Question for conservatives and ultracons

[Timmy]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

[Hoovie]

This could be a great thread. I have some friends who are members of a "Pilgrim" church... they are always looking for new ways to shun the devil.

[SarahElizabeth]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

hmmmm....One can be a rich man to a poor man. That's all I'm saying.

[Sherri]

There always seems to be someone more liberal and more conservative than any given person. We all tend to think of ourselves as conservative. It all depends on your frame of reference.

[Timmy]

There always seems to be someone more liberal and more conservative than any given person. We all tend to think of ourselves as conservative. It all depends on your frame of reference.

Really? OK, then how 'bout ya answer the question? :search

[StillStanding]

I am the center! Anything to the left of me is too liberal, and anything to the right of me is too conservative! :)

[Lost]

Really? OK, then how 'bout ya answer the question? :search

Timmy, you'd better be careful. You might start a cripple fight. :club

Does AFF know that you have a SouthPark character as your avatar?

[Timmy]

Timmy, you'd better be careful. You might start a cripple fight. :club

Does AFF know that you have a SouthPark character as your avatar?

Some do! :lol

[Timmy]

I am the center! Anything to the left of me is too liberal, and anything to the right of me is too conservative! :)

Ya know, maybe everyone feels that they're at just the right spot. Does SE look to the right and think those folks are just ridiculous? :lol

[Emma Bontrager]

I am the epitome and great example of holiness. But I, even I, could probably be more holy.

None of you people around here is holy enough.

[Timmy]

I am the epitome and great example of holiness. But I, even I, could probably be more holy.

None of you people around here is holy enough.

That's for sure!

Hey, Emma, you should lend some wisdom to the "What women want" thread! That "ILG" is trying, but, well, you know. They need you over there. :sly

[Malvaro]

There's a story that is told about a wealthy lady who wanted to hire a new driver for her limousine. Four drivers applied for the job. The lady lived at the top of a long narrow road up the side of a mountain. There was a steep cliff at the side of the road. The lady took each driver, one at a time, to the side of the road and asked how skilful a driver he was. "Very skillful." said the first one. "How close to the edge of the cliff could you drive my car?" asked the lady. " I could safely drive your car to a foot away from the edge." said the first driver. The second driver reckoned he could safely drive within 6 inches of the edge. The third replied that he could easily drive, quite safely with the edge of the tires running along the very edge of the hundred foot drop.

Then the lady came to the last driver. " How close to the edge could you safely drive if I gave you the job?" she asked. "Ma’am," he answered, "If you took me on as your driver I would be very careful to stay as far away from the edge of that cliff as I could!" The last man got the job.


I guess I've never asked that question before.... I've just tried to stick on the "safe" side of things, even if it may be unnecessary to make heaven....

[Sheltiedad]

I identify with ILG here... I guess I am an absolutist and if I did not allow moderation to be my guide, I would think everything is wrong... if you are going to have legalistic standards and follow it through consistently all the way, you would end up being like the Amish (except without the wheel either)...

[Emma Bontrager]

That's for sure!

Hey, Emma, you should lend some wisdom to the "What women want" thread! That "ILG" is trying, but, well, you know. They need you over there. :sly

I am always more interesting than ILG. I will go over there and give my expert advice. :)

[Emma Bontrager]

I identify with ILG here... I guess I am an absolutist and if I did not allow moderation to be my guide, I would think everything is wrong... if you are going to have legalistic standards and follow it through consistently all the way, you would end up being like the Amish (except without the wheel either)...

Everything is NOT wrong. It's just that you have to follow the lead of the bishop and the ordunug and when people ask why you say "Because it's always been this way".

[Malvaro]

I identify with ILG here... I guess I am an absolutist and if I did not allow moderation to be my guide, I would think everything is wrong... if you are going to have legalistic standards and follow it through consistently all the way, you would end up being like the Amish (except without the wheel either)...

either that.... or a Pharisee, driven only by obedience to the Law....

[Sheltiedad]

either that.... or a Pharisee, driven only by obedience to the Law....

I'm just speaking for me personally... I would have to take the Amish route because it makes more logical sense (except even they are not consistent since they allow the wheel and other conveniences, they just choose their "cut-off" time of approved inventions differently.

[Timmy]

either that.... or a Pharisee, driven only by obedience to the Law....

Didn't the pharisees go further than God's law, in effect drawing a bigger than necessary circle around things? Kind of like your chauffeur?

[Malvaro]

Didn't the pharisees go further than God's law, in effect drawing a bigger than necessary circle around things? Kind of like your chauffeur?

Absolutely.... they "added" to the Law, by implementing their own interpretations until enough time had passed that their "interpretations" became considered equal to the Law....

There's where the classic "Biblical convictions vs personal convictions" comes into play.... my entire lifetime, I've always been blessed to sit under leadership that taught moderation, except JCM of course :D

[Sheltiedad]

Absolutely.... they "added" to the Law, by implementing their own interpretations until enough time had passed that their "interpretations" became considered equal to the Law....

There's where the classic "Biblical convictions vs personal convictions" comes into play.... my entire lifetime, I've always been blessed to sit under leadership that taught moderation, except JCM of course :D

I love this statement... especially the bolded part...

[Timmy]

I'm just speaking for me personally... I would have to take the Amish route because it makes more logical sense (except even they are not consistent since they allow the wheel and other conveniences, they just choose their "cut-off" time of approved inventions differently.

See, that's where it breaks down. It will never stop. For ladies, if a skirt 4" below the knee is good, isn't 6" better? Why not drag it on the floor? If TV is bad, why not throw out the computer, too? Some books are bad, so throw them all out! For guys, if clean-shaven is good, how often do you shave? What about the 5 o'clock shadow? Maybe a shave twice a day is safe enough. But maybe not!

This was kind of my motivation for the thread. If cons and ultracons think that going so far to right is good, wouldn't it be better to go even farther? Is there some point that is far enough? You can always inch your way along, forever, seems to me.

[Sheltiedad]

See, that's where it breaks down. It will never stop. For ladies, if a skirt 4" below the knee is good, isn't 6" better? Why not drag it on the floor? If TV is bad, why not throw out the computer, too? Some books are bad, so throw them all out! For guys, if clean-shaven is good, how often do you shave? What about the 5 o'clock shadow? Maybe a shave twice a day is safe enough. But maybe not!

This was kind of my motivation for the thread. If cons and ultracons think that going so far to right is good, wouldn't it be better to go even farther? Is there some point that is far enough? You can always inch your way along, forever, seems to me.

That's why moderation in ALL things is the only way I can reconcile any of this stuff...

[Timmy]

That's why moderation in ALL things is the only way I can reconcile any of this stuff...

Ah, but how much moderation is enough? :lol

[Sheltiedad]

Ah, but how much moderation is enough? :lol

And moderation will always be relative which is a dirty word in certain places. lol.

[Emma Bontrager]

I am moderate!! I think those burkhas are restrictive. That's why Islamics are not of God and we are.

[Malvaro]

I am moderate!! I think those burkhas are restrictive. That's why Islamics are not of God and we are.

I see a girl wearing a blue bonnet in your avatar, don't you think that is a bit liberal for the traditional black/white color selection???

[OP_Carl]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

Although you are asking the wrong question, your analogy of a spectrum is helpful.

Christians are (should be?) on a journey.

At the start of the journey, we are completely unaware of God, of our sinful nature, of His redemptive work, and our need for God.

As we make progress on our journey, we strive to learn more about God, draw closer to God, and more fully submit ourselves and our lives to God.

As we get a clearer glimpse of God's love, we should become less interested in worldly and fleshly things.

An UC pastor creates an environment in which he can be more aware than the average pastor of the spiritual condition of his saints. If a person struggles with submitting to a pastor, how much more so will they struggle with submitting to God?

Choosing to subject oneself to spiritual authority is biblical. Selectively tailoring our religion to suit our predilections is biblical too, but not in a good sense!

[Malvaro]

I see a girl wearing a blue bonnet in your avatar, don't you think that is a bit liberal for the traditional black/white color selection???

*bump* for Emma

[UltimateUltraConservative]

Interesting....:girlpopcorn

[Salt&Light]

See, that's where it breaks down. It will never stop. For ladies, if a skirt 4" below the knee is good, isn't 6" better? Why not drag it on the floor? If TV is bad, why not throw out the computer, too? Some books are bad, so throw them all out! For guys, if clean-shaven is good, how often do you shave? What about the 5 o'clock shadow? Maybe a shave twice a day is safe enough. But maybe not!

This was kind of my motivation for the thread. If cons and ultracons think that going so far to right is good, wouldn't it be better to go even farther? Is there some point that is far enough? You can always inch your way along, forever, seems to me.

It could also go the other way when you try that argument. How short is too short? How much hair can I trim off and be saved. How many curse words can be in a movie and I still watch it? Hmm... I believe it would be better to err on the right rather than to backslide on the slippery slope of sin. Sounds to me like arguments are trying to be made by those who are already doing things that are not right. Stick to the Word of God, and you will be able to make the right decisions. He will not leave you ignorent if your motives are truly desiring to please him, but if you want to make excuses for not following truth then go ahead and stay where you are. Personally I want him to change me each day. We are to strive toward perfection, and desire the mind of Christ. The problem, is that you are too carnal, and these things seem foolish to you.

[RevBuddy]

S&L,

Can you get any more judgmental?? :beatdeadhorse I thought not, but I was sooooooooooooooooo wrong...

ULTRACON = PHARISEE (the ultimate equation of spiritual physics!)

Almost as good as E = MC2.

Wherein, E = evangelism
M = moderation, and
C2 = Conservativism to the 2nd power.

In this unique relationship, the greater the C2 influence, the greater the probability that Evangelism will approach zero. It is an amazing mathematical Truth! :tiphat

[Timmy]

It could also go the other way when you try that argument. How short is too short? How much hair can I trim off and be saved. How many curse words can be in a movie and I still watch it? Hmm... I believe it would be better to err on the right rather than to backslide on the slippery slope of sin. Sounds to me like arguments are trying to be made by those who are already doing things that are not right. Stick to the Word of God, and you will be able to make the right decisions. He will not leave you ignorent if your motives are truly desiring to please him, but if you want to make excuses for not following truth then go ahead and stay where you are. Personally I want him to change me each day. We are to strive toward perfection, and desire the mind of Christ. The problem, is that you are too carnal, and these things seem foolish to you.

Good point! Let's stick to the Bible. Uh... where does it say there are "bad words", like the famous 'f' word etc.? Even if there are, where does it say it's bad to watch movies that use bad words?

But anyway, this is a red herring. The question I posed is not answered by asking the opposite: how short is too short, etc. (BTW, a better counter question might be "how short is short enough?" I mean, don't libs, in your mind, think that way? :toofunny) It is answered by actually telling us how conservative you should be to be "conservative enough".

[revrandy]

I think when seperation becomes isolation that's too far.... it bleeds from Pastor to Saint... and all you have is some unfriendly folks that meet together, repent constantly and call it church....

[redeemedcynic84]

I am the epitome and great example of holiness. But I, even I, could probably be more holy.

None of you people around here is holy enough.

you know... pride is a sin and not holy...

[aquestioninggirl]

When I was a teenager..... You would have not belived how Ultra Con I was....... I was probable over the edge. The church I attended was UC and they thought going to festivles was wrong so I thought if that was wrong then we should not go to the grocery store...we should grow our own food.. seriously it was hard for me to see that anything was OK and there was a time I wanted to start my own UPC/ Amish community.

[aquestioninggirl]

See, that's where it breaks down. It will never stop. For ladies, if a skirt 4" below the knee is good, isn't 6" better? Why not drag it on the floor? If TV is bad, why not throw out the computer, too? Some books are bad, so throw them all out! For guys, if clean-shaven is good, how often do you shave? What about the 5 o'clock shadow? Maybe a shave twice a day is safe enough. But maybe not!

This was kind of my motivation for the thread. If cons and ultracons think that going so far to right is good, wouldn't it be better to go even farther? Is there some point that is far enough? You can always inch your way along, forever, seems to me.

I would throw out all children's books were the little girls had on pants.... why was'nt RR around with her book at the time? I also thought it was wrong to listen to any song that was not written or sung by UPC. (BTW any other oneness org at the time according to my church was going to the hot place so that is why I specify UPC)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Dumb Thread.

No liberal is going to admin it, except NYLP and his wife won't let him post!

Everyone wants to be conservative.

[Timmy]

Dumb Thread.

No liberal is going to admin it, except NYLP and his wife won't let him post!

Everyone wants to be conservative.

:slaphappy

[Sheltiedad]

See, that's where it breaks down. It will never stop. For ladies, if a skirt 4" below the knee is good, isn't 6" better? Why not drag it on the floor? If TV is bad, why not throw out the computer, too? Some books are bad, so throw them all out! For guys, if clean-shaven is good, how often do you shave? What about the 5 o'clock shadow? Maybe a shave twice a day is safe enough. But maybe not!

This was kind of my motivation for the thread. If cons and ultracons think that going so far to right is good, wouldn't it be better to go even farther? Is there some point that is far enough? You can always inch your way along, forever, seems to me.

Exactly... I saw the flaws in the logic when I was a teenager and they ate at me for literally years! And people seem to have selective memory about things that used to be preached against 20 years ago but are not any longer...

[Timmy]

Exactly... I saw the flaws in the logic when I was a teenager and they ate at me for literally years! And people seem to have selective memory about things that used to be preached against 20 years ago but are not any longer...

Yep, e.g., roller skating, bowling, dancing, playing cards, playing pool, rock and roll music, movies, TV, ... Oh, wait. Some things are still preached against! :toofunny

[OnTheFritz]

Bump ;)

[ILG]

Shut de door. Keep out de devil. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyjqRptRrU&feature=related

[Ron]

Timmy, I consider myself a middle of the road person with a slight Conservative slant at times.

Sad thing is about middle of the road types is this:

1. We tend to get accused of fence sitting.
2. Those who are middle of the road tend to get hit by by both camps (Cons & Libs)

***Sigh***

[Sept5SavedTeen]

This could be a great thread. I have some friends who are members of a "Pilgrim" church... they are always looking for new ways to shun the devil.

Wow! Someone else knows of the Pilgrim Church! I've been to a Pilgrim church... good times- the pastor's daughter was around my age... she had really long hair... :cupidlove

-Bro. Alex

[missourimary]

Timmy, every one needs to answer your question for themselves, with the Bible as their guide. I do believe there are certain things that go without saying as far as "holiness" go. But these include not only modesty, but also not slandering, gossiping, or lying. Malice, variance, strife, and envy are definitely "out" on God's holiness list as much or more so than hair length or clothing styles. There is a lot that "holiness" encompasses.

Now, for things that are not open to interpretation:
How much lying is too much? Any.
How much malice is too much? Any.
How much strife is too much? Any.
How much envy is too much? Any.
etc.

How conservative is UC? How liberal is lib? Depends on where you are standing. Where is the fine line of OK and not OK? If there is a fence around a sheepfold, the fence is the line. The sheep can be right up against it or off in the middle of the field. But the closer you are to the fence, the more likely you'll see a wolf. May still be safe, but still closer to something that could eat you. I think I'll stay away from the fence, myself.

[Pressing-On]

I am the center! Anything to the left of me is too liberal, and anything to the right of me is too conservative! :)

Don't you find that on some issues you can lean either way, although trying to maintain a center? I'm not sure anyone could actually be a "center" all the way across the board.

[Pressing-On]

Timmy, I consider myself a middle of the road person with a slight Conservative slant at times.

Sad thing is about middle of the road types is this:

1. We tend to get accused of fence sitting.
2. Those who are middle of the road tend to get hit by by both camps (Cons & Libs)

***Sigh***
Which times do you lean liberal? :D

[RandyWayne]

I don't try to be "Right wing" -just "Right". Sometimes, occasionally, once in a while, this means being "Left", but not usually.

[Ron]

Which times do you lean liberal? :D

You tell me oh observant one?:D

[Pressing-On]

You tell me oh observant one?:D

I don't know and even if I did, I wouldn't post it!! LOL! I just think that we want to maintain a center, but lean both ways in some areas. Do you agree with that?

[Ron]

I don't know and even if I did, I wouldn't post it!! LOL! I just think that we want to maintain a center, but lean both ways in some areas. Do you agree with that?

I tend to agree with that except when other times I tend not to!:D

[Pressing-On]

I tend to agree with that except when other times I tend not to!:D

:toofunny

Hey, that wasn't funny! :thwak

[Ron]

:toofunny

Hey, that wasn't funny! :thwak

Okay, Okay, a good way to tell if you are middle of the road is if some people think you are Liberal somedays & then other days Conservative!:thumbsup

Wheww, this balancing on the fence is tough work!:whistle

[Pressing-On]

Okay, Okay, a good way to tell if you are middle of the road is if some people think you are Liberal somedays & then other days Conservative!:thumbsup

Wheww, this balancing on the fence is tough work!:whistle
LOL! Sounds like work!

Speaking of work, I've gotta run. Have a good one!

[LUKE2447]

pretty simple answer....


Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
Mat 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

[Ron]

Take care PO!

[Cindy]

Timmy, my opinion is if you think you are holier than your brothers and sisters........your NOT holy.

[Timmy]

Timmy, my opinion is if you think you are holier than your brothers and sisters........your NOT holy.

Well I don't. So, I guess that means.... I am? But that would mean..... AAAGH! My head is spinning!

:toofunny

[Sister Alvear]

God and God alone KNOWS who is really holy...

[Aquila]

I used to be ultra conservative. The church we attended didn't believe in going to or watching sporting events, men had to have long sleeves (the wrist), men were expected to wear white shirts to services, men could never wear shorts, absolutely no facial hair, pastor preached against "Clooney cut" haircuts, the spiking of the hair and the use of styling gel. No attending a gym or community center where there was mixed company. Men were generally all expected to wear the same hair cut with variance as to where it was parted. No wedding bands, in fact no jewelry, not even a wrist watch. We used pocket watches or took the bands off our watches and placed them in our pockets. No "high top Reebock" shoes, they were worldly. Tennis shoes were okay and dress shoes were fine, however, no designs in the laces, and dress shoes were generally expected to be one color. No secular music at all. There wasn't any stipulation from the pulpit to listen to only UPCI music but many felt that was only right. Ladies had to have their dresses or skirts down to roughly two inches above their ankle, long sleeves, and necklines had to be within "two fingers" of the the collar bone. Ladies hair was expected to be straight and uncut. No styling. When in church, at church functions, or about daily business hair was expected to be up. Hair was only worn down around the house. (We did teach the magic hair doctrine uncompromisingly and the church still does). No makeup, jewelry, painting the nails, or glossy lip gloss. Women were only allowed to wear "nude" pantyhose. Colors like charcoal , blue, or red were considered provocative. Black ladies who's hair didn't grow naturally straight were expected to have a hat on, our pastor would say, "No fros". We had a group of men who started men's prayer on Saturday - to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. No DVD players. Home movies were allowed and were to be watched on a "monitor" that couldn't receive a television signal. No movie theaters. Children weren't allowed to have library cards, only parents. Ladies were expected to wear flats, or subtle pumps, no high heels because of the origin of the high heel. A ladies shoe had to encompass her entire foot, no straps. In addition no toes were to be shown. No alcohol, cigarettes, or tobacco products at all. Computers with the internet were allowed in the home IF it was considered part of one's job. (Eventually they let down on this standard.) Those who had the internet weren't allowed to usher or teach Sunday school unless they signed a paper stating that they had signed up for B-Safe Online software. All were expected to set the reporting email address to an email address of their "Care Group Leader".

I took my family a step higher, I began teaching "second covering" in my home Bible studies. I didn't allow my wife to go to church unless she had some "token of authority" in her hair or on her head such as a snood, doily, or barrette with cloth.

Some abusive things later happened at that church that wounded my family deeply. So my wife and I decided to leave. We began attended a more moderate church.

In my personal studies I've come to the conclusion that 99% of our standards are man made and are potentially dangerous to faith. Today my position is radically different.

I see nothing wrong with short sleeves. I have a pair of shorts I occasionally wear to exercise in at the gym (yes I have a membership - http://www.lafitness.com/Pages/default.aspx). I wear any color of shirt I want at a given moment. I still shave my face but I see nothing wrong with facial hair. I sometimes grow facial hair when we go to the cottage in Canada. My hair is currently layered (I can spike it), styled, and highlighted with blond highlights. My wife and I both wear wedding bands and occasionally we'll wear a necklace or bracelet. I wear a wrist watch now! LOL We both wear any pair of shoes we like, though my wife still stays away from what she feels to be too "trashy". We listen to most forms of music but mainly Christian music. Of my favorite secular styles are Jazz, Blues, Country, and yes... a little Metal on occasion. We own a television now. I enjoy taking my son to Baseball, Basket ball, and Hockey games. I occasionally take my wife out to the movies and we enjoy drive-ins. The wife wears short sleeves. She still wears dresses and skirts but her dresses and skirts are now kept about mid-shin or just below the knee. My wife's hair is now cut and styled, still long and hits her at about mid-back. Occasionally she'll wear a little make-up but I tell her she doesn't need it. She likes acrylic nails. Every now and then her neckline is lower than our first church's standards, but that's rare. Occasionally I like a little wine with dinner or a nice dark ale. I'll also enjoy a cigar every so often if I feel like it. The wife wears whatever color of hose she likes. And we monitor our own home internet usage.

If any of you feel that you're faith is being suffocated by man made rules and standards I strongly recommend this book... when I was about to loose my faith completely, I believe God had me discover this book.

6 Rules Every Man Must Break
by Bill Perkins
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Every-Man-Must-Break/dp/1414311400

Product Description
With startling frankness, Bill Perkins offers life-changing wisdom to help men find true freedom in Christ. Perkins shatters six man-made rules that sound good on the outside, but often keep men from reaching their full potential. He shows how breaking these taboos can help you break free to become the man that God created you to be.

* The Rule of Passivity: Never Get In a Fight
* The Rule of Playing it Safe: Never Risk It All
* The Rule of Perseverance: Never Give Up
* The Rule of Independence: Never Ask For Help
* The Rule of Restraint: Never Lose Your Cool
* The Rule of Impressing Others: Never Look Stupid

From the Inside Flap

You can develop a richer, closer walk with God—but according to Bill Perkins it all depends on your willingness to break a few rules.

The six man-made mandates exposed in this book corrode your soul by placing demands on you that are impossible to fulfill. They also keep you from cultivating a vibrant friendship with God based on his grace, not your ability to keep rules perfectly on your own.

You’ll see from Scripture how Christ intends his disciples to live, free from

the unbiblical expectations of the spiritual police
the futility of trying to keep God’s law on your own
the fear of expressing godly anger in a constructive way
the temptation to value the world’s opinion more than God’s

Join Bill as he leads the rebellion against man-made rules and calls men to trust instead in the revolutionary power of God.

[Aquila]

pretty simple answer....


Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


What do you believe Jesus means when he says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

[KWSS1976]

Can't wait to see this answer....LOL

[Cindy]

Well I don't. So, I guess that means.... I am? But that would mean..... AAAGH! My head is spinning!

:toofunny

:thumbsup

[crakjak]

I used to be ultra conservative. The church we attended didn't believe in going to or watching sporting events, men had to have long sleeves (the wrist), men were expected to wear white shirts to services, men could never wear shorts, absolutely no facial hair, pastor preached against "Clooney cut" haircuts, the spiking of the hair and the use of styling gel. No attending a gym or community center where there was mixed company. Men were generally all expected to wear the same hair cut with variance as to where it was parted. No wedding bands, in fact no jewelry, not even a wrist watch. We used pocket watches or took the bands off our watches and placed them in our pockets. No "high top Reebock" shoes, they were worldly. Tennis shoes were okay and dress shoes were fine, however, no designs in the laces, and dress shoes were generally expected to be one color. No secular music at all. There wasn't any stipulation from the pulpit to listen to only UPCI music but many felt that was only right. Ladies had to have their dresses or skirts down to roughly two inches above their ankle, long sleeves, and necklines had to be within "two fingers" of the the collar bone. Ladies hair was expected to be straight and uncut. No styling. When in church, at church functions, or about daily business hair was expected to be up. Hair was only worn down around the house. (We did teach the magic hair doctrine uncompromisingly and the church still does). No makeup, jewelry, painting the nails, or glossy lip gloss. Women were only allowed to wear "nude" pantyhose. Colors like charcoal , blue, or red were considered provocative. Black ladies who's hair didn't grow naturally straight were expected to have a hat on, our pastor would say, "No fros". We had a group of men who started men's prayer on Saturday - to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. No DVD players. Home movies were allowed and were to be watched on a "monitor" that couldn't receive a television signal. No movie theaters. Children weren't allowed to have library cards, only parents. Ladies were expected to wear flats, or subtle pumps, no high heels because of the origin of the high heel. A ladies shoe had to encompass her entire foot, no straps. In addition no toes were to be shown. No alcohol, cigarettes, or tobacco products at all. Computers with the internet were allowed in the home IF it was considered part of one's job. (Eventually they let down on this standard.) Those who had the internet weren't allowed to usher or teach Sunday school unless they signed a paper stating that they had signed up for B-Safe Online software. All were expected to set the reporting email address to an email address of their "Care Group Leader".

I took my family a step higher, I began teaching "second covering" in my home Bible studies. I didn't allow my wife to go to church unless she had some "token of authority" in her hair or on her head such as a snood, doily, or barrette with cloth.

Some abusive things later happened at that church that wounded my family deeply. So my wife and I decided to leave. We began attended a more moderate church.

In my personal studies I've come to the conclusion that 99% of our standards are man made and are potentially dangerous to faith. Today my position is radically different.

I see nothing wrong with short sleeves. I have a pair of shorts I occasionally wear to exercise in at the gym (yes I have a membership - http://www.lafitness.com/Pages/default.aspx). I wear any color of shirt I want at a given moment. I still shave my face but I see nothing wrong with facial hair. I sometimes grow facial hair when we go to the cottage in Canada. My hair is currently layered (I can spike it), styled, and highlighted with blond highlights. My wife and I both wear wedding bands and occasionally we'll wear a necklace or bracelet. I wear a wrist watch now! LOL We both wear any pair of shoes we like, though my wife still stays away from what she feels to be too "trashy". We listen to most forms of music but mainly Christian music. Of my favorite secular styles are Jazz, Blues, Country, and yes... a little Metal on occasion. We own a television now. I enjoy taking my son to Baseball, Basket ball, and Hockey games. I occasionally take my wife out to the movies and we enjoy drive-ins. The wife wears short sleeves. She still wears dresses and skirts but her dresses and skirts are now kept about mid-shin or just below the knee. My wife's hair is now cut and styled, still long and hits her at about mid-back. Occasionally she'll wear a little make-up but I tell her she doesn't need it. She likes acrylic nails. Every now and then her neckline is lower than our first church's standards, but that's rare. Occasionally I like a little wine with dinner or a nice dark ale. I'll also enjoy a cigar every so often if I feel like it. The wife wears whatever color of hose she likes. And we monitor our own home internet usage.

If any of you feel that you're faith is being suffocated by man made rules and standards I strongly recommend this book... when I was about to loose my faith completely, I believe God had me discover this book.

6 Rules Every Man Must Break
by Bill Perkins
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Every-Man-Must-Break/dp/1414311400

Product Description
With startling frankness, Bill Perkins offers life-changing wisdom to help men find true freedom in Christ. Perkins shatters six man-made rules that sound good on the outside, but often keep men from reaching their full potential. He shows how breaking these taboos can help you break free to become the man that God created you to be.

* The Rule of Passivity: Never Get In a Fight
* The Rule of Playing it Safe: Never Risk It All
* The Rule of Perseverance: Never Give Up
* The Rule of Independence: Never Ask For Help
* The Rule of Restraint: Never Lose Your Cool
* The Rule of Impressing Others: Never Look Stupid

From the Inside Flap

You can develop a richer, closer walk with God—but according to Bill Perkins it all depends on your willingness to break a few rules.

The six man-made mandates exposed in this book corrode your soul by placing demands on you that are impossible to fulfill. They also keep you from cultivating a vibrant friendship with God based on his grace, not your ability to keep rules perfectly on your own.

You’ll see from Scripture how Christ intends his disciples to live, free from

the unbiblical expectations of the spiritual police
the futility of trying to keep God’s law on your own
the fear of expressing godly anger in a constructive way
the temptation to value the world’s opinion more than God’s

Join Bill as he leads the rebellion against man-made rules and calls men to trust instead in the revolutionary power of God.

Chis, the wild one! lol Love you man!

[Timmy]

I used to be ultra conservative. The church we attended didn't believe in going to or watching sporting events, men had to have long sleeves (the wrist), men were expected to wear white shirts to services, men could never wear shorts, absolutely no facial hair, pastor preached against "Clooney cut" haircuts, the spiking of the hair and the use of styling gel. No attending a gym or community center where there was mixed company. Men were generally all expected to wear the same hair cut with variance as to where it was parted. No wedding bands, in fact no jewelry, not even a wrist watch. We used pocket watches or took the bands off our watches and placed them in our pockets. No "high top Reebock" shoes, they were worldly. Tennis shoes were okay and dress shoes were fine, however, no designs in the laces, and dress shoes were generally expected to be one color. No secular music at all. There wasn't any stipulation from the pulpit to listen to only UPCI music but many felt that was only right. Ladies had to have their dresses or skirts down to roughly two inches above their ankle, long sleeves, and necklines had to be within "two fingers" of the the collar bone. Ladies hair was expected to be straight and uncut. No styling. When in church, at church functions, or about daily business hair was expected to be up. Hair was only worn down around the house. (We did teach the magic hair doctrine uncompromisingly and the church still does). No makeup, jewelry, painting the nails, or glossy lip gloss. Women were only allowed to wear "nude" pantyhose. Colors like charcoal , blue, or red were considered provocative. Black ladies who's hair didn't grow naturally straight were expected to have a hat on, our pastor would say, "No fros". We had a group of men who started men's prayer on Saturday - to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. No DVD players. Home movies were allowed and were to be watched on a "monitor" that couldn't receive a television signal. No movie theaters. Children weren't allowed to have library cards, only parents. Ladies were expected to wear flats, or subtle pumps, no high heels because of the origin of the high heel. A ladies shoe had to encompass her entire foot, no straps. In addition no toes were to be shown. No alcohol, cigarettes, or tobacco products at all. Computers with the internet were allowed in the home IF it was considered part of one's job. (Eventually they let down on this standard.) Those who had the internet weren't allowed to usher or teach Sunday school unless they signed a paper stating that they had signed up for B-Safe Online software. All were expected to set the reporting email address to an email address of their "Care Group Leader".

I took my family a step higher, I began teaching "second covering" in my home Bible studies. I didn't allow my wife to go to church unless she had some "token of authority" in her hair or on her head such as a snood, doily, or barrette with cloth.

Some abusive things later happened at that church that wounded my family deeply. So my wife and I decided to leave. We began attended a more moderate church.

In my personal studies I've come to the conclusion that 99% of our standards are man made and are potentially dangerous to faith. Today my position is radically different.

I see nothing wrong with short sleeves. I have a pair of shorts I occasionally wear to exercise in at the gym (yes I have a membership - http://www.lafitness.com/Pages/default.aspx). I wear any color of shirt I want at a given moment. I still shave my face but I see nothing wrong with facial hair. I sometimes grow facial hair when we go to the cottage in Canada. My hair is currently layered (I can spike it), styled, and highlighted with blond highlights. My wife and I both wear wedding bands and occasionally we'll wear a necklace or bracelet. I wear a wrist watch now! LOL We both wear any pair of shoes we like, though my wife still stays away from what she feels to be too "trashy". We listen to most forms of music but mainly Christian music. Of my favorite secular styles are Jazz, Blues, Country, and yes... a little Metal on occasion. We own a television now. I enjoy taking my son to Baseball, Basket ball, and Hockey games. I occasionally take my wife out to the movies and we enjoy drive-ins. The wife wears short sleeves. She still wears dresses and skirts but her dresses and skirts are now kept about mid-shin or just below the knee. My wife's hair is now cut and styled, still long and hits her at about mid-back. Occasionally she'll wear a little make-up but I tell her she doesn't need it. She likes acrylic nails. Every now and then her neckline is lower than our first church's standards, but that's rare. Occasionally I like a little wine with dinner or a nice dark ale. I'll also enjoy a cigar every so often if I feel like it. The wife wears whatever color of hose she likes. And we monitor our own home internet usage.

If any of you feel that you're faith is being suffocated by man made rules and standards I strongly recommend this book... when I was about to loose my faith completely, I believe God had me discover this book.

6 Rules Every Man Must Break
by Bill Perkins
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Every-Man-Must-Break/dp/1414311400

Product Description
With startling frankness, Bill Perkins offers life-changing wisdom to help men find true freedom in Christ. Perkins shatters six man-made rules that sound good on the outside, but often keep men from reaching their full potential. He shows how breaking these taboos can help you break free to become the man that God created you to be.

* The Rule of Passivity: Never Get In a Fight
* The Rule of Playing it Safe: Never Risk It All
* The Rule of Perseverance: Never Give Up
* The Rule of Independence: Never Ask For Help
* The Rule of Restraint: Never Lose Your Cool
* The Rule of Impressing Others: Never Look Stupid

From the Inside Flap

You can develop a richer, closer walk with God—but according to Bill Perkins it all depends on your willingness to break a few rules.

The six man-made mandates exposed in this book corrode your soul by placing demands on you that are impossible to fulfill. They also keep you from cultivating a vibrant friendship with God based on his grace, not your ability to keep rules perfectly on your own.

You’ll see from Scripture how Christ intends his disciples to live, free from

the unbiblical expectations of the spiritual police
the futility of trying to keep God’s law on your own
the fear of expressing godly anger in a constructive way
the temptation to value the world’s opinion more than God’s

Join Bill as he leads the rebellion against man-made rules and calls men to trust instead in the revolutionary power of God.

Thanks for posting! (After all that work, I couldn't let it go unacknowledged! :lol)

Ladies had to have their dresses or skirts down to roughly two inches above their ankle

Wouldn't they be even better off completely covering the ankles? :hmmm

[Newman]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

Timmy- I am curious why you post here. You link to an ex-pentecostal site but say that your not ex-Apostolic (if I read the poll correctly). Just trying to understand where you come from and what you seek...

In response to your initial post; isn't it possible that God's Church ministers to lots of different people? And people drawn to conservative churches need/appreciate conservative standards? :cool:

[LUKE2447]

What do you believe Jesus means when he says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Pure of Heart!

oh that's right.... he really didn't mean it!

[OnTheFritz]

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Pure of Heart!

oh that's right.... he really didn't mean it!

Are you planning to answer the question at any point? Just curious. ;)

[TJJJ]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

TIMMY!!!!!

Wherever the line is, you are certainly to the far, far left of it!!!!

:ursofunny

[jaxfam6]

TIMMY!!!!!

Wherever the line is, you are certainly to the far, far left of it!!!!

:ursofunny

BUT what if Timmy is really the center?

[jaxfam6]

[QUOTE=Aquila;758906][QUOTE]

i am not taking up all that space for that post =)

Aquila my friend I am very glad to hear that you are finding your way for yourself. KNOWING what you believe because you and God have a relationship where he can lead you and guide is much better than being self righteous just because others around you are that same way. God bless you and yours.

[nahkoe]

Timmy- I am curious why you post here. You link to an ex-pentecostal site but say that your not ex-Apostolic (if I read the poll correctly). Just trying to understand where you come from and what you seek...

In response to your initial post; isn't it possible that God's Church ministers to lots of different people? And people drawn to conservative churches need/appreciate conservative standards? :cool:

Ok, having grown up what I always heard referred to as Pentecostal (but not what y'all here would call Pentecostal) I can answer this one. Pentecostal and Apostolic are not necessarily the same thing. I've never been Apostolic (baptism, and only when "Jesus" is spoken and tongues necessary for salvation, standards) but I was Pentecostal (baptism something you did out of obedience, tongues a gift of the Holy Spirit that were sought and expected to occur, but not necessary to make it to heaven). Specifically, I grew up AoG and they definitely considered themselves to be Pentecostal at that time. Been quite a few years since I attended an AoG church though, I have no idea what the national, regional or anything else atmosphere is now.

[Timmy]

Ok, having grown up what I always heard referred to as Pentecostal (but not what y'all here would call Pentecostal) I can answer this one. Pentecostal and Apostolic are not necessarily the same thing. I've never been Apostolic (baptism, and only when "Jesus" is spoken and tongues necessary for salvation, standards) but I was Pentecostal (baptism something you did out of obedience, tongues a gift of the Holy Spirit that were sought and expected to occur, but not necessary to make it to heaven). Specifically, I grew up AoG and they definitely considered themselves to be Pentecostal at that time. Been quite a few years since I attended an AoG church though, I have no idea what the national, regional or anything else atmosphere is now.

I was AG, too, till 2005. AG is still Pentecostal, but a lot of churches these days rarely have messages in tongues. Sometimes there's praying in tongues at the altar etc., and they still have the occasional revival meeting where things get stirred up again, for a while.

So, why am I here? I have a burden for the lost! :ursofunny

[LUKE2447]

Are you planning to answer the question at any point? Just curious. ;)

I believe what I said was sufficient....

Perfect = wanting nothing necessary to completeness read the context of the verse on THAT post and my other and this. Thus we are complete in the provision of God and thus have true faith, pure of heart.


Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Timmy]

I believe what I said was sufficient....

Perfect = wanting nothing necessary to completeness read the context of the verse on THAT post and my other and this. Thus we are complete in the provision of God and thus have true faith, pure of heart.


Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

So, are you perfect?

[LUKE2447]

So, are you perfect?

What I am does not matter as it proves nothing. One must understand "perfect" in it's context. I can be perfect/complete or imperfect does it change the meaning of scripture? I only claim what he says. I claim nothing in regards to judgment of myself. He is my judge, not myself and not you. You obviously have not read the scriptures as you think asking a question of me = destroying the scriptural argument. Sorry but you need to deal with scripture first before you start questioning people.

Also we are made perfect by the Spirit...

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Which to do the will of the Spirit is to fulfill law and walk as he walked.

[Timmy]

What I am does not matter as it proves nothing. One must understand "perfect" in it's context. I can be perfect/complete or imperfect does it change the meaning of scripture? I only claim what he says. I claim nothing in regards to judgment of myself. He is my judge, not myself and not you. You obviously have not read the scriptures as you think asking a question of me = destroying the scriptural argument. Sorry but you need to deal with scripture first before you start questioning people.

Ooooooh, ya got me!!! (We need a melodramatic over-acted dying smilie! :lol)

[OnTheFritz]

What I am does not matter as it proves nothing. One must understand "perfect" in it's context. I can be perfect/complete or imperfect does it change the meaning of scripture? I only claim what he says. I claim nothing in regards to judgment of myself. He is my judge, not myself and not you. You obviously have not read the scriptures as you think asking a question of me = destroying the scriptural argument. Sorry but you need to deal with scripture first before you start questioning people.

Yet, you must have some basis for the stands you have decided to take or not take -- the standards you deem necessary or unnecessary. I think some just want to know how you reached your current set of standards. Not to judge, just to understand.

[jaxfam6]

Yet, you must have some basis for the stands you have decided to take or not take -- the standards you deem necessary or unnecessary. I think some just want to know how you reached your current set of standards. Not to judge, just to understand.

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!!

We want to JUDGE


:ursofunny

[OnTheFritz]

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!!

We want to JUDGE


:ursofunny

Well, of course - but I can't SAY that... :lol

[LUKE2447]

Yet, you must have some basis for the stands you have decided to take or not take -- the standards you deem necessary or unnecessary. I think some just want to know how you reached your current set of standards. Not to judge, just to understand.


Which was the point of scripture and....

Originally Posted by LUKE2447
What I am does not matter as it proves nothing. One must understand "perfect" in it's context. I can be perfect/complete or imperfect does it change the meaning of scripture? I only claim what he says. I claim nothing in regards to judgment of myself. He is my judge, not myself and not you. You obviously have not read the scriptures as you think asking a question of me = destroying the scriptural argument. Sorry but you need to deal with scripture first before you start questioning people.

The question of whether I am perfect is not relevant to how I came to my current standards especially when he is the judge of faithfulness and our standard are to be based on his holiness not some philosophical excuse of why we can't, which is usually what the counter point is and it diminishes the work of the Spirit in our lives.

[Timmy]

Which was the point of scripture and....

Originally Posted by LUKE2447
What I am does not matter as it proves nothing. One must understand "perfect" in it's context. I can be perfect/complete or imperfect does it change the meaning of scripture? I only claim what he says. I claim nothing in regards to judgment of myself. He is my judge, not myself and not you. You obviously have not read the scriptures as you think asking a question of me = destroying the scriptural argument. Sorry but you need to deal with scripture first before you start questioning people.

The question of whether I am perfect is not relevant to how I came to my current standards especially when he is the judge of faithfulness and our standard are to be based on his holiness not some philosophical excuse of why we can't, which is usually what the counter point is and it diminishes the work of the Spirit in our lives.

Then why did you bring it up? You offered those scriptures as the "simple answer" to the question of how conservative is conservative enough. Sorry, but it wasn't simple enough for me to get it.

But I guess you're right, technically -- it is irrelevant whether you are perfect (or conservative enough), but I was just wondering. It's a discussion forum, after all. ;)

[LUKE2447]

Then why did you bring it up? You offered those scriptures as the "simple answer" to the question of how conservative is conservative enough. Sorry, but it wasn't simple enough for me to get it.

But I guess you're right, technically -- it is irrelevant whether you are perfect (or conservative enough), but I was just wondering. It's a discussion forum, after all. ;)

You asked how conservative is enough. My reply was simple as was the scripture. Conservative and liberal as our Father! Many think of "perfect" incorrectly. It's not about did you get a math problem wrong, or accidently mix a red with the white in the laundry. It is about pureness of heart. People make imperfection a sin in the modern context and that is not the case. Mistakes and error happen does not mean we are in sin or it was sin. Two different things. You can't be judged on how you are made as he made you. We are imperfect people but we are to seek his perfection of heart by the leading of the Spirit, thus faithfulness. You either live according to the flesh or the Spirit. We are to be like Jesus not our own will but HIS will that we may abide in his love as he did the Father's and we in his.

[LUKE2447]

Then why did you bring it up? You offered those scriptures as the "simple answer" to the question of how conservative is conservative enough. Sorry, but it wasn't simple enough for me to get it.

But I guess you're right, technically -- it is irrelevant whether you are perfect (or conservative enough), but I was just wondering. It's a discussion forum, after all. ;)

I did not bring my "perfection" up! I simply stated we are to be perfect as he is and the following verses gave depth to what he meant. Then I gave biblical example of it with Zech and Eliz as they walked the way they should walk.....faithfully and perfect in the law.

[Timmy]

I did not bring my "perfection" up! I simply stated we are to be perfect as he is and the following verses gave depth to what he meant. Then I gave biblical example of it with Zech and Eliz as they walked the way they should walk.....faithfully and perfect in the law.

Point taken! :thumbsup

I guess a follow-up question would be this: does faithfully and perfectly "walking" equal being conservative? It seems like cons and UCs on this board think so. They like to point out this or that scripture, interpret it as literally as they can, and (in effect) say, "See? I'm following this to the letter, and you libs are not!" They also tend to go farther than the minimum requirements, with the idea of driving as far from the guard rail as they can (as mentioned in this thread a while back). If the Bible says stay a foot away from the edge, they'll say stay 20 feet away. ;)

Thoughts?

[LUKE2447]

Point taken! :thumbsup

I guess a follow-up question would be this: does faithfully and perfectly "walking" equal being conservative? It seems like cons and UCs on this board think so. They like to point out this or that scripture, interpret it as literally as they can, and (in effect) say, "See? I'm following this to the letter, and you libs are not!" They also tend to go farther than the minimum requirements, with the idea of driving as far from the guard rail as they can (as mentioned in this thread a while back). If the Bible says stay a foot away from the edge, they'll say stay 20 feet away. ;)

Thoughts?

Personaly myself "it" is what "it" is. To go to far in either direction is off the narrow road. To say that does not mean being a moderate though as moderates tend to be not strict enough or not liberal enough and just settle for what seems right in when looking at the extremes thus not to be a bad guy on either side to avoid conflict. I believe somethings are liberal as in themselves there is no sin but it is best not to do because it elevates the pride in others and gives the flesh area to work. Thus love is lost when considering thy neighbors etc....

[LUKE2447]

Point taken! :thumbsup

I guess a follow-up question would be this: does faithfully and perfectly "walking" equal being conservative? It seems like cons and UCs on this board think so. They like to point out this or that scripture, interpret it as literally as they can, and (in effect) say, "See? I'm following this to the letter, and you libs are not!" They also tend to go farther than the minimum requirements, with the idea of driving as far from the guard rail as they can (as mentioned in this thread a while back). If the Bible says stay a foot away from the edge, they'll say stay 20 feet away. ;)

Thoughts?

Also there is nothing wrong with fences as long as you don't make your fence the end all without biblical support. I don't know of any good fences that are not set a dictance from the edge of a cliff so that they are built on solid ground.

[Timmy]

Also there is nothing wrong with fences as long as you don't make your fence the end all without biblical support. I don't know of any good fences that are not set a dictance from the edge of a cliff so that they are built on solid ground.

A while back, I posted a somewhat TIC definition of the various lib/con categories:

Thinking of the cliff analogy:

UC: Builds a concrete guard rail twenty feet away. Wonders if it should be thirty.

Con: Builds a steel guard rail ten feet away.

Mod: A sturdy wooden fence will do.

Lib: A few warning signs, here and there.

UL: Just be careful around the cliff, OK?

Timmy: What cliff???

:toofunny

[ILG]

Aquila.

Sounds like we have walked similar paths. Good post.


I used to be ultra conservative. The church we attended didn't believe in going to or watching sporting events, men had to have long sleeves (the wrist), men were expected to wear white shirts to services, men could never wear shorts, absolutely no facial hair, pastor preached against "Clooney cut" haircuts, the spiking of the hair and the use of styling gel. No attending a gym or community center where there was mixed company. Men were generally all expected to wear the same hair cut with variance as to where it was parted. No wedding bands, in fact no jewelry, not even a wrist watch. We used pocket watches or took the bands off our watches and placed them in our pockets. No "high top Reebock" shoes, they were worldly. Tennis shoes were okay and dress shoes were fine, however, no designs in the laces, and dress shoes were generally expected to be one color. No secular music at all. There wasn't any stipulation from the pulpit to listen to only UPCI music but many felt that was only right. Ladies had to have their dresses or skirts down to roughly two inches above their ankle, long sleeves, and necklines had to be within "two fingers" of the the collar bone. Ladies hair was expected to be straight and uncut. No styling. When in church, at church functions, or about daily business hair was expected to be up. Hair was only worn down around the house. (We did teach the magic hair doctrine uncompromisingly and the church still does). No makeup, jewelry, painting the nails, or glossy lip gloss. Women were only allowed to wear "nude" pantyhose. Colors like charcoal , blue, or red were considered provocative. Black ladies who's hair didn't grow naturally straight were expected to have a hat on, our pastor would say, "No fros". We had a group of men who started men's prayer on Saturday - to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. No DVD players. Home movies were allowed and were to be watched on a "monitor" that couldn't receive a television signal. No movie theaters. Children weren't allowed to have library cards, only parents. Ladies were expected to wear flats, or subtle pumps, no high heels because of the origin of the high heel. A ladies shoe had to encompass her entire foot, no straps. In addition no toes were to be shown. No alcohol, cigarettes, or tobacco products at all. Computers with the internet were allowed in the home IF it was considered part of one's job. (Eventually they let down on this standard.) Those who had the internet weren't allowed to usher or teach Sunday school unless they signed a paper stating that they had signed up for B-Safe Online software. All were expected to set the reporting email address to an email address of their "Care Group Leader".

I took my family a step higher, I began teaching "second covering" in my home Bible studies. I didn't allow my wife to go to church unless she had some "token of authority" in her hair or on her head such as a snood, doily, or barrette with cloth.

Some abusive things later happened at that church that wounded my family deeply. So my wife and I decided to leave. We began attended a more moderate church.

In my personal studies I've come to the conclusion that 99% of our standards are man made and are potentially dangerous to faith. Today my position is radically different.

I see nothing wrong with short sleeves. I have a pair of shorts I occasionally wear to exercise in at the gym (yes I have a membership - http://www.lafitness.com/Pages/default.aspx). I wear any color of shirt I want at a given moment. I still shave my face but I see nothing wrong with facial hair. I sometimes grow facial hair when we go to the cottage in Canada. My hair is currently layered (I can spike it), styled, and highlighted with blond highlights. My wife and I both wear wedding bands and occasionally we'll wear a necklace or bracelet. I wear a wrist watch now! LOL We both wear any pair of shoes we like, though my wife still stays away from what she feels to be too "trashy". We listen to most forms of music but mainly Christian music. Of my favorite secular styles are Jazz, Blues, Country, and yes... a little Metal on occasion. We own a television now. I enjoy taking my son to Baseball, Basket ball, and Hockey games. I occasionally take my wife out to the movies and we enjoy drive-ins. The wife wears short sleeves. She still wears dresses and skirts but her dresses and skirts are now kept about mid-shin or just below the knee. My wife's hair is now cut and styled, still long and hits her at about mid-back. Occasionally she'll wear a little make-up but I tell her she doesn't need it. She likes acrylic nails. Every now and then her neckline is lower than our first church's standards, but that's rare. Occasionally I like a little wine with dinner or a nice dark ale. I'll also enjoy a cigar every so often if I feel like it. The wife wears whatever color of hose she likes. And we monitor our own home internet usage.

If any of you feel that you're faith is being suffocated by man made rules and standards I strongly recommend this book... when I was about to loose my faith completely, I believe God had me discover this book.

6 Rules Every Man Must Break
by Bill Perkins
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Every-Man-Must-Break/dp/1414311400

Product Description
With startling frankness, Bill Perkins offers life-changing wisdom to help men find true freedom in Christ. Perkins shatters six man-made rules that sound good on the outside, but often keep men from reaching their full potential. He shows how breaking these taboos can help you break free to become the man that God created you to be.

* The Rule of Passivity: Never Get In a Fight
* The Rule of Playing it Safe: Never Risk It All
* The Rule of Perseverance: Never Give Up
* The Rule of Independence: Never Ask For Help
* The Rule of Restraint: Never Lose Your Cool
* The Rule of Impressing Others: Never Look Stupid

From the Inside Flap

You can develop a richer, closer walk with God—but according to Bill Perkins it all depends on your willingness to break a few rules.

The six man-made mandates exposed in this book corrode your soul by placing demands on you that are impossible to fulfill. They also keep you from cultivating a vibrant friendship with God based on his grace, not your ability to keep rules perfectly on your own.

You’ll see from Scripture how Christ intends his disciples to live, free from

the unbiblical expectations of the spiritual police
the futility of trying to keep God’s law on your own
the fear of expressing godly anger in a constructive way
the temptation to value the world’s opinion more than God’s

Join Bill as he leads the rebellion against man-made rules and calls men to trust instead in the revolutionary power of God.

[Falla39]

In my almost 70 yrs, I have seen people go from one extreme to another. No balance.
I wonder what Paul had in mind when he said a "double-minded man is unstable in all
his ways".
I do not mean this in an offensive way at all. But I have seen those who went to a
personal extreme such as no hairspray. no deodrant, long sleeves, no wedding rings,
no videos or technology where you could see anything, good or bad, and a lot other
things. I have seen people do this even though the church they attended didn't carry
it that far. But there were those churches who did.

Then I have seen those who went from the extreme right (super-spiritual)
to the left side of the middle of the right side. Not going to a radical position
of drinking, gambling, stealing and carousing, etc. In other words they didn't
go all the way to the extreme left but half-way there. Later on, some of
them made it all the way there too. Sad stories. They began to feel THEIR
liberty. And it wasn't in the Lord either. Time proved that. Once they started
drifting, they fell "asleep" or were lulled to sleep, and found themselves on the
wrong side of the road and had lost complete control. That's what happens when
we take control and take it away from HIM. This is not directed to any one person
or persons.

My father stayed in the Word and sought the Holy Ghost for wisdom and direction in
his life as long as he lived. He sought to be "presentable", not flashy, neither sloppy.
He loved his neighbors, his country, his family and most of all, his GOD. I believe he
sought a balance. a middle of the right road. In other words, a place in the midddle
of the right side of the road. If you went to far on the right, you could be in the ditch.
But if you started drifting too far to the left side (where travelers were coming from
the opposite direction, that would be dangerous also. So just stay in the center of
right side and you were safe (balanced). Daddy wasn't a double-mined man and I am
my father's daughter! Wasn't far from him as long as he lived. I feel he knew there
were a whole bunch following behind him and he couldn't afford to make poor choices.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge Him and He SHALL direct thy paths. Prov. 3:5,6

Just In Time
Dottie Rambo

I was going down for the last time
No one heard my cry
My voice was swiftly fading
Drifting with the tide
When a hand from out of nowhere
Gently slipped in mine
And I thank God He found me just in time

I don't remember drifting
'Cause pleasure rode with me
When careless winds start blowing
You drift so easily
And storms make no exception
And friend I've sure had mine
And I thank God He found me just in time

Chorus
Just before the waves of slumber
Had rocked my soul to sleep
Just before the angry billows
Had pulled me out too deep
God knows how long I'd drifted
When I saw the old lifeline
And I thank God He found me
Just in time

Blessings,

Falla39

[jaxfam6]

Well, of course - but I can't SAY that... :lol

WHY NOT? I did

=)

[Aquila]

Chis, the wild one! lol Love you man!

LOL

Love you too bro!

[Aquila]

Wouldn't they be even better off completely covering the ankles? :hmmm

Probably... but some of our ladies had real nice ankles. :wub

:lol

[Aquila]

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Pure of Heart!

oh that's right.... he really didn't mean it!

All the commandments and ordinances of the Lord? Like not wearing poly-knit clothing? That can't be the meaning.

The term "righteous" before God, that's important. But what is being "righteous"?

Pure of heart? That's also a good answer in my opinion... and I firmly believe that's part of it.

But I think Jesus meant something pretty down to earth here. The Greek word for "perfect" is "teleios". It is often translated "perfect", "man", or "full of age", "mature"; all in the sense of wanting nothing additional to complete us.

The Army put it this way, "Be All You Can Be".

But here's a secret most don't realize. You can't be all you can be unless you ditch the man made rules that shackle you from becoming who God made you to be. By obeying all the man made rules... you just become what men want you to be. And in that, you have your reward.

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=Aquila;758906][QUOTE]

i am not taking up all that space for that post =)

Aquila my friend I am very glad to hear that you are finding your way for yourself. KNOWING what you believe because you and God have a relationship where he can lead you and guide is much better than being self righteous just because others around you are that same way. God bless you and yours.

Thanks Jax. For some, living by religion's rules is easy because they don't have to think or pray about things. They just believe and do what is in the manual. However, for others this kind of religiosity stagnates and burns them out. I've learned that I didn't mature or grow in God until I ditched the man made rules and had to pray and think about things in light of Scripture, seeking answers... often on my own. Don't get me wrong, I make mistakes. It's often difficult trying to live for God according to the Spirit. Sometimes I feel like going back to the "mold" as I call it would be a lot easier. But there are times when me and Jesus sit and talk (He isn't UPCI by the way) and I wouldn't trade that for the world.

[Aquila]

Personally, this is the path I follow in my attempt to be "perfect" as my father in heaven is perfect...

I try to love God with all I am.

- I try not to have anything more important than him in my life.
- I try not to be materialistic.
- I give God reverence.
- I set time aside to worship him.

I try to love and treat others the way I'd want to be loved and treated.

- When my mom was alive I cherished her. Today I keep my pastor in the highest respect, even though we disagree sometime.
- I refuse to shed blood or speak evil of a brother slanderously as gossip (confession here, I like to jab at some folks online when debating, but I don't go about murdering anyone with my tongue offline. In fact, all of you - liberal or conservative are some of the finest folks in Pentecost.
- I'm faithful to my wife.
- I respect the property of others and I don't take what's not mine.
- I don't lie about people.
- And I try not to loose sight and become consumed with wanting what others might have. (I sincerely struggle here sometimes.)

Those are my spiritual objectives. Most of the time I do well and meet my objectives. But there have been times when I've broken every rule I've set out to keep at one point or another. I have faith that if I focus on those things and do my very best...the rest of it all will fall into place.

That's my path. I trust some of you have a different approach. Some of you might have a better approach. But I don't focus on the traditions of men so much anymore.

[GrowingPains]

Modesty and skirt/ankle length are not encouraged in most churches because of the Law. It's the pastor making that distinction for the community. We all have lines somewhere. Thong bikinis I'm sure aren't welcome at your house of worship. Some pastors abrogate the responsibility to make application of 1st truths in a 21st century world. Could it be our idealism is not realistic?

Regarding the interpretations of jewelry and hair -- those must be defended only with the Word, since it's the Word that many cite as their reason for believing these things as doctrines.

[GrowingPains]

[QUOTE=jaxfam6;758964][QUOTE=Aquila;758906]

Thanks Jax. For some, living by religion's rules is easy because they don't have to think or pray about things. They just believe and do what is in the manual. However, for others this kind of religiosity stagnates and burns them out. I've learned that I didn't mature or grow in God until I ditched the man made rules and had to pray and think about things in light of Scripture, seeking answers... often on my own. Don't get me wrong, I make mistakes. It's often difficult trying to live for God according to the Spirit. Sometimes I feel like going back to the "mold" as I call it would be a lot easier. But there are times when me and Jesus sit and talk (He isn't UPCI by the way) and I wouldn't trade that for the world.

Aquila. I appreciate your posts. Are you a pastor? Not all saints are the same. Some will never mature, but they will be saved. What that means is that some needs things spelled out, and others need space. Perhaps this brings more reason that the pastor should avoid, as much as possible, blanket theologies concerning distinctives, if he can just be more personal with the saints. We are all not the same... and each sheep needs to be guided accordingly. You're right, true sanctification happens when it isn't dictated. Pastors can help the congregation know what God likes and doesn't like through sound teaching, and then letting the congregation make the application. I've been accused of being an idealist, and maybe that's true.

[Pressing-On]

In response to your initial post; isn't it possible that God's Church ministers to lots of different people? And people drawn to conservative churches need/appreciate conservative standards? :cool:

I appreciate them. Just like many, at various times, I've wondered what my true stance has been. I have found that after posting on these forums many have made me feel more appreciative toward those that uphold standards of dress. I didn't originally feel that way in the beginning of my posting tenure. But the more the issue is pushed and criticized, the more I appreciate those that desire to live a more simple lifestyle in many ways, especially in this fast, moving, changing day and age.

One thing I don't advocate is pushing a said standard on a person. We need to be patient and allow God to do the work, whatever it is He wants in a person's life in the way of consecration and personal conviction.

I do find it rather disingenuous of those that say they only found a true relationship when they stopped a more conforming lifestyle, as though those that follow a church standard have not found a true relationship with God. That may be true for THEM, but they certainly can't honestly speak for everyone else on that subject.

One thing I don't like is how society, in a large way, puts pressure on women to conform to cosmetics in order to feel accepted and appreciated. That, IMO, is just as bad as those that are opposed to a church standard.

If you look at all of the chemicals in hair dye and cosmetics - it's not even healthy. Just my two cents. :D

[LUKE2447]

Personally, this is the path I follow in my attempt to be "perfect" as my father in heaven is perfect...

I try to love God with all I am.

- I try not to have anything more important than him in my life.
- I try not to be materialistic.
- I give God reverence.
- I set time aside to worship him.

I try to love and treat others the way I'd want to be loved and treated.

- When my mom was alive I cherished her. Today I keep my pastor in the highest respect, even though we disagree sometime.
- I refuse to shed blood or speak evil of a brother slanderously as gossip (confession here, I like to jab at some folks online when debating, but I don't go about murdering anyone with my tongue offline. In fact, all of you - liberal or conservative are some of the finest folks in Pentecost.
- I'm faithful to my wife.
- I respect the property of others and I don't take what's not mine.
- I don't lie about people.
- And I try not to loose sight and become consumed with wanting what others might have. (I sincerely struggle here sometimes.)

Those are my spiritual objectives. Most of the time I do well and meet my objectives. But there have been times when I've broken every rule I've set out to keep at one point or another. I have faith that if I focus on those things and do my very best...the rest of it all will fall into place.

That's my path. I trust some of you have a different approach. Some of you might have a better approach. But I don't focus on the traditions of men so much anymore.

Sounds like a good principled approach! :thumbsup

[LUKE2447]

All the commandments and ordinances of the Lord? Like not wearing poly-knit clothing? That can't be the meaning.

The term "righteous" before God, that's important. But what is being "righteous"?

Pure of heart? That's also a good answer in my opinion... and I firmly believe that's part of it.

But I think Jesus meant something pretty down to earth here. The Greek word for "perfect" is "teleios". It is often translated "perfect", "man", or "full of age", "mature"; all in the sense of wanting nothing additional to complete us.

The Army put it this way, "Be All You Can Be".

But here's a secret most don't realize. You can't be all you can be unless you ditch the man made rules that shackle you from becoming who God made you to be. By obeying all the man made rules... you just become what men want you to be. And in that, you have your reward.

Yes, but principled teaching should be consistent not everyone all over the place. That is what you see now. Also I find it interesting that everyone puts down God's law because they don't relate to it. Just an observation.

Which if you read my other post you would understand why I said complete! He is our completion our goal of which we are to reflect HIS glory in so that our very being in all manner speaks holy as a witness of who He is.

[EVAunit01]

I really don't like the question of "how conservative is conservative enough". I think what we should really be asking is "Am I following God's Law?" Whether society views it as liberal or conservative shouldn't matter.

[Pressing-On]

Personally, this is the path I follow in my attempt to be "perfect" as my father in heaven is perfect...

I try to love God with all I am.

- I try not to have anything more important than him in my life.
- I try not to be materialistic.
- I give God reverence.
- I set time aside to worship him.

I try to love and treat others the way I'd want to be loved and treated.

- When my mom was alive I cherished her. Today I keep my pastor in the highest respect, even though we disagree sometime.
- I refuse to shed blood or speak evil of a brother slanderously as gossip (confession here, I like to jab at some folks online when debating, but I don't go about murdering anyone with my tongue offline. In fact, all of you - liberal or conservative are some of the finest folks in Pentecost.
- I'm faithful to my wife.
- I respect the property of others and I don't take what's not mine.
- I don't lie about people.
- And I try not to loose sight and become consumed with wanting what others might have. (I sincerely struggle here sometimes.)

Those are my spiritual objectives. Most of the time I do well and meet my objectives. But there have been times when I've broken every rule I've set out to keep at one point or another. I have faith that if I focus on those things and do my very best...the rest of it all will fall into place.

That's my path. I trust some of you have a different approach. Some of you might have a better approach. But I don't focus on the traditions of men so much anymore.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=Aquila;759493][QUOTE=jaxfam6;758964]

Aquila. I appreciate your posts. Are you a pastor?

No, and would never want to be.

Not all saints are the same. Some will never mature, but they will be saved. What that means is that some needs things spelled out, and others need space. Perhaps this brings more reason that the pastor should avoid, as much as possible, blanket theologies concerning distinctives, if he can just be more personal with the saints. We are all not the same... and each sheep needs to be guided accordingly. You're right, true sanctification happens when it isn't dictated. Pastors can help the congregation know what God likes and doesn't like through sound teaching, and then letting the congregation make the application. I've been accused of being an idealist, and maybe that's true.

I can agree with most of that. The place where I differ is only nit picky. I know you said that some will never "mature", but they will be saved. That raised a question for me... who judges when one has reached the full level possible for maturity in Christ? I'll admit, I'm not qualified to judge it. I can see that some saints appear more mature than others... but I can't tell if that immature saint, while appearing immature to me, is actually being the fullness of what "they" can be for God. I used to work with the handicapped. Sometimes they never could walk straight... but they were walking as straight as they could will all their might. I think that sin, genetics, circumstances, sorrow, grief, disappointments, and failures can "cripple" a person and leave them spiritually handicapped. They may spiritually walk with a limp for the rest of their lives, struggling with a sin, temptation, bad choices, loss, and depression... but in God's eyes maybe they are being all they can truly be for him. While here I sit making excuses for myself when I could truly do better. In that sense, they are far more perfect that me.

Just a thought that was rolling around in my tiny brain.

[OneAccord]

My only concern should be is on how to please the Lord. I learned along time ago that you never, EVER please people, no matter how hard you try, and no matter what you do. So, we should concern ourselves with but one thing, and that is to please the Lord. How do we do that, you ask? Simple. Follow Him. Thats it. Just follow Him.

I'll never be conservative enough. And I don't try. I just follow the Lord. And, thats been working pretty good for me. And, yes, it IS that simple.

[Sister Alvear]

I have learned we cannot please everyone but pleasing the Lord is the most important thing...

[GrowingPains]

[QUOTE=GrowingPains;759766][QUOTE=Aquila;759493]

No, and would never want to be.



I can agree with most of that. The place where I differ is only nit picky. I know you said that some will never "mature", but they will be saved. That raised a question for me... who judges when one has reached the full level possible for maturity in Christ? I'll admit, I'm not qualified to judge it. I can see that some saints appear more mature than others... but I can't tell if that immature saint, while appearing immature to me, is actually being the fullness of what "they" can be for God. I used to work with the handicapped. Sometimes they never could walk straight... but they were walking as straight as they could will all their might. I think that sin, genetics, circumstances, sorrow, grief, disappointments, and failures can "cripple" a person and leave them spiritually handicapped. They may spiritually walk with a limp for the rest of their lives, struggling with a sin, temptation, bad choices, loss, and depression... but in God's eyes maybe they are being all they can truly be for him. While here I sit making excuses for myself when I could truly do better. In that sense, they are far more perfect that me.

Just a thought that was rolling around in my tiny brain.

I guess my immature I'm referring to obvious Christians that are saved by always seem to mess up, get in trouble, make foolish decisions, etc... It's not being judgmental, it's just reality. I'm not the most seasoned either -- but by the grace of God, I'm growing and putting away the milk for the meat. Paul talked about immaturity when he said "when I was a child I spake as a child..."

[CC1]

Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:

How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?

Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?

Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?

So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?

How conservative is conservative enough? Easy! Steve Epley.

[Falla39]

My only concern should be is on how to please the Lord. I learned along time ago that you never, EVER please people, no matter how hard you try, and no matter what you do. So, we should concern ourselves with but one thing, and that is to please the Lord. How do we do that, you ask? Simple. Follow Him. Thats it. Just follow Him.

I'll never be conservative enough. And I don't try. I just follow the Lord. And, thats been working pretty good for me. And, yes, it IS that simple.

Great Post, Bro. OneAccord!

Falla39

[Timmy]

How conservative is conservative enough? Easy! Steve Epley.

:toofunny

[jaxfam6]

[QUOTE=jaxfam6;758964][QUOTE=Aquila;758906]

Thanks Jax. For some, living by religion's rules is easy because they don't have to think or pray about things. They just believe and do what is in the manual. However, for others this kind of religiosity stagnates and burns them out. I've learned that I didn't mature or grow in God until I ditched the man made rules and had to pray and think about things in light of Scripture, seeking answers... often on my own. Don't get me wrong, I make mistakes. It's often difficult trying to live for God according to the Spirit. Sometimes I feel like going back to the "mold" as I call it would be a lot easier. But there are times when me and Jesus sit and talk (He isn't UPCI by the way) and I wouldn't trade that for the world.

I hear you bro. Know exactly what you mean. Don't say it to loud that God is not UPC, might make some upset with ya. =)