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View Full Version : What supersedes the calling(s) of God?


Lost
06-14-2007, 05:13 PM
This thread was inspired from a comment keith4him recently made.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=4944

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church. Our city has 70,000 people in it. ...

Through the years, I have heard of other similiar situations.Are these happenings more common outside of the UPC?

When does the decision of a presbyter, UPC or not, superceed that of a God-given calling? Could God still honor
and bless that calling if it resulted in the disobedience to authority, assuming that the called was under that authority?

Praxeas
06-14-2007, 05:42 PM
This thread was inspired from a comment keith4him recently made.


Through the years, I have heard of other similiar situations.Are these happenings more common outside of the UPC?

When does the decision of a presbyter, UPC or not, superceed that of a God-given calling? Could God still honor
and bless that calling if it resulted in the disobedience to authority, assuming that the called was under that authority?
I don't know how common it is, but I know there are 4 AOGs in my city...two I think are hispanic congregations, plus one in a smaller city nearby that has no UPC in it at all. City that is larger nearby also has at least 2 that I know of.

JWs have several kingdom Halls. In fact I think they have some sort of organizational rule that when a congregation reaches 200 they start another church....

As I said in the other thread...perhaps there is too much autonomy in the UPC

ManOfWord
06-14-2007, 05:47 PM
Your question is, "What supersedes the calling of God?"

The answer is NOTHING!!! Men try, but they will not get a "pass" for taking God's place.

WordPreacher
06-14-2007, 07:02 PM
Your question is, "What supersedes the calling of God?"

The answer is NOTHING!!! Men try, but they will not get a "pass" for taking God's place.

Amen Bro!!!

Sam
06-14-2007, 07:53 PM
I don't understand UPC politics so this question may seem ignorant.

What if the person spoken of in this thread just went ahead and started another church on the other side of town? What would happen? Would he be called in before the district board and rebuked? Would he be told to stop trying to start another church or lose his license? Would other churches in that area be told that they could not fellowship the "new" church? Would members of local UPC churches in that area or state be warned that this new work was not of God and they should not go or visit there? Would there be legal action taken by the organization in the local secular court system, like an injunction against the new work, and maybe a cease and desist order obtained from the local civil authorities?

Newman
06-14-2007, 08:56 PM
This thread was inspired from a comment keith4him recently made.


Through the years, I have heard of other similiar situations.Are these happenings more common outside of the UPC?

When does the decision of a presbyter, UPC or not, superceed that of a God-given calling? Could God still honor
and bless that calling if it resulted in the disobedience to authority, assuming that the called was under that authority?

Sorry but I am not buying what is being sold. Of course nothing supercedes God's calling but I doubt very much that God cares what label is on the outside of His church.

Consequently, I don't see why the UPC should agree to have another UPC church in a city of 70,000 when:

1- It makes it that much harder for the UPC church already in existence to ever achieve economy of scale (more bang for the buck because of larger number of people in attendance).

2- There are plenty of other areas to fish if one wants to use the exact same label as the nearby church.

This is NO WAY means that another Apostolic church can't be in the area. But it is a disservice to the pastor who has already put his heart into the work that is there to have the same label church around the corner. Makes no real sense at all; spiritually-wise, business-wise, or else-wise. :cool:

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 08:23 AM
Sorry but I am not buying what is being sold. Of course nothing supercedes God's calling but I doubt very much that God cares what label is on the outside of His church.

Consequently, I don't see why the UPC should agree to have another UPC church in a city of 70,000 when:

1- It makes it that much harder for the UPC church already in existence to ever achieve economy of scale (more bang for the buck because of larger number of people in attendance).

2- There are plenty of other areas to fish if one wants to use the exact same label as the nearby church.

This is NO WAY means that another Apostolic church can't be in the area. But it is a disservice to the pastor who has already put his heart into the work that is there to have the same label church around the corner. Makes no real sense at all; spiritually-wise, business-wise, or else-wise. :cool:


What if the first church has shown no significant growth? Are you still suggesting that the city only needs one Pentecostal church?

Sheltiedad
06-15-2007, 08:35 AM
If a minister feels called of God to start a church in a certain area... and the organization is just a "ministerial fellowship" and not a spiritual leadership... then what right, spiritually, would the organization have in legislating what a minister does when he feels he is called there?

This is the problem when everyone claims they are getting their marching orders directly from God... what do you do when those orders compete or conflict? lol.

Chan
06-15-2007, 08:38 AM
This thread was inspired from a comment keith4him recently made.


Through the years, I have heard of other similiar situations.Are these happenings more common outside of the UPC?

When does the decision of a presbyter, UPC or not, superceed that of a God-given calling? Could God still honor
and bless that calling if it resulted in the disobedience to authority, assuming that the called was under that authority?God's calling always takes precedence and if a particular presbyter or minister doesn't like it, he can take it up with God!

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 08:45 AM
Does everyone remember when David was anointed king of Israel, all while Saul maintained control of the kingship for years until he eventually died in battle? David had been anointed, or "called" to that role, yet he was delayed until God changed the circumstances.... During the entire duration, David honored Saul, the very man that was stopping him from claiming the kingship and fulfilling his "calling"....

What say ye? Does this example apply to this question?

Sheltiedad
06-15-2007, 08:50 AM
Does everyone remember when David was anointed king of Israel, all while Saul maintained control of the kingship for years until he eventually died in battle? David had been anointed, or "called" to that role, yet he was delayed until God changed the circumstances.... During the entire duration, David honored Saul, the very man that was stopping him from claiming the kingship and fulfilling his "calling"....

What say ye? Does this example apply to this question?

I think it applies somewhat... it is just compounded by the fact that instead of just a couple of annointed people, there are thousands... too many chiefs...

Chan
06-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Does everyone remember when David was anointed king of Israel, all while Saul maintained control of the kingship for years until he eventually died in battle? David had been anointed, or "called" to that role, yet he was delayed until God changed the circumstances.... During the entire duration, David honored Saul, the very man that was stopping him from claiming the kingship and fulfilling his "calling"....

What say ye? Does this example apply to this question?No, because if God had wanted to set David on the throne immediately he would have done so.

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:07 AM
What if the first church has shown no significant growth? Are you still suggesting that the city only needs one Pentecostal church?

I am only suggesting that a city is best served by one UPC church and not limiting other Apostolic Churches at all. I don't believe a UPC label needs to be on an Apostolic Church to reach the lost.

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 09:26 AM
I am only suggesting that a city is best served by one UPC church and not limiting other Apostolic Churches at all. I don't believe a UPC label needs to be on an Apostolic Church to reach the lost.

How can you suggest that a church, reaching less than a fraction of 1% of it's city population should have the "UPC" monopoly on that city.... maybe if they are reaching more than 1% of it's city or a mega-church of over 1,000....

I am shocked that one would be bold enough to publically state this....

Chester Do Wright
06-15-2007, 09:28 AM
I am only suggesting that a city is best served by one UPC church and not limiting other Apostolic Churches at all. I don't believe a UPC label needs to be on an Apostolic Church to reach the lost.


Sis Newman
I strongly disagree with you on this. You might as well be saying there should only be one grocery store, one gas station, and one McDonald's in each city with a population of 70,000. The fact is, I can understand one church setting itself up in the center of the city, and starting daughter works all around the perimeters. But to say that there should just be one is just not business-wise, spiritual-wise, or else-wise.

Chan
06-15-2007, 09:32 AM
How can you suggest that a church, reaching less than a fraction of 1% of it's city population should have the "UPC" monopoly on that city.... maybe if they are reaching more than 1% of it's city or a mega-church of over 1,000....

I am shocked that one would be bold enough to publically state this....I think that once a church grows to about 500 members it should split off and start another church. Considering that most church growth in America today is occurring because people are church hopping, I think the real issue that needs to be addressed is why churches (and I'm not just talking about UPC or Apostolic churches) aren't making very many new disciples for Jesus.

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:34 AM
Wait!!! Why does there have to be 2 Walmarts in the same city of 70,000? Why not a Target, Kmart, or other store?

I am not suggesting that retail stores or Apostolic Churches be limited. I am only suggesting that particular labels should be spread out instead of creating potential conflicts in relatively small areas given the great need in other areas.

Felicity
06-15-2007, 09:38 AM
I think the idea that there can't be 2 UPC churches in a city of 70,000 or even 50,000 or less is preposterous.

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 09:39 AM
Wait!!! Why does there have to be 2 Walmarts in the same city of 70,000? Why not a Target, Kmart, or other store?

I am not suggesting that retail stores or Apostolic Churches be limited. I am only suggesting that particular labels should be spread out instead of creating potential conflicts in relatively small areas given the great need in other areas.

this entire thread with written with the understanding that God placed a burden on the 2nd man for that same city.... and that the calling on the 2nd man is just as legit.... your observations are leading us off-topic....

from the perspective of coverage, i do agree that the UPC still has dead-zones without truth-preaching churches.... and still needs many new people in new harvest fields....

Chan
06-15-2007, 09:40 AM
this entire thread with written with the understanding that God placed a burden on the 2nd man for that same city.... and that the calling on the 2nd man is just as legit.... your observations are leading us off-topic....

from the perspective of coverage, i do agree that the UPC still has dead-zones without truth-preaching churches.... and still needs many new people in new harvest fields....People seem to be forgetting that part.

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 09:45 AM
Wait!!! Why does there have to be 2 Walmarts in the same city of 70,000? Why not a Target, Kmart, or other store?

I am not suggesting that retail stores or Apostolic Churches be limited. I am only suggesting that particular labels should be spread out instead of creating potential conflicts in relatively small areas given the great need in other areas.

i'm not suggesting that there can't be "other" Apostolic churches.... I'm asking why can't they're be a 2nd UPC church.... why should the 2nd man have to ponder starting his church with an "independant" non-UPC church name to avoid stepping on the 1st pastor's toes.... both theoretically preach the same message; why is a "territorial" spirit at a district level allowed to hinder/stop others from reaping in the same harvest field? if they are both UPC, the concern of "sheep-stealing" would be addressed by the district anyhow....

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:47 AM
I think the idea that there can't be 2 UPC churches in a city of 70,000 or even 50,000 or less is preposterous.

Show me where this currently is done and tell me about the relationship between the two churches and the perception of the community. :cool:

Lost
06-15-2007, 09:49 AM
Your question is, "What supersedes the calling of God?"

The answer is NOTHING!!! Men try, but they will not get a "pass" for taking God's place.

10 points to ManOfWord; I do believe you are correct. :poloroid

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:50 AM
i'm not suggesting that there can't be "other" Apostolic churches.... I'm asking why can't they're be a 2nd UPC church.... why should the 2nd man have to ponder starting his church with an "independant" non-UPC church name to avoid stepping on the 1st pastor's toes.... both theoretically preach the same message; why is a "territorial" spirit at a district level allowed to hinder/stop others from reaping in the same harvest field? if they are both UPC, the concern of "sheep-stealing" would be addressed by the district anyhow....

Pragmatic question... Can you show me now where this is successfully done without creating tension between the two churches and the community?

Felicity
06-15-2007, 09:50 AM
I guess that the decision of men who have been called and ordained by God to leadership positions, to sit on General boards, district boards and give leadership to pastors in their jurisdiction don't know what they're doing and are way off base to allow more than one UP church in a city.

I doubt that most people in a large city scarcely notice that there are 2 of one kind of church in a city. And why would they even care?

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:54 AM
I guess that the decision of men who have been called and ordained by God to leadership positions, to sit on General boards, district boards and give leadership to pastors in their jurisdiction don't know what they're doing and are way off base to allow more than one UP church in a city.

I doubt that most people in a large city scarcely notice that there are 2 of one kind of church in a city. And why would they even care?

Felicity- I am agreeing with the decision of the UPC organization not to allow a second UPC church in a community of 77,000. So how can you reframe the issue as if I know more than those God ordained to leadership positions?

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 09:56 AM
Pragmatic question... Can you show me now where this is successfully done without creating tension between the two churches and the community?

ummmmm, in my hometown there are two UPC churches both running over 300 (one approaching 350, the other over 400).... both are respected in the community and been featured by local media on numerous occasions.... there have been a few "rough edges" through the years, but for the most part, both pastorial teams/churches are friendly towards each other....

I would be foolish to believe that it's like that everywhere, but it can work....

Sheltiedad
06-15-2007, 09:58 AM
We have what is claimed to be a ministerial fellowship without any spiritual authority (this statement has been made by MANY UPC preachers on this forum) making decisions which do influence the spiritual... what a conundrum :)

Newman
06-15-2007, 09:59 AM
ummmmm, in my hometown there are two UPC churches both running over 300 (one approaching 350, the other over 400).... both are respected in the community and been featured by local media on numerous occasions.... there have been a few "rough edges" through the years, but for the most part, both pastorial teams/churches are friendly towards each other....

I would be foolish to believe that it's like that everywhere, but it can work....

Same exact city? Well then, a man with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an argument. Carry on! :cool:

Felicity
06-15-2007, 09:59 AM
Many cities have more than one UP church and it is ordained and permitted by the leadership over a district.

The rule used to be no more than one UP church within a 5 mile radius or something like that I think. Not sure if that's changed or not.

I have to go - run out of time.

I stand by my opinion and the opinion and wisdom of many men of God who allow for more than one UP church in one city or even smaller kind of community.

After all, we care about souls, right? That's the most important thing. One church is never going to reach all the people of any town or village or city. Two can even work together in harmony. It IS possible.

That depends a lot on the kind of mentality and attitude on the part of men of course.

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 10:02 AM
Same exact city? Well then, a man with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an experience. Carry on! :cool:

Church addresses in the same city (about 80,000 give or take), perhaps the overall outreach focuses are in opposite directions or different areas....

Felicity
06-15-2007, 10:05 AM
I doubt that most people in a large city scarcely notice that there are 2 of one kind of church in a city. And why would they even care? bump

Newman
06-15-2007, 10:08 AM
bump

There is no reason to care if the churches aren't hostile to each other. Of course, you probably don't know anything about that kind of thing happening... :lol

originalsecretplace
06-15-2007, 10:12 AM
There is no reason to care if the churches aren't hostile to each other. Of course, you probably don't know anything about that kind of thing happening... :lol

If I were looking for a church one of the things I would look for is how the leadership gets along with other leaders INSIDE their own circles -- especially one congregation with another. If a church can't get along with the people within it's own denomination then there's something lacking in the fruit department.

Malvaro
06-15-2007, 10:28 AM
If I were looking for a church one of the things I would look for is how the leadership gets along with other leaders INSIDE their own circles -- especially one congregation with another. If a church can't get along with the people within it's own denomination then there's something lacking in the fruit department.

unfortunately, the answer you would mostly likely get is "we get along fine".... its really tough to accurately gauge that aspect unless you become apart of the church and find out for yourself.... or know local ministries that could vouch for the church ahead of time....

Felicity
06-15-2007, 10:28 AM
There is no reason to care if the churches aren't hostile to each other. Of course, you probably don't know anything about that kind of thing happening... :lolYes, I do as a matter of fact.

I also know of a city much smaller than yours that has several UP churches and several other Oneness type of churches as well. There have been problems over the years and yet there is no doubt but what the largest number of Christians in that city (percentage-wise) are most likely Oneness Pentecostals when you combine them all together. And the work of God goes FORWARD.

Newman
06-15-2007, 10:34 AM
Yes, I do as a matter of fact.

I also know of a city much smaller than yours that has several UP churches and several other Oneness type of churches as well. There have been problems over the years and yet there is no doubt but what the largest number of Christians in that city (percentage-wise) are most likely Oneness Pentecostals when you combine them all together. And the work of God goes FORWARD.

I was thinking of all the stories we have on the forum where neighboring churches aren't talking to each other. But you probably realized that. :cool:

Theresa
06-15-2007, 10:37 AM
Wait!!! Why does there have to be 2 Walmarts in the same city of 70,000? Why not a Target, Kmart, or other store?

I am not suggesting that retail stores or Apostolic Churches be limited. I am only suggesting that particular labels should be spread out instead of creating potential conflicts in relatively small areas given the great need in other areas.

no one mentions walgreens???



We have then ACROSS the STREET from each other....

originalsecretplace
06-15-2007, 10:42 AM
unfortunately, the answer you would mostly likely get is "we get along fine".... its really tough to accurately gauge that aspect unless you become apart of the church and find out for yourself.... or know local ministries that could vouch for the church ahead of time....

Yes. You would absolutley have to become somewhat involved and see for yourself what the attitude is.

originalsecretplace
06-15-2007, 10:43 AM
no one mentions walgreens???



We have then ACROSS the STREET from each other....

Same as Tim Horton's. :)