Need advice on leaving

[Pente3]

I go to a upc church and have been there approx 7 years. We have been involved in the music the whole time but have been in actual music leadership about 5 years. We have learned a lot of lessons good and bad while we've been at this church. We (my spouse and myself) are both conservative and grew up in conservative churches. A little while after we got married, we moved away from where we grew up and decided to find a church closer to our new home. We visited around a couple times and were very sold on the church we now attend. The pastor is young and and vibrant, lots of vision, preaches amazing and it was a great opportunity to help him grow his church (he has been pastor 11 years) and allow us to grow in our musical dreams as well.

Fast forward several years later and we find ourselves in a bad spot. We often hear people's personal situations being told over the pulpit, no names mentioned but we all know who / why /what and when usually. Many times people are bullied into doing events or anything to do with the church, the pastor and his family. I don't know how to speak of it in a very positive manner without tearing the pastor/pastor's family down. I pray that this is taken in seriousness, not bitterness and anger. We've realized that there has been very clear dishonesty to us, about us and situations have been twisted and turned for the benefit of leadership (pastor). Even to the point of the leaders telling us something very clearly then getting in church service and saying over the pulpit that the very thing they told us (others too) was a rumor - that they never said it. ?!?!?!?! It hit me in the gut. Then, it seemed like it continued to happen and eventually it's gotten us to the point that we feel like we're losing our minds. We have actually apologized for issues that we didn't even cause or have anything to do with, all because they will not apologize or admit the truth. We have literally poured out everything we have, time, money, emotion, love, giftings to the church and music ministry and it's never good enough. I was once told it wasn't "Disney fireworks" and that it needed to be. I feel for the people cause I know they are all volunteering hours and days of their precious time to practice to only leave beatdown by the pastor/family. It hurts so so much. 9 families have left in the last 2 years.

A personal example, I was asked to decorate a wall and I said I could not afford to do so, but I wouldn't mind helping another person with it. That night, it was said over the pulpit that "someone" argued about doing this very thing. I'm just in utter shock at how these things keep coming about. I am emotionally beat down. My family leads the music (we are not paid, we are volunteers) yet the leaders do not even communicate to us about when to set special practice times. Practice times/dates were set and it turned out to be a night that I could not take off from work. This situation turned into a "teaching point" once again that we do not take God or church as imporant ... mind you, we are VOLUNTEERS and have to work to survive. I'm afraid this is affecting my marriage, my children and their perspective of leadership.

I'm struggling because I can't imagine that my leaders could even do these things. It's just not something I'd ever expect. To be honest, both sets of our parents have urged us to leave and seek a safe place. Our minister friends and family have urged us to be cautious, pray and leave as soon as possible. Our issue is that the pastor has told us we CAN'T leave. He's told us we're not going anywhere. We are planning to end out this year with a meeting face to face and let him know we feel it's time to move on and seek out where God can give us restoration etc.

My question - I do not want to ruin any reputation that I have and any future music endeavors. But obviously, my family and sanity are much more important than even that right now. Have you or anyone you know legitamately been in this situation? We've searched our hearts and have no ill will or any bitterness, we just feel it's best to cut ties. I need advice on how to handle a very tough meeting with a pastor that will try to guilt or possibly tell us we can't go. Our mind is set and we know it's God nudging us to leave. It's also common sense.

I need advice on how to handle the meeting. Please help! Thanks.

[allstate1]

Is this for real?

[KeptByTheWord]

There have been plenty of similar stories of situations like this shared on this forum. The advice you will get here, in this post/thread will be varied and in the end, you must turn to the LORD for guidance in how to deal with this situation. You must pray, fast, do whatever it takes and spend time in prayer with your family together, and ask the Lord how best to handle this.

Everyone on here will offer you an opinion on what you should do. I could too. Because I have been in a similar situation such as yours. But I won't, because I found that the opinions of men don't count. This is a time, when like never before, you need to turn to THE LORD for your guidance and direction, and not to the opinions of men.

Jesus is your kind shepherd and loves your family, and you know what, the Lord loves the pastor and his family too, despite all their shenanigans.

Leaving is not wrong, but if you leave with bitterness and malice, that would be hurtful and harmful most to you. Pray for the pastor and his family, and the situation there, and ask the Lord to bless them, and give you direction as how to handle it.

The LORD will not let you down, of that I can promise you with full assurance!

In Jesus Name I will be praying for you and your family that the Lord directs you where He wants you to be!

[Amanah]

sounds like you need a vacation and some relaxation, doing something fun and enjoyable with your family.

learn to just smile and say *no, I can't do that, sorry*

[shazeep]

i was gonna say, ya. call him up, this pastor, today, and say you have a family emergency, which you do, and you won't be in to church this Sunday, apologies. and you won't be in any Sunday's after that, either, sorry. If you think you'll get resistance, leave it on the recorder after business hours. best of luck

[Pente3]

Why would you ask that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Why would you ask that?

What is the Lord Jesus Christ telling you and your husband through all of this?

Allow me to explain.

It seems odd to some of us, including myself that people would air out dirty laundry or ask such advise from a forum. Don't get me wrong, forums are built that way. People feel comfortable and relaxed when they have an alias they are posting under. Yet, they flesh out their skeleton to such a degree, that anyone close to their situation would recognize it is them posting. Now, what you did say is that your hesitation for leaving is the worry you might not be able to get a singing gig in any other UP churches, if you left the wrong way? If this is in fact the case you might want to think about who puts people in that position anyway. From what it sounds like, you already know full well what you perceive to be going on. So, therefore you aren't really going crazy. If the situation is a gas light issue you have already broken the hold. Now, you just have to pray for an open door. You and your husband keep it to yourselves, and stop (from what it looks like to me) counseling saints who have come to you both with questions? All that really does is stir the stink, and when the boat finally capsizes and everyone is in the water, you and your husband don't sound like you are going to invite them into your lifeboat. Meaning you don't have Home Missions at the end of your tunnel. It is a sticky situation, which just ends up super bad if not handled properly by YOU two. What is the Lord Jesus Christ telling you through all of this? That is what you and your husband need to find out, and it won't be here on THIS forum. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Pente3 I will be praying for you, your husband, the pastor, and the saints in your church family.

[LOVE JESUS]

We live in a free country. NO Pastor or leader should be able to tell someone they can't leave. We still have the freedom to come and go as we please. AFF members these people need encouragment not put down for asking for help on here. Most organizational leaders are good friends with fellow pastors, so you may have to go to another denomination so you won't be ostersized. I would leave - not run down the church or pastor and let God handle it. It may take a while but it will all come out in the wash. If you go to a small church, that pastor WILL be glad to have a faithful tithe paying member and will probably use you more than you can handle. I think you need a rest first. This is a stressful situtation. Just make sure you stay in church somewhere.

[Jermyn Davidson]

It is time for you to move on.

Your ministry to your family is more important than your ministry to your church.

When you do move, do not expect to be held in the same place of esteem as you are now. Don't look for that. Embrace what is genuinely important and remain humble so the Lord will lift you up.

[allstate1]

I have been in similar situation. I would leave without explanations or meetings. Just go and go fast. You have put a pastor in a position in your life that never should be.

[Pente3]

I see exactly what you're saying. I had no intention of putting anyone out on the stage to be made a spectacle. Pardon my ignorance as this is new to me and my husband and we've never encountered anything so much as like this before or even imagined that we would. We have not "counseled" any families or anyone else. Our families and minister friends that have come have actually come to us and counseled US. We found this alarming as we were already feeling like something wasn't right. We've never given any details or even spoke ill of him, we were just quiet and asked for prayer and direction. I appreciate you responding. We've been praying and fasting more than we have in our lives. We want what's best and we want to be gracious and loving but at the same time protect ourselves. I ask for continual prayer.

[KeptByTheWord]

I see exactly what you're saying. I had no intention of putting anyone out on the stage to be made a spectacle. Pardon my ignorance as this is new to me and my husband and we've never encountered anything so much as like this before or even imagined that we would. We have not "counseled" any families or anyone else. Our families and minister friends that have come have actually come to us and counseled US. We found this alarming as we were already feeling like something wasn't right. We've never given any details or even spoke ill of him, we were just quiet and asked for prayer and direction. I appreciate you responding. We've been praying and fasting more than we have in our lives. We want what's best and we want to be gracious and loving but at the same time protect ourselves. I ask for continual prayer.

Will definitely continue praying for you. It is a tough sticky situation, but the Lord is able to help you through it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I see exactly what you're saying. I had no intention of putting anyone out on the stage to be made a spectacle. Pardon my ignorance as this is new to me and my husband and we've never encountered anything so much as like this before or even imagined that we would. We have not "counseled" any families or anyone else. Our families and minister friends that have come have actually come to us and counseled US. We found this alarming as we were already feeling like something wasn't right. We've never given any details or even spoke ill of him, we were just quiet and asked for prayer and direction. I appreciate you responding. We've been praying and fasting more than we have in our lives. We want what's best and we want to be gracious and loving but at the same time protect ourselves. I ask for continual prayer.

Great, you already have the answer, and the perfect plan.

I pray that the Lord Jesus will guide you both perfectly.

The Lord bless you both in Jesus name. :thumbsup

[Praxeas]

I go to a upc church and have been there approx 7 years. We have been involved in the music the whole time but have been in actual music leadership about 5 years. We have learned a lot of lessons good and bad while we've been at this church. We (my spouse and myself) are both conservative and grew up in conservative churches. A little while after we got married, we moved away from where we grew up and decided to find a church closer to our new home. We visited around a couple times and were very sold on the church we now attend. The pastor is young and and vibrant, lots of vision, preaches amazing and it was a great opportunity to help him grow his church (he has been pastor 11 years) and allow us to grow in our musical dreams as well.

Fast forward several years later and we find ourselves in a bad spot. We often hear people's personal situations being told over the pulpit, no names mentioned but we all know who / why /what and when usually. Many times people are bullied into doing events or anything to do with the church, the pastor and his family. I don't know how to speak of it in a very positive manner without tearing the pastor/pastor's family down. I pray that this is taken in seriousness, not bitterness and anger. We've realized that there has been very clear dishonesty to us, about us and situations have been twisted and turned for the benefit of leadership (pastor). Even to the point of the leaders telling us something very clearly then getting in church service and saying over the pulpit that the very thing they told us (others too) was a rumor - that they never said it. ?!?!?!?! It hit me in the gut. Then, it seemed like it continued to happen and eventually it's gotten us to the point that we feel like we're losing our minds. We have actually apologized for issues that we didn't even cause or have anything to do with, all because they will not apologize or admit the truth. We have literally poured out everything we have, time, money, emotion, love, giftings to the church and music ministry and it's never good enough. I was once told it wasn't "Disney fireworks" and that it needed to be. I feel for the people cause I know they are all volunteering hours and days of their precious time to practice to only leave beatdown by the pastor/family. It hurts so so much. 9 families have left in the last 2 years.

A personal example, I was asked to decorate a wall and I said I could not afford to do so, but I wouldn't mind helping another person with it. That night, it was said over the pulpit that "someone" argued about doing this very thing. I'm just in utter shock at how these things keep coming about. I am emotionally beat down. My family leads the music (we are not paid, we are volunteers) yet the leaders do not even communicate to us about when to set special practice times. Practice times/dates were set and it turned out to be a night that I could not take off from work. This situation turned into a "teaching point" once again that we do not take God or church as imporant ... mind you, we are VOLUNTEERS and have to work to survive. I'm afraid this is affecting my marriage, my children and their perspective of leadership.

I'm struggling because I can't imagine that my leaders could even do these things. It's just not something I'd ever expect. To be honest, both sets of our parents have urged us to leave and seek a safe place. Our minister friends and family have urged us to be cautious, pray and leave as soon as possible. Our issue is that the pastor has told us we CAN'T leave. He's told us we're not going anywhere. We are planning to end out this year with a meeting face to face and let him know we feel it's time to move on and seek out where God can give us restoration etc.

My question - I do not want to ruin any reputation that I have and any future music endeavors. But obviously, my family and sanity are much more important than even that right now. Have you or anyone you know legitamately been in this situation? We've searched our hearts and have no ill will or any bitterness, we just feel it's best to cut ties. I need advice on how to handle a very tough meeting with a pastor that will try to guilt or possibly tell us we can't go. Our mind is set and we know it's God nudging us to leave. It's also common sense.

I need advice on how to handle the meeting. Please help! Thanks.
LEAVE! That is a very unhealthy church.

[Amanah]

LEAVE! That is a very unhealthy church.

:highfive

[aegsm76]

With what has been presented here, this would be my advice.
1. Pray
2. Pray
3. Make up a definitive list of non-biblical problems/issues that are causing you to doubt the leadership. Make sure they are specific. If the church records services/sermons, get a copy.
4. After the above, if you decide to move on, have a one-on-one meeting with the pastor, this is assuming you are the husband posting this. Lay out your concerns, list your specific examples and listen to his responses.
5. If you move on, pray for this church and the pastor. Do not respond to people who want you to tell them why you left.
6. In my opinion, if you find a new church to attend, you will need to meet with that pastor and tell him the reasons you left the old church.
God bless.

[Amanah]

there is NOTHING more important then the souls of your children, if you are in an abusive situation, will they want to attend church when they are adults?

[MawMaw]

If everything is as you say, I'd definitely take my family and
find another church. Praying for you all!

[Sister Alvear]

praying for you to find the way....

[Sherri]

Praying for you!! As pastors, it's always hard to lose someone. But when a pastor moves from giving you a choice to manipulating you into staying, he is wrong.
I think you can leave in a kind way. Don't talk badly about your leadership if you leave - I'm sure God had you there for a season and I'm sure there were good times and things that you learned. Try to focus on those things, especially with your family.
But I think if you stay, you will continue to become more confused and eventually bitter, unless there is a chance that things will drastically change.
Ultimately the decision is between you, your husband, and God. But whatever you hear as an answer from God, do not live in condemnation. Move forward and do the work of the Lord! Leave it to Him to fight the battles.

[LOVE JESUS]

Praying for you!! As pastors, it's always hard to lose someone. But when a pastor moves from giving you a choice to manipulating you into staying, he is wrong.
I think you can leave in a kind way. Don't talk badly about your leadership if you leave - I'm sure God had you there for a season and I'm sure there were good times and things that you learned. Try to focus on those things, especially with your family.
But I think if you stay, you will continue to become more confused and eventually bitter, unless there is a chance that things will drastically change.
Ultimately the decision is between you, your husband, and God. But whatever you hear as an answer from God, do not live in condemnation. Move forward and do the work of the Lord! Leave it to Him to fight the battles.

Good response. My husband has a motto: God first
Family second
Third the church
You have to do what you feel is best for those children that God has given you.
Some one I know is going through the same thing right now - not pastor manipulation but pastor making wrong choices for the youth plus some other things. He has talked with pastor at least 3 times but no changes, so he is looking for another church all because of the spiritual welfare of his teenage children. He is in a Spirit filled church - not UPC - wouldn't make any difference either way. He has been in this church for many years - children dedicated here and later baptized there. It is not an easy decision but a necessary one.

[houston]

Grief. I think I used to attend this church.

[mfblume]

Excellent advice on leaving a church is in the book A TALE OF THREE KINGS by Gene Edwards.

[votivesoul]

Just a thought:

It's not leaving a church, it's disfellowshipping a group of saints.

There is one Body, right? You would, presumably, reach out to a new group of saints, and begin meeting with them, right?

So, you're not leaving the Church, which is the Body, but are leaving the saints.

That being the question, can you handle, not leaving a church, but leaving behind the saints that belong to your assembly?

How many relationships there are precious to you? Are you prepared to lose everyone of them? Because, if what you say is true, you will lose just about every friend and close brother or sister you have.

Are you ready for the smear campaign? Disfellowshipping a group of saints in a situation like you've described is not easy. The aftermath is UGLY.

I don't say that to discourage, but rather, COUNT THE COST.

I was in a situation not too unlike you're in. We left and began meeting with other saints of God. The garbage that got said, the rumors and gossip, accusations and slander, and everything else was very hard to take.

My own flesh and blood brother, who I won to the Lord, and ministered to in countless ways for many years, dropped me and told me he didn't want to see me or spend any time with me or my family outside of holidays and family birthdays.

When I asked him why, he said it was because he wasn't sure if I was okay. When I pressed him why on that, he said it was because I no longer go to his church.

See what I mean?

If you guys leave, no matter how you do it, you're about to walk into a tornado. God can and will get you through, I promise! If He instructs you to leave, then He has asked you to pick up this cross and endure the pain of it all. But all for the purpose, for your perfecting, and HIS GLORY.

Peace,

Aaron

[votivesoul]

Another thought.

Pastors are not a protected class. Jerks are jerks. Stubborn, hard-headed, angry, won't listen to nobody, doesn't answer to anyone suit and tie talking heads create their own bad reputation. Simply speaking the facts is not "talking bad" about the leadership. The onus is on them to be blameless and of good report toward them outside the church.

And many do remain blameless and of good report toward them outside the church, but not as they deserve it by earning it through trust, commitment, and love, but because people refuse to speak up and say it like it is.

When is a spade not a spade? When the spade is a "pastor".

Look in Scripture. Prophets of God condemned to their faces in front of everyone so-called leaders (in some cases kings!) in Israel and Judah who were supposed to be shepherding God's flock, but instead were abusing God's children.

We ought not hesitate to call a situation and those involved, as it is. If you leave and someone asks why, tell them straight up. Sugar-coating it with vague, quasi-spiritualized mumbo jumbo about sensing a new direction from God, and etc., isn't the truth. You left (if you leave) because the pastor was a crank who ought not to be overseeing the flock of God.

Of course, do as you believe is right. Who am I, but a faceless stranger banging away at some keys at a computer?

[Originalist]

There must be 50 ways to leave your Pastor....

Just slip out the back,Jack. Make a new plan, Stan. You don't need to be coy, Roy. Just listen to me. Hop on the bus,Gus. You don't need to discuss much. Just drop off the key, Lee. And get yourself free.

[Evang.Benincasa]

There must be 50 ways to leave your Pastor....

Just slip out the back,Jack. Make a new plan, Stan. You don't need to be coy, Roy. Just listen to me. Hop on the bus,Gus. You don't need to discuss much. Just drop off the key, Lee. And get yourself free.

Sadly most time, which seems like a good plan to leave, fortified with great reasons, only seems to end up being an endless journey to a pit.

[CC1]

Sadly most time, which seems like a good plan to leave, fortified with great reasons, only seems to end up being an endless journey to a pit.

It is a journey to a pit bbq place then that can be a good thing!

[good samaritan]

Strife sometimes makes it a necessity to leave. It is better to leave and receive healing and restoration than for things to fester and get worse. I think people should always give the other person the benefit of the doubt, but confront the issues in a Christian manner. (Don't leave things up to the imagination). If problems have been discussed in a Christ like manner and there is no reconciliation then for me it would mean a change of venue (How can 2 walk together unless they agree).

As we journey ahead, we must leave the past behind (no grudges). We must forgive to be forgiven.

[votivesoul]

Strife sometimes makes it a necessity to leave. It is better to leave and receive healing and restoration than for things to fester and get worse. I think people should always give the other person the benefit of the doubt, but confront the issues in a Christian manner. (Don't leave things up to the imagination). If problems have been discussed in a Christ like manner and there is no reconciliation then for me it would mean a change of venue (How can 2 walk together unless they agree).

As we journey ahead, we must leave the past behind (no grudges). We must forgive to be forgiven.

This is truth.