Submission? Or Power and Control?

[ILG]

Someone's insulted?

OK, IT is Gospel in the organization? No it isn't, because there are UPCI brothers and sisters who don't believe it. They are insulted when you broad brush them with all the rest. ILG and Emma Bonecruncher have been doing this for how long? So, she is a seasoned rodeo rider, and she and I have been at this for who knows how long. She is a pro, and no neophyte. PO, just like ndavid so correctly brought to everyone's attention. We have been at it for how long?

So, now that we got all that out of the way, we shall continue.

She didn't say ILG feels insulted-she said stop insulting ILG. Two different things.

[ILG]

Well, then I should say the people I have been familiar with do still believe this. I don't personally know a lot of people who don't. Except here maybe.

I wouldn't have an issue with the discussion if those wanting to engage with ILG would simply address her point in a scholarly fashion instead of a bunch of mean spirited bullying. I agree with ILG, it is not becoming of a Christian.

She posted some text that was a bit startling and wanted to run that by us. My faith is everything. Without it I can't please God. It is troubling, IMO, to have hair placed on the same level of faith and power of the Holy Ghost.

The problem comes in when it becomes a gospel that is earned or kept by keeping things that are not clearly biblical rather than a gospel that you don't earn and can't boast about.

[ILG]

I have NEVER heard RR or L.S.esque teachings taught at FPC Palm Bay. So don't claim is it gospel for the organization.

Standards are taught using scripture in the discipleship class.

People are welcome to come to church as they are. My Sister comes to church in pants and with cut hair and no one makes her feel unwanted.

IF you want to be a part of a church ministry or platform ministry it is expected that you follow church standards.

the UPC is a fellowship of churches, not all are alike in every respect.

If someone has had a bad experience 20 years past, they should get past it and move on.

If that is the case, every preacher who was delivered from alcohol better never mention it after 20 years because they should get past it and move on. And if 20 years is the cut off date, I have a number to go yet. ;)

[ILG]

But we don't believe that.



Then why are you insulting me for calling it out and saying it isn't right? Maybe you should pat me on the back and say we agree and go have coffee?

[ILG]

I've heard some good ones come over the pulpit. I've been sitting on a platform where it was testified. That a sister laid her hair on the altar and asked God to heal her daughter. Daughter was healed, I make sure I don't disrupt anyone's church family. If they believe that, then the minister and I will discuss it in private. But for me to get up in anyone's pulpit and preach against what they all believe is ludicrous.

Do you preach against the trinity? Thought so.

[ILG]

Heard an old district presbyter testify about a young boy who was healed when he (the presbyter) laid on top of him. He said God told him to do it.

*cringe*

Who would you be to preach against what people believe? (To quote Benincasa)

But, yeah, putting it out here isn't wrong and saying you disagree isn't wrong.

[ILG]

If there is false doctrine being taught, then it is good to see what the bible actually teaches and hold fast to that, and refute error.


Seems to me then, what I posted was a good idea. That was my thinking in the beginning.

[ILG]

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

Yep. And other people who teach likewise.

[ILG]

I'm sorry. The hair was placed over prayer requests at an Alabama ladies retreat.

And this is why I write what I do. This should be denounced from the higher ups, but it is ever?

[Esaias]

No, I never had a problem with standards. I had a problem with the mind prison the teachings put me into. I loved standards and I loved the lifestyle. If standards had been taught differently, I would probably be doing it today. I quit when I realized that to continue them would be to lead someone into the same mind prison I had found myself in and I didn't want to be responsible for that.

That's what I don't get. Mind prison?

My hair is short. I believe it ought to be short, because of scripture. Where's the prison? If someone taught me "if your hair gets long, if you stop cutting it, all hell will literally break loose" I don't see me fretting about it, since I wouldn't be growing my hair long anyway. Besides, I check everything with the Bible, so most likely I would either just smile and wave, or if I felt it was necessary I would ask for a comprehensive Bible study on the subject.

When you first heard these horror stories, did you stop and ask your husband? Did you search the scriptures to see if those things were true?

[Esaias]

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

How in the world did LS get a "following" to begin with?

(did I really ask that? Why, yes I did...)

[ILG]

That's what I don't get. Mind prison?

My hair is short. I believe it ought to be short, because of scripture. Where's the prison? If someone taught me "if your hair gets long, if you stop cutting it, all hell will literally break loose" I don't see me fretting about it, since I wouldn't be growing my hair long anyway. Besides, I check everything with the Bible, so most likely I would either just smile and wave, or if I felt it was necessary I would ask for a comprehensive Bible study on the subject.

When you first heard these horror stories, did you stop and ask your husband? Did you search the scriptures to see if those things were true?

Of course I did all those things. I searched, I fasted I prayed. 16 years later, in my prayer closet, I finally had a revelation and I have never been the same since.

I know you don't understand the mind prison. Men usually don't because having short hair is very accepted as the norm in our society for men. No one asks you (probably) "Why do you keep your hair short?" Women, on the other hand, have to answer all sorts of questions there is no real answer to. We know the bible says long hair is given for a covering, but we can't answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair, why the Nazarite vow and shaving of the head was also for women and why long for women means uncut but long for men means below the ears because it isn't biblical, it's just tradition.

The mind prison is hard to explain, but it's very real and the reason I write these blogs because it takes a lot for people to wrap their heads around it but most of the time, they know on some level it's true. When a woman believes these fear-mongering tales that have no basis in reality and she's told that she's wrong with God if she doesn't believe them, mind prison results.

[Esaias]

Of course I did all those things. I searched, I fasted I prayed. 16 years later, in my prayer closet, I finally had a revelation and I have never been the same since.

I know you don't understand the mind prison. Men usually don't because having short hair is very accepted as the norm in our society for men. No one asks you (probably) "Why do you keep your hair short?" Women, on the other hand, have to answer all sorts of questions there is no real answer to. We know the bible says long hair is given for a covering, but we can't answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair, why the Nazarite vow and shaving of the head was also for women and why long for women means uncut but long for men means below the ears because it isn't biblical, it's just tradition.

The mind prison is hard to explain, but it's very real and the reason I write these blogs because it takes a lot for people to wrap their heads around it but most of the time, they know on some level it's true. When a woman believes these fear-mongering tales that have no basis in reality and she's told that she's wrong with God if she doesn't believe them, mind prison results.

Your husband never gave you a scriptural answer? Seems like you could have shortened 16 years down to about an evening or two.

My wife and daughters have long hair. When people comment to them about hair its always "Oh, you have such gorgeous hair! It's so long!" with an occasional "Wish my hair was that long" thrown in. They do get asked "So, why do you wear a head covering again? Are you Pentecostal? Mennonite? Amish?" Which immediately results in an impromptu Bible study on hair, headcoverings, prayer, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, the Bible, separation from the world, repentance, eternal life, etc.

[ILG]

Your husband never gave you a scriptural answer? Seems like you could have shortened 16 years down to about an evening or two.

My wife and daughters have long hair. When people comment to them about hair its always "Oh, you have such gorgeous hair! It's so long!" with an occasional "Wish my hair was that long" thrown in. They do get asked "So, why do you wear a head covering again? Are you Pentecostal? Mennonite? Amish?" Which immediately results in an impromptu Bible study on hair, headcoverings, prayer, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, the Bible, separation from the world, repentance, eternal life, etc.

Yes, he told me standards are not salvational. He wasn't able to answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair and why women were allowed to shave their heads for the Nazarite vow or why apostolics teach that long=uncut when the bible is not clear on that at all. But he did wisely tell me that it wasn't salvational. The mind prison I was in and the people around me said "She cut her hair-she backslid" which meant salvation was based on uncut hair and I didn't know the answer until I saw it straight from God.

[Esaias]

Usually when hair cutting and backsliding go together, the backsliding came first and the haircutting was just a symptom.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm sorry. The hair was placed over prayer requests at an Alabama ladies retreat.

Therefore every United Pentecostal in Alabama believes this?

Again, the point of this argument is that the organization has no position on this. End of story. If anyone was to take the organization to court trying to prove that the ORGANIZATION believed this as a tenent. We would be hard pressed to get a case going.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Right, that is what we have been trying to discuss, and why I asked for respectful dialogue. That is the point that ILG was making.

Contentious issues have always been discussed on FCF, NFCF, and AFF. FCF was a much better forum as people DID have respectful and intelligent dialogue. It wasn't a bunch of insults and GIF's. And there were a lot more posters because of that.

There was a lot more posters because Facebook wasn't around.
Respectful dialogue? Eh, no. FCF was definitely very good while Brother Yohe was alive. Haters were slim to none. But when his sister took over from Brother Mike Fleming then we really had haters at the gate. Blue Denim Whales? Seriously? Bundaged? Oh, yes it was light fun and sweet fellowship.

My foot. :lol



I don't believe anyone was taking that view. I don't believe that is the stance that ILG is taking either. I see a lot of value in the UPCI.

You don't believe that she is taking that view? Well, I believe she is taking that view. Also others were led to believe she was taking that view. Go back to the original post, it isn't dealing with a bunch of verses. It is dealing with UPCI material written by UPCI authors. I have people in our church who wouldn't know Brother Lee Stoneking if he fell on them. Listen this may come as a shock, but not everyone who says Lord Lord are, or were ever UPC.

This whole attacking or defending the UPCI gets a little old.



Right, you didn't spend the "majority" of your time in the UPCI and so....


So much for respectful dialogue.

Meaning we who are independent Apostolics really have no skin in the game. Other than you all wanting to debate the scriptures. Bringing up the UPC material is all ILG issues, not ours. I never believed that everytime a bell rang an angel gots his wings, Neither have a lot of people here who are, were, or never were UPCI. So, if she had a hard row to hoe at the UPCI I don't know how that's my fault or my church families fault. She isn't here to glean manna, because she has stated that she knows all the arguments and were wrong and she is going to heaven with her own press club. Hooray.

It's old, typing out pages and pages of information to have disgruntled with a made up mind blow their nose with it. Seriously?

[ILG]

Therefore every United Pentecostal in Alabama believes this?

Again, the point of this argument is that the organization has no position on this. End of story. If anyone was to take the organization to court trying to prove that the ORGANIZATION believed this as a tenent. We would be hard pressed to get a case going.

The organization doesn't preach against it because they don't want to dismantle their own stance even if it is false doctrine. It should be easy to teach against this. Instead, they leave it up to us "backslid heathen" to do it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hair like women's hair is obviously long hair.

How is that obvious? I'm trying to talk Bible but you are still stuck in some chit chat wanting me to decipher this through what is obvious in the world around me? Or obvious with the scripture? Sister the Greek word being used actually means to grow locks long. I showed how the Latin Vulgate interprets the word with the Latin word for growth, as to grow a child through nursing. The earliest Spanish Bible uses the word crecer which means GROW.

The translators and interpreters weren't UPC

That doesn't mean it had to be uncut.

Did they walk around with rulers? Maybe they had chalk lines? How'd they determine what is long and what is short? Yep, this logic is all the UPCI's fault?

Good God from Zion

And, for the record, Samson was commanded not to cut his hair and women could take the Nazarite vow and shave their head. If women cutting their hair was a sin, it would have been a sin then and now.

Sis, what did the vow represent and why did John take the vow as a youth. Luke 1:15? Why, what is the meaning?

What was different in the vow when a married women or daughter made the vow?

Sister, Judeans drank wine, sat shiva, and sacrificed animals through a mediator priesthood. 1st Corinthians 11 and Nazarite vows are comparing apples with lug nuts. No human being living today can keep a Nazarite vow. Yet, an Apostolic woman can grow her hair.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The organization doesn't preach against it because they don't want to dismantle their own stance even if it is false doctrine.

A conspiracy theory? :lol

Sorry sis, that's too funny.

The paramount issue is that the UPCI has NO OFFICIAL STATEMENT that you can control the migration paths of angels with hair. You have no argument, no case can be brought to law. Brother Stoneking can preach that dolphins escape from Atlantis when PeePaw gets a haircut. Yet, you would be unable to pin the tail on the UPCI as a whole. Sorry, no cigar, and you don't win a box of cookies.




It should be easy to teach against this. Instead, they leave it up to us "backslid heathen" to do it.

So, your beef is that an organization has to make a formal announcement against this, and you will come back to the UPCI?

Why are you saying backslid heathen? What is that supposed to do for your message?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yep. But he didn't.

OK, what does the word "ἄτομος," have to do with 1 Corinthians 11:15?

[Evang.Benincasa]

She didn't say ILG feels insulted-she said stop insulting ILG. Two different things.

You aren't being insulted.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The problem comes in when it becomes a gospel that is earned or kept by keeping things that are not clearly biblical rather than a gospel that you don't earn and can't boast about.

When what becomes Gospel?

Sis, the organization has NO STATEMENT saying that they believe hair has the power of all 6 Infinity Stones.

Wow, your cheerleader is going to be pretty disappointed in you. Because you keep getting logic thrown at you but you still are shouting, "Off With Her Head!"

Hey, do you know that forgiveness, TRUE FORGIVENESS is a salvational issue?

[Evang.Benincasa]

If that is the case, every preacher who was delivered from alcohol better never mention it after 20 years because they should get past it and move on. And if 20 years is the cut off date, I have a number to go yet. ;)

Now, what you do is testifying? Wow.

http://www.netanimations.net/Major-spaced-out-table-tennis-tournament-of-the-stars-without-the-table-seriously-flawed-rules-and-the-wrong-balls.gif

[Evang.Benincasa]

Then why are you insulting me for calling it out and saying it isn't right? Maybe you should pat me on the back and say we agree and go have coffee?

No one is insulting you.

Calling it out? No, you were in a church who taught you something. You found other people who were taught the same thing. You all sat down and theorized that everyone taught the same thing. You then took your show on the road, opened a Face Book forum to sit and discuss how everyone is bad but you all are good? Is that insulting? No, that is me being able to have fun with this illogical conversation. Because there is a solution, but you aren't looking for that. You just want to continue on this course believing that we all believe a woman's hair has sonar that locks onto angel's chemtrails.

[ILG]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1495196]How is that obvious? I'm trying to talk Bible but you are still stuck in some chit chat wanting me to decipher this through what is obvious in the world around me? Or obvious with the scripture? Sister the Greek word being used actually means to grow locks long. I showed how the Latin Vulgate interprets the word with the Latin word for growth, as to grow a child through nursing. The earliest Spanish Bible uses the word crecer which means GROW.

The translators and interpreters weren't UPC

So, fine. It means grow. What is your point?

Did they walk around with rulers? Maybe they had chalk lines? How'd they determine what is long and what is short? Yep, this logic is all the UPCI's fault?

They looked with their eyes. Again, your point?


Sis, what did the vow represent and why did John take the vow as a youth. Luke 1:15? Why, what is the meaning?

What was different in the vow when a married women or daughter made the vow?

Sister, Judeans drank wine, sat shiva, and sacrificed animals through a mediator priesthood. 1st Corinthians 11 and Nazarite vows are comparing apples with lug nuts. No human being living today can keep a Nazarite vow. Yet, an Apostolic woman can grow her hair.


Is a woman sinning if she cuts her hair?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Do you preach against the trinity? Thought so.

Sis, the brother who I'd be preaching for would also preach against the trinity.

So, you either missed my important point I was making, or feel that I should of refuted the sister after she sat down in her pew with my pulpit time?

OK, I'll give this a try.

I will be in the pulpit for whatever time the preacher gives me, or if I am granted liberty, it's open. But the pastor, he will be with the people for more hours, days, years, and have quality time with his people. I don't. So, if I go and get the idea I'm going to school these people on how I think hair being draped over a sick daughter isn't Biblical. She and HER church family will shut me off like an alarm clock in the wee hours of the morning. The minister needs to speak with the minister. Because if you do it over the pulpit, when you were invited to preach. Then you feel the need to bring something new an exciting to his people. You may never see it, but the pastor who is sitting behind you as you slice some revelation, is showing is alram to his people.
His face looks like a mule eating briars, and your whole new and exciting view is being ignored.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, fine. It means grow. What is your point?

So, growth is no more growth if it is cut.



They looked with their eyes. Again, your point?

Is that what is says? It says hair as women. If we go with your idea of "long" we would need to determine what long is? Longer than a man? They cropped their hair, polling, which looked like what the Romans wore. Therefore if we discard growth, and take your "long" our lenght would be shoulder? That is what the Greek word means.



Is a woman sinning if she cuts her hair?

Getting tired sister?

I'm not.

I explained that already.

Do you know where in this thread?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sis, when is a man or woman sinning?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Of course I did all those things. I searched, I fasted I prayed. 16 years later, in my prayer closet, I finally had a revelation and I have never been the same since.

I know you don't understand the mind prison. Men usually don't because having short hair is very accepted as the norm in our society for men. No one asks you (probably) "Why do you keep your hair short?" Women, on the other hand, have to answer all sorts of questions there is no real answer to. We know the bible says long hair is given for a covering, but we can't answer why Samson was told not to cut his hair, why the Nazarite vow and shaving of the head was also for women and why long for women means uncut but long for men means below the ears because it isn't biblical, it's just tradition.

The mind prison is hard to explain, but it's very real and the reason I write these blogs because it takes a lot for people to wrap their heads around it but most of the time, they know on some level it's true. When a woman believes these fear-mongering tales that have no basis in reality and she's told that she's wrong with God if she doesn't believe them, mind prison results.


Mind prison?

[Esaias]

The organization doesn't preach against it because they don't want to dismantle their own stance even if it is false doctrine. It should be easy to teach against this. Instead, they leave it up to us "backslid heathen" to do it.

Organizations don't preach. Men do. And most men don't preach against HMH because its such an outlier, its like expecting an organizational decree regarding flat earth.

Again, I've been around apostolics from one coast to the other and in between, and never even heard of this stuff until these forums. Never even heard of it back in the days of Delphi forums, either.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Your husband never gave you a scriptural answer? Seems like you could have shortened 16 years down to about an evening or two.

My wife and daughters have long hair. When people comment to them about hair its always "Oh, you have such gorgeous hair! It's so long!" with an occasional "Wish my hair was that long" thrown in. They do get asked "So, why do you wear a head covering again? Are you Pentecostal? Mennonite? Amish?" Which immediately results in an impromptu Bible study on hair, headcoverings, prayer, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, the Bible, separation from the world, repentance, eternal life, etc.

Amen bro, amen. :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Organizations don't preach. Men do. And most men don't preach against HMH because its such an outlier, its like expecting an organizational decree regarding flat earth.

Again, I've been around apostolics from one coast to the other and in between, and never even heard of this stuff until these forums. Never even heard of it back in the days of Delphi forums, either.

I can't say the same, but I can say that it is a mixed bag.

Again, the organization has no statement saying that they believe it.
Many ministers don't believe it, and are vocal against it.

[houston]

I remember an evangelist telling the females in the church, "Let your hair down! Let your hair down!" He really worked them into a frenzy.

Maybe ILG and PO need to let their hair down... and shake it in the wind. If only they knew what witches know.

[houston]

I remember sitting in services where LS was the speaker. He told these stories about special powers women had because they didn't cut their hair. Strange, nothing stood out until years later after I joined a forum. LOL.

Maybe the average church goer isn't going to process this stuff. In one ear, out the other.

[jediwill83]

I remember sitting in services where LS was the speaker. He told these stories about special powers women had because they didn't cut their hair. Strange, nothing stood out until years later after I joined a forum. LOL.

Maybe the average church goer isn't going to process this stuff. In one ear, out the other.

Dont mess with me dude...Ill have my wife shake her hair at you lol....maybe I can get her to shake her hair over my wallet.....

[houston]

Dont mess with me dude...Ill have my wife shake her hair at you lol....maybe I can get her to shake her hair over my wallet.....

If that works she can shake her hair over my wallet too

[ILG]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1495205]So, growth is no more growth if it is cut.

Then, by your logic "if a man have long hair-it is a shame unto him". If the hair of a woman is uncut hair, then as long as a man trims it, he's all good. It's not "long". This makes no sense.

Is that what is says? It says hair as women. If we go with your idea of "long" we would need to determine what long is? Longer than a man? They cropped their hair, polling, which looked like what the Romans wore. Therefore if we discard growth, and take your "long" our lenght would be shoulder? That is what the Greek word means.

If we go by your idea, long means uncut, so men can trim the ends a little and have "short" hair.

[ILG]

Sis, when is a man or woman sinning?

That's a broad question. But I feel confident that it's not when a woman cuts her hair. If a man tries to control a woman by preaching she will go to hell if he doesn't interpret the bible the way he says she should, he could well be sinning against her if he is twisting her head. It's called abuse and it's what the Pharisees did and Jesus preached against that a lot.

[ILG]

Organizations don't preach. Men do. And most men don't preach against HMH because its such an outlier, its like expecting an organizational decree regarding flat earth.

Again, I've been around apostolics from one coast to the other and in between, and never even heard of this stuff until these forums. Never even heard of it back in the days of Delphi forums, either.

The people who have been harmed by this teaching are all over. If you listen.

[ILG]

I remember sitting in services where LS was the speaker. He told these stories about special powers women had because they didn't cut their hair. Strange, nothing stood out until years later after I joined a forum. LOL.

Maybe the average church goer isn't going to process this stuff. In one ear, out the other.

Especially if you're a man.

[ILG]

Dont mess with me dude...Ill have my wife shake her hair at you lol....maybe I can get her to shake her hair over my wallet.....

We need a "shake your hair" emoticon!

[houston]

Especially if you're a man.

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

[ILG]

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

What I mean is that if you are a man, you are probably less likely to notice women's teachings on hair. Sheesh, what did you think I meant?

[Esaias]

The people who have been harmed by this teaching are all over. If you listen.

I've only ever heard from you and a couple other "victims of Pentecost" here, nFCF, and FCF. Occasionally I read a comment on some local forum or blog where someone complains about Pentecostals not being allowed to cut their hair. It was "bondage" according to them because they wanted to wear short hair, makeup, jewelry, pants, shorts, tank tops, watch TV, go to the beach, go clubbing, smoke, drink, and generally live like the world.

In "real life" the only people I've met who think "pentecostal standards are bondage" are either ex-Christians who hate everything Christian with a passion, baptists and Lutherans and Methodists who like their short hair, makeup, jewelry, etc, or uber-liberal types who think Jesus smiles on their dope-smoking fornicating party all week church on Easter Sunday way of living.

Obviously, ymmv.

[n david]

If a man tries to control a woman by preaching she will go to hell if he doesn't interpret the bible the way he says she should, he could well be sinning against her if he is twisting her head. It's called abuse and it's what the Pharisees did and Jesus preached against that a lot.
Basically, this is woman's liberation for the church. Don't tell her what she should/shouldn't do with her body. Especially if you're a male preacher. Regardless of what the Bible says.

[Amanah]

I've only ever heard from you and a couple other "victims of Pentecost" here, nFCF, and FCF. Occasionally I read a comment on some local forum or blog where someone complains about Pentecostals not being allowed to cut their hair. It was "bondage" according to them because they wanted to wear short hair, makeup, jewelry, pants, shorts, tank tops, watch TV, go to the beach, go clubbing, smoke, drink, and generally live like the world.

In "real life" the only people I've met who think "pentecostal standards are bondage" are either ex-Christians who hate everything Christian with a passion, baptists and Lutherans and Methodists who like their short hair, makeup, jewelry, etc, or uber-liberal types who think Jesus smiles on their dope-smoking fornicating party all week church on Easter Sunday way of living.

Obviously, ymmv.

Amen, there is a root of bitterness that gets in a persons spirit to keep the Spirit of God from working in their life and in the lives those who listen to them.

Hebrews 12:14..Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15..Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16..Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17..For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

[houston]

I've only ever heard from you and a couple other "victims of Pentecost" here, nFCF, and FCF. Occasionally I read a comment on some local forum or blog where someone complains about Pentecostals not being allowed to cut their hair. It was "bondage" according to them because they wanted to wear short hair, makeup, jewelry, pants, shorts, tank tops, watch TV, go to the beach, go clubbing, smoke, drink, and generally live like the world.

In "real life" the only people I've met who think "pentecostal standards are bondage" are either ex-Christians who hate everything Christian with a passion, baptists and Lutherans and Methodists who like their short hair, makeup, jewelry, etc, or uber-liberal types who think Jesus smiles on their dope-smoking fornicating party all week church on Easter Sunday way of living.

Obviously, ymmv.

And me

[houston]

Basically, this is woman's liberation for the church. Don't tell her what she should/shouldn't do with her body. Especially if you're a male preacher. Regardless of what the Bible says.

Nailed it! Goes back to the garden...

[houston]

Amen, there is a root of bitterness that gets in a persons spirit to keep the Spirit of God from working in their life and in the lives those who listen to them.


That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.

[Esaias]

That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.

Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.

[Esaias]

Now, if a church or family believes women ought not to cut their hair, and a member decides to cut their hair, then what do they expect the results to be?

If I told my family I had gotten some enlightenment and was gonna wear skirts from now on, I *guarantee* you I'd become rather solitary, rather quick. So who would be to blame?

Who left who?

[houston]

Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.
Some churches are very cult like. Probably very few. But they exist.

[Amanah]

That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.

I'm more concerned for someone who might be reading this thread, who is wanting to find their way back to God, and maybe God wants them to attend a UPC, but they are poisoned by reading these same types of threads, by the same people over and over.

The injured person can always create a facebook forum.

[ILG]

I've only ever heard from you and a couple other "victims of Pentecost" here, nFCF, and FCF. Occasionally I read a comment on some local forum or blog where someone complains about Pentecostals not being allowed to cut their hair. It was "bondage" according to them because they wanted to wear short hair, makeup, jewelry, pants, shorts, tank tops, watch TV, go to the beach, go clubbing, smoke, drink, and generally live like the world.

In "real life" the only people I've met who think "pentecostal standards are bondage" are either ex-Christians who hate everything Christian with a passion, baptists and Lutherans and Methodists who like their short hair, makeup, jewelry, etc, or uber-liberal types who think Jesus smiles on their dope-smoking fornicating party all week church on Easter Sunday way of living.

Obviously, ymmv.

There are many, many people who have been harmed by these teachings. Most of them won't post publicly because they are unwilling or unable to face the insults, attacks and accusations a person must withstand in order to talk about it openly. Once you begin to talk openly, you get PM's and other correspondence and you realize the problem is huge.

[ILG]

Basically, this is woman's liberation for the church. Don't tell her what she should/shouldn't do with her body. Especially if you're a male preacher. Regardless of what the Bible says.

If the bible said uncut that would be somewhat different. But it doesn't.

[ILG]

The way I see it, the accusations of "bitter", "can't let it go" and all that are just ways to try and silence the discussion. The uncut hair doctrine really can't withstand scrutiny and so people try and silence the discussion instead.

[Aquila]

Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.

Well, as a male it really doesn't effect me much. But we visited a UPCI church in Beavercreek, Ohio and my step daughter loved it. She was 7 years old at the time. She loved it because before they began Sunday school the kids worshipped in the sanctuary with the adults. She loved the music, the praise, and the worship. She'd dance in front of the altar, she'd spin, and twirl in her dress (we don't always put her in a dress, so it means something special to her). It was really beautiful. We tried to reign her in once and the pastor, a wonderful man, told us to let her go and enjoy praising Jesus. As most who know me already know, we are "house churchers", but this church was impressive. Almost impressive enough to give up house churching. So, we visited for about two months. Then suddenly one morning my daughter didn't want to go. She was an emotional wreck. It really caught us off guard because she's NEVER like that. She wouldn't tell us what was wrong. She was in tears. We had to demand that she get into the car with her begging us not to go. This is a 7 year old little girl. So I put the brakes on it. I decided we weren't going to go that morning. We were going to focus on what was eating at my daughter. My biggest concern was some form of abuse. As it turns out, the previous Sunday a group of kids told her that Jesus didn't love her because her hair was cut. They also told her that Jesus laughs at her dancing because she has cut hair. Try as I might to explain that these kids were just mean and didn't know what they were talking about. But the damage was done. When we went to evening service she didn't dance. She didn't twirl. She stayed right next to her mother in the pews. The obvious fear and humiliation was all over her face. The next Sunday morning, she threw a fit again. She said she didn't want to go to church with "mean people".

We eventually stopped going for completely different reasons. We often talk about going back but my daughter is 11 now and that's the one thing she remembers about that church. We visited a local Baptist church and the first thing she asked was about hair and if Jesus loves her. She wasn't at ease until she saw women with cut hair. Same when we visited a local Methodist Church (which allowed a group of Friends to meet on their premises that I was visiting).

Now, I know kids can be cruel, but that has been burned into her mind. She honestly thinks that Jesus doesn't love her because she has cut hair. She doesn't like visiting any kind of church because of that. And she's only at ease if she sees women with cut or styled hair. And still, she thinks Jesus might not love her or them either. I'm trying to reprogram her but it's stuck in her head.

Now, my lady love has cut hair and frankly, she didn't experience any issue. Her hair is long and when put up it really doesn't look much different from anyone else's so nobody really criticized her over it anyway.

I was a Sunday school teacher for 7 years. One thing I learned is that kids give you away. If your kids are saying things like Jesus doesn't love women with cut hair, or that women will go to Hell over pants or cut hair, 9 out of 10 times they heard it from their parents. So, obviously at least a few parents in that church believe that a woman who cuts her will go to Hell.

I've also noticed that a lot of churches act like cults in that they don't stress those things up front. They win your trust, build a friendship with you, excuse your cut hair, your beard, or whatever and then as you find yourself emotionally attached and loving the people in the church... they begin tightening the noose. They begin to slowly start requiring that you conform or you're rejected. In my opinion, that's not real love. In fact, that's a tactic common in cults. And this is when the pain comes into play. Losing cherished friendships and a spiritual family you had hopes and dreams of being a part of for perhaps the rest of your life. It's like being disowned. Nothing hurts the human heart more than being rejected by the people you love. When I see someone ranting against a church, certain standards, or an organization and its standards... I see a person who loved that church, loved those people, loved that org... who was hurt over being rejected. Now, if it is over something biblical, then it is on the rejected one to repent if they want restored fellowship. But people get rejected by churches over unbiblical standards every day. In these cases, it is these churches that need to repent and reach out to restore fellowship.

We need to get away from all these extra-biblical teachings of holy magic hair, mandatory uncut doctrines, and condemnation of facial hair on men, blah, blah, blah. The Bible DOESN'T make a strong enough statement to heap so much condemnation on people. We need to get away from making an idol of our "Apostolic Identity" as found in our traditions, and seek identification in the Christ of the Scriptures. Yes, in Christ alone.

[ILG]

Well, as a male it really doesn't effect me much. But we visited a UPCI church in Beavercreek, Ohio and my step daughter loved it. She was 7 years old at the time. She loved it because before they began Sunday school the kids worshipped in the sanctuary with the adults. She loved the music, the praise, and the worship. She'd dance in front of the altar, she'd spin, and twirl in her dress (we don't always put her in a dress, so it means something special to her). It was really beautiful. We tried to reign her in once and the pastor, a wonderful man, told us to let her go and enjoy praising Jesus. As most who know me already know, we are "house churchers", but this church was impressive. Almost impressive enough to give up house churching. So, we visited for about two months. Then suddenly one morning my daughter didn't want to go. She was an emotional wreck. It really caught us off guard because she's NEVER like that. She wouldn't tell us what was wrong. She was in tears. We had to demand that she get into the car with her begging us not to go. This is a 7 year old little girl. So I put the brakes on it. I decided we weren't going to go that morning. We were going to focus on what was eating at my daughter. My biggest concern was some form of abuse. As it turns out, the previous Sunday a group of kids told her that Jesus didn't love her because her hair was cut. They also told her that Jesus laughs at her dancing because she has cut hair. Try as I might to explain that this kids were just mean and didn't know what they were talking about, the damage was done. When we went to evening service she didn't dance. She didn't twirl. She stayed right next to her mother in the pews. The obvious fear and humiliation was all over her face. The next Sunday morning, she threw a fit again. She said she didn't want to go to church with "mean people".

We stopped going eventually for completely different reasons relating to work and we often talk about going back but my daughter is 11 now and that's the one thing she remembers about that church. We visited a local Baptist church and the first thing she asked was about hair and if Jesus loves her. She wasn't at ease until she saw women with cut hair. Same when we visited a local Methodist Church (which allowed a group of Friends to meet on their premises that I was visiting).

Now, I know kids can be cruel, but that has been burned into her mind. She honestly thinks that Jesus doesn't love her because she has cut hair. She doesn't like visiting any kind of church because of that. And she's only at ease if she sees women with cut or styled hair. And still, she thinks Jesus might not love her or them either. I'm trying to reprogram her but it's stuck in her head.

Now, my has cut hair and frankly, she didn't care. Her hair is long and when put up it really doesn't look much different from anyone else's and nobody really criticized her over it anyway.

I was a Sunday school teacher for 7 years. One thing I learned is that kids give you away. If your kids are saying things like Jesus doesn't love women with cut hair, or that women will go to Hell over pants or cut hair, 9 out of 10 times they heard it from their parents. So, obviously at least a few parents in that church believe that a woman who cuts her will go to Hell.

I've also noticed that a lot of churches act like cults in that they don't stress those things up front. They win your trust, build a friendship with you, excuse your cut hair, your beard, or whatever and then as you find yourself emotionally attached and loving the people in the church... they begin tightening the noose. They begin to slowly start requiring that you conform or you're rejected. In my opinion, that's not real love. That's when the pain comes into play. Losing cherished friendships and a spiritual family you had hopes and dreams of being a part of for perhaps the rest of your life. It's like being disowned. Nothing hurts the human heart more than being rejected by the people you love. When I see someone ranting against a church, certain standards, or an organization and it's standards... I see a person who loved that church, loved those people, loved that org... who was hurt over being rejected. Now, if it is over something biblical, that's on the rejected one to repent if they want restored fellowship. But I know a couple who got as far as being considered for ministry until they were told to give up their wedding bands. The wedding bands had been passed down in their family and were something very dear to them. It became a train wreck. Over a wedding band. So very sad.

We need to get away from all these extra-biblical teachings of holy magic hair, mandatory uncut doctrines, and condemnation of facial hair on men. The Bible DOESN'T make a strong enough statement to heap so much condemnation on people.

I noticed they are starting to get away from the beards issue more than in the past. But men have always been able to push the envelope in ways that women can't. If women say there is a problem and men say there isn't, women are just supposed to be silent and conform.

[aegsm76]

If the bible said uncut that would be somewhat different. But it doesn't.

And that's where we differ.
I believe it does.
I have heard all of the arguments on both sides and believe that it does.
I have done my own personal study and believe that it does.
If I get to heaven and there are women there with cut hair, I will be fine with that. It will not lessen my joy in the least.
But, I do not believe there will be women with cut hair AND bad attitudes.
Lol...

[ILG]

And that's where we differ.
I believe it does.
I have heard all of the arguments on both sides and believe that it does.
I have done my own personal study and believe that it does.
If I get to heaven and there are women there with cut hair, I will be fine with that. It will not lessen my joy in the least.
But, I do not believe there will be women with cut hair AND bad attitudes.
Lol...

I assume you are insinuating that I have a bad attitude simply because I speak out on this issue. I'll overlook that.

If you believe the Bible says uncut hair-fine. If you or your family practice that-fine. I just hope you or your family don't believe it's salvational or that you get special protection or the scary stories that when women cut their hair bad things happen or that women who don't cut their hair can control their environment without sin, like the booklet I quoted says. It's just not true.

[Aquila]

I noticed they are starting to get away from the beards issue more than in the past. But men have always been able to push the envelope in ways that women can't. If women say there is a problem and men say there isn't, women are just supposed to be silent and conform.

I know. And it's saddening that we don't value women more. I'm sorry sister. You're a daughter of El Shaddai. We should honor you as such by truly listening and hearing you. In a very real way, a church becomes far too unbalanced when women are silenced.

[Aquila]

And that's where we differ.
I believe it does.
I have heard all of the arguments on both sides and believe that it does.
I have done my own personal study and believe that it does.
If I get to heaven and there are women there with cut hair, I will be fine with that. It will not lessen my joy in the least.
But, I do not believe there will be women with cut hair AND bad attitudes.
Lol...

No one likes a bad attitude. LOL

But, think about it... when you're mocked, condemned, and rejected over having uncut hair, is it not a challenge to keep a good attitude?

[Aquila]

Without any interpretive jumping through hoops... please provide a single verse requiring uncut hair. The verse alone.

I'm waiting.

[ILG]

I know. And it's saddening that we don't value women more. I'm sorry sister. You're a daughter of El Shaddai. We should honor you as such by truly listening and hearing you. In a very real way, a church becomes far too unbalanced when women are silenced.

Thank you.

I'll tell you how I handled my disagreement with standards when I was still UPC. I felt I was bound to honor my husband and the church, even though I felt free of the mind prison. Once I knew standards were not biblical as they had been taught, I kept standards for four years after that. We were pastoring, and I had no desire to hurt anyone at any time. My husband eventually agreed with me and we resigned and quietly left. After I had been out of the church for two years, I finally cut my hair. I didn't care about cut or uncut. What I cared about was that I was finally free of the mind bending and mind twisting that I had been under for so many years and that is why I write. I don't care if the women here have uncut hair for the rest of their lives. It doesn't matter to me. I respect the decision. I just don't like to see people held in cages made by men.

[ILG]

Without any interpretive jumping through hoops... please provide a single verse requiring uncut hair. The verse alone.

I'm waiting.

:popcorn2

[Pressing-On]

I assume you are insinuating that I have a bad attitude simply because I speak out on this issue. I'll overlook that.

If you believe the Bible says uncut hair-fine. If you or your family practice that-fine. I just hope you or your family don't believe it's salvational or that you get special protection or the scary stories that when women cut their hair bad things happen or that women who don't cut their hair can control their environment without sin, like the booklet I quoted says. It's just not true.

Every church I personally know, have attended and attend now say that the standards are not salvational, including the hair. However, you are viewed as backslid if you do not adhere to the standards. That is hard to explain to people.

[ILG]

Every church I personally know, have attended and attend now say that the standards are not salvational, including the hair. However, you are viewed as backslid if you do not adhere to the standards. That is hard to explain to people.

Exactly. They always said they were not salvational when I was in the church. But.....if you don't do them....you are like Jezebel.....you open your home to evil spirits.....you are a promoter of homosexuality......you are promoting feminism......and then.....they tie in all the scriptures about abominations and usurping authority and obeying them that have the rule over you and that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft! In the end......they're salvational.

[Aquila]

I hate to break it to people, but... if you've ever cut your hair in your life, you can't claim you have uncut hair. Cut is cut. I know girls born into the Apostolic movement who have truly never had their hair cut and it is down to their ankles (and sometimes longer). That's uncut. But if you lived in the world for 26 years, cutting and styling your hair, and for the past 8 years you've been in the church and have not cut your hair, your hair is long. It's not uncut. For if it were uncut, it would be far longer. Cut is cut. It's like being a virgin. Either you've been to that rodeo or your haven't. Once you've been there, you can't claim you haven't. lol

So, in truth, more women in the church have cut hair than perhaps they are willing to realize. And that's the honest truth.

[Esaias]

Every church I personally know, have attended and attend now say that the standards are not salvational, including the hair. However, you are viewed as backslid if you do not adhere to the standards. That is hard to explain to people.

Hard to explain? No, its pretty easy to explain. Like this:

"We believe in keeping up appearances cause the old folks will leave us if we don't, and they have all the money. But we need to get young folks on board, so we're slowly loosening the belt. In a couple generations it'll all hang out, then we can all hang out at the local AoG and be just like everybody else, cause there's money to be made."

[Aquila]

Hard to explain? No, its pretty easy to explain. Like this:

"We believe in keeping up appearances cause the old folks will leave us if we don't, and they have all the money. But we need to get young folks on board, so we're slowly loosening the belt. In a couple generations it'll all hang out, then we can all hang out at the local AoG and be just like everybody else, cause there's money to be made."

lol

[Esaias]

I just don't like to see people held in cages made by men.

Sounds just like the feminazi movement.

[ILG]

Hard to explain? No, its pretty easy to explain. Like this:

"We believe in keeping up appearances cause the old folks will leave us if we don't, and they have all the money. But we need to get young folks on board, so we're slowly loosening the belt. In a couple generations it'll all hang out, then we can all hang out at the local AoG and be just like everybody else, cause there's money to be made."

Now you're talking!

[ILG]

Sounds just like the feminazi movement.

Yeah, I'm all about the feminazis. That's why I don't march with the pro-choice movement, cringe when I see a butch cut on women, and am seen as extremely conservative and unenlightened by my liberal, feminist friends. It's a great place to be-rejected by all. Ha

[Esaias]

Yeah, I'm all about the feminazis. That's why I don't march with the pro-choice movement, cringe when I see a butch cut on women, and am seen as extremely conservative and unenlightened by my liberal, feminist friends. It's a great place to be-rejected by all. Ha

I'm not saying you are one. But you may have picked up some feminist ideology along the way somewhere...

[Aquila]

Yeah, I'm all about the feminazis. That's why I don't march with the pro-choice movement, cringe when I see a butch cut on women, and am seen as extremely conservative and unenlightened by my liberal, feminist friends. It's a great place to be-rejected by all. Ha

I once had a pastor tell me that the cost of truly following Jesus would earn you enemies on both the left and the right. I believe he was correct.

[houston]

Every church I personally know, have attended and attend now say that the standards are not salvational, including the hair. However, you are viewed as backslid if you do not adhere to the standards. That is hard to explain to people.

Don't do it to be saved, but because you're saved?

[aegsm76]

I assume you are insinuating that I have a bad attitude simply because I speak out on this issue. I'll overlook that.

If you believe the Bible says uncut hair-fine. If you or your family practice that-fine. I just hope you or your family don't believe it's salvational or that you get special protection or the scary stories that when women cut their hair bad things happen or that women who don't cut their hair can control their environment without sin, like the booklet I quoted says. It's just not true.

ILG - you do have a bad attitude about this and about other things within the UPC.
At least that is my opinion.
And you can take it or leave it.
And I do believe it is salvational.
I do not believe in the HMH doctrine, if that is what you are trying to say with the other parts of the post.
Within the UPC, there are wide ranges of beliefs on different standards/doctrines.
And, just as you could find a church that preaches HMH, you could find a church that does not preach against women cutting their hair.
My issue with you is that you are not content to accept the fact that I believe it is biblical and salvational.

I have one quick question for you.
Do believe that people adhering to the UPC standards/doctrines and living a holy life are saved?

[Captain]

Hard to explain? No, its pretty easy to explain. Like this:

"We believe in keeping up appearances cause the old folks will leave us if we don't, and they have all the money. But we need to get young folks on board, so we're slowly loosening the belt. In a couple generations it'll all hang out, then we can all hang out at the local AoG and be just like everybody else, cause there's money to be made."

Wow, that’s bitter

[Captain]

There's more bitterness on this thread than anywhere else I've seen so far. Let me just make a couple of points here for the sake of anyone jumping in mid-thread.

ILG obviously holds to no apostolic doctrine but yet hangs out here. Why? Stoking her bitterness.

Esaias' bitterness is on full display above, then add to his constant private interpretation of scripture and he's either a bitter back pew type, attends one of the Pentecostal churches where Acts 2:38 is maybe preferred but not taught as essential or perhaps doesn't go at all anymore.

Aquila isn't as bitter but still holds to private interpretation. Whatever church he attends he's either an outlier or it's a church most mainstream apostolic wouldn't recognize as apostolic .

[Captain]

So let's sum all this up outside of the bitter ramblings:

V5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

So if a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered it would be as if she had completely shaved her head.

V6 ..For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Basically reiterates verse 5

And how should a woman cover her head? Is a veil mentioned? Maybe a snazzy hat? Nope.

V15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Her hair is given her for a covering. Now I know there are several here that specialize in private interpretation but really, this couldn’t be any clearer.

Paul says beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1) God has a specific hierarchy of authority 2) that hierarchy goes Christ, man, woman 3) It is such a natural thing for a man to have short hair and a woman long hair that it is self-evident 4) In light of this natural indicator of masculinity and femininity, a woman shows that she keeps her place in God’s hierarchy by dint of her keeping her hair long i.e. her feminine role in that hierarchy.

Uncut isn't so clear but if one wants to err on the side of caution, God will bless that commitment i.e. 1Cor7 where Paul says some things aren't essential but if one does the "extra" in good conscious then all the better. And erring on the side of uncut is a far cry better than something completely man-made like the veil - especially since it opens up the woman to the lie that she can cut her hair to an unfeminine length and still be ok as long as she wears a veil

[ILG]

[QUOTE=aegsm76;1495341]ILG - you do have a bad attitude about this and about other things within the UPC.
At least that is my opinion.
And you can take it or leave it.
And I do believe it is salvational.
I do not believe in the HMH doctrine, if that is what you are trying to say with the other parts of the post.
Within the UPC, there are wide ranges of beliefs on different standards/doctrines.
And, just as you could find a church that preaches HMH, you could find a church that does not preach against women cutting their hair.
My issue with you is that you are not content to accept the fact that I believe it is biblical and salvational.

I have one quick question for you.
Do believe that people adhering to the UPC standards/doctrines and living a holy life are saved?

I will give you this-I think you are the first person that's ever said it's salvational so at least you are being honest! Most people say it's not salvational.

Yes, I believe that they are saved.

[ILG]

Uncut isn't so clear but if one wants to err on the side of caution, God will bless that commitment i.e. 1Cor7 where Paul says some things aren't essential but if one does the "extra" in good conscious then all the better. And erring on the side of uncut is a far cry better than something completely man-made like the veil - especially since it opens up the woman to the lie that she can cut her hair to an unfeminine length and still be ok as long as she wears a veil

So, you admit that uncut isn't so clear. So, those of us who choose to cut our hair (but not like a man's cut-to be clear) and don't want to "err on the side of caution" are still blessed and saved, right?

[Amanah]

ILG, may I ask you, do you still believe Oneness, Acts 2:38, ect, but just don't believe in traditional standards?

[ILG]

ILG, may I ask you, do you still believe Oneness, Acts 2:38, ect, but just don't believe in traditional standards?

If you are asking if I believe the hardline, you must 1. Repent and then 2. Be baptized with a preacher saying the name of Jesus over you while you are immersed and then 3. Speak in tongues and believe in the Oneness of God to be saved the answer is no.

[Pressing-On]

Don't do it to be saved, but because you're saved?

I just remember singing

There is power in the name of Jesus
There is power in the name of Jesus
To break every chain
Break every chain
Break every chain

That is my focus. Because i know that works.

[Pressing-On]

If you are asking if I believe the hardline, you must 1. Repent and then 2. Be baptized with a preacher saying the name of Jesus over you while you are immersed and then 3. Speak in tongues and believe in the Oneness of God to be saved the answer is no.

Okay, so hair isn't salvational, but Acts 2:38 is. That is the Gospel the apostles tell us we must obey.

[ILG]

I just remember singing

There is power in the name of Jesus
There is power in the name of Jesus
To break every chain
Break every chain
Break every chain

That is my focus. Because i know that works.

That's the whole thing right there. That works!

[ILG]

Okay, so hair isn't salvational, but Acts 2:38 is. That is the Gospel the apostles tell us we must obey.

Not everyone in the UPC even believes this in the hardline way. Some believe that you MUST do this in order to be saved-some believe this in a softer way. It was the difference in the two sides of belief at the merger. But-I don't want to veer off into hardline vs softline. I do believe in Oneness but that's my default setting.

[Amanah]

If you are asking if I believe the hardline, you must 1. Repent and then 2. Be baptized with a preacher saying the name of Jesus over you while you are immersed and then 3. Speak in tongues and believe in the Oneness of God to be saved the answer is no.

it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

[Pressing-On]

Not everyone in the UPC even believes this in the hardline way. Some believe that you MUST do this in order to be saved-some believe this in a softer way. It was the difference in the two sides of belief at the merger. But-I don't want to veer off into hardline vs softline. I do believe in Oneness but that's my default setting.

I don't personally know anyone who doesn't believe in Acts 2:38 in the UPC.

[aegsm76]

it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

I have friends and family members who have dropped standards.
None of them have children who hold to Acts 2:38 and Oneness.
And I agree with you, I do not understand how that works.

[ILG]

I don't personally know anyone who doesn't believe in Acts 2:38 in the UPC.

It's not that they don't believe in it. It that there is a difference between the hardline message and what was once called the "Light Doctrine".

[Pressing-On]

it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

I have quite a few friends who have left the UPC who still believe in Acts 2:38.

[Pressing-On]

It's not that they don't believe in it. It that there is a difference between the hardline message and what was once called and i the "Light Doctrine".

I have heard that discussed here, but don't know anyone personally.

BTW, thanks for your discussions without getting snippy and rude. Gotta run, I am not home and my phone ia not charging in the car for some reason. I need it to last until I check into my hotel room. Have a good one!

[ILG]

I have heard that discussed here, but don't know anyone personally.

BTW, thanks for your discussions without getting snippy and rude. Gotta run, I am not home and my phone ia not charging in the car for some reason. I need it to last until I check into my hotel room. Have a good one!

Thanks PO :highfive. See ya.

[aegsm76]

ILG - just went to the spiritual abuse site, where you first posted the article.
Was amazed to find an article there(written several years ago), by one of my relatives where he wrote questioning certain standards in the UPC.
The issue I have is this article is well written and by someone who was a good writer and speaker.
But, what the article does not tell is the story of his life, after he left the UPC.
And it is has been a mess.
And I have seen this over and over and over.
I believe I will keep what I have.

[ILG]

ILG - just went to the spiritual abuse site, where you first posted the article.
Was amazed to find an article there(written several years ago), by one of my relatives where he wrote questioning certain standards in the UPC.
The issue I have is this article is well written and by someone who was a good writer and speaker.
But, what the article does not tell is the story of his life, after he left the UPC.
And it is has been a mess.
And I have seen this over and over and over.
I believe I will keep what I have.

If you believe your life will be a mess if you leave, I'd rather you stay too.

[aegsm76]

If you believe your life will be a mess if you leave, I'd rather you stay too.

We agree!!!!!
Thanks!!!!

[Amanah]

ILG - just went to the spiritual abuse site, where you first posted the article.
Was amazed to find an article there(written several years ago), by one of my relatives where he wrote questioning certain standards in the UPC.
The issue I have is this article is well written and by someone who was a good writer and speaker.
But, what the article does not tell is the story of his life, after he left the UPC.
And it is has been a mess.
And I have seen this over and over and over.
I believe I will keep what I have.

I look at my former church members from my first church, it was an independent UC church, with a great move of the HG, people being filled and baptized, ect. Our Pastor dropped standards, his health was not a good, and he was getting weary of pressure that we were feeling from our youth group who kept up a constant barrage of why why why. People wore him down. At least that is what I think happened, plus I think he had a circle of friends who had become "enlightened"

I see former members on facebook, pics of them in bikinis, with Tattoos, drinking at the bars, they believed saved at repentance now, visited awhile back to see old friends, It was like being in a Baptist church, AoG would have been a big step up.

[ILG]

We agree!!!!!
Thanks!!!!

No problem! For some people, staying seems to be the right decision, keeping standards seems to be the right decision. I am not here to judge that. For some who leave, they get into big trouble and they are better off being in the UPC. For those people, I would rather that they stayed because the UPC and standards seems to be a fence they need in their life. So, I am not here to destroy that. What I am here for, and many people don't understand, is to help those who are in a miserable mind prison find their way out. Fences aren't all bad. It's when people say "You need my fence or you are lost" and even more importantly, when someone believes they need someone else's fence or they are lost, that is an even bigger problem yet because it could be that that fence is keeping them from a closer walk with God for their own life because they are following a fence not create for them.

[houston]

There's more bitterness on this thread than anywhere else I've seen so far. Let me just make a couple of points here for the sake of anyone jumping in mid-thread.

ILG obviously holds to no apostolic doctrine but yet hangs out here. Why? Stoking her bitterness.

Esaias' bitterness is on full display above, then add to his constant private interpretation of scripture and he's either a bitter back pew type, attends one of the Pentecostal churches where Acts 2:38 is maybe preferred but not taught as essential or perhaps doesn't go at all anymore.
Aquila isn't as bitter but still holds to private interpretation. Whatever church he attends he's either an outlier or it's a church most mainstream apostolic wouldn't recognize as apostolic .
Right on the money, especially with Esaias.

[houston]

it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

There are plenty.

[houston]

I see former members on facebook, pics of them in bikinis, with Tattoos, drinking at the bars, they believed saved at repentance now, visited awhile back to see old friends, It was like being in a Baptist church, AoG would have been a big step up.
Dropping "standards" doesn't lead to worldliness. It sounds like your friends on Facebook love the world.

[n david]

it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

I have friends and family members who have dropped standards.
None of them have children who hold to Acts 2:38 and Oneness.
And I agree with you, I do not understand how that works.

I have quite a few friends who have left the UPC who still believe in Acts 2:38.

Did they just leave the UPC or did they drop the standards. The statement was about dropping standards, not leaving the UPC.

I know several who dropped standards and now don't believe the New Birth message. They now believe the HG is just some added benefit...a "prayer language" but not part of salvation.

[n david]

What I am here for, and many people don't understand, is to help those who are in a miserable mind prison find their way out. Fences aren't all bad. It's when people say "You need my fence or you are lost" and even more importantly, when someone believes they need someone else's fence or they are lost, that is an even bigger problem yet because it could be that that fence is keeping them from a closer walk with God for their own life because they are following a fence not create for them.

Not your job.

[ILG]

Not your job.

That is not for you to determine.

[Esaias]

No problem! For some people, staying seems to be the right decision, keeping standards seems to be the right decision. I am not here to judge that. For some who leave, they get into big trouble and they are better off being in the UPC. For those people, I would rather that they stayed because the UPC and standards seems to be a fence they need in their life. So, I am not here to destroy that. What I am here for, and many people don't understand, is to help those who are in a miserable mind prison find their way out. Fences aren't all bad. It's when people say "You need my fence or you are lost" and even more importantly, when someone believes they need someone else's fence or they are lost, that is an even bigger problem yet because it could be that that fence is keeping them from a closer walk with God for their own life because they are following a fence not create for them.

So lots of women out there who will have a closer walk with God if they just cut their hair?

Wow.

[Esaias]

Right on the money, especially with Esaias.

I won't even attend a meeting unless I can have the back pew all to myself.

[houston]

I won't even attend a meeting unless I can have the back pew all to myself.

I sit in the foyer.

[Esaias]

I sit in the foyer.

Free coffee?

[houston]

Free coffee?

And donuts

[n david]

That is not for you to determine.
Says the person who takes it upon herself to cause division among those who may be weak in their faith, who are attending a church which believes what you do not.

If you don't wish to believe it, fine. Don't be a stumbling block and offense to others who attend a church which does.

[ILG]

So lots of women out there who will have a closer walk with God if they just cut their hair?

Wow.

No, that's not what I said. Lots of women need to break out of the mind prison.

[ILG]

Says the person who takes it upon herself to cause division among those who may be weak in their faith, who are attending a church which believes what you do not.

If you don't wish to believe it, fine. Don't be a stumbling block and offense to others who attend a church which does.

Maybe you're being the stumblingblock. I'll just leave it at that. I'm not going to allow a couple people on the internet to let me determine what my calling is.

[n david]

Maybe you're being the stumblingblock. I'll just leave it at that. I'm not going to allow a couple people on the internet to let me determine what my calling is.

Your calling is to sow division?

:nah

[Esaias]

And donuts

Too sweet. You need this:

https://44utq815afq71vkzpb1l7pd3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/8-oz-maple-350x438.jpg

[Esaias]

No, that's not what I said. Lots of women need to break out of the mind prison.

You said the fence was keeping women from a closer walk with God. If long/uncut hair is the fence, then the conclusion is obvious.

[Captain]

So, you admit that uncut isn't so clear. . .

Second time you’ve attributed the cut/uncut argument to me. None of my posts go there.

If you are asking if I believe the hardline, you must 1. Repent and then 2. Be baptized with a preacher saying the name of Jesus over you while you are immersed and then 3. Speak in tongues and believe in the Oneness of God to be saved the answer is no.

Then you do not believe in the oneness of God. And of course this completely validates my earlier statement about your bitterness and your continuing to hang out here only to stir up that bitterness in your own spirit and hopefully, for you, spread that spirit to others here.


it is weird, I don't know anyone who dropped standards and kept the message, I don't understand how that works.

Agreed. It’s not written down anywhere, but every time I’ve seen someone throw out pretty much all standards they also quit believing in the truth.


I have quite a few friends who have left the UPC who still believe in Acts 2:38.

Leaving the UPC isn’t the same as “dropping standards.”

[Captain]

There are plenty.

Maybe it's a matter of degree.

I've been in ultra-conservative and fairly "liberal" churches and have adjusted my standards - after 21 years - to something I feel is pretty balanced. More liberal than my old ultra-con peers would be comfy with but more conservative than in many ways than my liberal peers.

I have WPF relatives that proudly tout their lack of a TV but watch way more youtube than I do actual TV, but I'm more conservative in my approach to TV than most others in my church now.

[Captain]

. . .What I am here for, and many people don't understand, is to help those who are in a miserable mind prison find their way out. . .

So you don’t believe in the oneness of God, you don’t believe in basic Pentecostal standards, doubtful that you attend a church that teaches the oneness of God.

Yet you hang out at an apostolic forum to “help” people?

There is a lot to be said about finding balance in standards and not making it a chore to come to church but that is not what you’re doing. Simply reading your posts reveals bitterness, disappointment and hurt and you’re looking to spread that to others to help assuage your own seared conscious.

If you were simply a damaged soul I’d be much nicer about it but you’re actually here trying to do damage to others so we’ll just call this what it is, you’re here to spread your anger.

[Amanah]

I just noticed that Paul said we are to hold fast to the traditions that the Apostles taught. We argue about cultural significance of things taught.

tra·di·tion
trəˈdiSH(ə)n/
noun
the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-15King James Version (KJV)
11..And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12..That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13..But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14..Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15..Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

------------------

We are told to follow and keep this tradition/ordinance. We can't dismiss it as being "cultural"

1 Corinthians 11King James Version (KJV)
11..Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2..Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3..But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4..Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5..But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6..For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7..For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8..For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9..Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10..For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11..Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12..For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13..Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14..Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15..But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16..But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

------------------

covering is an ordinance, and can not be dismissed as "cultural"

------------------

maybe when we dismiss the ordinances of God as irrelevant that is when we can be deceived with a strong delusion.

[aegsm76]

Did they just leave the UPC or did they drop the standards. The statement was about dropping standards, not leaving the UPC.

I know several who dropped standards and now don't believe the New Birth message. They now believe the HG is just some added benefit...a "prayer language" but not part of salvation.

For my part, it was focused on those that "dropped standards".
For the ones that I knew in the UPC, this always involved getting out of the UPC.
Not all situations that "dropped standards" were in the UPC, however.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Then, by your logic "if a man have long hair-it is a shame unto him". If the hair of a woman is uncut hair, then as long as a man trims it, he's all good. It's not "long". This makes no sense.

Sister, indeed you make no sense, sadly this is why you get mocked, seriously. I already had you pose this scenario to me. I explained what was going on in the chapter. You posted that long doesn't necessarily mean uncut? Sister, the Greek means to grow locks, the Latin Vulgate uses the word which means to nurse a child. The word which is the root word for the English "nourish." The Spanish interpretation uses the word crecer which means to GROW. Revelation 9:8 shows that there was hair which was indicated a female. Since you have built your own universe out of not wanting 1 Corinthians 11:15 to be about uncut hair on women, you just revert to your old I don't like UPCI/English Bible mindset. Long is wrong, it is about growth, and not preventing the growth. You don't like that? Then I suggest you find a place to really figure out what your issues really are. Because Sister, your deal has noting to do with hair, dresses, long sleeves, or the good old U P of C. Your forum's name is breaking out? But you constantly are breaking in? I have said this before, I feel I need to say it again. If I left Pennycost, they ain't no way, I would come here to refute anything. Because you know why? You are all way to superstitious, and Sis, you are just as bad as those you rail against. That's what is pitiful. Forgive, that's what you need to do. So, why don't you tell me why nature teaches you that if a man has long hair it is vile disgust for him/ Please, please, spoon feed. Because this is way too funny. Because if Jesus preached, and David played his harp, you still wouldn't consider a thing.



If we go by your idea, long means uncut, so men can trim the ends a little and have "short" hair.

Sorry, Sister, but they understood that men polled their heads, and that women allowed their hair to grow to which any length it would grow to. They weren't United Pentecostals or Ex United Pentecostals arguing over the ENGLISH interpretation of Greek, and Latin.

Good grief.

Forgive and live.

[Evang.Benincasa]

That's a broad question.

No it isn't.

Is this what you do on your Facebook forum? You all agree, then roll around in agreements, and vitriol? Sis, you should of pointed to James 1:14-15. But since the lion share of your reading is UPCI Word Aflame you may of missed it. I'm not bashing the UPCI, and just cannot stop being amazed how ecclesiastically lazy you people are. All you did was sit on a pew and sop up every thing that flew over the pulpit. You drained the Word Aflame press dry of all its books. You read them like a Rabbi reads Talmud. Yet, what you were doing was exactly that, Like the book of Mormon has the D&C, the Koran, the Hadiths, New World Translation has the Watchtower. Some Pentecostals use Word Aflame as their hadiths, talmud. But Word Aflame isn't the mission statement of the UPCI. Your rocket went off course because it seems to me you spent way to much time being taught by other things. When you didn't get answers but sneers you just blew out. Sorry, I truly am sorry, but it is not our fault. There was a whole lot of heavy lifting you needed to do. Form what I'm reading here is that you only studied how to refute Pentecostal fables, instead of using book, chapter, and verse.


But I feel confident that it's not when a woman cuts her hair.

Sis, but that isn't any different than any other religion. They feel confident that they can eat psychedelic mushrooms to hear God. PO wanted some sort of parley with you and have a dialogue? Why? I say the Greek means to grow hair long. You say NO. Wow, great fellowshipping in the word. Sorry, but you have an agenda, and it has nothing to do with Bible study. You want what out of me? See it your way? Stay home? No longer attend a church? Sister, my first rule is this, I don't want to talk on and on about problems. I want to talk about solutions. You have none. You stay home and don't attend a church of any kind? Correct?



If a man tries to control a woman by preaching she will go to hell if he doesn't interpret the bible the way he says she should, he could well be sinning against her if he is twisting her head. It's called abuse and it's what the Pharisees did and Jesus preached against that a lot.

No that's not what the Pharisees did. The Pharisees wrested the scripture to get everyone off the hook. READ YOUR NEW TESTAMENT. They were only concerned with the here and now, they couldn't care less about going to heaven, nor did they want anyone else to go. You believe church is a place of abuse? Where a guy in the pulpit controls women? The Bible says that the wife is to submit to her OWN HUSBAND. Not her own pastor, evangelist, prophet, apostle, or teacher. The husband, if you are't listening to that guy, how on earth would I expect that you would listen to me? You made a vow before God when you married your husband. Not to any other man. The pulpit preaches to the man, the husband. If you doesn't get it, or doesn't agree with it, then he discusses it with the elders. I know, I know, what you were taught. But the Bible is plain, wives submit yourself to your OWN husbands.

The scripture also says that if any husband doesn't obey the Word, then his wife may influence him without the word with her chaste conduct.

Still, no preacher is your head, hence 1 Corinthians 11

[Evang.Benincasa]

The people who have been harmed by this teaching are all over. If you listen.

Stop, this isn't the truth. Because I wasn't influenced by it nor was my wife.
Like I said, you are an ecclesial heat seeking missile who believes the Church is flat. Sadly you are going down with your religious ship because you are creating an existence around this seeping wound.

Forgive and live in Jesus name.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Especially if you're a man.

Sis, looks like this issue may be more about men, than the Bible?

Seriously?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Bro, you know what that means.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What I mean is that if you are a man, you are probably less likely to notice women's teachings on hair. Sheesh, what did you think I meant?

What it sounded like.

Come on sis, you need to reexamine somethings, before you start charging your windmill dragons.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Basically, this is woman's liberation for the church. Don't tell her what she should/shouldn't do with her body. Especially if you're a male preacher. Regardless of what the Bible says.

That's what it sounds like.

Our sister did post that a MAN trying to CONTROL a woman from the pulpit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Amen, there is a root of bitterness that gets in a persons spirit to keep the Spirit of God from working in their life and in the lives those who listen to them.

Hebrews 12:14..Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15..Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16..Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17..For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

:thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nailed it! Goes back to the garden...

Amen, the woman desire was for her husband's position Genesis 3:16

Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you." New Living Translation

[Evang.Benincasa]

That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.

You are correct, not everyone is bitter.

But those people don't take huge amounts of time belly aching on a forum. About what they been through. They move on, and leave what hurt them far behind. They forgive, and rebuild their lives. Hanging around that which you claim caused you pain to take an occasional stab at, is called revenge. That's not moving forward in healing, that is staying stagnant and stinking. After a while everyone stop listening because no solutions are ever found. Just digging up the cat litter to inhale the ammonia.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.

It gets real old, and when you are giving book, chapter, and verse and they give you Brother Stoneking, Bunch and Breeze, you just shake your head.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Now, if a church or family believes women ought not to cut their hair, and a member decides to cut their hair, then what do they expect the results to be?

If I told my family I had gotten some enlightenment and was gonna wear skirts from now on, I *guarantee* you I'd become rather solitary, rather quick. So who would be to blame?

Who left who?

Amen.

[Evang.Benincasa]

There are many, many people who have been harmed by these teachings. Most of them won't post publicly

No, they won't post publically because they are grown ups. They dealt with it through whatever means other than walking around with a placard. You come here and dance around with Brother Stoneking's head on a stick. Waving around Ruth Rieder book, like everyone and their mother treated it like an epistle of an Apostle. Sorry, but those who don't post publically found out what the scripture was saying, and choose not to go page after page talking about Hazelwood Missouri as if it was the Vatican.



because they are unwilling or unable to face the insults, attacks and accusations a person must withstand in order to talk about it openly.

Because this isn't group. We are not on your FACEBOOK page where we are breaking out of your past religious experiences. Sorry, but I can't curl up with a cup of coco with you. All while you repeat the same arguments, the same story, over and over. Listen you have to move forward, this stuff is getting weird already.


Once you begin to talk openly, you get PM's and other correspondence and you realize the problem is huge.

OK, so what do you do with the millions of PMs you are getting? Because, sister, I was never in your religion. So. please tell me what do you suggest they do? Join your FB page? You have been bleeding for how long about this? It doesn't look like you are being helped, but go on, how do you help all those who PM you?

[Evang.Benincasa]

If the bible said uncut that would be somewhat different. But it doesn't.

But it doesn't? When did you prove that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I just don't like to see people held in cages made by men.

Houston?

Did she just say what I think she said? :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sounds just like the feminazi movement.

She needs to ponder before posting.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yeah, I'm all about the feminazis. That's why I don't march with the pro-choice movement, cringe when I see a butch cut on women, and am seen as extremely conservative and unenlightened by my liberal, feminist friends. It's a great place to be-rejected by all. Ha

Is a woman in sin if she has a butch cut?

http://www.butchwonders.com/uploads/2/4/8/6/2486969/7882310_orig.png

[Evang.Benincasa]

If you are asking if I believe the hardline, you must 1. Repent and then 2. Be baptized with a preacher saying the name of Jesus over you while you are immersed and then 3. Speak in tongues and believe in the Oneness of God to be saved the answer is no.

Are you Hindu? :heeheehee

[Esaias]

Is a woman in sin if she has a butch cut?

http://www.butchwonders.com/uploads/2/4/8/6/2486969/7882310_orig.png

Society is literally going insane. And there are forces at work trying to get the church to fall down when the horn toots.

Thankfully I'm tone deaf.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Okay, so hair isn't salvational, but Acts 2:38 is. That is the Gospel the apostles tell us we must obey.

Sis, that's not what ILG posted.

She obviously believes there are other ways then having a MAN say the name of Jesus over an individual.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Society is literally going insane. And there are forces at work trying to get the church to fall down when the horn toots.

Thankfully I'm tone deaf.

Bro, cultural Marxism has swallowed Christianity whole in this country.

Some believe they are setting the captives free. When in reality they're stuffing them down the rabbit hole. All the while handing out blue pills for everyone. :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

I don't personally know anyone who doesn't believe in Acts 2:38 in the UPC.

I am with you on dat. :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

It's not that they don't believe in it. It that there is a difference between the hardline message and what was once called the "Light Doctrine".

Not a lot of Light Doctrine guys out there. Jehovah Witnesses are big on New Light doctrine. Because during the turn of the century that was in vogue. But, sister, you always point towards minorities within the organization. New light isn't a teaching like it is within the Jay Hove Witnesses.

But, let me ask you this, do you believe the Word of God is infallible?

[Esaias]

Not a lot of Light Doctrine guys out there. Jehovah Witnesses are big on New Light doctrine. Because during the turn of the century that was in vogue. But, sister, you always point towards minorities within the organization. New light isn't a teaching like it is within the Jay Hove Witnesses.

But, let me ask you this, do you believe the Word of God is infallible?

Old time "light doctrine" included bobbed hair as a cool thing? Somehow I'm a-doubting that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What I am here for, and many people don't understand, is to help those who are in a miserable mind prison find their way out. Fences aren't all bad. It's when people say "You need my fence or you are lost" and even more importantly, when someone believes they need someone else's fence or they are lost, that is an even bigger problem yet because it could be that that fence is keeping them from a closer walk with God for their own life because they are following a fence not create for them.



Not your job.



That is not for you to determine.

There you go.

Look folks, you can follow ILG.

She promises you a better way, better than those mean men who told you XYZ. Now for free, you have ILG who has no checks and balances in her own life. No one who will tell her she is wrong up close and personal. But she wants to help you out of your MIND PRISON?

MIND PRISON?

Where is that in the Bible?

[Aquila]

It gets real old, and when you are giving book, chapter, and verse and they give you Brother Stoneking, Bunch and Breeze, you just shake your head.

Bunch and Breeze! I haven't heard of them in forever. Lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Old time "light doctrine" included bobbed hair as a cool thing? Somehow I'm a-doubting that.

ILG is here evangelizing to get her membership up over at her FB page.

She cringes when she sees a butch cut?

Boy, that's going to open a can O worms. :lol

[Aquila]

Is a woman in sin if she has a butch cut?

http://www.butchwonders.com/uploads/2/4/8/6/2486969/7882310_orig.png

Is there a verse saying it's a "sin"?

It's ugly. It might be seen as immodest, challenging social mores and cultural expectations. Modesty seeks no extreme in style, be it a butch cut or hair down to the ankles.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So lots of women out there who will have a closer walk with God if they just cut their hair?

Wow.

You mean like her?

https://chemicallyenhancedbutch.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/big-dyke.jpg

[n david]

Please stop with these awful pics!

:vomit

[Aquila]

You mean like her?

https://chemicallyenhancedbutch.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/big-dyke.jpg

She looks like my uncle. Lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

http://blog.godreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/blog190410_chaz.jpg

She must have real angel commanding power now.

I wonder how that woman dried Jesus' feet with Page Boy haircut? :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

Please stop with these awful pics!

:vomit

:lol :highfive

Hey I heard she is lifting weights now.

Maybe with that guy at Planet Fitness

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://i0.wp.com/dougwils.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Dykes.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

[Evang.Benincasa]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_110wcPq1TEY/S-3JzJbRCSI/AAAAAAAAGNo/G5QENxNX7iE/s1600/Elena-Kagan-former-Dean-o-006.jpg

I think Elaina Kagel is gringy, especially her MAN CUT.

[Aquila]

Well, one thing we can know for sure is that these women aren't practicing classical witchcraft. Lol

[Esaias]

Well, one thing we can know for sure is that these women aren't practicing classical witchcraft. Lol

No, they're "spirit cooking" with fellow democrats down at the local pizza parlor.

[n david]

:lol :highfive

Hey I heard she is lifting weights now.

Maybe with that guy at Planet Fitness
:lol

[houston]

Bro, you know what that means.

It's like when a feminazi screams, "I don't need you to mansplain anything to me."

That is how I took it...

[houston]

You are correct, not everyone is bitter.

But those people don't take huge amounts of time belly aching on a forum. About what they been through. They move on, and leave what hurt them far behind. They forgive, and rebuild their lives. Hanging around that which you claim caused you pain to take an occasional stab at, is called revenge. That's not moving forward in healing, that is staying stagnant and stinking. After a while everyone stop listening because no solutions are ever found. Just digging up the cat litter to inhale the ammonia.

You are absolutely right.

[houston]

Houston?

Did she just say what I think she said? :heeheehee

bahahaha!! I'm sorry, seester, there is an order set in motion by God. You are fighting against God.

[houston]

Is a woman in sin if she has a butch cut?

http://www.butchwonders.com/uploads/2/4/8/6/2486969/7882310_orig.png

Eww eww eww. See, this is something I don't get. Women that go liberal and claim that they still believe in distinction between the sexes, yet they go and do this to their hair. It really grosses me out.

[houston]

Is there a verse saying it's a "sin"?

It's ugly. It might be seen as immodest, challenging social mores and cultural expectations. Modesty seeks no extreme in style, be it a butch cut or hair down to the ankles.

You can't tell that she is a lesbian?

[Aquila]

You can't tell that she is a lesbian?

I assumed she might be. Or she's a radical feminist liberal.

But the question was regarding hair.

[Amanah]

Is there a verse saying it's a "sin"?

It's ugly. It might be seen as immodest, challenging social mores and cultural expectations. Modesty seeks no extreme in style, be it a butch cut or hair down to the ankles.

she is going to bust hell wide open, her butch haircut is a sign of her open rebellion against God.

[Aquila]

she is going to bust hell wide open, her butch haircut is a sign of her open rebellion against God.

True.

And uncut hair is witchcraft, especially if one believes ur gives some magic power.

The extremes are of Hell.

True modesty has no extreme.

[houston]

And uncut hair is witchcraft.

What?

[Amanah]

True.

And uncut hair is witchcraft, especially if one believes ur gives some magic power.

The extremes are of Hell.

True modesty has no extreme.

The bible says if a women has long hair it is a glory to her

komaō
to let the hair grow, have long hair
Strong’s Definitions [?] (Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κομάω komáō, kom-ah'-o; from G2864; to wear tresses of hair:—have long hair.


δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise.

[Amanah]

The bible says if a women has long hair it is a glory to her

komaō
to let the hair grow, have long hair
Strong’s Definitions [?] (Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κομάω komáō, kom-ah'-o; from G2864; to wear tresses of hair:—have long hair.


δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise.

-----------------

short hair on the other hand is shame, base, and dishonorable.

αἰσχρός aischrós, ahee-skhros'; from the same as G153; shameful, i.e. base (specially, venal):—filthy.

[votivesoul]

The funny thing, in a really unfunny way, is that almost all the hoop-la in 1 Corinthians 11 and the "hair issue" is really only ever focused on women.

I submit that if men don't understand why they ought not to have long hair, then understanding why a woman should, is just about impossible.

I think we need to shift the focus. The man was not made for the woman. The woman is the image of the man, and not vice versa. The woman was created for the man, and not vice versa. If the church and saints in general would chill for a moment about hair length on women, and find out why (short) hair length on men is so crucial, they'd see more clearly the reason why a woman's hair is to be long, flowing down her back like the tail of a comet.

So maybe we could stop talking about hair for awhile and start talking about the head, or kephale, because that's the topic in the chapter that matters the most.

1 Corinthians 11:10,

For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels...

For what cause? On account of what thing?

Verse 9 spills it right here:

Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

The reason a woman ought to have power on her head, because of the angels, is because the man was not created for the woman, but rather, the woman was created for the man.

God made Adam first. Adam, not Eve, was the priority. She was created to provide companionship and to assist Adam in his role as representative of God on earth, to tend the Garden of Paradise, but Adam was created to be the agent that ruled over God's creation. Not Eve.

So, unless we can figure out why God made Adam first, why Eve was created second, and not as an equal, but merely as Adam's administrative assistant, and the vessel through which he could multiply and "replenish the earth", we're going to have a real hard time understanding what Paul is getting at.

And this lack of understanding, I believe, has led to confusion and uncertainty, and many proceed forward, because someone said so, never realizing that whatsoever proceedeth not from faith is sin.

So, forget hair for awhile and start talking causation, purpose, and destiny, behind God's creative act in making Adam in His image and likeness. Make sense of that, and the rest will begin to fall into place.

[Amanah]

Votive, what do you think "because of the angels" means?

[votivesoul]

Votive, what do you think "because of the angels" means?

The word translated "because" is a preposition in Greek, namely dia.

This preposition refers to the channel of the act, or the means by which some "thing" is accomplished. It is therefore often translated as "by" in the KJV, and when this is the case, "by" typically means "through".

In any language, prepositions are designed to help predicate the meaning of the nouns and noun phrases surrounding it. To predicate meaning is "to preach" (In Latin: predicare) the meaning, or to help make sense of what the sentence is about.

So what does dia, in this instance, "preach" to us?

First, before I answer, let me say that I believe Paul's use of the word "angels" or aggelous refers to actual, heavenly angels, and not simply human "messengers". I also don't think Paul is making any reference to so-called "fallen" angels.

Now then, to answer the question. Dia here means on the account of, or for the sake of. So, why would a woman need to have power or exousia on her head or kephale?

Well, what is power/exousia and what does Paul mean by saying this power/exousia needs to be on her "head" or kephale?

Exousia refers not just to power in the sense of might or ability to do some "thing", it also expresses the right and authority to exercise that might in order to be able to do that "thing".

So, that's what is supposed to be on a woman's "head" or kephale. And, in verse 9, Paul's shows clearly that the reason this power/exousia is supposed to be upon her head or kephale is because, Adam was not created for Eve, but rather Eve was created for Adam, and on down the list, of every man and woman created by God.

This being the case, head or kephale, from the phrase "power on her head because of the angels" can in no way be referring to her actual head, as in her noggin, but rather, to her husband as head/kephale over the woman.

Now, note. I underlined "over" on purpose. Here's why:

The "on" from "power on her head" is the Greek preposition epi, and it means "on, over, or above". So, this power or exousia is supposed to not just be "on" her head/kephale in the way we sit on a chair, but rather, this power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her head, because of the angels.

So what power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her husband?

Paul tells us. It's Christ, the head of every man. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, in His Father's throne. He is surrounded by an innumerable host of angels, including the four living beings or cherubim, as described in Ezekiel and Revelation.

When a woman has long hair, she shows submission to her husband as her "head" or kephale by honoring her husband's "head" or kephale which is Jesus. These angels surrounding Him on His Father's throne belong to Him and are His to command.

By honoring the Lord with long hair, she is honoring the angels that minister before the Lord, and sing His adoration on down through the ages. In Isaiah 6, for example, we read of angels that veil their heads with two of their wings, as they fly through the heavenly temple crying "Holy, Holy, Holy, Is The Lord God Almighty...".

So that's why a woman ought to have power on her head because of the angels. It speaks to her submission and place of helper underneath her husband's authority over her, and to Jesus Christ, her husband's and authority's head and authority.

The woman is not to stand out. She is to be modest, even shame-faced. In the church, she is to keep silence and defer any questions or misunderstandings to her husband's counsel and wisdom. She keeps and guides the house. I'm sure you know and believe these verses. But what of the man? He is to remain uncovered, because he's the image and glory of God. It is his job to reflect to the world the divine order of things. He does so symbolically by keeping his hair short.

In the ancient world, it was the men, and not the women, who sat in the gates. Look, for example, to Proverbs 31. The woman hustles and bustles about to keep her home in order, and if she does so, she will have praise in the gates. Why? Because that's where her husband sits with the other men, and there, he can brag on his wife to the other men, and the other men can see how blessed he is to have such a wife.

It is the established order, specifically designed by God, maintained in the world by all who fear God, and it will never change. Men and women are not equals, apart from salvation. Men have God-given abilities and responsibilities that far outweigh those of a woman's. Men are typically stronger in body. They are typically taller, faster, more durable, need a higher in-take of calories, and on the list it goes.

In Deuteronomy 22:5, a famous and infamous passage of Scripture (but tangentially related to this topic), the items which pertain to a man that that verse is talking about, isn't about simply clothing. It's about "gear" or an apparatus, typically translated elsewhere as "armor", but also sometimes translated as "tool" and "weapon".

The point is, men have roles in the public and private life in the world that women don't have, and that's okay. It's the same for woman, both in public and in private. That's okay, too. Well, one of the roles that God gives to a woman is to be in subjection to her husband, and not only to him, but also to Him, that is, her husband's "head", even Jesus of Nazareth.

Angels are all around us, and are with us wherever we go, and in whatever we do, as long as it's Godly. They are given as ministers to the heirs of salvation, but they are not ours to control. They belong to Jesus. And as agents of His holiness, reflecting His glory and splendor, when they are involved in the church, when the saints meet and pray and prophesy, they are to be respected and honored. When saints meet and everything is in proper order, when spiritual decorum is maintained, and the head of every man is honored and respected, the angels present in that meeting are allowed to freely participate under Christ's guidance and command.

But when things are disordered, hectic, chaotic, divisive, when men and women are disobedient to the Lord they profess to love and serve, when they get together, Christ isn't honored and respected, no matter how much they may otherwise claim, and in this way, Christ's angels are restricted from participating, until flesh is crucified, humility and repentance are sought, and a renewing of the otherwise carnal mind is achieved.

Therefore, the woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. Instead, or rather, it is a token of her submission (that is, her very lack of power or authority), to her husband and her husband's head. It's a way of showing the world she is under the power and authority God gave in this life, to be over her.

[Amanah]

thank you Brother, awesome explanation.

[houston]

Mind blown. Thanks, Votive.

[Aquila]

The bible says if a women has long hair it is a glory to her

komaō
to let the hair grow, have long hair
Strong’s Definitions [?] (Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κομάω komáō, kom-ah'-o; from G2864; to wear tresses of hair:—have long hair.


δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise.

Long, I agree.

Uncut, eh, that's iffy.

Besides, if that's the case, a man can have his hair down to his waist, but cut, and it would be fine.

And on a basic level, unless a woman was born into a church that believes in uncut hair, the odds are that her hair has been cut at some point during her lifetime. So, it is cut no matter how long she wears it now.

[houston]

Something that came to mind as I was reading Votive's post is culture.

Just a few decades ago women cropped their hair in rebellion, I mean, liberation. (LOL) That went against Western culture. So why is it acceptable today? For no reason other than the passing of time.

[votivesoul]

When God gave Adam a wife, whom he named Eve, or the Mother of All Living, God gave Adam an ayzer, translated as "helpmeet" in the KJV. But "helpmeet" doesn't really mean anything anymore, like it used to. It was understood at the time to mean a helper who was meet, or suitable, for Adam.

Eve was created to be well-suited to Adam's needs. She was put in the Garden next to him to assist him in everything God ordered him (and not her) to do. Her role, while pivotal, was still secondary.

This is why Paul writes that Eve, being deceived, was in transgression. She assumed a level of authority over Adam in making a decision about eating the fruit, without her husband's counsel. She permitted an outside influence a place of power over her, that only Adam should have had. She stepped out from underneath Adam's and therefore God's, protection. And when she did, her eyes were opened, she became like elohim, just as God said she would, and suddenly, Adam was under her control, feeling inferior, and so, also ate, that he may become like her in becoming like elohim.

How many men today, in the church, follow their women around, seemingly less spiritual, less gifted, less devoted, less everything, compared to their wives? How many wives have usurped their heads? And why do they do so? What are they so afraid of? Why won't they stand up and "quit themselves like men"? I'll tell you in a single word:

Sex.

Yes, this is mature, and no, I'm not going there, when it comes to the particulars. But a man who thinks his conjugal rights are in danger will often kowtow to whatever mama bear wants. Sure, she's defrauding her husband if she does this, and it's a sin, but many a man would rather allow for his wife to sit in the gates in his place, as long as the marriage bed remains available to him. Look up Jezebel in 1 Kings 21:25, how she "stirred up" Ahab so that he would work wickedness in the sight of the LORD.

Here's what stirred up means:

Perhaps denominative from shayith; properly, to prick, i.e. (figuratively) stimulate; by implication, to seduce...

From: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5496.htm

A man will willingly be seduced and enticed by a Jezebel, a name which can mean "un-husbanded" (see link directly below), and allow her all sorts of power and authority over him, as long as she meets him in the sheets.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/348.htm

In such scenarios, the husband becomes the suitable helper, the assistant, who follows his wife around. He does so simply for no other reason than he's been made to believe she has become like an elohim, and the only hope of him doing and becoming the same, is if he follows her lead, even if it means following her into sin, and in Adam's case, into introducing death to the whole world and upon the whole of humanity.

So, this is what's at stake, and what's at play, in the spiritual realities that surround us. God is testing our mettle. Can we obey in the smallest, most paltry of commands, like how we take care of our hair? If we can't subject ourselves to His commandments on these rather miniscule, tertiary or lower, level doctrines, what does it say about us?

He that was faithful in little gets made ruler over much. So being faithful in this little thing can be the key to being made ruler over much, chiefly, in the case of a woman, a ruler over the appropriate role and designation that God gives: over the children, the household, the affairs of the home, and etc.

When I ask my daughter to put her shoes in the shoe rack, and she goes and cleans her bedroom instead, and her shoes remain on the living room floor, it doesn't matter so much to me that she went and cleaned her room. That's nice and all, but it wasn't what I wanted. I asked her for something small and easy, and she went out of her way to go and do something else, that was big and challenging. Lots of women go out of their way to do the same thing, and neglect the small, easy thing God actually desired in the first place.

It's the same thing regarding 1 Corinthians 11 and the "hair" issue.

[JoeBandy]

Something that came to mind as I was reading Votive's post is culture.

Just a few decades ago women cropped their hair in rebellion, I mean, liberation. (LOL) That went against Western culture. So why is it acceptable today? For no reason other than the passing of time.

IMO the whole issue is cultural.

[Aquila]

The word translated "because" is a preposition in Greek, namely dia.

This preposition refers to the channel of the act, or the means by which some "thing" is accomplished. It is therefore often translated as "by" in the KJV, and when this is the case, "by" typically means "through".

In any language, prepositions are designed to help predicate the meaning of the nouns and noun phrases surrounding it. To predicate meaning is "to preach" (In Latin: predicare) the meaning, or to help make sense of what the sentence is about.
So what does dia, in this instance, "preach" to us?

First, before I answer, let me say that I believe Paul's use of the word "angels" or aggelous refers to actual, heavenly angels, and not simply human "messengers". I also don't think Paul is making any reference to so-called "fallen" angels.

Now then, to answer the question. Dia here means on the account of, or for the sake of. So, why would a woman need to have power or exousia on her head or kephale?

Well, what is power/exousia and what does Paul mean by saying this power/exousia needs to be on her "head" or kephale?

Exousia refers not just to power in the sense of might or ability to do some "thing", it also expresses the right and authority to exercise that might in order to be able to do that "thing".

So, that's what is supposed to be on a woman's "head" or kephale. And, in verse 9, Paul's shows clearly that the reason this power/exousia is supposed to be upon her head or kephale is because, Adam was not created for Eve, but rather Eve was created for Adam, and on down the list, of every man and woman created by God.

This being the case, head or kephale, from the phrase "power on her head because of the angels" can in no way be referring to her actual head, as in her noggin, but rather, to her husband as head/kephale over the woman.

Now, note. I underlined "over" on purpose. Here's why:

The "on" from "power on her head" is the Greek preposition epi, and it means "on, over, or above". So, this power or exousia is supposed to not just be "on" her head/kephale in the way we sit on a chair, but rather, this power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her head, because of the angels.

So what power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her husband?

Paul tells us. It's Christ, the head of every man. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, in His Father's throne. He is surrounded by an innumerable host of angels, including the four living beings or cherubim, as described in Ezekiel and Revelation.

When a woman has long hair, she shows submission to her husband as her "head" or kephale by honoring her husband's "head" or kephale which is Jesus. These angels surrounding Him on His Father's throne belong to Him and are His to command.

By honoring the Lord with long hair, she is honoring the angels that minister before the Lord, and sing His adoration on down through the ages. In Isaiah 6, for example, we read of angels that veil their heads with two of their wings, as they fly through the heavenly temple crying "Holy, Holy, Holy, Is The Lord God Almighty...".

So that's why a woman ought to have power on her head because of the angels. It speaks to her submission and place of helper underneath her husband's authority over her, and to Jesus Christ, her husband's and authority's head and authority.

The woman is not to stand out. She is to be modest, even shame-faced. In the church, she is to keep silence and defer any questions or misunderstandings to her husband's counsel and wisdom. She keeps and guides the house. I'm sure you know and believe these verses. But what of the man? He is to remain uncovered, because he's the image and glory of God. It is his job to reflect to the world the divine order of things. He does so symbolically by keeping his hair short.

In the ancient world, it was the men, and not the women, who sat in the gates. Look, for example, to Proverbs 31. The woman hustles and bustles about to keep her home in order, and if she does so, she will have praise in the gates. Why? Because that's where her husband sits with the other men, and there, he can brag on his wife to the other men, and the other men can see how blessed he is to have such a wife.

It is the established order, specifically designed by God, maintained in the world by all who fear God, and it will never change. Men and women are not equals, apart from salvation. Men have God-given abilities and responsibilities that far outweigh those of a woman's. Men are typically stronger in body. They are typically taller, faster, more durable, need a higher in-take of calories, and on the list it goes.

In Deuteronomy 22:5, a famous and infamous passage of Scripture (but tangentially related to this topic), the items which pertain to a man that that verse is talking about, isn't about simply clothing. It's about "gear" or an apparatus, typically translated elsewhere as "armor", but also sometimes translated as "tool" and "weapon".

The point is, men have roles in the public and private life in the world that women don't have, and that's okay. It's the same for woman, both in public and in private. That's okay, too. Well, one of the roles that God gives to a woman is to be in subjection to her husband, and not only to him, but also to Him, that is, her husband's "head", even Jesus of Nazareth.

Angels are all around us, and are with us wherever we go, and in whatever we do, as long as it's Godly. They are given as ministers to the heirs of salvation, but they are not ours to control. They belong to Jesus. And as agents of His holiness, reflecting His glory and splendor, when they are involved in the church, when the saints meet and pray and prophesy, they are to be respected and honored. When saints meet and everything is in proper order, when spiritual decorum is maintained, and the head of every man is honored and respected, the angels present in that meeting are allowed to freely participate under Christ's guidance and command.

But when things are disordered, hectic, chaotic, divisive, when men and women are disobedient to the Lord they profess to love and serve, when they get together, Christ isn't honored and respected, no matter how much they may otherwise claim, and in this way, Christ's angels are restricted from participating, until flesh is crucified, humility and repentance are sought, and a renewing of the otherwise carnal mind is achieved.

Therefore, the woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. Instead, or rather, it is a token of her submission (that is, her very lack of power or authority), to her husband and her husband's head. It's a way of showing the world she is under the power and authority God gave in this life, to be over her.

I agree with about 90% of this. Excellent post by the way.

Where we disagree is that I believe that Paul was applying the this concept to an actual covering. He could have begun by saying hair immediately, but he didn't. Paul only mentions hair in a supplemental polemic saying, "Doth not even nature teach you..." In other words, Paul was drawing from nature an argument to support the fact that a woman should be veiled.

If we had a time machine, we could go backwards in time with any Apostolic woman. And regardless as to if her hair was cut or not, as long as it was considered "long", she'd be viewed as a shameful and immodest thing if she wasn't wearing her veil. In Paul's day a woman wore this article of modesty, demonstrating that she honors her head (her husband) and that she is submitted to him as such.

Because it reads as follows:

I Corinthians 11:3-15
3 But I would have you know, that the (authority) of every man is Christ; and the (authority) of the woman is the man; and the (authority) of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head (veiled), dishonoureth his (authority, i.e. Christ).
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head (unveiled) dishonoureth her (husband): for that is even all one as if she were shaven (a shameful state of a woman shamed publically for immorality).
6 For if the woman be not (veiled), let her also be shorn (a form of public humiliation for immodest and unfaithful women): but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be (veiled).
7 For a man indeed ought not to (veil) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her (husband) because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (unveiled) ?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a (veil).

Paul's point is that a woman honors her husband and recognizes his authority when she wears her veil and is adorned with modesty. Don't believe him? Doesn't even nature teach us that long hair on a man is a shameful thing? But if a woman has long hair, it adorns her in beauty, and so, even nature illustrates that she should be covered.

It's about modesty and submission to the authority of the husband, so that the proper order can be born out in the natural as you eloquently explained.

Now, we can exchange any form of immodesty and it would read the same. For example, "low cut blouses"...

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with (a low cut blouse) dishonoureth her (husband):"

It's about correcting women who were looking like loose women by being unveiled in gatherings (something only proper at home) and thereby dishonoring their husbands publically and showing contempt for his authority over them in their refusal to wear their veils. They were taking their "freedom in Christ" too far.

It's not even about hair. Hair was only a supplemental example offered to support the man point which was that a woman should be veiled. It is about women honoring their husbands, and showing their submission to their husband's authority, through public modesty. And this is what the angels see. It isn't about hair.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--6ks6RmRUfs/UaK__2-NRuI/AAAAAAAAAaw/lEGmwdkpe6E/s1600/veil5.jpg

[votivesoul]

1 Timothy 5:21,

I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Here, Paul commanded Timothy to do some things, and this command was given to Timothy by Paul, not only before or in the presence of God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, but also before or in the presence of God's elect angels, thus showing that angels are heavily involved in the church, in and among the ministry, and have a role to play in the giving and fulfilling of apostolic commandments as recorded in the Holy Scriptures.

To disobey these charges, as given by Paul or other Apostles, is to not only dismiss them in front of God, or in front of the Lord Jesus Christ, but to also disobey and dismiss these charges in front of God's elect angels. And that's a big deal.

But why? Because the Father's holy angels are in heaven and they always behold His face, even as they are assigned to the "little ones" who believe in Jesus, that is, the humble and meek men and women who have become like children in order to receive the Kingdom of God.

Offending these angels is a serious issue. In the passage of Scripture in which Jesus talks about these angels always beholding the face of His Father in Heaven, He is talking about offenses, and how it would be better for the one offending to tie a millstone around his neck and cast himself into the sea, and He says this BECAUSE these holy angels behold His Father's face.

So risking damnation by offending a sincere, humble believer in Christ not only hurts and offends that believer, it also messes with their angels. Jesus doesn't give any other details, of how that actually plays out in the real world, but He does make it pretty clear it's a big no-no.

(See Matthew 18:1-10).

[n david]

And uncut hair is witchcraft,
https://media.tenor.com/images/5c235351599ada33a113e6f00398d1ee/tenor.gif

[Aquila]

n david,

The notion of uncut hair reflecting witchcraft goes way back. In 1633, Bessie Skebister was accused and convicted in Scotland of causing her neighbor, Margaret Mudie, to become sick by shaking her uncut hair at her (Cooper 197). Even amongst heathen cultures in India and Mexico, as the Catholic church advanced, witches were identified by their uncut hair and were shorn as part of their prosecution. As far back as the ancient Aztecs, tribes would crop the hair of a captured witch, thereby taking from them “all their power of sorcery and enchantment.” (Frazer 486)

Even the origins of the story, "Rapunzel", going well back before the 1600's and reflecting elements of the 11th century Persian tale, "Rudāba", which has much symbolic and occult meanings relating to witchcraft.

In fact, witches (pagans practicing witchcraft) were known to let their uncut hair down and shake it as part of their rituals and to invoke power. Christian women covered their hair (cut or uncut) as a sign of submission and modesty.

Paul would have women submit and cover their hair in modesty. Satan would have them grow it uncut, uncovered, and promise them supernatural honor and power over familiar spirits (which many mistaken for being angels today).

It's clearly an issue of modesty and submission in attire (namely the veil), not hair.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/f3/31/a3f3316d3921472368ae69cb913f3e81.jpg

[houston]

I was trying to find the symposium papers by Seagraves and Bernard. The links are dead. Anyway...

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=29063

[houston]

https://media.tenor.com/images/5c235351599ada33a113e6f00398d1ee/tenor.gif

I did the exact same thing. Lol

[Aquila]

The point is, dating all the way back into antiquity many pagan cultures and their "witches" typically valued uncut hair. Not only did they place great value on uncut hair, but they also attributed spiritual powers to their hair. They were also easily identified by their hair. They also would wear their hair down and uncovered as part of ritual and in order to be identified.

Thus the two (uncut hair and holy magic hair) are linked to witchcraft.

Paul wasn't even talking about hair. In fact, Paul was discussing submission to headship, honoring one's husband through the modesty of wearing the veil.

I Corinthians 11:3-15
3 But I would have you know, that the (authority) of every man is Christ; and the (authority) of the woman is the man; and the (authority) of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head (veiled), dishonoureth his (authority, i.e. Christ).
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head (unveiled) dishonoureth her (husband): for that is even all one as if she were shaven (a shameful state of a woman shamed publically for immorality).
6 For if the woman be not (veiled), let her also be shorn (a form of public humiliation for immodest and unfaithful women): but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be (veiled).
7 For a man indeed ought not to (veil) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her (husband) because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (unveiled) ?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a (veil).

[ILG]

Therefore, the woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. Instead, or rather, it is a token of her submission (that is, her very lack of power or authority), to her husband and her husband's head. It's a way of showing the world she is under the power and authority God gave in this life, to be over her.

I agree that a woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. I do agree that, according to the Bible, a woman's long hair is a sign. I think that when you take this sign and twist it into uncut hair=a woman has power and control, you have a big problem.

To reiterate-the Bible never says a woman's uncut hair will give her power and control. That is what my original post says. It never says a lot of the things I am accused of saying.

[ILG]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1495583]I agree with about 90% of this. Excellent post by the way.


Me too. I thought it was quite good.

[n david]

Thus the two (uncut hair and holy magic hair) are linked to witchcraft.
Uncut hair is NOT witchcraft. #StopIt

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Thus the two (uncut hair and holy magic hair) are linked to witchcraft.

I think holy magic hair is linked to witchcraft. Uncut hair is just uncut hair. If you believe your uncut hair gives you power and control=witchcraft. If you have uncut hair, you just have uncut hair.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think holy magic hair is linked to witchcraft. Uncut hair is just uncut hair. If you believe your uncut hair gives you power and control=witchcraft. If you have uncut hair, you just have uncut hair.

Isn't magic hair what is on the top of Troll dolls?

UPCI has no official position on this so called world wide doctrine.

[ILG]

Isn't magic hair what is on the top of Troll dolls?

UPCI has no official position on this so called world wide doctrine.

Surprising how offended people get when I speak against this position then.

[Evang.Benincasa]

It's like when a feminazi screams, "I don't need you to mansplain anything to me."

That is how I took it...

Yes, sad, and then they blame everything on men. They even get some men to go on their side you agree how bad men are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Surprising how offended people get when I speak against this position then.

I think it is more on the line of worn out same old same old. Sister, you live a life in your universe in a state of offenses. That is your sole motivation. You posted that you are here to free people from their mind prison. Therefore we are just merely tools to drum up business for you. Sis, we have come a long way, and we could bump miles of threads on the same discussion. If anyone is offended they are new to this forum game. Also they have never Met Emma Bonecrusher. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

No, they're "spirit cooking" with fellow democrats down at the local pizza parlor.

No one wants to talk about that now.
They are too busy tearing down statues.

[ILG]

I think it is more on the line of worn out same old same old. Sister, you live a life in your universe in a state of offenses. That is your sole motivation. You posted that you are here to free people from their mind prison. Therefore we are just merely tools to drum up business for you. Sis, we have come a long way, and we could bump miles of threads on the same discussion. If anyone is offended they are new to this forum game. Also they have never Met Emma Bonecrusher. :lol

People treated me the same way with character assassination when I was still in the UPC, all the ideas were fresh and I still had long, uncut hair. I know, I know, this will also be blamed on me. You'll dig up some reason because that's how it works. It's never just simply because the doctrine doesn't make any sense. But I know it doesn't. Anyway, I'm tired of this debate now, Evangelista Beningoober. Until next time....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Eww eww eww. See, this is something I don't get. Women that go liberal and claim that they still believe in distinction between the sexes, yet they go and do this to their hair. It really grosses me out.

Because even secular people understand the truth about hair.

Not that you can summon Neptune with your sideburns. But the plain difference in hair between male and female.

[Evang.Benincasa]

People treated me the same way with character assassination when I was still in the UPC, all the ideas were fresh and I still had long, uncut hair. I know, I know, this will also be blamed on me. You'll dig up some reason because that's how it works. It's never just simply because the doctrine doesn't make any sense. But I know it doesn't. Anyway, I'm tired of this debate now, Evangelista Beningoober. Until next time....

But, sis, your arguments don't make any sense. Character assignation? I'm just reading your posts. You posted that you are here to get people out of their mind prison. Wait, now you're tired? Did you get an ample supply of PMs to fill the monthly quota? The doctrine which you constantly accuse us all of believing is nonsense. Yet you don't want us to explain or debate. We are just a means to an end to you. Hope it all works out for you.

[n david]

But, sis, your arguments don't make any sense. Character assignation? I'm just reading your posts. You posted that you are here to get people out of their mind prison. Wait, now you're tired? Did you get an ample supply of PMs to fill the monthly quota? The doctrine which you constantly accuse us all of believing is nonsense. Yet you don't want us to explain or debate. We are just a means to an end to you. Hope it all works out for you.

Rinse and repeat. Ad infinitum. Ad nauseam.