Power Evangelism, according to Jesus

[Esaias]

Feel free to critique both the style and content of this short informational tract I have written on the subject of witnessing.

[Esaias]

Seven Principles of Power Evangelism
as demonstrated by the
Lord JESUS CHRIST

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. And he must needs go through Samaria. (John 4:1-4 KJV)


Whoever desires to witness successfully should study the example of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Master of supernatural evangelism. In the fourth chapter of John's gospel, we read of the time when Jesus went through Samaria and ministered to a woman at a well. This affords us an excellent opportunity to see the Lord engaging in Holy Ghost empowered witnessing, and to learn from His example certain principles that we can apply in our own endeavors. Take the time to read the chapter from verse 1 to verse 43, and once that is done, be prepared for a crash course in “Biblical Power Evangelism.”


I. The first thing we notice is that Jesus was divinely guided to this encounter. He determined to go to Galilee, because of the situation that had developed with the Pharisees. His time had not yet come for confrontation with the religious authorities. Providence, by the hand of God, had dictated the circumstances that required Him to travel a certain direction. 'He must needs go through Samaria'. God knew that there was a woman in Samaria, who would respond positively to the Gospel. He comes to a well. He is wearied from traveling, and lo and behold, an opportunity for refreshment is there, as if by divine appointment! But, he has no bucket. He has no way to draw water from this well. Jesus, however, is not a pessimist. He does not see this as a sore trial, as if God led Him to a place to taunt Him with impossibilities. He had sent His disciples away into the city to buy food. It is as if He knew that He was there to meet someone, someone whom the disciples would have interfered with. He knew that the only ones likely to show up at the well would be women, and His disciples would likely try to keep Samaritan women away from their Lord lest He be 'defiled' by contact with such outcasts. For, 'Jews have no dealings with Samaritans', least of all Samaritan women. But this encounter is no ordinary encounter. It is a God directed encounter between the Saviour and a sinner woman who is about to encounter divine grace for the first time. Everything about this meeting is arranged by God. Jesus was given opportunity to witness, and to witness in the power of the Spirit, by the supernatural direction of God. How did He do this? How could Jesus rely on such Providential arrangements? As He would later explain to his disciples, His 'food' was to 'do the will of Him that sent Me.' In other words, He was wholly consecrated to doing the will of God. Food is what you require to live, it is your nourishment, it is what sustains you and gives you strength. What sustained the Lord Jesus was doing the will of the Father. That was His food, His nourishment, the very thing He lived by. And it was not just the general will of God that He was committed to doing. Oh no, much more than that. It was 'the will of Him that sent Me.' He knew He was on a mission from God, and His purpose, his food as it were, was to accomplish that mission. He was focused on doing His divinely appointed job, which was to seek and to save that which was lost. Because of His total consecration to fulfilling the Father's specific will for His life, He was blessed with divine guidance to be at the right place, at the right time, to meet the right persons, with the right message, and see the right results. Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” Total consecration to the will of God, acknowledging the Lord in everything one does, results in divine guidance and direction. So the first principle is total consecration to the specific will of God, which will bring about divine direction, being led by the Spirit of God.

II. The next thing we notice is that the Lord spoke to the woman first. He engaged her. He did not wait for her to engage Him. He took her arrival as being a sign that the Father wanted Him to minister to her, so there was no need for Him to 'wait and see if she will give a sign she is the one God wants me to witness to, by speaking first' or any similar thing. Rather, having been consecrated to the Divine Mission, and trusting completely in God, He took the encounter for what it was – God-directed and God-appointed. This was it. So He begins a conversation with her. He engages her. But notice, he did not engage her by blurting out 'Are you searching for the kingdom of God and total fulfillment in life?' Rather, He began by speaking with her on a common ground. He found common ground. He was thirsty, here was a well, they were both there, she had a bucket, so He asks her to get Him some water. He treats her as if she were one of His own people. He was not afraid to break cultural taboos created by the traditions of men. He showed her that He was not like everyone else she had known, He was not going to judge her as less honourable or not worthy of speaking to just because of some cultural issues between Jews and Samaritans. This of course took her off guard, it surprised her. But what He asked of her was perfectly normal, not out of the ordinary. He was not being 'weird'. What was strange was WHO was asking her. Just as if a well-dressed respectable looking man were to engage a homeless person in conversation about the weather, or to ask him for directions. It would not be what was said that would be considered out of the ordinary, but who was saying it. Folks are attracted to people who are willing to find common ground with them, especially when it is 'just something not usually done. When they see that you are willing to cross the tracks to meet them where they are, without judging them or condemning them or looking down on them in condescension, they are far more likely to hear what you have to say. So the second principle is be proactive and engage who you meet on common ground regardless of who they are or their station in life.

III. The third thing we see in our Lord's example is that in the course of His conversation with her He hints at spiritual matters. She had asked Him why He was asking her for some water, since Jews had no dealings with Samaritans, and He redirects the conversation onto more spiritual matters. And He does this in particular way. First, He uses the current situation – wanting some water, and asking for it – as a springboard to mentioning 'living water'. She had asked Him how it is that He was asking her for water, because of who she thought He was, but He hints that He was someone more than she suspected. He mentions 'the gift of God', and suggests that if she had known these things she would ask for living water from Him. In other words, He took the existing circumstances and found a spiritual parallel, and hinted at these spiritual realities to gauge her reaction. Her curiosity is piqued, she wants to know just who He thinks He is. He then becomes more bold, and says whoever drinks of the water He offers will never thirst again but will have eternal life. He knew He could press the conversation deeper into more spiritual matters because she was willing to talk to Him about these things. She did not just say 'Oh, you must be a crazy man, I need to be on my way.' She did not respond with an attitude of 'This is too strange, I don't have time for this, I have more important things to do.' No, she was interested. There was something inside of her, that had caused her to be prepared to hear the Gospel, though she herself was unaware of what was happening. And because she expressed a willingness to continue the conversation, and was genuinely interested in what she was hearing, Jesus pressed on. So the third principle is determine spiritual interest by directing the conversation to spiritual matters.

IV. Next we discover that, having found her to be receptive to spiritual things, and expressing a desire for spiritual blessings - namely eternal life through the 'living water' of the Holy Ghost - Jesus then calls for a commitment. He tells her 'Go and bring your husband.' He calls for some action, asking her to 'put her money where her mouth is' so to say. He tests just how serious she was when she said 'give me this living water'. She has had a remarkable conversation with a man, and would now have to go back into town and get her husband, convince him to come see this strange man, and walk back to the well. The strange man might be gone, and she might be a laughing stock. But Jesus wants to see if she is serious about this. He tests just how serious she is when she says 'give me this living water'. If she leaves to get her 'husband', will Jesus even be there when she returns? Will her 'husband' not then say she was crazy? Would she even be able to convince him to come see this guy in the first place? Many people like to talk about eternal life, spiritual matters, God, the Bible, and so forth. But how many are serious enough about the subject to put forth some effort, to go ahead and DO what Jesus said to do? How serious are they? So the fourth principle is challenge to a commitment.

[Esaias]

V. But that is not all. She expresses a desire to have eternal life, but the Lord does not immediately give it to her. There was some unfinished business that needed to be addressed - the business of sin. So the commitment that Jesus asks of her, asking her to do something, reveals the sin in her life. She has had multiple husbands, and is currently shacked up with someone to whom she is not married. And this is revealed to Jesus by the Spirit of God. The woman is amazed, and confesses 'thou art a prophet'. Jesus had access to supernaturally provided information, and His words were supernaturally directed to have an impact. He was relying on the power of the Holy Ghost to not only lead Him to this encounter, but to give Him the right words to say at the right time, to do whatever was necessary to demonstrate to this woman that this was no ordinary conversation, but an encounter with the power of the living God. Isaiah 50:4-5 says “The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.” Jesus knew that the anointing of the Holy Ghost enabled Him to speak words of life, exactly what the woman needed to hear at that moment. The Lord's encounter with the woman led to the whole town hearing about Him. Many people came to see Him, and concluded that He was indeed the Messiah. His being led by the Spirit to minister to this one woman led to many others having an encounter with Him. If we are led by the Spirit, one encounter can produce a cascading effect whereby many others experience and believe in the Lord. The impact on that one person's life is often enough to impact others. She became a witness, because she was telling everyone about her encounter with the Messiah, which drew them to investigate and ultimately to believe. He was operating in the power of the Spirit, and this promise is available to believers as well. The Lord promised His disciples that they would receive power after that the Holy Ghost was come upon them, and they would be clothed with power from on high, and be His witnesses. So the fifth principle is expect the power of God to empower you to witness.

VI. But He did not leave the sin issue unaddressed. He did not merely bask in the knowledge that the Spirit had exposed her sinful condition. Rather, He confronted her sin with grace. He had spoken to her about living water and eternal life, and had made it clear that He could give it to her, and He also made it clear that He knew her moral and spiritual condition. Yet He continued talking to her. He did not allow her sin to stand between Him and her. Sin must be confronted, but it must be confronted with grace, in a loving way. Sinners are not to be looked down upon as though we must avoid them. After all, we were sinners, too. But the grace of God came into our lives, so that we could not only be saved from our sin but also take that grace and salvation to others who need it as much as we do. The sixth principle is confront sin with grace.

VII. During the conversation, she attempted to avoid the sin issue by redirecting the talk to matters of general religion. She has a religious question concerning a point of doctrinal dispute between the Jews and Samaritans. Many will do this when things are getting a little too close to home. They ask, “What about infant baptism?” Or, “Will there be a pre-tribulation rapture?” Or some other point of religious controversy. Anything BUT “What do I do about my sin?” The flesh, the carnal nature, loves to talk religion as long as one's personal sin and responsibility to God is not the immediate subject matter. Jesus does not fall into the trap. He answers her question but points out the immediate issue, namely that she is not in fact worshipping God as God desires. He brings the conversation back to what's important – her personal relation to the Father. She says she believes that Messiah is to come. She was getting closer to the main thing – who is Christ? And Jesus points out to her that He is indeed Christ. So the seventh principle is stay focused on the important issue of 'Who is Christ to YOU?'

Conclusion:
When the disciples returned from town and found Him talking to this Samaritan woman, they wanted to know why He was bothering with this woman, though they were afraid to ask. When she left to go tell everyone what had happened to her, they offered Him some food but He said 'I have meat to eat that you don't know about.' So they wondered if someone had brought Him food while they were gone. And the Lord then explained to them that His food was 'to do the will of Him that sent Me, and to finish the work.' He then told them to look out on the fields, and see that they were ready for harvest. And finally, He tells them that He had sent them into a work that had begun before they arrived. He was on a mission, and they were, too. In fact, they were on the same mission - to proclaim the Gospel and gather 'fruit unto eternal life', which is to say, gather people into the Kingdom of God. So just as He was entirely consecrated to fulfilling His mission, they should be also. Just as His evangelistic mission of spreading grace and truth to all was His very food, it should be ours as well. We should have that same consecration to the great and glorious work of God. And we should have that same power of the Holy Ghost to enable us to do our part. We should be led just as He was led to supernatural encounters with those whom God has appointed to hear the Glad Tidings. And we should expect the same Spirit that was operating in His life to operate in ours. The Scripture says, “Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.” (Psalms 37:3-6) Notice, it says if we trust in the Lord, and do good – that is, we do the will of God – then truly we 'shall be fed'. What is our food? To do the will of God and finish His work. IF we trust in the Lord and commit ourselves to His will and His work, we 'shall be fed', we shall indeed be put to work, sent forth by the Lord of the harvest into the fields. We must be sent in order to expect the Power and Providence of God to work with us. And in order to be sent, we must be consecrated to that work, it must be our 'food'. And if we are totally consecrated to it, we will be fed. We will be put forth into the work, and we will be led, and empowered by the Spirit of God.

Pray for success: For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; (Colossians 1

[Esaias]

This was written based off my notes for a teaching message on John chapter four. There was a lot of material in the teaching that is not here - this is essentially a first draft of a short info-tract. Some things I suspect that might need to be included or fleshed out a bit more:

The power of God for witnessing goes beyond just being in the right spot meeting the right person, saying the right words. It includes WHATEVER needs to be dealt with by the Spirit, whether revelation knowledge, healing, miracle, or whatever it may be.

The fact that we ought to walk as He also walked, which applies not just to our morals and ethics but also our witnessing. If He walked in the power of God, we ought to as well. If He was daily guided by supernatural guidance we ought to be as well.

Him being guided does not seem to be so much a matter of Him hearing a voice in His head saying 'go here, meet this person, say this to them,' etc. But a lot of it seemed to be simply His ability to recognise providence and God's manipulation of events and circumstances towards certain ends. In fact, not so much His ability to 'recognise' things but maybe more His faith and trust that God was indeed directing things. After all, without faith it is impossible to please God...

[Jermyn Davidson]

Paragraph I. Who guided Jesus? Who was His "divine guide"?

Paragraph V. describes Jesus in terms that emphasizes His distinction from the Father and Holy Spirit that does not sound like Oneness Godhead doctrine.

[Esaias]

Paragraph I. Who guided Jesus? Who was His "divine guide"?

Seriously? I cannot think of a single professing Christian, from ANY denominational or non denominational background, with the exception of spiritists and new-agers, who would wonder 'who guided Jesus, who was his divine guide'. Besides which, the section makes clear - 'divine guide' by definition means GOD IS GUIDING. It also says this: " Providence, by the hand of God, had dictated the circumstances that required Him to travel a certain direction." And, "It is a God directed encounter between the Saviour and a sinner woman who is about to encounter divine grace for the first time. Everything about this meeting is arranged by God. Jesus was given opportunity to witness, and to witness in the power of the Spirit, by the supernatural direction of God." And, "How could Jesus rely on such Providential arrangements?" Not sure how you missed that...

Paragraph V. describes Jesus in terms that emphasizes His distinction from the Father and Holy Spirit that does not sound like Oneness Godhead doctrine.

Here it is in full:

V. But that is not all. She expresses a desire to have eternal life, but the Lord does not immediately give it to her. There was some unfinished business that needed to be addressed - the business of sin. So the commitment that Jesus asks of her, asking her to do something, reveals the sin in her life. She has had multiple husbands, and is currently shacked up with someone to whom she is not married. And this is revealed to Jesus by the Spirit of God. The woman is amazed, and confesses 'thou art a prophet'. Jesus had access to supernaturally provided information, and His words were supernaturally directed to have an impact. He was relying on the power of the Holy Ghost to not only lead Him to this encounter, but to give Him the right words to say at the right time, to do whatever was necessary to demonstrate to this woman that this was no ordinary conversation, but an encounter with the power of the living God. Isaiah 50:4-5 says “The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.” Jesus knew that the anointing of the Holy Ghost enabled Him to speak words of life, exactly what the woman needed to hear at that moment. The Lord's encounter with the woman led to the whole town hearing about Him. Many people came to see Him, and concluded that He was indeed the Messiah. His being led by the Spirit to minister to this one woman led to many others having an encounter with Him. If we are led by the Spirit, one encounter can produce a cascading effect whereby many others experience and believe in the Lord. The impact on that one person's life is often enough to impact others. She became a witness, because she was telling everyone about her encounter with the Messiah, which drew them to investigate and ultimately to believe. He was operating in the power of the Spirit, and this promise is available to believers as well. The Lord promised His disciples that they would receive power after that the Holy Ghost was come upon them, and they would be clothed with power from on high, and be His witnesses. So the fifth principle is expect the power of God to empower you to witness.

Maybe you do not understand Oneness doctrine as well as you thought you did?

[Pilgrum]

Seven Principles of Power Evangelism
This is an awesome teaching bringing forth some powerful principles! Thank you for sharing this! We need this to clarify the direction our Christian walk should be going. Total consecration! Yes, that is were it all starts and hinges upon!

[Esaias]

Thank you for the kind words. Glad it was a blessing to you. :)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Thanks for sharing.

[Armapeet.Singh]

Is this a study or a tract?

Just curious, if a study it is great. Will plagarize it if given a permission! LOL

If a tract then it is too heavy. People today will drop it just seeing the context. Just saying.

[Esaias]

Is this a study or a tract?

Just curious, if a study it is great. Will plagarize it if given a permission! LOL

If a tract then it is too heavy. People today will drop it just seeing the context. Just saying.

This is a brief study for Christians, using the Lord's example to teach certain principles about witnessing. It was derived from a teaching I gave awhile back in church. By all means use it to teach others, improve it where you can and as the Lord blesses.

[mfblume]

Good stuff, Esaias! You have a gift to write. Have you written a book yet? If not, do it, and go through CREATESPACE.com. I get mine printed there.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Would it be more biblical to clearly state that Jesus was guided by the Father?

"Guided by Deity" sounds "New Age-y", like you're trying too hard to not sound like a Trinitarian.

[mfblume]

Would it be more biblical to clearly state that Jesus was guided by the Father?

"Guided by Deity" sounds "New Age-y", like you're trying too hard to not sound like a Trinitarian.

If we say his humanity was guided by deity then I see no problem.

[Esaias]

Would it be more biblical to clearly state that Jesus was guided by the Father?

"Guided by Deity" sounds "New Age-y", like you're trying too hard to not sound like a Trinitarian.

Did I say "guided by Deity"?

This was not written for people looking to find fault where none exists, or who desire to split hairs. Nobody else has said it sounds as if I'm trying to sound like anything.

As for trying too hard not to sound like a trinitarian, that doesn't make sense. I do not "try not to sound trinitarian". I don't have to try. "I aren't one".

[Esaias]

Good stuff, Esaias! You have a gift to write. Have you written a book yet? If not, do it, and go through CREATESPACE.com. I get mine printed there.

I'll look into that. I've got several books "on the burner" just need to get them written lol.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Feel free to critique both the style and content of this short informational tract I have written on the subject of witnessing.

Did I say "guided by Deity"?

This was not written for people looking to find fault where none exists, or who desire to split hairs. Nobody else has said it sounds as if I'm trying to sound like anything.

As for trying too hard not to sound like a trinitarian, that doesn't make sense. I do not "try not to sound trinitarian". I don't have to try. "I aren't one".

I took the time to read and re-read this purposefully trying to be critical because that is what you asked for.

[Esaias]

I took the time to read and re-read this purposefully trying to be critical because that is what you asked for.

OK, thanks. Any comments on the style or form? I know my writing can always be improved...

[Jermyn Davidson]

Feel free to critique both the style and content of this short informational tract I have written on the subject of witnessing.

This tract reads more like a book. I would try to condense your information to about three or four sentences per point.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Paragraph I.

"divinely guided"
I am stumbling over this every time I read this. With my Oneness cap on, I am telling you, your language will cause questions for some.

If Jesus is the Father, why would He need to be guided? The blind need guides. Jesus knew who the woman at the well was and knew she would be there before He physically arrived.


Also in Paragraph I.
If Jesus was guided by the Father, then state that plainly instead of "divinely guided". If you want to keep the phrase, "divinely guided", should it read "Divinely guided"?

Also in Paragraph I.
At the end of Paragraph I, we are led by the Spirit of God. For the sake of consistency, should it be stated that we are being led by the Father, like Jesus was guided by the Father? Maybe you want to just leave that last part off the sentence.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Did I say "guided by Deity"?


I got confused between two different threads. I apologize.

[Esaias]

Paragraph I.

"divinely guided"
I am stumbling over this every time I read this. With my Oneness cap on, I am telling you, your language will cause questions for some.

If Jesus is the Father, why would He need to be guided? The blind need guides. Jesus knew who the woman at the well was and knew she would be there before He physically arrived.


Also in Paragraph I.
If Jesus was guided by the Father, then state that plainly instead of "divinely guided". If you want to keep the phrase, "divinely guided", should it read "Divinely guided"?

Also in Paragraph I.
At the end of Paragraph I, we are led by the Spirit of God. For the sake of consistency, should it be stated that we are being led by the Father, like Jesus was guided by the Father? Maybe you want to just leave that last part off the sentence.

Does anyone else here have an issue with the idea that Jesus was 'divinely guided' in his actions? Does anyone else here have an issue with the terminology I use, saying we are 'led by the Spirit of God', as being inconsistent with the idea of being led by the Father?

Honestly your questions, such as "If Jesus is the Father, why would He need to be guided?" sound more like something a JW would ask, or maybe a trinitarian, in order to create a caricature of Oneness beliefs. I truly think you do not understand Oneness as well as you think you do.

Jesus was divinely guided and empowered:

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


Joh_15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.


Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh_12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


Act_10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


I could go on, but y'all get the idea.

BTW - we are led by the Spirit of God:

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

[mfblume]

The humanity of Jesus had to be led by the Spirit.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jermyn. with all due respect, and I mean that because you are manifested to be utterly sincere, I think you need to study more about how human Jesus' humanity was. It had to pray and be led and guided by the Spirit. And that is why Jesus said He could do nothing except the Father in Him did the work. Sometimes He spoke as God and other times as man. And when He spoke as man He said He utterly depended on the leading of the Spirit.

It was a big revelation to me, because I never hardly heard it from my oneness pastors.

Think of how we must live by the leading of Jesus, and all that entails, in order to understand how Jesus had to live by the Father.

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

[Esaias]

So, I should capitalize 'divine' as 'Divine'?

Also, include some brief explanation about how Christ could be 'guided by God' with regard to the doctrine of His Deity, just in case some reader is unfamiliar with the idea that Christ was, indeed, 'led by God' etc?

Did anyone notice any redundancies, or superfluous verbosity?

Any other recommendations for improvement?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Ok. Not even with my "Oneness Cap" on, I find the idea that Jesus went to the well not knowing in advance that the woman at the well would be there and not knowing about her, etc to be problematic.

[mfblume]

Ok. Not even with my "Oneness Cap" on, I find the idea that Jesus went to the well not knowing in advance that the woman at the well would be there and not knowing about her, etc to be problematic.

No scripture indicates he knew or did not know. We just know that he knew he had to go.

Think of it this way. Jesus LEARNED obedience. Now, we know He had deity at that time. So how could He already know obedience if we read HE LEARNED it? Now we know deity already knew everything. But when we think about it, deity cannot learn obedience because deity obeys nobody. Anyway, my point is He had deity at the point in his earthly life when he was learning obedience. So clearly the humanity had to learn like we do. So, what's the problem with Jesus not knowing the woman would be at the well before he went?

We also read this:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

How could the FATHER know the coming of the Son while the Son did not know?

[Esaias]

Ok. Not even with my "Oneness Cap" on, I find the idea that Jesus went to the well not knowing in advance that the woman at the well would be there and not knowing about her, etc to be problematic.

Actually, I never said he did NOT know he would meet the woman at the well.

In fact, I said this: "It is as if He knew that He was there to meet someone, someone whom the disciples would have interfered with."

I think you may have had some faulty Christology taught to you. Jesus is not "God running around in a human body", as if the mind of Jesus is indistinguishable from the mind of God. Jesus Christ is God existing and functioning as a human being. Hence, He prayed, He hungered, He had to learn His ABCs from Mom and Dad, He had to have His swaddling clothes changed, He grew weary and had to sleep, He grew hungry and had to eat, He increased in wisdom meaning He learned things that He did not know beforehand. In fact, as brother Blume points out, He did not know the time of His Return. All of these things are utterly impossible unless He was operating with a genuine human mind and consciousness. And if any of these things are possible - we know they are for the Scripture says they happened - then it is totally possible that He was not consciously aware that He needed to go through Samaria to meet a very specific woman for a very specific purpose and have a specific conversation with her about specific things BEFOREHAND.

Although, as I already noted, I did not actually say that He did NOT have that kind of prior knowledge. But even if He did, how did He get it? Was He born with that specific knowledge? Or was it revealed to Him by the Spirit? I submit that any supernatural knowledge Jesus Christ had would have to have been the result of REVELATION by the Spirit of God.

How else does a human being know anything supernaturally anyway? The human brain does not have the capacity to know certain things, unless the Spirit of God reveals it.

[Jermyn Davidson]

This does sound JW like.

The fullness of God dwelled in Jesus Christ bodily. Therefore, it is very easy to accept that Jesus Christ knew and knew about the woman at the well before He met her.

It is not easy to accept that Jesus was guided to a certain spot not knowing who He was going to meet or her situation beforehand.

[mfblume]

This does sound JW like.

The fullness of God dwelled in Jesus Christ bodily. Therefore, it is very easy to accept that Jesus Christ knew and knew about the woman at the well before He met her.

Brother, the fact is his humanity did not know what his deity knew. His humanity had a distinct MIND.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

[Esaias]

This does sound JW like.

The fullness of God dwelled in Jesus Christ bodily. Therefore, it is very easy to accept that Jesus Christ knew and knew about the woman at the well before He met her.

It is not easy to accept that Jesus was guided to a certain spot not knowing who He was going to meet or her situation beforehand.

Actually, I never said he did NOT know he would meet the woman at the well.

In fact, I said this: "It is as if He knew that He was there to meet someone, someone whom the disciples would have interfered with."

I think you may have had some faulty Christology taught to you. Jesus is not "God running around in a human body", as if the mind of Jesus is indistinguishable from the mind of God. Jesus Christ is God existing and functioning as a human being. Hence, He prayed, He hungered, He had to learn His ABCs from Mom and Dad, He had to have His swaddling clothes changed, He grew weary and had to sleep, He grew hungry and had to eat, He increased in wisdom meaning He learned things that He did not know beforehand. In fact, as brother Blume points out, He did not know the time of His Return. All of these things are utterly impossible unless He was operating with a genuine human mind and consciousness. And if any of these things are possible - we know they are for the Scripture says they happened - then it is totally possible that He was not consciously aware that He needed to go through Samaria to meet a very specific woman for a very specific purpose and have a specific conversation with her about specific things BEFOREHAND.

Although, as I already noted, I did not actually say that He did NOT have that kind of prior knowledge. But even if He did, how did He get it? Was He born with that specific knowledge? Or was it revealed to Him by the Spirit? I submit that any supernatural knowledge Jesus Christ had would have to have been the result of REVELATION by the Spirit of God.

How else does a human being know anything supernaturally anyway? The human brain does not have the capacity to know certain things, unless the Spirit of God reveals it.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Esaias, if Jesus was guided to the woman at the well, it implies a certain lack of knowledge on the part of Jesus, in this situation.

So Jesus didn't know where He was going? No, He knew exactly where He was going.

So Jesus didn't know why He was going to Samaria? If Jesus is the, I AM, then surely He would know why He went where He went.

That same logic applies as to whether or not He knew the woman before He met her.

He created her!

[Esaias]

Esaias, if Jesus was guided to the woman at the well, it implies a certain lack of knowledge on the part of Jesus, in this situation.

So Jesus didn't know where He was going? No, He knew exactly where He was going.

So Jesus didn't know why He was going to Samaria? If Jesus is the, I AM, then surely He would know why He went where He went.

That same logic applies as to whether or not He knew the woman before He met her.

He created her!

Then He could not have 'increased in wisdom' nor could He have not known the hour of the coming of the Son of Man.

Your Christology is definitely defective, and is not truly Oneness. It is also not trinitarian, or even Arian. EDIT: not sure where 'Socinian' came from, got my wires crossed. Sorry.

At least as far as Christ's knowledge and activities are concerned.

[Esaias]

Anyway, back to the subject of the thread.

Does anyone else have any constructive criticism to offer? Especially on the topic of style, word choice, phraseology? Or the arrangement and order of the information presented?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Apparently individuals who have left the One God movement to find pasture in Trinitarianville, really never understood One God theology? Well, I don't even think they understood any ology. Could be they were too busy getting upset with their surroundings? Having issues with correction coming over a pulpit, while thinking to themselves if they had a chance to get behind the pulpit they would really straighten some things out? While they themselves were into all kinds of mess behind closed doors, always seemingly going in and out of the church's revolving doors? Yet, still theology wasn't ever first and foremost, standing with hands raised with a bit of a sway to the music maybe was their main focus?

[mfblume]

Esaias, if Jesus was guided to the woman at the well, it implies a certain lack of knowledge on the part of Jesus, in this situation.

So Jesus didn't know where He was going? No, He knew exactly where He was going.

So Jesus didn't know why He was going to Samaria? If Jesus is the, I AM, then surely He would know why He went where He went.

That same logic applies as to whether or not He knew the woman before He met her.

He created her!

Why aren't you answering my question about how your position holds if the following verse shows Jesus as a man lacked awareness of some things?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Then He could not have 'increased in wisdom' nor could He have not known the hour of the coming of the Son of Man.

Your Christology is definitely defective, and is not truly Oneness. It is also not trinitarian, or even Arian. EDIT: not sure where 'Socinian' came from, got my wires crossed. Sorry.

At least as far as Christ's knowledge and activities are concerned.

Okie dokie.

You leave the opportunity open for Jesus Christ, Son of God, to not know who He was going to meet at the well when He clearly stated that He had to go to Samaria.

Your theology presents a man who was anointed but not the Almighty God, in this situation.

Your theology presents a mere, "man that has told me everything I've ever done" when in this situation, He was not operating as an anointed man, but as God.

I disagree with you.

So how do you determine when Jesus is acting as the Son of God, when Jesus is acting as an anointed man, and when He is acting as a normal man?

If I am wrong in my Oneness presumptions, it might be because I have forgotten.

However, I do know what I can remember and I recognize when something doesn't sound right.

*Jesus knew He had to go to Samaria because as God, He knew He had to minister to that woman.

*Jesus knew who He was going to meet in Samaria before He met her.

*Jesus knew all about the woman at the well not because He was operating in one of the gifts of the Spirit, but because He is God.

*Paragraph I and your subsequent posts appear to challenge one or more of the three points above.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Why aren't you answering my question about how your position holds if the following verse shows Jesus as a man lacked awareness of some things?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Because I just realized that you want me to answer this question. :)

This is one of the verses that helped me to realize that Jesus Christ, Son of God, could not be the Father.

As I previously read this verse, it sounded to me as if this verse was not speaking of the man, but of the Son of God, as in Deity but I realize at 12:56am that my thinking was flawed concerning this scripture.

This scripture is speaking of human side of Jesus Christ.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Apparently individuals who have left the One God movement to find pasture in Trinitarianville, really never understood One God theology? Well, I don't even think they understood any ology. Could be they were too busy getting upset with their surroundings? Having issues with correction coming over a pulpit, while thinking to themselves if they had a chance to get behind the pulpit they would really straighten some things out? While they themselves were into all kinds of mess behind closed doors, always seemingly going in and out of the church's revolving doors? Yet, still theology wasn't ever first and foremost, standing with hands raised with a bit of a sway to the music maybe was their main focus?

God bless you sir.

[mfblume]

Okie dokie.

You leave the opportunity open for Jesus Christ, Son of God, to not know who He was going to meet at the well when He clearly stated that He had to go to Samaria.

Just because He knew he had to go to Samaria does not mean He knew everything about the woman. He may have, He may not have. That statement does not say either way.

Your theology presents a man who was anointed but not the Almighty God, in this situation.
Not it does not. Oneness recognizes that God was manifest in flesh and the humanity in that manifestation DID NOT KNOW SOME THINGS.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

At the same time His person as Deity knew all.

Your theology presents a mere, "man that has told me everything I've ever done" when in this situation, He was not operating as an anointed man, but as God.

No he was not operating as God. This is a man operating in the gifts of the Spirit.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

We could not do the things He did if He was only operating as God. He lived an example of how we must rely on Deity to be used of God. He fasted and prayed. Does God need to do that? Why did He do that?

I disagree with you.

So how do you determine when Jesus is acting as the Son of God, when Jesus is acting as an anointed man, and when He is acting as a normal man?

Compare what he did with the things the bible says we can do.


If I am wrong in my Oneness presumptions, it might be because I have forgotten.

However, I do know what I can remember and I recognize when something doesn't sound right.

If you have always been wrong about a concept you would not know what sounds proper. Just saying. Not trying to insult anyone here.

*Jesus knew He had to go to Samaria because as God, He knew He had to minister to that woman.

The bible does not indicate He knew anything more than He had to go to Samaria. It's adding to the word to say otherwise. He MAY HAVE known of the woman beforehand. We just are told He knew he had to go to Samaria.


*Jesus knew who He was going to meet in Samaria before He met her.

You do not have proof of that. Again, it may be the case, but the bible does not say.

*Jesus knew all about the woman at the well not because He was operating in one of the gifts of the Spirit, but because He is God.

Again we are not told he knew anything more than that he had to go to Samaria. You're saying the same thing over and over, and the same logic refutes your claim/

[mfblume]

Because I just realized that you want me to answer this question. :)

This is one of the verses that helped me to realize that Jesus Christ, Son of God, could not be the Father.



Thanks for your response.

What did you just say there? What do you mean Jesus Christ the Son of God could not be the Father? It sounds like you are not oneness. Please clarify.



Let Me Tell You Who Jesus Is
1st
Well the Jews were talking to Jesus and they said Just who are you
You claim to be the Christ
yet your greater than Abraham too
Jesus said everything that you say is true
Im greater than Abraham
But before there was an abraham I am the Great I am
2nd
Many People today they use his name
But its usually in Vain
No matter how hes helped them time and time again
But one of these days every tongue shall confess
And every knee shall bow
Lets not wait until that day lets Praise the Lord right now
3rd
Many People today love Jesus
But they dont know who he is
They put him 2nd place in the Godhead
Theyve got some strange ideas
But if Jesus Christ Created everything has all power Im asking you
If Jesus Christ is Lord of Lord
How can he be number 2
Chorus
Let me tell ya who Jesus is
Hes the rock of all ages
Hes the alpha and the Omega
Hes the Heavenly father
Hes the beginning and the end
Much more than this my friend
Hes the son of man , hes coming back again
Bridge)
I know Jesus is the Father.
I know Jesus is the Son.
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
and all these three are One.

That is not bible but a song, whether it's right or wrong.

So, please answer my question, how does your view stand if the bible says the Son of God did not know the hour of His coming?

[mfblume]

Because I just realized that you want me to answer this question. :)

This is one of the verses that helped me to realize that Jesus Christ, Son of God, could not be the Father.

As I previously read this verse, it sounded to me as if this verse was not speaking of the man, but of the Son of God, as in Deity but I realize at 12:56am that my thinking was flawed concerning this scripture.

This scripture is speaking of human side of Jesus Christ.

I see you edited your post after I responded to the first version. So I will respond to this new version.

Are you saying you used to be oneness but aren't any more? You are now trinitarian? Please clarify. I cannot respond adequately until I know where you're coming from.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I see you edited your post after I responded to the first version. So I will respond to this new version.

Are you saying you used to be oneness but aren't any more? You are now trinitarian? Please clarify. I cannot respond adequately until I know where you're coming from.

Ok.

I used to be a Oneness Pentecostal.
Now, I am not.
However, I had determined to read and respond to the original post as if I was still a Oneness Pentecostal, reading and responding based on how I had been taught, what I had heard, and what I had understood for many years.

So for the sake of this conversation, I am responding as a Oneness Pentecostal who apparently does not remember at all being ever taught that Jesus was operating in the gifts of the Spirit when He ministered, performed miracles, etc.

I admit that the concept of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, merely being a man and just operating in the gifts of the Spirit during His times of ministry and miracles seems strange to me.

[mfblume]

Ok.

I used to be a Oneness Pentecostal.
Now, I am not.
However, I had determined to read and respond to the original post as if I was still a Oneness Pentecostal, reading and responding based on how I had been taught, what I had heard, and what I had understood for many years.

So for the sake of this conversation, I am responding as a Oneness Pentecostal who apparently does not remember at all being ever taught that Jesus was operating in the gifts of the Spirit when He ministered, performed miracles, etc.

I admit that the concept of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, merely being a man and just operating in the gifts of the Spirit during His times of ministry and miracles seems strange to me.

Ok. that explains a lot. I was confused since I thought you were still oneness, and yet you said things that were not.

I am as oneness as they get as is Esaias, and we have both indicated we believe Jesus acted as a man operating in the gifts, because He said all the things He did would we do, and greater. There would be nothing He did that we could do if he was not acting as a man operating in the gifts.

Really it doesn't matter if you were taught as a oneness person that He did so. The fact is we're oneness and we see it clearly. Maybe your lack of being taught oneness properly is why you left it to begin with. That's not your fault, though. It's those who taught you oneness.

[mfblume]

PS. I have been oneness for near 40 years. And studied the issue intensely.

Oneness is not necessarily what any given oneness person was taught. If it's truth, there is usually more to it than what most have been taught. This means we can do our own studies and pursue the issue further. I have done that and saw reinforcements behind oneness that I was not taught.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Ok. that explains a lot. I was confused since I thought you were still oneness, and yet you said things that were not.

I am as oneness as they get as is Esaias, and we have both indicated we believe Jesus acted as a man operating in the gifts, because He said all the things He did would we do, and greater. There would be nothing He did that we could do if he was not acting as a man operating in the gifts.

Really it doesn't matter if you were taught as a oneness person that He did so. The fact is we're oneness and we see it clearly. Maybe your lack of being taught oneness properly is why you left it to begin with. That's not your fault, though. It's those who taught you oneness.

What did I say that wasn't Oneness?

[Jermyn Davidson]

I am convinced that due to Jesus being God, He did not need to be guided to Samaria.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Maybe your lack of being taught oneness properly is why you left it to begin with. That's not your fault, though. It's those who taught you oneness.

Please don't do that.

I assure you that any reflection of failure to understand Oneness theology rests squarely with me and not with the great men and women of God who poured themselves into me.

Maybe I have forgotten some stuff.
Maybe I never fully understood some stuff.
But if there is any failure in me, I own it. It is mine.

[Esaias]

Okie dokie.

You leave the opportunity open for Jesus Christ, Son of God, to not know who He was going to meet at the well when He clearly stated that He had to go to Samaria.

Your theology presents a man who was anointed but not the Almighty God, in this situation.

Your theology presents a mere, "man that has told me everything I've ever done" when in this situation, He was not operating as an anointed man, but as God.

I disagree with you.

So how do you determine when Jesus is acting as the Son of God, when Jesus is acting as an anointed man, and when He is acting as a normal man?

If I am wrong in my Oneness presumptions, it might be because I have forgotten.

However, I do know what I can remember and I recognize when something doesn't sound right.

*Jesus knew He had to go to Samaria because as God, He knew He had to minister to that woman.

*Jesus knew who He was going to meet in Samaria before He met her.

*Jesus knew all about the woman at the well not because He was operating in one of the gifts of the Spirit, but because He is God.

*Paragraph I and your subsequent posts appear to challenge one or more of the three points above.

sigh.

Well, the thread's been hijacked into a debate about whether or not Jesus actually is a genuine human being. Do you not think it strange that the other oneness folks never saw the 'issues' with my article that you do?

Okay, here we go, one more time.

According to you, Jesus the Son of God is and was omniscient, and could not have 'not known' anything.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

You are refuted by His own declaration.

AS for 'how do you tell when He is acting as Son of God, as an anointed man, and as a normal man?' the question is silly, and here's why. Jesus ALWAYS acted as the Son of God, as an anointed man, and as a 'normal' man - if by 'normal' you mean a genuine, fully human man. He is called 'Son of God' because of the virgin birth, not because He is 'God', but because He was born by the miraculous power of the Holy Ghost:

Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

He was and is a man, a genuine, complete human being:

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He was anointed by God with the Holy Ghost and operated in the power of the Spirit:

Act_10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Yet, the 'great mystery' is that He is nevertheless GOD:

Rom_9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

If you weren't clearly taught these things, then you weren't clearly taught Oneness. Either that, or you didn't pay attention.

[Esaias]

I am convinced that due to Jesus being God, He did not need to be guided to Samaria.

According to your logic, He didn't need to pray, eat, or sleep either.

[Jermyn Davidson]

"Oneness Cap" is off.
I am still thinking about all this.

Did Jesus Christ curse the fig tree as man or as the Son of God?

Did He calm the sea with His voice or did he calm the sea with his voice because he was anointed?

Raise Lazarus?

If your position is that Jesus Christ performed all of his ministry andcmiracles as a man only, then are you saying that the only way He demonstrated Himself to be the Son of God was when He rose from the dead?


This is all still related to Paragraph I.

[Jermyn Davidson]

According to your logic, He didn't need to pray, eat, or sleep either.

I am not saying that at all!

Of course He was a human being, but He is God first.

He never stopped being God when He put on humanity.

[Esaias]

"Oneness Cap" is off.
I am still thinking about all this.

Did Jesus Christ curse the fig tree as man or as the Son of God?

Did He calm the sea with His voice or did he calm the sea with his voice because he was anointed?

Raise Lazarus?

If your position is that Jesus Christ performed all of his ministry and miracles as a man only, then are you saying that the only way He demonstrated Himself to be the Son of God was when He rose from the dead?


This is all still related to Paragraph I.

My position is what the Bible says. God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and power.

Can you provide any verses which say clearly that Jesus did any miraculous thing BECAUSE HE WAS GOD? Other than being raised from the dead?

Here, here's a verse where Jesus Himself says He Himself DOES NOTHING:

Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

And again:

Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

[Esaias]

I am not saying that at all!

Of course He was a human being, but He is God first.

He never stopped being God when He put on humanity.

You ARE saying that. You are saying He did not need to be guided by the Spirit because He is God. Thus, whatever a human would need, He did not, because HE was and is God. Therefore, He did not need to eat, sleep, pray, etc.

Tell me, why did He pray?

[Esaias]

And, one last time, I never even said Jesus didn't know what awaited Him in Samaria.

This whole argument is based on a straw man to begin with.

And the purpose of the thread has been thwarted.

Typical. Oh well, teach me to post anything serious on AFF, right?

lol

[Jermyn Davidson]

sigh.

Well, the thread's been hijacked into a debate about whether or not Jesus actually is a genuine human being. Do you not think it strange that the other oneness folks never saw the 'issues' with my article that you do?

Okay, here we go, one more time.

According to you, Jesus the Son of God is and was omniscient, and could not have 'not known' anything.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

You are refuted by His own declaration.

AS for 'how do you tell when He is acting as Son of God, as an anointed man, and as a normal man?' the question is silly, and here's why. Jesus ALWAYS acted as the Son of God, as an anointed man, and as a 'normal' man - if by 'normal' you mean a genuine, fully human man. He is called 'Son of God' because of the virgin birth, not because He is 'God', but because He was born by the miraculous power of the Holy Ghost:

Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

He was and is a man, a genuine, complete human being:

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He was anointed by God with the Holy Ghost and operated in the power of the Spirit:

Act_10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Yet, the 'great mystery' is that He is nevertheless GOD:

Rom_9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

If you weren't clearly taught these things, then you weren't clearly taught Oneness. Either that, or you didn't pay attention.

Thank you for this post.

I was taught and agree with JUST ABOUT all that you have typed.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone emphasize the Sonship of Jesus Christ using the verse you used.

I SEE THAT VERSE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIGHT.

Thank you very much. Sincerely.


It's your explanation of whether Jesus is acting as God or man when performing ministry and miracles that I just don't agree with. In fact, I don't understand what you are saying.

And no, your thread is not hijacked.

This is all related to Paragraph I-- where you say that Jesus was divinely guided. I hope you can see the connection between that phrase and our current discussion.

[Jermyn Davidson]

You ARE saying that. You are saying He did not need to be guided by the Spirit because He is God. Thus, whatever a human would need, He did not, because HE was and is God. Therefore, He did not need to eat, sleep, pray, etc.

Tell me, why did He pray?

I was taught that Jesus prayed because He was setting the example for us to follow-- He subjected Himself to the limitations of humanity but at any time, He could simply act in His Power and Authority as God.

[Jermyn Davidson]

And, one last time, I never even said Jesus didn't know what awaited Him in Samaria.

This whole argument is based on a straw man to begin with.

And the purpose of the thread has been thwarted.

Typical. Oh well, teach me to post anything serious on AFF, right?

lol

Wow bro. This is a serious thread. The purpose has not been thwarted.

Your language of Jesus being guided IMPLIES a certain lack of knowledge on Jesus' behalf in this situation.

I always read that passage as the "GOD-MAN" knowing exactly where to go and who to minister to because He is God, not because the gifts of the Spirit were active in Him and not because He was being led by God IN THE SAME SENSE that we are sometimes led by God.

[Jermyn Davidson]

John 16:30
The disciples tell Jesus, "you know all things..."

John 21:17
Peter tells Jesus, "Lord, you know all things;"


Esaias and Bro Blume, I love you guys but I need to rest my eyes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Wow bro. This is a serious thread. The purpose has not been thwarted.

Your language of Jesus being guided IMPLIES a certain lack of knowledge on Jesus' behalf in this situation.

I always read that passage as the "GOD-MAN" knowing exactly where to go and who to minister to because He is God, not because the gifts of the Spirit were active in Him and not because He was being led by God IN THE SAME SENSE that we are sometimes led by God.

That's the conclusion JD comes away from this discussion?

Jesus was sometimes plugged in and other times He was not connected?

Since JD posted John 16:30, John 21:17 he should answer what was the "all things" they knew?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Wow bro. This is a serious thread. The purpose has not been thwarted.

Your language of Jesus being guided IMPLIES a certain lack of knowledge on Jesus' behalf in this situation.

I always read that passage as the "GOD-MAN" knowing exactly where to go and who to minister to because He is God, not because the gifts of the Spirit were active in Him and not because He was being led by God IN THE SAME SENSE that we are sometimes led by God.

That's the conclusion JD comes away from this discussion?

Jesus was sometimes plugged in and other times He was not connected?

Since JD posted John 16:30, John 21:17 he should answer what was the "all things" they knew?


Cupcake, :)
I think you have misunderstood me.

*It isn't MY CONCLUSION that sometimes Jesus was plugged in and sometimes He wasn't.

To me, it sounds like Esaias and Bro Blume are saying Jesus Christ performed His ministry and miracles as a sinless man operating in the gifts of the Spirit, apart from His Identity as the Son of God, apart from His Identity as God.

If this is what they are saying, then I find this problematic and incongruent with what I have been taught and believe about our God and Savior.




*There isn't an all things that "THEY KNEW".

The "all things" are references to the disciples confirming their belief that Jesus Christ Himself knows "all things".

The disciples do not qualify their statements and Jesus Christ does not qualify or correct their assertions of Him.

[votivesoul]

The only thing I think it lacks is application. Maybe a follow-up/part two on how one proactively approaches the principles so to be able to see results would be beneficial.

I also wouldn't make it a tract. Rather, a booklet would better suit the need, I think, since the material is pretty in-depth, and not for novices.

[Esaias]

The only thing I think it lacks is application. Maybe a follow-up/part two on how one proactively approaches the principles so to be able to see results would be beneficial.

I also wouldn't make it a tract. Rather, a booklet would better suit the need, I think, since the material is pretty in-depth, and not for novices.

Perhaps expand the conclusion to give definite examples and/or suggestions of the principles in action?

[votivesoul]

Perhaps expand the conclusion to give definite examples and/or suggestions of the principles in action?

Well, the how-to of anything is always the key.

So, principle #1 mentions the concept of being led by the Spirit.

But how does one cultivate that?

Simply telling someone "Be led by the Spirit" doesn't explain how the process occurs.

For example, if I want to be a farmer and I go to the farmer and I ask, "What do I need to do to grow a crop?"

If all the farmer says is "Cultivate the land and plant your seed", that's the WHAT, but not the HOW.

I think it's the same with a lot of teaching. We teach the principles and theory of a thing, without giving an application.

So, how would you put the principles of your track into practice? Would someone be able to take it and go and do, or would they need to go out with a seasoned power evangelist and be trained?

See what I mean?

Info is good, but application is better, for without application, info is just head knowledge.

[Jermyn Davidson]

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

Can we give life to anyone we will?

[mfblume]

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

Can we give life to anyone we will?

Brother let's talk about this in the 'Jesus Had Humanity' thread I started. the issue is hijacking the thread here. I have a post waiting for you there, anyway.

[Sister Alvear]

I don't know what it is but would say a study...

[KeptByTheWord]

Good information, but not tract worthy. The information would more suit a booklet, or a study.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I tried to re-read paragraph II in order to give you a fresh response but honestly, your view on the ministry and works of our Christ vexed me and literally turns my stomach.

You have provided good information couched in a "Christology" that I will NEVER agree with.

Looks like you worked hard on this.

Looks like it was a labor of passion.

Thanks for sharing something that is important to you.

[mfblume]

I tried to re-read paragraph II in order to give you a fresh response but honestly, your view on the ministry and works of our Christ vexed me and literally turns my stomach.

You have provided good information couched in a "Christology" that I will NEVER agree with.

Looks like you worked hard on this.

Looks like it was a labor of passion.

Thanks for sharing something that is important to you.

Why are you closed minded about this? Not trying to insult you. Can you speak from the bible to prove how this view is in error? We can just SAY it is wrong, but where;s the proof?

[Esaias]

I tried to re-read paragraph II in order to give you a fresh response but honestly, your view on the ministry and works of our Christ vexed me and literally turns my stomach.

You have provided good information couched in a "Christology" that I will NEVER agree with.

Looks like you worked hard on this.

Looks like it was a labor of passion.

Thanks for sharing something that is important to you.

The idea that Christ was not judgmental but was willing to bypass cultural prejudices in order to minister to a Samaritan woman vexes you and turns your stomach?

Wow.

[houston]

Does anyone really know JD's point of contention?

[mfblume]

Does anyone really know JD's point of contention?

I think he cannot imagine Jesus as a man relying on the Spirit. To him that destroys the fact Jesus is God. But he won't discuss it. We give scripture to prove it is the case, but he won't respond with anything except by saying our thoughts make him ill. I claim he simply never knew about oneness correctly, since he claims he used to be oneness. So I pasted excerpts from Bernard's book on oneness on my thread JESUS HAD HUMANITY. But it seems to be common that many think they know the teachings of oneness and really don't.

[houston]

I think he cannot imagine Jesus as a man relying on the Spirit. To him that destroys the fact Jesus is God. But he won't discuss it. We give scripture to prove it is the case, but he won't respond with anything except by saying our thoughts make him ill.

This isn't different from a Trinitarian perspective. Is JD a Trinitarian?

[Esaias]

Does anyone really know JD's point of contention?

Seems he doesn't believe Christ was human. Just God-in-a-body.

[mfblume]

This isn't different from a Trinitarian perspective. Is JD a Trinitarian?

Even trinitarians believe Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. He was not 100% man if he did not need Spirit leading.

[houston]

Seems he doesn't believe Christ was human. Just God-in-a-body.

That's ...interesting. I have heard others describe it as such.

[mfblume]

That's ...interesting. I have heard others describe it as such.

Jesus' words saying we would do the things he did and greater have no room in that mindset.