new church gets established. That is downright stupid!

[Praxeas]

I've always thought that, but at the same time there are a lot of cities here that have no UPC at all...

Question, what if God calls a man to start a church in a certain city and the local board says no?

Why do we have so many cities...many with populations as large or larger than Keiths?

Why aren't we planting MORE churches when there are men like Keith willing to start one?

Something is messed up

[WordPreacher]

I've always thought that, but at the same time there are a lot of cities here that have no UPC at all...

Question, what if God calls a man to start a church in a certain city and the local board says no?

Why do we have so many cities...many with populations as large or larger than Keiths?

Why aren't we planting MORE churches when there are men like Keith willing to start one?

Something is messed up

Bro,

It is sad indeed and people need to hear the truth, but when something goes on like this, it is carnality that pastors have that stop the progress of reaching people for the kingdom.

[TalkLady]

If I were in your place, I would do what I have done. I left the UPC 10 yrs ago and have not looked even ONCE. It is not out of disgust that I have not looked back. I have not looked back because I believe that I followed the "Cloud" when I left. That being said, I have had numerous "invitations" to join other orgs. The only reason that I have not is that for me, in the city I pastor in, being completely independent affords me the ability to make a difference in far more circles than if I were part of an org. I'm not against orgs at all. I have just found that, for me anyway, that the org benefits more from the membership of the ministers than the minister does. Funds flow primarily in one direction only.

I have a good rapport with the other ministers in my city. If someone comes from another church, I normally call the pastor to see what's up. Even if the person is leaving to find more truth. It protects my relationships, builds trust, and saves me heartache as well. I want people who feel called to leave their church to do so with their relationship with their pastor intact, if at all possible.

I personally think it is despicable for ANY church to think that they have a RIGHT to the people in a city. Organizations have been the greatest thing to missions and at the same time the worst thing for sinners looking for a chuch when that paradigm, (which I believe is from hell) dominates a group.


SO TRUE in what you said in this last paragraph.. BUT SADLY SO TRUE IN THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION you mention here.

[Scott Hutchinson]

My advice would be to pray about the matter ,but hey there's alot of fellowship groups out there.Wheter you have a card or not ,you'll still be in the Ark as long as you are in Christ.

[WordPreacher]

You are obviously in rebellion and not the will of God. You should resign your church, put yourself under a UPC pastor for a year or two of restoration, then go to a town where they actually want a UPC church.

There are probably hundreds maybe even thousands of towns across the nation where the UPC would gladly welcome a Home Missions church so there is no reason for you to compete with a local UPC pastor who wants no competition.

That is mean or were you joking?

[WordPreacher]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

This is what carnality does.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

They won't allow you to reach any of the 70,000?

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

The org itself is not bad, but in an org that size, you will find some carnality, greed, and other things that make it look bad.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

That is so sad.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

That would be cool if it is God's will.

Should I do this?

What saith the Lord?

[Monkeyman]

Keith, hey man! Randy had it right...CALL THE BISHOP!!!!! Praying for ya bro.

[WordPreacher]

She tried to commit suicide and she thinks that she is useless and that nobody loves her.

[TalkLady]

She tried to commit suicide and she thinks that she is useless and that nobody loves her.

I will pray.

[WordPreacher]

I will pray.

Thanks and I posted it in the wrong place, because I was talking to her while I was in this thread.

[Praxeas]

She tried to commit suicide and she thinks that she is useless and that nobody loves her.
Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

[berkeley]

Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

I love you, big brother. :(

[Praxeas]

I love you, big brother. :(
Thanks :-)

You know I really was gonna visit up there but we have so many things going on this month...I need to spend some time this week working on a worship study for a group and then I am photo-guy disignate for a wedding (doing a favor, Im not a pro) and the the next week after that we have a scheduled concert here.....

[berkeley]

Thanks :-)

You know I really was gonna visit up there but we have so many things going on this month...I need to spend some time this week working on a worship study for a group and then I am photo-guy disignate for a wedding (doing a favor, Im not a pro) and the the next week after that we have a scheduled concert here.....

My plans have been foiled. Partly my fault, maybe like 1/8 my fault. Ha.
Anyway, I may be leaving soon. :hmmm

[Praxeas]

My plans have been foiled. Partly my fault, maybe like 1/8 my fault. Ha.
Anyway, I may be leaving soon. :hmmm
PM me where to.....

[berkeley]

PM me where to.....

I'm on yahoo.

[Rico]

Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

Whoa whoa whoa! Hang on just a minute! You are not useless and we love you around here, Brother. Get all that nonsense out of your head right away. That's just a big fat lie, sent straight from the pits of Hell!

[justasaint]

Waiting for the upc to change won't happen in our lifetime.

Where in scripture do you have to get permission to start a work spreading the good news, awhhhh only in the sacred manual.

join the group that most represents your views and more importantly His views

[Praxeas]

Whoa whoa whoa! Hang on just a minute! You are not useless and we love you around here, Brother. Get all that nonsense out of your head right away. That's just a big fat lie, sent straight from the pits of Hell!Thank you brother :-)

[Trouvere]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

I say if the new org teaches the same doctrine and you can do what God has called you to then pray about it and if you feel peace do what God has called you to.If you keep a right spirit and right attitude you will be blessed.We did this when God called us to do a work.We were independant but joined a ministers fellowship.The local ALJC pastor allowed us to work out of his church and bring people so we could get started.God is good.Its about souls and the will of God.We actually helped a small home missions church that was UPC in the neigboring city do out reach and get revivals off the ground when we grew large enough.Its not about organizations but about Jesus.

[Felicity]

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

It's pretty hard to walk through a door that is shut. But if God opens the door, who can shut it?

[ILG]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

Only you can answer that question.

[Digging4Truth]

I think they would tolerate me, one of my questions is to them will be I still feel Acts 2:38 to be normative response to the Gospel, is there room in your big tents for me, I want to be accepted not simply tolerated?

There you go bro.

My response was going to be that you should join or not join this group on their own merits.

If they are someone you would have a "hankerin'" to join then, by all means, join up. If, had they not asked, they were not necessarily a group that you would have had a desire to join up with then keep looking because God's match for you is still out there.

I think in the post I quoted you have answered your own question.

And as far as the UPC thing... don't let it get under your skin (and I would expect that you would not allow that anyway).

Accept it as the answer (for now) so that you may live peaceably with these brethren. If there are underlying issues then God will cure them if that is His will. Until then that is the way to live peaceably with these brethren.

[Sheltiedad]

Just do your best... and don't worry about an affiliation... I know my opinion doesn't amount to much around here but I respect guys like you...

[Chan]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?Obey God.

[Whole Hearted]

I believe that they are not hard and fast and hold a broad view of salvation, most characterized by a liberal PCI view of salvation.

Then by all means leave them alone and stay ind..

[Theresa]

I'd say stay independant - after 7 years, if the doors haven't opened to join the UPC, then it wasnt meant to be..IMO. Perhaps there have to be changes within the district before you should bother joining.

I say any minister opposed to having more churchs to reach the lost has their priorities in the wrong place

and honestly, I wouldnt want to be part of the sectional politics

[WordPreacher]

Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

No, she has family around her all the time.

[Glenda B]

Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

Brother Prax,
I hope I am not out of line here Brother, but as I said I don’t visit this forum often. But in my browsing one time, I think I read somewhere that you were on dialysis? If I have my names mixed up, please forgive me.
I don’t know what you are going through, because I have never been where you are, but there’s a man in my church who is such an inspiration to me. He was on dialysis for over 20 years before the Drs. Found a match for him.
And by some miracle, when this kidney came available, he was not even next in line for the kidney, but whoever was on the waiting list, and next in line could not be reached. They called our Brother ______,
And guess what, he was a perfect match. Is that a miracle or what? He has had his new kidney several years now, and seems to be doing good. So God is so good to his children. Just trust Him, don’t get depressed Brother. Your miracle is on it’s way.

[Felicity]

Just do your best... and don't worry about an affiliation... I know my opinion doesn't amount to much around here but I respect guys like you... Brad.......

I truly wish you wouldn't say things like that. :)

[Neck]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

Keith my words are do not feel the strain of trying or wishing to be accepted. Find a place where you can work for the Lord and do great things.

Where ever that may be.....

[Sherri]

Our town is about the same size as yours, Keith, and there are probably 4 UPC churches here. I didn't know one pastor could keep another one out of town; I thought it came down to a mileage thing. Like only one church within so many miles. I've never heard of having just one UPC church in a town this size! Are there set rules about these things in the UPC manual?

Herrin, Illinois, close to where I grew up, was a really small town and had three UPC churches!

[Felicity]

Our town is about the same size as yours, Keith, and there are probably 4 UPC churches here. I didn't know one pastor could keep another one out of town; I thought it came down to a mileage thing. Like only one church within so many miles. I've never heard of having just one UPC church in a town this size! Are there set rules about these things in the UPC manual?

Herrin, Illinois, close to where I grew up, was a really small town and had three UPC churches!I agree with you Sherri.

I was talking with a UPC pastor wife friend from back home this morning and we were talking about this very thing. She agrees with me and with the points I made in another thread the other morning which I plan to follow back up on that the idea of disallowing more than one UP church in a city of any size is both ludicrous and preposterous.

In the city (about 50,000 population at the time) where my parents lived and where I spent my teen years there were 3 UP churches. Those churches fellowshipped and were healthy and thriving.

There is no way that one church can reach a whole city. It's impossible.

I believe there's a stipulation in the manual where a church can't be started within a 5 mile radius of another UP church, but there is no rule against there being more than one UPC in any particular city. Why another pastor or presbyter would want to prevent that from happening would depend on the situation I guess, but I don't understand why men who truly have a love and burden for lost souls would want to prevent more than one UP church in a city of any size at all. Or even in a smaller city for that matter.

Right now I know a pastor who has been in a city for some time and hasn't really been terribly successful in growing a work -- yet. (That "yet" is every important. :)) There's another pastor planning on moving into that city and starting a new church - not terribly far from where the pastor who is there presently is located. He's thrilled at the thought that someone else is moving in and at the potential that exists for a new church to be raised up -- and the possibility that this new guy might raise a church more quickly and more successfully than he's been able to do. To me this exemplifies a right attitude!!

Surely, there are different giftings and abilities. I recognize that. We all have our place. We're not all equally successful (taking into consideration the ways we "measure" success.) and that's okay. The main thing is that we're fulfilling the call God has placed on our lives and doing that to the best of whatever ability God has given a man or woman.

We've got Pentecostal churches all around us here and we need a whole bunch more. If someone else decides to move into this city and start another Oneness Pentecostal church nobody would be happier or more thrilled than us!!!

The main thing is ..... that souls are getting saved and freed from hell's clutch.

Good grief and dear Lord help us if that isn't the most important thing.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Maybe I should move to Canada , and start a work ,eh ?

[Felicity]

Maybe I should move to Canada , and start a work ,eh ?LOL. Okay okay, you're getting the hang of the "eh's" Scott. :thumbsup

My friend (I mentioned her earlier) and I were also talking this morning about the need in Canada for a move of God. And that's what it's going to take. A sovereign supernatural unprecedented powerful and long waited for move of God.

[Glenda B]

Brother Prax,
I hope I am not out of line here Brother, but as I said I don’t visit this forum often. But in my browsing one time, I think I read somewhere that you were on dialysis? If I have my names mixed up, please forgive me.
I don’t know what you are going through, because I have never been where you are, but there’s a man in my church who is such an inspiration to me. He was on dialysis for over 20 years before the Drs. Found a match for him.
And by some miracle, when this kidney came available, he was not even next in line for the kidney, but whoever was on the waiting list, and next in line could not be reached. They called our Brother ______,
And guess what, he was a perfect match. Is that a miracle or what? He has had his new kidney several years now, and seems to be doing good. So God is so good to his children. Just trust Him, don’t get depressed Brother. Your miracle is on it’s way.

* BUMP *

I had a message especially for Bro. Prax, and I think He missed it.

[Pastor Keith]

Just want to say thanks for some of the input that I have received here, I don't make decisons like this quickly, things are fine the way they are now, but I do look to broaden my horizons if the Lord should so lead.

[philjones]

Just want to say thanks for some of the input that I have received here, I don't make decisons like this quickly, things are fine the way they are now, but I do look to broaden my horizons if the Lord should so lead.

I covet your prayers as I continue to wrestle with this same issue!

["GL"]

Keith, now you've got me wondering where you are located. :hmmm
I have a little experience in this area.

PM me if you wish...

[philjones]

I covet your prayers as I continue to wrestle with this same issue!

Let me clarify that I wrestle with the issue of making a decision to go with a group other than the UPCI that may not be as strong on the doctrine as I am...

At present, I am not building an independent church in a city of 70K that has only one UPCI affiliated assembly.

That said, I do have a burden for my home town which is a city of 90K that only has 1 UPCI affiliated assembly, 1 small ALJC assembly and an independent ethnic work that is oneness. I can assure you that if I were in the UPCI and I wanted to build a second church there i would be forbidden!

So I may one day fit all the criteria but for now I am just wrestling with the desire to belong to a fellowship that provides covering and that, unfortunately, cannot be the UPCI.

[freeatlast]

Good grief 70,000 people in the city you refer to and the UPC thinks one church is sufficieent??

This one UPC church is going to reach and minister to effectivley the 70,000??

This mentality is short sighted, selfish...and i better stop here Keith.

[Esther]

I live exactly 5 miles from 3 UPC churches.

Go figure??????

[ChTatum]

What would I do in your place? Move.

[Revelationist]

If the UPC won't let you in, won't fellowship, eventually you'll find that their not a friend either. Stay independent and you don't have to worry about politics...

Jerry Moon

[Coonskinner]

If the UPC won't let you in, won't fellowship, eventually you'll find that their not a friend either. Stay independent and you don't have to worry about politics...

Jerry Moon

Brother,

Being independent in no way frees you from politics.

You have NEVER been disfellowshipped until you have been disfellowshipped by a bunch of independents.:)

[Steve Epley]

Brother,

Being independent in no way frees you from politics.

You have NEVER been disfellowshipped until you have been disfellowshipped by a bunch of independents.:)

Ain't that the truth.

[Felicity]

We could use at least 5 more UPC churches here where I'm living right now considering the population and considering that the one or two that are here are very small.

[The Closer]

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

A competing church, is that his statement or yours?

[Felicity]

Men are called of God to certain areas but not all called men are equal. Some have greater giftings, anointing, and leadership ability.

If a church of 25,000 has a UP church running 50 and it's been running 50 for 30 years then why on earth and how on earth could someone justify denying another man who feels called to that location the opportunity to open a new work?

It's just ridiculous, and unless the man who is wanting to go has got major problem that would justify the presbyter or DS saying "No, we don't feel that this is the will of God brother", then to me it's a travesty to deny a man the opportunity to fulfill the call of God on his life.