The Definition of an Independent

[The Closer]

The best that I have been able to come up with is: Doesnt want to pay dues. Do you think different?

[Hoovie]

How much money are we talking about?? I have heard this before but have a hard time believing it.

[Consapostolic1]

Self-supporting

[Sheltiedad]

not needing a social group's blessing to spread the gospel...

[philjones]

Aw come on you guys... the definition is quoted here all the time... Definition of an Independent: it ain't smoke if it ain't coming out of my chimney! LOL :)

[COOPER]

Aw come on you guys... the definition is quoted here all the time... Definition of an Independent: it ain't smoke if it ain't coming out of my chimney! LOL :)

:lol good one!

[OP_Carl]

The best that I have been able to come up with is: Doesnt want to pay dues. Do you think different?

Independents I've talked to compare district presbyterships to "having kings and lords over you."

That may be true, but when the Independent pastor goes ape-poo-on-the-brain (entertains deviant theology) his parishoners are without recourse. One guy losing it results in a whole church set adrift, if not worse.

At least with an organization, the lay leaders can petition the district. But it isn't as though a letter or two results in "district stormtroopers" evicting errant pastors from office and parsonage. UPC pastors serve according to the by-laws of their local assembly, and those by-laws can be modified to the benefit of a pastor.

It's more of an accountability group than tiers of management, at least what I've seen of it. And the good-ole'-boys club can come in to play with this and generate coverups and worse.

Neither system is perfect. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

But organizational affiliation offers greater assurance of doctrinal continuity to the congregation, admittedly at the expense of the "job security" of the pastor.

So my take on Independents is that they are railing against an inaccurate construct.

[TalkLady]

not needing a social group's blessing to spread the gospel...

That's a start on a good definition!!!....Maybe it's someone not willing to play religious politics. Jesus Christ was very independent when he walked on earth!!

[RevDWW]

Independents I've talked to compare district presbyterships to "having kings and lords over you."

That may be true, but when the Independent pastor goes ape-poo-on-the-brain (entertains deviant theology) his parishoners are without recourse. One guy losing it results in a whole church set adrift, if not worse.

At least with an organization, the lay leaders can petition the district. But it isn't as though a letter or two results in "district stormtroopers" evicting errant pastors from office and parsonage. UPC pastors serve according to the by-laws of their local assembly, and those by-laws can be modified to the benefit of a pastor.

It's more of an accountability group than tiers of management, at least what I've seen of it. And the good-ole'-boys club can come in to play with this and generate coverups and worse.

Neither system is perfect. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

But organizational affiliation offers greater assurance of doctrinal continuity to the congregation, admittedly at the expense of the "job security" of the pastor.

So my take on Independents is that they are railing against an inaccurate construct.

Without recourse? Have their legs been cut off and only the errant Pastor pushes their wheelchair? Come on you can walk from any organization when the leadership goes gaga.

I do agree that "both have their strengths and weaknesses." :nod

[OP_Carl]

Without recourse? Have their legs been cut off and only the errant Pastor pushes their wheelchair? Come on you can walk from any organization when the leadership goes gaga.

I do agree that "both have their strengths and weaknesses." :nod

Yes, without recourse because Independent pastors often own or control the ownership of the church building. So, in the instance of an errant pastor, the congregation loses the blood, sweat, tears, time, materials and cash money they have invested in the church property.

Sure you can leave, but you're leaving close brothers and sisters, and a part of yourself, behind.

An organizationally affiliated church congregation can (theoretically) swap the errant pastor for a (hopefully) truth-loving new pastor in the same church and congregational setting.

Of course in reality pastoral changes are usually associated with mass departures, church splits, blatant nepotism, and other unpleasantness.

The situation offers no easy choices, and, like I said, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to this.

[Brother Price]

What is an Independent? Basically, this is a man who separates himself from organizational governance, and is focused solely on Christ and the lost. This is not the case for every minister, but for the ones I know.

[TalkLady]

What is an Independent? Basically, this is a man who separates himself from organizational governance, and is focused solely on Christ and the lost. This is not the case for every minister, but for the ones I know.

That is another addition to "The Definition"....I like that!

[simplyme]

What is an Independent? Basically, this is a man who separates himself from organizational governance, and is focused solely on Christ and the lost. This is not the case for every minister, but for the ones I know.

Good one! I've seen both sides now..and have come to realize much more than I had ever anticipated..I enjoy this more.

[Thumper]

Independents I've talked to compare district presbyterships to "having kings and lords over you."

That may be true, but when the Independent pastor goes ape-poo-on-the-brain (entertains deviant theology) his parishoners are without recourse. One guy losing it results in a whole church set adrift, if not worse.

At least with an organization, the lay leaders can petition the district. But it isn't as though a letter or two results in "district stormtroopers" evicting errant pastors from office and parsonage. UPC pastors serve according to the by-laws of their local assembly, and those by-laws can be modified to the benefit of a pastor.

It's more of an accountability group than tiers of management, at least what I've seen of it. And the good-ole'-boys club can come in to play with this and generate coverups and worse.

Neither system is perfect. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

But organizational affiliation offers greater assurance of doctrinal continuity to the congregation, admittedly at the expense of the "job security" of the pastor.

So my take on Independents is that they are railing against an inaccurate construct.

Yeah look at the consistent position on salvation that is offered by the UPCI.

:killinme:killinme:killinme

[Thumper]

Yes, without recourse because Independent pastors often own or control the ownership of the church building. So, in the instance of an errant pastor, the congregation loses the blood, sweat, tears, time, materials and cash money they have invested in the church property.

Sure you can leave, but you're leaving close brothers and sisters, and a part of yourself, behind.

An organizationally affiliated church congregation can (theoretically) swap the errant pastor for a (hopefully) truth-loving new pastor in the same church and congregational setting.

Of course in reality pastoral changes are usually associated with mass departures, church splits, blatant nepotism, and other unpleasantness.

The situation offers no easy choices, and, like I said, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to this.

You apparently don't know very many independents. Independent churches are are governed like any other local assembly. With a constitution and bylaws and some sort of oversight. I've never met one that wasn't. You appear to be railing against an inaccurate construct. Best get your facts in order before you spout off like this.

:)

[ILuvFPC]

Maybe folks who don't want a bunch of needless organizational drama and religious politics to interfere with the winning of lost souls and bringing glory to Jesus Christ!

[Thumper]

Maybe folks who don't want a bunch of needless organizational drama and religious politics to interfere with the winning of lost souls and bringing glory to Jesus Christ!


Hog wash your just rebelious by nature. If not you would be chomping at the bit to bring yourself and your church under the umbrella of an organization.

Didn't you know that James was the first General Superintendant of the UPCI

[rgcraig]

not needing a social group's blessing to spread the gospel...

I tend to agree with this one.

Or, they don't agree 100% with everything the organization does, so instead of being a part of something they don't support 100% they feel it's best to step out on their own.

[John Atkinson]

independant. could be good, could be bad. depends on the reason. and the attitude with which that reason is employed.

[ILuvFPC]

Hog wash your just rebelious by nature. If not you would be chomping at the bit to bring yourself and your church under the umbrella of an organization.

Didn't you know that James was the first General Superintendant of the UPCI

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[OP_Carl]

:hmmmYou apparently don't know very many independents. Independent churches are are governed like any other local assembly. With a constitution and bylaws and some sort of oversight. I've never met one that wasn't.
I've dealt extensively with one that was owned and governed solely by the pastor. I've had a little exposure to two others. The rest I hear :rolleyes2 from pastor friends.

You appear to be railing against an inaccurate construct. Best get your facts in order before you spout off like this.

:)

I only appear to be doing that to the eyes of those who believe that all independents are governed like any other local assembly. They're not. Maybe it would be fair to say most. But not all.

Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet Pot. :hmmm

[Thumper]

:hmmm
I've dealt extensively with one that was owned and governed solely by the pastor. I've had a little exposure to two others. The rest I hear :rolleyes2 from pastor friends.



I only appear to be doing that to the eyes of those who believe that all independents are governed like any other local assembly. They're not. Maybe it would be fair to say most. But not all.

Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet Pot. :hmmm

Three huh?

Oh yeah and some third hand gossip. Sounds like a terrible problem going on in your area.

:)

[tndixiemom]

I can only speak from my experiences. I attended a UPC church with my grandmother for years before she passed away. I know to this day that these people do care about me but at the same time would be a bit stand offish. I was not raised in the church and have just been a member for 2 yrs. I have struggled with my walk with Christ and the standards. I now attend a Independent church and would not change it for the world. These people have took me for what I am and have loved me through all my struggles that I have. I love my church family!!!! I do not know where I would be without them today. This is just my opinion, but for me, I will take a independent church.

[Nahum]

The best that I have been able to come up with is: Doesnt want to pay dues. Do you think different?

I once had a bible college instructor tell me that he didn't trust any independent minister. He said anyone unwilling to submit to an organizational authority was rebellious and a "loose canon".

Can't say as I agree with that.

[Sherri]

I once had a bible college instructor tell me that he didn't trust any independent minister. He said anyone unwilling to submit to an organizational authority was rebellious and a "loose canon".

Can't say as I agree with that.
We are independent, but are set up as an actual organization and have other churches and pastors ordained under our covering. However, my husband is accountable to men in his life, and he also has a deacon board at each church. Just because you don't belong to some organization that people recognize doesn't mean that you are loosey-goosey and have no one speaking into your life. I do know some pastors like this, who totally rule the roost, but they are not the majority.

[Nahum]

We are independent, but are set up as an actual organization and have other churches and pastors ordained under our covering. However, my husband is accountable to men in his life, and he also has a deacon board at each church. Just because you don't belong to some organization that people recognize doesn't mean that you are loosey-goosey and have no one speaking into your life. I do know some pastors like this, who totally rule the roost, but they are not the majority.

Suuuuuureee Sherri,

we believe you. :killinme