View Full Version : Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Fa
RonMurray
07-12-2016, 12:12 PM
"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"
In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).
So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...
As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8.
good samaritan
07-12-2016, 12:55 PM
Amen!:highfive
mfblume
08-15-2016, 12:26 PM
"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"
In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).
So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...
As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8.
Amen. How could baptism be against grace when it's part of the gospel of grace and taught by Jesus himself? Lol. Grace came by Jesus and Jesus commanded baptism.
shazeep
08-15-2016, 01:24 PM
with fire, yes...
mfblume
08-16-2016, 09:10 AM
The Bible spoke of John noting the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost. The fire was the judgment that is akin to gathering up the chaff for burning, while wheat is put into barns. Then there is water baptism into Christ's death. We don't want the baptism of fire. Lol
shazeep
08-16-2016, 09:25 AM
hmm, i would say 'funny' but at this point that pov is completely understandable. At any rate, that is surely not what is meant in Scripture, and it seems most interpretations either conflate baptism with fire to the Holy Spirit, making the passage redundant, or more often,
"The phrase also occurs in Luke 3:16 and it might be taken as a reference to the fiery trial of faith which endures suffering and purifies the faithful who look upon God's glory and are transformed, not consumed (Mark 10:38, James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:7, 1 Peter 4:12)" and these are able to read the verses that bracket Matt 3:11 also, which do not use "fire" in relation to "baptism." We have plenty of other refs for "refining fire," as well."Baptism by fire" is a cliche, even.
but at any rate i have to agree that most people don't seem to want it lol. Gotta wonder if it is the same crowd that see their doom in fulfills the law and the prophets, huh. Anyway, we can start a new thread if we need to, let us know RM.
mfblume
08-20-2016, 06:54 AM
John the Baptist actually talked about fire of judgment in the very context he mentioned baptism of fire.
Several interpertations:
Barnes
With fire This expression has been variously understood. Some have supposed that John refers to the afflictions and persecutions with which men would be tried under the Gospel;
others, that the word “fire” means judgment or wrath. According to this latter interpretation, the meaning is that he would baptize a portion of mankind - those who were willing to be his followers - with the Holy Spirit, but the rest of mankind - the wicked - with fire; that is, with judgment and wrath. Fire is a symbol of vengeance. See Isa 5:24; Isa 61:2;Isa 66:24 (refs3). If this is the meaning, as seems to be probable, then John says that the ministry of the Messiah would be far more powerful than his was. It would be more searching and testing; and they who were not suited to abide the test would be cast into eternal fire.
Others have supposed, however, that by fire, here, John intends to express the idea that the preaching of the Messiah would be refining, powerful, purifying, as fire is sometimes an emblem of purity, Mal 3:2. It is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning further than that his ministry would be very trying, purifying, searching. Multitudes would be converted; and those who were not true penitents would not be able to abide the trial, and would be driven away.
Gill
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire; referring, either to the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, to be bestowed on the disciples on the day of Pentecost, of which the cloven tongues, like as of fire, which appeared unto them, and sat upon them, were the symbols; which was an instance of the great power and grace of Christ, and of his exaltation at the Father's right hand.
Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning"; the same with "the Holy Ghost and fire" here, or the fire of the Holy Ghost, or the holy Spirit of fire; and is the same with "the wrath to come", and with what is threatened in the context: the unfruitful trees shall be cut down, and cast into the fire", and the "chaff" shall be burnt with unquenchable fire". And as this sense best agrees with the context, it may the rather be thought to be genuine; since John is speaking not to the disciples of Christ, who were not yet called, and who only on the day of Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, in the other sense of this phrase; but to the people of the Jews, some of whom had been baptized by him; and others were asking him questions, others gazing upon him, and wondering what manner of person he was; and multitudes of them continued obdurate and impenitent under his ministry, whom he threatens severely in the context. Add to all this, that the phrase of dipping or baptizing in fire seems to be used in this sense by the Jewish writers. In the Talmud k one puts the question, In what does he (God,) dip? You will say in water, as it is written, "who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand?" Another replies, בנורא טביל, "he dips in fire"; as it is written, "for behold the Lord will come with fire". What is the meaning of טבילותא בנורא, "baptism in fire?" He answers, according to the mind of Rabbah, the root of "dipping in the fire", is what is written; "all that abideth not the fire, ye shall make go" through the water. Dipping in the fire of the law, is a phrase used by the Jews l. The phrases of "dipping, and washing in fire", are also used by Greek m authors.
mfblume
11-01-2016, 09:05 AM
So good, it needs to be posted again, even though it's only a few posts earlier.
"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"
In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).
So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...
As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8.
shazeep
11-01-2016, 09:50 AM
change your mind!
change your mind?
there is more than one kind!
shazeep
11-01-2016, 09:52 AM
John the Baptist actually talked about fire of judgment in the very context he mentioned baptism of fire.
Several interpertations:
Barnes
With fire This expression has been variously understood. Some have supposed that John refers to the afflictions and persecutions with which men would be tried under the Gospel;
others, that the word “fire” means judgment or wrath. According to this latter interpretation, the meaning is that he would baptize a portion of mankind - those who were willing to be his followers - with the Holy Spirit, but the rest of mankind - the wicked - with fire; that is, with judgment and wrath. Fire is a symbol of vengeance. See Isa 5:24; Isa 61:2;Isa 66:24 (refs3). If this is the meaning, as seems to be probable, then John says that the ministry of the Messiah would be far more powerful than his was. It would be more searching and testing; and they who were not suited to abide the test would be cast into eternal fire.
Others have supposed, however, that by fire, here, John intends to express the idea that the preaching of the Messiah would be refining, powerful, purifying, as fire is sometimes an emblem of purity, Mal 3:2. It is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning further than that his ministry would be very trying, purifying, searching. Multitudes would be converted; and those who were not true penitents would not be able to abide the trial, and would be driven away.
Gill
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire; referring, either to the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, to be bestowed on the disciples on the day of Pentecost, of which the cloven tongues, like as of fire, which appeared unto them, and sat upon them, were the symbols; which was an instance of the great power and grace of Christ, and of his exaltation at the Father's right hand.
Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning"; the same with "the Holy Ghost and fire" here, or the fire of the Holy Ghost, or the holy Spirit of fire; and is the same with "the wrath to come", and with what is threatened in the context: the unfruitful trees shall be cut down, and cast into the fire", and the "chaff" shall be burnt with unquenchable fire". And as this sense best agrees with the context, it may the rather be thought to be genuine; since John is speaking not to the disciples of Christ, who were not yet called, and who only on the day of Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, in the other sense of this phrase; but to the people of the Jews, some of whom had been baptized by him; and others were asking him questions, others gazing upon him, and wondering what manner of person he was; and multitudes of them continued obdurate and impenitent under his ministry, whom he threatens severely in the context. Add to all this, that the phrase of dipping or baptizing in fire seems to be used in this sense by the Jewish writers. In the Talmud k one puts the question, In what does he (God,) dip? You will say in water, as it is written, "who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand?" Another replies, בנורא טביל, "he dips in fire"; as it is written, "for behold the Lord will come with fire". What is the meaning of טבילותא בנורא, "baptism in fire?" He answers, according to the mind of Rabbah, the root of "dipping in the fire", is what is written; "all that abideth not the fire, ye shall make go" through the water. Dipping in the fire of the law, is a phrase used by the Jews l. The phrases of "dipping, and washing in fire", are also used by Greek m authors.use the water
to put out the fire
mfblume
11-05-2016, 11:48 AM
use the water
to put out the fire
In a sense, yes. But you formerly disagreed.
shazeep
11-05-2016, 11:53 AM
it only appears that way, MB.
mfblume
11-05-2016, 12:21 PM
it only appears that way, MB.
Here we go again. lol
shazeep
11-05-2016, 12:25 PM
Here we go again. lolya, how 'bout we stick to the issue at hand
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50258&page=4
mfblume
11-05-2016, 11:39 PM
You cried wolf too many times.
shazeep
11-06-2016, 07:04 AM
ok, but be careful, because i brought a witness, and you should watch your accusations imo.
I mean, do what you want, but i would do that with a Witness, not any other way.
mfblume
11-12-2016, 08:04 PM
ok, but be careful, because i brought a witness, and you should watch your accusations imo.
I mean, do what you want, but i would do that with a Witness, not any other way.
Your witnesses are made-up symbols from the bible taken out of context. You want to talk bible? Explain how Matt 7's word to love others as we would have them love us, can save us without nary a thought about the cross He died on for our sins.
KeptByTheWord
11-12-2016, 08:50 PM
Knowing who Jesus is alone, won't be enough. We can say we know who he is, as Peter did. But then if we deny the work of the cross, it is then he must cast us out. Peter was first blessed by Jesus because he recognized who Jesus was. But then when he denied his death, read below the words Jesus had for him!
Bro. Blume pointed this out earlier in another thread, I am just sharing the scripture here.
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
RonMurray
01-31-2017, 06:55 PM
Amen. How could baptism be against grace when it's part of the gospel of grace and taught by Jesus himself? Lol. Grace came by Jesus and Jesus commanded baptism.
Yes, exactly. Thank You. \0/
If salvation is by grace, and baptism is part of the plan of salvation, then it only stands to reason that baptism is by grace.
Sorry I took so long to reply. I hadn't been on here in a long time.
RonMurray
01-31-2017, 07:03 PM
with fire, yes...
Absolutely. Amen, brother. 🔥
RonMurray
01-31-2017, 07:20 PM
The Bible spoke of John noting the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost. The fire was the judgment that is akin to gathering up the chaff for burning, while wheat is put into barns. Then there is water baptism into Christ's death. We don't want the baptism of fire. Lol
That was two different fires mentioned there. We could either believe and receive Jesus and be baptized by the fire of the Holy Spirit, or reject Jesus and be baptized by hell fire. There's a contrast between the two there.
But we can see that John the Baptist's message was repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit, just like it says in Acts 2:38.
I don't knoiw how many Apostolics got this, but I want to share this. Notice how John the Baptist said, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord". And he said that he baptizes unto repentance, but that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The Holy Spirit wasn't given yet, but he preaced repentance and baptized people. It hit me one day that that's what he was talking about when he said, "prepare ye the way of the Lord". He was talking about repenting and being baptized to prepare ourselves to receive the Holy Spirit, to prepare the way for the Spirit of the Lord to come and fill us.
RonMurray
01-31-2017, 07:27 PM
So good, it needs to be posted again, even though it's only a few posts earlier.
The glory goes to God. \0/
Thank you for appreciating the message. The Lord blkess you richly in Christ Jesus.
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