View Full Version : Gay people in Church
UltimateUltraConservative
06-17-2007, 01:00 AM
I am curious...
How careful should we be in inviting gay people to church?
AND NOBODY SAY ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU BANNED!
I want this to be a nice civilized christian-like thread! lol
Now, say you run into a drag queen on the street, they kind of want to go to church, but they are afraid of being bashed and treated badly in the church. Would you invite them to church, if you had even the slightest bit of hesitation?
Would you treat them the same, if only because they're still a person? What they do in their private life is disgusting. But, it doesn't mean that can't get the Holy Ghost and change. How would you handle this?
I have a friend who is gay. and I have invited her to church...but I have to wonder what would happen when she did come to church. If she would bring her girlfriend, if I should even be attempting to witness to her...
What would you do? And I'm asking this as where I come from, we dont have gay people in our churches (that we know about anyway!) and it's very well known that they will not be used until they're straight.
The Dean
06-17-2007, 01:09 AM
The title of your thread was changed as the UPC is not the entire Church. The thread would be better served without the discussing it as a UPC only issue as it affects the Apostolic Church as a whole.
SISTER Murphy
06-17-2007, 01:25 AM
I am curious...
How careful should we be in inviting gay people to church?
AND NOBODY SAY ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU BANNED!
I want this to be a nice civilized christian-like thread! lol
Now, say you run into a drag queen on the street, they kind of want to go to church, but they are afraid of being bashed and treated badly in the church. Would you invite them to church, if you had even the slightest bit of hesitation?
Would you treat them the same, if only because they're still a person? What they do in their private life is disgusting. But, it doesn't mean that can't get the Holy Ghost and change. How would you handle this?
I have a friend who is gay. and I have invited her to church...but I have to wonder what would happen when she did come to church. If she would bring her girlfriend, if I should even be attempting to witness to her...
What would you do? And I'm asking this as where I come from, we dont have gay people in our churches (that we know about anyway!) and it's very well known that they will not be used until they're straight.
Gay people need salvation and deliverance, just like everybody else. I have taken a lesbian co-worker to church (a special service where multiple churches were involved); she invited her 'partner', but the other woman didn't come. She was somewhat overwhelmed by the apostolic service, but I am convinced that she felt the presence of God, and I believe that God still deals with her heart. She never did come to another service with me while we worked together, but she would often bring up the subject of church and God for us to discuss.
My husband and I have invited other homosexuals and lesbians (there seem to be a lot of them in this area of the country - in fact, we had a county that decided to illegally give marriage licenses to same sex couples a couple of year ago - and we have usually worked in bigger companies where there always a few working with us) with whom we have worked. They were quite surprised that we would do such a thing, and sometimes even surprised that we would be kind, friendly, nice to them, since we were some of those 'homophobic conservative christians'. :sly It never seemed to take them very long to realize that, although we would never condone their lifestyle, we cared for them as people, and treated them with kindness, courtesy, decency, just like everybody else.
By all means, invite that cross dresser to church!!! Befriend that lesbian on the job!!! Show the love of Jesus to them, because they need it!!!!
UltimateUltraConservative
06-17-2007, 02:20 AM
Thank you. Being UPC that was my first thought. Thank you for broadening the spectrum.
The title of your thread was changed as the UPC is not the entire Church. The thread would be better served without the discussing it as a UPC only issue as it affects the Apostolic Church as a whole.
UltimateUltraConservative
06-17-2007, 03:14 AM
To me, and maybe I'm wrong, and if so, the Lord will show me, but to me, I think we should NOT treat them any differently than we would someone who was an alcoholic, or druggie, or a thief...a sin is still a sin. You'll still go to hell over it. But we're to show love to all people. God is no respector of persons, so why should I be? Salvation is for all. You don't have to like what they do, but I still think they should be treated the same as any other person. It's like when your kid goes out and you find out something they've been doing behind your back, you may not like what they're doing, but you still love them for it.
I do know some people, though, that if they found out so-n-so was gay, "oh, my heavens! hurry, turn your eyes! you might become one too! RUUUUN!"
But it should not be that way. Now, what does one do, when the gay person DOES get the Holy Ghost and wants to sing a special in church, and they are still living with their partner? How would you explain that they couldn't untiil they put away their sinful lifestyle?
Sister Alvear
06-17-2007, 05:29 AM
Invite anyone that crosses your path...they are souls...God has the power to forgive and change. That is the reason the church exists..."of such were some of you"...Paul...
Trouvere
06-17-2007, 06:58 AM
God changes people we do not.You have to trust Jesus.I invite whomsoever will like the bible says.Sin is sin.Some is seen more externally but then who knows what is sitting on the pew next to you? Only Jesus.
Steve Epley
06-17-2007, 12:28 PM
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
Rev Dooley
06-17-2007, 12:33 PM
Bro Epley, I concur with you here. I too believe that it is possible for them to get saved, but to date have not met one that has STAYED saved.
I too am curious...:donuts
NI
ApostolicRev
06-17-2007, 12:59 PM
It is sin nature. It has been proven time and again sinners go back to their sin. Alochol and drugs are a lot easier to hide than a "lifestyle." Just my thoughts......
Nahum
06-17-2007, 01:06 PM
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
Yes, I know of someone who has lived an overcoming life for two decades.
Steve Epley
06-17-2007, 01:07 PM
Yes, I know of someone who has lived an overcoming life for two decades.
Good that is encouraging. And you PERSONALLY know them?
Nahum
06-17-2007, 01:09 PM
Good that is encouraging. And you PERSONALLY know them?
Yes.
ManOfWord
06-17-2007, 01:13 PM
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
Bro Epley, I concur with you here. I too believe that it is possible for them to get saved, but to date have not met one that has STAYED saved.
I too am curious...:donuts
NI
Well, yes, I do personally know a couple who were radically in the lifestyle and have been out of it for years.
As far as treating "them" is concerned, if they come to NLC, they get a hug from me know matter who they are. This is no different from a convicted felon, murderer, etc. Every person in bondage needs set free. Only the love, blood and word of Jesus can do that.
If we differentiate in our treatment of sinners, we will become prejudiced in our treatment of each other as well. For instance, Sis. Suzie cuts her hair and this is the ONLY thing she has done that is contrary to her church. Sis. Suzie will no longer be Sis. Suzie.....she will instantly be Miss Suzie. A saint today, an ain't tomorrow.
These things ought not to be. :D
Steve Epley
06-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Well, yes, I do personally know a couple who were radically in the lifestyle and have been out of it for years.
As far as treating "them" is concerned, if they come to NLC, they get a hug from me know matter who they are. This is no different from a convicted felon, murderer, etc. Every person in bondage needs set free. Only the love, blood and word of Jesus can do that.
If we differentiate in our treatment of sinners, we will become prejudiced in our treatment of each other as well. For instance, Sis. Suzie cuts her hair and this is the ONLY thing she has done that is contrary to her church. Sis. Suzie will no longer be Sis. Suzie.....she will instantly be Miss Suzie. A saint today, an ain't tomorrow.
These things ought not to be. :D
If I hug a homo I want to really know he is an ex sure enough!!!!! Sorry that is the way it is.
If I hug a homo I want to really know he is an ex sure enough!!!!! Sorry that is the way it is.
To really know.... that could entail alot of testing... :poloroid
UltimateUltraConservative
06-17-2007, 01:28 PM
I can understand that point of view. But, gay people are not going to be attracted or try to force themselves on any of the same sex, just like you would not be attracted to and force yourself and hit on someone of the opposite sex, just because that's which side of the team you play for.
They are people who deserve to be treated the same as anyone else. HOWEVER! If you see a look in their eye that says, "I want you!" yeah, you'd better run!
lol
I have been friends with several people who were gay, and when I was younger, the place I worked had about 40 percent gays. They understood I was not where they were...and there was never a problem.
If I hug a homo I want to really know he is an ex sure enough!!!!! Sorry that is the way it is.
Steve Epley
06-17-2007, 01:50 PM
I am from the Mid-West my exposure to them has been very little and the story is not pleasant to say the least. However I believe the scriptures and they say they can be saved so I believe the book. I just have not seen it myself. But I rejoice in those who have.
I am from the Mid-West my exposure to them has been very little and the story is not pleasant to say the least. However I believe the scriptures and they say they can be saved so I believe the book. I just have not seen it myself. But I rejoice in those who have.
DITTO
Rhoni
06-17-2007, 02:20 PM
I am curious...
How careful should we be in inviting gay people to church?
AND NOBODY SAY ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU BANNED!
I want this to be a nice civilized christian-like thread! lol
Now, say you run into a drag queen on the street, they kind of want to go to church, but they are afraid of being bashed and treated badly in the church. Would you invite them to church, if you had even the slightest bit of hesitation?
Would you treat them the same, if only because they're still a person? What they do in their private life is disgusting. But, it doesn't mean that can't get the Holy Ghost and change. How would you handle this?
I have a friend who is gay. and I have invited her to church...but I have to wonder what would happen when she did come to church. If she would bring her girlfriend, if I should even be attempting to witness to her...
What would you do? And I'm asking this as where I come from, we dont have gay people in our churches (that we know about anyway!) and it's very well known that they will not be used until they're straight.
If you aren't comfortable bringing people who are gay to your church because of what the church's reaction would be...I'd have to say...You are in the wrong church and you need to search for another.:sshhh
Blessings, Rhoni
TalkLady
06-17-2007, 03:30 PM
I know I may be attacked after this post - but I think there are preachers who could benefit from a course in sensitivity training. ....I don't mean formalized secular training necessarily but some discussion about what is appropriate and inappropriate as far was what is said about homosexuals from a pulpit.
Sin is sin and homosexual sin is so much more stigmatized than heterosexual. Both are wrong. Both are sin. I was in a church service with some people who had Church of Christ backgrounds and they were "Campbellited right out the door"......It was Campbellites this and Campbellites that...My husband and I love this kindly preacher but that type of language serves no purpose. Also, the same with some Baptist people I invited. Billy Graham was attacked. What was the purpose in that? ...They, too, went right out the door. It was heartbreaking to have worked hard to inivite someone to church and then have the evangelist run them off with those offensive comments. I don't think homosexual people should be called _________ (use your imagination for those words I don't want to type) from the pulpit......I don't think Church of Christ people should be called Campbellites. I think preachers should deal with the sin and not get into such offensive language. Most of the preachers I know are well disciplined in these matters. Often it is older preacher who is using this type of language. I realize the older are supposed to teach the younger, but I have often wondered how a younger minister might be able to discuss this with an older minister?.....This type of thing seems almost unapproachable. ....I wish some of the younger men could have a talk to the older men about this type of thing.
I think all gay people should be invited to church. How else are they going to get saved? Church people should treat people nicely, but it's not always going to happen either. The person who invited them should act as somewhat of an advocate for them maybe.
TalkLady
06-17-2007, 03:36 PM
I think all gay people should be invited to church. How else are they going to get saved? Church people should treat people nicely, but it's not always going to happen either. The person who invited them should act as somewhat of an advocate for them maybe.
I agree, ILG....There are gay people who work with me - several. I have invited some of them to church but no one has ever come. I think if one did come I would almost feel obligated to go to the pastor and tell him "this person is gay"...Maybe that would help. The people I work with are not closet gays. They have been with the same people for over 20 years.
Old Paths
06-17-2007, 04:03 PM
I would answer, but I suffer from an extreme case of homophobia.
RevDWW
06-17-2007, 04:09 PM
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
Yes I know of a guy that repented, was baptized and received the Holy Ghost. Changed his life and lifestyle completely and now he preaches the gospel. Last time I saw him and his wife they were doing great and had a blessed family.
God can do what we might consider to impossible!
Rhoni
06-17-2007, 04:23 PM
I know I may be attacked after this post - but I think there are preachers who could benefit from a course in sensitivity training. ....I don't mean formalized secular training necessarily but some discussion about what is appropriate and inappropriate as far was what is said about homosexuals from a pulpit.
Sin is sin and homosexual sin is so much more stigmatized than heterosexual. Both are wrong. Both are sin. I was in a church service with some people who had Church of Christ backgrounds and they were "Campbellited right out the door"......It was Campbellites this and Campbellites that...My husband and I love this kindly preacher but that type of language serves no purpose. Also, the same with some Baptist people I invited. Billy Graham was attacked. What was the purpose in that? ...They, too, went right out the door. It was heartbreaking to have worked hard to inivite someone to church and then have the evangelist run them off with those offensive comments. I don't think homosexual people should be called _________ (use your imagination for those words I don't want to type) from the pulpit......I don't think Church of Christ people should be called Campbellites. I think preachers should deal with the sin and not get into such offensive language. Most of the preachers I know are well disciplined in these matters. Often it is older preacher who is using this type of language. I realize the older are supposed to teach the younger, but I have often wondered how a younger minister might be able to discuss this with an older minister?.....This type of thing seems almost unapproachable. ....I wish some of the younger men could have a talk to the older men about this type of thing.
Good Post!
Rhoni
06-17-2007, 04:24 PM
I would answer, but I suffer from an extreme case of homophobia.
I'll be praying for your deliverance.:IAM
Blessings, Rhoni
Sin is sin and homosexual sin is so much more stigmatized than heterosexual. Both are wrong. Both are sin. I was in a church service with some people who had Church of Christ backgrounds and they were "Campbellited right out the door"......It was Campbellites this and Campbellites that...My husband and I love this kindly preacher but that type of language serves no purpose. Also, the same with some Baptist people I invited. Billy Graham was attacked. What was the purpose in that? ...They, too, went right out the door. It was heartbreaking to have worked hard to inivite someone to church and then have the evangelist run them off with those offensive comments. I don't think homosexual people should be called _________ (use your imagination for those words I don't want to type) from the pulpit......I don't think Church of Christ people should be called Campbellites. I think preachers should deal with the sin and not get into such offensive language. Most of the preachers I know are well disciplined in these matters. Often it is older preacher who is using this type of language. I realize the older are supposed to teach the younger, but I have often wondered how a younger minister might be able to discuss this with an older minister?.....This type of thing seems almost unapproachable. ....I wish some of the younger men could have a talk to the older men about this type of thing.
I agree, but some people think that this type of language means they are not "soft on the message". To them, they think speaking nicely and respectfully means they are compromising. And that's sad.
Old Paths
06-17-2007, 04:27 PM
I'll be praying for your deliverance.:IAM
Blessings, Rhoni
Help yourself.
I can use the prayer and you can use the practice.
MissBrattified
06-17-2007, 05:16 PM
A sinner is a sinner is a sinner...and a Christian's primary calling is to lead them to Christ.
Here's a thought...have we had only a few homosexuals saved because Christians, for the most part, avoid them?
Rhoni
06-17-2007, 05:43 PM
A sinner is a sinner is a sinner...and a Christian's primary calling is to lead them to Christ.
Here's a thought...have we had only a few homosexuals saved because Christians, for the most part, avoid them?
We not only avoid, but we do not know how to minister to them. Those truly homophobic are either afraid of something they do not understand, or they understand all too well and are afraid of themselves.:sshhh
Sincerely, Rhoni
berkeley
06-17-2007, 06:48 PM
...this is edifying...
Sister Alvear
06-17-2007, 08:15 PM
What I really think is we need LEARNED people in our mist that know how to help people ...Have you ever noticed how "afraid" Pentecostal people are of educated people that know how to deal with people that have "deep" problems...A little book learning might help us all out a bit...
and yes I do know one that completely changed...
If the "worldly denominations" can have clinics for this or that I ask where are we??? It should be us the Holy Ghost filled people that are reaching out in every possible way...
Sadly many are stuck in the mud...Oh, if we could just move out to where the sinner lives and offer a fresh pot of manna to his hungry soul...
I believe in the power of the gospel. If the gospel cannot change then something is wrong...If the sinner wants deliverance and cannot be delivered then something is wrong with us.
It is easy to make excuses for our lack of power. We must pray as never before. We live in a world of much sin...but where sin abounds GRACE much more abounds...
(just a few thoughts of mine)
berkeley
06-17-2007, 08:46 PM
What I really think is we need LEARNED people in our mist that know how to help people ...Have you ever noticed how "afraid" Pentecostal people are of educated people that know how to deal with people that have "deep" problems...A little book learning might help us all out a bit...
and yes I do know one that completely changed...
If the "worldly denominations" can have clinics for this or that I ask where are we??? It should be us the Holy Ghost filled people that are reaching out in every possible way...
Sadly many are stuck in the mud...Oh, if we could just move out to where the sinner lives and offer a fresh pot of manna to his hungry soul...
I believe in the power of the gospel. If the gospel cannot change then something is wrong...If the sinner wants deliverance and cannot be delivered then something is wrong with us.
It is easy to make excuses for our lack of power. We must pray as never before. We live in a world of much sin...but where sin abounds GRACE much more abounds...
(just a few thoughts of mine)
Excellent ....
What I really think is we need LEARNED people in our mist that know how to help people ...Have you ever noticed how "afraid" Pentecostal people are of educated people that know how to deal with people that have "deep" problems...A little book learning might help us all out a bit...
and yes I do know one that completely changed...
If the "worldly denominations" can have clinics for this or that I ask where are we??? It should be us the Holy Ghost filled people that are reaching out in every possible way...
Sadly many are stuck in the mud...Oh, if we could just move out to where the sinner lives and offer a fresh pot of manna to his hungry soul...
I believe in the power of the gospel. If the gospel cannot change then something is wrong...If the sinner wants deliverance and cannot be delivered then something is wrong with us.
It is easy to make excuses for our lack of power. We must pray as never before. We live in a world of much sin...but where sin abounds GRACE much more abounds...
(just a few thoughts of mine)
Sis. Alvear, great words.
Old Paths
06-17-2007, 08:54 PM
Me?
Really homophobic?
Not in the classic sense.
But, I'm just scared to death of what they do to each other.
It's perverted, nasty, filthy annnnnd sinful.
I have preached to and worked with homosexuals trying my best to help them, but tolerate their "life style" while they profess to be changing... not in this lifetime.
jmho
HeavenlyOne
06-17-2007, 10:16 PM
Help yourself.
I can use the prayer and you can use the practice.
ROFL!
That is just too funny!
chaotic_resolve
06-18-2007, 12:37 AM
I am curious...
How careful should we be in inviting gay people to church?
Now, say you run into a drag queen on the street, they kind of want to go to church, but they are afraid of being bashed and treated badly in the church. Would you invite them to church, if you had even the slightest bit of hesitation?
Would you treat them the same, if only because they're still a person? What they do in their private life is disgusting. But, it doesn't mean that can't get the Holy Ghost and change. How would you handle this?
They're welcome @ my church. They'll be greeted with a welcoming smile and Godly love. They're no different than a drug dealer, pimp, prostitute, liar, etc.
If you aren't comfortable bringing people who are gay to your church because of what the church's reaction would be...I'd have to say...You are in the wrong church and you need to search for another.:sshhh
Exactly. :thumbsup
I would answer, but I suffer from an extreme case of homophobia.
That's sad, but I'm not surprised.
Me?
Really homophobic?
Not in the classic sense.
But, I'm just scared to death of what they do to each other.
It's perverted, nasty, filthy annnnnd sinful.
I have preached to and worked with homosexuals trying my best to help them, but tolerate their "life style" while they profess to be changing... not in this lifetime.
Don't be scurred. God loves them just as much as He does anyone else who commits any other sin.
I've had a few gay friends - all of which were well-mannered and well-behaved. (not to mention well-dressed) They weren't overt in their homosexuality or lesbianism, and I never felt threatened or was afraid of what they did or who they were.
Regarding whether or not they continue living for God once they've been saved and delivered. That's really not for us to worry about. Sure, many may well forsake God and go back to sin, but that shouldn't stop anyone from continuing to reach out to that particular community.
I've known liars (some licensed ministers) who lie and continue to lie. Doesn't mean I shun them or others like them.
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
Brother E, I knew a fellow who was gay. He came to the Lord around 1980 or so in his mid 30's. Tragically in 1985 or 86, he became sick with AIDS. His decline was very fast and he died of that terrible disease. He was engaged to a lady in the church but sadly they never married. She did take care of him in his final days.
He died full of the Holy Ghost.
Old Paths
06-18-2007, 08:21 AM
What is so crazy to me is the way some folks want to make homosexuals and lesbians NORMAL.
You know, "it's like any other sin".
Seems that it's the "in thing" to be tolerant toward perversion.
There is NOTHING normal about what they do, it is perverted, nasty, filthy and sinful, not to mention that God calls it an abomination.
jmho
Steve Epley
06-18-2007, 08:24 AM
What is so crazy to me is the way some folks want to make homosexuals and lesbians NORMAL.
You know, "it's like any other sin".
Seems that it's the "in thing" to be tolerant toward perversion.
There is NOTHING normal about what they do, it is perverted, nasty, filthy and sinful, not to mention that God calls it an abomination.
jmho
NOT normal but perversion and political correct folks can never change that.
What is so crazy to me is the way some folks want to make homosexuals and lesbians NORMAL.
You know, "it's like any other sin".
Seems that it's the "in thing" to be tolerant toward perversion.
There is NOTHING normal about what they do, it is perverted, nasty, filthy and sinful, not to mention that God calls it an abomination.
jmho
Who said they are normal?
Steve Epley
06-18-2007, 08:41 AM
Who said they are normal?
To marginalize the sin with lying and so forth to me is saying well everyone does it. But it is perversion. Adultery-fornication are horrid sins but NOT perversion.
To marginalize the sin with lying and so forth to me is saying well everyone does it. But it is perversion. Adultery-fornication are horrid sins but NOT perversion.
perversion
1388, "action of turning aside from truth, corruption, distortion" (originally of religious beliefs), from pervert (v.) (q.v.). Psychological sense of "disorder of sexual behavior in which satisfaction is sought through channels other than those of normal heterosexual intercourse" is from 1892, originally including homosexuality.
"Perversions are defined as unnatural acts, acts contrary to nature, bestial, abominable, and detestable. Such laws are interpretable only in accordance with the ancient tradition of the English common law which ... is committed to the doctrine that no sexual activity is justifiable unless its objective is procreation." [A.C. Kinsey, et.al., "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male," 1948]
Sounds like these definitions agree with you.
I think what people are many times trying to say is not that homosexuality is normal but that those who commit such sins are still people needing salvation and that sometimes they end up where they are because perversion was deemed normal to them from childhood because they were vicimized by molestation or somesuch. Compassion is needed rather than judgment. Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn it because He that doesn't believe is condemned already. But He came into the world to save it.
Steve Epley
06-18-2007, 08:50 AM
Sounds like these definitions agree with you.
I think what people are many times trying to say is not that homosexuality is normal but that those who commit such sins are still people needing salvation and that sometimes they end up where they are because perversion was deemed normal to them from childhood because they were vicimized by molestation or somesuch. Compassion is needed rather than judgment. Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn it because He that doesn't believe is condemned already. But He came into the world to save it.
I have preached and worked with homosexuals hoping for the best. I just have not seen any change for good. But others have reported they have so I rejoice. The scriptures are clear they can be saved. I would attempt to see any one of them saved.
I have preached and worked with homosexuals hoping for the best. I just have not seen any change for good. But others have reported they have so I rejoice. The scriptures are clear they can be saved. I would attempt to see any one of them saved.
That's good. There is just so many who want to shove down their throats how bad they are. That's probably just a knee-jerk reaction to the propoganda rhetoric that always preaches that homoseuxality is normal and should be embraced. But Jesus said they are condemned already.
MissBrattified
06-18-2007, 09:51 AM
What is so crazy to me is the way some folks want to make homosexuals and lesbians NORMAL.
You know, "it's like any other sin".
Seems that it's the "in thing" to be tolerant toward perversion.
There is NOTHING normal about what they do, it is perverted, nasty, filthy and sinful, not to mention that God calls it an abomination.
jmho
I don't believe homosexuality is normal, but I do think it is a sin that simply makes them a sinner, and from God's perspective, He died for them just the same as any other.
P.S. Lying is an abomination too.
chaotic_resolve
06-18-2007, 11:18 AM
What is so crazy to me is the way some folks want to make homosexuals and lesbians NORMAL.
You know, "it's like any other sin".
Seems that it's the "in thing" to be tolerant toward perversion.
There is NOTHING normal about what they do, it is perverted, nasty, filthy and sinful, not to mention that God calls it an abomination.
I don't believe homosexuality is normal, but I do think it is a sin that simply makes them a sinner, and from God's perspective, He died for them just the same as any other.
P.S. Lying is an abomination too.
Right.
To marginalize the sin with lying and so forth to me is saying well everyone does it. But it is perversion. Adultery-fornication are horrid sins but NOT perversion.
Sin is sin, regardless what it is. Liars shall have their part in hell right along with homosexuals. It's Biblical fact.
HeavenlyOne
06-18-2007, 09:21 PM
Brother E, I knew a fellow who was gay. He came to the Lord around 1980 or so in his mid 30's. Tragically in 1985 or 86, he became sick with AIDS. His decline was very fast and he died of that terrible disease. He was engaged to a lady in the church but sadly they never married. She did take care of him in his final days.
He died full of the Holy Ghost.
I also knew a guy who got saved but had AIDS. Sadly, some in the church including the pastor did the family wrong. I was offended and upset, as I was a friend of the family and I loved their brother as my own.
However, he didn't suffer from AIDS, and I believe God spared him that, even though He took him anyway.
HeavenlyOne
06-18-2007, 09:23 PM
To marginalize the sin with lying and so forth to me is saying well everyone does it. But it is perversion. Adultery-fornication are horrid sins but NOT perversion.
All ground is level at the cross.
Hypothetically speaking, your lying is no better than my lesbianism in the eyes of God, and we will both get the same punishment in the end.
HeavenlyOne
06-18-2007, 09:24 PM
I don't believe homosexuality is normal, but I do think it is a sin that simply makes them a sinner, and from God's perspective, He died for them just the same as any other.
P.S. Lying is an abomination too.
Thank you. I was going to post it but thought I'd wait to see if someone else did first.
HeavenlyOne
06-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Right.
Sin is sin, regardless what it is. Liars shall have their part in hell right along with homosexuals. It's Biblical fact.
Looks like I said something that was already said anyway. Thanks.
I am curious...
How careful should we be in inviting gay people to church?
AND NOBODY SAY ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU BANNED!
I want this to be a nice civilized christian-like thread! lol
Now, say you run into a drag queen on the street, they kind of want to go to church, but they are afraid of being bashed and treated badly in the church. Would you invite them to church, if you had even the slightest bit of hesitation?
Would you treat them the same, if only because they're still a person? What they do in their private life is disgusting. But, it doesn't mean that can't get the Holy Ghost and change. How would you handle this?
I have a friend who is gay. and I have invited her to church...but I have to wonder what would happen when she did come to church. If she would bring her girlfriend, if I should even be attempting to witness to her...
What would you do? And I'm asking this as where I come from, we dont have gay people in our churches (that we know about anyway!) and it's very well known that they will not be used until they're straight.That you would even ask such questions shows a sinful attitude of partiality on the part of many. Homosexuals are sinners just like all other sinners and are just as much in need of salvation as everyone else. Why should you not invite them to church?
In my former denomination there was a running joke that if all the homosexuals left the UPC then the UPC wouldn't have any kind of music ministry.
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?Maybe you should talk to Brother Nello Pozzobon from Beacon Ministries (http://www.beaconministries.net/).
OP_Carl
06-19-2007, 08:08 PM
And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.
I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.
Adult homosexuality is largely the result of childhood sexual abuse. Old patterns die hard. The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people. The truth is a little more seedy. Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals. I'm not making a blanket statement, just suggesting there is greater risk. The reason that the homosexuals coined the term 'homophobia' is so that we'll lower our guard to avoid appearing reactionary.
Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.
Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?
There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.
I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.
And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.
I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.
Adult homosexuality is largely the result of childhood sexual abuse. Old patterns die hard. The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people. The truth is a little more seedy. Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals. I'm not making a blanket statement, just suggesting there is greater risk. The reason that the homosexuals coined the term 'homophobia' is so that we'll lower our guard to avoid appearing reactionary.
Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.
Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?
There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.
I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.
No not a problem for me. Transvestites and crossdressers would have no personal contact with my children.
HeavenlyOne
06-19-2007, 08:57 PM
No not a problem for me. Transvestites and crossdressers would have no personal contact with my children.
Actually, you can't say that. It's not like they wear a sign on their backs.
Truth is, we don't know who could be gay, transvestite, crossdresser, or what have you. They don't always look like those who show up on the Jerry Springer show.
:killinme
HeavenlyOne
06-19-2007, 08:59 PM
And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.
I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.
Adult homosexuality is largely the result of childhood sexual abuse. Old patterns die hard. The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people. The truth is a little more seedy. Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals. I'm not making a blanket statement, just suggesting there is greater risk. The reason that the homosexuals coined the term 'homophobia' is so that we'll lower our guard to avoid appearing reactionary.
Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.
Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?
There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.
I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.
The bigger question is, how will you even know they are such? It's not like they all go around advertising.
There have been children molested in the church by ushers and other 'saints'. They didn't wear signs either, and nobody had a clue until it happened more than once.
The safe thing to do is make sure your children are with you at all times.
Even when in church.
Actually, you can't say that. It's not like they wear a sign on their backs.
Truth is, we don't know who could be gay, transvestite, crossdresser, or what have you. They don't always look like those who show up on the Jerry Springer show.
:killinme
The bigger question is, how will you even know they are such? It's not like they all go around advertising.
There have been children molested in the church by ushers and other 'saints'. They didn't wear signs either, and nobody had a clue until it happened more than once.
The safe thing to do is make sure your children are with you at all times.
Even when in church.
Point well taken. That is why I am cautious of most everyone even those in church. I would be lying however if I would say I am not overly cautious with any known sexual deviants, homosexual or not, saved or unsaved. I know Chan will likely repromend my "bias in the body of Christ". That is something to consider too....
PS Sometimes you can tell the difference! Many of these wannabe-the-other-sexers have cheap surgens & poor quality hormone treatment... cause I can spot'um. Makes me wonder though - if there was some I did not spot.
HeavenlyOne
06-19-2007, 09:51 PM
Point well taken. That is why I am cautious of most everyone even those in church. I would be lying however if I would say I am not overly cautious with any known sexual deviants, homosexual or not, saved or unsaved. I know Chan will likely repromend my "bias in the body of Christ". That is something to consider too....
PS Sometimes you can tell the difference! Many of these wannabe-the-other-sexers have cheap surgens & poor quality hormone treatment... cause I can spot'um. Makes me wonder though - if there was some I did not spot.
I, too, don't trust church people in general, and I watch the SS kids like a hawk when I'm there!
As for spotting them, one still can't be too sure. I've seen some ugly women! I've also seen pretty men. I've also seen one or the other where I wasn't exactly sure what they were!
And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.So, you're saying that they can never really be welcomed into the body of Christ? Where does the BIBLE say you have to do this? I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!
I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.I doubt that you agree because of what you said at the beginning of your post!
Adult homosexuality is largely the result of childhood sexual abuse. Often, but not always.
Old patterns die hard.Yes, and you obviously don't trust God to break the pattern. Another old pattern that dies hard is the sinful nature that every human has. Should we all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)?
The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people.Many do present themselves that way, just as many heterosexuals do.
The truth is a little more seedy.Just like for heterosexuals.
Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals.What PROOF do you have of this? Where is the evidence that there are more children molested by adults of the same sex than by adults of the opposite sex? Also, if it's prepubescent children being molested then the perpetrators are not of either heterosexual or homosexual orientation, they are of pedophile orientation, meaning that they have a sexual/romantic attraction to prepubescent children.
I'm not making a blanket statementNo, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them).
just suggesting there is greater risk.Nonsense!!!! You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. NEITHER HETEROSEXUALS NOR HOMOSEXUALS ARE ATTRACTED TO PREPUBESCENT CHILDREN, PEDOPHILES ARE!!!!
The reason that the homosexuals coined the term 'homophobia' is so that we'll lower our guard to avoid appearing reactionary.First of all, it isn't clear that they coined the phrase; it likely came from some psychologist (a practitioner of a particularly wicked worldly philosophy) and it was probably intended initially to describe people (heterosexuals in particular) who genuinely fear homosexuals or homosexuality but the leftists and the homosexual rights activists have taken the term and applied it to anyone who doesn't fully accept homosexuality as being essentially the same as heterosexuality.
Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.Don't give me that "protecting the children" garbage!!!! You're basically saying that even though God forgives certain sinners we will continue to treat them as if they're still in their sin and as if God has not forgiven them! This attitude of yours is just plain evil because you slap God in the face and say to Him, "You can forgive anyone you want but don't expect us to treat them as forgiven."
Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?Cross-dressers ARE transvestites! More proof that you don't know what you're talking about. And if it's a man dressed as a woman in the ladies room looking at someone's teen daughter with a man's eyes, the man is a heterosexual (like a great many cross-dressers).
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?Translation: it doesn't matter that God has forgiven their sin and started a healing work in them, our job is to treat them with contempt and suspicion, never really welcoming them into the body of Christ.
There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.You do realize that this thread is about HOMOSEXUALS and NOT PEDOPHILES, don't you?
I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.The solution is simple: repent of the wickedness that is in your heart, let God be God, and receive into His body those whom He has forgiven!
Point well taken. That is why I am cautious of most everyone even those in church. I would be lying however if I would say I am not overly cautious with any known sexual deviants, homosexual or not, saved or unsaved. I know Chan will likely repromend my "bias in the body of Christ". That is something to consider too....
PS Sometimes you can tell the difference! Many of these wannabe-the-other-sexers have cheap surgens & poor quality hormone treatment... cause I can spot'um. Makes me wonder though - if there was some I did not spot.Where does the Bible tell us to treat people with suspicion - particularly people whom God has forgiven? I'm sorry that you and others can't see the evil in your hearts when you go around refusing to truly receive into the body of Christ those whom Christ has forgiven. Did Jesus ever say to the woman caught in adultery, "I forgive you but I'm not going to trust you and I'm going to keep watching you to make sure you don't go back into adultery"? Are you aware that more child molestations are committed by men on little girls than by men on little boys? Are you aware that most molestations are committed by family members or friends of the family? Maybe you should be watching the parents and the cousins and the friends of the family instead of watching the occasional stranger who comes into your church seeking forgiveness for homosexual sin and healing from homosexual attraction (neither of which have anything to do with child molestation).
You and others here show your utter ignorance - first by denying the power of God, second by denying people that God forgave an equal place in the body of Christ with you (the sin of partiality), and third by confusing homosexuality with pedophilia, transvestitism (cross-dressing) and transsexuality (gender identity disorder - generally treated by trying to change the physical sex to match the sex the person thinks he or she is).
I, too, don't trust church people in general, and I watch the SS kids like a hawk when I'm there!Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?
As for spotting them, one still can't be too sure. I've seen some ugly women! I've also seen pretty men. I've also seen one or the other where I wasn't exactly sure what they were!I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.
Thumper
06-20-2007, 10:58 AM
I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?
I have wondered the same thing Elder. I suspect that if it is so the reason that we don't know of it is because it is not the kind of thing that you stand and testify about.
"Bless God, God delivered me from ...."
The social stigma attached to it precludes a lot of people from testifying about it.
RevDWW
06-20-2007, 11:32 AM
I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!
Oh for 100% sure God can change sinners, but He also allows sinners to do some changing of their own. If a sinner wants to change he/she can change, but God is not going to force the change if they are not sincere.
How is it you presume to judge the evil hearts in so many Christians that God has changed????
RevDWW
06-20-2007, 11:37 AM
Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?
I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.
1 Corinthians 5:11 - 13 (KJV) 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
How can you put out a brother that is acting wickedly if you don't know they are acting wickedly? Wouldn't you have to see their actions and judge them to be behaving wickedly?
HeavenlyOne
06-20-2007, 11:38 AM
Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?
Chan, to quote you.....'show me where I said I treat people with distrust'.
I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.
I've seen worse!
Chan, to quote you.....'show me where I said I treat people with distrust'.It's in your statement, "I, too, don't trust church people in general."
Oh for 100% sure God can change sinners, but He also allows sinners to do some changing of their own. If a sinner wants to change he/she can change, but God is not going to force the change if they are not sincere.But it's not your place to treat anyone with suspicion! What's being suggested is that if someone has struggled with a certain sin, he is to automatically be treated with suspicion and we're to always hold that person's sin against him - as if to say "Even if God forgives you, the Church does not." And, yes, that is evil.
How is it you presume to judge the evil hearts in so many Christians that God has changed????It is evil to treat those whom God has forgiven with suspicion as if God has not forgiven them and as if they have never repented of their sin (there would be no forgiveness if they hadn't repented).
1 Corinthians 5:11 - 13 (KJV) 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
How can you put out a brother that is acting wickedly if you don't know they are acting wickedly? Wouldn't you have to see their actions and judge them to be behaving wickedly?But we're not talking about people who ARE acting wickedly, we're talking about treating people with suspicion in case they act wickedly. I can't believe that you would interpret the passage you quoted to mean that we should be watching each other to see if we're acting wickedly. The context of the passage indicates that we would know whether someone was claiming to be a Christian but was living a sinful lifestyle.
I have wondered the same thing Elder. I suspect that if it is so the reason that we don't know of it is because it is not the kind of thing that you stand and testify about.
"Bless God, God delivered me from ...."
The social stigma attached to it precludes a lot of people from testifying about it.Is it social stigma or is it the evil in the hearts of so-called "Christians" who will continue to treat that person as if God had not delivered him - like some here are advocating?
HeavenlyOne
06-20-2007, 12:16 PM
It's in your statement, "I, too, don't trust church people in general."
That doesn't mean I treat them with distrust.
Also, you are taking my statement out of context as well. Key word......general.
It's a general statement, meaning no specifics are mentioned.
That doesn't mean I treat them with distrust.To fail to trust them is to treat them with distrust because you are withholding your trust from them.
Also, you are taking my statement out of context as well. Key word......general.No, I took it in its context and it is still reflective of an attitude of the heart.
It's a general statement, meaning no specifics are mentioned.A general statement made in the context of a thread that was originally about homosexuals but that ignorant people here have changed to include pedophiles.
HeavenlyOne
06-20-2007, 01:04 PM
To fail to trust them is to treat them with distrust because you are withholding your trust from them.
The Bible doesn't command me to trust everyone. I have to love everyone, but I don't have to trust them. I can love them and not trust them.
No, I took it in its context and it is still reflective of an attitude of the heart.
Ah, so you are the expert on the attitude of my heart.....
A general statement made in the context of a thread that was originally about homosexuals but that ignorant people here have changed to include pedophiles.
I'm not one of those people.
The Bible doesn't command me to trust everyone. I have to love everyone, but I don't have to trust them. I can love them and not trust them.Distrust is not an act of love.
Ah, so you are the expert on the attitude of my heart.....It doesn't take an expert to know that what you had said was indeed reflective of an attitude of the heart.
I'm not one of those people.I didn't say you were!
Subdued
06-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Distrust is not an act of love.
It doesn't take an expert to know that what you had said was indeed reflective of an attitude of the heart.
I didn't say you were!
Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?
OP_Carl
06-20-2007, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by OP_Carl
And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.
So, you're saying that they can never really be welcomed into the body of Christ? Where does the BIBLE say you have to do this? I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!
I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.
I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.
I doubt that you agree because of what you said at the beginning of your post! At least this helps me to understand you a little better.
Old patterns die hard.
Yes, and you obviously don't trust God to break the pattern. Another old pattern that dies hard is the sinful nature that every human has. Should we all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)? Yes.
The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people.
Many do present themselves that way, just as many heterosexuals do.
The truth is a little more seedy.
Just like for heterosexuals. Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.
Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals.
What PROOF do you have of this? Where is the evidence that there are more children molested by adults of the same sex than by adults of the opposite sex? Also, if it's prepubescent children being molested then the perpetrators are not of either heterosexual or homosexual orientation, they are of pedophile orientation, meaning that they have a sexual/romantic attraction to prepubescent children. The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.
The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.
I'm not making a blanket statement
No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them). I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.
just suggesting there is greater risk.
Nonsense!!!! You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?
NEITHER HETEROSEXUALS NOR HOMOSEXUALS ARE ATTRACTED TO PREPUBESCENT CHILDREN, PEDOPHILES ARE!!!! I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.
Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?
Cross-dressers ARE transvestites! More proof that you don't know what you're talking about. And if it's a man dressed as a woman in the ladies room looking at someone's teen daughter with a man's eyes, the man is a heterosexual (like a great many cross-dressers). Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.
I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.
The solution is simple: repent of the wickedness that is in your heart, let God be God, and receive into His body those whom He has forgiven! You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:
Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.
Don't give me that "protecting the children" garbage!!!! You're basically saying that even though God forgives certain sinners we will continue to treat them as if they're still in their sin and as if God has not forgiven them! This attitude of yours is just plain evil because you slap God in the face and say to Him, "You can forgive anyone you want but don't expect us to treat them as forgiven."
:
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?
Translation: it doesn't matter that God has forgiven their sin and started a healing work in them, our job is to treat them with contempt and suspicion, never really welcoming them into the body of Christ.
There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.
You do realize that this thread is about HOMOSEXUALS and NOT PEDOPHILES, don't you?
Here is the trouble:
1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.
2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.
3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.
4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.
5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.
I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!
If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6
The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.
I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.
Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.
Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?No.
Subdued
06-21-2007, 09:37 AM
No.
I disagree.
MissBrattified
06-21-2007, 09:51 AM
Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?
Of course it is. I love my children dearly, but I don't always trust them to make good judgment calls or to do the right thing, because their maturity is lacking. So I supervise them and edit their decisions as necessary. My trust in them will grow over time, and if they violate they trust with bad decisions, or lying or whatever else, then they will have to work to regain it. In the meantime, I love them completely, in spite of their faults. But I would be stupid to trust them implicitly.
Likewise with other people...love them, but trust them? No way. Trust and love are not synonymous. There are folks who I might place trust in business-wise, because they are credible and have a good reputation, such as a bank or accountant, but I don't "love" them. I do place trust in them. If they were to lose my funds or squander my money, I would no longer trust them and would place my money elsewhere.
Simple enough concept, really.
Old Paths
06-21-2007, 10:05 AM
I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.
At least this helps me to understand you a little better.
Yes.
Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.
The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.
The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.
I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.
How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?
I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.
Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.
You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:
Here is the trouble:
1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.
2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.
3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.
4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.
5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.
I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!
If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6
The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.
I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.
Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.
Excellent points.
I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.But no one here is saying to accept sin. What's being said is that if someone has come to faith in Christ then we are to receive that person as a brother or sister in Christ and NOT to treat them with suspicion and, thereby, holding them at arm's length.
At least this helps me to understand you a little better.
I doubt that very much.
Yes.You really believe that we should all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)? Where does the Bible tell us to be suspicious of each other like this?
Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.It sounds to me like in your little world there aren't very many homosexuals.
The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.I sincerely doubt the veracity of what he is claiming.
The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.No, homosexuals are not statistically more likely than heterosexuals to consider pedophilia. Homosexuals are homosexuals, not pedophiles. Heterosexuals are heterosexuals, not pedophiles. Pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction ("orientation") all by itself. As for the pederasty, I guess you've never heard of the numerous guys in their 20s (and some in their 30s) dating 15 and 16 year-old girls, eh?
I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.I didn't call you evil! I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between saying that something you said was evil and saying you are evil. Read the statement again and notice the bolded parts: "No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them)." Now, show me how any of that says YOU are evil!
How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?It isn't about proving a point. You clearly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to homosexuality.
I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.This thread isn't about pedophiles, it's about homosexuals. If you want to talk about pedophiles, go start another thread!
Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.I would expect someone who seems to think he knows what he's talking about to get it right!
You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:Start a separate thread.
Here is the trouble:
1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.
There is no overlap. Homosexuality is not the same thing as pedophilia - neither is heterosexuality the same as pedophilia!
2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.There is NEVER any justification for treating someone whom GOD has forgiven as if he is not forgiven - which is exactly what you're demanding we do. It's not your place to deny someone whom God has forgiven the place in the body of Christ that God has assigned. If you want to talk about protecting children, go start another thread!
3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.Not relevant! If you're so interested in protecting children (I don't believe that you are, I think you're just spewing forth hate for a certain group of people), then you really need to be looking at the group that does the most molestations - FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS OF THE FAMILY!!!!!!
4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.I'm just sick and tired of people like you who don't have a clue about homosexuality spewing forth this kind of garbage that ends up turning homosexuals away from Christ instead of to Christ.
5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.More evidence that you don't know what you're talking about! You need to just butt out of this topic entirely and leave it to those of us who actually know more than just a little something about it. No one here is supporting "gay rights." This thread is about homosexuals who come into the church. What do we do with them? How are they to be treated? Your approach is clearly the kind of vile approach the Pharisees would have taken "Oh, no, they're homosexuals, we don't want those kind of people in our church." It's people like you who drive homosexuals who would otherwise be seeking healing of their unnatural attraction and victory over their sin out of the Church and into the waiting and welcoming arms of the gay rights activists and the so-called "gay churches."
I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!Yes, I do mind because you don't know what you're talking about!
If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6 But if you were really interested in protecting children, you wouldn't be talking about homosexuals as if they were pedophiles (again, pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction all its own - pedophiles are pedophiles, not heterosexuals or homosexuals), you'd be talking about the family members and friends of families who do most of the molesting! You'd be trying to protect children from their families just as a precaution.
The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.I don't give a rat's behind what the courts do! Again, most molestations are done by family members and friends of the family. The Church is in the business of bringing sinners to Christ - they won't come to Christ if you are pushing them away from Him!
I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.
Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.Yes, you are in favor of ostracizing homosexuals just because you want everyone to automatically assume that homosexuals are really pedophiles and that they're going to be looking to molest children! Again, most of the people who molest children are members of the child's family or are friends of the child's family. Yet, you don't seem to be too concerned about them.
Let's get back to the topic of this thread and stay there!
HeavenlyOne
06-21-2007, 01:11 PM
I disagree.
I do too.
For instance, I love my son, but I don't trust him to be out at midnight on the streets.
I love my daughter, but I don't trust her with my money. :D
OP_Carl
06-21-2007, 02:56 PM
I perceive there are some underlying fundamental differences that might prove difficult to reconcile.
1) You argue that watching our new brothers and sisters as they grow spiritually is treating them with suspicion, which adds up to segregation, treating the saved like they’re still sinners, and the sin of judgment in your book.
I’m sure gays are treated incorrectly in all kinds of churches. But it doesn’t happen with everybody, everywhere.
2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.
You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.
3) You prefer ad hominem arguments to ad hoc arguments.
This is always a losing strategy. Your presumption of my ignorance will be your downfall, debate-wise.
4) Here is the main problem: You are using the humanistic view of homosexuality, not the Apostolic view. Beneath it all, you have disassociated homosexual behavior from spiritual condition.
The Apostolic view is that all sin is a choice. There is no exception for homosexuality, that some people are born gay. It is the result of environment. That environment often includes some sort of sexual contact early in life, or very poor experiences in general with fathers/father figures.
Your approach is clearly the kind of vile approach the Pharisees would have taken "Oh, no, they're homosexuals, we don't want those kind of people in our church." It's people like you who drive homosexuals who would otherwise be seeking healing of their unnatural attraction and victory over their sin out of the Church and into the waiting and welcoming arms of the gay rights activists and the so-called "gay churches."
I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.
There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.
The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right?
Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?
From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.
From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.
I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?
HeavenlyOne
06-21-2007, 03:01 PM
I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?
Are you aware of Chan's background relating to homosexuality?
He's an authority and knows how to deal with those issues.
I perceive there are some underlying fundamental differences that might prove difficult to reconcile.
1) You argue that watching our new brothers and sisters as they grow spiritually is treating them with suspicion, which adds up to segregation, treating the saved like they’re still sinners, and the sin of judgment in your book.No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc.
I’m sure gays are treated incorrectly in all kinds of churches. But it doesn’t happen with everybody, everywhere.I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right.
2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.
You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.
Yes, they are entirely unrelated. Pedophilia (sexual/romantic attraction to prepubsecent children) is a sexual "orientation" all its own.
4) Here is the main problem: You are using the humanistic view of homosexuality, not the Apostolic view. Beneath it all, you have disassociated homosexual behavior from spiritual condition.There is nothing in what I said that even remotely resembles "the humanistic view" of homosexuality (as if all humanists held the same view regarding homosexuality).
The Apostolic view is that all sin is a choice. There is no exception for homosexuality, that some people are born gay. It is the result of environment. That environment often includes some sort of sexual contact early in life, or very poor experiences in general with fathers/father figures.No one here has said that sin was not a choice. Homosexual sin is a choice! Attraction (narrowly defined as the autonomic physical/emotional response to certain stimuli) is not a choice. But, of course, we're not talking about mere attraction here, we're talking about behavior.
I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.
There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.
NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me!
The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right? What are you talking about???? No one here said anything about an innate condition!
Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?Nonsense!
From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.Never mind the fact that most child molestations are committed by males against females. There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia.
From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.Generic accounts of "counselors"? Oh, so now you're promoting that psychology garbage! By the way, the same thing can be said of sexually deviant heterosexuals (e.g. those into BDSM, for example).
I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality. The unnatural attraction is not something one chooses. By asking your question, you again show that you really don't know what you're talking about. But let me indulge you here. Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin.
You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about!
OP_Carl
06-22-2007, 06:13 PM
No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc. Well, I think I understand what you're railing against here. I would consider it a favor if you would briefly fill me in on the specific actions that fit into this category of treatment. Then, contrast what you consider the wrong way with what you specifically do that is different, and elaborate on the results you are seeing.
I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right. Judgmentalism rears its ugly head in a variety of circumstances.
NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me! The "nonsense" coming in to play here is your equating my statements regarding spiritual oppression and persuasion with outright demon possession. Your petulant demand is wasted. When people embrace sin of any type, they remove the spiritual protection of God, and are spiritually assaulted by the devil. Their own flesh will carry them quite a ways into the wilderness of sin, but the continued acceptance of sin gradually opens the door for the sinner to be influenced by evil spirits. This principle applies to many forms of sin, not just the sexual.
There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia. Pretty tough to prove or disprove. I daresay we could entertain ourselves by polling Apostolic preachers about this one.
Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality. The ones I have known did.
Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin. So, Chan, is there a spiritual aspect to gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin? Please describe it.
You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about! Since you know what we're talking about, and I don't, I would expect that, rather than attempt to suppress discussion, you would welcome it, so that you could persuade the uninformed and misinformed in a confident and expository manner, and so that there would be fewer of us that remain in ignorance.
crakjak
06-22-2007, 10:05 PM
I have preached and worked with homosexuals hoping for the best. I just have not seen any change for good. But others have reported they have so I rejoice. The scriptures are clear they can be saved. I would attempt to see any one of them saved.
Bro. you must believe not only that it is possible, but that God will use you to minister to them. And that your ministry will be effective, your presentation (post on this thread) is full of doubt, and by your own words your efforts to date have been ineffective. Maybe an adjustment in you will bring a change in your results. Just my thoughts, may not apply to you at all.:search
berkeley
06-22-2007, 10:08 PM
Bro. you must believe not only that it is possible, but that God will use you to minister to them. And that your ministry will be effective, your presentation (post on this thread) is full of doubt, and by your own words your efforts to date have been ineffective. Maybe an adjustment in you will bring a change in your results. Just my thoughts, may not apply to you at all.:search
I doubt he has had any dealings with homosexuals. I find it very doubtful that there is a closet in Indiana, and they are all lined up, walking out in an orderly fashion.
berkeley
06-23-2007, 12:49 AM
1w3-tOfGEtA
crakjak
06-23-2007, 01:07 PM
I doubt he has had any dealings with homosexuals. I find it very doubtful that there is a closet in Indiana, and they are all lined up, walking out in an orderly fashion.
I believe Steve mentioned in a previous post that he had ministered to homosexual in the past, however without any continuing effect.
Rhoni
06-23-2007, 02:10 PM
I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.
There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.
The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right?
Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?
From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.
From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.
I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?
I do agree that homosexuality is one of the many spirits from the pits of hell. I do agree that our society is promoting the 'normalcy' of what they consider to be an orientation. I do agree there is a homosexual agenda.
There are categories and subcategories to most things, and this is one of them. Reasearch bears out that many/most/a high percentage of those who claim to be homosexual were molested during the latency period of their development. They became hypersexualized because they were the victim of a victim of a victim, and now have become perpetrators.
Those molested have:
*gender identity issues
*sexual maladjustment
*trust issues
*boundary issues
*anger
*oppositional defiant attitudes and behaviors.
Those who seek and want healing emotionally, sexually, physically, and mentally can find it...like we all find it...at the foot of the cross.
For those who have been vulnerable to the homosexual spirit through a friend or even a spouse they battle it until they die, or until it wholly becomes lost in Christ.
For those who continually entertain the spirit of homosexuality...they take on the agenda from hell. As is obvious in many of our more prominenant public figures: Rosie O'Donald, and Ellen. The worst mistake the Christian American can do is to put Hillary Clinton in office because, once in office, I am sure there will be a "coming out" party for all homosexuals.
If you live in an area or have relatives who entertain the idea that they are homosexual...know this...that spirit is trying to attach itself to you and you need to be aware of it. Pray for the homosexuals in your family, in our churches, and friends in our lives. The spirit of homosexuality is a strong one that gets fed in our culture more than many other sexual spirits that plague our society.
Pray for our children who go to college because it is there the homosexual agenda is promoted in every class and it is RAD to be Bi-sexual. We need to humble ourselves and pray. Do not mistreat, do not judge, do not harrass people who are homosexual. Show them mercy lest you yourself be tempted.
Just feel like preaching today.
Blessings, Rhoni
berkeley
06-23-2007, 02:51 PM
Those molested have:
*gender identity issues
*sexual maladjustment
*trust issues
*boundary issues
*anger
*oppositional defiant attitudes and behaviors.
That's the truth! Thank God for the saving power of Jesus Christ, Amen.
P.S.
Rhon, you do not have to wrap tags around each sentence.
You should click on the size font before you begin to type,
then space it apart in like manner:
[ SIZE="3"]
[/SIZE ]
Type in the space provided. :)
OP_Carl
06-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Should we interpret Chan's silence in the traditional fashion, which means he cannot refute my points or answer my questions, or do we start a prayer chain because he has been overcome by the sickness and tiredness I induced in him? :sly
Just when I was beginning to get curious about his point of view, too. :(
While I am here:
There is NEVER any justification for treating someone whom GOD has forgiven as if he is not forgiven - which is exactly what you're demanding we do. It's not your place to deny someone whom God has forgiven the place in the body of Christ that God has assigned.
Let's find a pastor who is willing to delegate management of church finances to a known embezzler, con man, or thief who has "recently" been saved. Or even just a person who has been through bankruptcy within the last year. There is a time and place for blind faith, and there is a time and place for wisdom.
God Bless you and keep you.
trent4
06-27-2007, 03:37 PM
It is not unusual for a gay/lesbian person to be at my church on Sunday.
We welcome them just like any other person.
This past Sun night a guy that I was best friends with in middle and high school came to church, I don't know when he had been to church last. But I was so glad to see him there, and what made me more happy is when my husband came off the platform and hugged him and told him it was good to see him.
I thought the message that was preached, "I've got my mind made up", was perfect. The minister talked about making up your mind to live for Jesus 100% and not letting anything hinder you from being at church everytime you can. I am sure he is not the only one that needed to hear it, but God knows who is coming to every service.
If we don't show them the love of God, who will.
Subdued
06-27-2007, 03:57 PM
2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.
You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.
I'd like to see your source on these statistics, please. Also, what exactly are the statistics of which you speak?
OP_Carl
06-27-2007, 07:43 PM
I'd like to see your source on these statistics, please. Also, what exactly are the statistics of which you speak?
Family Research Council article making the connection with data and citations from journals reporting on a wide variety of topics from behavior to crime statistics to medicine to psychology (http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=WA03I35)
Overview of pedophilia by the director of the FRC (http://us2000.org/cfmc/Pedophilia.pdf)
WorldNetDaily article showing the interconnections within the advocacy groups (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431) This article cites some of the work being compiled by Dr. Reisman that debunks the Kinsey report, a fraudulent report that has been used as an authoritative source in the promotion of sexual deviancy by psychological associations for the last 50 years.
I hadn't heard of this group that claims to debunk myths of the gay agenda (http://traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php) Their web page cites some studies, even if it is a little hokey.
You're sure to notice that the articles in which these data are gathered to draw the connection are most easily found in sources that are considered biased or even fringe. The mainstream news organs, looking at the same unassailable underlying data, give a yawn and move on. They are either uninterested, fearful of appearing nonconformist, or complicit in the agenda.
Anything remotely resembling criticism of gays, minorities, and other protected special interest groups simply isn't done in our "enlightened" society today. I'm not saying that you shouldn't take the sources of the articles with a grain of salt, I'm saying: Who else would report it?
Invite them anyone into Gods house and love them. Show them the way and God will change them and bring them into the light.
Trac:13loads
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