Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep [Archive] - Apostolic Friends Forum

peter83

11-30-2018, 12:20 PM

He's preaching from the Apocrypha. His church is even selling Bibles with the Apocrypha.

Here's a link. They even look like Quarans. Lol

https://www.truthofgod.com/store

He's resurrecting the image of Rev. Farrakhan, and baptizing it in Jesus name. His tough guy approach, and compromise with regards to the Apocrypha, is starting to look like another gimmick to distinguish his religious franchise from others.

Every good salesman needs a unique product. Lol
I have the same Bible :) almost ! My bibler has 10 more books because is the LXX .Did you knew that this was the Bbile of the Church? there are some quotes too! As for if they are inspired or no. Look i dont know! But i got encouraged when i listened that even Gino use them! So i dicided to read them for my self and see.
Until now i did not found any different "truths" or anything strange. The only problem was with the book of Judith because has some historical problems so i am not sure.
But when you read Ecclesiasticus...wow is perfect! Wisdom of Solomon is great too and has an entire prophesy for Jesus!
When you read Maccabees you get the pisture of the 400 years missing between Malachia and Jesus. You will be able to understand more tyhe gospels too! Because you understand how Jews were changes by Greeks (you will find for example how the Pharisees came etc.)

Give them a try and see! Dont be afraid but also dont trust Lutheran Scholars and theologians that they dont have even the Holy Spirit.
The first Church (not the one of Gino..) i mean the 1st Apostolic age church :)
they had them and read them. Some were considering them as inspired and other just "readable" (good books to read pesronal) but not for any doctrine.
Have in mind that:
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. :) God bless.

peter83

11-30-2018, 12:25 PM

The peanut gallery is still asking if we are going to take up an offering for First Church and Bishop Jennings.

Did I get this started? :kickcan

Gino does not even gets paid for Preach the word! He works like a man must do! He has a normal job and he does not take even 1 dolar from the Church :)
(listen sermons while he teach about money!)

peter83

11-30-2018, 12:26 PM

EVERY KJV only, has to accept the apocrypha too :) 1611 Bible has them.

Michael The Disciple

11-30-2018, 02:59 PM

Gino is good on soul sleep.

Michael The Disciple

11-30-2018, 03:01 PM

Gino does not even gets paid for Preach the word! He works like a man must do! He has a normal job and he does not take even 1 dolar from the Church :)
(listen sermons while he teach about money!)

Gino and his wife sell real estate. He condemns Preachers who take money from the Church.

Monterrey

11-30-2018, 05:49 PM

Gino and his wife sell real estate. He condemns Preachers who take money from the Church.

So is it wrong for those pastors to accept money from the church they lead?

Michael The Disciple

11-30-2018, 08:48 PM

Gino teaching on Preachers taking tithes and salaries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o4btbvoX1k

peter83

12-01-2018, 01:34 AM

Gino teaching on Preachers taking tithes and salaries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o4btbvoX1k

Do you have Facebook profile?

TyronePalmer

12-01-2018, 01:29 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eIWrqEZGbE&t=154s

Ecclesiastes written by the wisest man who ever lived or will live, for God said there will never be another man wiser than Solomon.

Ecclesiastes 3:12 "behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you."

That's a great blessing and honor given to Solomon!

But it seems that one who is greater than Solomon is not esteemed higher than him, nor His word. Sad that, but I'm not surprised because even many who walked with Jesus, witnessed His miracles heard His words directly from the Father on the throne in Heaven, did not believe in Him!

The carnal mind will never understand the things of the Spirit!

Indeed the spirit does go back to God who gave it. Gino did not do a good job explaining the difference between the soul and spirit. There IS a difference!

It's not easy to explain, nor are there many scriptures to prove the truth of the matter, but I believe there only needs to be one scripture given for the truth to be known and accepted. But that's me! lol

You do believe 2nd Timothy 3:16 right?

How about Hebrews 4:12-13

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

I'm sure that we all understand from this text that it's talking about Jesus, the LIVING WORD right? And not the written text of scripture? Can the scripture divide soul and spirit, or discern the thoughts and intents of the heart?

Or how about when Jesus gave up His spirit, but then the scriptures tells us in Acts 2 that death had it's hold on Him.

Luke 23:46

"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last."

We have read Acts 2 countless times, but have we really understood the truth of the text that's written there? It's obvious many have not!

Peter, an apostle of Jesus, having walked with the Lord before and after His resurrection stood up and spoke right after being baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire said:

Acts 2:22-28

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. For David says concerning Him: ‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

The text clearly says that God raised up Jesus from the dead, loosing Him from the PAINS of Death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. Then Peter quotes David who had a prophetic gift, saying that the SOUL of Jesus would not be left in Hades, but didn't Jesus commit His spirit to the Father? So how then could His soul be in Hades held by Death?

Because there IS a difference between the body(flesh), soul and spirit!

Peter continues to quote David who foresaw the resurrection of Christ.

Acts 2:31

"he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."

His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His body decompose! A clear distinction between the body and the soul here. At least for me it is!

There is no soul sleep and I pray that it doesn't take death on this earth and the afterlife for people to understand the truth!

Esaias

12-01-2018, 04:42 PM

There is no soul sleep ...

Your conclusion does not follow from what you wrote.

1ofthechosen

12-01-2018, 10:40 PM

Your conclusion does not follow from what you wrote.

He apparently is trying to split the Spirit and the Soul, which I don't believe anyone would disagree with, although I believe only God knows where one ends and the other begins. As why the Word of God "pierces even to the division of the Soul and the Spirit. Now, the rest I don't know how he is claiming this disproves soul sleep especially with the scripture from Acts that comes from the Psalms. I guess he's saying since they can be separated the body, soul, and spirit they are all immortal?

But im more confused by the explaination then anything else. Maybe he could explain this all more in depth.

TyronePalmer

12-01-2018, 11:39 PM

Your conclusion does not follow from what you wrote.

If the soul of Jesus did not sleep, why would ours? Isn't Jesus our perfect example?

peter83

12-02-2018, 12:18 AM

Ecclesiastes written by the wisest man who ever lived or will live, for God said there will never be another man wiser than Solomon.

Ecclesiastes 3:12 "behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you."

That's a great blessing and honor given to Solomon!

But it seems that one who is greater than Solomon is not esteemed higher than him, nor His word. Sad that, but I'm not surprised because even many who walked with Jesus, witnessed His miracles heard His words directly from the Father on the throne in Heaven, did not believe in Him!

The carnal mind will never understand the things of the Spirit!

Indeed the spirit does go back to God who gave it. Gino did not do a good job explaining the difference between the soul and spirit. There IS a difference!

It's not easy to explain, nor are there many scriptures to prove the truth of the matter, but I believe there only needs to be one scripture given for the truth to be known and accepted. But that's me! lol

You do believe 2nd Timothy 3:16 right?

How about Hebrews 4:12-13

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

I'm sure that we all understand from this text that it's talking about Jesus, the LIVING WORD right? And not the written text of scripture? Can the scripture divide soul and spirit, or discern the thoughts and intents of the heart?

Or how about when Jesus gave up His spirit, but then the scriptures tells us in Acts 2 that death had it's hold on Him.

Luke 23:46

"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last."

We have read Acts 2 countless times, but have we really understood the truth of the text that's written there? It's obvious many have not!

Peter, an apostle of Jesus, having walked with the Lord before and after His resurrection stood up and spoke right after being baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire said:

Acts 2:22-28

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. For David says concerning Him: ‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

The text clearly says that God raised up Jesus from the dead, loosing Him from the PAINS of Death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. Then Peter quotes David who had a prophetic gift, saying that the SOUL of Jesus would not be left in Hades, but didn't Jesus commit His spirit to the Father? So how then could His soul be in Hades held by Death?

Because there IS a difference between the body(flesh), soul and spirit!

Peter continues to quote David who foresaw the resurrection of Christ.

Acts 2:31

"he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."

His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His body decompose! A clear distinction between the body and the soul here. At least for me it is!

There is no soul sleep and I pray that it doesn't take death on this earth and the afterlife for people to understand the truth!

Sorry. The living word is Jesus. And the written word is also living :) Only with the Spirit can be understood because by the Spirit is written .
As for spirit and soul. Yes the written living word can separate your spirit from your soul :) In the Bible Soul is used also as "carnal" fleshy! Search the word "psychi" that means soul and see that is used as flash in the new testament! You know why ?
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
sensual also means "he who fallows his SOUL. :)
So resurrection is not when a spirit goes to heaven ,but when the spirit comes back to the body and soul.
Your bodu goes back to the dust -
Your soul (before Christ for sure) goes to Ades (ades is a place translated hell in English but is not hell!there was the soul of the reach man burned and suferd and the soul of Lazarus with Abraham too "23 And in hell(Ades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.")
Your spirit is what goes back to God (i dont know to explain it but thisa is what the bible says :) )Now some say that after Resurrection all souls goes to God,but i dont know if is like that
So yes the soul waits in the place of dead until the judgement and the spirit goes to God while your body is rotten in the grave. Only at Resurrection the three be one again and alive.

Esaias

12-02-2018, 12:49 AM

If the soul of Jesus did not sleep, why would ours? Isn't Jesus our perfect example?

What makes you think His soul did not "sleep"? What exactly do you think "soul sleep" is?

peter83

12-02-2018, 01:19 AM

What makes you think His soul did not "sleep"? What exactly do you think "soul sleep" is?

Good morning my brother! :) how are you?
i know you know some Greek words , so explain to him (if he ask) what the soul means and that is used everywhere in the bible as bad as flesh.
It is translated "flesh" but mean "he who fallows his soul" as opposite to "he who fallows the Spirit" spiritual vs soulish (aka sensual) :)
(now for the other thing , Jesus said "in your habds i give my spirit" and his soul went to Hades(the place for the dead ,underworld,that is translated hell.)
you see that Abraham and Lazarus are in hte same place but in different than the reach man . They are all at Hades(place of dead souls) until judgement but separate the just from the unjust. Now some say that afgter Jesus went there that all the souls of just saints insteact of the place at Hades goes in God.But they are liveing (or sleeping :) ) there until resurrection , or until the body and the soul with the spirit comes back to life.

But also i realize i dont exactly understand what is the point our brother wants to make with that post! :)

Esaias

12-02-2018, 01:56 AM

Good morning my brother! :) how are you?

Καλά. Εσu? I am just reading up on what is happening in France with the protests. Do you have any idea what is going on there?

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 05:36 AM

If the soul of Jesus did not sleep, why would ours? Isn't Jesus our perfect example?

Did Jesus "sleep" in death?

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

ALMOST all misunderstanding of this topic is related to this error. When immortal soul believers read verses like these, mentally they read it like this:

But now is CHRISTS BODY risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them DEAD BODIES that slept. For since by man came the DEATH OF THE BODY by man came also the resurrection of THE DEAD BODY.

When God is trying to teach them about death and resurrection they INSERT mentally that he is ONLY talking about death of the body. This is because their doctrine is that THE PERSON never dies. Only the body.

Therefore many verses where the Spirit is actually teaching us truth, they pervert by inserting their own doctrine into the text.

Thats how they can read the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, the place where there is more teaching about death and resurrection than anywhere else, like 50 some verses but ALL THEY SEE is the whole chapter ONLY speaks of the resurrection OF THE BODY.

Therefore the truth God is actually trying to teach bounces off of them.

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 05:49 AM

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 05:58 AM

Indeed the spirit does go back to God who gave it. Gino did not do a good job explaining the difference between the soul and spirit. There IS a difference!

Problem is that same verse that teaches the spirit goes back to God that gave it is teaching the spirits of ALL........not just the righteous goes back to God.

Ecc 12:5-7

5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Solomon makes no difference between the righteous and the wicked. God grants us life and takes it back. All of us.

Neither does the verse say anything about our spirits rejoicing in Heavens eternal life. No. Just that it returns to God.

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 06:46 AM

Acts 2:22-28

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

What is Peter preaching about? The fact that a man/person Jesus was slain. That this same one that was slain was raised up from death. The point is NOT......that a body was slain and resurrected but a PERSON.

Note the words "he" and "him" and "whom". Peter speaks of the MAN Jesus who died and rose again not merely his body, as it were a distinct person from his soul.

For David says concerning Him: ‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

Davids gift was here showing what CHRIST HIMSELF said. He said his flesh would rest in hope BECAUSE God would not leave his soul in SHEOL.

His soul was his person. His person was in Sheol. The place Solomon said there was nothing going on. No work, device, wisdom, or knowledge.

This is what immortal soul teaching confuses and obscures.

The PERSON Jesus had to die including his soul. If Jesus SOUL did not die it would have been a sure sign he was a false Messiah.

It was prophesied of the true Messiah, the lamb of God:

Isaiah 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

So Jesus being the true Messiah fulfilled the prophecy. His soul died.

Man is a soul.

Gen. 2:7

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When man dies his soul dies. When God breathed into his nostrils MAN became a living soul.

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 07:08 AM

Immortal soul doctrine denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:1-4

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Immortal soul teaches that CHRIST......DID NOT DIE! They say ONLY HIS BODY DIED.

Immortal soul teaches THIS gospel:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ's body died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that IT was buried, and that IT rose again the third day according to the scriptures: [/QUOTE]

This doctrine changes HE to IT.

So Isaiah prophesied that the lamb of God would give his SOUL an offering for sin and that he poured out his soul unto death, immortal soul heresy teaches his soul NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH!

So there is the perversion. Paul taught CHRIST DIED for our sins. Immortal soul teaches CHRIST NEVER DIED, only his body.

mfblume

12-02-2018, 08:18 AM

Carl

12-02-2018, 08:53 AM

Michael The Disciple

12-02-2018, 10:03 AM

There is no soul sleep. Paul says absence from body makes one present with the Lord, and there's no word hidden there that say it SEEMS like one passed from from life to heaven because the soul slept and time seemed to pass like lightning.

Lets demonstrate how this works.

Paul teaches the saints that died are asleep. Lets watch how his doctrine must be changed from the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.....to the resurrection of THE BODY. Switch the subject from PEOPLE that are asleep which Paul is teaching to merely BODIES which he is not teaching.

1 Thessalonaians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is what Paul taught. Lets see now what men do to his words.:heeheehee

Esaias

12-02-2018, 02:53 PM

Well that clears that up.

lol

Esaias

12-02-2018, 02:54 PM

mfblume

12-02-2018, 05:35 PM

Did Paul say that before AD70?

You betcha.

mfblume

12-02-2018, 05:37 PM

Lets demonstrate how this works.

Paul teaches the saints that died are asleep. Lets watch how his doctrine must be changed from the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.....to the resurrection of THE BODY. Switch the subject from PEOPLE that are asleep which Paul is teaching to merely BODIES which he is not teaching.

1 Thessalonaians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is what Paul taught. Lets see now what men do to his words.:heeheehee

Simple. The dead refers to the body.. Which is why we read absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

James 2:..26....For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

1ofthechosen

12-02-2018, 05:41 PM

Immortal soul doctrine denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul said:

Immortal soul teaches that CHRIST......DID NOT DIE! They say ONLY HIS BODY DIED.

Immortal soul teaches THIS gospel:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ's body died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that IT was buried, and that IT rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This doctrine changes HE to IT.

So Isaiah prophesied that the lamb of God would give his SOUL an offering for sin and that he poured out his soul unto death, immortal soul heresy teaches his soul NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH!

So there is the perversion. Paul taught CHRIST DIED for our sins. Immortal soul teaches CHRIST NEVER DIED, only his body.[/QUOTE]

Mention one verse where the Bible says a soul dies. And if you decide to use Ezekial 18:20 please explain in the context of this scripture how the use of the word "nephesh" here wouldn't just be translated person. Please and thank you.

1ofthechosen

12-02-2018, 05:43 PM

Lets demonstrate how this works.

Paul teaches the saints that died are asleep. Lets watch how his doctrine must be changed from the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.....to the resurrection of THE BODY. Switch the subject from PEOPLE that are asleep which Paul is teaching to merely BODIES which he is not teaching.

1 Thessalonaians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is what Paul taught. Lets see now what men do to his words.:heeheehee

So you think this proves a soul dies? Even if the soul was asleep it's not dead. Or do you die every night and then ressurect in the morning? If so you experience the rapture everyday of your life. What you are saying and explaining here I don't agree at all. But it maybe the way your explaining it.

1ofthechosen

12-02-2018, 06:05 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eIWrqEZGbE&t=154s

And the way he teaches this he uses Spirit and soul interchangeably. But he even says a spirit lives forever.

Esaias

12-02-2018, 06:47 PM

Simple. The dead refers to the body.. Which is why we read absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

James 2:..26....For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

Let's stay in context:

2 Cor 5
vs 1 says we know that if our current, mortal body were destroyed it's okay, because we have another body made by God waiting for us.
vs 2 says believers "groan" in their current mortal bodies, earnestly desiring to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.
vs 3 says "assuming we won't be found naked" when that happens. Nakedness here of course refers to moral nakedness, not being covered by the blood of Christ.
vs 4 says we are burdened, NOT DESIRING TO BE UNCLOTHED , that is, we do not desire to simply escape this mortal flesh body, but rather we desire and look forward to being clothed upon, by receiving the immortal resurrection body. "That mortality might be swallowed up by life" is an undeniable reference to resurrection, see 1 Cor 15:54.
vs 5 says God has fashioned us for this very thing (to receive a glorified immortal resurrection body) and has given us the Spirit as a down payment and as a good faith deposit towards this destiny.
vs 6 through 9 contain the "absent from the body" language under dispute.
vs 10 says we must all appear before the judgment seat to be judged. It also says this appearing is so each may receive the things done in his body, whether good or bad. Done and his are in italics, not present in the Greek, so literally may be read as "receive the things in body", in other words, may be judged in the body. This makes sense considering the judgment takes place at the resurrection, not before.

Now, if you are correct, you have some problems. Apostolic believers look forward to the resurrection, and are NOT looking forward to just leaving this body. Yet all who believe like you do in fact look forward to dying and flying away to heaven, the resurrection isn't really necessary for them.

Secondly, if you go to heaven to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, then mortality has been swallowed up of life before the resurrection, contrary to every other scripture on the subject.

Third, your belief implies the resurrection happens at death and does not involve any change to the original, mortal body.

Fourth, I know you believe in a resurrection so you would object to number 3 above, but in this you are being inconsistent.

Fifth, Paul never actually said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," as a declaration of fact, but instead as an attitude Christians have. "Willing to be" etc.

Sixth, Paul says we are confident, knowing to be dwelling at home in your own country "in the body" is to be "dwelling abroad or sojourning from" the Lord. This language is peculiar, and does not mean being inside a body vs being in front of the Lord, but living at home in the body vs sojourning on a foreign pilgrimage.

Seventh, Paul already said our confidence and desire is to receive the resurrection body (vs 1-4). Therefore, his statement in vs 6-8 must not be taken to mean something opposite to what he said in vs 1-4. But that is what your position does, you have him in vs 6-8 saying we are confident and willing to fly away from our body at death to be with the Lord, when he just got done saying specifically we DO NOT DESIRE such a thing at all, but RATHER to receive the resurrection body.

Eighth, the Bible teaches the spirit leaves the body at death and returns to God, which is nothing at all different than what Paul says in vs 6-8. Paul is explicitly affirming the truth of Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Ninth, the spirit returning to God, and the body returning to the earth, is called "death" and according to Scripture the dead do not have consciousness. Your view contradicts the Scripture's descriptions of the dead and would have Paul doing likewise, when in fact he is affirming the truth of Scripture that immortality is fully received in resurrection, not death.

Tenth, if the dead continue after death with conscious awareness, they must have a body of some kind. Only God can be a bodiless Spirit, otherwise we are all omnipresent. So your view has people receiving an immortal body before the resurrection, contrary to Scripture.

Eleventh, if not, then people who have an immortal spirit body already are looking forward to getting a second immortal body at the resurrection. This is straight up Egyptian Book of the Dead mythology.

Twelvth, nothing Paul said supports in anyway dead people being conscious, he said nothing about consciousness after death.

Esaias

12-02-2018, 07:01 PM

Those who believe in the immortal soul doctrine routinely say "you are already going to live forever, it's just a matter of where." They believe you do not really die, you fly away to your eternal home in either heaven or hell, immediately upon death. However:

The serpent said "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis ch 3:4)

God said "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel ch 18:4, 20)

God said concerning the wicked "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet." (Malachi ch 4:3)

God said comparing the fate of the righteous with the wicked "The LORD preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy." (Psalm 145:20)

Jesus said concerning God's only begotten Son "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (John ch 3:15, 16)

The doctrine that everyone - including the wicked and unbelieving - will 'live forerever' came straight out of the serpent's mouth. Not God's. Which is why all pagan religions believe in the immortality of the soul, in contrast to the bible truth of the necessity of resurrection by Jesus Christ.

Esaias

12-02-2018, 07:06 PM

Adam became a soul when his flesh body was embued with spirit from God. "And Adam became a living soul". So then a soul is the combination of a flesh body with spirit (breath or ruach or pneuma of life). Adam WAS a soul, not merely a being who 'possessed a soul'.

One's soul is one's person, one's life, one's existence as a living being. Souls are resurrected, not merely bodies, for PEOPLE are resurrected (not just their bodies).

Nobody goes to heaven automatically. AFTER the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus, Peter declared that David is 'not ascended into heaven' but rather Jesus Christ was. Jesus Christ is the only human being in heaven right now.

Paul taught that we receive immortality at the resurrection. Therefore we are not immortal until then. We can say we have eternal life now, but only because we are set aside for the resurrection unto life at the coming of the Lord. What we have is an earnest until the purchased possession is actually redeemed in fact in the resurrection. Therefore, upon death the soul does not leave the body and fly away up to heaven. The Bible NEVER SAYS THAT. What it DOES say is that upon death the flesh body of man returns to the earth/dust from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Since body and spirit are separated at death, there is no living soul during that time. Only in the resurrection, when the dead are raised to life, when spirit and soul are reunited, can such a thing be possible.

The Bible says the dead know nothing, they do not praise God, they have nothing to do with anything going on here on earth, they 'sleep'. Those who die in Christ are said to 'sleep in Jesus'. If one is conscious up in heaven as a bodiless spirit then the term 'sleep' has no genuine application, for that is not at all like sleep.

As for being 'naked' upon death, Paul said this:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The goal of the apostolic faith in the first century was NOT to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life. That is a clear reference to the resurrection. The hope of the first Christians was resurrection, not dying and flying away to heaven. Paul does not explicitly state that being dead equals being naked. This is an important point.

Paul says that being clothed (upon in resurrection) is to prevent being FOUND naked. Notice the following:

Rev_3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Paul is saying we earnestly desire ('groan') to be clothed upon (resurrected) IF SO BE THAT we do not appear 'naked'. The nakedness then is referring to not having our sins covered.

Rev_7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And,

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So Paul is saying their hope was to attain to the resurrection of LIFE, not being found 'naked' but clothed - not merely with a resurrected body but clothed in righteousness.

He refers to a disembodied state NOT as 'naked' but as 'unclothed'. The fact the two terms are used in their specific contexts indicates Paul is making a theological distinction between the two concepts of on the one hand being 'naked' as to righteousness or sin, and on the other hand of being clothed as to resurrection bodies. '...IF SO BE that being clothed we shall not be found naked...'

The doctrine that people go to heaven immediately upon death PRIOR to the resurrection makes the resurrection itself superfluous. If you die and go to heaven, why would you WANT to have a body again and be on the earth? Your final destination would be LESS GLORIOUS and LESS BEATIFIC than the intermediate state.

Furthermore, immortality is given at resurrection. That is when we become immortal. To be immortal PRIOR to the resurrection, in heaven, is to receive the final reward BEFORE THE JUDGMENT DAY, which makes the Judgment Day either superfluous or ridiculous. In fact, it seems a slight variation of SDA doctrine who maintain the Day of Judgment is NOT when any decisions are made regarding final destinies, but simply when the already decreed decisions are carried out. And I find that concept utterly absent from the Bible (although it can be found all over Ms. White's writings...)

Now let's look at this:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Notice the bolded part. Does this mean that the apostolic believers were WILLING to be 'absent from the body'? How can be when he just said the following:

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

If verse 8 means Paul was desiring to be 'absent from the body', and if absent from the body means in a disembodied state, then he flatly contradicted what he previously said just 4 verses earlier!

Therefore, it cannot mean THAT. Notice he did not say 'absent from our bodies' (plural), but WE (plural) are willing rather to be absent from THE BODY (singular). That might be a big clue as to what he is trying to get across to us...

Esaias

12-02-2018, 07:09 PM

In reviewing the statements made previously, and the passages in question, it seems that Paul is saying we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, that we will be present with the Lord in the resurrection, that we are looking forward to being 'clothed' with our resurrection bodies.

So, it seems Paul is saying that we are willing to be absent from THIS body of mortality, and present with the Lord (ie resurrected). (I am for the sake of the discussion willing to assume - at the moment - that the phrase 'absent from the body' means to be absent from our mortal bodies inherited from Adam, rather than 'body' being a metaphor for something else as in 'the body of Christ'.)

So then it seems that Paul is NOT teaching any interim state between physical death and physical resurrection, during which we are 'present with the Lord', or during which we are enjoying the 'Beatific Vision', etc.

This ties in with the rest of the Bible's teachings (as I described in the first post).

I believe that those who think that upon physical death, a Christian 'goes to heaven', are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches about the soul, as well as what the Bible teaches about the nature of immortality.

Many think they are a person who 'has a soul', as if the soul is a non physical entity or substance 'inside' their physical body. If that were the case, then there is nothing to say every person hasn't existed since the creation, and only 'came into this world' by God sending their soul into a body. (Arnold Murray, the Mormons, and some other groups teach this, as did the ancient Greeks and Hindus and Druids, etc). In fact, it is only one short step from such a thought to the idea of transmigration (reincarnation).

The Bible however teaches that man IS a soul. Genesis says 'and man became a living soul'. Paul repeats this in the NT. Adam was fashioned from the dust of the earth, and God breathed into him the 'breath' (spirit, ruach, pneuma) of life, and the man became a living soul. That is, the man became a living, breathing, animated person. A soul did not 'descend into his body', and neither did a soul 'ascend out of his body' when he died.

Here is what happens at death -

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The physical body returns to the earth, and the spirit (breath of life, the animating factor) returns to God. This is what happens to ALL people who die, the spirit that was in them, their human spirit, the 'breath of life' that animates their body and makes them 'alive' as opposed to being a slab of longshank, returns to God who gave it in the first place.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Beasts and humans 'all have one breath'. That word 'breath' is 'ruach' (pneuma in the Greek) and means 'spirit', the breath of life, the animating factor. Beasts and humans are 'alive', they aspirate, they breathe, they are animated by an immaterial energy that makes them LIVING. The difference however is in that final verse - the spirit of the beast returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God. God said 'let the EARTH bring forth beasts...' but in regard to man he said 'let us make man in our image'. In other words, the beasts come from the earth, and their spirit or breath returns to the earth. Man however comes from God, and his spirit returns to God.

Now, since man IS a living soul, by the union of 'breath' or spirit and 'dust' or flesh, and since death is the separation of breath from dust/spirit from flesh, it follows that the soul does not 'live on' in a distinct, conscious existence after death.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not any thing, that is, they have no conscious awareness of anything. Death results in 'unconsciousness'. The dead are not aware of anything, they do not think or perceive. Their passions are perished, that is, they do not experience emotion or feeling. They do not participate in anything taking place, they do not interact with the living, they are not involved in anything going on. Their reward has perished with them. A look at Ecclesiastes shows that a man's reward is to enjoy the fruits of his labours, and that takes place in this life, and the dead are 'departed' so their reward (in context) is gone and no more.

David understood this as well:

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

The only way the dead would praise God would be if they 'arise' (resurrection), for in the state of being dead they do no such thing. Death is referred to as 'the dark' and 'the land of forgetfulness', thus reinforcing the Biblical understanding that death is a state of unconsciousness.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise the Lord. They are known as those who 'go down into silence'. They go down into their graves (into the earth), and that is a place of 'silence' meaning no speaking, no sound, no praises, thus by extension no activity. Again, the grave (the condition of being dead) is a place of silence, darkness, lack of awareness.

The word 'sheol' was translated into Greek as 'Hades'. The word Hades is formed from the word eido meaning 'to see'. This is where we get the word 'idea' from. The word eido, when combined with the negative particle 'a' (along with the rough breathing or 'h') gives us hades, the land of NO SEEING, or literally 'no idea'. That is to say, no perception ie unconsciousness. That is an apt description of the condition of the dead - unconscious, unaware, inactive.

Now, all of paganism worldwide maintained the exact opposite view - that humans are merely 'souls trapped in physical bodies', that upon death the soul or conscious self-aware self-identity of the person 'escapes' and goes somewhere else. Either to roam the earth as a ghost or shade (shadow of it's former physical existence), or to 'the Otherworld'. That Otherworldly destination might be benevolent and beautiful, or terrible and painful, depending on the moral character of the individual and the decision of the gods. It might be a dreary, dark, place, like the Hades of the pagan Greeks, or it might be a happy bright place, like the Elysian Fields of the same Greeks. Whatever it was, whether among the Hindus, Buddhists, pagan Greeks, pagan Romans, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Celtic Druids, or whoever it was, one thing was common - the soul or 'real person' left the physical body and went somewhere to continue its existence. The only difference was the physical body was left behind.

That is paganism. And that is nowhere found taught in the Bible. The Bible teaching, being a revelation from God, is the opposite to the pagan myths.

Notice, the serpent told Eve 'you shall not die'. Pagan religion has been from the beginning the religion of the serpent, and the fundamental teaching of all pagan religions is the fundamental lie of the serpent - YOU don't really die, you just move on into another form. Your body might die, but YOU LIVE ON regardless.

The Bible however teaches the exact opposite: people really do DIE. Their soul does not 'live on'. The Bible hope for mankind is RESURRECTION. Pagans generally looked forward to a future state of happiness in an disembodied state. God's people looked forward to a resurrection of the body, whereby the person (soul) COMES BACK TO LIFE to live eternally (throughout the ages).

Esaias

12-02-2018, 07:24 PM

About dividing spirit and soul:

The WORD of God is capable of dividing the soul and spirit asunder in a spritual, theological sense, as when the unsaved SOUL confronts the Word of God and their results a conflict between what is now in their spirit and what is going on their LIFE (ie conviction).

If we take Paul's statement about dividing the soul and spirit asunder LITERALLY (ie physically) then we must also believe preaching the WORD will split people's bones and marrow apart...

...regardless of how high pitched some preachers get, it ain't gonna happen.

:icecream

1ofthechosen

12-02-2018, 07:26 PM

One's soul is one's person, one's life, one's existence as a living being.

I seen that in the meaning of Nephesh also. So basically when Trinitatarians say GOD IS 3 person's they basically are saying He has 3 souls?

1ofthechosen

12-02-2018, 07:28 PM

About dividing spirit and soul:

Lol that statement was a classic.

Esaias

12-02-2018, 07:34 PM

I seen that in the meaning of Nephesh also. So basically when Trinitatarians say GOD IS 3 person's they basically are saying He has 3 souls?

Who knows what trinitarians are saying? They don't even know themselves. lol

mfblume

12-02-2018, 08:02 PM

Let's stay in context:

2 Cor 5
vs 1 says we know that if our current, mortal body were destroyed it's okay, because we have another body made by God waiting for us.
vs 2 says believers "groan" in their current mortal bodies, earnestly desiring to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.

Agreed so far. The mortal body will be gone and the weakness that we have existing inside it causes us to groan. Something in us knows it's not fit for us.

vs 3 says "assuming we won't be found naked" when that happens. Nakedness here of course refers to moral nakedness, not being covered by the blood of Christ.

I do not see that. I believe it is speaking about the soul being naked outside the body since the body clothes us. This is not a moral nakedness, although we can see a thought there related to moral nakedness. But the body CLOTHES our souls, even if it's a mortal body. And leaving the body leaves our souls naked.
vs 4 says we are burdened, NOT DESIRING TO BE UNCLOTHED , that is, we do not desire to simply escape this mortal flesh body, but rather we desire and look forward to being clothed upon, by receiving the immortal resurrection body.

Agreed, which is why I stated the soul without the body is naked, since the body is meant as a clothing. We groan because of the burden of this mortal body, and we want to be in an immortal body, not just outside the mortal body to remain "naked".

"That mortality might be swallowed up by life" is an undeniable reference to resurrection, see 1 Cor 15:54.

Amen.

vs 5 says God has fashioned us for this very thing (to receive a glorified immortal resurrection body) and has given us the Spirit as a down payment and as a good faith deposit towards this destiny.
Amen.

vs 6 through 9 contain the "absent from the body" language under dispute.
vs 10 says we must all appear before the judgment seat to be judged. It also says this appearing is so each may receive the things done in his body, whether good or bad.

We are judged for the deeds while done in this mortal body in which we receive testing due to the temptations the mortal body is susceptible to. So, we deny the flesh, and believe God for the strength of the Spirit upon us to resist fleshly urges. The mortal body houses sin, and the immortal will be free of such a thing. We're as we were in a cage with the lions of sin trapped with us, making us like Daniel. But as Daniel trusted God, and God shut the mouths of the lions, this force of sin is weakened to not work so long as we walk after the Spirit. Anyway...

Done and his are in italics, not present in the Greek, so literally may be read as "receive the things in body", in other words, may be judged in the body. This makes sense considering the judgment takes place at the resurrection, not before.

Here is where I believe you enter supposition. Not sure how it weighs out in the overall context and issue at hand, but we'll see as I read on in your thoughts.

The literal translation by Young reads as follows:

2Co 5:10.. for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one [u]may receive the things done through the body[u], in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil;..

DONE is in italics there.

So,the idea is we may receive the things through the body. Vincent expalins the Greek term s follows:

In the body (διά)
Lit., [i]through[/b]i the body as a medium.

So, it is not saying we will be judged in the body. It is saying we will be judged for issues THROUGH THE BODY, making the KJV addition of terms in italics correct. It is saying our judgment will concern things we committed THROUGH THE BODY, thereby separating the actual us from the body as well as indicating our judgment will be based on our lives's actions we committed through the medium of the body.

None of this changes anything about what I said about being absent from the body.

Now, if you are correct, you have some problems. Apostolic believers look forward to the resurrection, and are NOT looking forward to just leaving this body. Yet all who believe like you do in fact look forward to dying and flying away to heaven, the resurrection isn't really necessary for them.

Hold on, Hoss. Let me speak of my beliefs for myself. You jumped the gun and got my thoughts wrong. We are looking forward to getting out of this mortal body and into an immortal one that does not weigh us down. I do not even believe we will spend eternity in heaven, anyway. Heaven is where we go upon death in spirit and soul, and that renders our souls NAKED and without a body. We were meant to live in this earth and rule it in a physical body that would not die. Sin brought death, and it is not only spiritual death, although spiritual death is certainly involved. But it is also physical death. That is the reason the physical death of Jesus is associated with payment for our sins. The death that passed upon us all includes physical death and Jesus took that penalty as us in our places, so it would not be the end of our existence on earth.

Saints in heaven await the resurrection when we are once again clothed upon, but this time with a satisfying body that suits our purpose, as Paul referred to in 1 Cor 15 when he spoke of bodies being suited to the purpose of the creatures with which God made them. Our existence on earth requires an immortal body, and upon resurrection we return to earth to carry on in the kingdom that Adam abandoned, and robbed from all of us.

Heaven was not made for mankind. Psalm 115:16 says the heaven of heavens us the Lord's, but the earth was given to the children of men. That was stated long after God gave man dominion on the earth with no purpose of man dying physically until sin came along, and shows us Genesis 1 and man's dominion here is still the plan of God.

Those who think we simply die and go into heaven forever are the folks who need to realize there is no need for resurrection if that be the case. Bodies are made for EARTH ALONE. And that shows we shall return to Adam's prefall state of dominion over this earth and, as Adam initially was situated to enjoy, live forever in physical bodies to rule this world with God.

Secondly, if you go to heaven to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, then mortality has been swallowed up of life before the resurrection, contrary to every other scripture on the subject.

Not at all, because death is of the body, and the only way mortality can be swallowed up of life is for the BODY THAT DIED to come to life again. You're basing your assessment of my thoughts and their conclusions on something I do not believe, and perhaps you have missed the thought that man is intended to live on this earth forever.

Now, some come along and call this JW teaching, since the JWs teach 144,000 go to heaven while the rest stay on this world. That is not my believe at all. EVERYONE resurrects and returns to earth to remain on earth and rule it forever. NO ONE remains in heaven for eternity future.

Third, your belief implies the resurrection happens at death and does not involve any change to the original, mortal body.

That is absolutely wrong. Resurrection DOES NOT happen at death. My belief states that death occurs, and our souls leave our bodies to be absent form them, and go to be present with the Lord in Heaven. And Resurrection LATER occurs where our naked souls rejoin our clothing of bodies, but immortal ones this time. The mortal body CHANGES INTO an immortal one.

Why did you say I believe resurrection happens at death?

Fourth, I know you believe in a resurrection so you would object to number 3 above, but in this you are being inconsistent.

Not at all. Why? I already said that my belief DOES NOT propose a waiting to go to heaven alone, without any need for the resurrection because, as I have shown, I do not believe heaven is our final destination, but only a temporary locale for our souls and spirits until the resurrection when things reconvene as God originally intended with Adam in the earth.

Fifth, Paul never actually said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," as a declaration of fact, but instead as an attitude Christians have. "Willing to be" etc.
You bring a great point out here, but I do not think it changes anything. Willing to be means it shows our desire with what God has planned.

Just because Paul said willing to be, does not mean it will not happen. We groan in this mortal body, and rightly so because God has planned an immortal body to clothe us. That shows hope of man agrees with God's plans, for why else would he groan to be clothed upon with an immortal body while God has planned for us to experience that very thing if man's hopes were not necessarily, in this context, what God plans. I claim the same is the case for the willingness to be absent from the body. Since he already showed what we would rather have in groaning in mortal bodies, and wanting to be clothed upon with a body from heaven, why could not this be the case with Paul's desire to be absent from his body?

But Paul goes further than just saying that is his will, as though it may not be God's will. He says HE IS CONFIDENT to be absent from the body as well as being willing to be so.

When he said he is confident for this experience, it indicates he knows it will happen, which is much more than just wishing that would be the case one day.

continued...

mfblume

12-02-2018, 08:02 PM

...continued...

(2Co 5:8).. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So, Paul was both was confident to experience this as well as fully willing to do so.

In fact to prove he was confident he would be absent from the body, I point you to the term RATHER. He was confident and, RATHER, WILLING. The term RATHER tells us that both being confident he would be absent from his body and willing to be absent from the body is the true context to be understand from this verse, because RATHER puts more emphasis on the willing aspect moreso than the CONFIDENT aspect. One cannot be confident in something apart from what one is, RATHER, WILLING to experience, implying the focus of confidence was the same focus of willingness. And that is being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

JAMIESON, FAUSSET AND BROWN: willing — literally, “well content.” Translate also, “To go (literally, migrate) from our home in the body, and to come to our home with the Lord.” We should prefer to be found alive at the Lord’s coming, and to be clothed upon with our heavenly body (2Co_5:2-4). But feeling, as we do, the sojourn in the body to be a separation from our true home “with the Lord,” we prefer even dissolution by death, so that in the intermediate disembodied state we may go to be “with the Lord” (Php_1:23).

The intermediate naked state of the soul, being disembodied, is what happens at death before the Lord's coming. But we want the coming so that we ARE AGAIN CLOTHED as we should be, and in an immortal body more suited to the state of our purpose which is everlasting dominion ON THE EARTH.

Sixth, Paul says we are confident, knowing to be dwelling at home in your own country "in the body" is to be "dwelling abroad or sojourning from" the Lord. This language is peculiar, and does not mean being inside a body vs being in front of the Lord, but living at home in the body vs sojourning on a foreign pilgrimage.

No no no. He was confident to be absent fro the body one day and present with the Lord.

When you read AND in between the note of his confidence and his willingness, it indicates two concepts related to the single conclusion of being absent from the body. Scholars agree

JOHNSON: We are confident. In the face of every peril, because we know that death, an absence from the body, would be to be present with the Lord. Note here the doctrine of the immaterial nature of the human spirit. It puts aside the body to be clothed with a new garment. It is absent from the body but present with the Lord. The body is not essential to its conscious existence. It does not sleep because the body sleeps. To Paul, death meant to be present at once with Christ, leaving the body behind. He labored (2Co_5:9) so that, whether present in the body or absent from it, he might be accepted with Christ.

I think the idea is more correctly saying that Paul would rather be alive when Jesus comes, but he knew he would die and was saying he'd rather be absent from the body, even though it meant nakedness for the soul, than to remain in that body and continue to groan, knowing full well a second body would be granted later.

And when he spoke the next verse, and said he wanted to be accepted to the Lord whether he was absent from the Lord I(which would entail presence in the body) or present with the Lord (meaning absence from the body) -- or it could mean the reverse... whether absent from the body or present with the body, he wanted to be acceptable to the Lord.

(2Co 5:9).. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

And that would mean that Paul wanted to be stand holy despite the groanings of being in a body that is susceptible to temptations, because the next verse mentions judgment for things done in the body.

Seventh, Paul already said our confidence and desire is to receive the resurrection body (vs 1-4).

The confidence is in knowing he would be absent from the body as per context.

Therefore, his statement in vs 6-8 must not be taken to mean something opposite to what he said in vs 1-4. But that is what your position does, you have him in vs 6-8 saying we are confident and willing to fly away from our body at death to be with the Lord, when he just got done saying specifically we DO NOT DESIRE such a thing at all, but RATHER to receive the resurrection body.

Again you misrepresent me.

Paul's confidence in, and desire to, be absent from the body to be present with the Lord was speaking in reference to the groaning he experienced in his body, and the better situation of not being in it and weighted down by the groanings it caused. And if anybody groaned in his body it would be Paul. Compared to living in a mortal body that causes groanings, or living naked without a body, Paul would rather be naked and absent from the body in an unclothed state to be with the Lord. But since he already stated it's not a groaning to simply be OUT of the mortal body, but clothed upon with an immortal one, aside from merely comparing clothed in a mortal body but apart from the Lord, or being unclothed in nakedness of soul to be present with the Lord, not for the mere moment considering the ultimate goal of being clothed upon with immortal flesh, his ultimate goal was to be clothed upon in immortal flesh to rule this world with Jesus forevermore.'

So in effect, you totally missed my true thoughts by being unaware of my position off mans eternal destiny on this physical earth following the resurrection, though I think you may recall I laid out this belief before on the forum months ago.

Eighth, the Bible teaches the spirit leaves the body at death and returns to God, which is nothing at all different than what Pail says in vs 6-8. Paul is explicitly affirming the truth of Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Amen! But that INCLUDES THE SOUL. He is actually saying ore than Ecclesiastes did.

Ninth, the spirit returning to God, and the body returning to the earth, is called "death" and according to Scripture the dead do not have consciousness.

I absolutely disagree with you here.

Your view contradicts the Scripture's descriptions of the dead and would have Paul doing likewise, when in fact he is affirming the truth of Scripture that immortality is fully received in resurrection, not death.

You must validate your claim that scripture defines death is what you say. Not just say it. I never said immortality is received at death and not resurrection. Paul here is ONLY talking about the BODY. He is saying DEATH is separate of the soul and spirit from the body to be present with the Lord in the case of a believer. And what dies is the BODY alone.

Tenth, if the dead continue after death with conscious awareness, they must have a body of some kind.

No. And why do you think that is a logical conclusion?

Only God can be a bodiless Spirit,

No. Paul said that our souls are NAKED without a body. And he was saying that because that is exactly what those who die before the second coming will experience, and verse 6 says he was confident in that fact. His confidence in verse 6 was not about resurrection, although he certainly was confident in that as well. But he was saying he was both confident and willing to experience absence from the body.

otherwise we are all omnipresent.

Why does being bodiless equate omnipresence? That is an illogical conclusion. Satan is a bodiless spirit. Prove he is not. Demons are bodiless spirits which is partly why they seek to possess people's bodies. Are they omnipresent?

So your view has people receiving an immortal body before the resurrection, contrary to Scripture.

Nonsense. I deny this totally, and it is not good form for you to claim I stand for something I explicitly deny, just because you lack awareness of my full beliefs on the issue and can only formerly conclude such a logical conclusion from one who believes what I do about verse 6.

Eleventh, if not, then people who have an immortal spirit body already are looking forward to getting a second immortal body at the resurrection. This is straight up Egyptian Book of the Dead mythology.
Again, you speak as though nakedness of the soul and spirit was not something Paul intended us to know shall happen upon death. Verse 3 agrees with verse 6 in the context I claim it is actually speaking.

Twelvth, nothing Paul said supports in anyway dead people being conscious, he said nothing about consciousness after death.

Again that is seriously wrong. Being absent from the body to be present with the Lord would never leave anyone thinking such a state is unconscious.

mfblume

12-02-2018, 08:09 PM

The soul is literally separated from spirit.

Oh, the assumption that goes on here is something else! lol

Paul compared the joints and marrow with soul and SPIRIT, indicating that as marrow is trapped within bone, spirit is within soul. Soul is like a hard shell and contains our spirits. It's like the temple's holiest of holies, inside and beyond the holy place, which both were in turn inside and beyond the outer court. Spirit - holiest. Soul - holy place. Body - outer court.

Check Chester Wright's teachings on this as well.

And the soul of a person is THE NATURAL LIFE as well as the conscious us. But natural inclinations can overcome our spirits without exercising our spirits in spiritual things. The natural element of soul is inclined toward the body, which is the avenue of physical discernment and can make our souls bent toward the physical . That tendency has to break like cracking the bone to release the marrow.

The natural soulish part of doing OUR WILL and OUR IDEAS must give way, or be broken, for the spirit within, the holiest of holies where Jesus indwells us as in the temple, can have HIS WAY through us. Our minds are meant to be vehicles for the mind of Christ. But being independent of Christ's will causes us to do our own will.s That's why even Jesus prayed not for his will but for the Father's will to be done.

mfblume

12-02-2018, 08:21 PM

The context of the dead knowing nothing is about goings on in earth. And those who sleep are seeing an emphasis on the BODY, not the soul.

James said the body without the spirit is dead. He was making a point about faith and works, but he used an already established and well known fact to make the point. That fact was the body is dead without the spirit. This means the element that is DEAD is BODY in that context.

I believe the human spirit is somewhat dead as well in other contexts of the issue, but not the ones listed in this thread. Our spirits are born of God's Spirit. How does that work for those who think the spirit is not anything more than whatever they claim it is? And a backslider can see his or her spirit die a SECOND TIME, which is what Jude meant about twice dead, and plucked up by the roots.

But since our spirits, not bodies or souls, are born again, as per Jesus, then the human spirit is something more than what folks are saying in this thread. The human spirit is the part of a human being that facilitates us with a spiritual consciousness. We are aware of the spiritual realm because we have spirits, just like our bodies cause us to be aware of the physical realm of earth. And that is the reason the dead know not anything. Death in the bible is defined as the spirit and soul leaving the body. The DEAD, therefore, in reference to PEOPLE are those whose bodies died and spirits and souls departed those bodies.

But the SOUL does not sleep.

Now, I am not saying the soul is immortal. I never said that. I believe the souls are immortal for believers. But I never made a claim about sinners. In fact, I DO NOT KNOW about sinners. I never put much thought into that, since it seems too impractical a study to engage in.

But in reference to the dead not knowing anything, that is in reference to what their bodies can tell them about earth, since the body is what causes us to be aware of the physical realm.

TyronePalmer

12-02-2018, 09:03 PM

Did Jesus "sleep" in death?

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

ALMOST all misunderstanding of this topic is related to this error. When immortal soul believers read verses like these, mentally they read it like this:

But now is CHRISTS BODY risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them DEAD BODIES that slept. For since by man came the DEATH OF THE BODY by man came also the resurrection of THE DEAD BODY.

When God is trying to teach them about death and resurrection they INSERT mentally that he is ONLY talking about death of the body. This is because their doctrine is that THE PERSON never dies. Only the body.

Therefore many verses where the Spirit is actually teaching us truth, they pervert by inserting their own doctrine into the text.

Thats how they can read the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, the place where there is more teaching about death and resurrection than anywhere else, like 50 some verses but ALL THEY SEE is the whole chapter ONLY speaks of the resurrection OF THE BODY.

Therefore the truth God is actually trying to teach bounces off of them.

And the error of those who believe in soul sleep is that they don't understand or believe what Jesus Christ Himself said! "Do not fear those who KILL THE BODY, but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL"

TyronePalmer

12-02-2018, 09:16 PM

If Solomon were the wisest man that ever lived would Jesus then come and contradict what he taught?

Ecc 9:10

The grave here is SHEOL in the Hebrew or HADES in the Greek. When one dies they go there. Nothing happens there. There is no knowledge or wisdom there. All are unconcious there until they AWAKE unto judgment.

Either Jesus agreed with Solomon or Solomon was not so wise after all.

Jesus didn't contradict Solomon, He gave more wisdom on the subject of death, Hell, soul, resurrection, etc... than Solomon did!

Soul sleep is error, I'll continue to believe what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said about the matter!

And really the point of all this in these last days is that people don't want to believe or practice the teachings of Jesus!

TyronePalmer

12-02-2018, 09:20 PM

Problem is that same verse that teaches the spirit goes back to God that gave it is teaching the spirits of ALL........not just the righteous goes back to God.

Ecc 12:5-7

5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Solomon makes no difference between the righteous and the wicked. God grants us life and takes it back. All of us.

Neither does the verse say anything about our spirits rejoicing in Heavens eternal life. No. Just that it returns to God.

Was Solomon wiser or greater than Jesus?

TyronePalmer

12-02-2018, 09:27 PM

What is Peter preaching about? The fact that a man/person Jesus was slain. That this same one that was slain was raised up from death. The point is NOT......that a body was slain and resurrected but a PERSON.

Note the words "he" and "him" and "whom". Peter speaks of the MAN Jesus who died and rose again not merely his body, as it were a distinct person from his soul.

Davids gift was here showing what CHRIST HIMSELF said. He said his flesh would rest in hope BECAUSE God would not leave his soul in SHEOL.

His soul was his person. His person was in Sheol. The place Solomon said there was nothing going on. No work, device, wisdom, or knowledge.

This is what immortal soul teaching confuses and obscures.

The PERSON Jesus had to die including his soul. If Jesus SOUL did not die it would have been a sure sign he was a false Messiah.

It was prophesied of the true Messiah, the lamb of God:

Isaiah 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

So Jesus being the true Messiah fulfilled the prophecy. His soul died.

Man is a soul.

Gen. 2:7

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When man dies his soul dies. When God breathed into his nostrils MAN became a living soul.

Just like you keep quoting and repeating the same scriptures Mike, I'll repeat the revelation I received from Heaven. Death means separation from God, the soul of Jesus did die because He was separated from the Father in Hell. But His soul did not die in the sense you believe it did, as in He slept, didn't know anything, didn't feel anything, wasn't conscious of anything etc....

TyronePalmer

12-02-2018, 09:36 PM

Immortal soul doctrine denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul said:

Immortal soul teaches that CHRIST......DID NOT DIE! They say ONLY HIS BODY DIED.

Immortal soul teaches THIS gospel:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ's body died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that IT was buried, and that IT rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This doctrine changes HE to IT.

So Isaiah prophesied that the lamb of God would give his SOUL an offering for sin and that he poured out his soul unto death, immortal soul heresy teaches his soul NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH!

So there is the perversion. Paul taught CHRIST DIED for our sins. Immortal soul teaches CHRIST NEVER DIED, only his body.[/QUOTE]

LOL! Soul sleep is heresy! Jesus did experience death in hell, and His soul felt the pain of it!

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 05:34 AM

Simple. The dead refers to the body.. Which is why we read absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

James 2:..26....For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

See? Exactly what I said. When they see "the dead" in their own mind they change it to the "dead body". Thats the only way they can keep this doctrine going. We all agree the body dies. The problem is they have as they see it THE REAL PERSON still alive.

Paul writes of THEM that are asleep. To me that sounds personal. It is PERSONS that sleep unless one would make a persons body ANOTHER PERSON from their soul!

When Paul teaches the saints:

1 Thess 4:13

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

His purpose is to comfort them. Now IF Paul is simply talking about their DEAD BODIES and not the PERSONS as this doctrine asserts consider this. Are the bereaved sorrowing because they miss their loved ones DEAD BODIES that are asleep? Or are they sorrowing because they miss the PERSONS that are asleep?

Also note if his teaching here is to comfort them concerning their dead loved ones, why does he NOT EVEN MENTION.......the fact they are actually in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now? What would be sorrowful about that?

Isn't that the entire point of their doctrine? And YET Paul never mentions the thing that modern Christianity puts its hope in once!

Verse 14

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Many readers miss Pauls first point here, that he is talking about the RESURRECTION. Our faith is that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN. Now when he proceeds by saying EVEN SO....meaning in like manner those who are ASLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.

So he is not talking at all about bringing live saints down from Heaven when he returns. No he is talking about the dead, sleeping saints raising up from the dead EVEN AS JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. For his next thought is exactly that.

Verses 15-16

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

He is not teaching them that living saints are going to come back down to the earth from Heaven but rather that the dead in Christ who are asleep are going to RISE.... FIRST.

After they rise, then they will meet the Lord Jesus first, before those who are alive and remain.

Verse 17.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrected saints after meeting with the "raptured saints" in the clouds will then all return to the earth together. So when Jesus returns to THE EARTH the saints who were asleep but are now alive again will be brought with him.

So amazing and consistent with the rest of Bible teaching about death and the afterlife, Paul says then, at the time this takes place we shall ever "be with" the Lord!

This absolutely contradicts the erroneous interpretation men try to force upon Pauls writing in 2 Cor 5:8 that as soon as we die THEN we are present with the Lord. Well if they are present with the Lord as soon as they die why does Paul say here at the resurrection of the dead we shall ever "be with the Lord"? Does not that mean they were NOT with the Lord before this event? Obviously.

Now let us examine perhaps the most striking blow to the doctrine of immortal soul possible.

Verse 18.

18Wherefore comfort one another with THESE words.

Pauls point was to comfort those who had loved ones that died. So he does this in verses 14-17.

The shocking thing is that NEVER ONCE does Paul give them comfort by saying its only their bodies that are dead! THEY THEMSELVES are actually alive right now with Jesus!

So when modern Preachers try to comfort saints by telling them their loved ones are now alive in Heaven "with the Lord" they are giving them a FALSE HOPE and comforting them with words that are DIFFERENT than the words Paul used to give them comfort.

So to be in agreement with the apostles doctrine given by Jesus Christ we only have authority to say the same thing Paul said in verses 14-17 when giving comfort to the bereaved.

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 06:35 AM

MBlume

But you can keep adding words that are not there to 2 cor 5.

The use of 2 Cor. 5:8 to prove men are alive with Jesus before the resurrection is perhaps the most OUT OF CONTEXT use of scripture in the Bible.

2 Cor. 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Dont forget Paul wrote the Corinthians earlier and taught them about this very thing. Out mortality being CLOTHED UPON with life. To be clothed with something, in this case immortality means to put it on. The same thing Paul says in his teaching about THE RESURRECTION.

At the RESURRECTION this corruptible will put on or be "clothed" with incorruption and our mortality be "clothed" with imortality.

1 Cor. 15:51-53

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when Paul is writing the 2nd epistle to Corinth it was not making void what he already taught them. It was in THAT CONTEXT the saints at Corinth understood Paul to be writing.

But when he writes about their "groaning" earnestly for their heavenly body is he not again referencing the resurrection?

Romans 8:22-23

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So Paul is teaching them about the resurrection day. The day we will get the NEW body he writes of. That is the context.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Here Paul is writing about being willing to be absent from the present body, our earthly home and being present with the Lord in the new.

How can we be sure he is NOT saying we will be with the Lord immediately on death and not rather when we are raised with a new body?

1 Thess. 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul plainly told the saints in Thessalonica they would ever be WITH THE LORD at the time he COMES!

Would he now contradict himself telling the saints at Corinth that THEY would be with Jesus when they die? Of course not!

Then Paul writes:

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Are we going to receive the greatest reward of all, eternal life...before the day of judgment? Go to Heaven at death and perhaps be there thousands of years BEFORE WE ARE EVER JUDGED?

No friends.Its obvious that forcing 2 Cor. 5:8 to say as soon as we die we are in Heaven is out of the context of Pauls point in the verses before and after. We cannot pull the verse out of context from those verses and invent a new doctrine as men have done.

One day there will be a reformation in whats now thought of as the Apostolic Church. This immortal soul doctrine will be judged as false, repented of and discarded and we will come into closer conformity to the foundation doctrine of Christ.

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 06:40 AM

Was Solomon wiser or greater than Jesus?

Absolutely!:highfive Jesus was the one who taught Solomon everything he knew!

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 07:03 AM

Jesus said in Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It appears Jesus saw the difference in body and soul and that the body could be killed but the soul would live.

God was manifest in the flesh and also possessed a body and soul just as a man would. However he died as a man that was cursed of God as a law breaker under the law. Galatians 3:13 "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." But when Christ's body was in the tomb his soul was descended into the lower parts of the earth, but was not left there.
His soul was active and led captivity captive. Unless one would believe the Spirit of God descended into the lower parts of the earth we must conclude that it was his human soul and yet his body was dead awaiting the Resurrection which took place three days later.
But concerning them that are asleep/dead in Christ under grace and not the law If Jesus' soul did not sleep even for the three days he was in the grave. Would our soul be active, alive, asleep, inactive where will our soul be? We will not descend into hell.

So what is the location of saved souls before the resurrection?

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 07:29 AM

Peter

Your soul (before Christ for sure) goes to Ades (ades is a place translated hell in English but is not hell!there was the soul of the reach man burned and suferd and the soul of Lazarus with Abraham too "23 And in hell(Ades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.")

Ok if what Jesus said about Abes Bosom concerns a state right after death how does it match up with Solomon said about the same place? Sheol/Hades.

Ecc 9:10

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The rich man was suffering and being tormented in a place where scripture says nothing happens?

Note that the Hebrew word translated here for GRAVE is the word "SHEOL" the same as in the Greek, "HADES".

Was Jesus the God who taught Solomon?

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 08:35 AM

Ok if what Jesus said about Abes Bosom concerns a state right after death how does it match up with Solomon said about the same place? Sheol/Hades.
some say this is a parable, Im not sure if it is or not. If not it is clear that the soul is judged at death in this case. If it is, it is still clear that this judgment happens at death and the event did not happen at the resurrection.
Ecc 9:10
The context of the scripture is living a fulfilled joyful life in this life. Solomon is not trying to give a description of the after life. His point is the things in the verses before verse 10 will not be possible when your dead.

The rich man was suffering and being tormented in a place where scripture says nothing happens?
Im not sure what your saying here. please clarify.
Note that the Hebrew word translated here for GRAVE is the word "SHEOL" the same as in the Greek, "HADES".

Was Jesus the God who taught Solomon?

.....behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 08:39 AM

Again is our soul as separate from our bodies as Jesus' was?
If so where does our soul go when our body is dead?

Esaias

12-03-2018, 09:40 AM

Again is our soul as separate from our bodies as Jesus' was?
If so where does our soul go when our body is dead?

You are still thinking of the soul as a "thing" that you "have", rather than as descriptive of what you are. "He lost his life."? OK, where did it go? Fell out of the pocket?

The ship sank, all souls were lost. Where'd they go?

The person goes to the grave, to Hades or Sheol, which is a descriptive term for describing the condition of being dead. Spirit goes back to God, body goes back to the earth, where does the person go? Well, we can say they too go into the heart of the earth (hades, the grave, Sheol) because at the funeral we buried their body. We might could even say they went to God, because their spirit did just that. We could also say they didn't go anywhere because technically "they" don't really exist except as a memory, because the PERSON is spirit and body joined together, which is no longer the case.

One thing we CANNOT say is they are currently experiencing anything approaching consciousness or sensory experience.

My posts on the previous page or two explain all this. Or, see the link in my signature to a thorough study on conditional immortality (not written by me).

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 10:20 AM

You are still thinking of the soul as a "thing" that you "have", rather than as descriptive of what you are. "He lost his life."? OK, where did it go? Fell out of the pocket?

The ship sank, all souls were lost. Where'd they go?

The person goes to the grave, to Hades or Sheol, which is a descriptive term for describing the condition of being dead. Spirit goes back to God, body goes back to the earth, where does the person go? Well, we can say they too go into the heart of the earth (hades, the grave, Sheol) because at the funeral we buried their body. We might could even say they went to God, because their spirit did just that. We could also say they didn't go anywhere because technically "they" don't really exist except as a memory, because the PERSON is spirit and body joined together, which is no longer the case.

So you would agree that a person has a spirit/soul that is not the flesh.

One thing we CANNOT say is they are currently experiencing anything approaching consciousness or sensory experience.

How do you explain the rich man and Laz?

My posts on the previous page or two explain all this. Or, see the link in my signature to a thorough study on conditional immortality (not written by me).?

Esaias

12-03-2018, 10:37 AM

?

How do you explain the rich man and Laz?

It's a parable, obviously. Interestingly, the rich man appears to be a reference to the high priest with his five brothers. The parable was given in response to the Pharisees mocking Jesus for his statement about not being able to serve both God and mammon.

But if one were to believe the parable were in fact a literal description of the intermediate state, one runs into numerous problems. For example, how is it the rich man is dead, and has left his body behind in the grave, yet has a tongue and is thirsting and wants Lazarus (another disembodied ghost) to use his finger to dip some water on the rich man's tongue? How is it the tormented and the comforted can see each other and communicate with each other? (What kind of peaceful heavenly rest is it to be within seeing and talking distance of people burning in hell, as they plead for you to help them?) Where's everyone else? Why was the rich mam buried, and not just his body, seeing as the beggar went to recline at Abraham's bosom (chest)? The language requires that the rich man was in a grave, not just his body. If literal, it seems rich people automatically burn in hell, and poor people get the good stuff after death (contrary to the whole concept of justification by faith). People who claim this parable as literal seem to reject it's obvious literal teaching, because I've yet to see anyone become and stay a homeless beggar to escape hell, nor do preachers use this to warn people against having money.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 10:46 AM

So you would agree that a person has a spirit/soul that is not the flesh.

You confound spirit with soul. Spirit is that which causes flesh to live, producing the soul. The soul is not a thing that floats away out of the body at death. And the man became a living soul, not "and a living soul came into the man." The catholic church teaches "soul" and "spirit" are basically synonymous, and refer to the non physical, conscious part of man, that leaves the body at death. This is pagan, and unscriptural. Scripturally, the flesh is joined with spirit, and the result is called "a soul". At death, the spirit returns to God, the flesh returns to the grave. The person (or "soul") is no longer alive. They are said to be "asleep" because death is temporary, they will "awake" (resurrect) to be judged.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 10:55 AM

Jesus said in Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It appears Jesus saw the difference in body and soul and that the body could be killed but the soul would live.

Jesus said BOTH body AND SOUL can be destroyed. He most certainly did NOT say the body can be killed but the soul lives on.

Men can kill the body, but there is hope, called the resurrection. But in GEHENNA (which is NOT the grave, NOT hades, NOT Sheol, NOT where you go if killed by mere men) GOD HIMSELF will destroy not only the body but the soul as well. Gehenna is a garbage dump, and is used as a metaphor or symbol of the Judgment of God. The final judgment results in the permanent destruction of the wicked, thus the body AND soul are destroyed.

Physical death is a temporary situation. A saint can be confident that if this body is destroyed, they have another they will receive in the resurrection. Thus, they shall live on forever. But those facing the wrath of God have no such hope, they will be destroyed in the judgment.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 11:01 AM

Esaias

12-03-2018, 11:25 AM

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says the manner we shall be with the Lord is via the resurrection. Therefore, there can be no literal "to be with the Lord" apart from resurrection. And therefore, Paul in 2 Corinthians cannot be saying he or anyone else will be "with the Lord" at death prior to the resurrection.

Paul is not describing an intermediate pre resurrection state in 2 Cor 5.

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 12:08 PM

Jesus said BOTH body AND SOUL can be destroyed. He most certainly did NOT say the body can be killed but the soul lives on.

Men can kill the body, but there is hope, called the resurrection. But in GEHENNA (which is NOT the grave, NOT hades, NOT Sheol, NOT where you go if killed by mere men) GOD HIMSELF will destroy not only the body but the soul as well. Gehenna is a garbage dump, and is used as a metaphor or symbol of the Judgment of God. The final judgment results in the permanent destruction of the wicked, thus the body AND soul are destroyed.

Physical death is a temporary situation. A saint can be confident that if this body is destroyed, they have another they will receive in the resurrection. Thus, they shall live on forever. But those facing the wrath of God have no such hope, they will be destroyed in the judgment.

It looks to me like Jesus' definition of soul and your definition of soul are different.
Your def says if the body dies the soul dies because the body and spirit make up the soul.
Jesus says that ones body dies but not necessarily the soul.
what Jesus calls the soul you call the spirit.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 01:05 PM

It looks to me like Jesus' definition of soul and your definition of soul are different.
Your def says if the body dies the soul dies because the body and spirit make up the soul.
Jesus says that ones body dies but not necessarily the soul.
what Jesus calls the soul you call the spirit.

Nope. :)

Jesus talked about killing or destroying the body and soul in Gehenna. That places an immediate and definite context on the discussion: the Judgment Day.

Again, a man may kill the body, but the soul is not lost, it can live again in the resurrection. But God can destroy, not just the body, but the soul, "in Gehenna". Gehenna is not Hades or Sheol, the grave. It is the burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem, used as a metaphor or symbol of the fiery judgment of God, aka the second death.

Further, all this proves the (more important) doctrine of conditional immortality: the wicked will not live forever anywhere, but will be utterly destroyed and will be no more.

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 02:32 PM

Souls being slain.

Joshua 10:28

28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:29-30

29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:31-32

31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

Joshua 10:34-35

34And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 35And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

Joshua 10-36-37

36And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: 37And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

The Israelites killed, or utterly destroyed many souls.

The Holy Spirit then INSPIRES the definition of SOULS in verse 40.

Joshua 10:40

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

He left no soul alive. They were defined as ALL THAT BREATHED.

And according to Mr. Strongs the primary definition of soul is "a breathing creature".

Apostolic1ness

12-03-2018, 02:58 PM

Souls being slain.

Joshua 10:28

Joshua 10:29-30

29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:31-32

31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

Joshua 10:34-35

34And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 35And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

Joshua 10-36-37

36And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: 37And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

The Israelites killed, or utterly destroyed many souls.

The Holy Spirit then INSPIRES the definition of SOULS in verse 40.

Joshua 10:40

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

He left no soul alive. They were defined as ALL THAT BREATHED.

And according to Mr. Strongs the primary definition of soul is "a breathing creature".

I believe soul in all these scriptures means simply "living being".

soul as defined by Webster is Definition of soul. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. 2a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe. b capitalized, Christian Science : god sense 1b.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 03:03 PM

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 03:09 PM

I believe soul in all these scriptures means simply "living being".

soul as defined by Webster is Definition of soul. (Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. 2a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe. b capitalized, Christian Science : god sense 1b.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

This is powerful truth.

It seems a person according to scripture can possess a soul and be a soul at the same time.
Gen 2:7..."be a soul"
3 John 1:2 "possessing a soul"

Esaias

12-03-2018, 03:10 PM

Esaias

12-03-2018, 03:22 PM

Heb 4:12

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

IMO "soul" in this verse speaks of the natural man as here:

1 Cor. 15:42-49

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Many times the soul simply refers to man himself which includes a body. Man also has a spirit. The word of God discerns where one starts and the other ends.

The same verse gives a parellism speaking of the joints and marrow (natural man, flesh) and thoughts and intents of the heart, (spirit", inner man).

I am thinking the Word being like a sword is a simile (or metaphor). And therefore "dividing asunder" is part of the metaphor/simile of the sword. A sharp two-edged sword can split joint and marrow apart. It can also "divide soul and spirit", that is, separate a living soul from its life-giving energy (spirit), or in simple terms, kill a man. That deadly efficiency is transferred to the rhema (Spirit-anointed prophetic preaching of the Gospel, see Eph 6:17) in that the rhema/logos can discern (or disclose) the thoughts and intents of the heart (1 Cor 14:24-25).

So I am saying the passage is NOT saying that "the Bible separates or distinguishes the soul from the spirit". Dividing of soul and spirit seems more a euphemism for taking a life, a function of a sharp sword, just like cleaving joints and marrow.

Which actually relates to the idea of God slaying enemies by His mouth, word, or sword that comes from His mouth, but that's another tangent.

mfblume

12-03-2018, 04:16 PM

See? Exactly what I said. When they see "the dead" in their own mind they change it to the "dead body". Thats the only way they can keep this doctrine going. We all agree the body dies. The problem is they have as they see it THE REAL PERSON still alive.

Paul writes of THEM that are asleep. To me that sounds personal. It is PERSONS that sleep unless one would make a persons body ANOTHER PERSON from their soul!

When Paul teaches the saints:

1 Thess 4:13

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

His purpose is to comfort them. Now IF Paul is simply talking about their DEAD BODIES and not the PERSONS as this doctrine asserts consider this. Are the bereaved sorrowing because they miss their loved ones DEAD BODIES that are asleep? Or are they sorrowing because they miss the PERSONS that are asleep?

Also note if his teaching here is to comfort them concerning their dead loved ones, why does he NOT EVEN MENTION.......the fact they are actually in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now? What would be sorrowful about that?

Isn't that the entire point of their doctrine? And YET Paul never mentions the thing that modern Christianity puts its hope in once!

Verse 14

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Many readers miss Pauls first point here, that he is talking about the RESURRECTION. Our faith is that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN. Now when he proceeds by saying EVEN SO....meaning in like manner those who are ASLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.

So he is not talking at all about bringing live saints down from Heaven when he returns. No he is talking about the dead, sleeping saints raising up from the dead EVEN AS JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. For his next thought is exactly that.

Verses 15-16

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

He is not teaching them that living saints are going to come back down to the earth from Heaven but rather that the dead in Christ who are asleep are going to RISE.... FIRST.

After they rise, then they will meet the Lord Jesus first, before those who are alive and remain.

Verse 17.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrected saints after meeting with the "raptured saints" in the clouds will then all return to the earth together. So when Jesus returns to THE EARTH the saints who were asleep but are now alive again will be brought with him.

So amazing and consistent with the rest of Bible teaching about death and the afterlife, Paul says then, at the time this takes place we shall ever "be with" the Lord!

This absolutely contradicts the erroneous interpretation men try to force upon Pauls writing in 2 Cor 5:8 that as soon as we die THEN we are present with the Lord. Well if they are present with the Lord as soon as they die why does Paul say here at the resurrection of the dead we shall ever "be with the Lord"? Does not that mean they were NOT with the Lord before this event? Obviously.

Now let us examine perhaps the most striking blow to the doctrine of immortal soul possible.

Verse 18.

18Wherefore comfort one another with THESE words.

Pauls point was to comfort those who had loved ones that died. So he does this in verses 14-17.

The shocking thing is that NEVER ONCE does Paul give them comfort by saying its only their bodies that are dead! THEY THEMSELVES are actually alive right now with Jesus!

So when modern Preachers try to comfort saints by telling them their loved ones are now alive in Heaven "with the Lord" they are giving them a FALSE HOPE and comforting them with words that are DIFFERENT than the words Paul used to give them comfort.

So to be in agreement with the apostles doctrine given by Jesus Christ we only have authority to say the same thing Paul said in verses 14-17 when giving comfort to the bereaved.

You did not even read what James wrote.

mfblume

12-03-2018, 04:19 PM

Brother Blume said: Paul's confidence in, and desire to, be absent from the body to be present with the Lord was speaking in reference to the groaning he experienced in his body, and the better situation of not being in it and weighted down by the groanings it caused.

So Paul said he groaned to be in the "intermediate naked state"? Yet he specifically wrote:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

He specifically stated we do not groan for the unclothed or naked intermediate state, but rather for the clothed resurrected state.

Please get the context of why I said that, which shows you did not read my whole posts. If we're not going to be thorough and responding to each other's post, then why even continue this? I distinctly made the disclaimer that compared to being in the body and groaning and being with Jesus, that was the issue. And I distinctly said the ultimate destination and desire was to be in a body. You completely glossed all over that distinction. This is what has always made this forum so frustrating.

mfblume

12-03-2018, 04:26 PM

You misrepresent me, Esaias .. Look what you conveniently left out.... In bold type....

Paul's confidence in, and desire to, be absent from the body to be present with the Lord was speaking in reference to the groaning he experienced in his body, and the better situation of not being in it and weighted down by the groanings it caused. And if anybody groaned in his body it would be Paul. Compared to living in a mortal body that causes groanings, or living naked without a body , Paul would rather be naked and absent from the body in an unclothed state to be with the Lord. But since he already stated it's not a groaning to simply be OUT of the mortal body, but clothed upon with an immortal one , aside from merely comparing clothed in a mortal body but apart from the Lord, or being unclothed in nakedness of soul to be present with the Lord, not for the mere moment considering the ultimate goal of being clothed upon with immortal flesh, his ultimate goal was to be clothed upon in immortal flesh to rule this world with Jesus forevermore.'

.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 06:55 PM

Please get the context of why I said that, which shows you did not read my whole posts. If we're not going to be thorough and responding to each other's post, then why even continue this? I distinctly made the disclaimer that compared to being in the body and groaning and being with Jesus, that was the issue. And I distinctly said the ultimate destination and desire was to be in a body. You completely glossed all over that distinction. This is what has always made this forum so frustrating.

No, I read the posts. But the part I quoted and commented on is a crystal clear highlight of the disjunction between what you say and what the apostle said. You specifically said he was groaning and wanting to be with Jesus in the context of the intermediate state, 180 degrees opposite to what Paul said.

That's why I zeroed in on that particular point, even though all my other points still stand. THAT one point puts your belief in clear relief, compared to the apostle's. The contrast could not be more marked.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 07:08 PM

You misrepresent me, Esaias .. Look what you conveniently left out.... In bold type....

Once again, you specifically said Paul is desiring to be unclothed! I mean you literally doubled down on it! lol

Sure Paul had other desires, goals, hopes, and aspirations. But when he says we groan, hope, wish etc NOT THAT WE WOULD BE IN AN UNCLOTHED CONDITION, and then you say "he wished to be in an unclothed condition", all your additional qualifications, addenda, etc are irrelevent. There is no way to make him say the opposite of his plain statement.

It is no different than when the baptist says "baptism does not save us", and you quote 1 Peter 3:21 to him, and he says "Well, yeah, but ABC XYZ PDQ and therefore we can say baptism does not save us." All the ABC XYZ PDQ is just so much theological white noise that need not even be bothered with.

When ANY doctrine or teaching makes a direct, 180 degree opposite statement to a plain statement of scripture, there is no need for further inquiry to see plainly the doctrine is WRONG. I am not glossing over and missing all the cool pieces of information that would convince any rational person that black is white, down is up, love is hate, or that Paul really truly did desire to enter a disembodied unclothed intermediate state (even just a wee bit, not his final goal, but still yes, even a teensy bit) in spite of his own protestation to the contrary.

As for blaming forums for people not agreeing with you, well, that's just lame. I mean, really? Disagreement must be because the offending party is either dumb or dishonest, intentionally ignoring all your great points just to avoid admitting you're right? Sorry you feel that way, but I'm reminded of the proverb about kitchens being uncomfortably hot?

Esaias

12-03-2018, 07:36 PM

Paul told the Thessalonians the manner in which we would be with the Lord was the resurrection. Therefore, desiring to be free of the current mortal body and to be with the Lord means desiring to experience the resurrection, not some intermediate disembodied state.

Paul specifically said the desire is to be free of this mortal tabernacle to be clothed in the immortal one, the resurrection body. He explicitly said it does NOT involve any desire to be unclothed or disembodied, a definite blow against pagan Greek concepts of the afterlife.

Paul spent a whole chapter (ch 15) of his FIRST epistle to the Corinthians explaining why death is no big deal. Not ONCE did he mention any intermediate state of being disembodied and floating up to Jesus, but instead it was ALL about resurrection. Then he LATER writes 2 Corinthians, and once again specifies the expectation is resurrection, specifically DENIES any hope of a disembodied intermediate state, and somehow this is all taken to mean we have a wonderful expectation of a disembodied intermediate state of being with the Lord?

Sorry, but that's not how sound doctrine works.

Esaias

12-03-2018, 07:46 PM

1 Corinthians 15:18 is an impossible statement if dead Christians live on and fly away to heaven to be with Jesus at death.

So is verse 32.

Paul said it is all POINTLESS apart from the resurrection. But if the immortal soul doctrine is true, then it is the resurrection which becomes essentially pointless! If Paul fought with wild beasts, what profit is it if all he gets is eternal happiness in heaven immediately upon death? Really?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS PREACHED BY IMMORTAL SOULISTS, "don't worry, it'll be worth it all, you'll step across Jordan and reach the other shore, see friends and relations who've gone before, you're just going over Jordan you're just going over home, going to see your mother, going to see your father, going to see Jesus, never more to roam" etc. Need I quote any more hymns?

Paul's belief, and the modern immortal soul belief, are completely different and at odds. So which belief is true? I'll place my bets on Paul's, others' mileage may vary.

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 08:00 PM

PREPARE FOR INCOMING TRUTH BOMB!

Esaias

Paul told the Thessalonians the manner in which we would be with the Lord was the resurrection. Therefore, desiring to be free of the current mortal body and to be with the lord means desiring to experience the resurrection, not some intermediate disembodied state.

Paul specifically said the desire is to be free of this mortal tabernacle to be clothed in the immortal one, the resurrection body. He explicitly said it does not involve any desire to be unclothed or disembodied, a definite blow against pagan Greek concepts of the afterlife.

Paul spent a whole chapter (ch 15) of his first epistle to the Corinthians explaining why death is no big deal. Not once did he mention any intermediate state of being disembodied and floating up to Jesus, but instead it was all about resurrection. Then he later writes 2 Corinthians, and once again specifies the expectation is resurrection, specifically denies any hope of a disembodied intermediate state, and somehow this is all taken to mean we have a wonderful expectation of a disembodied intermediate state of being with the Lord?

Sorry, but that's not how sound doctrine works.[/quote]

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 08:38 PM

Error in my post!

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer View Post
Was Solomon wiser or greater than Jesus?

I replied:

Absolutely! Jesus was the one who taught Solomon everything he knew!

I must have meant based on the next sentence to have said "Absolutely not"! Since Jesus not only inspired Solomon being the YAH of the Old Testament to write what he wrote, he was also his Creator.

So I was stunned when I looked at what I had written this morning. Wish there was an emotion for this post where I would be kicking myself!

Michael The Disciple

12-03-2018, 10:15 PM

Lets watch how this error works again.

Jesus in John 6:40

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Reading this verse should be very plain to understand when the saint receives everlasting life. At the last day.

To make it into something else one has to mentally insert into the text something like this.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise his DEAD BODY UP at the last day.

Now if anyone actually wrote the verse that way you would immediately catch the perversion of the verse. Or if someone quoted it as chapter and verse you would correct them.

Then why pray tell do we not catch the error when someone trys to explain the verse that very same way?

Jesus obviously is not just referring to raising up merely ones body in the verse but raising HIM....THE PERSON.

Again:

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Clear isn't it?

Jesus will raise up the MAN.....PERSON who comes to him at the LAST DAY.

Note Jesus did NOT say "I will raise up the mans DEAD BODY at the last day. Rather he would raise up the man, HIM at the last day.

Is there not a difference between raising up HIM and raising up his dead body?

If Christ is raising HIM up that means thats when he gains eternal life. At the resurrection. When men teach Jesus just meant he would raise the mans DEAD BODY at the last day they are insinuating that the PERSON was never dead at all! It changes Christ's meaning and confuses the hearer.

It leads saints to falsely believe the man who Christ says he will RAISE UP and give eternal life was never dead and already HAD ETERNAL LIFE! They say ONLY his body was dead!

If a Preacher would be preaching a sermon and misquote verse 44 there would be an awkward silence as disciples would realize he had quoted the verse wrong.

And YET....when explaining the MEANING of the verse thats exactly what they teach! And no one says a thing!

Esaias

12-03-2018, 10:42 PM

It leads saints to falsely believe the man who Christ says he will RAISE UP and give eternal life was never dead and already HAD ETERNAL LIFE! They say ONLY his body was dead!

Exactly. There's a song that says "You're already gonna live forever, don't you wanna know where?" Contrary to scripture, many believe they are already immortal, and the only thing to be determined is where they will "spend eternity". Yet, the Bible teaches immortality is a GIFT FROM GOD TO THE SAINTS not an inherent part of human nature.

Apostolic1ness

12-04-2018, 07:20 AM

So a person dies. The body is buried and their spirit returns to God. Then what?

Esaias

12-04-2018, 07:21 AM

So a person dies. The body is buried and their spirit returns to God. Then what?

We eat?

Apostolic1ness

12-04-2018, 07:26 AM

We eat?

sounds good to me.

Apostolic1ness

12-04-2018, 07:32 AM

We eat?

sounds good to me.

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 10:03 AM

So a person dies. The body is buried and their spirit returns to God. Then what?

"Sleep" until the resurrection.:highfive

Apostolic1ness

12-04-2018, 10:16 AM

"Sleep" until the resurrection.:highfive

So thats really my question if the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. Is the spirit "alive"? what is meant by "Sleep"

When Jesus was in the grave what was his spirit doing?

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 11:20 AM

So thats really my question if the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. Is the spirit "alive"? what is meant by "Sleep"

When Jesus was in the grave what was his spirit doing?

God breathed into man the breath of life and he became a living soul. Breath and spirit are the same word in Hebrew. When the spirit/breath goes back to God man ceases to exist. Thats what makes the doctrine of the resurrection so magnificent.

Jesus was dead when he was dead. "Sleep" is the Bible metaphor for being dead.

Apostolic1ness

12-04-2018, 12:18 PM

God breathed into man the breath of life and he became a living soul. Breath and spirit are the same word in Hebrew. When the spirit/breath goes back to God man ceases to exist. Thats what makes the doctrine of the resurrection so magnificent.

Jesus was dead when he was dead. "Sleep" is the Bible metaphor for being dead.

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth when he was dead. Is that not you understanding also.

Carl

12-04-2018, 02:26 PM

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth when he was dead. Is that not you understanding also.

David also wrote in Psalms 139 that he, David, was wrought in the lowest part of the earth.

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 04:19 PM

David also wrote in Psalms 139 that he, David, was wrought in the lowest part of the earth.

Amen!

Psalms 139:15

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 05:30 PM

Part 1

These verses dont say what the immortal soul doctrine tries to force on them.

Ephesians 4

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Verse 8 is often misquoted as "he set the captives free". Yet the verse says nothing of the sort. It says he led captivity CAPTIVE.

First they make a parable Christ told about the judgment into an intermediate holding place for the dead.....who are very much alive...in Abes Bosom. They call it "Paradise".

So all the righteous dead before Christ came are said to have been there in peace and joy with Father Abe. Sounds like it would have been a great place to be!

Problem is Paul says Jesus led CAPTIVITY......CAPTIVE!

So actually now the doctrine must be switched. The dead, who were actually alive were being HELD AS CAPTIVES IN PARADISE!

So if they were in bliss and happiness why does Paul say they were being held as captives? Can you be captured by someone and held against your will and be considered living in Paradise?

So what was the captivity Paul said Jesus took captive?

Isaiah 38:10-11

King Hezekiah said:

10I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

11I said, I shall not see the LORD, even the LORD, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world.

Verse 10 the word grave is rightly translated from the Hebrew "Sheol". Hezekiah knew where he was going at death. The grave and Sheol are the same.

Apparently he had never been told about when he went to Sheol he would be there with Abe and all the righteous that had died (but were really alive) as the immortal soul doctrine teaches.

How do we know?

Verse 11.

11I said, I shall not see the LORD, even the LORD, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world.

He never expected to see any man again. So no he knew nothing about this place of paradise where he would see Abraham.

Instead he expected to be a CAPTIVE TO DEATH.

He said he was going to the gates of THE GRAVE. That friends was his captivity.

Job understood the same thing.

Job 17:11-16

11My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.

12They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness.

13If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

14I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.

15And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?

16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job thought of the pit "SHEOL" as being a place with bars metaphorically. He never knew anything about dying and going to be in Paradise with Abe and the saints.

He thought he was going to a place with bars to keep him there. The key is where was this place? How did he perceive Sheol/Hades? A place of Paradise? Or a place of dust?

The answer verse 16.

16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Indeed the dust of the grave is what Job believed would be the bars that would hold him captive at death.

The people before Christs coming never thought of themselves going to Paradise with Abe at their death.

They believed at death they would descend to Sheol a place of DUST where they would be held by its bars and gates.

Psalm 9:13

Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

The Psalmist wanted to be saved from the gates of DEATH.

So hopefully we can now understand the CAPTIVITY that Jesus led CAPTIVE. It was not that a multitude of dead people (who were really alive) were in Paradise with Abe, even tho somehow they were CAPTIVES there.

If you were in bliss with Abraham and the saints would that seem like CAPTIVITY to you?

End Part 1

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 06:33 PM

Part 2

Jesus led captivity captive. We have seen the Old Testament saints metaphorically believed their death would be like captivity. They would be held captive there.

How did Jesus take captivity captive?

Heb. 2:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Paul said the devil had the power of death. Death came from man, Adam doing the will of the devil. He held that over man for many generations. They would all die because of him. All their lives they knew they would die one day.

That in itself was a form of bondage or captivity. Then the time would come it would actually happen. Their life, being mortal would be over.

BUT......then came the RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! The devil never dealt with this before. Jesus lived his life on Earth having NEVER ONCE done his will.

Jesus was not worthy of death. Nonetheless the devil was glad to use Judas to betray him unto the death. He could get rid of him and go about his business.

The adversary did not know the plan the Lord of glory was working. If he would he would have never used Judas and the princes of this world to crucify him!

The prophecy given to Eve was coming true. The serpent would bruise his heel and her seed would crush his head.

God raised Jesus from the dead! In that glorious moment the devil's victory of man (because all had sinned) was taken away from him.

He had metaphorically held the KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES.

Now those "keys" were taken away from him by JESUS CHRIST!

The captivity that Jesus captured were the keys to the GRAVES OF THE RIGHTEOUS!

Rev. 1:17

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus had died, not for his own sin but for ours! The devil thought it was all over. So much for Jesus! But since Jesus had never done the will of the devil, he had no power to hold him in Sheol, the grave.

When the resurrection took place Jesus took mans captivity captive. If he would trust Jesus by being born again or identifying with his death, burial, and resurrection he could be made IMMORTAL LIKE JESUS!

Jesus resurrection brought immortality to light.

2 Tim. 1:9-10

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

By his death and then resurrection Jesus proved death could be defeated. Men only had glimpses of this truth in the OT. Life after death had been foretold but never realized.

Now there was a man who had been awakened from the sleep of death.

1 Cor. 15:20-23

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus was the first to gain immortality. The saints also will receive it. Paul tells us exactly WHEN in verse 23.

AT HIS COMING. Until THEN the saints will continue to sleep.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not that man has an immortal soul.

Michael The Disciple

12-04-2018, 06:58 PM

Jesus has the KEYS to the gates of Hades/Sheol.

Matt. 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hell here is "Hades" the exact same thing as "Sheol" the grave. Before Jesus men had never prevailed over death. Its gates were locked and held by the devil.

When Jesus rose the keys to the gates of Hades became his. His people who have died and went to the grave now have HOPE they will live again, this time as immortal beings.

At the time of Jesus coming he will use those KEYS to unlock the graves of those who died in Christ.

At this moment in the NATURAL it looks like Hades is prevailing over the saints. All the dead in Christ are THERE at this moment.

Yet look what happens at the coming of Jesus Christ and the resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:50-55

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Let these verses sink in for a minute and THEN GO BACK TO VERSE 55.

The Greek word for grave there is actually HADES.

You see what the verse is saying? UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD which occurs at Christs second coming HADES has the victory over the saints. READ IT AGAIN.

So when Jesus said the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church THIS IS WHAT HE MEANT!

He would conquer the gates of hades/death at his coming.....not at the individual Christians death.

Esaias

12-05-2018, 10:02 AM

The Bible goes on and on and on about the resurrection. Immortal soulists go on and on and on about dying and going to heaven.

Seems to be a discrepancy there somewhere...

mfblume

12-08-2018, 09:43 AM

No, I read the posts. But the part I quoted and commented on is a crystal clear highlight of the disjunction between what you say and what the apostle said. You specifically said he was groaning and wanting to be with Jesus in the context of the intermediate state, 180 degrees opposite to what Paul said.

That's why I zeroed in on that particular point, even though all my other points still stand. THAT one point puts your belief in clear relief, compared to the apostle's. The contrast could not be more marked.

No. I clarify my point and you still deny what I said. I am explaining what I said and what I meant. I'm not lying about what I meant or said.

Here it is again.

The overall point is groaning to be out of a body of mortality and in an immortal one.

After that, he talks about what is better between staying in the mortal body or leaving it into a naked state of being out of a body and with with Jesus. Of course between those two options the better is to be with Jesus. But that's not the reason for the groaning.

Are you gong to continue to refuse my explanation now?

mfblume

12-08-2018, 10:46 AM

Soul Sleep is False Doctrine

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Paul stated that aside from the body of mortality we currently indwell, there is a body not of this world. It is a spiritual body as indicated in 1 Cor 15. And we desire to exit this mortal body that causes groaning and discomfort to our spirits and souls, but not so that we will be without any body at all. We groan to have a body that is not mortal, but immortal.

The mortal body is temporary and that’s why Paul called it a tabernacle. But the body from heaven is not tabernacle. It would be more like a temple by comparison. The enternal aspect means it is immortal.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Being outside the mortal body and not indwelling an immortal body makes the spirit and soul naked. That is not a moral note, but simply speaking of soul and spirit not within a body.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul elaborates on what he just wrote, and says the groaning is due to being burdened. And it’s not a burden to be unclothed without any body whatsoever, though. Verses 2 and 3 both stress the desire to have an immortal body, and that we do not want to simply remain outside a body altogether just because the on in which we dell now is mortal and making us groan.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Here we read God created us to have an immortal body and not to indwell a mortal one that causes us to groan. This shows how our groaning matches the purpose of God, anyway.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Now Paul goes further and adds to this information tat indwelling our mortal bodies means that we are absent from the Lord. It is here that he introduces the sub-thought of a preference to be naked when restricting the choice between presence with the Lord, albeit absent from body, or remaining in a mortal body. I stress it is a sub-thought to contrast this lesser point from the overall point initially noted in verses 2 and 3.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

In versed 7, Paul throws in an interested note. We do not SEE the kind of body we shall have. We believe it will come, which is having faith instead of living by sight where we cannot believe in something unless we see something. Paul had faith we will leave this mortal body and enter an immortal one despite the fac that he could not see it.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As noted earlier, this is a sub-thought apart and distinct from the point noted in verses 2 and 3. Paul is now restricting his thoughts to a decision to decide between two OTHER choices apart from indwelling a mortal body and an immortal one. To be clear and plain, the overall goal is the indwelling of an immortal body instead of the current mortal bodies we now indwell. And the groaning in this mortal body is to escape it and instead indwell an immortal body. (I already made this plain but detractors insist I said otherwise.)

Upon having mentioned absence from the Lord when indwelling the current mortal body, Paul makes the sub-thought of a choice to be with the Lord and absent from the mortal body, or remain in the mortal body and be absent from the Lord. Absence from the Lord or absence from the mortal body. That is the contrast to be understood in verse 8, that is NOT to be confused with the overall contrast between indwelling a mortal body or an immortal body.

And the contrast here indicates what Esaias agreed was Paul’s DESIRE, Paul also noted it was something he insisted in confidence would actually happen. He was both confident in the idea that he would be absent from the mortal body and hopeful for such a state of being, not at all denying the ultimate and greater desire was to be in an immortal body for which our spirits and souls were created to indwell. However, comparing absence from the Lord and absence from the mortal body, Paul would rather be absent from the mortal body.

And absence from the mortal body as well as from the immortal body is nakedness of the soul and spirit.

What is also important to note in Paul’s words in this chapter is that he never says presence with the Lord and absence from the mortal body can only and will only be experienced with indwelling an immortal body. And because Paul’s sub-thought of contrasting absence from the Lord with absence from the mortal body, we know Paul was teaching that there will be a time for those who die before the Lord’s coming when they will be naked without an immortal or mortal body, and present with the Lord in heaven.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Here Paul continues this sub-thought, and continues to restrict the discussion from verse 8 to 9 about presence and absence initiated in verse 6. Verse 6 mentioned absence from the Lord while in a mortal body.. Again, note he did not say the alternative presence with the Lord demanded indwelling an immortal body. He simply said indwelling a mortal body is absence from the Lord, which inspired the sub-thought of comparing presence with the mortal body from presence with the Lord.

So, present or absent from the Lord, or from the mortal body, Paul wanted to be accepted of God. And this shows another sub-thought Paul introduces. Paul did this many times in his writings. It allowed him to cover many points all related to the other points.

continued...

mfblume

12-08-2018, 10:46 AM

Paul believed that we not only desire to be absent from the mortal body and indwelling an immortal body to escape the groaning we currently experience, but he introduced the idea that we shall be absent from the mortal body should we die before the Lord’s coming, and in a naked state of having no clothing of any body whatsoever, but yet present with the Lord in Heaven. I know this to be the case also because the Lord will not be in Heaven when He COMES in His second coming, where we meet him in the air. Being present with the Lord in Heaven is to be with Him before the second coming. To be present with the Lord at His coming is to be in an immortal body on that day, the ultimate desire noted before verse 6.

And the reason Paul spoke about acceptance of the Lord, whether present or absent from the Lord or mortal body, is because verse 10 explains we will be judged by the deeds done in our mortal bodies. It is in this time of groaning and housing inside our mortal tabernacles that we are tempted. And judgment rewards us accordingly to how we fared when faced with these temptations to sin. The devil uses fleshly appeals to encourage us to sin, and it is these mortal bodies that he appeals to with those fleshly temptations.

All in all, this proves I most certainly did not teach Paul desired to simply be out of the mortal body, without any inkling of a desire to be clothed in an immortal one. And I have shown the error of interpretation of verse 6’s use of the term confidence. Esaias, you emphasized what I said about Paul’s desire to be absent from the body and present with the Lord was a mere desire, implying it was not a fact to be realized. However, you failed in explaining the reference to his confidence in the same verse. Where your error stands is in misapplying the reference to Paul’s confidence in verse 6 to something apart from the same objective Paul claimed he desired to experience. The desire was to be absent from the mortal body and be present with the Lord, APART AND DISTINCT from the greater, and original truth of being absent from a mortal house and present with an immortal house. And I proved my point of the object of Paul’s confidence using Greek scholar’s explanations.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And apart from all the misrepresentation of my teachings, even after I clarified it and even patently denied the concept that Paul’s ultimate desire was not to be clothed in an immortal body, my teaching, as explained above, proposes that there is logic behind the idea of being absent from any body whatsoever and being present with the Lord in Heaven, while at the same time giving purpose to the resurrection of the physical body.

Esaias, I say this because you claimed that the teaching of being bodiless in heaven gives no rise for need of resurrection of the physical body. Your idea imoliez the question of why should there be a resurrection if one can be present with the Lord in heaven without any body whatsoever. But your question implies the ultimate goal of a believer is to simply be present with the Lord, which makes you insist soul sleep is true because you think we can only be present with the Lord in an immortal body.

Your missing link is believing the traditional error that we shall remain forever in eternity future in heaven. Had you known about my teaching that we shall not remain in heaven, but will live on the earth in immortal bodies that we will obtain at the resurrection, and we shall leave Heaven at that point, had we died before the Lord’s second coming, you would not make your accusation. You would not say there is no need for a resurrection if we can go to heaven and be with the Lord.

But since…

1. I believe we were not meant to remain in heaven forever after the second coming,
2. And believe we are to obtain our immortal bodies at the second coming, when those who died and went to heaven to be with Jesus outside any body whatsoever obtain their immortal bodies,
3. And we are to remain on earth and rule the earth for eternity future in immortal bodies…

…The accusation that there is no need for a resurrection if we can be with Jesus in heaven without a body is incorrect.

Here is what shall happen according to 2 Cor 5:

Those who die before the Lord’s coming do not experience a sleep of their souls, but leave their mortal bodies to be present with the Lord.

And these people are in a naked state of their souls and spirits before the coming of the Lord and they are in Heaven with Jesus.

Our souls and spirits are actually clothed with white robes of Christ’s righteousness, but that thought is distinct and totally apart from the concept Paul is explaining in 2 Cor 5 about clothing and nakedness in relation to bodies.

And when the second coming takes place, the souls and spirits of those who died and were present with Jesus in heaven shall first experience the indwelling of resurrection bodies that are heavenly and immortal. Then those alive in mortal body at the second coming shall experience a change of their mortal bodies into immortal ones. The mortality of their bodies is swallowed up in immortality, as these mortal bodies change into immortal ones. The departed saints’ bodies are changed to immortal ones, which gives rise to the truth that not all of us shall die physically, but all of us shall experience a physical change in the nature of our bodies from them being mortal to immortal.

And hear this clearly: There is no implication that being asleep with the Lord in duration of time that is not realized by those experiencing it since natural SLEEP in our current mortal bodies informs us that time passes as in a moment and we wake up as though time never occurred at all. That is blatantly incompetent insertion of thoughts that are not implied, and most of all, not stated anywhere in scripture in relation to the concept of what we shall experience after death. That concept is the result of forcing a belief into scripture demanding the thought be inserted between the lines, which is horrendous bible study manner.

References to the SLEEPING we experience at death are in reference to THE BODY, not the SOUL. And when we speak of death, the BODY dies, not the spirit and soul.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is the reason I mentioned James’ words. Without the human spirit, THE BODY (not the spirit) is dead. Death refers to the BODY. And SLEEP refers to the BODY. Not the soul. There is no soul sleep.

Never does the bible put the word “soul” beside the word “sleep” in its writings. Never. Soul-sleep is as unbiblical as the word trinity. And the SOUL that departs from the mortal body at death to be present in heaven with Jesus awaits the resurrection to indwell the immortal body, while the mortal body sleeps. It’s called a sleep, because when we currently sleep at night we shall wake up again. This picture is illustrating how the body will sleep and be inactive at death, but will get up again when it is changed into an immortal body. It is not talking about the soul whatsoever.

Esaias

12-08-2018, 07:22 PM

Wrong, Paul elsewhere identifies we are to be with the Lord in the resurrection, not prior. Therefore 2 Cor 5 is speaking of that event, not an intermediate state.

mfblume

12-08-2018, 07:40 PM

Wrong, Paul elsewhere identifies we are to be with the Lord in the resurrection, not prior. Therefore 2 Cor 5 is speaking of that event, not an intermediate state.

I exegeted the passage to show my position. But even if you disagree with my interpretation, the fact remains that my belief does have a valid point for the resurrection while at the same time Believing we shall be bodiless in heaven before the resurrection. Also, I proved I did not say the ultimate desire was to be bodiless and with the Lord.

Where does Paul say we're not with the Lord before the resurrection, except in speaking for those who will still be alive in mortal bodies when the Lord comes?

Michael The Disciple

12-08-2018, 08:42 PM

Wrong, Paul elsewhere identifies we are to be with the Lord in the resurrection, not prior. Therefore 2 Cor 5 is speaking of that event, not an intermediate state.

Like here in the wider context of the verses in question.

2 Cor. 4:13-14

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

mfblume

12-08-2018, 09:11 PM

Like here in the wider context of the verses in question.

2 Cor. 4:13-14

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
Presenting us in resurrection speaks of completion of redemption, having immortal body as well as soul and spirit. This does not exclude a presence with Jesus in glory before that. Eph 5 says we are presented to God upon Salvation when we are washed in baptism, long before the resurrection as well.

mfblume

12-08-2018, 09:13 PM

I only want truth. I'm not fighting for a belief just so I'm not wrong. If you can show me your belief in the word I'll accept it. But I can't see your thoughts there so far. But that was a good thought you had, Michael.

Michael The Disciple

12-08-2018, 09:19 PM

MBlume

Never does the bible put the word “soul” beside the word “sleep” in its writings. Never. Soul-sleep is as unbiblical as the word trinity. And the SOUL that departs from the mortal body at death to be present in heaven with Jesus awaits the resurrection to indwell the immortal body, while the mortal body sleeps. It’s called a sleep, because when we currently sleep at night we shall wake up again. This picture is illustrating how the body will sleep and be inactive at death, but will get up again when it is changed into an immortal body. It is not talking about the soul whatsoever.

The term soul sleep is used simply because the doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD, has been labeled as such. If one understands the soul as A PERSON the truth is revealed.

It is dead PERSONS that sleep.

Immortal soul doctrine teaches the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.....never died for our sins!

Shocking and unbelievable but true! They teach ONLY the body of Jesus died.

In so they deny the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The real Messiah or Christ is prophesied to experience the death of HIS SOUL. If Jesus soul never died HE WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.

No doubt many of them don't MEAN to deny the gospel but remember, many Trinitarians do not MEAN to deny the oneness of God.

As stated earlier the only way they can make this doctrine work is if they can get people to MENTALLY INSERT something into verses that is not there.

Take for instance the foundation doctrine of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Heb. 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

You will note what Paul DID write in verse 2. The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But immortal soul devotees MENTALLY INSERT something different. When they speak of this doctrine they almost always say "the resurrection of "THE BODY".

In doing so they switch the meaning from the dead, as in persons, to simply dead bodies.

This has been historically very effective for them. It blinds the disciple by inserting a thought into the doctrine of the resurrection that is NOWHERE in the text.

They wind up putting immortal soul as a foundation doctrine and demoting the true resurrection of the dead to only the body. So tho Paul says NOTHING in the foundation doctrine of Christ about souls going to Heaven at death they make this deception into the truth.

mfblume

12-08-2018, 09:48 PM

The term soul sleep is used simply because the doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD, has been labeled as such. If one understands the soul as A PERSON the truth is revealed.

It is dead PERSONS that sleep.

Immortal soul doctrine teaches the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.....never died for our sins!

Shocking and unbelievable but true! They teach ONLY the body of Jesus died.

In so they deny the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The real Messiah or Christ is prophesied to experience the death of HIS SOUL. If Jesus soul never died HE WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.

No doubt many of them don't MEAN to deny the gospel but remember, many Trinitarians do not MEAN to deny the oneness of God.

As stated earlier the only way they can make this doctrine work is if they can get people to MENTALLY INSERT something into verses that is not there.

Take for instance the foundation doctrine of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Heb. 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

You will note what Paul DID write in verse 2. The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But immortal soul devotees MENTALLY INSERT something different. When they speak of this doctrine they almost always say "the resurrection of "THE BODY".

In doing so they switch the meaning from the dead, as in persons, to simply dead bodies.

This has been historically very effective for them. It blinds the disciple by inserting a thought into the doctrine of the resurrection that is NOWHERE in the text.

They wind up putting immortal soul as a foundation doctrine and demoting the true resurrection of the dead to only the body. So tho Paul says NOTHING in the foundation doctrine of Christ about souls going to Heaven at death they make this deception into the truth.

I already quoted James in saying the body is "dead" without the spirit. James distinctly says the BODY and identifies that which died as the BODY in association with dead And I already quoted 2 Cor 5:8 to show souls do go to heaven without the body at death. You have to take my explanation and take the verse and show why I am wrong about it in order to convince me you are correct.

peter83

12-09-2018, 01:43 AM

Sorry but . Scripture says that the soul does dwon on "Hades" until judgement and the spirit goes back to God.
Also Jesus went on Hades.
we know from the story of the reach man and the poor Lazarus ,that both went to Hades. But Lazarus was with Abraham from the other side and the rich man was in a bad place .
After the resurrection (some people say) that the good place of Hades is now in the sky ,with God. I dont know that but have in mind:
A spirit or a soul or both if it is in the "sky" that does not mean resurrection. The Resurrection is when the spirit-soul and body are back to life!!!!!
Paul did not said "i just prefer to sleep" but ...

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
So Spirit goes to God that is why Apocalypses says to the dead saints :
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" :)
why? Because Jesus and the thief went to Hades. But not in the place of damnation ,instead they went down with Abraham and all the saint souls.
(Now there are 2 possibilities . One is that the souls are at Hades and the spirits back to God, or that after resurrection of Jesus the souls at Hades went up to God. So may be the paradise after Resurrection id up in the 3d sky.
Notice that God is not in any 3rd or 7nth sky atoll!!!!!! God is Above all skies!!!!!!!!

Michael The Disciple

12-09-2018, 06:48 AM

Peter

Paul did not said "i just prefer to sleep" but ...

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.

Well yes Paul said that but in the context of the epistle to those very same people just two chapters later he lets them know EXACTLY when he would be with the Lord.

Phil. 3:10-11

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

He tells those same people he is doing everything he does that he might attain to WHAT? Dying and going to Heaven? No.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not the resurrection of THE BODY.

HE HIMSELF.......the person Paul, did everything he did so HE could have part in the resurrection.

peter83

12-09-2018, 08:58 AM

Peter

Well yes Paul said that but in the context of the epistle to those very same people just two chapters later he lets them know EXACTLY when he would be with the Lord.

Phil. 3:10-11

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

He tells those same people he is doing everything he does that he might attain to WHAT? Dying and going to Heaven? No.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not the resurrection of THE BODY.

HE HIMSELF.......the person Paul, did everything he did so HE could have part in the resurrection.
yes resurrection is when the spirit ,soul and body come back to life.
You die and you go to the Lord or in the place of the dead souls. "Sleeping".
You are not at HEAVEN. until new earth and new heavens and until your soul connects with the new body nobody is in heaven>
God is not God of dead but of alive persons. :) (now how is this sleeping life you have until the judgment or resturaction i dont know but i know that is "which is far better" than be here on earth.

Notice also ,Jesus went and preached to the dead! 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
He preach to alive spirits!!!!
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Peace to you.

Esaias

12-09-2018, 12:24 PM

I already quoted James in saying the body is "dead" without the spirit. James distinctly says the BODY and identifies that which died as the BODY in association with dead And I already quoted 2 Cor 5:8 to show souls do go to heaven without the body at death. You have to take my explanation and take the verse and show why I am wrong about it in order to convince me you are correct.

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven. His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON. in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text. He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

Michael The Disciple

12-09-2018, 03:15 PM

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven. His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON. in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text. He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

This nails it:highfive

peter83

12-09-2018, 11:53 PM

Esaias

12-10-2018, 01:30 AM

I agree with all axceept one thing. When a man is born is a Living soul. So the body dies but the soul never dies, because is a living soul.
Until it comes to life again in Resurrection.

If it "comes to life again" then it must previously be dead. Man became a living soul as a result of spirit joining to flesh. If spirit and flesh separates, then the person is no longer a "living soul".

Michael The Disciple

12-10-2018, 05:30 AM

I agree with all axceept one thing. When a man is born is a Living soul. So the body dies but the soul never dies, because is a living soul.
Until it comes to life again in Resurrection.

Was James an apostle? Can we learn from him? The brother of Jesus?

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately most "Jesus Name People" accept the paganistic Catholic doctrine of immortal soul over the words of the apostles.

peter83

12-10-2018, 07:40 AM

Was James an apostle? Can we learn from him? The brother of Jesus?

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately most "Jesus Name People" accept the paganistic Catholic doctrine of immortal soul over the words of the apostles.

I dont accept any paganistic catholic doctrine of immortal soul.
I say that the Bible says clear;y that when we die the body goes back to dust and the spirit back to God,
we dont know exactly if you still have memories of life or how it is. But we sure know there is a place for the dead souls. Jesus went there and preached to the dead!
Resurrection means when your spirit come back to the body. There you will face God.
the spirit is immortal ,never dies. even after judgment nobody goes to nothingness. All live in the lake of fire (that is death) a spirit out of body and long away from God (God is ;Life) :)
i hope you understand the difference of a Christian and a Catholic.i dont mean any purgatpry. neither any dpctrine, i just say we (you also) dont know for sure what and how death is.

Apostolic1ness

12-10-2018, 08:01 AM

peter83

12-10-2018, 08:14 AM

If it "comes to life again" then it must previously be dead. Man became a living soul as a result of spirit joining to flesh. If spirit and flesh separates, then the person is no longer a "living soul".

Yes the body is dust, and the soul? :) well we dont know exactly.
Live again means that the Soul be connected second time with your body. That is Resurrection. It is called "sleeping" too

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

some verses ,just for food of thought not as supporting one or the other opinion:
"in the flesh" mean to stay alive, the soul in the body. and the depsrure is when the soul leaves the body.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
19 By which also he went and preached [B][U]unto the spirits in prison
[I] 3 And the LORD said spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

mfblume

12-10-2018, 09:33 AM

mfblume

12-10-2018, 09:48 AM

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit. I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

And death for the soul is departure from the body. It is a matter of defining death. Is "death" separation? Separation of what from what?

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. Actually, the souls did not EXIST before the Spirit of God breathed in.

When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

If you're basin that on God breathing into Adam so Adam became a living soul, as if the soul is DEAD before the Spirit comes, then that does not follow through. The soul of Adam did not exist before the breath of God. To follow through correctly, you'd have to say the soul ceases to exist, if you're basing your conclusion of death o what state the soul had before Adam became a living one.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven.

No, because he does that in 2 Cor 5. The question in 1 Cor 15 was not what happens to the soul, but rather what body do the resurrected ones come in.

His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON.

That's what I stated, too. But it's not becuase there is no intermediate state. It's because the question was what body do resurrected saints come with.

in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

As I said, my view states that resurrection is for the purpose of coming BACK TO EARTH to rule as Adam intended Adam to begin with. We have to go back to God's purpose for Adam before the fall to understand the restoration that salvation brings. It's restoration.

Some think they get bodies as soon as they die and go to heaven in a body of some kind. That is rife with error. Where is the CHANGE of the same body that was sown into a body that is raised with immortal nature in that belief??

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

You raise a good point, but it does not exclude the point that there would be no resurrection if there was no hope. And if there was no hope of resurrrection, there would be no imtermediate state for the soul. The soul is only in this naked intermediate state because there shall be a resurrection. Ouor hope more fully than what you related is full restoration to what Adam had and was supposed to do before his fall. That is, exist in this world in an immortal body. RESTORATION is what salvation is about. That is why the term REDEMPTION comes into play. We go back to where we originally were, in God's will, and that initial will is the target, which is man ruling this world in a physical, immortal state. We cannot separate salvation from redemption to the original ownership of God for his original intent and purpose for man.

So, the hope of redemption is to return to earth and rule it in an immortal physical body as Adam once had. And to facilitate that for all believers, there is the coming of Christ at a specific general moment so those who died before that point in time are awaiting the resurrection. There would be no awaiting if there was no resurrection to indwell an immortal physical body, again because REDEMPTION is restoration.

What do you believe is man's destination? Do you not believe it is restoration to what Adam had on earth in dominion, and not an eternal existence in heaven instead in an immortal physical body? What is the immortal physical body for? Existence in Heaven?? If so, whatever happened to ruling the world as Dam was intended to do while in the world?

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text.

I disagree. I got my view from studying 2 Cor 5, not trying to force my view into it.

He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.[/q

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

mfblume

12-10-2018, 09:54 AM

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit. I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

And death for the soul is departure from the body. It is a matter of defining death. Is "death" separation? Separation of what from what?

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. Actually, the souls did not EXIST before the Spirit of God breathed in.

When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

If you're basing that on God breathing into Adam so Adam became a living soul, as if the soul is DEAD before the Spirit comes, then that does not follow through. The soul of Adam did not exist before the breath of God. To follow through correctly, you'd have to say the soul ceases to exist when we die, not sleeps, if you're basing your conclusion of death on what state the soul had before Adam became a living one.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven.

No, because he does that in 2 Cor 5. The question in 1 Cor 15 was not what happens to the soul, but rather what body do the resurrected ones come in.

His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON.

That's what I stated, too. But it's not because there is no intermediate state. It's because the question was what body do resurrected saints come with.

in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

As I said, my view states that resurrection is for the purpose of coming BACK TO EARTH to rule as Adam intended Adam to begin with. We have to go back to God's purpose for Adam before the fall to understand the restoration that salvation brings. It's restoration.

Some think they get bodies as soon as they die and go to heaven in a body of some kind. That is rife with error. Where is the CHANGE of the same body that was sown into a body that is raised with immortal nature in that belief??

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

You raise a good point, but it does not exclude the point that there would be no resurrection if there was no hope. And if there was no hope of resurrection, there would be no intermediate state for the soul. The soul is only in this naked intermediate state because there shall be a resurrection. hope more fully than what you related is full restoration to what Adam had and was supposed to do before his fall. That is, exist in this world in an immortal body. RESTORATION is what salvation is about. That is why the term REDEMPTION comes into play. We go back to where we originally were, in God's will, and that initial will is the target, which is man ruling this world in a physical, immortal state. We cannot separate salvation from redemption to the original ownership of God for his original intent and purpose for man.

So, the hope of redemption is to return to earth and rule it in an immortal physical body as Adam once had. And to facilitate that for all believers, there is the coming of Christ at a specific general moment so those who died before that point in time are awaiting the resurrection. There would be no awaiting if there was no resurrection to indwell an immortal physical body, again because REDEMPTION is restoration.

What do you believe is man's destination? Do you not believe it is restoration to what Adam had on earth in dominion, and not an eternal existence in heaven instead in an immortal physical body? What is the immortal physical body for? Existence in Heaven?? If so, whatever happened to ruling the world as Adam was intended to do while in the world?

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text.

I disagree. I got my view from studying 2 Cor 5, not trying to force my view into it.

He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

It is not a new subject. It is a sub-thought related to and adding more to the primary thought already stated.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere. verse 8.

WHAT ABOUT THIS>>>>

2Co_12:2.. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul did not know if he was out of the body and in the third heaven when he experienced what he did. If he did not know, then the idea of being outside the body IS NOT RULED OUT.

And as our brother indicated, this passage shows what you contend is not present.

Php 1:20.. According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death...
Php 1:21.. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain...
Php 1:22.. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not...
Php 1:23.. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:..
Php 1:24.. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you...
Php 1:25.. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abideand continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;..

This clearly shows Paul departing the body to be with Jesus.

peter83

12-10-2018, 10:36 AM

Before the resurrection of Jesus souls went to sheol/hades that He referred to as Abraham's bosom. Since the resurrection that is no longer true. Jesus raised those in Sheol/Hades into Heaven at His resurrection.

αmen! Do you know ,now for example ,when we die we go up? i mean can you explain me that brother?

Michael The Disciple

12-10-2018, 10:57 AM

MBlume

I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

I have never.....said the body does not die. If I have post the quote. Like Esaias pointed out we believe not JUST THE BODY DIES but the PERSON DIES.

You believe ONLY the body dies.

Esaias

12-10-2018, 01:38 PM

when Rachel died in Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...
In this scripture (soul) seems to carry a different definition than what some of you say it means, (body and spirit). It seems soul is defined here simply as her spirit. This is the definition used when people say the soul does not die. And others say when the body dies the soul dies. I think the scripture speaks of a soul as the individual (body and spirit) and as in this case speaks of the soul as the spirit only.

Literally, as her nephesh was going. Her life was departing. The word "soul" (nephesh, or psyche) has a range of meanings and uses. To say your life passed before eyes, does it mean a disembodied spirit traveled across your vision? Of course not, it's an idiom, or euphemism. If you lose your life, did a disembodied spirit get misplaced? Of course not. If your life departs, did it (your "life") literally move outside your body and go somewhere? Or did you simply die? That is, the condition or quality of being alive is said to have "departed", meaning it is no longer the case. If you "lost an opportunity" the opportunity is not a "thing" that literally got misplaced, it means the quality or condition of being opportune or fortuitous has ceased, is no longer the case.

mfblume

12-11-2018, 06:05 PM

I have never.....said the body does not die. If I have post the quote. Like Esaias pointed out we believe not JUST THE BODY DIES but the PERSON DIES.

You believe ONLY the body dies.

You never said once the body dies as far as I have read, until this post. Sorry for the confusion, but you kept avoiding saying the body dies, which made me think you denied that is the issue discussed in every case.

mfblume

12-11-2018, 06:07 PM

αmen! Do you know ,now for example ,when we die we go up? i mean can you explain me that brother?

Yes! Jesus took the saints in sheol/hades up to heaven, which is why we read that many of the saints that were dead were seen walking Jerusalem before they ascended. Heaven was sprinkled with blood for these and all of us, when Jesus also made atonement for us. Without atonement no one could enter heaven. He had to ascend and make atonement.

Michael The Disciple

12-11-2018, 09:20 PM

Esaias

12-12-2018, 12:56 AM

Yes! Jesus took the saints in sheol/hades up to heaven, which is why we read that many of the saints that were dead were seen walking Jerusalem before they ascended. Heaven was sprinkled with blood for these and all of us, when Jesus also made atonement for us. Without atonement no one could enter heaven. He had to ascend and make atonement.

That would mean they RESURRECTED and at best only proves resurrection. It would not prove any intermediate conscious state.

But if they were, in fact, resurrected to immortality, then that creates numerous additional problems. How is it they received immortality in resurrection PRIOR TO THE JUDGMENT? How did they receive resurrection into immortality PRIOR to Jesus' Ascension? Did they ascend before Jesus did? After His Ascension? Where does it say they ascended at all? As Michael pointed it, you say they ascended, yet a month later Peter says David is not yet ascended. So why was David left behind? Why were only some raised, and not all? Why did Paul say the dead would rise first and the living saints would meet them in resurrection? Yet you have resurrected (and ascended!) dead saints before Pentecost?

Why is there NOTHING elsewhere mentioned about these glorified resurrected saints? Paul seems utterly oblivious to their existence, as he repeatedly lays out his resurrection doctrine. In 1 Cor 15 he gives an outline that simply doesn't allow for a small batch of resurrected saints that supposedly rose at the same time as Jesus.

Meanwhile, here's this:

Later, I will put my thoughts into order, but for now, based on my research, I have concluded the following:

1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
2. John 3:13 was written to combat those same errors
3. Matt 27:51-53 itself was written to combat the Hymenaean and Thessalonian error
4. The errors mentioned in 1 are that the resurrection had either already happened, or had already commenced.
5. The errors mentioned in 1 were due to reports circulating among certain Jews concerning the event described in Matt 27:51-53
6. Matt wrote a description of the event using particular language in order to both address the error that had developed as well as to CORRECT the error that had developed
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

There are a few other considerations and points I intend to make as well, but those are the major ones. I also intend to demonstrate the wherefore's and why's of each point. I'm just a bit busy today and occupied with another subject.