Do Christians Sin After Salvation?

[deacon blues]

Do they? Or do they reach sinless perfection right away or soon thereafter?

[Truthseeker]

Sinless perfection in Christ, prefected forever. Fruit of it in our lives is a process.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Perfection as in complete?

The Bible says yes as long as we are in Christ.

Perfection as in some unrealistic or false pretense of infallibility?

Not Biblically possible.

Even if we were somehow to be so holy as to not do a single sin for 20 or 20 years, Biblically speaking, we are still in the flesh, capable of sinning, and COMMANDED to confess our sins.

Blameless does not mean sinless.

[n david]

Do they? Yes, since salvation doesn't remove the fleshly ability to sin.

[mfblume]

this verse shows we can sin after salvation. Paul was taking to Christians .

1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Who said that anyone hasn't the ability to sin? DB you started a strawman thread. :lol

[deacon blues]

this verse shows we can sin after salvation. Paul was taking to Christians .

1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Watch out! You're probably hiding some gross sin. Buckle up you're about to get excoriated.

[houston]

Who said that anyone hasn't the ability to sin? DB you started a strawman thread. :lol

Right. :highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

Every Christian is expected to overcome sin very soon after salvation.

[good samaritan]

There are sins that are done presumptuously and those that are done negligently. Christians must seek God's deliverance from spiritual strongholds in their life, but their flesh is going to always give occasion to sin. We must have many alters in our lives. If I was to tell a new convert that they could never mess up again after their conversion, they would think I was crazy. We can overcome sin through the Spirit of God, but we will never be perfect while we are in this earthly body.

[deacon blues]

There are sins that are done presumptuously and those that are done negligently. Christians must seek God's deliverance from spiritual strongholds in their life, but their flesh is going to always give occasion to sin. We must have many alters in our lives. If I was to tell a new convert that they could never mess up again after their conversion, they would think I was crazy. We can overcome sin through the Spirit of God, but we will never be perfect while we are in this earthly body.

Agreed.

[thephnxman]

Watch out! You're probably hiding some gross sin. Buckle up you're about to get excoriated.

Perhaps the question should have been:
"...as we are being perfected"?

[Michael The Disciple]

There are sins that are done presumptuously and those that are done negligently. Christians must seek God's deliverance from spiritual strongholds in their life, but their flesh is going to always give occasion to sin. We must have many alters in our lives. If I was to tell a new convert that they could never mess up again after their conversion, they would think I was crazy. We can overcome sin through the Spirit of God, but we will never be perfect while we are in this earthly body.

God sees it much different. Note the force with which Paul presents the idea that we cannot continue to sin.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:2

He leaves us with the teaching not only we must cease from sin but puts the timing from our baptism.

Can a Christian continue to sin? Well yes HOWEVER if he does he should not expect to enter the Kingdom.

[Evang.Benincasa]

God sees it much different. Note the force with which Paul presents the idea that we cannot continue to sin.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:2

He leaves us with the teaching not only we must cease from sin but puts the timing from our baptism.

Can a Christian continue to sin? Well yes HOWEVER if he does he should not expect to enter the Kingdom.

Excellent :thumbsup

[good samaritan]

God sees it much different. Note the force with which Paul presents the idea that we cannot continue to sin.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:2

He leaves us with the teaching not only we must cease from sin but puts the timing from our baptism.

Can a Christian continue to sin? Well yes HOWEVER if he does he should not expect to enter the Kingdom.

Paul was refuting an ideology in Romans. Just as some Jews would take advantage of the sacrificial system for their transgressions, Paul knew some Christians would try to take advantage of the message of grace. Note the KJV says, "shall we continue in sin" and not shall we continue to sin. Before we come to God we have a lifestyle of sin. Many of us even toted around the label liar, thief murder, adulterer, etc.

We received deliverance from sins strongholds at Spirit baptism, but it still requires alters in our life of repentance. Allowing sin in our live brings imprisonment. If a child of God allows sin again into his life he allows the entanglement of sin he had once been delivered from. The later end of that man will be worse than he was at the first.

Lk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there:and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

I have seen many witnesses destroyed by the sinless life doctrine. Pentecostals I have personally been around in my youth have been labeled hypocrites. Their strong legal stance against sin later becomes condemnation to their own selves when they themselves have some fault come to light. Of course we are not to continue in sin, but that does not mean that we are above it.

As far as expecting to enter the kingdom, as Mike Blume teaches often, If you are a Christian you have already entered the kingdom of God. If by kingdom you are meaning heaven then we should not expect, but hope to enter. To expect something denotes entitlement. We are not entitled to anything, but that is where God's grace works.

Our salvation relies more on the inward work of God on the heart then just do's and don'ts. Sin is just the breaking of the law. Jesus teaches us to hang all the law and prophets on two commandments love God and love man. Therefore, we should see that God views the condition of our heart toward himself and our fellow humanity.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I am not suggesting that we can willfully sin and be held guiltless. I am saying when we fall we are to get back up. Don't every give up. I am an earthly father and my children do things to let me down sometimes, but I don't cast them off. I discipline them and send them on to do better. God is a far better and more loving Father than myself.

God's grace will not be taken advantage of, although it is limitless.

[votivesoul]

As far as expecting to enter the kingdom, as Mike Blume teaches often, If you are a Christian you have already entered the kingdom of God. If by kingdom you are meaning heaven then we should not expect, but hope to enter. To expect something denotes entitlement. We are not entitled to anything, but that is where God's grace works.

Expectation is not entitlement. Expectation is a realization that what God promised, He will do.

If His promise is eternal life, based on a certain set of criteria, if, when we meet those criteria, we don't receive eternal life, then God has lied to us.

We are co-heirs with Christ. Just as Christ had a hope to receive resurrection from the dead and an eternal place at the right hand of the Father, so, too, should we, who are adopted sons of God, have the same hope. This is expectation, and guess what?

We are entitled to it by the very promises of God!

If God doesn't give to us the very things He says we are entitled to, then our faith in Him is useless.

[Michael The Disciple]

And Christ would be just talking in vain if he did not EXPECT us to become like HIM.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Luke 6:40

It stuns me when I see Apostolics who would slug it out to the end of time telling us if we miss one part of Acts 2:38 we are simply lost....no exceptions, if, ands, our but's.

But then when it comes to the MANY things Jesus and the Apostles taught about being perfect or sinless they balk. Then they say he could not have meant what he clearly seemed to be saying.

Jesus never said we CANNOT cease from sin. Only false teachers and doctrines of demons give us that message.

Apostolic doctrine:

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:1-2

The disciple who takes up the cross and denies self (by the Spirit) ceases from sin. Simple.

The Apostle addresses false teaching and its fruit among the saints.

Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin: 2 Peter 2:13-14

Saints are to cease from sin.

If truth were being taught today multitudes would cease from sin. Instead they are taught EVEN AFTER the new creation experience they STILL....ARE SLAVES TO SIN. Its something they can never be free from.

Sadly this is NORMAL doctrine these days. Its infected almost EVERY CHURCH and ministry circle.

[Evang.Benincasa]

And Christ would be just talking in vain if he did not EXPECT us to become like HIM.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Luke 6:40

It stuns me when I see Apostolics who would slug it out to the end of time telling us if we miss one part of Acts 2:38 we are simply lost....no exceptions, if, ands, our but's.

But then when it comes to the MANY things Jesus and the Apostles taught about being perfect or sinless they balk. Then they say he could not have meant what he clearly seemed to be saying.

Jesus never said we CANNOT cease from sin. Only false teachers and doctrines of demons give us that message.

Apostolic doctrine:

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:1-2

The disciple who takes up the cross and denies self (by the Spirit) ceases from sin. Simple.

The Apostle addresses false teaching and its fruit among the saints.

Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin: 2 Peter 2:13-14

Saints are to cease from sin.

If truth were being taught today multitudes would cease from sin. Instead they are taught EVEN AFTER the new creation experience they STILL....ARE SLAVES TO SIN. Its something they can never be free from.

Sadly this is NORMAL doctrine these days. Its infected almost EVERY CHURCH and ministry circle.

:highfive

[Esaias]

I think part of the problem is twofold.

1. Sinners are not being led to feel God's abhorrence of sin. Therefore their repentance is often limited or superficial. "A repentant lifestyle" is often believed to mean "WHEN I sin I will repent, again and again, each time I sin" rather than a lifestyle of maintaining that original repentance as an ongoing attitude.

2. Christ's power to deliver and save from sin is not emphasized enough or as thoroughly as it ought to be. We are to CONTINUOUSLY present ourselves as a whole burnt offering to God, a continuous ongoing total consecration to Him, and HE sends the fire to sanctify and consume our offering. He is the one who perfects us, but we must yield to his sanctifying power and grace.

And that yielding must be ongoing and steadfast.

[Michael The Disciple]

I think part of the problem is twofold.

1. Sinners are not being led to feel God's abhorrence of sin. Therefore their repentance is often limited or superficial. "A repentant lifestyle" is often believed to mean "WHEN I sin I will repent, again and again, each time I sin" rather than a lifestyle of maintaining that original repentance as an ongoing attitude.

2. Christ's power to deliver and save from sin is not emphasized enough or as thoroughly as it ought to be. We are to CONTINUOUSLY present ourselves as a whole burnt offering to God, a continuous ongoing total consecration to Him, and HE sends the fire to sanctify and consume our offering. He is the one who perfects us, but we must yield to his sanctifying power and grace.

And that yielding must be ongoing and steadfast.

AMEN

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think part of the problem is twofold.

1. Sinners are not being led to feel God's abhorrence of sin. Therefore their repentance is often limited or superficial. "A repentant lifestyle" is often believed to mean "WHEN I sin I will repent, again and again, each time I sin" rather than a lifestyle of maintaining that original repentance as an ongoing attitude.

2. Christ's power to deliver and save from sin is not emphasized enough or as thoroughly as it ought to be. We are to CONTINUOUSLY present ourselves as a whole burnt offering to God, a continuous ongoing total consecration to Him, and HE sends the fire to sanctify and consume our offering. He is the one who perfects us, but we must yield to his sanctifying power and grace.

And that yielding must be ongoing and steadfast.

:thumbsup

[good samaritan]

Just want to be clear. I am not advocating sin. Every time a person lies, breaks a commitment, speaks evil dignities, or does anything contrary to faith it is a sin. I just want to say I sometimes fall short. I don't mean that as an excuse, but Lord have mercy. I have the Holy Ghost and if I am error it don't take me long to know it. Maybe we are saying the same thing from a different point of view. If sin never surfaces in any way in your life how does the Holy Ghost convict you?

If there is nothing wrong why have conviction? Why does the Bible speak of a Father chastening a son in relation to God and his children? If they never make wrong decisions why chastisement necessary.

Of course I don't advocate sin. We should flee temptation, shun evil, abhor sin, etc...., and all that stuff. I would be careful of this doctrine of pre-resurrection perfection. I have known some wonderful men of God in my life, but none without faults.

Faults=Sins

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Just want to be clear. I am not advocating sin. Every time a person lies, breaks a commitment, speaks evil dignities, or does anything contrary to faith it is a sin. I just want to say I sometimes fall short. I don't mean that as an excuse, but Lord have mercy. I have the Holy Ghost and if I am error it don't take me long to know it. Maybe we are saying the same thing from a different point of view. If sin never surfaces in any way in your life how does the Holy Ghost convict you?

If there is nothing wrong why have conviction? Why does the Bible speak of a Father chastening a son in relation to God and his children? If they never make wrong decisions why chastisement necessary.

Of course I don't advocate sin. We should flee temptation, shun evil, abhor sin, etc...., and all that stuff. I would be careful of this doctrine of pre-resurrection perfection. I have known some wonderful men of God in my life, but none without faults.

Faults=Sins

I understand everything you are trying to convey. But 1st John 3 pretty much nails it all down nicely. Whether you or I, or the butcher, baker, and the candle stick maker can't get it on the go. Then the Bible is right and somebody is wrong. No one's behavior is a measure for the scripture. The scripture says what it says. Whether we like it or not.

1 John 3:7-9

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness IS righteous, even as HE is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Just want to be clear. I am not advocating sin.

I totally understand where you are coming from. :thumbsup

[mfblume]

The poll options are skewed. The fact is we can live without sinning ONLY SO LONG AS WE walk after the Spirit. As soon as we cease that walk, we can and will sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The poll options are skewed. The fact is we can live without sinning ONLY SO LONG AS WE walk after the Spirit. As soon as we cease that walk, we can and will sin.

:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

Blameless
ἄμεμπτος amemptoi (Adj-NMP)
Blameless, free from fault or defect. Irreproachable.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

[corvet786c]

I have a different take on it Yes we do sin. In Romans 6 paul is not talking about acts or works of sin, but the body of sin or the sinful nature that resides in us all. To be control by that is where the problem lies. The entire context refers to the body of sin has been destroyed when we have been baptized in Jesus name and our faith is made righteous with him. So we should always confess our sins, but to know that the body of sin has been destroyed.

If you notice in the previous chapter where he mentions that sin brought forth death, being the law of sin(not works of sin)and Grace brings forth righteousness by walking in the spirit.

[houston]

I understand everything you are trying to convey. But 1st John 3 pretty much nails it all down nicely. Whether you or I, or the butcher, baker, and the candle stick maker can't get it on the go. Then the Bible is right and somebody is wrong. No one's behavior is a measure for the scripture. The scripture says what it says. Whether we like it or not.

1 John 3:7-9

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness IS righteous, even as HE is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.
A better translation...



1 John 3:7-9 (ESV)

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

A better translation...



1 John 3:7-9 (ESV)

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Excellent! :thumbsup

[good samaritan]

I understand everything you are trying to convey. But 1st John 3 pretty much nails it all down nicely. Whether you or I, or the butcher, baker, and the candle stick maker can't get it on the go. Then the Bible is right and somebody is wrong. No one's behavior is a measure for the scripture. The scripture says what it says. Whether we like it or not.

1 John 3:7-9

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness IS righteous, even as HE is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.

Who are we to judge another man's servant? Personally I believe that so long as someone is repentant, sin will be forgiven (regardless of before or after conversion). The question is about being repentant. Is someone truly repentant if they continually make the same mistakes over? My assumptions are no, but it is God who decides.

There is no way for us to judge the inward working of God in another person. We can only judge a person's outward fruit. Salvation is personal and between us and God alone. Only God can see if true repentance occurs within the heart. We can only judge the fruit, but God will be our only judge. I am thankful that our eternity is in the hand of a righteous God who makes no mistakes.

Earthly judges depend on witness reports, personal intuition, jury opinion, etc... When we stand before God, He will make no mistakes. He was there all along. That should be a fearful thing to all believers. I adhere to the Acts 2:38 doctrine, but I am not a 3 stepper. It is my interpretation that our salvation is future and not past. We all may say that we are saved, but until that day comes all we have is hope and hope maketh not ashamed.

Does sin arise in a Christian's life I believe it some times does, but how do we deal with it. Do we ignore it, justify it, hide it, etc...? We should confess our faults to a God who is faithful and just to forgive us. As Jesus commanded the lady caught in adultery, "neither do I condemn the go and sin no more."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Who are we to judge another man's servant? Personally I believe that so long as someone is repentant, sin will be forgiven (regardless of before or after conversion). The question is about being repentant. Is someone truly repentant if they continually make the same mistakes over? My assumptions are no, but it is God who decides.

There is no way for us to judge the inward working of God in another person. We can only judge a person's outward fruit. Salvation is personal and between us and God alone. Only God can see if true repentance occurs within the heart. We can only judge the fruit, but God will be our only judge. I am thankful that our eternity is in the hand of a righteous God who makes no mistakes.

Earthly judges depend on witness reports, personal intuition, jury opinion, etc... When we stand before God, He will make no mistakes. He was there all along. That should be a fearful thing to all believers. I adhere to the Acts 2:38 doctrine, but I am not a 3 stepper. It is my interpretation that our salvation is future and not past. We all may say that we are saved, but until that day comes all we have is hope and hope maketh not ashamed.

Does sin arise in a Christian's life I believe it some times does, but how do we deal with it. Do we ignore it, justify it, hide it, etc...? We should confess our faults to a God who is faithful and just to forgive us. As Jesus commanded the lady caught in adultery, "neither do I condemn the go and sin no more."

Matthew 7:5 tells you that you are able to remove the speck after you remove the beam. You can't be involved in sin and able to judge. The apostle in his epistles was judging situations. Also told a congregation to remove an individual who was actively involved in sin. When the scripture states judge not unless you be judged. It is pointing to your own life first. Jesus then goes on to say that you must clean your own sight in order to judge correctly. Jesus also said that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Therefore you will know the tree by its fruit. Again a statement made by Jesus telling His followers how to judge correctly. Therefore the offering I gave in 1st John 3 tells the reader who is of Jesus, and who is of the devil. The Apostle Paul stated that in 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 that the church was to be able to judge between brethren and not go before Judean or Roman magistrates. They were to take care of everything in house. If everyone was supposed to wait until a brother repented the individual who was having an intimate relations with his father's wife would of still remained in the congregation 1 Corinthians 5:1. Isn't that what was happening? Wasn't this illicit affair going on with no one judging the situation? Paul heard about it and wanted to remove the brother from the congregation 1 Corinthians 5:2. Here is the apostle already passing a judgement on a brother's sin 1 Corinthians 5:3. The apostle is telling the congregation that they should of handled this, and turned the brother over to Satan 1 Corinthians 5:5. The apostle then goes on to say that a little sin allowed in the congregation will eventually influence the entire congregation 1 Corinthians 5:6 .

[allstate1]

Mathew 18:22 should answer this question.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If we continue to read everything in context we find that someone lost

Matthew 18:34

Jesus, the apostles, and Paul weren't redefining what was already taught in the Hebrew Bible. But admonishing an extremely backslidden Judea to get back on the narrow path which led through a tight gate.